BlueOcean

Hi, everyone. I'm Lisa (I will go by my nickname of Blue, since I'm thinking
there will be quite a few Lisas on a list this active), a 46-year-old
Florida mama who has home-schooled her kids for the past 20 years. I only
have a 17 (today!)-year-old, and an almost-15-year-old left who are "school
age" (don't panic--I'm learning the ropes here! LOL). I've been reading
Holt, Gatto, and others for years, but could never seem to totally "let go"
and entrust my kids with their own educations (gosh, when I type it out like
that, it sounds terrible!). Okay, let me say that in a way that doesn't make
me feel like an awful mom...hrm...got it. I've always felt like it was my
responsibility as a mom to "teach" my kids. In fact, I teach everyone's
kids. Oh, dear...is there hope for me?

On the positive side (thank goodness there is one--and also that there is
such a thing as parentheses, or I'd be sunk), I LOVE to learn. Like,
seriously. I am constantly going off on some rabbit trail because of a
question my kids ask me. Why, just this morning, one of them asked me how
"soap operas" got their name. I wagered a guess, then looked it up so we
would both know (I was half right! Score!).

I'd better stop there for now. Glad to "meet" you all. Please be patient
with me. I'm new to actually implementing unschooling, but definitely not
new to radical new ideas, particularly with regard to family individuality
and thinking with one's own brain. :)

Hugs,
Blue
New Port Richey, FL

Sandra Dodd

-=- Please be patient with me. -=-

All but that part was peachy. People will continue the speed and
level of discussion they usually have. People who are new to
unschooling should catch up on the side. It's usually a pretty quick-
moving list, and once the ideas are out there, it's not about
individuals to be patient with, but about ideas flying!!

Welcome, but you might need to duck. <G>

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BlueOcean

By "Please be patient with me", I meant "please don't crucify me for
transgressing occasionally if I say something that doesn't jive with
unschooling". ;)

And I'm not unaccustomed to ducking. I have five kids. LOL

Blue

----- Original Message -----
All but that part was peachy. People will continue the speed and
level of discussion they usually have. People who are new to
unschooling should catch up on the side. It's usually a pretty quick-
moving list, and once the ideas are out there, it's not about
individuals to be patient with, but about ideas flying!!

Welcome, but you might need to duck. <G>

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 9, 2010, at 4:25 PM, BlueOcean wrote:

> I LOVE to learn. Like,
> seriously. I am constantly going off on some rabbit trail because of a
> question my kids ask me.


I'm the same way, more so when I was younger. And I never thought of
this before but what people label "love to learn" might more clearly
be labeled "love to pull in information". I have a head full of bits
and pieces that don't fit into too many boxes other than the one
labeled "Interesting stuff" ;-) The collection is good for playing
Jeopardy and Trivial Pursuit!

(School probably "works" best and easiest for those with a big need
to fill an "Interesting stuff" box. Stuff just gets sucked in without
much effort. That drive gets labeled smart but it's a personality
quirk. (And by "work" I mean, kids can spit stuff back for tests.
That doesn't necessarily translate to the knowledge working in real
life.))

Once people get past the learning paradigm of a teacher putting
information into a kid's head (or making the kid pull it in), the
image they grasp of what unschooling looks like is a child pulling
information in all on their own. (Ironically Pam just posted that was
her first question as a newbie.)

Some kids will pull stuff in. That's their personality. And their new-
to-unschooling moms think unschooling is working :-) But for most
kids learning looks like playing. And if the parent expects
unschooling to look like kids pulling in information, the parent
thinks unschooling isn't working. But what's not working is the
parent's understanding of how people learn.

Real learning is trying things out to see what happens. It's -- often
as a side effect, or an unconscious working toward -- building an
understanding of how things work by working with them. It's making
connections between one thing and another. The experimenting,
refining and connecting happens on an "as needed" -- to the learner!
-- basis. What drives the processes is whatever the learner wants
from the experience. The goal may be deep or surface or seem to
outsiders as if it had nothing to do with what's "supposed" to be
learned from the experience.

Most people grasp that way of learning. It's what most people use for
casual interests. What is hard to grasp is how that chaotic random
process that lacks the goal of getting "all someone needs to know"
could possibly work to get "all someone needs to know" into them. How
could it get a body of knowledge about math and science and history?

