Sandra Dodd

It's been a tiring week for me, with people writing to me on the side
trying to persuade me to be and to think differently, to give them
what they want, to live my life another way.

Here's what I do for fun volunteer work:

this list
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://lyricsgame/blogspot.com
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
and some other things like those.

I don't WANT to do a whole bunch of other things.
I don't want to do those things differently.
I know I can't make everyone in the world happy.
I never tried to make everyone in the world happy.

I've declared and described what I'm interested in doing, and what I'm
willing to do, and where. I haven't come to anyone's house asking
them if they want to know more about unschooling.

Here's one exchange and I invite feedback and discussion, because it
might help others who see this list in a wishful, hopeful "Now that
I'm here maybe they'll change it to be my recent-dream list!"

Not Me: -=-I'm actually not "new" to unschooling at all, as I have
been reading and experimenting with it for some years-=-

Me: -=-The questions you were asking were newcomer questions. That's
what we have to go on. The list isn't really intended for newcomer-
level discussion.-=-

Not Me: Why do you label people so much? Is there really such a
thing as "newcomer" questions for anything in life? Surely people can
dialogue about such things on many levels. Why such impatience? Do
you feel attacked by "outsiders" contemptuous of "newcomers"? Just
not really open to dialogue?

Me, responding there:

-=-The questions you were asking were newcomer questions. That's what
we have to go on. The list isn't really intended for newcomer-level
discussion.

Why do you label people so much? Is there really such a thing as
"newcomer" questions for anything in life? Surely people can dialogue
about such things on many levels. Why such impatience? Do you feel
attacked by "outsiders" contemptuous of "newcomers"? Just not really
open to dialogue?-=-

If you go to a sewing class and have NO IDEA what selvage or nap mean,
they will figure you're a beginner.

-=- Is there really such a thing as "newcomer" questions for anything
in life? -=-

Yes. Absolutely. For EVERYTHING there are the questions that
experienced people wouldn't ask. "Is there more than one kind of
blue?" would NEVER be asked among painters. "How is mud going to
last?" wouldn't be asked in an adobe construction project. "Can
babies live on nothing but breastmilk" would not be an informed
question to ask experienced nursing moms or neonatal nurses.

The reason I keep a big list is that I am unwilling to correspond with
those 2500 people individually. Nor any subgroup. I'm choosing to
volunteer my time in a group setting. You're welcome there if you
want to learn about unschooling.

Sandra
===================================================

Me, expanding here.

I'm really impatient? It doesn't seem so. I've been answering
newcomers' questions since I was a newcomer and the answers were "Let
me ask" or "let me look!"

Do I feel attacked by "outsiders" contemptuous of "newcomers"? What?
I feel crowded by complainers, but I'm not contemptuous of newcomers
or outsiders. I would like for people to come and use the group as
it's designed and maintained to be used, for discussions of
unschooling for the purpose of unschooling better. Of understanding
unschooling in oder to do it.

-=-I'm actually not "new" to unschooling at all, as I have been
reading and experimenting with it for some years-=-

If I read about building solar houses for five years or ten, read
EVERY solar housebuilding book ever written, could I go to a
construction site where other guys had been building and learning more
and more all those years I was reading and assure them I wasn't new to
building solar houses?

If I had experimented on solar houses, THEN would I not be new to
building them?

Unschooling is not easy to understand. If people are reading about it
or experimenting on it without really deschooling themselves, they'll
see it through school-colored glasses. They will see what it looks
like through a school window, rather than what it looks like from
between children, after three years of not thinking about "schoolwork"
at all.

-=- Do you feel attacked by "outsiders" contemptuous of "newcomers"?
Just not really open to dialogue?-=-

Just - not - really - open - to - dialogue - ? ? ?
Seriously?

Is THAT a beginner-to-this-list question or WHAT?

Sandra



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Beth Danicke

<<Just - not - really - open - to - dialogue - ? ? ?
Seriously?
Is THAT a beginner-to-this-list question or WHAT?>>

That one actually made me laugh out loud. I understand that unschooling can
be scary and unfamiliar for those who are new to it. I well remember
joining the Unschooling Discussion list 10+ years ago and feeling like I had
stumbled into some alternate universe. Everything seemed upside down
because of the way I'd been raised and schooled and what I'd been taught to
believe. Deschooling takes time.

