iCarly ? (was Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: TV issue: Consumer kids and Corporation documentaries)
Guillaume JAY
Hi Mandy,
I'm always looking for cool stuff for my daughter to watch (it's far more easier for me to find things for my boy : just find something I like/would have liked as a boy :))
But I love that your kids are now doing webcast, and I like the idea of suggesting to her something a bit more "realistic"...
So, .. I'm not sure what is my question in fact, since you already told your daughter loves it. I'm just going to try it :)
Guillaume
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I'm always looking for cool stuff for my daughter to watch (it's far more easier for me to find things for my boy : just find something I like/would have liked as a boy :))
> In addition, my daughter who has just turned four introduced me to a show onMy daughter will be five in May, but looking at the iCarly wikipedia article, I would have thought it was for preteen. I don't mean that it seems shocking or too mature, just that I don't think my (Strawberry Shortcake / Dora / Disney Princesses)- addicted girl would like this kind of show.
> Nickeoldeon called "iCarly". I fell in love with it. Now my kids are
But I love that your kids are now doing webcast, and I like the idea of suggesting to her something a bit more "realistic"...
So, .. I'm not sure what is my question in fact, since you already told your daughter loves it. I'm just going to try it :)
Guillaume
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gwen
We are big iCarly fans here. Megan is 8 and Zoe is 3.
There are several shows on right now in this genre, but iCarly is the only one the kids like.
I never would have guessed Megan would like this show (she prefers animals or better yet - animals that talk) or that Zoe would like it too!
I like it too. Really. It is goofy in ways that make me giggle.
The iCarly website has some fun games that Zoe likes to play (with help).
Gwen
There are several shows on right now in this genre, but iCarly is the only one the kids like.
I never would have guessed Megan would like this show (she prefers animals or better yet - animals that talk) or that Zoe would like it too!
I like it too. Really. It is goofy in ways that make me giggle.
The iCarly website has some fun games that Zoe likes to play (with help).
Gwen
On Jan 25, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Guillaume JAY <gjay@...> wrote:
My daughter will be five in May, but looking at the iCarly wikipedia article, I would have thought it was for preteen. I don't mean that it seems shocking or too mature, just that I don't think my (Strawberry Shortcake / Dora / Disney Princesses)- addicted girl would like this kind of show.
But I love that your kids are now doing webcast, and I like the idea of suggesting to her something a bit more "realistic"...
So, .. I'm not sure what is my question in fact, since you already told your daughter loves it. I'm just going to try it :)
Guillaume
Jenny Cyphers
***My daughter will be five in May, but looking at the iCarly wikipedia article, I would have thought it was for preteen. I don't mean that it seems shocking or too mature, just that I don't think my (Strawberry Shortcake / Dora / Disney Princesses)- addicted girl would like this kind of show. ***
It will help enormously if you drop the idea of your child being addicted to something she loves. I love sushi, but I'm not addicted to it. I love coffee and I'm not addicted to that either, although I wouldn't relish the headache I'd get if I decided to stop drinking it!
If your daughter loves Strawberry Shortcake, Dora, and Disney Princess things, find more of those things that she loves and explore and add to it in meaningful ways.
***But I love that your kids are now doing webcast, and I like the idea of suggesting to her something a bit more "realistic". ..
So, .. I'm not sure what is my question in fact, since you already told your daughter loves it. I'm just going to try it :)***
But why, if you don't know that your daughter will like it. It's on tv pretty regularly, if she comes across it and loves it then go for it. If it's not even on her radar and so very different from what she DOES love, why put it out there? I wouldn't say iCarly is very realistic though. It's a cute show that appeals to both of my girls, which is nice because very little appeals to both of them at their age differences.
If your daughter really likes shows with strong female characters and you'd like to expand THAT idea, I'd suggest Hayao Miyazaki movies. The newest one is Ponyo, but he has so many really wonderful ones, like Kiki's Delivery Service and Totoro.
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It will help enormously if you drop the idea of your child being addicted to something she loves. I love sushi, but I'm not addicted to it. I love coffee and I'm not addicted to that either, although I wouldn't relish the headache I'd get if I decided to stop drinking it!
If your daughter loves Strawberry Shortcake, Dora, and Disney Princess things, find more of those things that she loves and explore and add to it in meaningful ways.
***But I love that your kids are now doing webcast, and I like the idea of suggesting to her something a bit more "realistic". ..
So, .. I'm not sure what is my question in fact, since you already told your daughter loves it. I'm just going to try it :)***
But why, if you don't know that your daughter will like it. It's on tv pretty regularly, if she comes across it and loves it then go for it. If it's not even on her radar and so very different from what she DOES love, why put it out there? I wouldn't say iCarly is very realistic though. It's a cute show that appeals to both of my girls, which is nice because very little appeals to both of them at their age differences.
If your daughter really likes shows with strong female characters and you'd like to expand THAT idea, I'd suggest Hayao Miyazaki movies. The newest one is Ponyo, but he has so many really wonderful ones, like Kiki's Delivery Service and Totoro.
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Mandy Ray-Jones
I suppose "iCarly" is marketed to preteens but I happen to love it and I'm
32. My daughter is really into hitting, screaming, eating, and performing.
So the Sam character on "iCarly" really appeals to her. I was blown away
the first time I watched the show and saw how much that character is like my
daughter. She also likes "Full House", "Family Ties", "Friends", and the
sitcoms on Disney like "Wizards" but "iCarly" is clearly her favorite. I
have always liked sitcoms very much. And I am not sure it's very realistic
either. If you mean "live action" then it is that. You could just sit down
and watch it and invite her to see it with you. Maybe she'll like it.
Maybe she won't.
32. My daughter is really into hitting, screaming, eating, and performing.
So the Sam character on "iCarly" really appeals to her. I was blown away
the first time I watched the show and saw how much that character is like my
daughter. She also likes "Full House", "Family Ties", "Friends", and the
sitcoms on Disney like "Wizards" but "iCarly" is clearly her favorite. I
have always liked sitcoms very much. And I am not sure it's very realistic
either. If you mean "live action" then it is that. You could just sit down
and watch it and invite her to see it with you. Maybe she'll like it.
Maybe she won't.
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
>
> ***My daughter will be five in May, but looking at the iCarly wikipedia
> article, I would have thought it was for preteen. I don't mean that it seems
> shocking or too mature, just that I don't think my (Strawberry Shortcake /
> Dora / Disney Princesses)- addicted girl would like this kind of show. ***
>
> It will help enormously if you drop the idea of your child being addicted
> to something she loves. I love sushi, but I'm not addicted to it. I love
> coffee and I'm not addicted to that either, although I wouldn't relish the
> headache I'd get if I decided to stop drinking it!
>
> If your daughter loves Strawberry Shortcake, Dora, and Disney Princess
> things, find more of those things that she loves and explore and add to it
> in meaningful ways.
