Michele K

Sigh... It's happening again. I have so much trouble getting through the toilet-learning period without getting frustrated. (And by "period" I mean a very vague truly long expanse of time, like a year. I don't "train.") My girls both took until sometime after their 4th birthdays before they were consistently using the toilet, and if my son follows the stereotype "boys take longer" will he be 5? Okay, I could be fine with that if he'd keep his pants on, but he prefers nudity. And I'd be fine with that if he'd at least pee/poop in a place I can clean easily, but he prefers the carpet in a few of our out of the way rooms. And he doesn't just drop the poop on the carpet, he explores it, smashing it into the carpet and scattering it around.

I have lost track of the number of times he has done this, so even though logically I know it's temporary, it's getting hard to be patient. I'm trying to keep better eye on him so he doesn't have a chance to paint with poop, but apparently he has a knack for knowing when I'm engrossed in something else.

I briefly tried bribery a couple of weeks ago -- "These cookies are for people who use the toilet" -- but he doesn't seem to understand it. Maybe because he's used to getting whatever food he asks for. I've tried reasoning: "You are walking *past* the bathroom to poop in the front room. If you can walk that far, why can't you just go into the bathroom?" No answer. I hardly ever suggest he use toilet, but when I have, he never wants to, of course. The 3 or 4 times he has peed or pooped in the bathroom, at least on the floor, over the last year, I have cheered and his sisters cheered for him.

I intended to be so calm and patient with him, after my experience with my girls learning to use the toilet. And I was for a while, but lately I'm despairing, and too embarrassed to invite people over because I can't get the poop stains completely cleaned out of the carpet.

Please don't just remind me it's temporary and to be patient. I have no trouble with that attitude in everything else, and I even managed to have it for a long time regarding poop on the carpet because we plan to replace our flooring as soon as the diaper stage is over (Ian is our last child), but he has been doing this for many months now, and if he takes longer than his sisters....

Also, do you have advice for cleaning poop stained carpet? I've used a pet stain remover in the past that worked a little, and since I ran out of that I've been using vinegar. (I tried baking soda with the vinegar too, but that makes the carpet really stiff after it dries.) But I still have light brown stains here and there in several rooms in my house. :(

p.s. When I decided to post this message yesterday, first I searched for "poop" in the message archives. I found some very interesting reading, but only one thread was actually about dealing with kids learning to use the toilet!

Michele, mom of always unschooled Rhiannon 8, Caroline 6, and Ian 3 (last November)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

Have you tried bringing the potty into what ever room you are in?

This doesn't sound like accidents, like Jayn had a couple of times.

This sounds like he's doing this for some reason to do with keeping your
focus on him.

With what are you engrossed when it happens? That might be the clue.

I think I might be closing off some rooms in this situation. Really. If the
garage is full of electric tools and sharp knives, you don't let a toddler
go in there unattended until he can understand safety. You don't rely on
"no", you lock the door, so you don't have to be afraid. This is similar.
Don't expect words and lengthy exhortations to do anything. Lock the door,
or put up the gates.

Keep him in the same room that you are in - with the portable potty.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com



> And I'd be fine with that if he'd at least pee/poop in a place I can
> clean easily, but he prefers the carpet in a few of our out of the way
> rooms. And he doesn't just drop the poop on the carpet, he explores it,
> smashing it into the carpet and scattering it around.
>
> I have lost track of the number of times he has done this, so even though
> logically I know it's temporary, it's getting hard to be patient. I'm trying
> to keep better eye on him so he doesn't have a chance to paint with poop,
> but apparently he has a knack for knowing when I'm engrossed in something
> else.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele K

I get engrossed in reading online, doing things with his sisters, and household projects (cleaning, cooking). But yeah, most of the poops on the carpet were done while I was online or scrapbooking (which I also do on the computer). I am trying to reduce the time I spend on the computer.

He shunned the portable potty, I think because he's so big. However, yesterday I offered him an old plastic 2 cup measuring cup, holding it up for him when I saw he was about to pee on the carpet, and he peed in there, watching with great interest; then today when I thought he was just rummaging in the cabinets as he often does, he pulled out the salad spinner and started to squat over it. LOL Honestly, after all these months, I was just happy he was choosing a receptacle instead of the carpet. Maybe I will go get the potty out again; I was keeping it for using in the van.

