Unschooling and earning money
Deborah McKee Kelly
Thanks to all who commented on my last post about my step-son, Julian, and
all our positive happenings.
I am poised to get Sandra's book, and may even share it with my MIL.
One topic I have not been able to find much info about has to do with kids'
needs/wants and earning money. Things I've read about the unschooling way
of life lead me to believe that the position of unschoolers on the topic of
*expecting* your children to earn money for some of their own activities /
items might be a no-no...I'm just guessing. It seems a bit like coercion to
say, "No, I'm not buying you that. If you want it, you must earn your own
money, or not have it."
The situation I find myself in has to do with my 14-year-old step-daughter,
who attends public school, but who lives in our house about 99% of the
time. As she gets older, her needs / wants are increasing. She wants to
attend school ball-games regularly, and school trips, and she is in a few
dance classes that offer lots of additional competition opportunities for a
fee, and she is wanting more clothing, and driver's education, and she wants
to go to movies, and buy birthday gifts for her friends, and wants her
horses trained, and wants riding lessons.... the list goes on.
I don't begrudge her any of this stuff. She's getting older, she has more
friends, she is learning what she enjoys and how she wants to spend her
time.
My problem is that we are on a pretty restricted budget (aren't we all?) --
and her dad and I, AND her bio-mom, are finding it harder and harder to keep
up with all her financial wants. I feel bad, because part of the reason we
can't afford to give her all this stuff that she wants is that her dad and I
have chosen a less-lucrative way of life and we have added two more kids to
our family in the past two years.
I think it's appropriate for us to buy her clothing (within reason, at an
agreed-upon dollar figure, perhaps), to pay for her monthly dance lessons,
to buy a certain dollar-figure's worth of hair products (she wants really
high-end hair products and stuff that I seriously have a hard time
justifying when we're buying off-brand everything and living hand-to-mouth),
etc. But if she wants to go beyond those things, I kind of feel like it
should be up to her to provide the difference. Example: I'm willing to pay
$3 for a big bottle of Suave shampoo -- if you want the salon stuff that
costs $10/bottle, you have to find a way to make up the difference.
Also, her grandmother used to always pitch in and get her stuff that we
either couldn't afford, or that we told her we'd like her to earn her own
money for -- so she's used to relying on that resource for stuff we can't
get her. But her grandmother has recently decided she can no longer keep up
with Caitlin's needs/wants, and she told Caitlin, "Your cousin (who is two
years younger) is earning her own money for horse lessons; you need to earn
your own money, too." We haven't given her such an ultimatum, but we're
talking about it amongst ourselves -- and trying to figure out how to handle
it.
Her dad has offered her opportunities to work for him on the farm and earn
decent wages. Granted, the money would still come from us, but if we paid
her, and she did the work we needed done, it benefits all of us -- she gets
the money we would otherwise have to pay to an outside employee. She
doesn't want to work for her dad, and she doesn't like farm labor -- which,
for me, is fine. It hurts her dad's feelings a little bit, but we both know
that this is our chosen work -- not hers. So, that's okay.
Her grandfather has offered her work to earn money at his wood-shop -- he
has a small wood business on the side, and seriously needs help. She
doesn't really want to do that either. Okay, no problem.
But we're stuck now, philosophically, I guess.
Her dad and I and her bio-mom were talking about this the other day -- what
is appropriate for us to fund, and what is appropriate for us to say, "We
really can't afford that, so if you want to do it, you'll have to come up
with the money." ?
And do we keep suggesting possible work ideas for her? There is a
convenience store in our teeny little town where she could probably get a
few hours after school and on the weekends. Do we suggest that, or that she
do something like babysit for local families? How much do we *help,* when
in reality it would be more like *forcing*?
She really balks at the idea of working at all.
It just seems really outside the realm of an unschooling, peaceful, "yes"
way of life to say, "Yeah, I know you want XYZ, but we aren't getting it for
you, so either you earn it yourself, or go without." Granted, we wouldn't
*say* it that way -- but the effect is the same. Especially when we know
she really does NOT want to work.
My parents had a different way of handling such things when I was young --
they never allowed me to work while I was a student. "School is your job,"
I was told. "You don't need the distraction of a job."
They also didn't provide me with opportunities to earn money at home, so --
I got what they provided me, which was a lot, but there was no choice, no
option, no freedom to try and earn something I really wanted. And if there
wasn't money for something I wanted, that was that.
To me, that seems a worse than offering the option of working and earning
some money and having the choice to say, "Well, my parents can only afford
for me to go to one dance competition a year, but I have earned enough to
pay the fees for two others that I really want to attend!"
I don't know. Any ideas?
Thanks.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
all our positive happenings.
I am poised to get Sandra's book, and may even share it with my MIL.
One topic I have not been able to find much info about has to do with kids'
needs/wants and earning money. Things I've read about the unschooling way
of life lead me to believe that the position of unschoolers on the topic of
*expecting* your children to earn money for some of their own activities /
items might be a no-no...I'm just guessing. It seems a bit like coercion to
say, "No, I'm not buying you that. If you want it, you must earn your own
money, or not have it."
The situation I find myself in has to do with my 14-year-old step-daughter,
who attends public school, but who lives in our house about 99% of the
time. As she gets older, her needs / wants are increasing. She wants to
attend school ball-games regularly, and school trips, and she is in a few
dance classes that offer lots of additional competition opportunities for a
fee, and she is wanting more clothing, and driver's education, and she wants
to go to movies, and buy birthday gifts for her friends, and wants her
horses trained, and wants riding lessons.... the list goes on.
I don't begrudge her any of this stuff. She's getting older, she has more
friends, she is learning what she enjoys and how she wants to spend her
time.
My problem is that we are on a pretty restricted budget (aren't we all?) --
and her dad and I, AND her bio-mom, are finding it harder and harder to keep
up with all her financial wants. I feel bad, because part of the reason we
can't afford to give her all this stuff that she wants is that her dad and I
have chosen a less-lucrative way of life and we have added two more kids to
our family in the past two years.
I think it's appropriate for us to buy her clothing (within reason, at an
agreed-upon dollar figure, perhaps), to pay for her monthly dance lessons,
to buy a certain dollar-figure's worth of hair products (she wants really
high-end hair products and stuff that I seriously have a hard time
justifying when we're buying off-brand everything and living hand-to-mouth),
etc. But if she wants to go beyond those things, I kind of feel like it
should be up to her to provide the difference. Example: I'm willing to pay
$3 for a big bottle of Suave shampoo -- if you want the salon stuff that
costs $10/bottle, you have to find a way to make up the difference.
Also, her grandmother used to always pitch in and get her stuff that we
either couldn't afford, or that we told her we'd like her to earn her own
money for -- so she's used to relying on that resource for stuff we can't
get her. But her grandmother has recently decided she can no longer keep up
with Caitlin's needs/wants, and she told Caitlin, "Your cousin (who is two
years younger) is earning her own money for horse lessons; you need to earn
your own money, too." We haven't given her such an ultimatum, but we're
talking about it amongst ourselves -- and trying to figure out how to handle
it.
Her dad has offered her opportunities to work for him on the farm and earn
decent wages. Granted, the money would still come from us, but if we paid
her, and she did the work we needed done, it benefits all of us -- she gets
the money we would otherwise have to pay to an outside employee. She
doesn't want to work for her dad, and she doesn't like farm labor -- which,
for me, is fine. It hurts her dad's feelings a little bit, but we both know
that this is our chosen work -- not hers. So, that's okay.
Her grandfather has offered her work to earn money at his wood-shop -- he
has a small wood business on the side, and seriously needs help. She
doesn't really want to do that either. Okay, no problem.
But we're stuck now, philosophically, I guess.
Her dad and I and her bio-mom were talking about this the other day -- what
is appropriate for us to fund, and what is appropriate for us to say, "We
really can't afford that, so if you want to do it, you'll have to come up
with the money." ?
And do we keep suggesting possible work ideas for her? There is a
convenience store in our teeny little town where she could probably get a
few hours after school and on the weekends. Do we suggest that, or that she
do something like babysit for local families? How much do we *help,* when
in reality it would be more like *forcing*?
She really balks at the idea of working at all.
It just seems really outside the realm of an unschooling, peaceful, "yes"
way of life to say, "Yeah, I know you want XYZ, but we aren't getting it for
you, so either you earn it yourself, or go without." Granted, we wouldn't
*say* it that way -- but the effect is the same. Especially when we know
she really does NOT want to work.
My parents had a different way of handling such things when I was young --
they never allowed me to work while I was a student. "School is your job,"
I was told. "You don't need the distraction of a job."
They also didn't provide me with opportunities to earn money at home, so --
I got what they provided me, which was a lot, but there was no choice, no
option, no freedom to try and earn something I really wanted. And if there
wasn't money for something I wanted, that was that.
To me, that seems a worse than offering the option of working and earning
some money and having the choice to say, "Well, my parents can only afford
for me to go to one dance competition a year, but I have earned enough to
pay the fees for two others that I really want to attend!"
I don't know. Any ideas?
Thanks.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hael
I hope to avoid this scenario with the younger kids, by the way, just simply by virtue of raising them in a more intact, unschooling household.
I fully believe that kids given what they really need emotionally, physically, etc. (kids who are secure) will 1) maybe not feel so needy of material things and (2) choose to work in ways that are fun/interesting for them. Money will be a secondary perk, and they will learn to use it as necessary.