Step back and read and absorb and get familiar with this new thing and WHY
it works as opposed to jumping in and challenging ideas and butting heads
with people who already KNOW why it works and are willing to share the
secret with you.

It can be frustrating to have people come in with negative attitudes (and
many of them seem to think that we've never heard their particular "why this
won't work" ideas before) telling us we are wrong and that they know a
better way, when it states very clearly in the "welcome to the list" email
that it's best to read and not post for a few weeks to get the feel of the
list. I know it's probably unavoidable, but sometimes the whinging and
complaining muddle up the really good, helpful discussion. Those are the
times that I appreciate the moderation of messages the most.

In happier news, my youngest is reading. For real. For fun. Totally on
his own. He's been sight reading for a while now, but I don't consider that
reading for real. I got up last night at 3 am and found him in his room
with his light on, reading manga. I cannot remember who recommended the
Legend of Zelda manga, but thank you to whoever it was. Caleb will be 12
in May. My girls read much earlier, at 7 and 9, and sometimes it was hard
to trust, but I printed out most of the late reader stories on Sandra's site
and read through them whenever I started to doubt that he would read when he
was good and ready. And now he is. He read to me today for a good 15
minutes. It was really cool.

Beth D

Jenny Cyphers

***Do I feel attacked by "outsiders" contemptuous of "newcomers"? What?
I feel crowded by complainers, but I'm not contemptuous of newcomers
or outsiders. I would like for people to come and use the group as
it's designed and maintained to be used, for discussions of
unschooling for the purpose of unschooling better. Of understanding
unschooling in oder to do it.***

What I've been seeing more and more lately, are LOTS of new-ish people acting as if they were experts. When I first started reading about unschooling, there were the same people as now, writing the same wonderful stuff, and a few who've dropped off. I've seen those same people over and over and over again, answer the same questions that come up from new-ish unschoolers.

I would not call myself new to unschooling. I really see how it works and I implement it into the life of my family. When I was first starting out, I felt like I got it, but in hindsight I understood very little. It's only been through reading and writing for years that I've come to a place that I really really can say with absolute certainty that I understand. My oldest is 15 soon to be 16, I've been at it for over 10 yrs.

The quality of information that I keep seeing arise on the internet has gone down, except for a few select places. There are far more sites on unschooling these days. Folks can pick and choose where they want to get their information from. The couple of places that I write at, are the ones that I've chosen to put time into. When there were only a handful of places to get information, the quality was greater because the concentration of the really good writers were focused in those places. That just isn't the case anymore, except for the few places those wonderful writers have invested time in.

I keep stumbling upon vague and/or bad unschooling advice and information. Similar to the kind of parenting advice that one might get from a more mainstream advice forum, with pats on the back and folks telling other folks to "keep up the wonderful work" based on odd assumptions that everyone is unschooling wonderfully, when for all they know, the person on the other side of the screen still yells at their children. I've been a bit pampered over the years with the really good stuff, that the newer stuff that I'm seeing is glaring in it's sub-quality!

The fact is, if you have a 5 yr old, even if you have been parenting in such a way that makes unschooling successful, it makes you new-ish. There have been really wonderful people that have young children that have written wonderful things, whose children are destined to have wonderful unschooling lives because the parents "got it" early on. That's really cool, and I am seeing more of that. Give it a couple of years and the writing comes with real experience. I've seen that with LOTS of people, including myself!

I, personally, have far less patience with new comer questions than Sandra. I'm way more inclined to put up links to either Sandra or Joyce's sites. I'm AMAZED all the time with Joyce's ability to answer new comer question eloquently over and over and over again! It's an amazing skill. What Sandra does that impresses me, is gets right to the core of a question, condenses thoughts and just goes straight to it. Pam says things that really make sense, the way she takes ideas and turns them inside out and then puts them in writing has helped me enormously to rethink things. Schuyler has a great way of bringing science into ideas (there's lots of other things that are wonderful about her too), and Deb creates humor and logic, back in the day when I saw Anne writing more, she brought in the gentle touch combined with personal accounts. There are many writers that I could acknowledge, but these are the ones that have helped me the most. Some more than
others at various times and stages of growth.

So, with all that, if there were no distinctions between who is new with new person thoughts, it would deny the fact that there clearly ARE people who aren't. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being new to an idea and asking questions. All of us were at one time or another. All those people that have been unschooling for years and write about it, at one time had 5 yr olds, just starting "school" age, who were coming to or came to understand unschooling and how to get it working well.