I could lock the bedroom doors upstairs, but the front rooms downstairs have very wide doorways.

I'm surprised to get the suggestion here to keep him in one room. However, I forgot to mention in my original post another thing I've tried. For a couple of days last week I tried making sure I was always in the same room as him, following him. That was very hard! I think it makes me feel more frustrated because it's not helping him learn to use the toilet, and I start thinking, "I can't do this for months!"

Thank you for replying!

Michele, mom of Rhiannon 8, Caroline 6, and Ian 3
Learning, Laughing, Snuggling, Scrapping
My Digital Scrapbook Pages





________________________________
From: Robyn Coburn <dezignarob@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 6:47:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] poop, take 3


Have you tried bringing the potty into what ever room you are in?

This doesn't sound like accidents, like Jayn had a couple of times.

This sounds like he's doing this for some reason to do with keeping your
focus on him.

With what are you engrossed when it happens? That might be the clue.

I think I might be closing off some rooms in this situation. Really. If the
garage is full of electric tools and sharp knives, you don't let a toddler
go in there unattended until he can understand safety. You don't rely on
"no", you lock the door, so you don't have to be afraid. This is similar.
Don't expect words and lengthy exhortations to do anything. Lock the door,
or put up the gates.

Keep him in the same room that you are in - with the portable potty.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles. blogspot. com




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Sandra Dodd

-=-Please don't just remind me it's temporary and to be patient.-=-

What kinds of answers would you like then? Spank him and shame him?
Electroshock therapy?

When Kirby was little he hung around with some other kids named Kyla
and Dane. He asked me wistful one day, "Mom, why is Kyla older than
Dane?" I took a breath to answer, and he said "...and don't tell it's
because she was born first."

When people come and tell us what not to say, or tell us what kind of
answers to give them, it kind of takes the joy out of helping them.

As to how to remove poop from carpet, there are carpet cleaning sites
that would be better to consult than this list.

Sandra the listowner

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Robin Bentley

> if my son follows the stereotype "boys take longer" will he be 5?

He might be older than 5. Every child has his/her own timetable.

> Okay, I could be fine with that if he'd keep his pants on, but he
> prefers nudity.

Maybe he prefers different pants. Have you tried pull-ups, cloth
training pants, cool superhero underwear? If he really does prefer
nudity, he requires more attention on your part to watch him for signs
of needing to go.

> And I'd be fine with that if he'd at least pee/poop in a place I can
> clean easily, but he prefers the carpet in a few of our out of the
> way rooms. And he doesn't just drop the poop on the carpet, he
> explores it, smashing it into the carpet and scattering it around.

Two things here. He might be doing this to get more of your attention,
knowing you'll certainly pay attention if he smears poop. Second, he
might like the feel of squishing things. Make him some homemade
playdough or buy some. Make that cornstarch thing (can't remember the
name at the moment), give him stuff to squish.
>
> I have lost track of the number of times he has done this, so even
> though logically I know it's temporary, it's getting hard to be
> patient. I'm trying to keep better eye on him so he doesn't have a
> chance to paint with poop, but apparently he has a knack for knowing
> when I'm engrossed in something else.

Hmm. That's a key. He knows you're not paying attention. He wants you
to pay attention. Whatever else he's doing isn't getting the result he
wants. Ergo, poop-smashing on the carpet.
>
> I've tried reasoning: "You are walking *past* the bathroom to poop
> in the front room. If you can walk that far, why can't you just go
> into the bathroom?"

Are you expecting him to go to the bathroom on his own, by himself?
Maybe he needs your help. My daughter (almost 15) needed help
toileting for years past 5. It was just part of who she was, not to
mention she felt loved when I helped her.


> No answer. I hardly ever suggest he use toilet, but when I have,
> he never wants to, of course. The 3 or 4 times he has peed or
> pooped in the bathroom, at least on the floor, over the last year, I
> have cheered and his sisters cheered for him.

I think it would be better to be there for him beforehand, not after.
He doesn't need external motivation more than he needs your assistance.

Robin B.

Glenda

---But yeah, most of the poops on the carpet were done while I was online or scrapbooking (which I also do on the computer). I am trying to reduce the time I spend on the computer.---
 
Put the computer and scrapbooking stuff aside til he's asleep. Perhaps not a suggestion you're wanting to hear, but he needs your attention more when he's awake.
 
