Ideas for facilitating music interest?
thecugals
My 9-year-old daughter is interested in playing the piccolo. Next year she could take lessons at the local elementary school, and in the meantime my husband and I thought it would be nice for her to have a piccolo just to have fun with/play on. While looking around for piccolos to buy or rent, we were told that the school may not let her take piccolo lessons without taking flute lessons first. So I contacted someone at the school and got this reply:
-- I would advise against starting on the piccolo. This manner of instruction is...the approach of competent pedagoues world-wide. The flute is extremely challenging to learn with the finest instruction, yet is easier to learn than the piccolo. Trying to pick up the piccolo on one's own is a recipe for frustration and acquiring improper technique that will hinder future progress.--
My daughter is unenthusiastic about flute lessons. So I wondered if anyone in this group had any suggestions on how to help my daughter explore this interest of hers. Is the above statement true, or just pedagogically correct? At this point I'm not worried about her "future progress". On the other hand, I don't want to set her up for frustration or make it harder to learn to play well later on, should her interest lead her that way.
Beth C.
-- I would advise against starting on the piccolo. This manner of instruction is...the approach of competent pedagoues world-wide. The flute is extremely challenging to learn with the finest instruction, yet is easier to learn than the piccolo. Trying to pick up the piccolo on one's own is a recipe for frustration and acquiring improper technique that will hinder future progress.--
My daughter is unenthusiastic about flute lessons. So I wondered if anyone in this group had any suggestions on how to help my daughter explore this interest of hers. Is the above statement true, or just pedagogically correct? At this point I'm not worried about her "future progress". On the other hand, I don't want to set her up for frustration or make it harder to learn to play well later on, should her interest lead her that way.
Beth C.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"I would advise against starting on the piccolo. This manner of instruction is...the approach of competent pedagoues world-wide. The flute is extremely challenging to learn with the finest instruction, yet is easier to learn than the piccolo. Trying to pick up the piccolo on one's own is a recipe for frustration and acquiring improper technique that will hinder future progress.--"
-=-=-=-
I think they forgot to tell my brother that.
When he was about about 12 y.o they has some flute classes at school were we learned a simple song. Even I did and I am musically handicapped.
My brother learned the song and right way started playing many other songs by ear. Not simple ones either. But any thing he wanted on the flute.
Later on my dad got him a beautiful harmonica and he also learned to play that on his own.
If you go to my Youtube channel under Polykow you can see a video of him playing guitar and his harmonica at the same time.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-
I think they forgot to tell my brother that.
When he was about about 12 y.o they has some flute classes at school were we learned a simple song. Even I did and I am musically handicapped.
My brother learned the song and right way started playing many other songs by ear. Not simple ones either. But any thing he wanted on the flute.
Later on my dad got him a beautiful harmonica and he also learned to play that on his own.
If you go to my Youtube channel under Polykow you can see a video of him playing guitar and his harmonica at the same time.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BlueOcean
I would agree from experience that there is truth to their statement. If I
knew someone wanting to learn how to play the piccolo trumpet, for example,
I would definitely advise them to start on the trumpet. The embouchure
(adjustment of the player's mouth to the mouthpiece) for playing trumpet is
challenging, and the same general technique is used for the piccolo trumpet
but it is much harder (tighter, etc.) needing the slow building of those
muscles over time. To start out with the PT would be very frustrating and
difficult--not that it couldn't be done, but it would be much harder and
take a lot of perseverance and determination to overcome the building of
embouchure muscles leading up to it.
I would suggest renting a flute on a short-term basis, say, three months or
so, so that your daughter can get the fingerings down (much easier on the
flute keys because they are larger) and start to build proper embouchure
technique. That way she can see the relationship between one instrument and
the other and will feel like she has a bit of a leg up when she starts with
the piccolo. She could consider it another type of warm-up, like any good
musician would do before playing his/her instrument.
As for lessons or trying to go it on her own, she can very likely find good
tutorials on YouTube and see how that works out before looking into face to
face lessons if that doesn't interest her at first.
HTH,
Blue
knew someone wanting to learn how to play the piccolo trumpet, for example,
I would definitely advise them to start on the trumpet. The embouchure
(adjustment of the player's mouth to the mouthpiece) for playing trumpet is
challenging, and the same general technique is used for the piccolo trumpet
but it is much harder (tighter, etc.) needing the slow building of those
muscles over time. To start out with the PT would be very frustrating and
difficult--not that it couldn't be done, but it would be much harder and
take a lot of perseverance and determination to overcome the building of
embouchure muscles leading up to it.
I would suggest renting a flute on a short-term basis, say, three months or
so, so that your daughter can get the fingerings down (much easier on the
flute keys because they are larger) and start to build proper embouchure
technique. That way she can see the relationship between one instrument and
the other and will feel like she has a bit of a leg up when she starts with
the piccolo. She could consider it another type of warm-up, like any good
musician would do before playing his/her instrument.
As for lessons or trying to go it on her own, she can very likely find good
tutorials on YouTube and see how that works out before looking into face to
face lessons if that doesn't interest her at first.
HTH,
Blue
----- Original Message -----
My daughter is unenthusiastic about flute lessons. So I wondered if anyone
in this group had any suggestions on how to help my daughter explore this
interest of hers. Is the above statement true, or just pedagogically
correct? At this point I'm not worried about her "future progress". On the
other hand, I don't want to set her up for frustration or make it harder to
learn to play well later on, should her interest lead her that way.
Beth C.
Bernadette Lynn
On 10 March 2010 16:30, thecugals <thecugals@...> wrote:
school music teacher - who was actually a clarinet player and barely played
the flute - in lessons which she shared with a clarinet student and an oboe
student. However apart from that she learned flute and piccolo on her own
and did well enough to gain a place in music college to study for a
performance (degree equivalent) qualification.
I would agree that her instruction made learning extremely challenging for
her though!
I believe the piccolo takes more breath control and requires stronger mouth
muscles than the flute; it may take longer to make a nice sound and to reach
the higher registers than the flute would, but if someone wants to learn
they probably won't see that as a problem as much as a teacher does.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>My sister did learn the flute first and had a handful of lessons from a
>
> -- I would advise against starting on the piccolo. This manner of
> instruction is...the approach of competent pedagoues world-wide. The flute
> is extremely challenging to learn with the finest instruction, yet is easier
> to learn than the piccolo. Trying to pick up the piccolo on one's own is a
> recipe for frustration and acquiring improper technique that will hinder
> future progress.--
>
school music teacher - who was actually a clarinet player and barely played
the flute - in lessons which she shared with a clarinet student and an oboe
student. However apart from that she learned flute and piccolo on her own
and did well enough to gain a place in music college to study for a
performance (degree equivalent) qualification.
I would agree that her instruction made learning extremely challenging for
her though!
I believe the piccolo takes more breath control and requires stronger mouth
muscles than the flute; it may take longer to make a nice sound and to reach
the higher registers than the flute would, but if someone wants to learn
they probably won't see that as a problem as much as a teacher does.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I would advise against starting on the piccolo. This manner of
instruction is...the approach of competent pedagoues world-wide. The
flute is extremely challenging to learn with the finest instruction,
yet is easier to learn than the piccolo. Trying to pick up the piccolo
on one's own is a recipe for frustration and acquiring improper
technique that will hinder future progress.---=-
Maybe you could find a teacher. There's NO WAY, unless you've played
flute, that she'll figure it out from a book. *MAYBE* there are some
youtube videos or a video flute instruction that would help.