In Caitlin's case, she hasn't been raised that way. She's had a lot of emotional upheaval in her life, and she tends to follow her bio-mom's example: *when you feel down about something, shop, or get new stuff any way you can (even if it means borrowing money you never intend to pay back).* I seriously don't think the younger kids are going to follow that example; Julian hasn't been around it as much, and our babies aren't going to experience that at all.
I guess maybe a better question would be -- since Caitlin is who she is and wants what she wants, and since she has been possibly missing something through her life -- do we just bite the financial bullet and get her anything and everything we really can that she wants? Even if it means not letting the younger kids have something (*can't afford guitar lessons for Julian because we're spending so much on his sister*)? Would that possibly help her feel not so "needy" in other ways and eventually result in her feeling more whole?
I will admit that I harbor a desire for her to change -- which I realize is not productive or good for any of us. I wish she didn't want the $10 bottle of shampoo and the $900 school trip to Washington, D.C., and the $100 competition fees every time a new dance competition pops up, and the $50 jeans from some brand-name store, and the trip to Orlando for the national dance competition. But she does want those things. Is that who she is? If she were my biological daughter, would I feel differently? Would I do anything in my power to help her have those things?
What is the right thing to do to support her emotionally? Will feeding her material desires feed her emotionally? Will asking her to get a job to help fulfill her wants somehow break her down emotionally? Will it make her feel less loved, less secure?
Communication on this topic with her is tricky. She's used to lectures from her dad and her mom, and she tends to tune us out -- I'd like to have an adult conversation with her. Do we show her our budget and have her try and help figure out where we fit in her needs / wants? I don't want to make her feel guilty.
So complicated, it seems.
And I wouldn't post it here -- I know our situation is a bit different than that of intact families -- but there may be people who are new to unschooling, whose kids are older and who may be facing the same or similar dilemmas. Hopefully our situation isn't too far off to be helpful to others.
I fully believe that kids given what they really need emotionally, physically, etc. (kids who are secure) will 1) maybe not feel so needy of material things and (2) choose to work in ways that are fun/interesting for them. Money will be a secondary perk, and they will learn to use it as necessary.
In Caitlin's case, she hasn't been raised that way. She's had a lot of emotional upheaval in her life, and she tends to follow her bio-mom's example: *when you feel down about something, shop, or get new stuff any way you can (even if it means borrowing money you never intend to pay back).* I seriously don't think the younger kids are going to follow that example; Julian hasn't been around it as much, and our babies aren't going to experience that at all.
I guess maybe a better question would be -- since Caitlin is who she is and wants what she wants, and since she has been possibly missing something through her life -- do we just bite the financial bullet and get her anything and everything we really can that she wants? Even if it means not letting the younger kids have something (*can't afford guitar lessons for Julian because we're spending so much on his sister*)? Would that possibly help her feel not so "needy" in other ways and eventually result in her feeling more whole?
I will admit that I harbor a desire for her to change -- which I realize is not productive or good for any of us. I wish she didn't want the $10 bottle of shampoo and the $900 school trip to Washington, D.C., and the $100 competition fees every time a new dance competition pops up, and the $50 jeans from some brand-name store, and the trip to Orlando for the national dance competition. But she does want those things. Is that who she is? If she were my biological daughter, would I feel differently? Would I do anything in my power to help her have those things?
What is the right thing to do to support her emotionally? Will feeding her material desires feed her emotionally? Will asking her to get a job to help fulfill her wants somehow break her down emotionally? Will it make her feel less loved, less secure?
Communication on this topic with her is tricky. She's used to lectures from her dad and her mom, and she tends to tune us out -- I'd like to have an adult conversation with her. Do we show her our budget and have her try and help figure out where we fit in her needs / wants? I don't want to make her feel guilty.
So complicated, it seems.
And I wouldn't post it here -- I know our situation is a bit different than that of intact families -- but there may be people who are new to unschooling, whose kids are older and who may be facing the same or similar dilemmas. Hopefully our situation isn't too far off to be helpful to others.
Hael
A couple of other points that have occurred to me as I've been searching old Always Learning posts for this topic:
Found this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/31161
And this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/40847, where Sandra says: "Even though we gave our kids free money, and we bought them things pretty freely as we could afford to, they've all been eager to have jobs and to have money, and they're all responsible with it. I think it's the withholding of money, and stinginess, and limitations, that make kids grasping and dishonest and sneaky and desperate."
I guess part of our problem here is that Caitlin has for many years been subject to the "withholding of money, and stinginess, and limitations." Not to mention guilt connected with money. And now, we've got a desperate, somewhat dishonest, sneaky, frustrated teen who has no interest in earning money for things.
Part of my interest now is how to support her, given that background, and also, how to change our money attitudes with the younger ones so we don't do the same thing to them.
As I read some of those old posts, too, I am much more aware of how manipulative my husband's family is and always has been with money.
For example, the cost of gas. I am always amazed at my husband's family (my MIL and FIL) by their intensely powerful reaction to the cost of "going somewhere for someone else." There is always this huffy sort of, well...if you expect me to come to your dance recital or take you to a dance lesson or drive you to ... XYZ ... how are you going to make it up to me? Gas ain't free! And my husband does it, too. It's one thing about him that I struggle with. Seriously, the cost of going somewhere is not THAT expensive. Even if, God forbid, we have to drive the pickup. :) Granted, we live out in the country, but I can think of a lot more expensive things out there -- not to mention the cost of our relationships.
When I was growing up, there was never any talk of how much it cost to transport me across town to my violin lessons or dance lessons or art lessons or school functions, etc. etc. etc. Granted, my parents had money -- I think -- and they NEVER would have made me feel guilty for taking me somewhere. They're still like that. They drive an hour each way regularly to see us, and never mention the cost. They drive halfway cross the country to help my brother and sister-in-law in times of need, and they never begrudge them the cost. My husband often marvels at this generosity of theirs, and I think it has had a positive effect on him. He's not there yet, but...it definitely makes him think.
There was a time, back when my husband and I first got together, that I suggested establishing a weekly allowance for the kids. He had a really hard time with this, and really wanted to control it. He wanted them to *save* 20 percent of every penny they got for allowance or from gifts or that they earned. He wanted to tell them what they could and couldn't do with the money -- if they had ideas about it, he would put a judgment on the anticipated expenditure. "You sure you want to waste it on that?" he'd say. Sigh.
Then, it became an ugly situation, where the kids were coming up to their dad and saying things like, "You haven't paid us our allowance for two weeks. You owe me $10." It became a demand, and my husband, who has, admittedly, mellowed out a lot in the past five years, pretty much said, "We're done. No more allowance. I don't owe you anything. You want money, you earn it."
Since then, we've tried several other things, mostly without a lot of success. There was the "working for the family" thing -- if each kid put in 7 hours of farm labor each week, then after the first 7 hours, they could start earning money at an agreed-upon rate. That got fairly ugly, too, which is a lot of the reason Caitlin has no interest in working for her dad. And I don't blame her.
I suggested to my hubby at one point that we give Caitlin (actually all the kids) a flat amount at the beginning of each month -- someone in one of those older threads suggested that -- and that she have the ability to use it as she wished. We'd pay for her dance lessons, her school lunches, her textbook fees, and an agreed-upon amount for clothing and "necessities" like toiletries, etc. Then her monthly amount (her allowance), not tied to any chores or work or anything, could be used as she wished for her stuff, no strings attached. If it was $25 and she knew she wanted to go to XYZ dance competition in three months, she'd have to save it for that, or earn a little extra on the side. My husband never really got on board with that idea. We never implemented it. Seems to me this would be the best way to do it -- but I think the work I have to do is with my husband first. Maybe if I could help him realize that this gas-for-driving thing is harmful -- he hates it when his parents get all huffy about it, but then he turns around and does it to his daughter...and if we could try a month or so without saying a word about how much it costs to drive anyone anywhere.
Money is a very stressful issue for him, and he was not raised with a lot of generosity.
Sorry I've been so wordy on this topic. I'm trying to do a lot of the work myself.
Found this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/31161
And this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/40847, where Sandra says: "Even though we gave our kids free money, and we bought them things pretty freely as we could afford to, they've all been eager to have jobs and to have money, and they're all responsible with it. I think it's the withholding of money, and stinginess, and limitations, that make kids grasping and dishonest and sneaky and desperate."
I guess part of our problem here is that Caitlin has for many years been subject to the "withholding of money, and stinginess, and limitations." Not to mention guilt connected with money. And now, we've got a desperate, somewhat dishonest, sneaky, frustrated teen who has no interest in earning money for things.
Part of my interest now is how to support her, given that background, and also, how to change our money attitudes with the younger ones so we don't do the same thing to them.
As I read some of those old posts, too, I am much more aware of how manipulative my husband's family is and always has been with money.
For example, the cost of gas. I am always amazed at my husband's family (my MIL and FIL) by their intensely powerful reaction to the cost of "going somewhere for someone else." There is always this huffy sort of, well...if you expect me to come to your dance recital or take you to a dance lesson or drive you to ... XYZ ... how are you going to make it up to me? Gas ain't free! And my husband does it, too. It's one thing about him that I struggle with. Seriously, the cost of going somewhere is not THAT expensive. Even if, God forbid, we have to drive the pickup. :) Granted, we live out in the country, but I can think of a lot more expensive things out there -- not to mention the cost of our relationships.