My son was 8-ish before I truly began to have decent-sized chunks of time to computer / craft / etc. while he was awake. Now he's 11-1/2 and I get huge chunks of time while he's gaming online with his friends.
 
Glenda




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Sandra Dodd

-=-. But yeah, most of the poops on the carpet were done while I was
online or scrapbooking (which I also do on the computer). I am trying
to reduce the time I spend on the computer. -=-

There's a message from Yoda for you here:

http://sandradodd.com/doit

-=-I'm surprised to get the suggestion here to keep him in one room. -=-

The suggestion was for him to be in the room you're in.

-=- I start thinking, "I can't do this for months!"-=-

Some parents have to wipe their kids' asses for years. Some moms WISH
their kid could rummage through the cabinet and crap in a bowl instead
of being confined to a bed or a wheelchair.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

He might be a very tactile learner and love experimenting with textures. No
kidding. Consider taking a closer look at Robin's idea about that.

Oh wait a minute.. he's 3? I thought he might be close to 5 from a couple of
comments I read in your post. I realize that 3 is time for pottying and
getting the kid out of diapers, conventionally speaking. And it's amazing
how attached mommas can get to ideals that might ill-fit a child. Children
are not ideals and they don't know about nor can they conform easily to an
ideal that isn't their own.

Thinking about it another way, isn't it a good thing for children to be
cared for in their most intimate private parts of life. Not to is to reject
these parts of them. Some people have a lot of residual "ick" especially
about poop. But it does wash off and you could avoid transferring a lot of
body disgust by treating this time with lots more gentleness. Avoid
comparing him to his siblings for one. Every child is a little different and
some are a lot different. So yes, it could be a while, and it's part of who
a child is.

One last thought: if you were to relieve yourself and then all of a sudden
look up to see your siblings gathered around you clapping and praising you
for it .... that wouldn't be odd??

~Katherine


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Jenny Cyphers

***I could lock the bedroom doors upstairs, but the front rooms downstairs have very wide doorways.

I'm surprised to get the suggestion here to keep him in one room. ***

I don't understand why you'd think it a bad suggestion.  When someone gets a puppy that hasn't learned to go outside to toilet, they lay down newspaper and put up gates.  How is that hugely different?  If you lived in a house with cement floors or cow dung floors, poop and pee of a little kid wouldn't be so hard, but you have carpets.  If you don't like the idea of cleaning carpets or keeping your kid in areas that are supervised, AND you are planning on taking the carpets out anyway, why not just take them out now and have sub floor, maybe paint over it for a smooth surface.  You'll be one step closer to new flooring and you'll have an easier time cleaning up for the next couple of years.

Me, personally, I wouldn't be ok with a child pooing or peeing in kitchen ware, but perhaps some old ceramic bowls would work nicely for piss pots, like old time days of outhouses.  I can't remember what those are called....




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Michele K

We have cloth diapers, cloth training pants, cool superhero underwear, paper Pull-Ups. Sometimes I've wondered if too many choices and inconsistency could be a problem. What do you think?

I'm not expecting him to go to the bathroom by himself. But I don't even have a chance to help him. If I suggest he might need to go (like when I see him standing quietly, crossing his legs, looking down) he says no. He has never come to me before peeing or pooping, only sometimes afterward if he had clothes on and wants to be changed.

Thanks everyone for the input. I will strive to be more attentive. Already in recent weeks I've been not even opening up my computer for long periods of time because even if I think I'm just going to check something quick, it ends up being much longer!

I will check this thread more though, so don't stop the replies if you have more ideas or advice for me. Thanks!

Michele, mom of Rhiannon 8, Caroline 6, and Ian 3
Learning, Laughing, Snuggling, Scrapping
My Digital Scrapbook Pages
p.s. Why are links stripped from signatures? Here's my blog link (Learning, Laughing, Snuggling, Scrapping)
http://rhicarian.wordpress.com/

I know I haven't written on this group very often and you don't know me as well as I know some of you who post regularly, so there's my blog if you'd like to get to know me.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

"The level of cooperation parents get from their kids is usually equal to
the level of connection children feel with their parents." ~~Pam Leo
That's a quote I thought would be inspiring. Connection takes time and
attention and the development of an interest in something or someone. And
it's right there, at the heart of unschooling.