>
> ***But I love that your kids are now doing webcast, and I like the idea of
> suggesting to her something a bit more "realistic". ..
>
> So, .. I'm not sure what is my question in fact, since you already told
> your daughter loves it. I'm just going to try it :)***
>
> But why, if you don't know that your daughter will like it. It's on tv
> pretty regularly, if she comes across it and loves it then go for it. If
> it's not even on her radar and so very different from what she DOES love,
> why put it out there? I wouldn't say iCarly is very realistic though. It's a
> cute show that appeals to both of my girls, which is nice because very
> little appeals to both of them at their age differences.
>
> If your daughter really likes shows with strong female characters and you'd
> like to expand THAT idea, I'd suggest Hayao Miyazaki movies. The newest one
> is Ponyo, but he has so many really wonderful ones, like Kiki's Delivery
> Service and Totoro.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Mandy Ray-Jones
Artsy Mamas Executive Director and Founder
http://artsymamas.org/
Child of God, Supermom, Wife, Natural Learning Facilitator, Aspiring Natural
Nutritionist, Truth Seeker, Lover of Life, Friend, and Geeky Blogger
http://www.bonafidemama.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Guillaume JAY
Jenny,
2) I'm not sure it's on our tv
3) yes, she's not watching live action (what I meant by "realistic" :) ) right now . But that's because of 1 (above), not because she does not like "live action" (in fact, I don't know if she likes it or not, I've never shown her)
In fact, I don't understand your point. I heard about a show an girl the same age just likes, and I should not show it to her because she did not find it by herself ?
As for Miyazaki, it's on my list. We already watched The cat returns (not by Miyazaki), and she loved it (but it's with cats, which she just loves). It's just a matter of opportunity, but since my wife hates anime (without really knowing what is it), it must come from me (also, I'd like to discover it with her - never watched any myself).
Guillaume
> It will help enormously if you drop the idea of your child being addicted to something she loves. I love sushi, but I'm not addicted to it. I love coffee and I'm not addicted to that either, although I wouldn't relish the headache I'd get if I decided to stop drinking it!Maybe it's because English is not my first language, but in my sentence and context, addicted was not a "bad" word, for me.
> If your daughter loves Strawberry Shortcake, Dora, and Disney Princess things, find more of those things that she loves and explore and add to it in meaningful ways.That's what I'm already doing. But I'm not very good at finding stuff for her. As for "meaningful ways", I don't know what you mean. Presently, my way is "I think she's going to like that, so just show her"...
> But why, if you don't know that your daughter will like it.It's on tv pretty regularly, if she comes across it and loves it then go for it. If it's not even on her radar and so very different from what she DOES love, why put it out there?1) since she's not remote-proficient, she's fairly limited in what she can discover by herself.
2) I'm not sure it's on our tv
3) yes, she's not watching live action (what I meant by "realistic" :) ) right now . But that's because of 1 (above), not because she does not like "live action" (in fact, I don't know if she likes it or not, I've never shown her)
In fact, I don't understand your point. I heard about a show an girl the same age just likes, and I should not show it to her because she did not find it by herself ?
> If your daughter really likes shows with strong female characters and you'd like to expand THAT idea, I'd suggest Hayao Miyazaki movies. The newest one is Ponyo, but he has so many really wonderful ones, like Kiki's Delivery Service and Totoro.I'm not sure what she likes in what she's watching...
As for Miyazaki, it's on my list. We already watched The cat returns (not by Miyazaki), and she loved it (but it's with cats, which she just loves). It's just a matter of opportunity, but since my wife hates anime (without really knowing what is it), it must come from me (also, I'd like to discover it with her - never watched any myself).
Guillaume
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Robyn Coburn
"Places in the Heart" is a wonderful bookend to "The Cat Returns" - there
are cats in that one too. That and Kiki are probably the most unschooly.
(IMO) There's a dog in "Howl's Moving Castle".
I'm so sorry that your wife "hates Anime". It's a bit like "hating books".
There are all kinds of different stories and styles of anime. Jayn used to
adore Sailor Moon. There are talking cats in SM.
However, anime is so very likely to have stories and character that will
fascinate a child, that the hate and distrust of it emanating from a loved
adult could become a problem.
We generally advise people to watch with their kids, and try to find what it
is that their kids like about the tv or game or activity as a path to
finding something to like about it themselves. However if a parent is so
full of negativity, as in "hate", then I think it's worth that parent
staying right away until they can find a way to be at least tolerant, rather
than destroy their child's enjoyment and, more importantly, their child's
trust in the parent's judgement. Meanwhile it's great that there is one
parent who does share the enjoyment.
When Jayn is watching something I don't enjoy - usually because I have seen
it 25 times already - I find something else to do, sometimes with my
earplugs in. She will call me to watch those little special moments of humor
that have become some of our family in jokes. Dh has different moments,
different interests. I don't think we have the expectation that he will
watch all the same things, do all the same games, with Jayn as I do. That's
one reason why it's great to have two parents around - or more than one
trusted adult around.
I have never been in a situation where I have "hated" something Jayn loves.
Sighed with boredom, not liked much, a minor amount of discomfort - but
never the kind of emotional investment of "hate". Jayn has never challenged
me with a passion for something that opposes my core belief system though. I
hope if she ever does I will find my way to applying unschooling principles
to the situation.
Robyn L. Coburn
(using someone else's internet temporarily)
are cats in that one too. That and Kiki are probably the most unschooly.
(IMO) There's a dog in "Howl's Moving Castle".
I'm so sorry that your wife "hates Anime". It's a bit like "hating books".
There are all kinds of different stories and styles of anime. Jayn used to
adore Sailor Moon. There are talking cats in SM.
However, anime is so very likely to have stories and character that will
fascinate a child, that the hate and distrust of it emanating from a loved
adult could become a problem.
We generally advise people to watch with their kids, and try to find what it
is that their kids like about the tv or game or activity as a path to
finding something to like about it themselves. However if a parent is so
full of negativity, as in "hate", then I think it's worth that parent
staying right away until they can find a way to be at least tolerant, rather
than destroy their child's enjoyment and, more importantly, their child's
trust in the parent's judgement. Meanwhile it's great that there is one
parent who does share the enjoyment.
When Jayn is watching something I don't enjoy - usually because I have seen
it 25 times already - I find something else to do, sometimes with my
earplugs in. She will call me to watch those little special moments of humor
that have become some of our family in jokes. Dh has different moments,
different interests. I don't think we have the expectation that he will
watch all the same things, do all the same games, with Jayn as I do. That's
one reason why it's great to have two parents around - or more than one
trusted adult around.
I have never been in a situation where I have "hated" something Jayn loves.
Sighed with boredom, not liked much, a minor amount of discomfort - but
never the kind of emotional investment of "hate". Jayn has never challenged
me with a passion for something that opposes my core belief system though. I
hope if she ever does I will find my way to applying unschooling principles
to the situation.