That paradigm, that the goal is "all one needs to know", is one of
the big roadblocks to getting unschooling. To get unschooling, people
need to redefine "all one needs to know". They have the school
definition. In school "all one needs to know" is a generic collection
of information and skills from which people will pick and choose what
they need to form a foundation for further learning.

Logically the school definition sounds like a great idea. It's
handing kids the materials and tools to do whatever they want as
adults. One problem with that idea is kids aren't just handed all
that stuff. They're made to work for 12+ years to cram it into their
heads. Another problem is that cramming in information is counter to
how people naturally learn. We don't learn naturally by memorizing
other people's pre-assembled understanding of the world. We are
hardwired to assemble our own understanding.

It *seems* incredibly inefficient to build our own understanding from
scratch! And *if* someone's goal is to draw in a particular set of
knowledge it definitely is inefficient. But, again, humans aren't
designed to suck in a set of information and then use it. We're
designed to pull in and figure out what we need as we need it and
refine our understanding as we go along.

What's profound about natural learning is that the understanding we
build for ourselves easily becomes generalized because we're already
pulling the understanding from lots of different contexts. Unlike
school, we don't memorize an expert's (the teachers, a textbook
author's) explanation of how something works. We build our own
understanding from working with something for personally meaningful
reasons.

If someone can redefine "all one needs to know" to the ability to
explore and figure out how to get something to work for them *and*
then trust that that is enough, they can get past that big initial
hump between them and "getting" unschooling.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-One problem with that idea is kids aren't just handed all
that stuff. They're made to work for 12+ years to cram it into their
heads. Another problem is that cramming in information is counter to
how people naturally learn. We don't learn naturally by memorizing
other people's pre-assembled understanding of the world. We are
hardwired to assemble our own understanding.-=-

Another side effect of that cramming and "made to work" business is
that there are kids who decide at an early age that they "hate
history" or "hate math" or "hate science" or "hate writing" (and
reading, and poetry and literature).

My kids didn't even know what those things WERE. So they couldn't
very well "hate" the overall idea of all aspects of things that
happened before now. They couldn't begin to hate "any aspect of
observation and experimentation regarding earth/space/plants/animals/
humans."

Schoolkids can. And many do. And it makes such a nasty taste in
their mind's mouth that if something comes up that might have been
interesting, as soon as they can reject it on the grounds that it's
science or history or math, they're changing the channel, or putting
the magazine down, or changing the subject--not until they're 18, or
25, but until they die.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vidyut Kale

**Some kids will pull stuff in. That's their personality. And their new-
to-unschooling moms think unschooling is working :-) But for most
kids learning looks like playing.**

Guilty.

Also confused. I have been a fairly self-led learner, regardless of
environment, and I ditched school as soon as I could myself. I play a lot,
learn a lot, and have the unique distinction of not having earned money
through anything I didn't enjoy - ever. I have been facilitating
experiential learning for over a decade in children and adults. I have this
image of me as "allergic to school". So, I thought I had a grip on what
fun/learning looks and feels like. Now, I can't begin to understand.

There is some important distinction you are making, which I am not able to
understand and I would like to.

If a child pulls in stuff (I didn't get what all is stuff), because it is
their personality, or because they want to know, or whatever reason is there
in that little head, why would it not be unschooling? Also, what would "look
like playing" be like, as different from a child doing whatever he is out of
free will and enjoying it?

I had thought a child doing whatever it desires is learning? What is it
about pulling in stuff that makes it the exception? More importantly, what
options could be offered?

Vidyut


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Joyce also wrote this:

"What's profound about natural learning is that the understanding we
build for ourselves easily becomes generalized because we're already
pulling the understanding from lots of different contexts. Unlike
school,
we don't memorize an expert's (the teachers, a textbook
author's)
explanation of how something works. We build our own
understanding
from working with something for personally meaningful
reasons.