~Katherine





On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:36 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:

> He might be a very tactile learner and love experimenting with textures. No
> kidding. Consider taking a closer look at Robin's idea about that.
>
> Oh wait a minute.. he's 3? I thought he might be close to 5 from a couple
> of comments I read in your post. I realize that 3 is time for pottying and
> getting the kid out of diapers, conventionally speaking. And it's amazing
> how attached mommas can get to ideals that might ill-fit a child. Children
> are not ideals and they don't know about nor can they conform easily to an
> ideal that isn't their own.
>
> Thinking about it another way, isn't it a good thing for children to be
> cared for in their most intimate private parts of life. Not to is to reject
> these parts of them. Some people have a lot of residual "ick" especially
> about poop. But it does wash off and you could avoid transferring a lot of
> body disgust by treating this time with lots more gentleness. Avoid
> comparing him to his siblings for one. Every child is a little different and
> some are a lot different. So yes, it could be a while, and it's part of who
> a child is.
>
> One last thought: if you were to relieve yourself and then all of a sudden
> look up to see your siblings gathered around you clapping and praising you
> for it .... that wouldn't be odd??
>
> ~Katherine
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele K

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply bad. I said I was surprised because this group is all about not putting limits on our kids.

I didn't even know you could take out the carpets and use "sub floor"! I will be talking to my husband about that!

Michele, mom of Rhiannon 8, Caroline 6, and Ian 3




I don't understand why you'd think it a bad suggestion. When someone gets a puppy that hasn't learned to go outside to toilet, they lay down newspaper and put up gates. How is that hugely different? If you lived in a house with cement floors or cow dung floors, poop and pee of a little kid wouldn't be so hard, but you have carpets. If you don't like the idea of cleaning carpets or keeping your kid in areas that are supervised, AND you are planning on taking the carpets out anyway, why not just take them out now and have sub floor, maybe paint over it for a smooth surface. You'll be one step closer to new flooring and you'll have an easier time cleaning up for the next couple of years.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

casouthworth

>>>I've tried reasoning: "You are walking *past* the bathroom to poop in the front room. If you can walk that far, why can't you just go into the bathroom?"<<<

How is your bathroom set up? Does your son have to turn the light on? Is it easy for him to sit on the big potty? Does he need a step stool or one of those kid seats? Is there more privacy in the front room?

When my oldest was figuring out the potty, she wouldn't use the bathroom unless the door was left wide open and the light was left on. If the light was off in the bathroom or in the hallway leading to the bathroom, she would go behind the curtain and paint the window and carpet with her poo. She couldn't verbalize that the problem was the fact that the light was off. She could turn the light on by herself in other situations but she couldn't do it when it came to pottying. When we started leaving the light on 24/7, she started going consistently.

With my second daughter, she wouldn't even try to go in the potty until she was tall enough to use the big toilet by herself. She refused to use the small potties because they were for babies. She preferred to go in her pull up because she could do it without anybody knowing when she did it. We have discussed potty stuff and she is horrified by the thought of somebody knowing when she goes to the bathroom. Pottying is something that is very private and very personal to her. She asked me when kids in public school go to the bathroom. I told her that kids in school go as a class or they have to ask for permission. She was horrified by it. She is almost 6 now but that tidbit of information has helped me to understand why it took her so long to use the potty. She needed to do it by herself on her terms without help or interference. She poops in her pull up at night because she hates asking for help while she is in the bathroom. She would much rather poop in her night time pull up and ask me to change her after the fact.

My almost 3 year old has figured out the potty. She went through the painting with poo period. My husband and I didn't say anything to her about the poo painting. I bought a steam cleaner and began cleaning it up whenever she did it. I didn't try to reason with her or anything else. When she was big enough to open the bathroom door and do it all herself, she started doing it herself. I assumed that the reason my daughter was pooing and painting was because there was something hindering her ability to go to the bathroom. I wasn't sure what it was so I tried to pay attention to what was going on in the environment so that I could remove any barriers that might exist. After that, I let her do her thing and would clean up when necessary.

Connie

Vidyut Kale

Shot in the dark. Encourage him to poop everywhere except the bathroom :D

Shove a newspaper under his bottom, cheer him on, clean with joy if the
newspaper fails to happen. Be utterly delighted "wow! what a fantastic poop
on the dining table! I miss when your sisters could do this. They hide
theirs now :D" Situation changes. No stress. More freedom, power. More
awareness of own actions, because his auto-pilot hasn't got a program for
this situation. He'll do something different too - for sure - he can't help
it - his 'scope' has changed. Its a law of behaviour. Can't promise it will
be the bathroom, though.