Robyn L. Coburn
(using someone else's internet temporarily)
> As for Miyazaki, it's on my list. We already watched The cat returns[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> (not by Miyazaki), and she loved it (but it's with cats, which she just
> loves). It's just a matter of opportunity, but since my wife hates anime
> (without really knowing what is it), it must come from me (also, I'd like to
> discover it with her - never watched any myself).
>
> Guillaume
> >
>
Claire
My daughter Ashlin (turning 5 in a few weeks) currently enjoys the following shows:
nature documentaries
dinosaur 'documentaries' (eg. Walking with Dinosaurs)
Lord of the Rings (we skip through the scary parts)
Howl's Moving Castle (a particular family favourite)
Kung Fu Panda
Peter Pan
Charlie and Lola (not very unschooly I'm afraid)
Captain Mack
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
Little Princess (narrated by Julian Clary)
I have learned an enormous amount watching these shows with her, and have seen her learning expand exponentially. I really like seeing how she incorporates various elements of things she has seen on tv into her own play - we have many games involving Mummy and Daddy Predator going out to hunt for food for their babies, or hobbits trekking through the forest, etc.
Claire
nature documentaries
dinosaur 'documentaries' (eg. Walking with Dinosaurs)
Lord of the Rings (we skip through the scary parts)
Howl's Moving Castle (a particular family favourite)
Kung Fu Panda
Peter Pan
Charlie and Lola (not very unschooly I'm afraid)
Captain Mack
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
Little Princess (narrated by Julian Clary)
I have learned an enormous amount watching these shows with her, and have seen her learning expand exponentially. I really like seeing how she incorporates various elements of things she has seen on tv into her own play - we have many games involving Mummy and Daddy Predator going out to hunt for food for their babies, or hobbits trekking through the forest, etc.
Claire
Jenny Cyphers
***That's what I'm already doing. But I'm not very good at finding stuff for her. As for "meaningful ways", I don't know what you mean. Presently, my way is "I think she's going to like that, so just show her"...
In fact, I don't understand your point. I heard about a show an girl the same age just likes, and I should not show it to her because she did not find it by herself ? ***
My point is that iCarly is very different from her already current interests. Not that bringing new and interesting things to a kid is a bad idea, but for a little girl who's interests seem to be more along the lines of cute and girly, I'd go that direction to add new and interesting things.
That is what I meant by meaningful and not so hugely different from what she DOES like. That's what I've done with my kids, add to what they like already and keep adding and keep adding, and soon they add things themselves and it just naturally flows from one thing to the next thing. It really depends on WHY a child likes a certain thing. If a parent knows why, then they can add to it better, and the adding to need not be other tv shows, it could be games or costumes or action figures, or big screen movies.
If one of my kids was really into romantic comedy, I'd look for more of that, not a sci-fi, that I'd heard was good and may just be really good, but not a romantic comedy by any means. iCarly is a really cute show, though, and your daughter may love it!
***As for Miyazaki, it's on my list. We already watched The cat returns (not by Miyazaki), and she loved it (but it's with cats, which she just loves). It's just a matter of opportunity, but since my wife hates anime (without really knowing what is it), it must come from me (also, I'd like to discover it with her - never watched any myself). ***
We've encountered anime ignorance many times over the years... the one that blew me away the most was a middle school teacher that had no idea what it was. Anime is just a different kind of animation. It's not Warner Brothers. It would be worth finding out what your wife hates about it. It would be a bit like dismissing all mystery novels because you didn't like sherlock holmes. Anime has been so huge in our lives in really wonderful ways. What I find really enjoyable about much of anime, whether or not the story or actual animation is thrilling for me, the plot lines and behind the scenes part of it is soooo detailed and that would be true for all anime. The characters are created with history already existing and so, it can play a part in the story. It's fascinating from a social/cultural context.
We've seen almost all of the the Studio Ghibli movies whether they were made my Miyazaki or not, even Grave of the Fireflies, which I wouldn't recommend at all to young kids. I've watched hundreds of hours of Pokemon, Inuyasha, and Naruto, as well as Bleach, Death Note, and Full Metal Alchemist, and plenty of other ones, the bloodier the better in my older daughter's view. When it all started with Pokemon, I had no idea that I'd log that many hours into anime. I didn't even know much about it at all, but I've come to appreciate it deeply, the music, the art, the stories, it has opened up so many worlds and connections.
Hating anything that your children like, closes doors to learning and growing It's really that simple. It doesn't mean you have to love everything they love, it just means you need to be open to the possibility of loving it!
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In fact, I don't understand your point. I heard about a show an girl the same age just likes, and I should not show it to her because she did not find it by herself ? ***
My point is that iCarly is very different from her already current interests. Not that bringing new and interesting things to a kid is a bad idea, but for a little girl who's interests seem to be more along the lines of cute and girly, I'd go that direction to add new and interesting things.
That is what I meant by meaningful and not so hugely different from what she DOES like. That's what I've done with my kids, add to what they like already and keep adding and keep adding, and soon they add things themselves and it just naturally flows from one thing to the next thing. It really depends on WHY a child likes a certain thing. If a parent knows why, then they can add to it better, and the adding to need not be other tv shows, it could be games or costumes or action figures, or big screen movies.
If one of my kids was really into romantic comedy, I'd look for more of that, not a sci-fi, that I'd heard was good and may just be really good, but not a romantic comedy by any means. iCarly is a really cute show, though, and your daughter may love it!
***As for Miyazaki, it's on my list. We already watched The cat returns (not by Miyazaki), and she loved it (but it's with cats, which she just loves). It's just a matter of opportunity, but since my wife hates anime (without really knowing what is it), it must come from me (also, I'd like to discover it with her - never watched any myself). ***
We've encountered anime ignorance many times over the years... the one that blew me away the most was a middle school teacher that had no idea what it was. Anime is just a different kind of animation. It's not Warner Brothers. It would be worth finding out what your wife hates about it. It would be a bit like dismissing all mystery novels because you didn't like sherlock holmes. Anime has been so huge in our lives in really wonderful ways. What I find really enjoyable about much of anime, whether or not the story or actual animation is thrilling for me, the plot lines and behind the scenes part of it is soooo detailed and that would be true for all anime. The characters are created with history already existing and so, it can play a part in the story. It's fascinating from a social/cultural context.
We've seen almost all of the the Studio Ghibli movies whether they were made my Miyazaki or not, even Grave of the Fireflies, which I wouldn't recommend at all to young kids. I've watched hundreds of hours of Pokemon, Inuyasha, and Naruto, as well as Bleach, Death Note, and Full Metal Alchemist, and plenty of other ones, the bloodier the better in my older daughter's view. When it all started with Pokemon, I had no idea that I'd log that many hours into anime. I didn't even know much about it at all, but I've come to appreciate it deeply, the music, the art, the stories, it has opened up so many worlds and connections.
