Sandra Dodd

I thought I should share this while it's happening. What's happening
at the moment is nothing, and I thought sharing it with people whose
kids are still younger could be useful.

Holly didn't come home last night. There isn't an e-mail and there
isn't a tweet. No text message. She has one of our cars. I know
where she probably is, at her friend Caiti's. And it's possible that
Caiti doesn't have e-mail. And it's possible that her phone is
needing a charge.

She's smart, she's 18. If there was something wrong, we would have
heard. This is a classic "no news is good news" situation. I had
left a sticky note on her closed laptop that says "I love you. Hope
you had fun!" It's still there.

I'm worried at an intellectual level, a little. Not "worried"
physically. Not afraid. A little apprehensive, but really only a
little. 5%.

Before Kirby could drive but he had older friends who did, he would
end up being out all night sometimes because he stayed at a gaming
party after his ride left, but he would always leave an e-mail for me
to find when I woke up, or he would've left a message with Marty or
Holly. The first time he wasn't here and there wasn't an e-mail
either, I think he was fifteen. It was before he had a phone of his
own. I called the place that would most likely know, my friend Jon's
house, and he was there, and their internet was down. That's all I
needed to know; he was fine. My first guess had been right.

Marty's also out, but has been gone since Wednesday morning. He's
camping in Arizona, and there are many hundreds of people there who
know me and Keith and so if Marty was not safe and healthy, we'd know
it in no time.

If it turns out later that Holly was not in a good situation, will I
feel bad about not having freaked out and started making phone calls
and waking people up? I hope not. Odds are she's fine.

When I had been away at college for a semester, I went to a New
Year's Eve party at the home of a whole family of friends--the
parents and all six kids were there. Lots of other people I knew,
and some other parents I knew, too. The party went nearly all night.
Some of the kids were smoking a little marijuana, but the bulk of the
party was alcohol consumption by the adults. I was driven home
(carefully) by one of the moms at about 5:30 in the morning, I think.
My dad was awake, and really worried, and so angry with me.

I had NOT expected my dad to be awake. My dad had never ever once
stayed up because I was out. My mom was the one who did that, if
anyone did. But my mom had left a few months before.

I had been off at college, living in a dorm, staying out whenever I
wanted to, going where I wanted to. I wasn't a partying kid at all.
I went to class. I wasn't wild. So I did feel bad for having
worried my dad, but it seemed to be unfair that he was angry. We just
hadn't stated our expectations for the new situation at the house.

I feel that the expectation here that someone should leave a message
hasn't been ignored by Holly, but that she'll have a good explanation.

I'll let you know.

Sandra

(Keith's still in the back and doesn't know she's still out. I don't
know if he'll be more worried than I am and want me to call her.)

Sandra Dodd

Holly called on the house phone. Keith picked it up in the back, and
me in the kitchen. She said she wanted to let us know she was at
Sita's house (the other girl she and Caiti went to the concert
with). She sounded really sleepy. I asked if she was going to come
home or sleep, and she said she wasn't sure yet. Do you have the car
there? Yes. (I thought maybe she was out because she had left the
car at Caiti's and gotten a different ride away from the concert.)

Sandra

Julie van der Wekken

Thanks for sharing this Sandra.

The first time my older sister stayed out all night (can't remember how old she was, probably 17), my parents called the cops. When I started staying out all night I was 19, and I distinctly remember my mother being pissed when I came home the next morning. In our family there wasn't much communication, so I never felt the need to call and say I wasn't coming home (it was usually not planned in advance). I was also in an angry "I'm an adult now, they can't tell me what to do anymore" stage as well. When I came home the next morning my mom never said a word, she would just give me dirty looks and the "cold shoulder" for the rest of the day:(

The relationships between me & my husband and our two sons is different, and will be different. I'm ensuring that right now while we strive to be the best we can be as a radical unschooling family:)