If someone can redefine "all one needs to know" to the ability to
explore and figure out how to get something to work for them *and*
then
trust that that is enough, they can get past that big initial
hump
between them and "getting" unschooling."
----------

If you put in front of a series of children a lot of information being handed down by an expert, some of them will pull information in, others will shut down and fold their arms over their chests and be lost in a world of frustration andconfusion and anger. The good learners, the school approved learners, are the ones who pull the information in and can regurgitate that information on to a test, in a question format, hand raised with confidence. The bad learners, the ones who won't attain "all one needs to know" can't hear the words, can't figure out which words are important, can't pull the information out because of other things being more interesting, more engaging than a lecture or a text or an educational film. The point is that unschooling will work for the child who isn't pulling in the expert's explanation of how something works. Just as it will for the child who can pull the information out. Unschooling is about recognizing that the learner is
the point of learning and not the expert's explanation and not the curriculum. And however that learning happens, kinetically, visually, experientially, through text, however it happens, unschooling is about making those moments easy to get to, and not some kind of pass fail approach to achievement and learning. Being able to explore the world and derive information from it is innate. Getting turned off of some kinds of information, feeling like you are too stupid to be able to get anything from a book or a documentary, that's more likely to be learned than innate.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 12 March, 2010 4:53:23
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] All That Jazz (or, Hi, I'm new!) :)

**Some kids will pull stuff in. That's their personality. And their new-
to-unschooling moms think unschooling is working :-) But for most
kids learning looks like playing.**

Guilty.

Also confused. I have been a fairly self-led learner, regardless of
environment, and I ditched school as soon as I could myself. I play a lot,
learn a lot, and have the unique distinction of not having earned money
through anything I didn't enjoy - ever. I have been facilitating
experiential learning for over a decade in children and adults. I have this
image of me as "allergic to school". So, I thought I had a grip on what
fun/learning looks and feels like. Now, I can't begin to understand.

There is some important distinction you are making, which I am not able to
understand and I would like to.

If a child pulls in stuff (I didn't get what all is stuff), because it is
their personality, or because they want to know, or whatever reason is there
in that little head, why would it not be unschooling? Also, what would "look
like playing" be like, as different from a child doing whatever he is out of
free will and enjoying it?

I had thought a child doing whatever it desires is learning? What is it
about pulling in stuff that makes it the exception? More importantly, what
options could be offered?

Vidyut

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Vidyut Kale wrote:

> So, I thought I had a grip on what
> fun/learning looks and feels like. Now, I can't begin to understand.
>


What can be confusing about understanding unschooling is that we're
trying to help parents facilitate a mostly invisible process inside
someone else. If a parent has an idea that learning should look a
certain way (like pulling in factoids) and a child's learning style
or interests are different (like video games, Barbies,
skateboarding), the parent will assume the child isn't learning.

Maybe this will help: Unschooling is what parents do for their kids
to facilitate natural learning. Kids learn, they don't unschool.

(I'm guilty of saying kids unschool. Lots of people are. It's useful
to say kids unschool as opposed to homeschool or go to school but it
adds a small layer of confusion as new people try to figure out
exactly what unschooling is.)


> If a child pulls in stuff (I didn't get what all is stuff),


Sorry. Stuff as in factoids. Tidbits of information about the world
that don't relate to an obvious (to others) interest.


> because it is
> their personality, or because they want to know, or whatever reason
> is there
> in that little head, why would it not be unschooling?


Maybe if you reread my post as directed toward a parent rather than
what a child should be doing it will be clearer.

Learning can look like pulling in factoids or reading books about
comets. Learning can look like watching TV. Learning can look like
swimming.

Maybe the most useful definition of what learning looks like is
engagement. If a child is engaged, he's learning.

But engagement isn't unschooling. Unschooling is a parent
*facilitating* a child's engagement. Unschooling is creating the
environment where kids can be supported in their engagement and find
new things to engage them.

We don't need to explain natural learning to kids! Kids are born with
the ability to learn. Whatever and however they explore what
interests them, kids are learning.

If a parent is looking for feedback that the invisible process of
learning is happening, joyful engagement is what to look for.

Joyce

Su Penn

On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Vidyut Kale wrote:

> **Some kids will pull stuff in. That's their personality. And their new-
> to-unschooling moms think unschooling is working :-) But for most
> kids learning looks like playing.**
>
> If a child pulls in stuff (I didn't get what all is stuff), because it is
> their personality, or because they want to know, or whatever reason is there
> in that little head, why would it not be unschooling? Also, what would "look
> like playing" be like, as different from a child doing whatever he is out of
> free will and enjoying it?

I might be able to say a few things from my house.

