An all-new question
Sandra Dodd
This was asked in the side, somewhere, and I thought it might be fun
for the list.
-=-I sometimes worry though, that if I raise my daughter to be a free
thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
My first thought is "what are the options?"
I might write more tomorrow; I hope it's been answered a dozen clever
ways by the time I get back here. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for the list.
-=-I sometimes worry though, that if I raise my daughter to be a free
thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
My first thought is "what are the options?"
I might write more tomorrow; I hope it's been answered a dozen clever
ways by the time I get back here. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we
are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most
frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous,
talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of
God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened
about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are
all meant to shine, as children do. We are born to make manifest the glory
of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And
as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission
to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence
automatically liberates others." The above speech by Nelson Mandela was
orignally written by Marianne Williamson who is the author of other similar
material."
- Marianne Williamson, Return to Love.
are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most
frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous,
talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of
God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened
about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are
all meant to shine, as children do. We are born to make manifest the glory
of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And
as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission
to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence
automatically liberates others." The above speech by Nelson Mandela was
orignally written by Marianne Williamson who is the author of other similar
material."
- Marianne Williamson, Return to Love.
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> This was asked in the side, somewhere, and I thought it might be fun
> for the list.
>
> -=-I sometimes worry though, that if I raise my daughter to be a free
> thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
> getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
> defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
> I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
> wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
>
> My first thought is "what are the options?"
>
> I might write more tomorrow; I hope it's been answered a dozen clever
> ways by the time I get back here. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
Are you raising your daughter in the United States? If so, then you are not living in a police state. Hopefully this won't change, but we live in a place with lots of opportunities, and the more inner resources, including creative and original thinking, that a person has, the more interesting pathways they can access. I've seen and met homeschooled and unschooled kids who are taking very unique views to the question of what they want to be as they grow up, and that is a source of inspiration and hope!
School doesn't insure that a person will be a round peg--and I think tons of parents on this list who have always felt different and unique, and have chosen a different and unique way to live their lives with their children can attest to that. Most of us have not been homeschooled.
Hopefully, having been raised outside of the education system, she will feel more empowered and more hopeful about her impact on her world. I think school is the perfect place to explore powerlessness, so the antidote is...
Joanna
School doesn't insure that a person will be a round peg--and I think tons of parents on this list who have always felt different and unique, and have chosen a different and unique way to live their lives with their children can attest to that. Most of us have not been homeschooled.
Hopefully, having been raised outside of the education system, she will feel more empowered and more hopeful about her impact on her world. I think school is the perfect place to explore powerlessness, so the antidote is...
Joanna
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> This was asked in the side, somewhere, and I thought it might be fun
> for the list.
>
> -=-I sometimes worry though, that if I raise my daughter to be a free
> thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
> getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
> defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
> I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
> wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
>
> My first thought is "what are the options?"
>
> I might write more tomorrow; I hope it's been answered a dozen clever
> ways by the time I get back here. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
> -=-I sometimes worry though, that if I raise my daughter to be a freeI think there are more choices than powerlessly aware and blissfully
> thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
> getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
> defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
> I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
> wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
ignorant!
Knowledge is power. Self confidence is power. Felling empowered is
power.
I think achieving a true state of blissful ignorance is dependent on
personality, how untuned someone is to their world and how tuned they
are to their own niche. And that won't apply to very many people! So
it's not something you can give to a child.
I suspect ignorance is more likely to create someone who has a
growing fear there's something to worry about but is afraid to find
out and feels powerless on how someone would take action.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treesock
I think societies throughout history have gone through periods of more social control. In times such as those, it may be the people who can name and question those controls rather than assuming "this is just the way it is" who will be more whole and better able to navigate their own lives. Sure, it will probably be frustrating. But would you rather be frustrated because a) you can see how great things could be, and you're struggling to carve out a place for that greatness in your own life and world, or b) there's a lingering sense that something's wrong, but you can't really understand why you feel miserable a lot of the time, why other people can't just tow the line, why the "ills of society" aren't getting better, etc.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> This was asked in the side, somewhere, and I thought it might be fun
> for the list.
>
> -=-I sometimes worry though, that if I raise my daughter to be a free
> thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
> getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
> defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
> I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
> wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
>
> My first thought is "what are the options?"
>
> I might write more tomorrow; I hope it's been answered a dozen clever
> ways by the time I get back here. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think societies throughout history have gone through periods of
more social control.-=-
During WWII, famously, stories of air raid rules and blackouts and
rationing. It wasn't ideal it was an emergency.
In any situation in which a government "cracks down" (checks your
pockets and shoes before you can board a plane), being an unschooler
doesn't save you. Having gone to school probably doesn't make it any
more pleasant.
Being reactionary and negative probably is worse than either of those
other two. I have a brother-in-law whose hobby is pissing and moaning
about every thing and every person. He's just decided he will NOT get
a passport, he will simply never travel again rather than subject
himself to more government scrutiny.
I think that's a good idea. He spreads noise and frustration wherever
he goes. He SHOULD stay home. His kids will not be visiting him;
they quit listening to him years ago.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
more social control.-=-
During WWII, famously, stories of air raid rules and blackouts and
rationing. It wasn't ideal it was an emergency.
In any situation in which a government "cracks down" (checks your
pockets and shoes before you can board a plane), being an unschooler
doesn't save you. Having gone to school probably doesn't make it any
more pleasant.