Julie van der Wekken
http://lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I thought I should share this while it's happening. What's happening
> at the moment is nothing, and I thought sharing it with people whose
> kids are still younger could be useful.
>
> Holly didn't come home last night. There isn't an e-mail and there
> isn't a tweet. No text message. She has one of our cars. I know
> where she probably is, at her friend Caiti's. And it's possible that
> Caiti doesn't have e-mail. And it's possible that her phone is
> needing a charge.
>
> She's smart, she's 18. If there was something wrong, we would have
> heard. This is a classic "no news is good news" situation. I had
> left a sticky note on her closed laptop that says "I love you. Hope
> you had fun!" It's still there.
>
> I'm worried at an intellectual level, a little. Not "worried"
> physically. Not afraid. A little apprehensive, but really only a
> little. 5%.
>
> Before Kirby could drive but he had older friends who did, he would
> end up being out all night sometimes because he stayed at a gaming
> party after his ride left, but he would always leave an e-mail for me
> to find when I woke up, or he would've left a message with Marty or
> Holly. The first time he wasn't here and there wasn't an e-mail
> either, I think he was fifteen. It was before he had a phone of his
> own. I called the place that would most likely know, my friend Jon's
> house, and he was there, and their internet was down. That's all I
> needed to know; he was fine. My first guess had been right.
>
> Marty's also out, but has been gone since Wednesday morning. He's
> camping in Arizona, and there are many hundreds of people there who
> know me and Keith and so if Marty was not safe and healthy, we'd know
> it in no time.
>
> If it turns out later that Holly was not in a good situation, will I
> feel bad about not having freaked out and started making phone calls
> and waking people up? I hope not. Odds are she's fine.
>
> When I had been away at college for a semester, I went to a New
> Year's Eve party at the home of a whole family of friends--the
> parents and all six kids were there. Lots of other people I knew,
> and some other parents I knew, too. The party went nearly all night.
> Some of the kids were smoking a little marijuana, but the bulk of the
> party was alcohol consumption by the adults. I was driven home
> (carefully) by one of the moms at about 5:30 in the morning, I think.
> My dad was awake, and really worried, and so angry with me.
>
> I had NOT expected my dad to be awake. My dad had never ever once
> stayed up because I was out. My mom was the one who did that, if
> anyone did. But my mom had left a few months before.
>
> I had been off at college, living in a dorm, staying out whenever I
> wanted to, going where I wanted to. I wasn't a partying kid at all.
> I went to class. I wasn't wild. So I did feel bad for having
> worried my dad, but it seemed to be unfair that he was angry. We just
> hadn't stated our expectations for the new situation at the house.
>
> I feel that the expectation here that someone should leave a message
> hasn't been ignored by Holly, but that she'll have a good explanation.
>
> I'll let you know.
>
> Sandra
>
> (Keith's still in the back and doesn't know she's still out. I don't
> know if he'll be more worried than I am and want me to call her.)
>

Jude

Thanks for sharing this, Sandra. It's good to see how differently the possible risks look when you trust your children to make good choices. They are still there but you can reason them out realistically.

I guess it's useful to think about this while our kids are a bit younger so that habits don't have a chance to set in.

My closest schoolfriend and I both had very protective parents who'd wait up for us, all night if necessary. We'd go to our respective homes, not to yelling and arguments, but to hurt looks of the "How could you do this to us?" variety. So we worked out a system. My mate's parents trusted me and my parents thought my mate was the most sensible girl on the planet. So we figured that if I phoned her folks to stay she was staying with me and vice versa, then we could party all night. It worked consistently, and probably put us in far more dangerous situations because we were already breaking rules, so why not go as far as possible? So a habit of watchfulness led to a habit of deception. I hope that as a family our relationship will be trustful enough that schemes like that will be redundant.

