Sandra Dodd

The discussion of choices is interesting, and isn't new, and will
continue to come up forever, because there's always someone new to the
idea.

Part of being a child's partner, in my opinion and experience, is not
deciding years in advance what that child will or won't want to do.
We can have hopes and dreams, but can we make declarations? I would
like for Marty to never smoke cigarettes, but his girlfriend smokes,
and he has occasionally. If he starts to smoke, can I still love
him? It depends in part how strongly I've stated my objections or
prejudices or intentions.

This is a quote made anonymous. I'm using my own son's name in the
spot of someone else's.

"Okay, its world war three, and as usual, I’m in the thick of things.
This time, it is the declaration that Marty will not go to school. "

Let's say the for discussion purposes, Marty is less than a year old.

Someone asked me to explain, a week or so ago, what I meant when I
said negativity was bad for children. If it's "world war
three" (figuratively speaking) and the mom is, as usual, in the thick
of things, how much peace can Marty be having?

We started unschooling when Marty was two and a half. Kirby was newly
five. When people asked about it, we said Kirby wasn't going to
school, but Marty might, later, if he wanted to. We figured Marty
might want to.

That wasn't a decision I made for Marty two years or four years in
advance. And it was NOT world war three! It was happy Kirby and
Marty world. It was moment by moment sweetness that was not all about
me and what I wanted.

What came of that, over days and months and years was that each of my
children chose to stay home with me. Not one of them could have
chosen that if he or she hadn't had any choice.

At the heart of what we're talking about--all this unschooling, all
this parenting, is the deep value of partnership and choices.



Sandra

Vidyut Kale

Interesting take on my words. Leads to much reflection. Interesting the
assumptions I already make on his behalf.

I hadn't realized how they appear to someone who doesn't know me. I agree
with much of what you said. I'm going to look like a fool if Nisarga wants
to go to school. Its not impossible - kids are supposed to be unpredictable
(talk of oxymoron). I guess, if that is what he wants, it would be fine.
Just seems unlikely that a child would choose school over joining parents in
travel and adventure; play and computers. That would also be the end of my
wanderlust days :D Or perhaps they have ended already, and I'm just raising
ghosts...

The other possibility is that the little guy may not want to go to school,
but the outdoors could bore him... I'd still be landed solidly home.

That would be then, and I imagine I'd follow his choice of life adventure,
complete with landing up at the same place day after day. At least that is
the intention.

No point getting into too many castles in the air for fun. What if unfun
panned out? From experience, I know that I'd go with the flow, but... it
wouldn't be as much fun as 'my choice'. Hmm...

Vidyut


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Sandra Dodd

-=-kids are supposed to be unpredictable
(talk of oxymoron). I guess, if that is what he wants, it would be
fine.-=-

Kids aren't so unpredictable to people who know them well, but it
seems a little early to decide his life for him. There's your vision
for his life and there's your mother in law's, neither of which seems
to be taking into consideration what he might want to do. But there's
still time.

The problem is that you've created something to argue about when there
was no reason to argue about it at all. And the argument came to
this list, when there was no reason to argue about it at all anywhere.

"If that's what he wants" isn't the problem. If a mother makes a
decision the child needs to try to counteract, they're not partners.
If the only way the child "wins" is to make a decision that goes
against his mother's pre-stated preference, one wins and one loses.
Being partners, waiting to get to know your child and see what he
wants is a different world from setting a path (however traditional or
radical) and then trying to steer him on it.

It's putting the mother's needs and desires before the child's. It's
not a good long range plan to make unschooling work well.

Sandra

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Vidyut Kale

"If a mother makes a decision the child needs to try to counteract, they're
not partners. "

You seem to see this as a rather dishonest process of "setting up" the child
for something that will need counteracting for him to act from a place for
freedom. What is happening here is a process of sharing my resolve and my
attitude on the subject of his education with people who play important
roles in his life. It is completely here and now, and has nothing to do with
what he decides, which will be his decision. I can't make it for him, and
I'm not making it for him.