But you could probably keep changing your style of response to keep him
aware, till he finally 'gets it'


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bernadette Lynn

On 23 February 2010 22:11, Michele K <mom2rci@...> wrote:

> I hardly ever suggest he use toilet, but when I have, he never wants to, of
> course. The 3 or 4 times he has peed or pooped in the bathroom, at least on
> the floor, over the last year, I have cheered and his sisters cheered for
> him.
>


When you suggest he goes to the toilet do you suggest he uses it, or ask if
he wants you to take him?

I remember at three or four I was terrified of falling in the toilet and
getting flushed away. I have great sympathy for small children who don't
want to go on their own to the toilet.


Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Me, personally, I wouldn't be ok with a child pooing or peeing in
kitchen ware, but perhaps some old ceramic bowls would work nicely for
piss pots, like old time days of outhouses. I can't remember what
those are called....-=-

Chamber pots?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele K

Pam Leo's book Connection Parenting is my favorite parenting book . That was inspiring, thanks Katherine.

Michele, mom of Rhiannon 8, Caroline 6, and Ian 3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply bad. I said I was surprised
because this group is all about not putting limits on our kids.-=-

This group is all about helping children learn naturally.

When we talk about limits it's about not imposing arbitrary limits.
Limits for good reasons aren't arbitrary.

If he's not using the toilet, why not just use diapers and not mess
with ANY other stuff? Seems perhaps he's being rushed or pressured.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele K

Sandra,
As I said, he won't keep his pants on (including diapers/underpants). He'll kick and fight if I insist he put them on when he doesn't want them. Some of us in this family don't like clothing (his oldest sister and I agree with him). Several of the poop painting episodes happened when he had been in a diaper.

I've just spent a long time reading the pages linked from the Do It page. Just finished the Getting It page. I've got to get to sleep -- early morning plans -- and my laptop battery is about to die too. Just want to say I am getting something

* * * * *

I wrote the above last night and my battery died right in the middle of the word "something"!

Connie, I just started to think about how the bathroom looks last night. He has no problem climbing onto the toilet the few occasions he has chosen too, using a step stool. But I have been the one to push the step stool there; not sure if that has been a complicating factor. But our main floor bathroom is very plain. I was thinking maybe I could make it more interesting to him with his Spiderman books, some toys. And you may have hit on something with the privacy. When all of my kids like to run around the house nude, it didn't occur to me they might seek out privacy for toileting. And the downstairs bathroom door is often closed because it's right there off the family room. I will start making a point of keeping it open. And light on if it's dark.

Vidyut, I'm smiling and thinking about that idea.

Can I get some input on my wondering if my inconsistency regarding the use of cloth diapers, paper diapers, cotton training underpants, and regular underwear could be a problem? I thought choices are good, but he's not interested in making this choice so I'm making it for him, depending on whether I'm thinking I can handle a mess or not. So maybe he's confused; sometimes it's okay to use his pants for pee/poo and sometimes it's not. And then there are the daily naked times to factor into this as well. Those are almost always initiated by my son himself, either by kicking when I try to dress him or removing the clothes at some point. Maybe he (and my oldest when she was in the same age and situation) sometimes reject all bottom coverings because of the inconsistency!

Have a good day everyone. See you tonight. We'll be out most of the day with friends.

Michele, mom of Rhiannon 8, Caroline 6, and Ian 3
Learning, Laughing, Snuggling, Scrapping
My Digital Scrapbook Pages




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-As I said, he won't keep his pants on (including diapers/
underpants). He'll kick and fight if I insist he put them on when he
doesn't want them. Some of us in this family don't like clothing (his
oldest sister and I agree with him). Several of the poop painting
episodes happened when he had been in a diaper.-=-

Sorry; you're right.

Then I'm back to "stay near him." If he's pooped and you don't know
until you find the cave paintings, that's part of the problem.