At nine, her hands might be small for a flute.
Last night Holly was making a "hooo" sound with a coke bottle, which
she only learned to do yesterday. She was kinda berating me for not
having shown her earlier, but coke has come in cans her whole life.
She just happened to get a case of Mexican coke, and it didn't occur
to me to show her earlier on juice, and a SoBe bottle is too big a
mouth. But that's the kind of sound making flutes take, and you
change the speed of the air and the angle of the flute a little bit to
make it an octave higher. It's tricky.
With a piccolo, the speed and angle are even more important. It's
easier to make a sound on a flute than a piccolo.
-=-At this point I'm not worried about her "future progress". On the
other hand, I don't want to set her up for frustration or make it
harder to learn to play well later on, should her interest lead her
that way.-=-
It wouldn't make it harder to learn later on. What if you find a
flute player, explain all this (or just forward the e-mails) and ask
for a session in which she can see the flute and piccolo played, close
up. And maybe you could ask in advance for the name of musical pieces
that feature piccolo, and maybe download some of those, or get them
somehow. She could explore the history and reality of piccolos
without starting from trying to learn to play one.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
instruction is...the approach of competent pedagoues world-wide. The
flute is extremely challenging to learn with the finest instruction,
yet is easier to learn than the piccolo. Trying to pick up the piccolo
on one's own is a recipe for frustration and acquiring improper
technique that will hinder future progress.---=-
Maybe you could find a teacher. There's NO WAY, unless you've played
flute, that she'll figure it out from a book. *MAYBE* there are some
youtube videos or a video flute instruction that would help.
At nine, her hands might be small for a flute.
Last night Holly was making a "hooo" sound with a coke bottle, which
she only learned to do yesterday. She was kinda berating me for not
having shown her earlier, but coke has come in cans her whole life.
She just happened to get a case of Mexican coke, and it didn't occur
to me to show her earlier on juice, and a SoBe bottle is too big a
mouth. But that's the kind of sound making flutes take, and you
change the speed of the air and the angle of the flute a little bit to
make it an octave higher. It's tricky.
With a piccolo, the speed and angle are even more important. It's
easier to make a sound on a flute than a piccolo.
-=-At this point I'm not worried about her "future progress". On the
other hand, I don't want to set her up for frustration or make it
harder to learn to play well later on, should her interest lead her
that way.-=-
It wouldn't make it harder to learn later on. What if you find a
flute player, explain all this (or just forward the e-mails) and ask
for a session in which she can see the flute and piccolo played, close
up. And maybe you could ask in advance for the name of musical pieces
that feature piccolo, and maybe download some of those, or get them
somehow. She could explore the history and reality of piccolos
without starting from trying to learn to play one.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
I play the flute, and played piccolo as well as a young person. I would have to agree with what they've said, although I hate to say anything that would come across as discouraging. Getting a good tone on the piccolo really is very challenging. Although I still occasionally play (some times more than others) I can't even really get a good sound anymore without a lot of practice--and I was at the point where I considered playing professionally.
I don't know that I agree about the "...acquiring improper technique" part. I think it's easier to acquire improper technique on the flute than the piccolo--in part because you have to be good to get a sound and to be able to move the sound up and down--hence the frustration part. All that being said, though, would there be that much harm in renting one for a month or so to play around with? The first thing you do in teaching flute, or piccolo, is to use just the headpiece, unconnected to the body, and play with it to make a sound. When the sound is relatively clear and consistent, then you attach the body, and it'll be easier to find the way to make sound again.
Flutes come in closed hole models so that finger positions don't need to be exact, making it pretty likely that she could play if she wanted to, unless she's a very small 9. There is a whole world of good quality penny whistles and pipes that you could investigate that might be in the piccolo range, if it's the sound that intrigues her, although having small hands myself, I have actually found the holes frustratingly challenging to cover, depending on the style and model--even some of the smaller ones, because they don't necessarily scale down the finger spacing. Just something to keep in mind.
You've probably already thought about recorders...
This place has an amazing selection of high quality pipes, etc., plus lots of other good stuff:
http://larkinthemorning.com/
Joanna
I don't know that I agree about the "...acquiring improper technique" part. I think it's easier to acquire improper technique on the flute than the piccolo--in part because you have to be good to get a sound and to be able to move the sound up and down--hence the frustration part. All that being said, though, would there be that much harm in renting one for a month or so to play around with? The first thing you do in teaching flute, or piccolo, is to use just the headpiece, unconnected to the body, and play with it to make a sound. When the sound is relatively clear and consistent, then you attach the body, and it'll be easier to find the way to make sound again.
Flutes come in closed hole models so that finger positions don't need to be exact, making it pretty likely that she could play if she wanted to, unless she's a very small 9. There is a whole world of good quality penny whistles and pipes that you could investigate that might be in the piccolo range, if it's the sound that intrigues her, although having small hands myself, I have actually found the holes frustratingly challenging to cover, depending on the style and model--even some of the smaller ones, because they don't necessarily scale down the finger spacing. Just something to keep in mind.
You've probably already thought about recorders...
This place has an amazing selection of high quality pipes, etc., plus lots of other good stuff:
http://larkinthemorning.com/
Joanna
[email protected]
<Flutes come in closed hole models so that finger positions don't need to
be exact, making it pretty likely <that she could play if she wanted to,
unless she's a very small 9. There is a whole world of good quality <penny
whistles and pipes that you could investigate that might be in the piccolo
range, if it's the sound that <intrigues her, although having small hands
myself, I have actually found the holes frustratingly challenging <to cover>
I agree with this. I play flute and recorders, and a closed hole flute
(with the keywork doing the work of your finger pads) is less of a stretch
for small hands than an alto/treble recorder. Descant/soprano recorder is
smaller, but it isn't necessarily an ideal stepping stone to flute: the
blowing techniques of recorders and flutes are very different and she'd have to
relearn what to do with her cheek muscles.
Also you can get flutes with curved head joints which mean that small arms
don't have to stretch so far to hold the instrument in position.
I do think it would be easiest to start on flute because it's more
forgiving on the embouchure (shape of the mouth) and the breath control. This
means your daughter will be making music more quickly and the transition to
piccolo will not be so difficult as starting from scratch. It can be
discouraging to spend so much time in mastering a difficult technique that you get
little chance to actually play a tune.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be exact, making it pretty likely <that she could play if she wanted to,
unless she's a very small 9. There is a whole world of good quality <penny
whistles and pipes that you could investigate that might be in the piccolo
range, if it's the sound that <intrigues her, although having small hands
myself, I have actually found the holes frustratingly challenging <to cover>
I agree with this. I play flute and recorders, and a closed hole flute
(with the keywork doing the work of your finger pads) is less of a stretch
for small hands than an alto/treble recorder. Descant/soprano recorder is
smaller, but it isn't necessarily an ideal stepping stone to flute: the
blowing techniques of recorders and flutes are very different and she'd have to
relearn what to do with her cheek muscles.
Also you can get flutes with curved head joints which mean that small arms
don't have to stretch so far to hold the instrument in position.