In this case, what seems to you a decision the child will need to
counteract, to someone living in that situation is simply telling people to
lay off the traditional discipline and milestones and teaching
merry-go-round and open their minds to the fact that there is something
different coming up, and that someone feels strongly about it. It is the act
of putting it on the table, refusing to see it removed, talking about it,
describing, sharing, challenging conventional views, sharing some ground
rules that apply right now - school or not - freedom of learning, for
example - whether it is fist in drooly mouth or taking apart toy engines.
Its like saying a lot of yes. Its an attitude change. They need to go
through a process of acceptance with a drastically different idea. All the
argument has provided a way for us to find a working merge of minds.

I don't see this the same as making a decision the child needs to
counteract. Plans are plans, recommendations are recommendations, actions
are actions. I had planned on exclusive breastfeeding for the first six
months. The doctor recommends to give him a taste of light pureed stuff to
"get him used to it". What is actually playing out, and unanimously in the
house is that he will show interest when he is ready. No disagreement,
though earlier there had been plenty. I see this possible only because we
can face storms head on when we spot them on the horizon rather than throw
the child around through conflicting actions by not looking at differences
when we could.

Without that earlier "declaration of breastfeeding for 6 months at least"
and the ensuing flurry of advice, debates and what not, today, I would be
getting stressed trying to keep the MIL from sneaking him tastes of solids,
the husband from feeling pressured and unsure about what happens and when,
myself from the pressure of breastfeeding a growing child till a certain
date, rather than needs.... We looked at all sides of the coin and arrived
together at this place where he gets to breastfeed as long as possible,
exclusively as long as he doesn't show interest in other stuff, or I have
adequate milk, and feed him at whatever pace comes without stress.

Today, there is movement from "your mother is depriving you of education" to
"Your mother has crazy ideas". I am hoping to see us being able to work to a
place of acceptance for what unfolds according to his desires. If rather
than declaring that he will not go to school, I say that he will go to
school only if he wants it, no one is going to accept it - "kids have to
accept grown up decisions" is their mental model - he'll have the entire
world on his case trying to brainwash him into asking for school. If I do
nothing about it, this storm is going to burst when he is capable of
understanding the many words being thrown around about his future and his
mother and with a decision to make riding on his neck, where he will be
under a lot of pressure to decide. I don't think it would be fair on him.
Maybe I might be unintentionally making a decision he would have to
counteract, but he'll find plenty of support for that. On the other hand, if
I left him to make it without even creating acceptance for the possibility,
he would be facing the storm right along with me.

I think our cultures are different. I understand that in the west it is
common for families to be completely autonomous and if others don't like,
they can stay away. It is not possible for me to alienate family, not just
culturally, but I see it as a process of throwing the baby with the
bathwater to let disagreements come in the way of a child getting that
special relationship that grandparents bring in his life. Crazy, but equally
true, I couldn't alienate them through anything I do - they will not get
alienated either, just hurt. I must manage responses with minimal damage to
my child and everyone, and maximum possibilities left open.

I understand your concern that it is too early to decide his life for him
and agree. What is happening in that post you quoted is no decision on his
life, but a process of creating space for his freedom by getting the 'storm'
out of the way. That blog is mostly read by family and friends. It is a way
of getting the word out, of removing the shame and illegitimacy of not going
to school before my child is old enough to have pressure from these
'stigmas' that forces him to conform.