Being three never lasts more than a year.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

casouthworth

>>>And you may have hit on something with the privacy. When all of my kids like to run around the house nude, it didn't occur to me they might seek out privacy for toileting.<<<

My girls have always valued privacy. Even if they run around the house naked, they need the space to potty in private. If they ask me for help, the like for me to be pretty matter of fact about it. They don't like being praised for going to the potty and they don't like it when people (dad/grandma/etc.) try to get silly or make a big deal out of things. When my kids are potty learning, I let them know that I am going and I offer to help them if they want/need to go too. If not, no big deal. My almost 3 year old only asks for help in the morning and sometimes at night.


>>>Can I get some input on my wondering if my inconsistency regarding the use of cloth diapers, paper diapers, cotton training underpants, and regular underwear could be a problem?.....Maybe he (and my oldest when she was in the same age and situation) sometimes reject all bottom coverings because of the inconsistency!<<<

It sounds like his choice is to be naked. The rejection of bottom coverings may not have anything to do with being consistent. It may be that being naked is what he prefers. I have found that each of my girls had a pretty clear preference. Once they figured out their individual preference, I quit offering other choices unless they expressed dissatisfaction with their current choice at some point.

My oldest two girls preffered disposable pull ups so they could change the wet ones by themselves. My 3rd daughter preferred to be naked until she figured things out by herself. She hates getting her panties dirty and she hates the feel of pull ups. I got her some cloth diapers and some training panties but she hated those too. Her preference was to be naked. She rejected any and all bottom coverings because she wanted to be naked. She went through a period where she even slept naked. The only time she would get dressed is when we left the house. We tried to minimize those times because of her clear dislike for getting dressed/wearing bottoms. I think her preference for being naked came from the fact that the material rubbing against her skin confused her and made it difficult for her to tell when she had to potty. She had to sort out all of those sensations and the bottoms were getting in her way. Now that she has figured out the potty, she chooses to wear underwear.

Connie

k

I'm just reposting this below by Vidyut in the pottying thread:

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:

> I don't remember my own potty training, but I had two cousins three and six
> years younger growing up with my grandmom, like me. I remember what aaji
> (grandmom) used to do. I assume I underwent the same stuff. I don't
> remember
> any issues with both of them.
>
> She basically used to put a newspaper on the floor and let them squat on it
> and keep them entertained till 'it happened'. Often just outside the toilet
> door, in the passage. As they grew older, she used to take me away (I used
> to tease them and that distracted them, or they didn't like - I don't
> remember) and we both used to spend time elsewhere till they announced
> 'done'. Eventually they graduated to sitting on a paper in the loo and
> finally squatting directly on the pot holding on to her. I remember my
> early
> graduation to toilets as desperate attempts to hold it and refusing to go
> on
> paper like a kid when the loo was busy (grandpa used to take ages in
> there).
> I remember the same happening with the other two. None of us ever had the
> sitting type potties. I got one for Nisarga, but he is too young for it.
> the
> elder cousin got one for her son which he uses as a chair, but goes on a
> newspaper when he has to poop.
>
> Of course it helped that Indian toilets are the squatting type, so
> progressing to a 'real' toilet was simply squatting in another place and no
> huge learning curve.
>
> But I don't think you have that kind of a toilet, so I don't know how this
> could be adapted. I'll ask my aunt. These older Indian women are amazing
> with toilet training. Very few from my generation had any toilet training
> problems.
>
> I'll ask around for the women with the sitting type toilets and what they
> did for toilet training and share if I find out anything useful other than
> this.
>
> Vidyut
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > -=-that element of choosing to honor the promise makes our marriage
> > strong, it makes our interactions necessarily thoughtful and
> > respectful most all the time, and it helps our kids -- his, who've
> > already been through the devastation of losing their parents'
> > marriage, and ours, who will never, ever experience their parents
> > splitting up.-=-
> >
> > Deb,
> >
> > As I read your post I thought I was reading something to the
> > PeacefulPartners list and was really glad something so good and
> > different had been posted. Then I saw that AlwaysLearning was your
> > target audience.
> >
> > Although I don't mind this list having better discussions about
> > marriages than the list about unschooling families' marriages...
> > would it be okay with you if I (or Schuyler) quote your post on that
> > other list? It's here:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/
> >
> > What you wrote was really inspiring.
> >
> > I wrote our marriage ceremony when Keith and I got married. There was
> > a part about the community supporting the marriage, and that the
> > people who attended were our community. I'm about to leave for
> > Colorado so can't look for it today, but I hope I'll remember to find
> > that and quote it. I take that seriously. We're answerable to each
> > other and also everybody who took the time and trouble to come to our
> > wedding and bring us gifts.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


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Su Penn

On Feb 24, 2010, at 7:59 AM, Michele K wrote:

> Can I get some input on my wondering if my inconsistency regarding the use of cloth diapers, paper diapers, cotton training underpants, and regular underwear could be a problem?