I do think it would be easiest to start on flute because it's more
forgiving on the embouchure (shape of the mouth) and the breath control. This
means your daughter will be making music more quickly and the transition to
piccolo will not be so difficult as starting from scratch. It can be
discouraging to spend so much time in mastering a difficult technique that you get
little chance to actually play a tune.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca
> My daughter is unenthusiastic about flute lessons. So I wondered if anyone in this group had any suggestions on how to help my daughter explore this interest of hers. Is the above statement true, or just pedagogically correct? <I thought I'd read a suggestion to rent a piccolo for her to just play with a little. I can't seem to find that message (so maybe I made it up!) but it seemed like a great idea to me. And, perhaps, rent a flute, too, so that she can play with making sounds on both of them. She may be able to make her own decision about which instrument feels best to her (or feels most satisfactory as she's learning to make sounds).
When I was 7, I wanted to play in the school band and I really wanted to play the clarinet. I was told that my fingers were too small to cover the holes and that I should play a closed-hole flute instead (and I did manage just fine at that age). I liked the flute but was always a bit sad that I didn't get my first choice because I was "too small".
Being part of band (instead of having private lessons) means that I did teach myself to play the flute competently, so it is possible.
The suggestion to start by making sound only using the mouth piece is a good one. And "playing" bottles (different levels of fluid) is a fun way to get the feel for how the air works.
Would love to know how this works out for her!
- Rebecca
Clare Kirkpatrick
My brother in law wanted to learn to play the flute. He got so bored of
having to learn scales in lessons that he asked his mum if he could stop the
lessons and just play for fun. She, thankfully, agreed. He is now an
extremely talented and experienced jazz flautist, with his own independent
record label. He's a talented composer too, and has qualifications from
Goldsmiths in London, where he now teaches as well.
I am now a great believer in letting a child learn an instrument the way
they see fit - if that means lessons and exams, then fine, if it means just
exploring and playing then also fine. Personally, I'm staring to wonder if
that inate musicality that some people have can be crushed by too formal
lessons.
this interest of hers. Is the above statement true, or just pedagogically
correct? <
having to learn scales in lessons that he asked his mum if he could stop the
lessons and just play for fun. She, thankfully, agreed. He is now an
extremely talented and experienced jazz flautist, with his own independent
record label. He's a talented composer too, and has qualifications from
Goldsmiths in London, where he now teaches as well.
I am now a great believer in letting a child learn an instrument the way
they see fit - if that means lessons and exams, then fine, if it means just
exploring and playing then also fine. Personally, I'm staring to wonder if
that inate musicality that some people have can be crushed by too formal
lessons.
> My daughter is unenthusiastic about flute lessons. So I wondered ifanyone in this group had any suggestions on how to help my daughter explore
this interest of hers. Is the above statement true, or just pedagogically
correct? <
Sandra Dodd
On my own I tried several times to learn calligraphy, but couldn't get
it. One lesson with a calligrapher and the rest was easy. The things
I needed to know how to do needed someone right there coaching me
through how deep to dip the pen, what angle to hold it, how hard to
press.
On my own I had tried to play recorder, and I did do it a little, but
not smoothly--very awkwardly. I had no idea what to do with the hand
that was covering any holes! Clarinets and saxophones have a
thumbrest; recorders don't.
One session with an experienced player to answer my questions, and I
was OFF!
After a couple of years I took some serious lessons (one year of
university lessons) with Floyd Williams, who teaches at a conservatory
in Australia now, and that was coaching for playing Telemann Sonatas
and suchlike--the serious recorder repertoire. It was fun! But to
have lessons like that, one already needs to know music reading and
the instrument. So I'm not recommending those lessons. I'm telling
that to keep from being a fibber about "one session."
I have a lot of facility with calligraphy and playing recorder now,
but I did need that session with someone who could say "Oh! Tongue
against the roof of your mouth, 'duh,' rather than the back of your
teen "tuh," and "Dip the pen about halfway to the top of the
reservoir, and then scrape off the excess; or some people use a piece
of paper towel..." [in a way I can't describe in writing, but could
show you in person]."
So I think renting a piccolo without going straight from there to a
half hour session with someone who can play flute and piccolo would be
a recipe for frustration and tears. But finding someone, anyone, high
school marching band piccolo player, or someone from the local
orchestra, or a flute teacher, and ask for a half hour session and
demonstration of the instruments... that would be fun!
Sandra
it. One lesson with a calligrapher and the rest was easy. The things
I needed to know how to do needed someone right there coaching me
through how deep to dip the pen, what angle to hold it, how hard to
press.
On my own I had tried to play recorder, and I did do it a little, but
not smoothly--very awkwardly. I had no idea what to do with the hand
that was covering any holes! Clarinets and saxophones have a
thumbrest; recorders don't.
One session with an experienced player to answer my questions, and I
was OFF!
After a couple of years I took some serious lessons (one year of
university lessons) with Floyd Williams, who teaches at a conservatory
in Australia now, and that was coaching for playing Telemann Sonatas
and suchlike--the serious recorder repertoire. It was fun! But to
have lessons like that, one already needs to know music reading and
the instrument. So I'm not recommending those lessons. I'm telling
that to keep from being a fibber about "one session."
I have a lot of facility with calligraphy and playing recorder now,
but I did need that session with someone who could say "Oh! Tongue
against the roof of your mouth, 'duh,' rather than the back of your
teen "tuh," and "Dip the pen about halfway to the top of the
reservoir, and then scrape off the excess; or some people use a piece
of paper towel..." [in a way I can't describe in writing, but could
show you in person]."
So I think renting a piccolo without going straight from there to a
half hour session with someone who can play flute and piccolo would be
a recipe for frustration and tears. But finding someone, anyone, high
school marching band piccolo player, or someone from the local
orchestra, or a flute teacher, and ask for a half hour session and
demonstration of the instruments... that would be fun!
Sandra
Jenny Cyphers
***I am now a great believer in letting a child learn an instrument the way
they see fit - if that means lessons and exams, then fine, if it means just
exploring and playing then also fine. Personally, I'm staring to wonder if
that inate musicality that some people have can be crushed by too formal
lessons.***
My husband is one of those people that can pick up just about any instrument and make it sound good, without ever having touched it before, let alone having any music lessons.
Our house is full of music instruments. We seem to have a constant influx and outgo of instruments. More stay than leave. Both my girls have fiddled around with musical instruments. Chamille has a drum set in her bedroom right now. She rarely practices, but when she plays, she's good. She's been good at playing the drums since she was old enough to sit on the throne.
I really believe motivation and desire is far more important to learning an instrument than the technicalities. If the piccolo turns out to be too hard at first, what does the kid have to lose? You can still go out and get a flute to learn on if it seems like that might be better. That's all part of the trial and error part of life! Learning is still happening! In the meantime help keep the frustration levels down, if they seem higher than they need be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they see fit - if that means lessons and exams, then fine, if it means just
exploring and playing then also fine. Personally, I'm staring to wonder if
that inate musicality that some people have can be crushed by too formal
lessons.***
My husband is one of those people that can pick up just about any instrument and make it sound good, without ever having touched it before, let alone having any music lessons.