Hating anything that your children like, closes doors to learning and growing It's really that simple. It doesn't mean you have to love everything they love, it just means you need to be open to the possibility of loving it!
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Mandy Ray-Jones
For what it's worth, my daughter (the 4 year old "iCarly" fan) also likes My
Little Pony, Littlest Pet Shop, Tinkerbell, Strawberry Shortcake... at
least she plays with the toys. She's not been exposed too much to those
things on television. I think showing her an episode of "iCarly" is so easy
and simple and not a big deal. If she likes it, great. If not, no harm
done. The iCarly website is a lot of fun too. You could let her check that
out with you and see if she might enjoy an episode: http://www.icarly.com/.
:)
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Little Pony, Littlest Pet Shop, Tinkerbell, Strawberry Shortcake... at
least she plays with the toys. She's not been exposed too much to those
things on television. I think showing her an episode of "iCarly" is so easy
and simple and not a big deal. If she likes it, great. If not, no harm
done. The iCarly website is a lot of fun too. You could let her check that
out with you and see if she might enjoy an episode: http://www.icarly.com/.
:)
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Guillaume JAY
Jenny,
I fail to see any problem in showing her something different that her usual fare. She'll decide if she likes it or not, and at worst she would have lost 10 minutes of her life.. > If one of my kids was really into romantic comedy, I'd look for more of that, not a sci-fi, that I'd heard was good and may just be really good, but not a romantic comedy by any means.
But how can you be sure that your (hypothetical romantic-lover) kid would not love too the sci-fi thing ?
(Of course, I'm talking about kids who are depending on their parents to find stuff)
Guillaume
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My point is that iCarly is very different from her already current interests. Not that bringing new and interesting things to a kid is a bad idea, but for a little girl who's interests seem to be more along the lines of cute and girly, I'd go that direction to add new and interesting things.I agree that she is totally on the cute/girly side. But, she's also a watching a lot of things with/chosen by her 1y older brother, and she also likes to watch Avatar or Futurama (but maybe that's because it's with daddy :) )
I fail to see any problem in showing her something different that her usual fare. She'll decide if she likes it or not, and at worst she would have lost 10 minutes of her life.. > If one of my kids was really into romantic comedy, I'd look for more of that, not a sci-fi, that I'd heard was good and may just be really good, but not a romantic comedy by any means.
But how can you be sure that your (hypothetical romantic-lover) kid would not love too the sci-fi thing ?
(Of course, I'm talking about kids who are depending on their parents to find stuff)
> We've encountered anime ignorance many times over the years... the one that blew me away the most was a middle school teacher that had no idea what it was. Anime is just a different kind ofI was also kind of an ignorant. Still am, in fact.
>animation. It's not Warner Brothers. It would be worth finding out what your wife hates about it. It would be a bit like dismissing all mystery novels because you didn't like sherlock holmes. AnimeShe told me it's the drawing style. (she has no problem with watching "western" animated movies with kids, on the contrary)
> We've seen almost all of the the Studio Ghibli movies whether they were made my Miyazaki or not, even Grave of the Fireflies, which I wouldn't recommend at all to young kids. I've watchedKnowing the basic plot of Grave, I don't even want to see for myself. Since I've got kids, I'm a lot more sensitive about suffering of real (and unreal) kids.
Guillaume
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Guillaume JAY
----- "Robyn Coburn"
"Places in the Heart" is a wonderful bookend to "The Cat Returns" - there
I'm thinking the next big movie we're going to see will be Totoro or Ponyo.
(Thanks Mandy for the iCarly website, but since we're french, I fear it will not be adapted. I would love to have bilingual kids, for this kind of things (and also for reasons which should surely be qualified as "bad" here)
Guillaume
"Places in the Heart" is a wonderful bookend to "The Cat Returns" - there
> are cats in that one too.It's "Whisper in the heart" :)
>That and Kiki are probably the most unschooly.We're cat people :)
> (IMO) There's a dog in "Howl's Moving Castle".
I'm thinking the next big movie we're going to see will be Totoro or Ponyo.
(Thanks Mandy for the iCarly website, but since we're french, I fear it will not be adapted. I would love to have bilingual kids, for this kind of things (and also for reasons which should surely be qualified as "bad" here)
Guillaume
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 28, 2010, at 5:24 AM, Guillaume JAY wrote:
to *check* for problems such as unconsciously steering a child toward
something a parent might find more acceptable.
After several decades living with the message that kids don't know
what they need and parents know what's best for them, that attitude
can creep into our choices without us realizing it. So it's a good
idea to examine what your motives are for showing her something
that's very different than what she's picking on her own.
Joyce
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> I fail to see any problem in showing her something different thatIt's not necessarily a problem. It's a pattern of thought to examine
> her usual fare.
to *check* for problems such as unconsciously steering a child toward
something a parent might find more acceptable.
After several decades living with the message that kids don't know
what they need and parents know what's best for them, that attitude
can creep into our choices without us realizing it. So it's a good
idea to examine what your motives are for showing her something
that's very different than what she's picking on her own.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
"Places in the Heart" is a wonderful bookend to "The Cat Returns" - there
Yikes. So it is. Sorry about that! It's one of our favorite movies though.
Robyn C.
(not sure if she is using her gmail email right - I may have sent private
replies by accident)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> are cats in that one too.It's "Whisper in the heart" :) >>>>>
Yikes. So it is. Sorry about that! It's one of our favorite movies though.
>I don't understand what you mean by "bad" or "here".
> (Thanks Mandy for the iCarly website, but since we're french, I fear it
> will not be adapted. I would love to have bilingual kids, for this kind of
> things (and also for reasons which should surely be qualified as "bad" here)
>
>
Robyn C.
(not sure if she is using her gmail email right - I may have sent private
replies by accident)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<< So it's a good
idea to examine what your motives are for showing her something
that's very different than what she's picking on her own.>>>>
I would add that it's important not become attached to the outcome - I mean
remain acceptant of the kid saying she's not interested right now, and don't
take it as a personal rejection.
When Jayn was very young we watched a LOT of "Max & Ruby", but now at 10 she
likes a lot of different shows, unpredicted by me, and our movie collection
is huge and varied. Some of the shows that she was not interested in
watching then are now favorites.
Robyn Coburn
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
idea to examine what your motives are for showing her something
that's very different than what she's picking on her own.>>>>
I would add that it's important not become attached to the outcome - I mean
remain acceptant of the kid saying she's not interested right now, and don't
take it as a personal rejection.
When Jayn was very young we watched a LOT of "Max & Ruby", but now at 10 she
likes a lot of different shows, unpredicted by me, and our movie collection
is huge and varied. Some of the shows that she was not interested in
watching then are now favorites.
Robyn Coburn
> MARKETPLACE--
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Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Guillaume JAY
Joyce,
(because she can't read, and she's not remote proficient, not because I hide the remote).