Vidyut

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:40 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=-kids are supposed to be unpredictable
>
> (talk of oxymoron). I guess, if that is what he wants, it would be
> fine.-=-
>
> Kids aren't so unpredictable to people who know them well, but it
> seems a little early to decide his life for him. There's your vision
> for his life and there's your mother in law's, neither of which seems
> to be taking into consideration what he might want to do. But there's
> still time.
>
> The problem is that you've created something to argue about when there
> was no reason to argue about it at all. And the argument came to
> this list, when there was no reason to argue about it at all anywhere.
>
> "If that's what he wants" isn't the problem. If a mother makes a
> decision the child needs to try to counteract, they're not partners.
> If the only way the child "wins" is to make a decision that goes
> against his mother's pre-stated preference, one wins and one loses.
> Being partners, waiting to get to know your child and see what he
> wants is a different world from setting a path (however traditional or
> radical) and then trying to steer him on it.
>
> It's putting the mother's needs and desires before the child's. It's
> not a good long range plan to make unschooling work well.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

Sandra wrote:

"If a mother makes a decision the child needs to try to counteract, they're
not partners. "

Vidyut Kale wrote:
> I understand your concern that it is too early to decide his life for him
> and agree.
If you agree, then the rest of what your wrote on at length about was
superfluous.

Please note the use of the word "If" in both what Sandra wrote and what
I wrote. Go back and read both our statements above, please.

You completely ignored the "if" and went on and on as if Sandra had
said, to you, "You will not be partners with your child."

If you read more carefully, you would maybe have said to yourself, "Ah,
Sandra is pointing out that 'if' I make a decision the child needs to
try to counteract....then I'd be setting us up as adversaries, rather
than partners. That seems true "IF" I was doing that. I wonder if I am
making decisions the child will feel he needs to counteract, later." And
you would PONDER that question, all by yourself, in your own head. And,
"IF" you don't feel you're doing that, you'll just think, to yourself,
that you're not doing that, and you'll move on because it doesn't apply
to YOU. And if, as you ponder, you think, "I might be doing that, so I
should become more aware of the possibility," then it might apply to you
and now you know it and you can move on with that understanding. And if,
as you ponder, you think, "Oh dear - that DOES apply to me and I should
stop doing that," then you have become aware of a problem and you can
change it and move on.

The ONLY reason you would need to respond here on this list would be if
you wish to discuss the statement itself - the IDEA of whether or not
the statement makes sense or why it does or doesn't make sense - as an
idea - not whether it applies to you, personally, in your own life. You
don't need to defend your own decisions here - those are yours to make.

I've noticed something about people who write in glowing ideals and in
flowing and lovely imagery, that the thinking ability, their analytical
ability, can benefit a lot if they make a conscious decision to speak
with more simple clarity. It is an exercise that is useful. The glowing
idealism and beautiful imagery is wonderful for being inspiring - I'm
not saying it is always a bad thing. I'm saying that there is value to
be gained from going back to some of the stuff written like that and
chopping it down to the bare minimum - find the logic, or lack of logic,
in it. Some people don't read each word and go, instead, for an overall
feeling created by the stream of words. But this is a critical analysis
discussion list and we ask that people try to use words carefully -
we're not looking for poetic writing here, but for logical thinking.

-pam

m_kher

--- In [email protected], Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:

> Without that earlier "declaration of breastfeeding for 6 months at least"
> and the ensuing flurry of advice, debates and what not, today, I would be
> getting stressed trying to keep the MIL from sneaking him tastes of solids,
> the husband from feeling pressured and unsure about what happens and when,
> myself from the pressure of breastfeeding a growing child till a certain
> date, rather than needs....

It's possible that the reason Grandma is not trying to sneak solids into the baby is that she sees that he's growing nicely and is not crying with hunger. I'd like you to ponder on this idea that perhaps the lack of trying to feed him solids has very little to do with your "declaration" and much more to do with the reality of a healthy growing baby. And perhaps if she see's him being hungry she'll try to feed him because she loves him. I do not want you to write here about whether this is possible or not. I want you to think about it.

> That blog is mostly read by family and friends. It is a way
> of getting the word out, of removing the shame and illegitimacy of not going
> to school before my child is old enough to have pressure from these
> 'stigmas' that forces him to conform.