Being reactionary and negative probably is worse than either of those
other two. I have a brother-in-law whose hobby is pissing and moaning
about every thing and every person. He's just decided he will NOT get
a passport, he will simply never travel again rather than subject
himself to more government scrutiny.
I think that's a good idea. He spreads noise and frustration wherever
he goes. He SHOULD stay home. His kids will not be visiting him;
they quit listening to him years ago.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamela kaplan
-=-I sometimes worry though, that if I raise my daughter to be a free
thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
This isn't the situation the OP was describing, but I think it's related.
My mom set out to raise me in a mostly unschooly way. She had John Holt
books on her bookshelves. She was a gentle, mindful parent. She supported
my interests and served as a partner with me as I explored the world. I was
a free thinker, a free kid. It was a sweet & lovely childhood.
But then she died when I was six. Without my mom as a buffer, my father's
mentally illness became a prominent part of my life. He was abusive to me,
and not at all equipped to be a parent. He remarried. My stepmother was
very controlling and judgmental and had a lot of beliefs about How Dangerous
Life Is. Her home was kinda like a "police state" as far as I was
concerned. I was definitely a round peg in a house of square holes, and it
was very painful. But I *remembered* my childhood with my mom. I *knew*
that there were other possibilities. That knowledge saved me from
helplessness and defeat. I suffered through some verrrrrry unhappy years, a
whole lot of wrongness, but the whole time I knew that eventually I'd
escape, and that I'd eventually find joy.
Here I am. J
National politics swing back and forth, back and forth.. In my opinion,
being a free thinker, and having a happy, peaceful beginning, is the best
possible way to cope with those inevitable swings..
~pamela k
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
This isn't the situation the OP was describing, but I think it's related.
My mom set out to raise me in a mostly unschooly way. She had John Holt
books on her bookshelves. She was a gentle, mindful parent. She supported
my interests and served as a partner with me as I explored the world. I was
a free thinker, a free kid. It was a sweet & lovely childhood.
But then she died when I was six. Without my mom as a buffer, my father's
mentally illness became a prominent part of my life. He was abusive to me,
and not at all equipped to be a parent. He remarried. My stepmother was
very controlling and judgmental and had a lot of beliefs about How Dangerous
Life Is. Her home was kinda like a "police state" as far as I was
concerned. I was definitely a round peg in a house of square holes, and it
was very painful. But I *remembered* my childhood with my mom. I *knew*
that there were other possibilities. That knowledge saved me from
helplessness and defeat. I suffered through some verrrrrry unhappy years, a
whole lot of wrongness, but the whole time I knew that eventually I'd
escape, and that I'd eventually find joy.
Here I am. J
National politics swing back and forth, back and forth.. In my opinion,
being a free thinker, and having a happy, peaceful beginning, is the best
possible way to cope with those inevitable swings..
~pamela k
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- It was a sweet & lovely childhood.
-=-But then she died when I was six. -=-
There, I think, is the most frightening part of trying to create an
ideal situation for our children, is the idea that one might not live
to complete the project.
We had a plan early on, but things changed, and I know I'm fortunate
not to have needed the bail-out plan. Holly lately turned 18. Marty
turned 21. Legally, they won't need a guardian if something happens
to me and Keith now. Much of that was luck. I've been in accidents,
been ill, ridden airplanes... It's not that I was good and God or the
universe gave me longer life. I didn't "manifest" anything. I
happened to live.
There have been a few unschooling parents who didn't live, and it
makes me feel really good to read what you wrote, Pamela K:
-=-But I *remembered* my childhood with my mom. I *knew*
that there were other possibilities. That knowledge saved me from
helplessness and defeat. I suffered through some verrrrrry unhappy
years, a
whole lot of wrongness, but the whole time I knew that eventually I'd
escape, and that I'd eventually find joy.
-=-... In my opinion,
being a free thinker, and having a happy, peaceful beginning, is the
best
possible way to cope with those inevitable swings..-=-
Thanks VERY much for writing that, and I'm sorry you lost your sweet
mother.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-But then she died when I was six. -=-
There, I think, is the most frightening part of trying to create an
ideal situation for our children, is the idea that one might not live
to complete the project.
We had a plan early on, but things changed, and I know I'm fortunate
not to have needed the bail-out plan. Holly lately turned 18. Marty
turned 21. Legally, they won't need a guardian if something happens
to me and Keith now. Much of that was luck. I've been in accidents,
been ill, ridden airplanes... It's not that I was good and God or the
universe gave me longer life. I didn't "manifest" anything. I
happened to live.
There have been a few unschooling parents who didn't live, and it
makes me feel really good to read what you wrote, Pamela K:
-=-But I *remembered* my childhood with my mom. I *knew*
that there were other possibilities. That knowledge saved me from
helplessness and defeat. I suffered through some verrrrrry unhappy
years, a
whole lot of wrongness, but the whole time I knew that eventually I'd
escape, and that I'd eventually find joy.
-=-... In my opinion,
being a free thinker, and having a happy, peaceful beginning, is the
best
possible way to cope with those inevitable swings..-=-
Thanks VERY much for writing that, and I'm sorry you lost your sweet
mother.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lovelukira
I think this article by Peter Gray, titled "The Dramatic Rise of Anxiety and Depression in Children and Adolescents: Is It Connected to the Decline in Play and Rise in Schooling? " might be relevant, if not helpful.
http://tinyurl.com/yh83z4e
Lisa
http://tinyurl.com/yh83z4e
Lisa
Jenny Cyphers
-=-I sometimes worry though, that if I raise my daughter to be a free
thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
Haha! My first thought was, "there's always going to be rock and roll!"