For me, it's just a matter of "This seems great, let's show her". I'm not going to force her to watch 21 episodes, not even 1 ...
Guillaume
> After several decades living with the message that kids don't knowThe problem is that there is a fallacy in your last sentence. As I already wrote, she's not picking things "on her own", she's picking things in the selection I make for her.
> what they need and parents know what's best for them, that attitude
> can creep into our choices without us realizing it. So it's a good
> idea to examine what your motives are for showing her something
> that's very different than what she's picking on her own.
(because she can't read, and she's not remote proficient, not because I hide the remote).
For me, it's just a matter of "This seems great, let's show her". I'm not going to force her to watch 21 episodes, not even 1 ...
Guillaume
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 28, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Guillaume JAY wrote:
works :-)
No one here can know what the nuances are in your or any poster's
home. So responses are addressed to the issue painted by the words in
a post. *Hopefully* it will answer the original poster's question --
*if* they painted an accurate enough picture -- but the intent is to
address anyone who might have a similar problem or issues typically
related to it.
One of the shortfalls of English is we don't have a separate "you"
that means "anyone out there reading." I switch between "they" (which
is grammatically wrong and awkward for an individual) and "parent"
and "you". None of them are great.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The problem is that there is a fallacy in your last sentence.And there's a misconception in your understanding of how the lists
works :-)
No one here can know what the nuances are in your or any poster's
home. So responses are addressed to the issue painted by the words in
a post. *Hopefully* it will answer the original poster's question --
*if* they painted an accurate enough picture -- but the intent is to
address anyone who might have a similar problem or issues typically
related to it.
One of the shortfalls of English is we don't have a separate "you"
that means "anyone out there reading." I switch between "they" (which
is grammatically wrong and awkward for an individual) and "parent"
and "you". None of them are great.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I fail to see any problem in showing her something different that her usual fare. She'll decide if she likes it or not, and at worst she would have lost 10 minutes of her life..***
***But how can you be sure that your (hypothetical romantic-lover) kid would not love too the sci-fi thing ? ***
I never said it was a problem. Without going back and rereading, I think I asked why you would do that. When I read what you wrote, and it could be misinterpreted because of french to english translation, it sounded like you were wanting to steer her away from something.
Introducing kids to new things is great. It's really good to know WHY your kids like certain things, so that you can add to it. If what your daughter likes about shows is the girl friendship aspect, iCarly might just work great. I can think of some little girls that I've known that were super into really cutesy girly things, that wouldn't have appreciated iCarly or various other shows similar because they really really liked the cutesy girly things better, and while they wouldn't have hated or completely dismissed the other shows, they just wouldn't have been into them at all.
Same with the hypothetical romance lover potentially liking sci-fi, that kid could find that she likes sci-fi. However, if I'm wanting to steer her away from romance movies to get her interested in sci-fi, that might not go over so well.
It's more about motive and intent. Since you had used the word "addicted", it seemed like perhaps you wanted to offer things that weren't so addicting. Again that could be a language usage difference here. Generally, addictions aren't considered healthy or good.
***She told me it's the drawing style. (she has no problem with watching "western" animated movies with kids, on the contrary)***
There are some good "western" animated movies and shows for sure. There are some anime things that I don't really care for. It really depends on the art, the story, and the music. I have a friend who's family loves anime and she can take it or leave it, but she does really really like a show called Hell Girl. She loves the art and story in that particular show. What has really appealed to me, as an artist, is the way backgrounds are put into anime, and the details in clothing and surroundings and the way the scenes mesh together. It is one reason Hayao Miyazaki stands out, his work is brilliant in that regard!
My oldest daughter, the anime lover, is really particular about anime art. She pays attention to how the facial features are done and how an artist has portrayed hair and clothing, and even more importantly how blood is portrayed, or not. There have been very few "western" animated things that have that level of detail that she loves. The Nightmare Before Christmas, is one. Shrek is another. When she was younger, her 2 favorites were the Lion King and Aladdin, both, really detailed and dramatic.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***But how can you be sure that your (hypothetical romantic-lover) kid would not love too the sci-fi thing ? ***
I never said it was a problem. Without going back and rereading, I think I asked why you would do that. When I read what you wrote, and it could be misinterpreted because of french to english translation, it sounded like you were wanting to steer her away from something.
Introducing kids to new things is great. It's really good to know WHY your kids like certain things, so that you can add to it. If what your daughter likes about shows is the girl friendship aspect, iCarly might just work great. I can think of some little girls that I've known that were super into really cutesy girly things, that wouldn't have appreciated iCarly or various other shows similar because they really really liked the cutesy girly things better, and while they wouldn't have hated or completely dismissed the other shows, they just wouldn't have been into them at all.
Same with the hypothetical romance lover potentially liking sci-fi, that kid could find that she likes sci-fi. However, if I'm wanting to steer her away from romance movies to get her interested in sci-fi, that might not go over so well.
It's more about motive and intent. Since you had used the word "addicted", it seemed like perhaps you wanted to offer things that weren't so addicting. Again that could be a language usage difference here. Generally, addictions aren't considered healthy or good.
***She told me it's the drawing style. (she has no problem with watching "western" animated movies with kids, on the contrary)***
There are some good "western" animated movies and shows for sure. There are some anime things that I don't really care for. It really depends on the art, the story, and the music. I have a friend who's family loves anime and she can take it or leave it, but she does really really like a show called Hell Girl. She loves the art and story in that particular show. What has really appealed to me, as an artist, is the way backgrounds are put into anime, and the details in clothing and surroundings and the way the scenes mesh together. It is one reason Hayao Miyazaki stands out, his work is brilliant in that regard!
My oldest daughter, the anime lover, is really particular about anime art. She pays attention to how the facial features are done and how an artist has portrayed hair and clothing, and even more importantly how blood is portrayed, or not. There have been very few "western" animated things that have that level of detail that she loves. The Nightmare Before Christmas, is one. Shrek is another. When she was younger, her 2 favorites were the Lion King and Aladdin, both, really detailed and dramatic.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandralynndodd
-=-The problem is that there is a fallacy in your last sentence. As I already wrote, she's not picking things "on her own", she's picking things in the selection I make for her. -=-
I don't think it's a fallacy, when one writes of choice, to assume that the choice is limited to what's available.
The list exists for discussing ideas, not for discussing individuals. Sometimes we can't help but get into the details of individual situations, but we should always be headed back toward the general ideas.
Sandra, speaking as the list owner
I don't think it's a fallacy, when one writes of choice, to assume that the choice is limited to what's available.
The list exists for discussing ideas, not for discussing individuals. Sometimes we can't help but get into the details of individual situations, but we should always be headed back toward the general ideas.