I used to worry about inconsistency in toilet learning; I had this whole theory about how a kid should either be IN diapers or NOT in diapers, no diapers part-time, pull-ups part time, or any of that, because a kid would be confused otherwise. This theory got support from my first child, who asked to learn to pee in the potty at 26 months and never went back to daytime diapers.

Of course, one's second or third child often blows up the best-formed theories! Carl asked to try the potty before he was two; then decided to go back into diapers; then asked to go without; then went back into them. Then he wanted diapers sometimes, like if we were going out, because he didn't want to have to worry about accidents, but wanted to be out of diapers at home. Then he went through a LONG period where he was fully in control but wanted me to put a diaper on him when he needed to poop so he could go to a private place. And then eventually (I don't quite remember when or how), he starting pooping in the potty, too. I'm going to say he was certainly close to 4, at least, by the time this happened.

And that seemed fine, too. He never seemed confused--he always seemed to know exactly what he wanted to do!

> I thought choices are good, but he's not interested in making this choice so I'm making it for him, depending on whether I'm thinking I can handle a mess or not.

I don't know whether all the choices are confusing your son; you know him best. I can imagine that might happen for some kids and not for others. But for right now, it seems like it might be useful to think about what choice is going to remove the most conflict from the situation. If that's going back into diapers full-time (if he'll consent to that), that could be a good choice. Sometimes asking myself, "How can I simplify this situation? What factors can I remove?" is helpful. I'll try to think about all the pieces that are contributing, and which ones are easiest to take out, or would have the most effect, or be least disrupting to the kids. Maybe that's going back to diapers; maybe it's removing carpet; maybe it's limiting his access to some rooms; maybe it's taking the computer out of the equation for now.

Su

mom of Eric, 8; Carl, almost 6; Yehva, 2.5

alexandriapalonia

I wonder how much geography plays into this?

I grew up in cultures that are more northern (above the 50th) than the continental US, that keep their houses much colder than most US homes (around 55F), as did my husband, so our home has been very much the same. I was thinking about how none of my (8) kids did any of the naked-toddler things that so many folks have described here, and then it dawned on me, "Duh! Those are probably naked babies in warm climes and typically-warmed American houses."

Andrea

> My oldest two girls preffered disposable pull ups so they could change the wet ones by themselves. My 3rd daughter preferred to be naked until she figured things out by herself. She hates getting her panties dirty and she hates the feel of pull ups. I got her some cloth diapers and some training panties but she hated those too. Her preference was to be naked. She rejected any and all bottom coverings because she wanted to be naked. She went through a period where she even slept naked. The only time she would get dressed is when we left the house. We tried to minimize those times because of her clear dislike for getting dressed/wearing bottoms. I think her preference for being naked came from the fact that the material rubbing against her skin confused her and made it difficult for her to tell when she had to potty. She had to sort out all of those sensations and the bottoms were getting in her way. Now that she has figured out the potty, she chooses to wear underwear.
>
> Connie
>

lalow66

--- In [email protected], "alexandriapalonia" <alexandriapalonia@...> wrote:
>
> I wonder how much geography plays into this?
>
> I grew up in cultures that are more northern (above the 50th) than the continental US, that keep their houses much colder than most US homes (around 55F), as did my husband, so our home has been very much the same. I was thinking about how none of my (8) kids did any of the naked-toddler things that so many folks have described here, and then it dawned on me, "Duh! Those are probably naked babies in warm climes and typically-warmed American houses."
>
I dont know... we keep our house at about 60 in the winter, and colder at night and my kids run around at various degrees of undress. My 8 year old spends half his days in boxers.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

"I grew up in cultures that are more northern (above the 50th) than the
continental US, that keep their houses much colder than most US homes
(around 55F), as did my husband, so our home has been very much the
same. I was thinking about how none of my (8) kids did any of the
naked-toddler things that so many folks have described here, and then
it dawned on me, "Duh! Those are probably naked babies in warm climes
and typically-warmed American houses."