When I was growing up, there was never any talk of how much it cost to transport me across town to my violin lessons or dance lessons or art lessons or school functions, etc. etc. etc. Granted, my parents had money -- I think -- and they NEVER would have made me feel guilty for taking me somewhere. They're still like that. They drive an hour each way regularly to see us, and never mention the cost. They drive halfway cross the country to help my brother and sister-in-law in times of need, and they never begrudge them the cost. My husband often marvels at this generosity of theirs, and I think it has had a positive effect on him. He's not there yet, but...it definitely makes him think.
There was a time, back when my husband and I first got together, that I suggested establishing a weekly allowance for the kids. He had a really hard time with this, and really wanted to control it. He wanted them to *save* 20 percent of every penny they got for allowance or from gifts or that they earned. He wanted to tell them what they could and couldn't do with the money -- if they had ideas about it, he would put a judgment on the anticipated expenditure. "You sure you want to waste it on that?" he'd say. Sigh.
Then, it became an ugly situation, where the kids were coming up to their dad and saying things like, "You haven't paid us our allowance for two weeks. You owe me $10." It became a demand, and my husband, who has, admittedly, mellowed out a lot in the past five years, pretty much said, "We're done. No more allowance. I don't owe you anything. You want money, you earn it."
Since then, we've tried several other things, mostly without a lot of success. There was the "working for the family" thing -- if each kid put in 7 hours of farm labor each week, then after the first 7 hours, they could start earning money at an agreed-upon rate. That got fairly ugly, too, which is a lot of the reason Caitlin has no interest in working for her dad. And I don't blame her.
I suggested to my hubby at one point that we give Caitlin (actually all the kids) a flat amount at the beginning of each month -- someone in one of those older threads suggested that -- and that she have the ability to use it as she wished. We'd pay for her dance lessons, her school lunches, her textbook fees, and an agreed-upon amount for clothing and "necessities" like toiletries, etc. Then her monthly amount (her allowance), not tied to any chores or work or anything, could be used as she wished for her stuff, no strings attached. If it was $25 and she knew she wanted to go to XYZ dance competition in three months, she'd have to save it for that, or earn a little extra on the side. My husband never really got on board with that idea. We never implemented it. Seems to me this would be the best way to do it -- but I think the work I have to do is with my husband first. Maybe if I could help him realize that this gas-for-driving thing is harmful -- he hates it when his parents get all huffy about it, but then he turns around and does it to his daughter...and if we could try a month or so without saying a word about how much it costs to drive anyone anywhere.
Money is a very stressful issue for him, and he was not raised with a lot of generosity.
Sorry I've been so wordy on this topic. I'm trying to do a lot of the work myself.
Sandra Dodd
-=-The situation I find myself in has to do with my 14-year-old step-
daughter,
who attends public school, but who lives in our house about 99% of the
time-=-
Not all the principles of unschooling work in combination with
school. She has more outside influences than in, and if you open up
a conduit for money, it could all flow out.
Maybe ask her to use the expensive shampoo just on special occasions
or every other time.
-=- She wants to
attend school ball-games regularly, and school trips, and she is in a
few
dance classes that offer lots of additional competition opportunities
for a
fee-=-
I could cut out the games or the trips. "A few dance classes" with
lots of additional ... fees" sounds like a lot. Maybe she could pick
one class and its competitions instead of several. Or if that's her
main thing, dance, then you could think of it as educational expense
and not personal.
-=-and she is wanting more clothing, and driver's education, and she
wants
to go to movies, and buy birthday gifts for her friends,-=-
Driver's ed is definitely justifiable. It will save more money than
it costs, in insurance discounts alone (plus less likelihood of
property damage or injury).
Birthday gifts for friends would definitely be a "do it yourself"
thing here, unless it was a friend of the whole family or a party for
a young child. That's not an investment in your daughter's future.
Neither are too many, too expensive clothes, or movies. Sometimes,
but not every new movie.
On the other hand, if you were to invite kids over to watch a rented
DVD at your house, you might spend more on snacks then it would have
cost her to just go to a movie, so maybe factor in the alternative
that way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
daughter,
who attends public school, but who lives in our house about 99% of the
time-=-
Not all the principles of unschooling work in combination with
school. She has more outside influences than in, and if you open up
a conduit for money, it could all flow out.
Maybe ask her to use the expensive shampoo just on special occasions
or every other time.
-=- She wants to
attend school ball-games regularly, and school trips, and she is in a
few
dance classes that offer lots of additional competition opportunities
for a
fee-=-
I could cut out the games or the trips. "A few dance classes" with
lots of additional ... fees" sounds like a lot. Maybe she could pick
one class and its competitions instead of several. Or if that's her
main thing, dance, then you could think of it as educational expense
and not personal.
-=-and she is wanting more clothing, and driver's education, and she
wants
to go to movies, and buy birthday gifts for her friends,-=-
Driver's ed is definitely justifiable. It will save more money than
it costs, in insurance discounts alone (plus less likelihood of
property damage or injury).
Birthday gifts for friends would definitely be a "do it yourself"
thing here, unless it was a friend of the whole family or a party for
a young child. That's not an investment in your daughter's future.
Neither are too many, too expensive clothes, or movies. Sometimes,
but not every new movie.
On the other hand, if you were to invite kids over to watch a rented
DVD at your house, you might spend more on snacks then it would have
cost her to just go to a movie, so maybe factor in the alternative
that way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/13/2010 7:47 PM, Deborah McKee Kelly wrote:
least on the edge of thinking of unschooling as having rules. Watch out
for that way of thinking.
Try to find the bigger, more general, principles in what we're talking
about here and see if you can apply them to various situations. We don't
have a rule or an answer, even, for every situation that might arise.
So - money-earning as an example.....
Be real. If your kid wants something that you really can afford, don't
refuse to get it for them in order to force them to learn something by
having to earn the money themselves. Wouldn't you resent being treated
that way?
Be real. If you absolutely can't afford it, say so and offer to help him
find ways to earn the money. My friend helped her son collect
recyclables for months to earn him the money to buy an xbox. It was a
real need - she really did not have the money.
If it is in between, you could manage it, but it is a significant amount
of money out of your family budget, talk about that and decide together
if there is something you can give up to be able to afford this purchase.
If it is not just one big thing, but a frequent desire for lots of
smaller things, it can be unpleasant for parents to be constantly
telling a kid that something he wants to buy isn't worth the money, etc.
I really think giving the kid a lump sum amount of money to choose to
spend however he wants can help in this situation. It lets the parent be
more of an adviser and the kid gets to make the actual decision.
-pam
> I'm just guessing. It seems a bit like coercion toWithout even reading the rest of your post I want to say that you're at
> say, "No, I'm not buying you that. If you want it, you must earn your own
> money, or not have it."
least on the edge of thinking of unschooling as having rules. Watch out
for that way of thinking.
Try to find the bigger, more general, principles in what we're talking
about here and see if you can apply them to various situations. We don't
have a rule or an answer, even, for every situation that might arise.
So - money-earning as an example.....
Be real. If your kid wants something that you really can afford, don't
refuse to get it for them in order to force them to learn something by
having to earn the money themselves. Wouldn't you resent being treated
that way?
Be real. If you absolutely can't afford it, say so and offer to help him
find ways to earn the money. My friend helped her son collect
recyclables for months to earn him the money to buy an xbox. It was a
real need - she really did not have the money.
If it is in between, you could manage it, but it is a significant amount
of money out of your family budget, talk about that and decide together
if there is something you can give up to be able to afford this purchase.
If it is not just one big thing, but a frequent desire for lots of
smaller things, it can be unpleasant for parents to be constantly
telling a kid that something he wants to buy isn't worth the money, etc.
I really think giving the kid a lump sum amount of money to choose to
spend however he wants can help in this situation. It lets the parent be
more of an adviser and the kid gets to make the actual decision.
-pam
alexandriapalonia
One way you might approach this is with a line-item budget for each child (and maybe even an account for your step-daughter in particular), and say, "We've got $X per month that is available for hair care products/ birthday gifts/ clothing/ dance lessons/ horses/ competitions /whatever" and then let her decide how to budget that money to cover the things that are most important to her.
There are some very useful lessons in saving and budgeting and spending that lots of folks never have an opportunity to learn early on because they're never given the opportunity to make those choices for themselves.
We had a very tight budget when I was a kid, and my mother budgeted $X per month per kid for clothing. When I was 12, had hips, and suddenly my pants were $2X and not $X for two pair, I convinced her to a) allow me to add my own money (I made .50 an hour babysitting) to the amount and b) to let us do a roll-over, so that, saving the money from a month or two, I would have access to $2X or $3X in 60 or 90 days (which also made it so I could, for example, get a coat in the winter). She hadn't thought through either of those possibilities, but has always been a very reasonable woman, and agreed to both.
It strikes me that having the opportunity to save and budget (and add her money to the pot as well) might be a very powerful experience for your daughter.
Andrea
There are some very useful lessons in saving and budgeting and spending that lots of folks never have an opportunity to learn early on because they're never given the opportunity to make those choices for themselves.