Our house is full of music instruments. We seem to have a constant influx and outgo of instruments. More stay than leave. Both my girls have fiddled around with musical instruments. Chamille has a drum set in her bedroom right now. She rarely practices, but when she plays, she's good. She's been good at playing the drums since she was old enough to sit on the throne.
I really believe motivation and desire is far more important to learning an instrument than the technicalities. If the piccolo turns out to be too hard at first, what does the kid have to lose? You can still go out and get a flute to learn on if it seems like that might be better. That's all part of the trial and error part of life! Learning is still happening! In the meantime help keep the frustration levels down, if they seem higher than they need be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am now a great believer in letting a child learn an instrument
the way
they see fit - if that means lessons and exams, then fine, if it means
just
exploring and playing then also fine. Personally, I'm staring to
wonder if
that inate musicality that some people have can be crushed by too formal
lessons.-=-
I agree, but your brother did have enough lessons to learn how to make
the tone and to know what the symbols on the fingering chart meant.
That's enough, for some people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the way
they see fit - if that means lessons and exams, then fine, if it means
just
exploring and playing then also fine. Personally, I'm staring to
wonder if
that inate musicality that some people have can be crushed by too formal
lessons.-=-
I agree, but your brother did have enough lessons to learn how to make
the tone and to know what the symbols on the fingering chart meant.
That's enough, for some people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Clare Kirkpatrick
I taught myself to play the piano, with basic help from my Grandma. When my
parents had the money for lessons, I was started by my teacher at Grade 5!
You don't need a teacher to learn music. It helps, but not if it puts you
off!
My 6yo is learning recorder, from a book. She's lucky - both DH and I can
read music, and he is a talented bass guitarist. But we will pay for
lessons if she seems to want them, and not hesitate to stop them if she
changes her mind.
I think that learning to play an instrument is much like learning to read -
push too much and it can stop them enjoying reading completely, but give
them help when they need it, just the right amount at just the right time,
and they'll thrive, especially if, in the case of music, they have a passion
and a talent for it.
I'm interested in others' views because of our situation with our oldest -
she wants to learn saxophone eventually and we have been advised to start
off with a clarinet until she's in her early teens. We're going with seeing
how often she likes to practice her recorder before we invest the rather
larger amount of money in a clarinet, even though she's really very keen to
get one.
Clare
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: 11 March 2010 20:12
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Ideas for facilitating music interest?
-=-I am now a great believer in letting a child learn an instrument
the way
they see fit - if that means lessons and exams, then fine, if it means
just
exploring and playing then also fine. Personally, I'm staring to
wonder if
that inate musicality that some people have can be crushed by too formal
lessons.-=-
I agree, but your brother did have enough lessons to learn how to make
the tone and to know what the symbols on the fingering chart meant.
That's enough, for some people.
Sandra
parents had the money for lessons, I was started by my teacher at Grade 5!
You don't need a teacher to learn music. It helps, but not if it puts you
off!
My 6yo is learning recorder, from a book. She's lucky - both DH and I can
read music, and he is a talented bass guitarist. But we will pay for
lessons if she seems to want them, and not hesitate to stop them if she
changes her mind.
I think that learning to play an instrument is much like learning to read -
push too much and it can stop them enjoying reading completely, but give
them help when they need it, just the right amount at just the right time,
and they'll thrive, especially if, in the case of music, they have a passion
and a talent for it.
I'm interested in others' views because of our situation with our oldest -
she wants to learn saxophone eventually and we have been advised to start
off with a clarinet until she's in her early teens. We're going with seeing
how often she likes to practice her recorder before we invest the rather
larger amount of money in a clarinet, even though she's really very keen to
get one.
Clare
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: 11 March 2010 20:12
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Ideas for facilitating music interest?
-=-I am now a great believer in letting a child learn an instrument
the way
they see fit - if that means lessons and exams, then fine, if it means
just
exploring and playing then also fine. Personally, I'm staring to
wonder if
that inate musicality that some people have can be crushed by too formal
lessons.-=-
I agree, but your brother did have enough lessons to learn how to make
the tone and to know what the symbols on the fingering chart meant.
That's enough, for some people.
Sandra
Rebecca
> So I think renting a piccolo without going straight from there to aAfter thinking this over a little (and digging deep into my dusty memories), I agree with Sandra on this. Access to a mentor, even if it's short-term, would likely be a very fun and encouraging way to begin.
> half hour session with someone who can play flute and piccolo would be
> a recipe for frustration and tears. But finding someone, anyone, high
> school marching band piccolo player, or someone from the local
> orchestra, or a flute teacher, and ask for a half hour session and
> demonstration of the instruments... that would be fun!
After receiving my flute, I did attend an afternoon workshop to help me learn to make sounds. And then I started band (where I did have access to someone who understood the instrument, even if he wasn't an expert flautist). I also played piano previous to this and was reading music. So, my experience really can't be compared to someone who is wanting to explore and try an instrument for the first time.
I was getting over a cold when my mom brought home my flute and I remember sitting on the couch trying to get the thing to make a noise and thinking that I'd never be able to play it! I'm glad I didn't have to wallow in those feelings for long.
So, yeah. Supported exploration is likely the most encouraging route.
- Rebecca
Lyla Wolfenstein
my daughter just had a resurgence in her interest in piano - after a long deschooling break (3years without piano lessons specifically, 1.5 years without school).
she hasn't touched the piano in 3 years, and was at a bookstore with her unschooling teen crowd and found a book of amanda palmer's sheet music and became extremely inspired - to the extent that she was willing to buy it with her own money (i bought it for her) - she came straight home and worked on a song on the piano for a couple hours. she just needed me to remind her of how to read the bar, and she took it from there.
i have never seen her so excited about piano or music. yes, she learned to read music when she took lessons, but i actually think i could have shown her how in 15 minutes, because she was so engaged and inpsired by it. her friend is going to learn the chords on guitar so they can play it together.
when she was taking lessons, we tried everything to help her "stick with it" :/ - switched teachers several times, switched to every other week, etc. she loved one teacher - didn't really love the rest, and would have quit long before if we hadn't pushed. if she'd quit earlier, i think she'd have picked it back up earlier. i really regret not listening to her about that.
warmly, lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
she hasn't touched the piano in 3 years, and was at a bookstore with her unschooling teen crowd and found a book of amanda palmer's sheet music and became extremely inspired - to the extent that she was willing to buy it with her own money (i bought it for her) - she came straight home and worked on a song on the piano for a couple hours. she just needed me to remind her of how to read the bar, and she took it from there.
i have never seen her so excited about piano or music. yes, she learned to read music when she took lessons, but i actually think i could have shown her how in 15 minutes, because she was so engaged and inpsired by it. her friend is going to learn the chords on guitar so they can play it together.
when she was taking lessons, we tried everything to help her "stick with it" :/ - switched teachers several times, switched to every other week, etc. she loved one teacher - didn't really love the rest, and would have quit long before if we hadn't pushed. if she'd quit earlier, i think she'd have picked it back up earlier. i really regret not listening to her about that.
warmly, lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Clare Kirkpatrick
" i really regret not listening to her about that."
Isn't this the key to the whole discussion? Yes, a teacher is invaluable to
a child who wants one, who is frustrated with just trying things out, who
wants to further their learning, or get past something that they can't seem
to get past alone. And if your child, who has a recorder to play with wants
lessons, then you find a way to provide that. I think what I'm saying is
that I don't think that lessons are inevitably necessary - they might be,
and they might not. Listening to your child and what he/she wants or feels
he/she needs at any one time will tell you whether or not lessons are
necessary.