That stigma will go only when they see him learning things without going to school. My kids are 10 and 8 and when asked about how long I plan to homeschool, I continue to say things like "we're taking it year by year" or "as long as it works". I believe that was the advice I got here or on UnschoolingDiscussion. Maybe next time I'm in India, I'll bring over my children as "proof" :-)

I think you have started a storm that need not have been started for two more years. Sometimes it's easier to slide into homeschooling by saying things like "not this year... We're not quite ready..." It may feel dishonest, but sometimes it's worth maintaining peace.

Manisha

Marina DeLuca-Howard

My kids haven chosen school and have withdrawn, but by age four they were
used to choices. School looked good and had a prominent place in
literature, television, and movies. Home based learning seemed unnamed and
was invisible. They chose school and with a vegetarian mother chose meat,
too.

Here is the comprehensive list of choices they made prior to age three:
They chose when to breastfeed; chose how much, what, and when they ate;
chose when to learn to sit up; when to fall asleep, when to crawl; when to
walk and when to learn to self-toilet. They also chose how much clothing to
wear. I learned to trust they knew when they were cold or hot or needed
something and they in turn trusted that I would take their needs seriously
so they were able to communicate them. They also were all early talkers
with the youngest Crispin using two word sentences at eight months old--his
choice to talk and mine to listen. By six months Rowan was choosing which
food to eat, and adeptly getting some of it to his mouth. Marty started
grabbing at food before six months(banana, and avocado) and getting it to
his mouth. Crispin learned to walk before nine months, well, he learned to
run actually:) Rowan was writing out random letters of the alphabet by age
one and a half. I always gave encouragment and opportunities. I supplied
paper and writing supplies but I was expecting drawings, not letters! In
truth I wasn't even expecting the drawings--I just thought it would be fun
to put colour on paper and offered him the supplies.

They chose when to leave school, too. But while they were in school I
fought for them, and we learned about empowerment and working with
bureaucracy. I didn't enjoy the endless meetings and crazy circular
arguments in favor of report cards/homework or the school admin's refusal to
admit the bullying and mind games engaged in by both teachers and students.
But when we hit a wall my kids agreed leaving was a good option. It was an
option I reminded them they had, but I supported their choices and worked
with them.

Marina



--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


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diana jenner

**No point getting into too many castles in the air for fun. What if
unfun panned out? From experience, I know that I'd go with the flow, but...
it wouldn't be as much fun as 'my choice'. Hmm...**

First, you're not talking about a choice (as in something real and current),
you're talking about a pipe dream.
You have a human child, not a pipe-dream-fulfiller. This childhood belongs
to *him* not to your dreams.
Nor is it fair that a mere few months into parenting, you already judge
differing opinions as less fun than your (future imagined) choices.
I've been led down many a new path by many a new passion of my son's -- oh
my! They're not my passions, they are surely his & I am on his passion team.

We've all had childhoods, they're over. This childhood is the child's very
own, one and only. This childhood is my one and only chance to be my kids
parent.
After acute parenting, your wunderlust will remain/return. Or not.

**Just seems unlikely that a child would choose school over joining parents
in travel and adventure; play and computers. That would also be the end of
my wanderlust days :D Or perhaps they have ended already, and I'm just
raising
ghosts...**

Funny choice of words. I'll talk about some real ghosts ;) It's unlikely
men die at 32, though my husband did. Or daughters at 9, like mine. Or mamas
when their kids are still young, like my friend Lisa, two years ago. It
happens.
Shit happens.Shit happens and sometimes BIG choices are taken away. (as are
pipe dreams, they like to linger and sting, though, if you can't let go --
hence the above warning)
Doing the best with the right here right now is the ultimate gift to the
whole world. For real. The world that counts, the one you live in with your
child.
No need to stir up extra shit over a tomorrow that may never come. NONE!
Give that extra time and energy to looking into your child's face, smelling
their hair, truly appreciating their laughter.
Knowing what an honor it is to care so deeply and tenderly for one you've
invited into this world, for just a moment of your life, for a tiny precious
blip of time.
It all matters.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com


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