All those round pegs will help keep the world round! I have a very non-conformist daughter, yet, she's not out to change the world either, she's not out to prove anything. I remember when I was a teen and I see teens today do this too, rebelling for the sake of rebelling, doing lots of reactionary damage, just out to prove their parents are wrong, or the system is wrong.
I've always felt like a round peg in a world of square holes, but I've found ways to fit in and be at peace with the world, even the things I really dislike.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thinker in this day and age, will she grow up unhappy, if it keeps
getting more and more "police state" will she feel helpless and
defeated.... knowing it's wrong but unable to do anything about it. Am
I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes? Kinda
wanted your thoughts on that, if you have the time. -=-
Haha! My first thought was, "there's always going to be rock and roll!"
All those round pegs will help keep the world round! I have a very non-conformist daughter, yet, she's not out to change the world either, she's not out to prove anything. I remember when I was a teen and I see teens today do this too, rebelling for the sake of rebelling, doing lots of reactionary damage, just out to prove their parents are wrong, or the system is wrong.
I've always felt like a round peg in a world of square holes, but I've found ways to fit in and be at peace with the world, even the things I really dislike.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> AmI actually think of it as a "square peg in a round hole" because most
> I raising her to be a round peg in a world of square holes?
round pegs would fit in the square holes with little problem!
In that case <g>, I hardly think the world is full of round pegs! More
square pegs are being squeezed into round holes in school than
anywhere. If anyone might feel helpless to make a difference, it would
be those kids, not ours. It takes us square pegs (many of us parents
are, too) years to get over that whittling down of our pointy edges
and to get them to grow back again. If your daughter maintains her
edges, she's in better shape from the get-go.
Robin B.
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/27/2010 12:33 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
into square holes don't have that feeling about themselves. I know "I"
looked fine - I looked like a very conforming kid, for the most part. I
was careful about my rebellions - didn't get myself into much trouble -
didn't get noticed very much at all.
But - in answer to the original concern - my grown young adult kids do
sometimes not fit in. For example, they do have some trouble taking
directions from "superiors" for example, when they think the person is
being stupid or mean. They do really quite well in getting along,
anyway, but when they find themselves in those kinds of situations, they
start figuring out how to get out of them as quickly as possible. That
seems like a good thing, to me, but I can see how some parents might
view it as their kids not being able to "handle" certain kinds of
situations. Roxana was pretty miserable working at a department store,
for a few months, because of how incompetent the management was. She
didn't seem able to just accept it and live with it easily. Well - it
must have been pretty bad - it was Mervyn's and not long after that they
went out of business, so maybe it was just really exceptionally bad.
Maybe they should have listened to her - she could have told them some
things about how badly the stores were being run. <G>
Roya LOVES her job, but has had some frustration with a couple of
different bosses. But, that's probably more her personality - she's
bossy, herself. But, from that experience, she's figured out that she'd
be way better off and happier to be her own boss and she's taking steps
to get herself into that position. So - again - that seems like a good
thing.
Even though my kids have hung out with groups of friends who are more
conventional - schooled kids, etc., I will say that they and their
unschooled friends do seem, to me, to stand out in some ways - they do
seem different. Not that there are not lots of very cool other kids -
I'm not saying that the unschooled kids are "better" than the others.
But there are some things schooled kids do that seem very normal to them
and very NOT normal to the unschooled kids. There is a petty jabbing
verbal teasing/insulting way of relating to each other, among most
teenagers, that seemed to always leave my kids feeling just bewildered
and a bit hurt, but not really "getting" what was happening and feeling
oddly a bit left out. Again - can't generalize to all unschoolers, but
I've seen that with some others, too.
Is that the kind of not fitting in that was meant? I'm not sure.
-pam
> I've always felt like a round peg in a world of square holes, but I've found ways to fit in and be at peace with the world, even the things I really dislike.I think lots of kids who look like they are square pegs fitting nicely
>
into square holes don't have that feeling about themselves. I know "I"
looked fine - I looked like a very conforming kid, for the most part. I
was careful about my rebellions - didn't get myself into much trouble -
didn't get noticed very much at all.
But - in answer to the original concern - my grown young adult kids do
sometimes not fit in. For example, they do have some trouble taking
directions from "superiors" for example, when they think the person is
being stupid or mean. They do really quite well in getting along,
anyway, but when they find themselves in those kinds of situations, they
start figuring out how to get out of them as quickly as possible. That
seems like a good thing, to me, but I can see how some parents might
view it as their kids not being able to "handle" certain kinds of
situations. Roxana was pretty miserable working at a department store,
for a few months, because of how incompetent the management was. She
didn't seem able to just accept it and live with it easily. Well - it
must have been pretty bad - it was Mervyn's and not long after that they
went out of business, so maybe it was just really exceptionally bad.
Maybe they should have listened to her - she could have told them some
things about how badly the stores were being run. <G>
Roya LOVES her job, but has had some frustration with a couple of
different bosses. But, that's probably more her personality - she's
bossy, herself. But, from that experience, she's figured out that she'd
be way better off and happier to be her own boss and she's taking steps
to get herself into that position. So - again - that seems like a good
thing.