I don't play recorder, I play piano. But, with the very good book we have,
my daughter and I have been able to work out how to play it, my daughter has
learnt to read music using the book, not by me teaching her, but I've been
with her every time she's practised so she can ask for help if she needs it.
She takes it when she visits my parents-in-law - my MIL plays clarinet and
if my BIL is there, he usually has his flute. They usually have a 'jamming'
session together and I imagine (I'm never with them) that they help her with
hints and tips. I'm not anticipating her needing or wanting any formal
lessons until she gets a clarinet but even then, we'll continue playing it
by ear. What I want most is that she loves it and if she needs lessons to
do that, that's fine, and if she categorically wants to only play by
herself, with no teacher, in order to love it, then that's fine too :-)
I am enjoying this discussion hugely - I was very surprised when my MIL told
me she didn't insist on my BIL continuing his flute lessons when he asked to
stop. She doesn't take children very seriously usually, but as a musician,
she seemed to really understand how much more important it was that he loved
music, than that he learnt to do it perfectly according to the book.
Clare
Isn't this the key to the whole discussion? Yes, a teacher is invaluable to
a child who wants one, who is frustrated with just trying things out, who
wants to further their learning, or get past something that they can't seem
to get past alone. And if your child, who has a recorder to play with wants
lessons, then you find a way to provide that. I think what I'm saying is
that I don't think that lessons are inevitably necessary - they might be,
and they might not. Listening to your child and what he/she wants or feels
he/she needs at any one time will tell you whether or not lessons are
necessary.
I don't play recorder, I play piano. But, with the very good book we have,
my daughter and I have been able to work out how to play it, my daughter has
learnt to read music using the book, not by me teaching her, but I've been
with her every time she's practised so she can ask for help if she needs it.
She takes it when she visits my parents-in-law - my MIL plays clarinet and
if my BIL is there, he usually has his flute. They usually have a 'jamming'
session together and I imagine (I'm never with them) that they help her with
hints and tips. I'm not anticipating her needing or wanting any formal
lessons until she gets a clarinet but even then, we'll continue playing it
by ear. What I want most is that she loves it and if she needs lessons to
do that, that's fine, and if she categorically wants to only play by
herself, with no teacher, in order to love it, then that's fine too :-)
I am enjoying this discussion hugely - I was very surprised when my MIL told
me she didn't insist on my BIL continuing his flute lessons when he asked to
stop. She doesn't take children very seriously usually, but as a musician,
she seemed to really understand how much more important it was that he loved
music, than that he learnt to do it perfectly according to the book.
Clare
Jenny Cyphers
***So I think renting a piccolo without going straight from there to a
half hour session with someone who can play flute and piccolo would be
a recipe for frustration and tears. But finding someone, anyone, high
school marching band piccolo player, or someone from the local
orchestra, or a flute teacher, and ask for a half hour session and
demonstration of the instruments. .. that would be fun!***
Right! My kids have always had their dad around to ask!
Not very long ago, John was doing some electric guitar, kind of complicated stuff, for 2 of Chamille's friends. At first I thought he was showing off, and maybe he was a bit, but when I jokingly said something to that effect, they all gave the, "what are you talking about?" sort of look and explained to me that, this was exactly the best way to learn new material. John then went on to explain that some really great musicians have found ways to hide what their hands are doing so that others can't steal their stuff. So, demonstrations are VERY helpful.
I found that to be true of crocheting too. I have some really good "how to" books, but it wasn't until I sat down with someone that did it, that it made sense to me. Youtube videos have been helpful too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
half hour session with someone who can play flute and piccolo would be
a recipe for frustration and tears. But finding someone, anyone, high
school marching band piccolo player, or someone from the local
orchestra, or a flute teacher, and ask for a half hour session and
demonstration of the instruments. .. that would be fun!***
Right! My kids have always had their dad around to ask!
Not very long ago, John was doing some electric guitar, kind of complicated stuff, for 2 of Chamille's friends. At first I thought he was showing off, and maybe he was a bit, but when I jokingly said something to that effect, they all gave the, "what are you talking about?" sort of look and explained to me that, this was exactly the best way to learn new material. John then went on to explain that some really great musicians have found ways to hide what their hands are doing so that others can't steal their stuff. So, demonstrations are VERY helpful.
I found that to be true of crocheting too. I have some really good "how to" books, but it wasn't until I sat down with someone that did it, that it made sense to me. Youtube videos have been helpful too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Isn't this the key to the whole discussion? Yes, a teacher is
invaluable to
a child who wants one, who is frustrated with just trying things out,
who
wants to further their learning, or get past something that they can't
seem
to get past alone.-=-
"A teacher is invaluable" might be going too far. But seeing someone
actually DO the thing one is trying to do is helpful, even if the
other person can't see the student back. And better yet, if someone
who has knitted says "Maybe you could hold the needles like this" or
someone who has thrown pots says "You'd know this if you had an
electric wheel, but you're kicking the wrong way," that's helpful. It
doesn't mean they are invaluable teachers. It means the learner got
some help, just a little, just enough. Not "a lesson" or "a course."
-=-I don't play recorder, I play piano. But, with the very good book
we have,
my daughter and I have been able to work out how to play it, my
daughter has
learnt to read music using the book, not by me teaching her, but I've
been
with her every time she's practised so she can ask for help if she
needs it.-=-
Piano is the ultimate mechanical musical instrument. You don't have
to learn how to hold your mouth, or how to hold the piano or how to
breathe or tongue, or whether the inside of your mouth needs to be
kept wet or dry. :-)
Pam's daughter Roxana figured piano out without lessons. That was
awesome.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
invaluable to
a child who wants one, who is frustrated with just trying things out,
who
wants to further their learning, or get past something that they can't
seem
to get past alone.-=-
"A teacher is invaluable" might be going too far. But seeing someone
actually DO the thing one is trying to do is helpful, even if the
other person can't see the student back. And better yet, if someone
who has knitted says "Maybe you could hold the needles like this" or
someone who has thrown pots says "You'd know this if you had an
electric wheel, but you're kicking the wrong way," that's helpful. It
doesn't mean they are invaluable teachers. It means the learner got
some help, just a little, just enough. Not "a lesson" or "a course."
-=-I don't play recorder, I play piano. But, with the very good book
we have,
my daughter and I have been able to work out how to play it, my
daughter has
learnt to read music using the book, not by me teaching her, but I've
been
with her every time she's practised so she can ask for help if she
needs it.-=-
Piano is the ultimate mechanical musical instrument. You don't have
to learn how to hold your mouth, or how to hold the piano or how to
breathe or tongue, or whether the inside of your mouth needs to be
kept wet or dry. :-)
Pam's daughter Roxana figured piano out without lessons. That was
awesome.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I think one of the things that children envision when they want to learn an instrument and go to take classes
is that they are going to learn to play songs. Unfortunately most have to do scales and other things before the
instructor teaches them even a very simple song they can play.
That is the reason I shared my brothers story with the flute. Luckily when we had classes in school it
was just to teach one song that semester, so everyone learned , even the people like me who are not'
musically inclined. My brother who had a ear for music was able to figure it out how to play other songs by ears from just
learning that one song.