We had a very tight budget when I was a kid, and my mother budgeted $X per month per kid for clothing. When I was 12, had hips, and suddenly my pants were $2X and not $X for two pair, I convinced her to a) allow me to add my own money (I made .50 an hour babysitting) to the amount and b) to let us do a roll-over, so that, saving the money from a month or two, I would have access to $2X or $3X in 60 or 90 days (which also made it so I could, for example, get a coat in the winter). She hadn't thought through either of those possibilities, but has always been a very reasonable woman, and agreed to both.
It strikes me that having the opportunity to save and budget (and add her money to the pot as well) might be a very powerful experience for your daughter.
Andrea
--- In [email protected], Deborah McKee Kelly <dlmckee@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks to all who commented on my last post about my step-son, Julian, and
> all our positive happenings.
>
> I am poised to get Sandra's book, and may even share it with my MIL.
>
> One topic I have not been able to find much info about has to do with kids'
> needs/wants and earning money. Things I've read about the unschooling way
> of life lead me to believe that the position of unschoolers on the topic of
> *expecting* your children to earn money for some of their own activities /
> items might be a no-no...I'm just guessing. It seems a bit like coercion to
> say, "No, I'm not buying you that. If you want it, you must earn your own
> money, or not have it."
>
> The situation I find myself in has to do with my 14-year-old step-daughter,
> who attends public school, but who lives in our house about 99% of the
> time. As she gets older, her needs / wants are increasing. She wants to
> attend school ball-games regularly, and school trips, and she is in a few
> dance classes that offer lots of additional competition opportunities for a
> fee, and she is wanting more clothing, and driver's education, and she wants
> to go to movies, and buy birthday gifts for her friends, and wants her
> horses trained, and wants riding lessons.... the list goes on.
>
> I don't begrudge her any of this stuff. She's getting older, she has more
> friends, she is learning what she enjoys and how she wants to spend her
> time.
>
> My problem is that we are on a pretty restricted budget (aren't we all?) --
> and her dad and I, AND her bio-mom, are finding it harder and harder to keep
> up with all her financial wants. I feel bad, because part of the reason we
> can't afford to give her all this stuff that she wants is that her dad and I
> have chosen a less-lucrative way of life and we have added two more kids to
> our family in the past two years.
>
> I think it's appropriate for us to buy her clothing (within reason, at an
> agreed-upon dollar figure, perhaps), to pay for her monthly dance lessons,
> to buy a certain dollar-figure's worth of hair products (she wants really
> high-end hair products and stuff that I seriously have a hard time
> justifying when we're buying off-brand everything and living hand-to-mouth),
> etc. But if she wants to go beyond those things, I kind of feel like it
> should be up to her to provide the difference. Example: I'm willing to pay
> $3 for a big bottle of Suave shampoo -- if you want the salon stuff that
> costs $10/bottle, you have to find a way to make up the difference.
>
> Also, her grandmother used to always pitch in and get her stuff that we
> either couldn't afford, or that we told her we'd like her to earn her own
> money for -- so she's used to relying on that resource for stuff we can't
> get her. But her grandmother has recently decided she can no longer keep up
> with Caitlin's needs/wants, and she told Caitlin, "Your cousin (who is two
> years younger) is earning her own money for horse lessons; you need to earn
> your own money, too." We haven't given her such an ultimatum, but we're
> talking about it amongst ourselves -- and trying to figure out how to handle
> it.
>
> Her dad has offered her opportunities to work for him on the farm and earn
> decent wages. Granted, the money would still come from us, but if we paid
> her, and she did the work we needed done, it benefits all of us -- she gets
> the money we would otherwise have to pay to an outside employee. She
> doesn't want to work for her dad, and she doesn't like farm labor -- which,
> for me, is fine. It hurts her dad's feelings a little bit, but we both know
> that this is our chosen work -- not hers. So, that's okay.
>
> Her grandfather has offered her work to earn money at his wood-shop -- he
> has a small wood business on the side, and seriously needs help. She
> doesn't really want to do that either. Okay, no problem.
>
> But we're stuck now, philosophically, I guess.
>
> Her dad and I and her bio-mom were talking about this the other day -- what
> is appropriate for us to fund, and what is appropriate for us to say, "We
> really can't afford that, so if you want to do it, you'll have to come up
> with the money." ?
>
> And do we keep suggesting possible work ideas for her? There is a
> convenience store in our teeny little town where she could probably get a
> few hours after school and on the weekends. Do we suggest that, or that she
> do something like babysit for local families? How much do we *help,* when
> in reality it would be more like *forcing*?
>
> She really balks at the idea of working at all.
>
> It just seems really outside the realm of an unschooling, peaceful, "yes"
> way of life to say, "Yeah, I know you want XYZ, but we aren't getting it for
> you, so either you earn it yourself, or go without." Granted, we wouldn't
> *say* it that way -- but the effect is the same. Especially when we know
> she really does NOT want to work.
>
> My parents had a different way of handling such things when I was young --
> they never allowed me to work while I was a student. "School is your job,"
> I was told. "You don't need the distraction of a job."
> They also didn't provide me with opportunities to earn money at home, so --
> I got what they provided me, which was a lot, but there was no choice, no
> option, no freedom to try and earn something I really wanted. And if there
> wasn't money for something I wanted, that was that.
>
> To me, that seems a worse than offering the option of working and earning
> some money and having the choice to say, "Well, my parents can only afford
> for me to go to one dance competition a year, but I have earned enough to
> pay the fees for two others that I really want to attend!"
>
> I don't know. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Deb
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/14/2010 11:47 AM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
cosmetics, etc., to your willingness to use the cheapo shampoo. Having
had three teenage girls, I've been there. But - if it something she
cares about and you don't, why shouldn't she get the higher end stuff
and you get the low-end stuff?
Again - get yourself out of feeling judgmental about her purchase
decisions by coming up with a lump sum amount of money that you really
can afford to spend and then let her make the choices. She'll be way
more willing to listen to your ideas and advice that way, too.
Do it for the extracurricular activities, too. Do it with her. We made a
list of all the things my 14 year old wanted to spend money on - buying
gifts for friends was up there at the top of the list and it had been a
touchy subject for us. I thought she was too extravagant and generous
with our money when she'd want to buy things for friends, but, on the
other hand, I loved it that she was so generous and thoughtful. We just
added a certain amount that seemed reasonable to both of us for her to
spend. Our first time doing this the list looked like this - it was for
a month:
clothing, jewelry, postage, gifts, entertainment, cosmetics, cd's.
I think that was it. We gave her $50 per month for all that. I continued
to buy underwear and any especially nice clothes she needed for
family-related occasions - weddings, for example. Otherwise, she got her
$50 per month (I think it was $40 when we started and we added a few
things to the list and raised it, over time) and she could spend it as
she wished. Sometimes she saved up, sometimes she borrowed against next
month's.
It made shopping together fun again because I could say, "Those pants
won't hold up to a lot of washing," without her feeling like arguing
because she really wanted them anyway. She could just say, "Oh, so what
if I hand wash them?" And I'd say, "That's what I'd do." ANd she could
decide if she wanted to buy pants that needed handwashing. She didn't
react to me being negative by thinking I was going to resent spending my
money on them since it was now her money.
You'd need to make your own list and then figure out what was a
reasonable amount to spend. Then just add it together and she gets to
spend the total however she wants - she can spend the whole thing on
cosmetics, if that's the trade-off she wants to make.
-pam
> If it is in between, you could manage it, but it is a significant amountAlso - try not to compare a 14 year old girl's desire for higher-end
> of money out of your family budget, talk about that and decide together
> if there is something you can give up to be able to afford this purchase.
cosmetics, etc., to your willingness to use the cheapo shampoo. Having
had three teenage girls, I've been there. But - if it something she
cares about and you don't, why shouldn't she get the higher end stuff
and you get the low-end stuff?
Again - get yourself out of feeling judgmental about her purchase
decisions by coming up with a lump sum amount of money that you really
can afford to spend and then let her make the choices. She'll be way
more willing to listen to your ideas and advice that way, too.
Do it for the extracurricular activities, too. Do it with her. We made a
list of all the things my 14 year old wanted to spend money on - buying
gifts for friends was up there at the top of the list and it had been a
touchy subject for us. I thought she was too extravagant and generous
with our money when she'd want to buy things for friends, but, on the
other hand, I loved it that she was so generous and thoughtful. We just
added a certain amount that seemed reasonable to both of us for her to
spend. Our first time doing this the list looked like this - it was for
a month:
clothing, jewelry, postage, gifts, entertainment, cosmetics, cd's.
I think that was it. We gave her $50 per month for all that. I continued
to buy underwear and any especially nice clothes she needed for
family-related occasions - weddings, for example. Otherwise, she got her
$50 per month (I think it was $40 when we started and we added a few
things to the list and raised it, over time) and she could spend it as
she wished. Sometimes she saved up, sometimes she borrowed against next
month's.
It made shopping together fun again because I could say, "Those pants
won't hold up to a lot of washing," without her feeling like arguing
because she really wanted them anyway. She could just say, "Oh, so what
if I hand wash them?" And I'd say, "That's what I'd do." ANd she could
decide if she wanted to buy pants that needed handwashing. She didn't
react to me being negative by thinking I was going to resent spending my
money on them since it was now her money.
You'd need to make your own list and then figure out what was a
reasonable amount to spend. Then just add it together and she gets to
spend the total however she wants - she can spend the whole thing on
cosmetics, if that's the trade-off she wants to make.