Sandra, speaking as the list owner
Guillaume JAY
----- "sandralynndodd" <Sandra@...> a écrit : -=-The problem is that there is a fallacy in your last sentence. As I already wrote, she's not picking things "on her own", she's picking things in the selection I make for her. -=-
If we head back toward the general ideas, I don't know any 4yo kid who picks things on tv "on his/her own". In my experience, it's just not possible, because they don't know how to read, and they don't know how to use a remote, or not well enough
(maybe it's because we parents did not help them : for example, I thought (but did not have the time to) to make some kind of gr aphical menus on the computer so that the kids can select by themselves the cartoons (stored on the harddisk) they want to see (but still, somebody would have need to put some cartoons on the harddisk..)
My point is that I thought I was accused of "picking stuff" for my daugther instead of letting her pick her own choice, while the facts are that she can't pick by herself (that's one reason why I would like that my kids learn to read as soon as possible, because they won't then need to rely on me for a lots of stuff) . Here was the fallacy for me.
Anyway, it does not matter much :)
The only general idea I can find which really interest me to discuss is "My problem with unschooling is that I don't trust myself to do it right, and not mess my kids in the process.." which 1) is not so general , and 2) i'm not sure it's a good subject for here.
Guillaume
>I'm not sure I understand.
> I don't think it's a fallacy, when one writes of choice, to assume that the choice is limited to what's available.
If we head back toward the general ideas, I don't know any 4yo kid who picks things on tv "on his/her own". In my experience, it's just not possible, because they don't know how to read, and they don't know how to use a remote, or not well enough
(maybe it's because we parents did not help them : for example, I thought (but did not have the time to) to make some kind of gr aphical menus on the computer so that the kids can select by themselves the cartoons (stored on the harddisk) they want to see (but still, somebody would have need to put some cartoons on the harddisk..)
My point is that I thought I was accused of "picking stuff" for my daugther instead of letting her pick her own choice, while the facts are that she can't pick by herself (that's one reason why I would like that my kids learn to read as soon as possible, because they won't then need to rely on me for a lots of stuff) . Here was the fallacy for me.
Anyway, it does not matter much :)
> The list exists for discussing ideas, not for discussing individuals. Sometimes we can't help but get into the details of individual situations, but we should always be headed back toward the general ideas.So, I think this is a not a good list for me (no bad feeling). I need help and advice with my kids, not high level ideas.
The only general idea I can find which really interest me to discuss is "My problem with unschooling is that I don't trust myself to do it right, and not mess my kids in the process.." which 1) is not so general , and 2) i'm not sure it's a good subject for here.
Guillaume
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/1/2010 1:55 AM, Guillaume JAY wrote:
and some of the applications of the ideas in people's real lives, and
most of us slowly integrate those big ideas into our thinking so that
all the things we do in our daily lives come out of the context of those
bigger ideas.
Sort of like this....a "big idea" for me is to be as honest as possible.
When my child asks me a question that is uncomfortable, I am guided by
that big idea - I answer as honestly as possible.
questions - do you trust yourself not to mess them up by schooling
them? Do you trust someone else not to mess them up if you send them off
to school? What would it take to give you the confidence that you won't
mess them up?
-pam
>> The list exists for discussing ideas, not for discussing individuals. Sometimes we can't help but get into the details of individual situations, but we should always be headed back toward the general ideas.Maybe. The way we've found this all works best is we discuss the ideas,
>>
> So, I think this is a not a good list for me (no bad feeling). I need help and advice with my kids, not high level ideas.
>
and some of the applications of the ideas in people's real lives, and
most of us slowly integrate those big ideas into our thinking so that
all the things we do in our daily lives come out of the context of those
bigger ideas.
Sort of like this....a "big idea" for me is to be as honest as possible.
When my child asks me a question that is uncomfortable, I am guided by
that big idea - I answer as honestly as possible.
>Pretty good question to discuss here. Makes me think of some more
> The only general idea I can find which really interest me to discuss is "My problem with unschooling is that I don't trust myself to do it right, and not mess my kids in the process.." which 1) is not so general , and 2) i'm not sure it's a good subject for here.
>
questions - do you trust yourself not to mess them up by schooling
them? Do you trust someone else not to mess them up if you send them off
to school? What would it take to give you the confidence that you won't
mess them up?
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-If we head back toward the general ideas, I don't know any 4yo kid
who picks things on tv "on his/her own". In my experience, it's just
not possible, because they don't know how to read, and they don't know
how to use a remote, or not well enough -=-
But the parents decide whether to say "Sure, okay," or "NO." And the
parents decide whether to encourage or discourage.
-=-My point is that I thought I was accused of "picking stuff" for my
daugther instead of letting her pick her own choice, while the facts
are that she can't pick by herself (that's one reason why I would like
that my kids learn to read as soon as possible, because they won't
then need to rely on me for a lots of stuff) . Here was the fallacy
for me.
-=-
"Fallacy" is too strong a statement to make when people are trying to
help you understand a concept, though. When female parents who have
female children are trying to help you, it might be good to just read
and think instead of telling them they're wrong.
Someone came here once asking whether or not she should let her kids
watch some particular show (or play some game, or whatever it was).
She wanted a consensus on Yes or No. When there was discussion and
people were talking about principles, she got totally ticked off and
started flailing about and telling us she didn't WANT that, she just
wanted to know whether she should do this one thing or not!
-=-The only general idea I can find which really interest me to
discuss is "My problem with unschooling is that I don't trust myself
to do it right, and not mess my kids in the process.." which 1) is not
so general , and 2) i'm not sure it's a good subject for here.
-=-
That IS the subject of this list, how parents can trust themselves and
not mess their kids up. That's the whole thing.
On another topic this morning, Joyce wrote this:
-=-Thinking in terms of
better choices is more helpful, meaning choices that move someone
closer to unschooling -- closer to better relationships, closer to
happier kids, closer to joyful exploration of the world. Because
there are definitely choices that move toward and choices that move
away from the goal. We can talk about why something moves closer, how
it makes a child feel and why they react as they do to it. That's one
of the purposes of the list.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
who picks things on tv "on his/her own". In my experience, it's just
not possible, because they don't know how to read, and they don't know
how to use a remote, or not well enough -=-
But the parents decide whether to say "Sure, okay," or "NO." And the
parents decide whether to encourage or discourage.
-=-My point is that I thought I was accused of "picking stuff" for my
daugther instead of letting her pick her own choice, while the facts
are that she can't pick by herself (that's one reason why I would like
that my kids learn to read as soon as possible, because they won't
then need to rely on me for a lots of stuff) . Here was the fallacy
for me.
-=-
"Fallacy" is too strong a statement to make when people are trying to
help you understand a concept, though. When female parents who have
female children are trying to help you, it might be good to just read
and think instead of telling them they're wrong.
Someone came here once asking whether or not she should let her kids
watch some particular show (or play some game, or whatever it was).