It was the same way with a guitar. My mom showed us how to play a simple song and my brother was really into it
Then they both tinkered with the guitar and by the time my brother was 10 or younger he was the one tuning my moms guitar.
The only time he took classes was way into his late teens when he did a very advanced week of group classes with some famous
acoustic guitarist in a music school.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is that they are going to learn to play songs. Unfortunately most have to do scales and other things before the
instructor teaches them even a very simple song they can play.
That is the reason I shared my brothers story with the flute. Luckily when we had classes in school it
was just to teach one song that semester, so everyone learned , even the people like me who are not'
musically inclined. My brother who had a ear for music was able to figure it out how to play other songs by ears from just
learning that one song.
It was the same way with a guitar. My mom showed us how to play a simple song and my brother was really into it
Then they both tinkered with the guitar and by the time my brother was 10 or younger he was the one tuning my moms guitar.
The only time he took classes was way into his late teens when he did a very advanced week of group classes with some famous
acoustic guitarist in a music school.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
-=-I thought I'd read a suggestion to rent a piccolo for her to just play with a little. I can't seem to find that message (so maybe I made it up!) but it seemed like a great idea to me-=-
Yes, I said that. :-)
-=-And, perhaps, rent a flute, too, so that she can play with making sounds on both of them.-=-
That seems like a good idea if money isn't a problem.
-=-Being part of band (instead of having private lessons) means that I did teach myself to play the flute competently, so it is possible.-=-
I had a similar experience--I brought myself along quickly because it was so much fun to actually make music! Totally possible!! Although when I did have private lessons (when I was begging for them) I improved so quickly--and had to undo quite a few bad habits.
Joanna
Yes, I said that. :-)
-=-And, perhaps, rent a flute, too, so that she can play with making sounds on both of them.-=-
That seems like a good idea if money isn't a problem.
-=-Being part of band (instead of having private lessons) means that I did teach myself to play the flute competently, so it is possible.-=-
I had a similar experience--I brought myself along quickly because it was so much fun to actually make music! Totally possible!! Although when I did have private lessons (when I was begging for them) I improved so quickly--and had to undo quite a few bad habits.
Joanna
Joanna
--- In [email protected], "Joanna" <ridingmom@...> wrote:
Joanna
>And you can ask the guy at the music store if he knows how to play enough to make sounds and show your daughter a little about how to play.
>
> -=-I thought I'd read a suggestion to rent a piccolo for her to just play with a little. I can't seem to find that message (so maybe I made it up!) but it seemed like a great idea to me-=-
>
> Yes, I said that. :-)
>
> -=-And, perhaps, rent a flute, too, so that she can play with making sounds on both of them.-=-
>
> That seems like a good idea if money isn't a problem.
Joanna
[email protected]
My 15 year old son has been playing the bass guitar for 3 years now without any lessons. His father played guitar but no where near as well as Kaleb plays. His father also passed away 2 years ago without really showing Kaleb anything as far as guitar playing goes. Kaleb has a friend that he did learn a few things from but for the most part, he learned how to play on his own. He has been in a band now for a year. They have been playing for several months at local venues around the Northeast Ohio area. He actually has a show tonight. I don't know if I'm allowed to post any show info on this list. I'm just a proud mom. If anyone appreciates hard rock / heavy metal music and lives in the Northeast Ohio area, e-mail me privately for Kaleb's band's schedule. They have 7 shows scheduled for the next 3 months.
Back to the topic, I learned how to play the recorder in 4th grade at school but other than that, I have never had any musical ability nor have I wanted to. I think that either a person has the musical gift or doesn't. Of course, lessons will help someone improve but if their heart isn't really in it, is it really worth it? I also believe that some instruments may be much harder to learn than others. If your daughter really wants to learn to play the piccolo, I would say that you should rent one to let her play around with. If she wants lessons, if you can, get her lessons. She will be able to make the decision if she is enjoying it and wants to continue or not. She'll never know unless she tries.
I've told Kaleb many times that if he ever decides that he does not want to play in the band anymore that he can stop. There are times when he's tired. And recently he's had some problems with his hand that have led us to some nerve testing and seeing a specialist. He practices at least 3 times or more per week. He also writes the music and lyrics as well. And he is the lead singer in the band. He loves it but there are times that it is tiring. I enjoy it as well but would support him in whatever he wanted to do.
Continue to support your daughter's interests if playing the piccolo is what she wants to do, she could go on to be great at it or she may decide she'd rather play another instrument or none at all. Good luck!!!
Take care,
Sherri
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Back to the topic, I learned how to play the recorder in 4th grade at school but other than that, I have never had any musical ability nor have I wanted to. I think that either a person has the musical gift or doesn't. Of course, lessons will help someone improve but if their heart isn't really in it, is it really worth it? I also believe that some instruments may be much harder to learn than others. If your daughter really wants to learn to play the piccolo, I would say that you should rent one to let her play around with. If she wants lessons, if you can, get her lessons. She will be able to make the decision if she is enjoying it and wants to continue or not. She'll never know unless she tries.
I've told Kaleb many times that if he ever decides that he does not want to play in the band anymore that he can stop. There are times when he's tired. And recently he's had some problems with his hand that have led us to some nerve testing and seeing a specialist. He practices at least 3 times or more per week. He also writes the music and lyrics as well. And he is the lead singer in the band. He loves it but there are times that it is tiring. I enjoy it as well but would support him in whatever he wanted to do.
Continue to support your daughter's interests if playing the piccolo is what she wants to do, she could go on to be great at it or she may decide she'd rather play another instrument or none at all. Good luck!!!
Take care,
Sherri
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
Joanna
>The very first thing my first flute teacher did was to open up a book of duets and play a simple duet with me. It was magical--MAGICAL! (I could play a bit from band in school--but mostly self-learned) The way our tones blended in the harmonies was literally intoxicating--and oh so much better than all the beginning squeaks and squawks from band class! Who knows what would have happened if I'd had the "learn the scales first" teacher--but maybe that's a question that could be asked when looking for a teacher.
> I think one of the things that children envision when they want to learn an instrument and go to take classes
> is that they are going to learn to play songs. Unfortunately most have to do scales and other things before the
> instructor teaches them even a very simple song they can play.
Joanna
Heather
My son plays the electric bass. The electric bass is easier to learn on
your own than some other instruments, I think. My son has also played
the upright acoustic bass, which is not as easy to learn without some
instruction in technique. The way one of his teachers described it is
that with an instrument like the upright acoustic bass, your body is
part of the instrument, more so than with the piano, for example. Since
the player's body is actually part of the instrument, variations in use
of the body make more difference in how the instrument sounds. With a
stringed instrument such as a violin or a bass, the arms and hands and
how they are positioned and move are a large part of how the sound is
made. For a flute, the mouth of the player could be considered part of
the instrument also, in this way of looking at it. When we first met
this teacher, he said that my son's instrument was essentially broken,
and the training in technique was to fix the part of the instrument that
was his body. His program certainly resulted in a great improvement in
the quality of sound my son could produce with the instrument. The piano
will make a satisfactory sound for a person without as much focus on
technique, and a guitar or bass guitar is also more forgiving. My son
finds it much easier to make the sounds he wants to make with an
electric bass than the acoustic upright.