-pam
alexandriapalonia
We solved the allowance pay-out problem (we're not big cash people -- we'd often not have any at all to pay the allowance, and seldom at the right time) by doing direct deposit from our account to theirs. We seeded the first transaction with a year's worth of allowance to compensate for our earlier failure, and to give our then-10yo a meaningful amount of money to work with ($520).
If this is work that you'd pay an outside laborer to do, then it's work you don't demand the first day's worth of work be done, unpaid. (Or, at least, I hope you're not, since in that context it's criminal -- with your children it's still as morally bad . . . just not illegal).
Our now 14yo has, over the last four years, purchased a Nintendo DS, an MP3 player, an iPod, all the gifts she's given her friends (which we had been paying for, but she decided to take over at 11, as she felt they weren't really "from her" if we paid for them), lots of different kinds of clothes, hugely expensive makeup (which, frankly, I'd prefer she use the higher end stuff), a number of charitable contributions, and an assortment of other things. She's able to do this because she's in charge of a meaningful amount of money. If we were pressed into a narrower budget, we would do what I've suggested you try -- give the line item budget of her expenses over to her to make the choices within that budget.
I'd continue to drive her to the places she chose to use the monies, and I'd continue to help her plan (she asked me to be her nag when she was saving for the iPod -- my job was to say, "Are you sure [you want to buy that small item]? What about the iPod?" (That was, verbatim, the script she asked me to use). But she'd be in charge of a meaningfully large budget and would have the opportunity to make her own hard choices (or to seek gainful employment).
Andrea
>>> Since then, we've tried several other things, mostly without a lot of success. There was the "working for the family" thing -- if each kid put in 7 hours of farm labor each week, then after the first 7 hours, they could start earning money at an agreed-upon rate. That got fairly ugly, too, which is a lot of the reason Caitlin has no interest in working for her dad. And I don't blame her.I think you're wrong to do this.
If this is work that you'd pay an outside laborer to do, then it's work you don't demand the first day's worth of work be done, unpaid. (Or, at least, I hope you're not, since in that context it's criminal -- with your children it's still as morally bad . . . just not illegal).
>>> I suggested to my hubby at one point that we give Caitlin (actually all the kids) a flat amount at the beginning of each month -- someone in one of those older threads suggested that -- and that she have the ability to use it as she wished. We'd pay for her dance lessons, her school lunches, her textbook fees, and an agreed-upon amount for clothing and "necessities" like toiletries, etc. Then her monthly amount (her allowance), not tied to any chores or work or anything, could be used as she wished for her stuff, no strings attached.I'm suggesting something more comprehensive, that gives her a better and bigger opportunity to make decisions, budget, and understand money. I'd figure out the bigger picture (including the dance lessons, lunches, textbooks, clothing and toiletries) and let her cut the checks to the studio, make decisions about shampoo, and figure out how to save and budget for the horse lessons, competitions, etc. within a budget that suits your family. She might find she wants to forego new pants and instead enter a competition. She might decide to cut back dance and take horse riding . . . but she'd have the flexibility to make those decisions, and the responsibility for a much greater, meaningful, sum of money.
Our now 14yo has, over the last four years, purchased a Nintendo DS, an MP3 player, an iPod, all the gifts she's given her friends (which we had been paying for, but she decided to take over at 11, as she felt they weren't really "from her" if we paid for them), lots of different kinds of clothes, hugely expensive makeup (which, frankly, I'd prefer she use the higher end stuff), a number of charitable contributions, and an assortment of other things. She's able to do this because she's in charge of a meaningful amount of money. If we were pressed into a narrower budget, we would do what I've suggested you try -- give the line item budget of her expenses over to her to make the choices within that budget.
I'd continue to drive her to the places she chose to use the monies, and I'd continue to help her plan (she asked me to be her nag when she was saving for the iPod -- my job was to say, "Are you sure [you want to buy that small item]? What about the iPod?" (That was, verbatim, the script she asked me to use). But she'd be in charge of a meaningfully large budget and would have the opportunity to make her own hard choices (or to seek gainful employment).
Andrea
wtexans
===It seems a bit like coercion to say, "No, I'm not buying you that. If you want it, you must earn your own money, or not have it."===
If you say "I'm not buying that", that's different than saying "we cannot afford to buy that".
There are other options besides "yes, we'll buy it" and "no, we won't".
An allowance might be a good option. You three parents can determine how much you can pool together as a monthly allowance for her, then let her know which purchases you all will make for her and which she'll need to fund from her allowance.
It might be helpful to sit down with her and show her how to make a budget. Obviously she won't be able to fund everything she wants to out of her budget all at once, so that's when learning how to prioritize wants becomes important.
===And do we keep suggesting possible work ideas for her?===
What ideas has *she* suggested as ways to fund the things you all are unable to??? If she hasn't contributed any, definitely ask her to brainstorm with you.
===The situation I find myself in has to do with my 14-year-old step-daughter, who attends public school, but who lives in our house about 99% of the time.===
My experience as a stepmom of a (now grown) stepson who attended public school was that it was challenging to bring unschooling philosophies into play with my stepson. We could to some extent, but ultimately it just didn't fit comfortably because it wasn't a lifestyle in which he'd been raised. That doesn't mean we quit trying, but we just came to understand that it wouldn't be as seamless with him as it is with our son who has been unschooled for a great portion of his life.
You want to help her and support her however you can, but that doesn't equate to buying everything she asks for. Giving her an allowance can give her a sense of freedom and control that she may not currently have, but only if you give it without strings attached.
Glenda
If you say "I'm not buying that", that's different than saying "we cannot afford to buy that".
There are other options besides "yes, we'll buy it" and "no, we won't".
An allowance might be a good option. You three parents can determine how much you can pool together as a monthly allowance for her, then let her know which purchases you all will make for her and which she'll need to fund from her allowance.
It might be helpful to sit down with her and show her how to make a budget. Obviously she won't be able to fund everything she wants to out of her budget all at once, so that's when learning how to prioritize wants becomes important.
===And do we keep suggesting possible work ideas for her?===
What ideas has *she* suggested as ways to fund the things you all are unable to??? If she hasn't contributed any, definitely ask her to brainstorm with you.
===The situation I find myself in has to do with my 14-year-old step-daughter, who attends public school, but who lives in our house about 99% of the time.===
My experience as a stepmom of a (now grown) stepson who attended public school was that it was challenging to bring unschooling philosophies into play with my stepson. We could to some extent, but ultimately it just didn't fit comfortably because it wasn't a lifestyle in which he'd been raised. That doesn't mean we quit trying, but we just came to understand that it wouldn't be as seamless with him as it is with our son who has been unschooled for a great portion of his life.
You want to help her and support her however you can, but that doesn't equate to buying everything she asks for. Giving her an allowance can give her a sense of freedom and control that she may not currently have, but only if you give it without strings attached.
Glenda
Sandra Dodd
-=- Giving her an allowance can give her a sense of freedom and
control that she may not currently have, but only if you give it
without strings attached. -=-
Telling her she has to buy her own shampoo and clothes seems to be
strings attached. But this isn't a situation I've had to deal with,
older step children. It seems if she finally has some money and
spends it frivolously and then she doesn't get to go to dance class or
have shampoo, that's big strings attached. It seems late to start
with that.
Maybe the allowance could be for the movies and gifts for friends, but
not for horse/dance/toiletries, possibly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
control that she may not currently have, but only if you give it
without strings attached. -=-
Telling her she has to buy her own shampoo and clothes seems to be
strings attached. But this isn't a situation I've had to deal with,
older step children. It seems if she finally has some money and
spends it frivolously and then she doesn't get to go to dance class or
have shampoo, that's big strings attached. It seems late to start
with that.
Maybe the allowance could be for the movies and gifts for friends, but
not for horse/dance/toiletries, possibly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/15/2010 5:03 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
to. When Roya was 14, we started not having fun in stores because she
wanted to buy stuff that I thought was not worth the money. A really
good example would be the more high-end shampoos or some kind of fancy
facial soap. Stuff "I" would not buy for myself - I'd have to be a lot
more wealthy than I am now to spend my money on that kind of stuff
because, to me, it isn't worth it. I don't care enough about it and
would rather spend money on other things. So I wouldn't balk at buying a
new $5 puzzle she wanted, but I'd balk at $5 on shampoo.
When we gave her money to spend as she chose, SHE could decide between
the $5 puzzle and the $5 shampoo. It didn't seem like strings attached,
it seemed like more freedom to make her own choices. I could still say,
"You'll enjoy that puzzle a lot and you could just use the shampoo we
already have," but it was her choice.
This situation usually applied to clothing. She wanted to buy clothing
that was a fad, right now, or that wasn't "worth the money" in that it
wasn't well enough made to hold up to repeated washings. I didn't want
to spend the money, and we'd often end up with some hard feelings when I
resisted and she insisted. Giving her control over her own clothing
budget made all the difference in the world. She would cheerfully ask me
to go shopping with her and we'd have fun, whereas before we'd both
started dreading it.
-pa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Telling her she has to buy her own shampoo and clothes seems to beIn our case, it was not telling her she had to, it was saying she got
> strings attached.
to. When Roya was 14, we started not having fun in stores because she
wanted to buy stuff that I thought was not worth the money. A really
good example would be the more high-end shampoos or some kind of fancy
facial soap. Stuff "I" would not buy for myself - I'd have to be a lot
more wealthy than I am now to spend my money on that kind of stuff
because, to me, it isn't worth it. I don't care enough about it and
would rather spend money on other things. So I wouldn't balk at buying a
new $5 puzzle she wanted, but I'd balk at $5 on shampoo.