Even though my kids have hung out with groups of friends who are more
conventional - schooled kids, etc., I will say that they and their
unschooled friends do seem, to me, to stand out in some ways - they do
seem different. Not that there are not lots of very cool other kids -
I'm not saying that the unschooled kids are "better" than the others.
But there are some things schooled kids do that seem very normal to them
and very NOT normal to the unschooled kids. There is a petty jabbing
verbal teasing/insulting way of relating to each other, among most
teenagers, that seemed to always leave my kids feeling just bewildered
and a bit hurt, but not really "getting" what was happening and feeling
oddly a bit left out. Again - can't generalize to all unschoolers, but
I've seen that with some others, too.
Is that the kind of not fitting in that was meant? I'm not sure.
-pam
Shira Rocklin
"There is a petty jabbing
verbal teasing/insulting way of relating to each other, among most
teenagers, that seemed to always leave my kids feeling just bewildered
and a bit hurt, but not really "getting" what was happening and feeling
oddly a bit left out. Again - can't generalize to all unschoolers, but
I've seen that with some others, too."
I was schooled, but I mostly felt the way that your teens felt, in that
not having had much television as a child, I was always missing the key
points of conversations, or not understanding the sexual inuendo, not
getting the jokes, didn't listen to popular music so had no idea what
was going on most of the time.
Can we explore this further? Do other's feel their unschooled teenagers
also experience this? Is it just dependent on personality type? Or
does it have something in particular to do with being unschooled/schooled?
I think this is sort of the fear that many non-homeschoolers, or
anti-homeschoolers, are voicing when they say that children not schooled
will not be 'socialized'. And the stock homeschool answer is to give
all the examples of opportunities to socialize with all different types
of people that exist for homeschoolers that schoolers generally miss.
But its sort of side-stepping the question. Is the problem the value
that is being given to that particular type of socialization? Or is
there really something missing from the homeschooler's socialization?
verbal teasing/insulting way of relating to each other, among most
teenagers, that seemed to always leave my kids feeling just bewildered
and a bit hurt, but not really "getting" what was happening and feeling
oddly a bit left out. Again - can't generalize to all unschoolers, but
I've seen that with some others, too."
I was schooled, but I mostly felt the way that your teens felt, in that
not having had much television as a child, I was always missing the key
points of conversations, or not understanding the sexual inuendo, not
getting the jokes, didn't listen to popular music so had no idea what
was going on most of the time.
Can we explore this further? Do other's feel their unschooled teenagers
also experience this? Is it just dependent on personality type? Or
does it have something in particular to do with being unschooled/schooled?
I think this is sort of the fear that many non-homeschoolers, or
anti-homeschoolers, are voicing when they say that children not schooled
will not be 'socialized'. And the stock homeschool answer is to give
all the examples of opportunities to socialize with all different types
of people that exist for homeschoolers that schoolers generally miss.
But its sort of side-stepping the question. Is the problem the value
that is being given to that particular type of socialization? Or is
there really something missing from the homeschooler's socialization?
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was schooled, but I mostly felt the way that your teens felt, in
that
not having had much television as a child, I was always missing the key
points of conversations, or not understanding the sexual inuendo, not
getting the jokes, didn't listen to popular music so had no idea what
was going on most of the time. -=-
How do you feel about not having the cultural exposure to be in on
jokes and popular music?
I had a friend in college who grew up in the 1960's without hearing
any new music, only listening to Gilbert & Sullivan and other eighty-
year-old stuff, because his parents thought those were classic and
educational. He also knew nothing at all about the Bible or any Bible
stories, and as a literature major he was extremely inconvenienced by
that.
I'm repeating that paragraph because now I'm going further into it:
-=-I was schooled, but I mostly felt the way that your teens felt, in
that
not having had much television as a child, I was always missing the key
points of conversations, or not understanding the sexual inuendo, not
getting the jokes, didn't listen to popular music so had no idea what
was going on most of the time.
-=-Can we explore this further? Do other's feel their unschooled
teenagers
also experience this?-=-
My kids only miss the traditional schoolyard taunts, as to their
understanding. Because my kids know current music (And '60's, AND a
lot of Gilbert & Sullivan <g>), they aren't baffled by conversation.
They don't have stories about lockers or school counsellors or PE
classes, but they're natives of the culture around them.
-=-I think this is sort of the fear that many non-homeschoolers, or
anti-homeschoolers, are voicing when they say that children not schooled
will not be 'socialized'. And the stock homeschool answer is to give
all the examples of opportunities to socialize with all different types
of people that exist for homeschoolers that schoolers generally miss.
But its sort of side-stepping the question. Is the problem the value
that is being given to that particular type of socialization? Or is
there really something missing from the homeschooler's socialization? -
=-
There is no monolithic "the homeschooler" about whom we can make these
statements.
Some homeschoolers are kept away from TV, computers, modern culture,
science books and mainstream history so that their parents can
fabricate a cushion of reconstructed history around them, and help
prepare them to take over America when they're grown. That doesn't
apply to anyone outside the U.S., and doesn't apply to all
homeschoolers. But they do exist, and their "socialization" is
limited to church, if the parents haven't already broken with the
church for being too liberal.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that
not having had much television as a child, I was always missing the key
points of conversations, or not understanding the sexual inuendo, not
getting the jokes, didn't listen to popular music so had no idea what
was going on most of the time. -=-
How do you feel about not having the cultural exposure to be in on
jokes and popular music?