Something very interesting though - the teacher mentioned above follows
a very specific method of instruction (The Rabbath Method) for the
upright acoustic bass- fingering, how to hold your arms, your body,
where to put your feet, etc. Francios Rabbath, who develped this method,
was self taught. Which perhaps was how he was able to develop what some
people think is a very superior technique for playing the upright
acoustic bass, which as well as produces better sound, protects the
musician's body from injury. He invented a new type of end pin, made of
wood, that allows the bass to sit at a whole different angle, and is an
innovative composer, as well. SO perhaps another self taught musician
could come up with a brand new technique for getting an even better
sound out of another difficult to learn instrument.
My daughter played violin for a short while- she did not want lessons to
begin with, so we rented a violin and got a beginner book with a DVD.
After a short while she found she did need some more help and decided to
try lessons - she just wasn't able to figure out on her own how to hold
the bow and instrument in a way that made a sound she liked. And more
than one lesson was needed, and lots of reminders in order to really get
the hang of it.
A book that we found very interesting is Victor Wooten's The Music
Lesson. One of the chapters talks about one way to "practice" music - he
calls it "jamming with the experts". By this he means playing along with
recordings. Youtube is a great resource, as you can observe as well as
listen. Of course a live expert is wonderful if you have one around, and
having a lesson is the most usual way to have access to an expert.
Having a musician as a relative or friend would be ideal, then the help
can be sought as it is wanted, more informally, at least to start with.
Victor is not a big fan of traditional lessons(scales, etc), and his
book might be worth a look for anyone interested in learning music,
though geared towards bass players.
My son has also used Play Along Books with CD. Play along CDs have
tracks with and without the instrument the book is for, so you can play
along with the expert, and then without. Watching live performances is
another way to observe experts- my husband used to take our son up close
to the band when we attended outdoor concerts when he was very young-
and I know he watches bass players at live performances pretty intently
now, and talks to them afterwards, too. And he listens to a wide variety
of music on his Ipod.
My son had been listening to music for a while - and wanted to start
playing bass- at about age 11. Getting an instrument was the first step.
A friend gave him an electric bass which was in pretty bad shape- we
have a relative who does repairs. My son bought a practice amp with his
birthday money. He played on his own for maybe 6 months. He picked out a
book that helped with fingerings, and played along with music he liked.
He asked for lessons then, and we were lucky enough to find an
unschooling dad and musician to barter with for lessons. The lessons
often look like lots of playing music together. They have never used a
regular program together, like many teachers prefer to do- you know -
Book 1, 2, 3, and maybe the reward when you are done is to choose your
own music. They have from the first day picked music out together to
play- sometimes my son brings something, sometimes the teacher brings
something. This teacher had a student group for awhile- and each member
picked a few songs, and they came up with the arrangements, and composed
some of the songs. The arrangement of Jimi Hendrix's Little Wing for two
electric guitars, one bass, and two cellos was incredible. I think it is
a good idea, if you can, if and when your child does want to find a
teacher, to look for one who is flexible, and works with the student to
choose music.
When my son started playing the upright acoustic bass, he did this at a
summer camp that offered an introduction to various instruments- he had
a few lessons there from college students. I don't know if other areas
offer these types of programs - this group offers afterschool programs
also, but it was a good opportunity for him. He was interested enough
after that that we bought him a used upright bass. He did want lessons
in order to be able to make a sound that was satisfying - so he took a
few more casual lessons from one of the college students. After a while
he started more traditional lessons on the upright bass, technique
oriented, as mentioned above. He has also played with a youth
orchestra, high school jazz band, state-wide adjudications, lots of
other groups, etc. He isn't doing any of that now. He tried all that for
a couple of years- the structured lessons, classical music, jazz, and
then stopped playing any music for 6 months. It was kind of like a tide
he got swept along on, in a way. He started making choices for reasons
that ultimately weren't the right ones for him. He was getting a lot of
positive feedback, and wanted to become a better player, and so would
do anything that anyone suggested would make him a better player, then
ended up involved in a bunch of stuff he wasn't thrilled about. He
hasn't played the upright acoustic in several months. He is playing
electric, playing with a few bands, learning about sound engineering,
doing beat making, sampling, composing. The latest thing he is into is
sampling video game music as part of his compositions- really cool stuff!
Heather in NY
your own than some other instruments, I think. My son has also played
the upright acoustic bass, which is not as easy to learn without some
instruction in technique. The way one of his teachers described it is
that with an instrument like the upright acoustic bass, your body is
part of the instrument, more so than with the piano, for example. Since
the player's body is actually part of the instrument, variations in use
of the body make more difference in how the instrument sounds. With a
stringed instrument such as a violin or a bass, the arms and hands and
how they are positioned and move are a large part of how the sound is
made. For a flute, the mouth of the player could be considered part of
the instrument also, in this way of looking at it. When we first met
this teacher, he said that my son's instrument was essentially broken,
and the training in technique was to fix the part of the instrument that
was his body. His program certainly resulted in a great improvement in
the quality of sound my son could produce with the instrument. The piano
will make a satisfactory sound for a person without as much focus on
technique, and a guitar or bass guitar is also more forgiving. My son
finds it much easier to make the sounds he wants to make with an
electric bass than the acoustic upright.
Something very interesting though - the teacher mentioned above follows
a very specific method of instruction (The Rabbath Method) for the
upright acoustic bass- fingering, how to hold your arms, your body,
where to put your feet, etc. Francios Rabbath, who develped this method,
was self taught. Which perhaps was how he was able to develop what some
people think is a very superior technique for playing the upright
acoustic bass, which as well as produces better sound, protects the
musician's body from injury. He invented a new type of end pin, made of
wood, that allows the bass to sit at a whole different angle, and is an
innovative composer, as well. SO perhaps another self taught musician
could come up with a brand new technique for getting an even better
sound out of another difficult to learn instrument.
My daughter played violin for a short while- she did not want lessons to
begin with, so we rented a violin and got a beginner book with a DVD.
After a short while she found she did need some more help and decided to
try lessons - she just wasn't able to figure out on her own how to hold
the bow and instrument in a way that made a sound she liked. And more
than one lesson was needed, and lots of reminders in order to really get
the hang of it.
A book that we found very interesting is Victor Wooten's The Music
Lesson. One of the chapters talks about one way to "practice" music - he
calls it "jamming with the experts". By this he means playing along with
recordings. Youtube is a great resource, as you can observe as well as
listen. Of course a live expert is wonderful if you have one around, and
having a lesson is the most usual way to have access to an expert.
Having a musician as a relative or friend would be ideal, then the help
can be sought as it is wanted, more informally, at least to start with.
Victor is not a big fan of traditional lessons(scales, etc), and his
book might be worth a look for anyone interested in learning music,
though geared towards bass players.
My son has also used Play Along Books with CD. Play along CDs have
tracks with and without the instrument the book is for, so you can play
along with the expert, and then without. Watching live performances is
another way to observe experts- my husband used to take our son up close
to the band when we attended outdoor concerts when he was very young-
and I know he watches bass players at live performances pretty intently
now, and talks to them afterwards, too. And he listens to a wide variety
of music on his Ipod.