Jude x


--- In [email protected], "Julie van der Wekken" <thewekkenfam@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing this Sandra.
>
> The first time my older sister stayed out all night (can't remember how old she was, probably 17), my parents called the cops. When I started staying out all night I was 19, and I distinctly remember my mother being pissed when I came home the next morning. In our family there wasn't much communication, so I never felt the need to call and say I wasn't coming home (it was usually not planned in advance). I was also in an angry "I'm an adult now, they can't tell me what to do anymore" stage as well. When I came home the next morning my mom never said a word, she would just give me dirty looks and the "cold shoulder" for the rest of the day:(
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@> wrote:
> >
> > I thought I should share this while it's happening. What's happening
> > at the moment is nothing, and I thought sharing it with people whose
> > kids are still younger could be useful.
> >
> > Holly didn't come home last night. There isn't an e-mail and there
> > isn't a tweet. No text message. She has one of our cars. I know
> > where she probably is, at her friend Caiti's. And it's possible that
> > Caiti doesn't have e-mail. And it's possible that her phone is
> > needing a charge.
> >
> > She's smart, she's 18. If there was something wrong, we would have
> > heard. This is a classic "no news is good news" situation.
> >
> > I'm worried at an intellectual level, a little. Not "worried"
> > physically. Not afraid. A little apprehensive, but really only a
> > little. 5%.
> >

k

>>>My closest schoolfriend and I both had very protective parents who'd wait up for us, all night if necessary.<<<

This caught my eye: "all night if necessary."

Worrying, right? That's a huge burden on a relationship. Even if it's
warranted, what does worry usually do? Totally worth thinking about.
Jude's explanation of cooking up a plan between friends to phone
saying that each of them are staying at the other's house is a real
life example of what worrying *actually* does. It creates the dynamics
for parents be uninformed and, as Jude mentioned, for kids (whether
younger or older) to be in dangerous situations. I have sure been
there many times. Well past teen years (yes, my parents were that
protective), my parents continued admonishing for as long as I
continued informing them of my whereabouts. I finally quit telling
them anything at all about my life, including when I was on my last
dime with no food and in need. I made it through but it was
unnecessarily hard.

Worrying all night is soooo seldom necessary unless you have that kind
of relationship, when it's *always* necessary.

Really, this thing of worrying is something I want to think on more
deeply on for myself in relation to Karl. I know I could use some
prevention pointers again even though I've heard some pointers. I
guess I'll go look see if Sandra or Joyce have "worry" pages on their
website. I *know* I'm better at dealing with worry than my folks and
their parents were. For sure!

Any further thoughts? I'm clearest on realizing that it's closely
related to basic instinct, feelings which are there naturally for good
(and bad) reasons, and that the feelings themselves are not the things
to work on. I also know that I do in fact worry sometimes. And that
confidence comes partly (or perhaps wholly ) from trust.

~Katherine




On 2/14/10, Jude <JudithAnneMurphy@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing this, Sandra. It's good to see how differently the
> possible risks look when you trust your children to make good choices. They
> are still there but you can reason them out realistically.
>
> I guess it's useful to think about this while our kids are a bit younger so
> that habits don't have a chance to set in.
>
> My closest schoolfriend and I both had very protective parents who'd wait up
> for us, all night if necessary. We'd go to our respective homes, not to
> yelling and arguments, but to hurt looks of the "How could you do this to
> us?" variety. So we worked out a system. My mate's parents trusted me and
> my parents thought my mate was the most sensible girl on the planet. So we
> figured that if I phoned her folks to stay she was staying with me and vice
> versa, then we could party all night. It worked consistently, and probably
> put us in far more dangerous situations because we were already breaking
> rules, so why not go as far as possible? So a habit of watchfulness led to
> a habit of deception. I hope that as a family our relationship will be
> trustful enough that schemes like that will be redundant.
>
> Jude x

Pam Sorooshian

<<<Any further thoughts? I'm clearest on realizing that it's closely
related to basic instinct, feelings which are there naturally for good
(and bad) reasons, and that the feelings themselves are not the things
to work on. I also know that I do in fact worry sometimes. And that
confidence comes partly (or perhaps wholly ) from trust.>>>



I've worried. But I tried to hide much of it from the kids - it isn't their
burden to bear. I've stayed awake, tossing and turning in bed, waiting to
hear the door open and know they're safely home. And I've asked them to come
in and give me a little kiss on the cheek and tell me they're home, because
I sleep more soundly knowing that. They understand. Whether or not I worried
depended on ages and who they were going out with - and maybe it is a little
different with girls than with boys, I'm not sure.