I had a friend in college who grew up in the 1960's without hearing
any new music, only listening to Gilbert & Sullivan and other eighty-
year-old stuff, because his parents thought those were classic and
educational. He also knew nothing at all about the Bible or any Bible
stories, and as a literature major he was extremely inconvenienced by
that.
I'm repeating that paragraph because now I'm going further into it:
-=-I was schooled, but I mostly felt the way that your teens felt, in
that
not having had much television as a child, I was always missing the key
points of conversations, or not understanding the sexual inuendo, not
getting the jokes, didn't listen to popular music so had no idea what
was going on most of the time.
-=-Can we explore this further? Do other's feel their unschooled
teenagers
also experience this?-=-
My kids only miss the traditional schoolyard taunts, as to their
understanding. Because my kids know current music (And '60's, AND a
lot of Gilbert & Sullivan <g>), they aren't baffled by conversation.
They don't have stories about lockers or school counsellors or PE
classes, but they're natives of the culture around them.
-=-I think this is sort of the fear that many non-homeschoolers, or
anti-homeschoolers, are voicing when they say that children not schooled
will not be 'socialized'. And the stock homeschool answer is to give
all the examples of opportunities to socialize with all different types
of people that exist for homeschoolers that schoolers generally miss.
But its sort of side-stepping the question. Is the problem the value
that is being given to that particular type of socialization? Or is
there really something missing from the homeschooler's socialization? -
=-
There is no monolithic "the homeschooler" about whom we can make these
statements.
Some homeschoolers are kept away from TV, computers, modern culture,
science books and mainstream history so that their parents can
fabricate a cushion of reconstructed history around them, and help
prepare them to take over America when they're grown. That doesn't
apply to anyone outside the U.S., and doesn't apply to all
homeschoolers. But they do exist, and their "socialization" is
limited to church, if the parents haven't already broken with the
church for being too liberal.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
*********
"There is a petty jabbing
verbal teasing/insulting way of relating to each other, among most
teenagers, that seemed to always leave my kids feeling just bewildered
and a bit hurt, but not really "getting" what was happening and feeling
oddly a bit left out. Again - can't generalize to all unschoolers, but
I've seen that with some others, too."
*****************
I was schooled, but I mostly felt the way that your teens felt, in that
Can we explore this further? Do other's feel their unschooled teenagers
also experience this? Is it just dependent on personality type? Or
does it have something in particular to do with being unschooled/schooled?
I think this is sort of the fear that many non-homeschoolers, or
anti-homeschoolers, are voicing when they say that children not schooled
will not be 'socialized'. And the stock homeschool answer is to give
all the examples of opportunities to socialize with all different types
of people that exist for homeschoolers that schoolers generally miss.
But its sort of side-stepping the question. Is the problem the value
that is being given to that particular type of socialization? Or is
there really something missing from the homeschooler's socialization?
*****************
i don't read the above as being an indigtment of unschoolers/home schoolers socialization or lack thereof. i read it as being a lack of indoctrination into the cruelty aspects of popular/schooled culture, and that "ribbing" feeling foreign is a GOOD thing. my daughter was schooled until age 13, and now, at nearly 15 she is still blown away by the kindness that is inherent in unschooling groups of teens. she is in HEAVEN with that milieu. she was always very sensitive socially and deeply hurt by what others may have perceived to be very minor "normal" kid culture type interactions. and she was in school!
i was also schooled, but was raised without T.V. and with hippy alternative parents who didn't know the first thing about popular culture, music, etc.
i got along ok in schooler, without that knowledge, until i was 9 and i moved to the city from a small country town, and all of a sudden i knew NOTHING. all the kids ever talked about was movies and t.v. shows and music and stuff that i was clueless about. so - i was schooled but "unsocialized" in those things.
if a child is unschooling, they have less of a need to be fluent in the cultural media "language" because there is a variety of other fellow unschoolers, some of whom also have no interest in that and many/most of whom are accepting of each other even if they differ in cultural fluency. that said, i think the "fluency" and familiarity with cultural/popular media and language is a natural result from the freedom and access around media for most unschoolers, to what ever extent they are interested in such fluency, and those who aren't probably wouldn't be if they were in school either, but they would just suffer from that lack more.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"There is a petty jabbing
verbal teasing/insulting way of relating to each other, among most
teenagers, that seemed to always leave my kids feeling just bewildered
and a bit hurt, but not really "getting" what was happening and feeling
oddly a bit left out. Again - can't generalize to all unschoolers, but
I've seen that with some others, too."
*****************
I was schooled, but I mostly felt the way that your teens felt, in that
Can we explore this further? Do other's feel their unschooled teenagers
also experience this? Is it just dependent on personality type? Or
does it have something in particular to do with being unschooled/schooled?
I think this is sort of the fear that many non-homeschoolers, or
anti-homeschoolers, are voicing when they say that children not schooled
will not be 'socialized'. And the stock homeschool answer is to give
all the examples of opportunities to socialize with all different types
of people that exist for homeschoolers that schoolers generally miss.
But its sort of side-stepping the question. Is the problem the value
that is being given to that particular type of socialization? Or is
there really something missing from the homeschooler's socialization?