My older son Eric is almost 9. He doesn't like being lectured to, doesn't like people telling him what to do, finds almost anything that looks like a "worksheet" very off-putting.

This past six months he made dramatic progress in three areas I had hoped he'd progress in (unschooling fail there, I know): reading, facility with numbers, and perservering through frustration (this last one is really hard for him). He mostly did it through playing a huge, open-ended video game called Morrowind, where you have a character who interacts with other characters, you buy and sell things, how you interact with people makes a difference in how they'll treat you later. You can set goals that then require fulfilling a whole set of prior requirements: doing somebody a favor so they'll like you enough to sell you a thing you can then trade with this other person for something a third person wants...

Most of his process was invisible to us; we actually suspected for awhile that he could read better than we knew because he seemed to want that to be private--he is a very private person. I'm still not sure just how well he can read, but the fact that he can play this very text-heavy game on his own, successfully, without needing to ask my reading help anymore suggests "pretty well."

My son Carl, who will be six next week, doesn't mind people telling him what to do, mostly. He listens attentively, quickly grasps what you're saying, and likes worksheets. He's also made progress in reading and numeracy this year, mostly through reading Bob books (very simple phonics-based readers) with me, and doing math "paperwork." He likes the Math-U-See curriculum I bought during a period of weakness and doubt awhile ago. He will do a math worksheet and hang it proudly on the wall right beside a picture he drew, or then take it to his "special shelf" where his most precious things live.

Carl has also learned from video games and other things, but the fact that he does do and enjoy what looks like "homework" makes it easy to see his process, it's a familiar process so it's easy to trust, it's easy for other people to see and understand and validate. Honestly (another unschooling fail coming here) it's been a little bit of a relief to have a kid on that path--I fret a lot less about Carl and how he's doing than I do about Eric, though I fret less and less about Eric as he gets older. (I'm fretful. It's one of my weaknesses as an unschooling mom. It's why I came back to this list after some time away.)

Of course, there's a challenge with Carl, too, to be careful not to give him the message that the more conventionally academic stuff he likes to do is more important or valuable than the other stuff he does.

I'm digressing. When I saw the thing about some kids pulling in certain things and others not, I thought of Carl and Eric. It would be easy to think, "Hey, unschooling is really working for Carl--he does math worksheets for fun!" As it has been for me, it might be more challenging for a mom with a kid like Eric.

Su, mom to Eric 8; Carl, almost 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com

sheeboo2

I think the distinctions between what a parent does (Joyce: "parents facilitate a mostly invisible process inside someone else") and what happens *in* the young person are really important....and....really hard, sometimes (for me, anyway), to grasp.

-----If a parent is looking for feedback that the invisible process of learning is happening, joyful engagement is what to look for.------

I agree, but sometimes, it also looks like quiet boredom:

The other day, my daughter was sprawled on the floor in a beam of sun and dust particles. She had one arm crocked over her eyes, one leg crossed over the other, jiggling. "Wanna do something fun with me?" I asked, thinking perhaps she was bored.

"No. I'm building a pyramid," she replied.

Brie

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sorry. Stuff as in factoids. Tidbits of information about the world
that don't relate to an obvious (to others) interest.-=-

Trivia.
The difference between facts and trivia is that trivia won't be on the
test.
When someone isn't going to be tested anyway, then all their "trivia"
stays, connects to other trivia, and over years (not six or nine
weeks, not a semester) that turns to knowledge. All new, solid, real
knowledge.


These might help:
http://sandradodd.com/triviality
http://sandradodd.com/substance

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>I had thought a child doing whatever it desires is learning? What is it
about pulling in stuff that makes it the exception?<<<

I didn't think Joyce was talking about an exception to what unschooling is
by giving this example of how some (but not all) children learn, even if
it's the most obvious way that works well within the school system.

I think Joyce was just saying that the "pulling in of information" is what
schools look for yet it isn't necessarily the only nor the usual way that
most children learn.

Gardner's multiple
intelligences<http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/multiple_intelligences.htm>is
a good explanation of different learning styles (or foci).

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vidyut Kale

"I think Joyce was just saying that the "pulling in of information" is what
schools look for yet it isn't necessarily the only nor the usual way that
most children learn."