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Sandra Dodd

-=-when it states very clearly in the "welcome to the list" email
that it's best to read and not post for a few weeks to get the feel of
the
list. -=-

It might...
I think that might be the Unschooling Discussion list, though, which
for a long time was fairly indistinguishable from this one (in all the
best ways <g>).

Still... reading before posting never hurts.

When coming upon people already in conversation it helps to wait a bit
and check the topic and mood before jumping in and starting something
new, or telling them they should be talking differently, or about
something else.

Sandra

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Beth Danicke

<<It might...
I think that might be the Unschooling Discussion list, though, which
for a long time was fairly indistinguishable from this one (in all the
best ways <g>)>>

Oh, I think you're right. I do tend to think of them as one entity. I
remember seeing that recommendation and thinking "Okay, I'll read for a week
or two," and it was over a year before I actually posted anything to the
list.

Beth D

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I am sure that for every complainer you get there are hundreds of people ( most of them lurkers)
who are very thankful for all the time you take to write and help people.
You have been nothing but extremely generous and inspiring for me.
I know ( because you said it) that you are a fast typer, but it still takes time and answer and read post
in list.
The only reason I am doing right now is that Gigi is doing chores with dad and MD is playing a game right here next to me.
Time you are freely willing to give so people like me can learn more about unschooling and a
about having a great relationship not even with my kids but with my husband.
Thank you for all you do.
Thank all the wonderful parents on this list that have made my life what it is today.
Non of you need to change a thing. This list is doing just fine.

I am saying all that right after a friend of mine got all upset because she did not like the way
I posted on my own state wide unschooling list ( I am the owner) and she is not even an unschooler.
Apparently I was not supportive enough and I should have worded things differently.
It had nothing to do with her at all . I was discussing that article about Idle Parenting I posted to this list.
i only found out she was mad at me because I called her for some thing unrelated.
So after last night I have no words of wisdom for you.
I truly appreciate everything you and others do. Thank you.



Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

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Robin Bentley

> I, personally, have far less patience with new comer questions than
> Sandra. I'm way more inclined to put up links to either Sandra or
> Joyce's sites. I'm AMAZED all the time with Joyce's ability to
> answer new comer question eloquently over and over and over again!
> It's an amazing skill. What Sandra does that impresses me, is gets
> right to the core of a question, condenses thoughts and just goes
> straight to it. Pam says things that really make sense, the way she
> takes ideas and turns them inside out and then puts them in writing
> has helped me enormously to rethink things. Schuyler has a great
> way of bringing science into ideas (there's lots of other things
> that are wonderful about her too), and Deb creates humor and logic,
> back in the day when I saw Anne writing more, she brought in the
> gentle touch combined with personal accounts. There are many
> writers that I could acknowledge, but these are the ones that have
> helped me the most. Some more than others at various times and
> stages of growth.

I, too, have far less patience with some newcomer questions and am
inclined to post links because otherwise I might say something out of
sheer frustration. Either that or I write a wordy response that I
can't finish right then and the moment passes (sometimes it's a good
thing not to post for me <g>).

I share Jenny's amazement at the above writers' patience, clarity and
humor. I can't wait to read what they write every day - it's almost
always what I've been thinking about, but can't seem to bring fully
formed to the discussion. I particularly appreciate the number of ways
the same suggestions are presented. There seems always to be at least
one voice that can resonate for someone.

> So, with all that, if there were no distinctions between who is new
> with new person thoughts, it would deny the fact that there clearly
> ARE people who aren't. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being
> new to an idea and asking questions. All of us were at one time or
> another. All those people that have been unschooling for years and
> write about it, at one time had 5 yr olds, just starting "school"
> age, who were coming to or came to understand unschooling and how to
> get it working well.

I remember reading and reading for years before I ever felt I'd
"gotten it" enough to post my thoughts. I know that others learn by
continuing to ask questions, but I just wish the folks who just keep
asking or arguing would just read the answers to their questions and
think about them for a bit. They could go be with their kids in just
one sweeter way. I don't think it's too much to ask.