When we gave her money to spend as she chose, SHE could decide between
the $5 puzzle and the $5 shampoo. It didn't seem like strings attached,
it seemed like more freedom to make her own choices. I could still say,
"You'll enjoy that puzzle a lot and you could just use the shampoo we
already have," but it was her choice.
This situation usually applied to clothing. She wanted to buy clothing
that was a fad, right now, or that wasn't "worth the money" in that it
wasn't well enough made to hold up to repeated washings. I didn't want
to spend the money, and we'd often end up with some hard feelings when I
resisted and she insisted. Giving her control over her own clothing
budget made all the difference in the world. She would cheerfully ask me
to go shopping with her and we'd have fun, whereas before we'd both
started dreading it.
-pa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/15/2010 5:03 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
were, as I recall, a couple of times Roya was going to a birthday party
and didn't have money for gifts. I just helped her out with that, for
that time, and she got better at planning ahead over the months and
years that we did this. It wasn't like we were strict about it - we
didn't use it to punish her for being a kid and not having a lot of
budgeting experience. We still bought her stuff - we didn't turn stingy,
we just gave her a chunk of the budget to have control over, herself.
This was not imposed from above - this was us working out something
together. She made a list, to start with, of what she needed money for
and about how much she thought she spent per month. Then we looked at
our spending and we talked about the amounts and we all worked out a
dollar amount and what would be bought with that. There were things we
worked out over time, as they came up.
I think it could be done very meanly - in a stingy way. "We can't afford
everything you want, so this is all you get," isn't what I'm talking
about at all. In our case it was more - "This is what we're already
spending, and we're going to give it directly to you so you get to
decide how you want to allocate it."
-pam
=pam
> . It seems if she finally has some money andWe expected this kind of thing - but it didn't really pan out. There
> spends it frivolously and then she doesn't get to go to dance class or
> have shampoo, that's big strings attached. It seems late to start
> with that.
were, as I recall, a couple of times Roya was going to a birthday party
and didn't have money for gifts. I just helped her out with that, for
that time, and she got better at planning ahead over the months and
years that we did this. It wasn't like we were strict about it - we
didn't use it to punish her for being a kid and not having a lot of
budgeting experience. We still bought her stuff - we didn't turn stingy,
we just gave her a chunk of the budget to have control over, herself.
This was not imposed from above - this was us working out something
together. She made a list, to start with, of what she needed money for
and about how much she thought she spent per month. Then we looked at
our spending and we talked about the amounts and we all worked out a
dollar amount and what would be bought with that. There were things we
worked out over time, as they came up.
I think it could be done very meanly - in a stingy way. "We can't afford
everything you want, so this is all you get," isn't what I'm talking
about at all. In our case it was more - "This is what we're already
spending, and we're going to give it directly to you so you get to
decide how you want to allocate it."
-pam
=pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-> . It seems if she finally has some money and
Yours weren't in high school, though with other kids telling them how
to spend their money.
This girl is 15 and not an unschooler.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> spends it frivolously and then she doesn't get to go to dance classor
> have shampoo, that's big strings attached. It seems late to start-=-We expected this kind of thing - but it didn't really pan out-=-
> with that.
Yours weren't in high school, though with other kids telling them how
to spend their money.
This girl is 15 and not an unschooler.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah McKee Kelly
I actually think Pam's ideas are really helpful here -- I like the idea of
sitting down with her and helping her devise a list of the things she
currently wants to spend money on -- school ballgames, movies out with
friends, all-weekend slumber parties with friends (she OFTEN wants a friend
over for the entire weekend, and wants us to rent movies, get pizza, buy
snacks, etc.), clothing, cosmetics, and long-term, big items (the $100 fee
for a dance competition that she MUST participate in in addition to her
regular classes and recital that we gladly pay for), coming up with a
reasonable monthly amount for her to manage, and then helping her budget and
dodge some of the bullets that go along with learning to manage money.
I think giving her this involvement in budgeting is a good idea, and I
mentioned to her dad the idea of giving her a monthly amount, no strings
attached. Granted, if you figure that she is going to have months where she
runs out of money, if we "force her to live with the *consequences*" of
that, then it sounds a lot like strings attached. But if we are gentle, and
not stingy and mean about it, and help her out for awhile -- give her a
safety net and help her figure out how she could manage it differently in
the future -- maybe that's not so bad. Her dad is on board with the idea.
Yay.
And yeah, she is a non-unschooled kid who attends public school and has all
these influences that I would SO prefer she not have -- AND she's not even
my kid biologically -- so I'm up against it in that way. However, I've got
to find a way to make this as unschooly and friendly and gentle as possible,
because what is always in my mind is that I can't give up on her just
because I have so little input. And she remains a huge influence over the
younger kids.
Believe me, there are times I think -- and I know this is awful -- she'll be
18 one day, she'll be off doing her own thing, and I won't have to worry
about all of it. But the reality is she will remain involved with our
family well beyond that, and the things we help her with now will only help
our entire family in the coming years. Ideally, she'd be an unschooled kid
and following in the footsteps of Holly, Kirby, and Marty...I just don't
have that luxury. I hope to have it for my little babies who are coming up
now.
Thanks to you all for the time and thought you've put into my schooled girl.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sitting down with her and helping her devise a list of the things she
currently wants to spend money on -- school ballgames, movies out with
friends, all-weekend slumber parties with friends (she OFTEN wants a friend
over for the entire weekend, and wants us to rent movies, get pizza, buy
snacks, etc.), clothing, cosmetics, and long-term, big items (the $100 fee
for a dance competition that she MUST participate in in addition to her
regular classes and recital that we gladly pay for), coming up with a
reasonable monthly amount for her to manage, and then helping her budget and
dodge some of the bullets that go along with learning to manage money.
I think giving her this involvement in budgeting is a good idea, and I
mentioned to her dad the idea of giving her a monthly amount, no strings
attached. Granted, if you figure that she is going to have months where she
runs out of money, if we "force her to live with the *consequences*" of
that, then it sounds a lot like strings attached. But if we are gentle, and
not stingy and mean about it, and help her out for awhile -- give her a
safety net and help her figure out how she could manage it differently in
the future -- maybe that's not so bad. Her dad is on board with the idea.
Yay.
And yeah, she is a non-unschooled kid who attends public school and has all
these influences that I would SO prefer she not have -- AND she's not even
my kid biologically -- so I'm up against it in that way. However, I've got
to find a way to make this as unschooly and friendly and gentle as possible,
because what is always in my mind is that I can't give up on her just
because I have so little input. And she remains a huge influence over the
younger kids.
Believe me, there are times I think -- and I know this is awful -- she'll be
18 one day, she'll be off doing her own thing, and I won't have to worry
about all of it. But the reality is she will remain involved with our
family well beyond that, and the things we help her with now will only help
our entire family in the coming years. Ideally, she'd be an unschooled kid
and following in the footsteps of Holly, Kirby, and Marty...I just don't
have that luxury. I hope to have it for my little babies who are coming up
now.
Thanks to you all for the time and thought you've put into my schooled girl.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah McKee Kelly
And just so we're clear on the shampoo/cosmetics thing -- I am ALWAYS
willing to buy her shampoo (and feminine products and toothpaste and
band-aids, etc.). I don't want it to sound like either she buys it or she
has NO shampoo. I'm not that mean! :)
I am willing / I can afford to spend about $3 a month on a bottle of Suave
or equivalent "cheap-o" shampoo. I will happily buy a bottle of that for
her every month or so and it can be hers, and she can choose the
flavor/scent/whatever.
Where I balk is at her stated "need" to have a salon-quality, $10-or-more
bottle of shampoo that no one else is allowed to touch because her hair is
more important than anyone else's and because Aunt So-and-So, who went to
beauty school and KNOWS, told her she has to wash her hair twice daily to
not only get the dirt out but also to get it "really clean,"
and...and...and...
That's where I don't want to be judgmental or preachy -- I don't even want
to get into a conversation about what is "better" for hair -- what the heck
do I know? I just want her to see that in our family budget, a $3 bottle
is provided for her no strings attached, and that if she wants the "better"
stuff, I'd like her to pitch in her money for the difference. She's a smart
girl who can balance those kind of choices, and if she wants to use her
money that way, instead of for something else, I want her to have that
choice. And maybe she'll always feel that way about shampoo and hair, and
that is just fine by me. I have grown women friends who I wouldn't think of
advising on their hair-care choices. But to do that, to have that choice,
she's got to have *her* money, and it's got to be an agreement that we've
discussed.
In my little world of values, my extra $7 saved on shampoo will be going for
a chunk of salmon or a book or a pair of socks -- something like that --
which I don't really expect her to appreciate. And that's okay. We are
different people with different interests, and it's fine.