Yes. I got that. Thanks. I think I've lost touch with school and didn't get
the context. It makes sense the way you clarify it. I hadn't realized that
there was no issue if it was one of the many things a child did and all of
them were valid. It sounded like there was some problem if that happened, or
perhaps its my own 'school resistant' mind. I think I have a few hang ups
about school that make it difficult for me to relate with some contexts.

For the first time, I realize that I need to deschool as much as someone who
'bought into' the system. Going for, or going against, is still about the
same thing. I need to let go of those blind spots and resistance as well.
Your words helped me see that. Thanks.

Vidyut


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clare Kirkpatrick

"I agree, but sometimes, it also looks like quiet boredom:"

I have had a couple of times lately when I've inwardly shuddered hearing a
parent talking about their children and their activities.

1) At a study day on a Saturday, a colleague told me her children were at
home with their Dad. "They've not got any homework, this weekend! I've
told them they have to do housework. Fair enough if they have homework, I
don't mind if they don't do chores, but if there's no homework, I'm not
having them sitting around doing nothing!". I just nodded and quietly
thought to myself 'why? why, after a busy week at school, can they not just
sit around 'doing nothing' - more than likely they won't be 'doing nothing'
anyway, they'll be thinking, imagining, planning, dreaming, creating. Or
doing that most dastardly of things - playing on video games or watching tv!

2) Outside Badgers waiting for our children to come out (organised group
thing for St John Ambulance - similarish to Scouts), mother saying "He (9yo)
is difficult to motivate to come along here now, and he doesn't want to go
to scouts either. We go straight to Friday Club (?) after this, and he has
kick boxing on Wednesdays. I've told him he has to just get on and do these
groups whether he likes it or not. He has to learn commitment and I'm not
having him sitting around doing nothing after school!" Today she was
telling another mum about her daughter's two dance classes every saturday as
well as allt he other clubs during the week :-(

I just despair as to when these children ever get time just to 'be'.
They'll have more than enough time to be run ragged with all their
responsibilities as adults, but at least they'll have a choice whether or
not to take those on as adults. Now they have to spend 6 hours a day, at
least, in school - more if they go to a 'breakfast' and/or 'afterschool'
club. Then, when they're home, they have to do homework or if they don't
have homework, then housework. And then there are all the out of school
clubs they have to go to in the evenings and weekends.

I love that my children spend so much time 'doing nothing' - they're so
free! Their imaginations are rich. They are happy, inquisitive, excited,
curious, balanced.

Thank goodness I know about this way of life.

Clare

Robin Bentley

> Getting turned off of some kinds of information, feeling like you
> are too stupid to be able to get anything from a book or a
> documentary, that's more likely to be learned than innate.
>
> Schuyler
>
Maybe that should go on a list of "what unschoolers *don't* want their
kids to learn"!

Robin B.

Robin Bentley

>
> Maybe this will help: Unschooling is what parents do for their kids
> to facilitate natural learning. Kids learn, they don't unschool.
>
Joyce, this is *really* good. It makes clear that parents are
partners, not just people saying "well, have at it" as some folks new
to unschooling seem to think. Others think their kids need to change
for unschooling to work, not themselves or their ideas.

It puts the onus on the parents to do the "work" of changing *their*
attitudes about learning and making it easy for their children to do
what they do naturally.

Can I quote you? <g>

Robin B.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I had thought a child doing whatever it desires is learning? What
is it
about pulling in stuff that makes it the exception? More importantly,
what
options could be offered?-=-

Really, truly, the thing to do is to live with your child and figure
some of these things out as he's learning.

We're not talking about "exceptions."
Offer options. All kinds. Lots of them.

Learning will happen.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Su Penn

On Mar 12, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Clare Kirkpatrick wrote:

> He has to learn commitment and I'm not
> having him sitting around doing nothing after school!"

I was chatting with a neighbor about a friend's son (who is now homeschooled) who found school so draining he couldn't do extra-curriculars. He won't be able to be a bar mitzvah at 13, for instance, because he couldn't handle Hebrew school on top of his regular school day, and he's fallen too far behind. She said, "Yeah, my daughter's exactly like that. That's why we've only got her in soccer, swimming, and music classes this year." Heh.

> I love that my children spend so much time 'doing nothing' - they're so
> free! Their imaginations are rich. They are happy, inquisitive, excited,
> curious, balanced.