I never had a lack of trust or confidence in my kids, though. It was, for me
about traffic and drunk drivers (the other guy, not my kids) and the
potential for car accidents. I've been hit by drunk drivers twice and Roya
was hit once. Maybe that's more a southern California thing (although Roya
was hit up in Northern California). I was always perfectly able to sleep
soundly if I knew they were somewhere that they were going to stay. It is
the driving around part that worries me. Two of my three don't live here
(Rox is here most weekends) and if I wake up in the middle of the night, and
Rosie isn't home, I text her and just say "hi" and she texts me back and I
say "good night" and go back to sleep more peacefully.



-pam











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I
guess I'll go look see if Sandra or Joyce have "worry" pages on their
website. I *know* I'm better at dealing with worry than my folks and
their parents were. For sure!-=-

Just the way the "screw it up" list is the way not to screw it up, my
whole site, and Joyce's, and all of unschooling, is about how not to
worry.

http://sandradodd.com/screwitup

If you determine to choose not to do what will hurt, then what you
have left is what will help.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-This caught my eye: "all night if necessary."

-=-Worrying, right? -=-

It didn't seem to me, when my mom stayed up, that she was worrying. I
think she was staying up hoping she would win. She was betting
against me, that I would be late, and then I'd be in trouble, and then
she would win. When I came in on time did I "win"? Not if staying
out would have been more fun. I came home to avoid punishment. So
when I came home she had won, too. I stayed out until the last
possible moment because being allowed out was a limited (and timed)
privilege.

I'm glad for anyone whose mom stayed up worried, and *if* my mom was
worried, I wish it had looked more like love and less like spiteful
resentment.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Whether or not I worried
depended on ages and who they were going out with - and maybe it is a
little
different with girls than with boys, I'm not sure. -=-

In my experience it is different with girls. Even though Holly is
strong-willed and quick witted, I still worry about her physical
safety more than I do or ever did about Kirby or Marty.

One morning before sunup Holly was still up and went for a walk up the
bike trail. I think she was thirteen or so. (If anyone remembers,
I'd be happy to be corrected or reminded about the age.) I was upset
and asked her to at least take the dog if she ever did that again,
which I didn't think she should ever do again. She was upset in
return and said I wasn't like that with the boys. I said she wasn't a
boy. And she had dropped out of karate too early to defend herself,
and I didn't want to talk about what my fears were. Rape. Kidnap.
Murder. The big stuff.

She was offended and felt I was a big sexist poop. I was shocked that
she would be so irresponsible with my baby girl. <g>

So I turned the whole deal over to Keith. He reassured me and
persuaded her that it might not be such a great idea, leaving the
house in the dark when people didn't know where she had gone.

She went to a concert of Scarless, her favorite local band, a week and
some ago, downtown at The Launchpad. She had the Ford Taurus. She
parked in one of those ratty little pay-per-space parking lots where
you put the money in a numbered slot and then park in that number.
Not only not electric, not even mechanical. When she came out there
was a boot on the car. Not a nice carboot-boot like in England. <g>
A big old flat anchor on one of the wheels. For not paying. There's
no way in the world to prove you paid in one of those places. They
wanted $100 to take it off. She had to walk a few blocks, she said,
to get cash. She had also had to call Marty to transfer money from
her savings to checking.