Here's another quick example of not foisting my values on her: I personally
do not use razors, because I don't shave anything on my body. HOWEVER,
shaving is important to her. I'm not getting into any kind of value or
judgment conversation with her about what is "right," or "better," because
she is fully capable of making those decisions herself, and I seriously
don't care what other women do or don't do with their body hair. Because
shaving is important to her, I am more than willing to buy her shaving
supplies -- razors, shaving cream, whatever. Where we hit the problem
again, however, is where I am only willing / able to spend $xx on a basic
razor and some off-brand, cheap-o shaving cream. She wants the
top-of-the-line most recent Venus whatever that all her friends are using
and that she saw in a magazine and she MUST have the silky smooth shaving
gel brand-name blah blah because it's "better." If she had some skin
problem or reaction to the cheaper ones, that would be something we'd take
into account. But just like the shampoo, is it so bad for me to say, "I'll
gladly provide this razor and shaving cream for you, but if you want the
higher-end kind, I'll put the amount I can pay toward it, and you can take
care of the difference."
I would like input for this, because it's somewhat the same idea I'd like to
use with my younger kids as they get older.
Thanks. Hope it's not too far off-topic.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
willing to buy her shampoo (and feminine products and toothpaste and
band-aids, etc.). I don't want it to sound like either she buys it or she
has NO shampoo. I'm not that mean! :)
I am willing / I can afford to spend about $3 a month on a bottle of Suave
or equivalent "cheap-o" shampoo. I will happily buy a bottle of that for
her every month or so and it can be hers, and she can choose the
flavor/scent/whatever.
Where I balk is at her stated "need" to have a salon-quality, $10-or-more
bottle of shampoo that no one else is allowed to touch because her hair is
more important than anyone else's and because Aunt So-and-So, who went to
beauty school and KNOWS, told her she has to wash her hair twice daily to
not only get the dirt out but also to get it "really clean,"
and...and...and...
That's where I don't want to be judgmental or preachy -- I don't even want
to get into a conversation about what is "better" for hair -- what the heck
do I know? I just want her to see that in our family budget, a $3 bottle
is provided for her no strings attached, and that if she wants the "better"
stuff, I'd like her to pitch in her money for the difference. She's a smart
girl who can balance those kind of choices, and if she wants to use her
money that way, instead of for something else, I want her to have that
choice. And maybe she'll always feel that way about shampoo and hair, and
that is just fine by me. I have grown women friends who I wouldn't think of
advising on their hair-care choices. But to do that, to have that choice,
she's got to have *her* money, and it's got to be an agreement that we've
discussed.
In my little world of values, my extra $7 saved on shampoo will be going for
a chunk of salmon or a book or a pair of socks -- something like that --
which I don't really expect her to appreciate. And that's okay. We are
different people with different interests, and it's fine.
Here's another quick example of not foisting my values on her: I personally
do not use razors, because I don't shave anything on my body. HOWEVER,
shaving is important to her. I'm not getting into any kind of value or
judgment conversation with her about what is "right," or "better," because
she is fully capable of making those decisions herself, and I seriously
don't care what other women do or don't do with their body hair. Because
shaving is important to her, I am more than willing to buy her shaving
supplies -- razors, shaving cream, whatever. Where we hit the problem
again, however, is where I am only willing / able to spend $xx on a basic
razor and some off-brand, cheap-o shaving cream. She wants the
top-of-the-line most recent Venus whatever that all her friends are using
and that she saw in a magazine and she MUST have the silky smooth shaving
gel brand-name blah blah because it's "better." If she had some skin
problem or reaction to the cheaper ones, that would be something we'd take
into account. But just like the shampoo, is it so bad for me to say, "I'll
gladly provide this razor and shaving cream for you, but if you want the
higher-end kind, I'll put the amount I can pay toward it, and you can take
care of the difference."
I would like input for this, because it's somewhat the same idea I'd like to
use with my younger kids as they get older.
Thanks. Hope it's not too far off-topic.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I would like input for this, because it's somewhat the same idea I'd like to
use with my younger kids as they get older.***
I have a high end product user at my house. The difference for us, is that she is unschooling. What she is into IS hair and make-up, this is part and parcel of how we help her learn more about that industry. She has tried many many products, some very expensive ones. I've gotta say that most of the expensive ones perform better. There is a reason why they cost more. That's not the case for all top brands though. We also know that Sally's Beauty Supply, if you have one any where nearby, sells much less expensive items that perform the same.
We buy replaceable razor heads for 2 different razors depending on where we happen to be shopping. Chamille actually prefers the cheaper one because she likes the moisture strip on that one better than the other one. She's also tried lots of different shaving creams and lotions, and hair conditioners (what I got to use as a teen), and decided that the aveeno bar soap is by far the best product for shaving and not making her skin dry out. It took trial and error to find that out, and yes, money spent on trying out different products.
It might help to know what it is she wants from a particular product. I personally don't like Suave and neither does Chamille, it's way too drying and makes hair kind of frizzy which needs to be countered with more products that cost more money. After trying many many many products, she found, out of the lower end products, that the Garnier products worked pretty good. They don't cost much more than Suave. Again though, it was through much trial and error and money spent of trying out various products. Chamille loves the Bed Head products and the Catwalk products, but they are very expensive and we only buy them occasionally and she uses them sparingly. We tend to use the higher end products for finishing details, like the serums for using flat irons or anti-frizz control.
I don't know that I'd go either/or on the personal hygiene products! I'm kind of picky myself. It is the ONE thing that I spend money on when I don't have much. I will go without rather than buy a product that I don't like. That's just me. I'm a sucker for really nice soaps, and nice smelling hair products and nice lotions. I splurge and use sparingly. I have a couple of low end items that I'll buy in a pinch, I've been using them a lot lately so that Chamille can afford her higher end products. Trader Joe's is wonderful for that!
If it were me, I'd offer to try a variety of low end products to see which one she likes the best and maybe splurge every now and again on a nice finishing product. Suave may be the least expensive, but even if you can add a dollar to that amount, you'll expand your options greatly! Perhaps just a few more choices would help her feel less like needing the most expensive. After all, hair care products, in most stores will take up an entire aisle! That's a lot of choices, even if only half the aisle would fit in the budget.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
use with my younger kids as they get older.***
I have a high end product user at my house. The difference for us, is that she is unschooling. What she is into IS hair and make-up, this is part and parcel of how we help her learn more about that industry. She has tried many many products, some very expensive ones. I've gotta say that most of the expensive ones perform better. There is a reason why they cost more. That's not the case for all top brands though. We also know that Sally's Beauty Supply, if you have one any where nearby, sells much less expensive items that perform the same.
We buy replaceable razor heads for 2 different razors depending on where we happen to be shopping. Chamille actually prefers the cheaper one because she likes the moisture strip on that one better than the other one. She's also tried lots of different shaving creams and lotions, and hair conditioners (what I got to use as a teen), and decided that the aveeno bar soap is by far the best product for shaving and not making her skin dry out. It took trial and error to find that out, and yes, money spent on trying out different products.
It might help to know what it is she wants from a particular product. I personally don't like Suave and neither does Chamille, it's way too drying and makes hair kind of frizzy which needs to be countered with more products that cost more money. After trying many many many products, she found, out of the lower end products, that the Garnier products worked pretty good. They don't cost much more than Suave. Again though, it was through much trial and error and money spent of trying out various products. Chamille loves the Bed Head products and the Catwalk products, but they are very expensive and we only buy them occasionally and she uses them sparingly. We tend to use the higher end products for finishing details, like the serums for using flat irons or anti-frizz control.
I don't know that I'd go either/or on the personal hygiene products! I'm kind of picky myself. It is the ONE thing that I spend money on when I don't have much. I will go without rather than buy a product that I don't like. That's just me. I'm a sucker for really nice soaps, and nice smelling hair products and nice lotions. I splurge and use sparingly. I have a couple of low end items that I'll buy in a pinch, I've been using them a lot lately so that Chamille can afford her higher end products. Trader Joe's is wonderful for that!
If it were me, I'd offer to try a variety of low end products to see which one she likes the best and maybe splurge every now and again on a nice finishing product. Suave may be the least expensive, but even if you can add a dollar to that amount, you'll expand your options greatly! Perhaps just a few more choices would help her feel less like needing the most expensive. After all, hair care products, in most stores will take up an entire aisle! That's a lot of choices, even if only half the aisle would fit in the budget.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Believe me, there are times I think -- and I know this is awful --
she'll be
18 one day, she'll be off doing her own thing, and I won't have to worry
about all of it. But the reality is she will remain involved with our
family well beyond that, and the things we help her with now will only
help
our entire family in the coming years-=-
That's all true. She won't resent the way you are with the half-sibs
if she had those opportunities as well.
I think it's cool that even though she didn't have the option to stay
home that she's able to see the differences in philosophy and
practice. She'll have all that in her experiences if she becomes a mom.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
she'll be
18 one day, she'll be off doing her own thing, and I won't have to worry
about all of it. But the reality is she will remain involved with our
family well beyond that, and the things we help her with now will only
help
our entire family in the coming years-=-
That's all true. She won't resent the way you are with the half-sibs
if she had those opportunities as well.
I think it's cool that even though she didn't have the option to stay
home that she's able to see the differences in philosophy and
practice. She'll have all that in her experiences if she becomes a mom.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Does it have to be a $3 dollar cheap-o shampoo?
Would you both be happy with a "better" quality but still less than $10 dollars shampoo
maybe like Pantene? You can get those on sale or with coupons for around $5-6.
That way way you can afford it ( if you can) and she gets a fancier one.