*****************
i don't read the above as being an indigtment of unschoolers/home schoolers socialization or lack thereof. i read it as being a lack of indoctrination into the cruelty aspects of popular/schooled culture, and that "ribbing" feeling foreign is a GOOD thing. my daughter was schooled until age 13, and now, at nearly 15 she is still blown away by the kindness that is inherent in unschooling groups of teens. she is in HEAVEN with that milieu. she was always very sensitive socially and deeply hurt by what others may have perceived to be very minor "normal" kid culture type interactions. and she was in school!
i was also schooled, but was raised without T.V. and with hippy alternative parents who didn't know the first thing about popular culture, music, etc.
i got along ok in schooler, without that knowledge, until i was 9 and i moved to the city from a small country town, and all of a sudden i knew NOTHING. all the kids ever talked about was movies and t.v. shows and music and stuff that i was clueless about. so - i was schooled but "unsocialized" in those things.
if a child is unschooling, they have less of a need to be fluent in the cultural media "language" because there is a variety of other fellow unschoolers, some of whom also have no interest in that and many/most of whom are accepting of each other even if they differ in cultural fluency. that said, i think the "fluency" and familiarity with cultural/popular media and language is a natural result from the freedom and access around media for most unschoolers, to what ever extent they are interested in such fluency, and those who aren't probably wouldn't be if they were in school either, but they would just suffer from that lack more.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-if a child is unschooling, they have less of a need to be fluent in
the cultural media "language" because there is a variety of other
fellow unschoolers, some of whom also have no interest in that and
many/most of whom are accepting of each other even if they differ in
cultural fluency. that said, i think the "fluency" and familiarity
with cultural/popular media and language is a natural result from the
freedom and access around media for most unschoolers, to what ever
extent they are interested in such fluency, and those who aren't
probably wouldn't be if they were in school either, but they would
just suffer from that lack more. -=-
I agree with that, but if a child is unschooling and hanging around
with a small group of other friends, they WILL have common interests
and experiences, either of what they've played or built or who else
they've known and played with, to outings the families have been on,
and if when the kids are older they find other connections through
sports or dance or anime or WoW, they'll have those things in common.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the cultural media "language" because there is a variety of other
fellow unschoolers, some of whom also have no interest in that and
many/most of whom are accepting of each other even if they differ in
cultural fluency. that said, i think the "fluency" and familiarity
with cultural/popular media and language is a natural result from the
freedom and access around media for most unschoolers, to what ever
extent they are interested in such fluency, and those who aren't
probably wouldn't be if they were in school either, but they would
just suffer from that lack more. -=-
I agree with that, but if a child is unschooling and hanging around
with a small group of other friends, they WILL have common interests
and experiences, either of what they've played or built or who else
they've known and played with, to outings the families have been on,
and if when the kids are older they find other connections through
sports or dance or anime or WoW, they'll have those things in common.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
*How do you feel about not having the cultural exposure to be in on
jokes and popular music?*
Well, I felt left out. I never was so interested in those things, or at
least some of them. Ok. The television was my parents... there were
times where we didn't have cable, just antenna. And then there was when
my siblings got older and started to fight about who got to watch what,
and they TV was just taken away for periods of time. I remember
watching Murder She Wrote through the stair rails when my parents
thought I was asleep. That is not what I want to reproduce with my kids!
But music is different. I just wasn't interested in it. I loved what
my parents played... and they played what they loved. They weren't
attempting to limit us. I just never had any urge to seek out anything
different (different from Simon and Garfunkle, Peter Paul and Mary,
etc). So I guess that was my own doing.
I still don't understand a lot of the sexual jokes that go around... I
guess I'm just that way, even being married and having two kids. Just
personality. So, also not to do with schooling.
*My kids only miss the traditional schoolyard taunts, as to their
understanding. Because my kids know current music (And '60's, AND a
lot of Gilbert & Sullivan <g>), they aren't baffled by conversation.
They don't have stories about lockers or school counsellors or PE
classes, but they're natives of the culture around them.*
So, the stories about lockers, school, gym class... kids taunting, being
mean. Do they just not care about those things? Do they not encounter
those things, since they are mostly found in school-grounds? Do they
know how to deal with them?
But I guess it doesn't even matter, because there are schooled kids who
don't do anything about being taunted, and there are those that have
great come-backs. Maybe its more about personality than about school
or no school.
*There is no monolithic "the homeschooler" about whom we can make these
statements.
Some homeschoolers are kept away from TV, computers, modern culture,
science books and mainstream history so that their parents can
fabricate a cushion of reconstructed history around them, and help
prepare them to take over America when they're grown. That doesn't
apply to anyone outside the U.S., and doesn't apply to all
homeschoolers. But they do exist, and their "socialization" is
limited to church, if the parents haven't already broken with the
church for being too liberal.*
Ok, I should have described the homeschoolers I had in mind. I was
thinking of the average middle-of the road homeschoolers. I know
generalizations can't be made. I was thinking of anyone who is exposed
to all the same kinds of things learned in school (with or without
formal learning, curriculum, etc...), but not exposed to the
socialization particular to school.
jokes and popular music?*
Well, I felt left out. I never was so interested in those things, or at
least some of them. Ok. The television was my parents... there were
times where we didn't have cable, just antenna. And then there was when
my siblings got older and started to fight about who got to watch what,
and they TV was just taken away for periods of time. I remember
watching Murder She Wrote through the stair rails when my parents
thought I was asleep. That is not what I want to reproduce with my kids!