She wanted a consensus on Yes or No. When there was discussion and
people were talking about principles, she got totally ticked off and
started flailing about and telling us she didn't WANT that, she just
wanted to know whether she should do this one thing or not!
-=-The only general idea I can find which really interest me to
discuss is "My problem with unschooling is that I don't trust myself
to do it right, and not mess my kids in the process.." which 1) is not
so general , and 2) i'm not sure it's a good subject for here.
-=-
That IS the subject of this list, how parents can trust themselves and
not mess their kids up. That's the whole thing.
On another topic this morning, Joyce wrote this:
-=-Thinking in terms of
better choices is more helpful, meaning choices that move someone
closer to unschooling -- closer to better relationships, closer to
happier kids, closer to joyful exploration of the world. Because
there are definitely choices that move toward and choices that move
away from the goal. We can talk about why something moves closer, how
it makes a child feel and why they react as they do to it. That's one
of the purposes of the list.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***If we head back toward the general ideas, I don't know any 4yo kid who picks things on tv "on his/her own". In my experience, it's just not possible, because they don't know how to read, and they don't know how to use a remote, or not well enough***
Here! Chamille did! She was operating the remote control and vhs player at the age of 2. I don't know how she figured it out, she just did. She knew how to put music on the stereo, turn the radio on, put a cassette tape in, all of that. Margaux at the age of 8, is just now figuring it out, although she does already know how to operate an mp3 player, PS2, and nintendo DS, she's known how to do those things for a couple of years now. Different kids, different technology.
***I thought (but did not have the time to) to make some kind of gr aphical menus on the computer so that the kids can select by themselves the cartoons (stored on the harddisk) they want to see (but still, somebody would have need to put some cartoons on the harddisk..) ***
Desktop shortcuts. My husband did that on lots of various computers we've had so the kids could get they wanted with a simple double click of the mouse. To me, that sounds like an overwhelming task, to him, it's easy peasy and he just does it.
***My point is that I thought I was accused of "picking stuff" for my daugther instead of letting her pick her own choice, while the facts are that she can't pick by herself (that's one reason why I would like that my kids learn to read as soon as possible, because they won't then need to rely on me for a lots of stuff) . Here was the fallacy for me. ***
It might help for you to not see it as an accusation. Since I was the one who asked "why?" about the iCarly show, it was based on the words that you used in regards to navigating tv shows with a young child. I don't think anybody has said, "don't watch iCarly, don't pick shows out for your daughter." Kids don't need to be able to read to pick out shows on tv and use a remote control. If they know which basic buttons to use, they'll use them, if they stumble onto something that interests them, they'll stop and watch. I'm finding it hard to imagine a 4 yr old that doesn't have a clue as to what they want to watch, so much so, that they are completely reliant on their parents to figure it out for them.
There are literally thousands of movies and shows geared towards 4 yr olds. Out of those thousands, there will be some that appeal and some that won't. Go towards what you think will appeal based on who that 4 yr old is and what she likes. My oldest loved Pokemon at that age, my youngest never seemed interested, in fact hardly watched much tv at all at that age. If someone had said to me, "oh my 4 yr old daughter loves Pokemon, your's might to.", I would've thought, "maybe, but I doubt it."
***o, I think this is a not a good list for me (no bad feeling). I need help and advice with my kids, not high level ideas.***
***The only general idea I can find which really interest me to discuss is "My problem with unschooling is that I don't trust myself to do it right, and not mess my kids in the process.." which 1) is not so general , and 2) i'm not sure it's a good subject for here. ***
I don't think it's a high level of idea to think about looking directly at your kids and seeing what they like and dislike and go from there, offering more as you go along, letting them grab onto some things and let go of others.
I think it was the way in which you were presenting tv watching that caused the confusion, at least for me. It really did sound like you were trying to steer your child away from all the cutesy girly shows that she was addicted to.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here! Chamille did! She was operating the remote control and vhs player at the age of 2. I don't know how she figured it out, she just did. She knew how to put music on the stereo, turn the radio on, put a cassette tape in, all of that. Margaux at the age of 8, is just now figuring it out, although she does already know how to operate an mp3 player, PS2, and nintendo DS, she's known how to do those things for a couple of years now. Different kids, different technology.
***I thought (but did not have the time to) to make some kind of gr aphical menus on the computer so that the kids can select by themselves the cartoons (stored on the harddisk) they want to see (but still, somebody would have need to put some cartoons on the harddisk..) ***
Desktop shortcuts. My husband did that on lots of various computers we've had so the kids could get they wanted with a simple double click of the mouse. To me, that sounds like an overwhelming task, to him, it's easy peasy and he just does it.
***My point is that I thought I was accused of "picking stuff" for my daugther instead of letting her pick her own choice, while the facts are that she can't pick by herself (that's one reason why I would like that my kids learn to read as soon as possible, because they won't then need to rely on me for a lots of stuff) . Here was the fallacy for me. ***
It might help for you to not see it as an accusation. Since I was the one who asked "why?" about the iCarly show, it was based on the words that you used in regards to navigating tv shows with a young child. I don't think anybody has said, "don't watch iCarly, don't pick shows out for your daughter." Kids don't need to be able to read to pick out shows on tv and use a remote control. If they know which basic buttons to use, they'll use them, if they stumble onto something that interests them, they'll stop and watch. I'm finding it hard to imagine a 4 yr old that doesn't have a clue as to what they want to watch, so much so, that they are completely reliant on their parents to figure it out for them.
There are literally thousands of movies and shows geared towards 4 yr olds. Out of those thousands, there will be some that appeal and some that won't. Go towards what you think will appeal based on who that 4 yr old is and what she likes. My oldest loved Pokemon at that age, my youngest never seemed interested, in fact hardly watched much tv at all at that age. If someone had said to me, "oh my 4 yr old daughter loves Pokemon, your's might to.", I would've thought, "maybe, but I doubt it."
***o, I think this is a not a good list for me (no bad feeling). I need help and advice with my kids, not high level ideas.***
***The only general idea I can find which really interest me to discuss is "My problem with unschooling is that I don't trust myself to do it right, and not mess my kids in the process.." which 1) is not so general , and 2) i'm not sure it's a good subject for here. ***
I don't think it's a high level of idea to think about looking directly at your kids and seeing what they like and dislike and go from there, offering more as you go along, letting them grab onto some things and let go of others.
I think it was the way in which you were presenting tv watching that caused the confusion, at least for me. It really did sound like you were trying to steer your child away from all the cutesy girly shows that she was addicted to.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=, I don't know any 4yo kid who picks things on tv "on his/her own".
In my experience, it's just not possible, because they don't know how
to read, and they don't know how to use a remote, or not well enough***
-=-Here! Chamille did! -=-
Kirby did too, at four, and was playing video games. He could tell
video tapes and games apart by the labels without reading. The yellow
label was the six hour tape of Disney cartoons my sister recorded for
him. If he couldn't put the tape in, he could carry the box to me and
ask me to put it in.