I find that "doing nothing" will sometimes lead to something amazing. The boys will be noodling around all day, and that noodling time will lead to some random putting this-and-that together, and suddenly they're doing collages! Or something amazing with Legos! Or making books!

As a writer, I like the concept of "maker's schedule" as described here by a programmer: http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html

It describes the need many creative people have for big chunks of time to do their work. Back when I was writing for publication, I used to feel like I needed at least a four-hour block of time to be able to count on a solid hour or two or writing. I needed that sense of expansiveness. I see that playing out in my kids' lives too, right now. Sometimes when they spend 2-3 hours on a project, or playing Legos, or playing dress-up, I find myself thinking, "If they were in school, how often would they have the time to do what they want to do until they're really done with it?"

Su, mom to Eric 8; Carl, almost 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com

Joanna

I think these responses/explanations by Joyce are some of the best stuff I've seen for taking unschooling to the next level. First, a person probably needs to get over the shock of trusting that kids can be curious, enthusiastic learners, that maybe there isn't a discrete body of information that everyone should have, that learning doesn't only happen in schools. When someone is on the road, and looking for the next step in what their role really is as an unschooling parent, this is Fantastic!

The stuff that Joyce has said so clearly in two posts or so is what you can gather in lots and lots of good conversation, over time. So well encapsulated!!

Joanna


--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
>
> > So, I thought I had a grip on what
> > fun/learning looks and feels like. Now, I can't begin to understand.
> >
>
>
> What can be confusing about understanding unschooling is that we're
> trying to help parents facilitate a mostly invisible process inside
> someone else. If a parent has an idea that learning should look a
> certain way (like pulling in factoids) and a child's learning style
> or interests are different (like video games, Barbies,
> skateboarding), the parent will assume the child isn't learning.
>
> Maybe this will help: Unschooling is what parents do for their kids
> to facilitate natural learning. Kids learn, they don't unschool.
>
> (I'm guilty of saying kids unschool. Lots of people are. It's useful
> to say kids unschool as opposed to homeschool or go to school but it
> adds a small layer of confusion as new people try to figure out
> exactly what unschooling is.)
>
>
> > If a child pulls in stuff (I didn't get what all is stuff),
>
>
> Sorry. Stuff as in factoids. Tidbits of information about the world
> that don't relate to an obvious (to others) interest.
>
>
> > because it is
> > their personality, or because they want to know, or whatever reason
> > is there
> > in that little head, why would it not be unschooling?
>
>
> Maybe if you reread my post as directed toward a parent rather than
> what a child should be doing it will be clearer.
>
> Learning can look like pulling in factoids or reading books about
> comets. Learning can look like watching TV. Learning can look like
> swimming.
>
> Maybe the most useful definition of what learning looks like is
> engagement. If a child is engaged, he's learning.
>
> But engagement isn't unschooling. Unschooling is a parent
> *facilitating* a child's engagement. Unschooling is creating the
> environment where kids can be supported in their engagement and find
> new things to engage them.
>
> We don't need to explain natural learning to kids! Kids are born with
> the ability to learn. Whatever and however they explore what
> interests them, kids are learning.
>
> If a parent is looking for feedback that the invisible process of
> learning is happening, joyful engagement is what to look for.
>
> Joyce
>

DaBreeze21

-=- Trivia.
The difference between facts and trivia is that trivia won't be on the test.
When someone isn't going to be tested anyway, then all their "trivia" stays, connects to other trivia, and over years (not six or nine weeks, not a semester) that turns to knowledge. All new, solid, real knowledge.-=-

Although I excelled in school - straight "A's", valedictorian, honor society's, scholarships, etc., I've always felt I am terrible at "Trivia". I don't do well at games like Trivial Pursuit or Jeopardy etc. I wonder if being "good at school" in the cram it in your head, spew it out, and then dump it for new information has something to do with this? (Did I "dump" EVERYTHING??) If so I definitely feel gypped! :-)I always find people that seem to know lots things about lots of different things so interesting - Like Sandra. I think that may be part of why some people think that she is better suited to unschooling than many people.