My son had been listening to music for a while - and wanted to start
playing bass- at about age 11. Getting an instrument was the first step.
A friend gave him an electric bass which was in pretty bad shape- we
have a relative who does repairs. My son bought a practice amp with his
birthday money. He played on his own for maybe 6 months. He picked out a
book that helped with fingerings, and played along with music he liked.
He asked for lessons then, and we were lucky enough to find an
unschooling dad and musician to barter with for lessons. The lessons
often look like lots of playing music together. They have never used a
regular program together, like many teachers prefer to do- you know -
Book 1, 2, 3, and maybe the reward when you are done is to choose your
own music. They have from the first day picked music out together to
play- sometimes my son brings something, sometimes the teacher brings
something. This teacher had a student group for awhile- and each member
picked a few songs, and they came up with the arrangements, and composed
some of the songs. The arrangement of Jimi Hendrix's Little Wing for two
electric guitars, one bass, and two cellos was incredible. I think it is
a good idea, if you can, if and when your child does want to find a
teacher, to look for one who is flexible, and works with the student to
choose music.
When my son started playing the upright acoustic bass, he did this at a
summer camp that offered an introduction to various instruments- he had
a few lessons there from college students. I don't know if other areas
offer these types of programs - this group offers afterschool programs
also, but it was a good opportunity for him. He was interested enough
after that that we bought him a used upright bass. He did want lessons
in order to be able to make a sound that was satisfying - so he took a
few more casual lessons from one of the college students. After a while
he started more traditional lessons on the upright bass, technique
oriented, as mentioned above. He has also played with a youth
orchestra, high school jazz band, state-wide adjudications, lots of
other groups, etc. He isn't doing any of that now. He tried all that for
a couple of years- the structured lessons, classical music, jazz, and
then stopped playing any music for 6 months. It was kind of like a tide
he got swept along on, in a way. He started making choices for reasons
that ultimately weren't the right ones for him. He was getting a lot of
positive feedback, and wanted to become a better player, and so would
do anything that anyone suggested would make him a better player, then
ended up involved in a bunch of stuff he wasn't thrilled about. He
hasn't played the upright acoustic in several months. He is playing
electric, playing with a few bands, learning about sound engineering,
doing beat making, sampling, composing. The latest thing he is into is
sampling video game music as part of his compositions- really cool stuff!
Heather in NY
Heather
KaitKalKenz3@... wrote:
Is the problem with his hand coming from the playing, or is it
unrelated? I know my son, also a bass player, was helped with issues of
pain in his hands after long periods of playing with advice from music
teachers and some instruction in technique. That is another benefit of
having some instruction in technique- learning how to play without
hurting yourself. My son has been through periods when he was playing 3-
6 hours a day with performances, rehearsals, and practice, and it can be
really rough on your body.
Though I think there are many benefits to learning on your own, too.
Heather
>Hi Sherri
>
> I've told Kaleb many times that if he ever decides that he does not
> want to play in the band anymore that he can stop. There are times
> when he's tired. And recently he's had some problems with his hand
> that have led us to some nerve testing and seeing a specialist. He
> practices at least 3 times or more per week. He also writes the music
> and lyrics as well. And he is the lead singer in the band. He loves it
> but there are times that it is tiring. I enjoy it as well but would
> support him in whatever he wanted to do.
>
>
Is the problem with his hand coming from the playing, or is it
unrelated? I know my son, also a bass player, was helped with issues of
pain in his hands after long periods of playing with advice from music
teachers and some instruction in technique. That is another benefit of
having some instruction in technique- learning how to play without
hurting yourself. My son has been through periods when he was playing 3-
6 hours a day with performances, rehearsals, and practice, and it can be
really rough on your body.
Though I think there are many benefits to learning on your own, too.
Heather
Sandra Dodd
-=-The very first thing my first flute teacher did was to open up a
book of duets and play a simple duet with me. It was magical--MAGICAL!
(I could play a bit from band in school--but mostly self-learned) The
way our tones blended in the harmonies was literally intoxicating--and
oh so much better than all the beginning squeaks and squawks from band
class! Who knows what would have happened if I'd had the "learn the
scales first" teacher--but maybe that's a question that could be asked
when looking for a teacher.-=-
Although other books have been published in the 60 years since, the
best recorder book is The Trapp Family How to Play Recorder or
whatever it is. Old-timey-looking, dark brown cover. But when people
want to learn recorder, I buy them a copy of that and give it to them
and go through the first two or three lessons with them. There's a
duet on every page, from the time they know the simplest three notes
of all. Nice ones, too.
I did this most recently three years ago with a math-minded adult who
didn't read music. I explained music as the graph it is, told him
what was tone, what was time, and he was reading music within days.
He amazed me; it was fun.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
book of duets and play a simple duet with me. It was magical--MAGICAL!
(I could play a bit from band in school--but mostly self-learned) The
way our tones blended in the harmonies was literally intoxicating--and
oh so much better than all the beginning squeaks and squawks from band
class! Who knows what would have happened if I'd had the "learn the
scales first" teacher--but maybe that's a question that could be asked
when looking for a teacher.-=-
Although other books have been published in the 60 years since, the
best recorder book is The Trapp Family How to Play Recorder or
whatever it is. Old-timey-looking, dark brown cover. But when people
want to learn recorder, I buy them a copy of that and give it to them
and go through the first two or three lessons with them. There's a
duet on every page, from the time they know the simplest three notes
of all. Nice ones, too.
I did this most recently three years ago with a math-minded adult who
didn't read music. I explained music as the graph it is, told him
what was tone, what was time, and he was reading music within days.
He amazed me; it was fun.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
> -=-My daughter played violin for a short while- she did not want lessons toI think that videos and/or DVD's could very well substitute for a live person at first, though. Sure, probably not quite as useful, but way less pressure, the player can see a good model in action, AND they have the information to determine whether they need further instruction or not.
> begin with, so we rented a violin and got a beginner book with a DVD.
> After a short while she found she did need some more help and decided to
> try lessons - she just wasn't able to figure out on her own how to hold
> the bow and instrument in a way that made a sound she liked. And more
> than one lesson was needed, and lots of reminders in order to really get
> the hang of it.-=-
>
Joanna
Heather
>Yes, this was the point in mentioning this. Having the instrument and
>
>
> > -=-My daughter played violin for a short while- she did not want
> lessons to
> > begin with, so we rented a violin and got a beginner book with a DVD.
> > After a short while she found she did need some more help and
> decided to
> > try lessons - she just wasn't able to figure out on her own how to hold
> > the bow and instrument in a way that made a sound she liked. And more
> > than one lesson was needed, and lots of reminders in order to really
> get
> > the hang of it.-=-
> >
>
> **I think that videos and/or DVD's could very well substitute for a
> live person at first, though. Sure, probably not quite as useful, but
> way less pressure, the player can see a good model in action, AND they
> have the information to determine whether they need further
> instruction or not.**
>
book with DVD was a comfortable place for her to start. Then she decided
she wanted help from an experienced person, that she needed that. The
teacher did a lot of guiding her arms and hands gently to where they
needed to be to make a sweeter sound, and also playing along with her.
Over and over.
Whereas if we had told her she must have the help from another person
right away she may not ever have even gotten that far, to even trying
the instrument. She is often very anxious about meeting new people.
Heather