But music is different. I just wasn't interested in it. I loved what
my parents played... and they played what they loved. They weren't
attempting to limit us. I just never had any urge to seek out anything
different (different from Simon and Garfunkle, Peter Paul and Mary,
etc). So I guess that was my own doing.
I still don't understand a lot of the sexual jokes that go around... I
guess I'm just that way, even being married and having two kids. Just
personality. So, also not to do with schooling.
*My kids only miss the traditional schoolyard taunts, as to their
understanding. Because my kids know current music (And '60's, AND a
lot of Gilbert & Sullivan <g>), they aren't baffled by conversation.
They don't have stories about lockers or school counsellors or PE
classes, but they're natives of the culture around them.*
So, the stories about lockers, school, gym class... kids taunting, being
mean. Do they just not care about those things? Do they not encounter
those things, since they are mostly found in school-grounds? Do they
know how to deal with them?
But I guess it doesn't even matter, because there are schooled kids who
don't do anything about being taunted, and there are those that have
great come-backs. Maybe its more about personality than about school
or no school.
*There is no monolithic "the homeschooler" about whom we can make these
statements.
Some homeschoolers are kept away from TV, computers, modern culture,
science books and mainstream history so that their parents can
fabricate a cushion of reconstructed history around them, and help
prepare them to take over America when they're grown. That doesn't
apply to anyone outside the U.S., and doesn't apply to all
homeschoolers. But they do exist, and their "socialization" is
limited to church, if the parents haven't already broken with the
church for being too liberal.*
Ok, I should have described the homeschoolers I had in mind. I was
thinking of the average middle-of the road homeschoolers. I know
generalizations can't be made. I was thinking of anyone who is exposed
to all the same kinds of things learned in school (with or without
formal learning, curriculum, etc...), but not exposed to the
socialization particular to school.
Sandra Dodd
-=-So, the stories about lockers, school, gym class... kids taunting,
being
mean. Do they just not care about those things? Do they not encounter
those things, since they are mostly found in school-grounds? Do they
know how to deal with them? -=-
When they were kids they would look at me and shrug, about the taunts,
and I would sometimes (especially if it was at our house) tell the kid
that I know kids at school say things like that, but they weren't at
school, and my kids weren't school kids and for them to be nicer.
Calmly. Matter of factly. Our back yard was the place to be for
seven or so families of kids when my kids were little (just neighbors,
I mean, in addition to the La Leche League babysitting co-op friends),
so kids WOULD be nice to continue to get to come over.
As to school and lockers and teachers, Kirby had a karate teacher,
Marty had a skating teacher and Holly had a dance teacher, so they had
something to add, a little bit, but they mostly said "What do you
mean?" or "I didn't go to school," and that was that.
-=I was thinking of anyone who is exposed
to all the same kinds of things learned in school (with or without
formal learning, curriculum, etc...), but not exposed to the
socialization particular to school. -=-
Me too. That would be my kids.
But when people outside of homeschooling talk about that, they're
usually thinking of the isolated fundamentalist unschoolers I was
talking about, whose parents are keeping them home because they want
them to know less.
I kept my kids home so they could know lots and lots MORE.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
being
mean. Do they just not care about those things? Do they not encounter
those things, since they are mostly found in school-grounds? Do they
know how to deal with them? -=-
When they were kids they would look at me and shrug, about the taunts,
and I would sometimes (especially if it was at our house) tell the kid
that I know kids at school say things like that, but they weren't at
school, and my kids weren't school kids and for them to be nicer.
Calmly. Matter of factly. Our back yard was the place to be for
seven or so families of kids when my kids were little (just neighbors,
I mean, in addition to the La Leche League babysitting co-op friends),
so kids WOULD be nice to continue to get to come over.
As to school and lockers and teachers, Kirby had a karate teacher,
Marty had a skating teacher and Holly had a dance teacher, so they had
something to add, a little bit, but they mostly said "What do you
mean?" or "I didn't go to school," and that was that.
-=I was thinking of anyone who is exposed
to all the same kinds of things learned in school (with or without
formal learning, curriculum, etc...), but not exposed to the
socialization particular to school. -=-
Me too. That would be my kids.
But when people outside of homeschooling talk about that, they're
usually thinking of the isolated fundamentalist unschoolers I was
talking about, whose parents are keeping them home because they want
them to know less.
I kept my kids home so they could know lots and lots MORE.
Sandra
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Jenny Cyphers
***I think this is sort of the fear that many non-homeschoolers, or
anti-homeschoolers, are voicing when they say that children not schooled
will not be 'socialized' .***
It's a fair statement. Unschooled kids and homeschooled kids in general won't be socialized in the same way that schooled kids are.
There is a local homeschool dad that I used to have a quote from, on a long ago computer that was long ago put out of commission, but it went something like, and I'm only paraphrasing what I remember... "If I wanted my kids socialized like what happens in schools, I'd pee on his shoes in the bathroom, steal his lunch money, tease him, bully him, and send him away crying." His child had experienced all of those socialization things in school and it was the reason they had pulled him out of school.
I'm GLAD my kids recognize the cruelty of other kids and don't feel they must tolerate it. I'm GLAD they know it's a choice to put up with the nonsense that "schooled" kids spew out. There is a lot of head games and manipulation that happens in school social circles. It's very unnatural and definitely a direct outcome of being forced into unnatural social situations that schools produce.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anti-homeschoolers, are voicing when they say that children not schooled
will not be 'socialized' .***
It's a fair statement. Unschooled kids and homeschooled kids in general won't be socialized in the same way that schooled kids are.