Who knows what would be in my brain right now if I hadn't gone to school?? Oh well, I'm building it up now, and of top priority is tidbits about learning, parenting, and unschooling! :-)

Susan

Jenny Cyphers

***Most of his process was invisible to us; we actually suspected for awhile that he could read better than we knew because he seemed to want that to be private--he is a very private person.***

Chamille is VERY much this way! Sometimes she surprises me with little conversations that enlighten me about how much she knows. If we never had those conversations, it would look like she wasn't learning anything. It's a very internal process for her. None of the stuff she learns, to her, seem like anything huge. It's all information that she's gathered for personal reasons or through absorption. To her, she's just being her. When she talks to me, I'll get little glimpses and to me, it's really cool and exciting information.

Margaux is loud and talks a lot. You can't help but see and know what she knows because it's a visible process. When she plays with numbers, she does it aloud, asks questions and comes up with answers. I only knew that Chamille could figure things out mathematically through little things every once in a while, like when we are at the store and comparing prices for whether or not it's cheaper to get the large container or the smaller one that's on sale. She won't say much, she'll just grab the cheaper one and let me know that it's less money for the amount. If I wasn't paying attention, I'd miss lots of her learning. I don't know her process like I do Margaux's, I never have, and I doubt I ever will. She's smart though, this much I DO know!





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Jenny Cyphers

***We don't need to explain natural learning to kids! Kids are born with
the ability to learn. Whatever and however they explore what
interests them, kids are learning.

If a parent is looking for feedback that the invisible process of
learning is happening, joyful engagement is what to look for.***

One of the worst things a parent can do to that process, is to interrupt it to insert their own agenda to learning. Margaux has been playing hangman games on paper and online. It's a great game for learning how to spell words and for sight recognition of words. I didn't get her involved in hangman games for the purpose of learning more words and how to spell them. I helped her do what she wanted to do, which was to play barbies, Nancy Drew games, and watch mystery shows on Netflix. One of the Nancy Drew games had a built in hangman game that you had to play to get something.

The first time we played that game, about 6 mos ago, she wasn't at all interested in the hangman game and I did that part for her. She wanted to play the game again because it's a fashion mystery game and she's been playing fashion games with barbies and dress up games online and adding twists of mystery here and there. This time around, she was very interested in the hangman game and played it over and over, then moved on to paper, then we found some games online which she then played for many many hours. This has lasted for more than a week now.

If I'd never fostered her love of barbies and fashion and Nancy Drew, she may never have found hangman games and played them for fun. While the games were up online, everyone that passed by got involved, including Chamille and her boyfriend and my husband. It was lighthearted and fun. If I'd started out with hangman games, I doubt very much Margaux would've jumped into it like she did. The last 2 days have been filled with Sims, she's taken a break from hangman games to do some more fashion/role playing stuff. At some point today, she'll probably get bored and we'll play tic tac toe because she got a little tic tac toe game from the dentist.





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Jenny Cyphers

***When someone isn't going to be tested anyway, then all their "trivia"
stays, connects to other trivia, and over years (not six or nine
weeks, not a semester) that turns to knowledge. All new, solid, real
knowledge.***

THIS is what I find that truly separates unschooled kids apart! Their vast knowledge about such a wide variety of things. It really expands each individual's personality in a really interesting and beautiful way.

Kids in school aren't really allowed to blossom like that and it shows. Their thoughts get stunted and their personalities start looking homogeneous. Everyone is still different, but they try very hard to look the same and be the same and at the same time ideas get categorized hierarchically so that some ideas are considered unworthy. Unschooled kids are just not like that at all!





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Ed Wendell

Or their in-depth knowledge of something singular that is not on the school list deemed worthy of knowing, that also expands the person in really interesting and beautiful ways. On the approval/disapproval list of schools is even how that knowledge is acquired. My son had vast knowledge but because he could not read nor write that knowledge he was an outcast in the system. The teachers even said he had vast knowledge - they recognized it in his conversations - BUT because it was not learned or expressed in the accepted way of reading and writing it did not count.



*** Their vast knowledge about such a wide variety of things. It really expands each individual's personality in a really interesting and beautiful way.

Kids in school aren't really allowed to blossom like that and it shows. Their thoughts get stunted and their personalities start looking homogeneous. Everyone is still different, but they try very hard to look the same and be the same and at the same time ideas get categorized hierarchically so that some ideas are considered unworthy. ***



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