I find that I use less shampoo and less conditioner when I use stuff like that and it lasts longer for me ( I have long hair).
Maybe you can try different ones and compare Suave and others less expensive to see
if one works for her hair.
By the way I also use Treseme and its very cheap and very very good!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Would you both be happy with a "better" quality but still less than $10 dollars shampoo
maybe like Pantene? You can get those on sale or with coupons for around $5-6.
That way way you can afford it ( if you can) and she gets a fancier one.
I find that I use less shampoo and less conditioner when I use stuff like that and it lasts longer for me ( I have long hair).
Maybe you can try different ones and compare Suave and others less expensive to see
if one works for her hair.
By the way I also use Treseme and its very cheap and very very good!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
===Telling her she has to buy her own shampoo and clothes seems to be strings attached. <snip> It seems if she finally has some money and spends it frivolously and then she doesn't get to go to dance class or have shampoo, that's big strings attached.===
That's why I suggested sitting down with her and having her prioritize her wants -- to think ahead about what's coming up for that month (or however often an allowance would be paid), excluding what her parents usually pay for (dance class, for example), and let her make the choice on which things she wants/needs to fund during that allowance period and which might have to wait.
If there are some things that really can't wait (friends' birthdays, for example) and her spending money won't cover it all, if her parents can afford to help out, that's great -- but sometimes that may not be possible.
If it turns out her wants regularly exceed her means/the family's means, at that point she might be interested in finding ways to earn a little extra spending money. Or she may decide some of her wants are less important to her than earning spending money.
You can look up on the internet which hair products in which price ranges work well for certain hair types -- in fact, some magazine or another (Real Simple, maybe?) included that info in a recent (within the last 6 or 8 months) issue. It might be helpful to find that information and share it with her, and y'all can go to the store and let her check out some of the recommended shampoos in the lesser expensive category.
It is harder when there's an outside influence from peers about the "right" shampoo, razor, clothes, etc. If what she wants truly isn't affordable, have her brainstorm with you about options.
Glenda
That's why I suggested sitting down with her and having her prioritize her wants -- to think ahead about what's coming up for that month (or however often an allowance would be paid), excluding what her parents usually pay for (dance class, for example), and let her make the choice on which things she wants/needs to fund during that allowance period and which might have to wait.
If there are some things that really can't wait (friends' birthdays, for example) and her spending money won't cover it all, if her parents can afford to help out, that's great -- but sometimes that may not be possible.
If it turns out her wants regularly exceed her means/the family's means, at that point she might be interested in finding ways to earn a little extra spending money. Or she may decide some of her wants are less important to her than earning spending money.
You can look up on the internet which hair products in which price ranges work well for certain hair types -- in fact, some magazine or another (Real Simple, maybe?) included that info in a recent (within the last 6 or 8 months) issue. It might be helpful to find that information and share it with her, and y'all can go to the store and let her check out some of the recommended shampoos in the lesser expensive category.
It is harder when there's an outside influence from peers about the "right" shampoo, razor, clothes, etc. If what she wants truly isn't affordable, have her brainstorm with you about options.
Glenda
Joanna
I have an experience that is different, but might be helpful to your situation. My mother has lost the capability to oversee her own money but still wants and needs some independence. I take in all the income and pay all the bills, put some into savings, and then give her what's left to buy the rest of what she needs--groceries, restaurants, gas, toiletries & medicines, etc. I have gotten her one of these:
https://usbank.visabuxx.com/index.cfm?pageid=a01
in place of a bank account, because she was unable to balance her checkbook anymore. And I can move all the money around from my computer, including adding $$ to the card. She has enough independence without the consequences of "messing up." This card is actually set up for teens and college students, but is working right now for us. If you could figure out some of the "extras" of Caitlin's life, you could get her a card or transfer $$ into a checking account--but you've covered anything that could cause a problem for her, like missing a payment to an instructor.
Joanna
https://usbank.visabuxx.com/index.cfm?pageid=a01
in place of a bank account, because she was unable to balance her checkbook anymore. And I can move all the money around from my computer, including adding $$ to the card. She has enough independence without the consequences of "messing up." This card is actually set up for teens and college students, but is working right now for us. If you could figure out some of the "extras" of Caitlin's life, you could get her a card or transfer $$ into a checking account--but you've covered anything that could cause a problem for her, like missing a payment to an instructor.
Joanna
k
I do the same thing. I have long thick hair and it used to get really
oily very quickly. I use a tiny amount and it goes a long way whereas
the cheaper shampoos go through a lotta bottles (IMO.. for me anyway).
I like the smell of Tresemme and I remember years ago it's what the
beauty salon used on my hair. Funny pleasant memory. We've had this
bottle (all 3 of us use it) for months so it can be used in such a way
that it's a savings. I mean, you could unknowingly use way more than
needed to clean hair if you don't know a couple apps of less can be
used.
~Katherine
oily very quickly. I use a tiny amount and it goes a long way whereas
the cheaper shampoos go through a lotta bottles (IMO.. for me anyway).
I like the smell of Tresemme and I remember years ago it's what the
beauty salon used on my hair. Funny pleasant memory. We've had this
bottle (all 3 of us use it) for months so it can be used in such a way
that it's a savings. I mean, you could unknowingly use way more than
needed to clean hair if you don't know a couple apps of less can be
used.
~Katherine
On 3/15/10, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> Does it have to be a $3 dollar cheap-o shampoo?
> Would you both be happy with a "better" quality but still less than $10
> dollars shampoo
> maybe like Pantene? You can get those on sale or with coupons for around
> $5-6.
> That way way you can afford it ( if you can) and she gets a fancier one.
> I find that I use less shampoo and less conditioner when I use stuff like
> that and it lasts longer for me ( I have long hair).
> Maybe you can try different ones and compare Suave and others less expensive
> to see
> if one works for her hair.
> By the way I also use Treseme and its very cheap and very very good!
>
>
>
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Gwen
My yougest & I use a Garnier shampoo (cheapest at Walmart...huge price difference) and a super cheap conditioner. It works for us.
My oldest doesn't care what kind of shampoo she uses, but I buy Carol's Daughter for her because her hair is very curly & dries easily. It is $18 for a small bottle...but we make it last. The side benefit is that it smells wonderful (Rosemary & mint & something else). The whole house smells great when we wash Megan's hair.
I know JCPenny's often has sales on hair products. Sephora offers free samples for online orders. Costco/Sam's Club might be worth checking out...I'm not sure what brands's they carry....
Maybe the regular places a teen can work aren't interesting to her...maybe working at someplace like Sally's or a hair salon would be more interesting & offer discounts on products?
I've known people who worked just a shift or two per week at a movie theater so they didn't have to pay for movies.
Gwen
My oldest doesn't care what kind of shampoo she uses, but I buy Carol's Daughter for her because her hair is very curly & dries easily. It is $18 for a small bottle...but we make it last. The side benefit is that it smells wonderful (Rosemary & mint & something else). The whole house smells great when we wash Megan's hair.
I know JCPenny's often has sales on hair products. Sephora offers free samples for online orders. Costco/Sam's Club might be worth checking out...I'm not sure what brands's they carry....
Maybe the regular places a teen can work aren't interesting to her...maybe working at someplace like Sally's or a hair salon would be more interesting & offer discounts on products?
I've known people who worked just a shift or two per week at a movie theater so they didn't have to pay for movies.
Gwen
On Mar 15, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
She has tried many many products, some very expensive ones. I've gotta say that most of the expensive ones perform better. There is a reason why they cost more. That's not the case for all top brands though. We also know that Sally's Beauty Supply, if you have one any where nearby, sells much less expensive items that perform the same.
Sandra Dodd
If we had awards for best advice of the week or something like that, I
would absolutely nominate this one by Gwen:
=====================
I know JCPenny's often has sales on hair products. Sephora offers free
samples for online orders. Costco/Sam's Club might be worth checking
out...I'm not sure what brands's they carry....
Maybe the regular places a teen can work aren't interesting to
her...maybe working at someplace like Sally's or a hair salon would be
more interesting & offer discounts on products?
I've known people who worked just a shift or two per week at a movie
theater so they didn't have to pay for movies.
Gwen
==================
Really great ideas, direct and practical.
I've been stressed today and trying not to be. Holly leaves
tomorrow. I've known the day was coming, and she's left twice in the
past six months (to Oregon for a while; to England for a while) but
this will be the longest time away, and we've been getting along
really well.
Partly for that reason, maybe, Gwen's cheerful ideas for making a
teenaged girl happier and more independent made me giddy.
Sandra
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would absolutely nominate this one by Gwen:
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I know JCPenny's often has sales on hair products. Sephora offers free
samples for online orders. Costco/Sam's Club might be worth checking
out...I'm not sure what brands's they carry....
Maybe the regular places a teen can work aren't interesting to
her...maybe working at someplace like Sally's or a hair salon would be
more interesting & offer discounts on products?
I've known people who worked just a shift or two per week at a movie
theater so they didn't have to pay for movies.
Gwen
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Really great ideas, direct and practical.
I've been stressed today and trying not to be. Holly leaves
tomorrow. I've known the day was coming, and she's left twice in the
past six months (to Oregon for a while; to England for a while) but
this will be the longest time away, and we've been getting along
really well.
Partly for that reason, maybe, Gwen's cheerful ideas for making a
teenaged girl happier and more independent made me giddy.
Sandra
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