I posted yesterday about braiding Michelle's hair and said something
about "even long-time unschoolers need a hint now and again" or
something. After I sent it, I thought "who am I to say I'm a long-time
unschooler?" Yes, I've been unschooling since Michelle was 6 (school
age, where we lived) and she's 15 now, but I'm continuing to learn and
absorb every day. Maybe when she's in her 20's, I can really claim
that "label."
>
>
When a new person posts something that's so in tune with what we
discuss here, Sandra or Joyce or Pam happily point it out. Sometimes,
newbies *really* get unschooling. But sometimes they don't. And that's
okay. People are pretty patient with anyone who really wants to
understand. But it's not good manners to keep arguing, whining, and
defending the indefensible (at least the indefensible on *this* list).
Patience runs out for good reason.

Robin B.

Robin Bentley

>
> Why do you label people so much?
> Is there really such a thing as
> "newcomer" questions for anything in life?

Um. What???

Recently, I was a "newcomer" to learning the Hawai'ian language. I had
questions about the sentence structure, about pronunciation, about
double meanings. If I had gone to class and started speaking my
tourist-y words, saying I had lived on the islands for months (over,
say, 10 visits) and claiming I understood exactly what the instructor
was saying, and *then* asked those same questions, I would still have
been a newcomer to the language. Anyone would be able to tell, from my
pronunciation and my attitude, that I was a newbie. And an irritating
one, at that!


> Surely people can dialogue
> about such things on many levels.
> Why such impatience? Do you feel
> attacked by "outsiders" contemptuous of "newcomers"? Just not really
> open to dialogue?-=-

And none of these quoted questions are contemptuous? Please.

What's this "dialogue" nonsense? We talk about unschooling and how it
works. We talk about what makes life better for kids and parents. We
talk about principles. We talk about learning. We help people who want
to learn how to unschool well. And though Sandra has more patience
with newcomers than I'll ever have, I don't think she should waste her
time having "dialogues" with people who only seem interested in
hijacking the list for their own purposes.

What does this person want? To "experiment" with unschooling, but not
actually "do it?" To divert the discussion from unschooling
completely? To "dialogue"? Ugh. Maybe it's all part of a thesis...

Robin B.

Joanna

> It can be frustrating to have people come in with negative attitudes (and
> many of them seem to think that we've never heard their particular "why this
> won't work" ideas before) telling us we are wrong and that they know a
> better way, when it states very clearly in the "welcome to the list" email
> that it's best to read and not post for a few weeks to get the feel of the
> list.

O.k., I know this is not a democracy, but I vote for this to be added to the list description!! :-)

Joanna

k

__What does this person want? To "experiment" with unschooling, but not
actually "do it?" To divert the discussion from unschooling
completely? To "dialogue"? Ugh. Maybe it's all part of a thesis...___

For myself, one of the ways I learned unschooling was to put time into
getting the right answers and writing some of the repetitive stuff on
unschooling lists in answer to people's questions-- questions which came as
predictably as clockwork. All this Q & A was immensely helpful to me. It was
a little like learning to sing a song, and after a while I got the tune well
enough to sing it along. But if more in depth questions came up, I left
those to others unless I thought I could contribute a little from personal
experience as a sort of addendum, a little comment, or an additional example
in the same theme.

I got things wrong sometimes and totally appreciate any correction which
came not just from Sandra but others on the list too. Which is exactly what
I am looking for. I'm the kind of person who really wants to know how to
unschool "in my head" before I actually put it into practice "whole hog"
because I've seen how unschooling works well for Karl, by what I've done
with him so far. I'd rather mess up my words and concepts on the lists than
to mess them more than I absolutely have to with Karl (but I have messed up
some with him to and I can tell by his reaction where I need fine tuning).

I don't know how it will play out in later years when he reaches 12 because
he's 6 now. Plenty that I haven't unschooled yet will be by then, and those
are things I can't say "I get it" about until I get there.

People who are still unconvinced of portions in the wholelife aspects of
radical unschooling may know only parts of the "tune," the parts they've put
into practice in daily life long enough to try it out and see how it WORKS,
because trying it out only to see how it does NOT work isn't a good trial
since it's certainly possible to do it wrong (
http://sandradodd.com/screwitup). And any time questions are asked, people
are only be able to sing the parts they know. Everything else about
unschooling beyond that point is theoretical for those people.

There are only a few broad things one can learn about unschooling theory:
why, how/what to do. And after all that: try it; experience it; do it better
and better.

~Katherine


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