Holly was frustrated about the unfairness of it.
My thoughts were about that too, at first, and I offered to go and
find the company that did that and tell them off and get some or all
of her money back. They didn't even give her a receipt, not a card.
And the flyer that was on the car when she came out, they took off and
kept. That frustrated me. But my deep mom thoughts were that the
car was her safety, her tank. It was the place she could open with
that key, and get into, and lock herself up and come home. She had a
car so she did NOT have to walk around downtown Albuquerque late at
night. But that was me, again, with my ugly mom-fears. For her it
was $102 (because it cost her $2 to get the cash out).

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vidyut Kale

I grew up with a grandmother who loved me to bits. I was never hit and
scolded very rarely, and those moments I can still remember. One was when I
was very young. It was summer holidays, and I went out to play in the
morning, and went over to my best friend's house to watch cartoons or
something because the idea came up. Had lunch there. Around tea time, a
frantic grandmother arrived there after having searched the entire vicinity
and asked at the homes of other friends (no phone). She was so relieved when
she saw me, and was almost in tears. Her "scolding" was "Do NOT go without
telling where and when you are coming back". I never had to be told again.

When she became old, and I went to stay with my parents, the habit stuck. My
dad was verbally abusive, and our relationship was bad, but I still used to
inform (rather arrogantly at times). I didn't lie because he was so awful to
me anyway, what did it matter what he thought of me? So it could be "Going
out. Back by 2am". "Where?" - "On the corner, chatting with friends." "Why
so late?" - "I like the night. Its less crowded. More space." However, I was
always back before the stated time and told him that if I wasn't back by
whatever time I said, to go ahead and call the cops. I meant it. I used it
as a safety measure.

On the other hand, my husband and his brothers are always out of the house
and never inform, are never back on time. It sometimes seems like they
return home when all other options are gone. My husband will inform me, but
will still almost always return after she has gone to sleep. Their mother is
very controlling, and acts all wronged and tortured when they don't do what
she thinks is appropriate. She will never speak with them directly, but talk
about them to everyone except them. If I am out of town or otherwise out
overnight, my husband will simply not come home at all without informing.
His brother often is out all night. My husband and his brother do what they
want and avoid all conversation around it, including informing. They will be
home in the evening if she is not at home. They inform me if they will be
late, but not their own mother. There is no conflict between them, just
complete avoidance.

So I think that it is also about how easily I can be me (for whatever
reason) at home. In a way, even by insulting, my father unintentionally
freed me to be myself by removing the need to lie to be liked. And the
grandmother liked me no matter what. So I could be me as I was, even if I
was coming late.

Vidyut


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Yeh.. I understand this about seeming more interested in winning rather than
having any worry. I felt much of the time that there was a sizable amount of
this going on when I was coming up too. On both my parents part. I know they
genuinely worried as well in with the unexamined and antagonistic maxim of
always winning.

The largest share of that worry is avoidable through trust, which many
parents don't have for their kids. When I was in my late 20s, my dad (saying
it was a joke) warned me not to share any needles. ??!! My parents knew me
so little and had extremely unrealistic ideas about what my life consisted
of. Good grief. That episode felt to me as though the relationship could
never be close, mostly because the dynamics were set in place and maintained
not by the child but by the parents. It's so unnecessary ... it isn't even
based on reality or a fun imagination. It just has things all kind of
backwards.

~Katherine



On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-This caught my eye: "all night if necessary."
>
> -=-Worrying, right? -=-
>
> It didn't seem to me, when my mom stayed up, that she was worrying. I
> think she was staying up hoping she would win. She was betting
> against me, that I would be late, and then I'd be in trouble, and then
> she would win. When I came in on time did I "win"? Not if staying
> out would have been more fun. I came home to avoid punishment. So
> when I came home she had won, too. I stayed out until the last
> possible moment because being allowed out was a limited (and timed)
> privilege.
>
> I'm glad for anyone whose mom stayed up worried, and *if* my mom was
> worried, I wish it had looked more like love and less like spiteful
> resentment.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]