I live in cold Minnesota and my son used to be naked a lot , not his sister is the nakes one.
We keep the house at 58F degrees .It does not seem to bother her.
Both my kids were using the toilet very early at around 2.
The only thing I did was to be aware and help them out.
I had little potties in the play room where we hang out and small toilet seat in the bathroom.
We talked about the poopoo and peepee going to the poopoo/peepee house ( we have a septic)
but that was just cause it was fun and not to make them do anything.
They were never shamed for getting things dirty.
Gigi and I still wave bye bye to her poopoos when we flush them.



Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/





________________________________
F


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Vidyut Kale

Okay, I asked my aunt about how they potty trained my eldest cousin's son
(he is a year and half now). They have western type toilets since grandpa
finds it difficult to squat these days (he's almost 90 and had broken his
hip joint some fifteen years ago).

She says they did the same stuff with the newspaper, and when he reached a
place of confidently announcing 'done', they started perching him in a squat
on the toilet. Sometimes he wants down, but mostly he will either go like
that, or increasingly just avoids resting his legs on the rim and sits on
the toilet.

He's still pretty tiny to sit on the toilet on his own and he doesn't like
to go in his nice potty and spoil it (I suspect his grandmothers have no
comfort with the unfamiliar method either), so they have to really support
him when he is sitting there, but he seems happy with it unless he's sleepy.
She says that he signals he wants to go by squatting in front of the toilet
door, and calling out. If they can help his shorts off in time, and shove a
newspaper under his bottom, life rocks. They have to be alert or he'll just
go in his clothes right there in the 'correct' place and position unless the
shorts are very easy to take off.

Vidyut


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-She says they did the same stuff with the newspaper, and when he
reached a
place of confidently announcing 'done', they started perching him in a
squat
on the toilet.-=-

In college I had a boyfriend from India. He used to squat up on the
toilet seat instead of sitting on it. He said many of the medical
problems of the western world have to do with trying to poop while
sitting on a char, instead of squatting.

He's probably right. And we didn't get married (a big regret in my
life, and it was my fault). And he became a doctor.

Unschooling wouldn't have happened if I'd been married into that
family, though. His dad is a big bully with a PhD and my ex-boyfriend
is the failure of the family, being a family-practitioner and later a
psychiatrist, instead of a heart or cancer specialist. But I bet he's
right about that toilet thing. <g>

Sandra

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k

He is right about that toilet thing as far as I'm concerned. I never had any
problem until I got pregnant and someone suggested I squat or put my feet on
a stool to approximate a squat. No problem after that.

~Katherine




On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-She says they did the same stuff with the newspaper, and when he
> reached a
> place of confidently announcing 'done', they started perching him in a
> squat
> on the toilet.-=-
>
> In college I had a boyfriend from India. He used to squat up on the
> toilet seat instead of sitting on it. He said many of the medical
> problems of the western world have to do with trying to poop while
> sitting on a char, instead of squatting.
>
> He's probably right. And we didn't get married (a big regret in my
> life, and it was my fault). And he became a doctor.
>
> Unschooling wouldn't have happened if I'd been married into that
> family, though. His dad is a big bully with a PhD and my ex-boyfriend
> is the failure of the family, being a family-practitioner and later a
> psychiatrist, instead of a heart or cancer specialist. But I bet he's
> right about that toilet thing. <g>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vidyut Kale

" I never had any
problem until I got pregnant and someone suggested I squat or put my feet on
a stool to approximate a squat. No problem after that."

I can so relate to that, being fresh in my mind and all that.

For some reason, others were more worried than me about sitting on the
floor, squatting in the loo, etc. I guess the actions just looked improbably
given my shape.

My husband got me a chair contraption which could be placed over the regular
toilet to make it 'more comfortable', which MIL uses to date (she has a knee
problem). I hated it. I hadn't asked for it in the first place, since it was
getting increasingly difficult to 'do it' in western toilets outside home. I
tried the thing once, and found it too uncomfortable. Pooping just came
better in a squat, particularly with the dragon of constipation to conquer.

If the same is true for kids, perhaps they are able to get it done with
faster in a squat (or squatting with their clothes on :D ). I notice N
really pulls up his legs to poop even though he is on his back.

Vidyut


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