There is a local homeschool dad that I used to have a quote from, on a long ago computer that was long ago put out of commission, but it went something like, and I'm only paraphrasing what I remember... "If I wanted my kids socialized like what happens in schools, I'd pee on his shoes in the bathroom, steal his lunch money, tease him, bully him, and send him away crying." His child had experienced all of those socialization things in school and it was the reason they had pulled him out of school.
I'm GLAD my kids recognize the cruelty of other kids and don't feel they must tolerate it. I'm GLAD they know it's a choice to put up with the nonsense that "schooled" kids spew out. There is a lot of head games and manipulation that happens in school social circles. It's very unnatural and definitely a direct outcome of being forced into unnatural social situations that schools produce.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm GLAD my kids recognize the cruelty of other kids and don't feel
they must tolerate it. I'm GLAD they know it's a choice to put up with
the nonsense that "schooled" kids spew out. There is a lot of head
games and manipulation that happens in school social circles. It's
very unnatural and definitely a direct outcome of being forced into
unnatural social situations that schools produce.
-=-
Sometimes the best justification given for all of that is that when
school kids grow up they'll be able to deal with bosses and co-workers
they don't like.
Huh.
My kids have thusfar found ways to avoid people they don't like, and
when they do take a job, to make themselves so useful and likable that
it's not torture. When they're done, they quit. Pretty much, they
have quit with bosses asking them please not to quit. Sometimes they
stayed a while longer. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they must tolerate it. I'm GLAD they know it's a choice to put up with
the nonsense that "schooled" kids spew out. There is a lot of head
games and manipulation that happens in school social circles. It's
very unnatural and definitely a direct outcome of being forced into
unnatural social situations that schools produce.
-=-
Sometimes the best justification given for all of that is that when
school kids grow up they'll be able to deal with bosses and co-workers
they don't like.
Huh.
My kids have thusfar found ways to avoid people they don't like, and
when they do take a job, to make themselves so useful and likable that
it's not torture. When they're done, they quit. Pretty much, they
have quit with bosses asking them please not to quit. Sometimes they
stayed a while longer. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katy Jennings
<<<<Sometimes the best justification given for all of that is that when
school kids grow up they'll be able to deal with bosses and co-workers
they don't like.
Huh>>>>
I have been told that many times. People worried about how Richard would learn to deal with people that he had problems with.
I went to preschool, elementary school, a 2 year jr. high school, a 2 year mid-high school, 2 year high school, and college, and I STILL have a hard time with mean two-faced bosses, co-workers, others. All that school didn't help me any. I just don't deal with it well, I don't understand it. I will think of some smart thing that I could have said during a discussion/confrontation hours or days later.
Richard, who has never been to school, deals with it much better than I. He hasn't endured the school-yard taunts, but most of his friends are school kids, all of his in town friends are. He goes to TaeKwonDo, he plays on Xbox live, he interacts with school kids almost every day. He just has more interpersonal intellegence than I do I guess. He doesn't get his feelings hurt easily and he doesn't take hours to think of something to say. School didn't help him with that.
Katy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
school kids grow up they'll be able to deal with bosses and co-workers
they don't like.
Huh>>>>
I have been told that many times. People worried about how Richard would learn to deal with people that he had problems with.
I went to preschool, elementary school, a 2 year jr. high school, a 2 year mid-high school, 2 year high school, and college, and I STILL have a hard time with mean two-faced bosses, co-workers, others. All that school didn't help me any. I just don't deal with it well, I don't understand it. I will think of some smart thing that I could have said during a discussion/confrontation hours or days later.
Richard, who has never been to school, deals with it much better than I. He hasn't endured the school-yard taunts, but most of his friends are school kids, all of his in town friends are. He goes to TaeKwonDo, he plays on Xbox live, he interacts with school kids almost every day. He just has more interpersonal intellegence than I do I guess. He doesn't get his feelings hurt easily and he doesn't take hours to think of something to say. School didn't help him with that.
Katy
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Joanna
> I was schooled, but I mostly felt the way that your teens felt, in thatNope--not since we stopped having the t.v. restricted. :-) Before that, when the kids were younger, my son was in some theater classes. A majority of the warm-up ice breaker games they played were based on popular t.v. characters. When my son would come home complaining about that to me, my first strategy was to talk with the teachers to see if they could play games NOT based around pop culture like that. Although they sympathized, nothing really changed.
> not having had much television as a child, I was always missing the key
> points of conversations, or not understanding the sexual inuendo, not
> getting the jokes, didn't listen to popular music so had no idea what
> was going on most of the time.
>
> Can we explore this further? Do other's feel their unschooled teenagers
> also experience this?
The same thing came up around the same time, when he was looking for more friends, and all the boys we met were into video games. I thought it was enough that he could play when he was with them. But his skills were so lacking that he felt bad. Not long after these experiences, we dropped all the limits around media, because I could see that he was actually socially handicapped. It stopped making sense to me that I was raising him to not be able to function in his world.
Since then he has "caught up" with his peers. I'd say he gets all the references that his schooled counterparts do, but without the meanness.
I think media is where most of the common culture comes from--not school.
The other thing is that I remember moving the same year that Mork and Mindy came out. We moved out to a house that didn't have t.v. for about 6 months. EVERYONE at my new school was watching that show (or so it seemed) but me, and I felt really left out.
Joanna