We had a Mac IIsi and there was a kids' game called Playroom that
Kirby could play by moving the mouse and clicking, when he was two.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In my experience, it's just not possible, because they don't know how
to read, and they don't know how to use a remote, or not well enough***
-=-Here! Chamille did! -=-
Kirby did too, at four, and was playing video games. He could tell
video tapes and games apart by the labels without reading. The yellow
label was the six hour tape of Disney cartoons my sister recorded for
him. If he couldn't put the tape in, he could carry the box to me and
ask me to put it in.
We had a Mac IIsi and there was a kids' game called Playroom that
Kirby could play by moving the mouse and clicking, when he was two.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Guillaume JAY
Hi,
Like, Mathieu likes playing Star Wars Battlegrounds a lot, but I selected it for him.
For me, to pick some thing "on your own", you need to be able to discover the thing by yourself. When you choose things in a restricted selection made by someone else, you're not picking on your own.
Guillaume
> Kirby did too, at four, and was playing video games. He could tellSo, he did not pick it "on his own"... Your sister recorded the tape for him. He was stuck with her selection.
> video tapes and games apart by the labels without reading. The yellow
> label was the six hour tape of Disney cartoons my sister recorded for
> him.
> We had a Mac IIsi and there was a kids' game called Playroom thatI think Mathilde was also doing it, but for me, that's not a "real/free choice", she was only playing on the games I installed, she was not picking games on her own.
> Kirby could play by moving the mouse and clicking, when he was two.
Like, Mathieu likes playing Star Wars Battlegrounds a lot, but I selected it for him.
For me, to pick some thing "on your own", you need to be able to discover the thing by yourself. When you choose things in a restricted selection made by someone else, you're not picking on your own.
Guillaume
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Guillaume JAY
Hi Jenny,
(maybe it's also because I'm a man, and finding stuff my boy would like is easy, whereas I believe (maybe i'm wrong) that it's much harder with my daughter)
For example, I don't understand why she did not like Hilltop Hospital, which is quite cute, and which is about sick animals...
As already said, she likes Futuruma. Is it cute ? Is is geared towards 4yo girl ? I don't think so. Why then ? She knows I'll watch it with her, but I also take great pleasure in watching things more "appropriate", like Phineas & Ferb, or Avatar, so it's not only for me.
Anyway I have some iCarly shows available, I'm going to try soon.
Guillaume
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Desktop shortcuts. My husband did that on lots of various computers we've had so the kids could get they wanted with a simple double click of the mouse. To me, that sounds like an overwhelming task, to him, it's easy peasy and he just does it.Thumbnails view are good too. But, they're still not really picking their own choice : they're choosing among the things I pre-selected for them.
>know which basic buttons to use, they'll use them, if they stumble onto something that interests them, they'll stop and watch. I'm finding it hard to imagine a 4 yr old that doesn't have a clue as to >what they want to watch, so much so, that they are completely reliant on their parents to figure it out for them.Maybe our setup it too complicated, or too computer based, but they don't surf on the tv. Also, we're much more (we the parents) of the "watch something recorded" kind rather than "watch what's on" , so that must not help.
> If someone had said to me, "oh my 4 yr old daughter loves Pokemon, your's might to.", I would've thought, "maybe, but I doubt it."Maybe, but you can be wrong, and by not trying, missing something. (in fact, I a bit doubtful about iCarly (that's why I replied to the original poster), but.. I'm not sure)
(maybe it's also because I'm a man, and finding stuff my boy would like is easy, whereas I believe (maybe i'm wrong) that it's much harder with my daughter)
For example, I don't understand why she did not like Hilltop Hospital, which is quite cute, and which is about sick animals...
As already said, she likes Futuruma. Is it cute ? Is is geared towards 4yo girl ? I don't think so. Why then ? She knows I'll watch it with her, but I also take great pleasure in watching things more "appropriate", like Phineas & Ferb, or Avatar, so it's not only for me.
> I don't think it's a high level of idea to think about looking directly at your kids and seeing what they like and dislike and go from there, offering more as you go along, letting them grab onto some things and let go of others.That's what I'm doing. I just don't think I should offer only things they like -now- (more exactly : things based on what -I- believe they like and dislike), because I can be wrong. Mathieu LOVES GI.Joe, and a few days ago, watched three strawberry shortcakes in one sitting.
> I think it was the way in which you were presenting tv watching that caused the confusion, at least for me. It really did sound like you were trying to steer your child away from all the cutesy girly shows that she was addicted to.Yes, my wording was clumsy. That's totally not my goal. My goal is just finding stuff she'd like. I also liked the idea that she could after watching iCarly wants to do her own webcast (like the original poster's kids) , but that's the worst I can find about my goals :)
Anyway I have some iCarly shows available, I'm going to try soon.
Guillaume
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 2, 2010, at 5:38 AM, Guillaume JAY wrote:
The goal isn't to provide every choice in the world. Even adults
don't have that. Until the internet, my choices were limited by what
store buyers within a range I was willing to drive would choose to
stock. That's hardly every choice in the world and it's limited by
other's decisions.
The goal *for unschooling* is to help your child find what she likes
and avoid the things she doesn't like. If your goal is unschooling,
the choices you give her access to are what you believe she might
like based on what she's shown she likes. Basically you're using your
greater powers of filtering to filter the world the way *she* would
choose to if she could or wanted to. (At 18 my daughter enjoys
exploring music as widely as technology and record stores allow her
to do, but, though she loves going to plays with us, she's not
scouring the listings. She appreciates us showing her a few options
we think we all might enjoy together.)
No child wants all the choices in the world. I doubt most adults do
either. Many people have their favorite stores to shop in because the
store buyers have tastes that match their own. They don't want to
choose from 10,000 different styles of pants. They just want a few
dozen.
Where this line of discussion got derailed is this from your original
post:
is a negative word to refer to children's passions. Yes, I know you
later said you didn't mean it negatively. But in posts we only have
words not the intended meaning. So to be clear in writing and in
thinking, it good to keep in mind the meaning others will generally
read into words.
So the words in the first line suggest there are negative feelings
about your daughter's choices. (Again, we're talking about the idea
suggested by the words. Whether or not the idea is in your home, it's
now on the list and in people's heads. Not about you, but as a
concept to discuss. *Other* people will have thought "addicted" about
their children's passions in a negative way so it's a good
opportunity to discuss it.)
Second, you like that someone's children are doing webcasts because
they watch the show. This kind of thinking -- while natural and
common -- will lead someone away from unschooling. It's the "If I
expose my child to x, then maybe my child will do the y that I think
is cool." For unschooling purposes, it's good to face the child
rather than some direction you'd like them to go. It's good to focus
on the enjoyment and not a direction you think an interest will lead.
If a parent wants disappointment and frustration and negative
attitudes toward a child, then it's a good path. ;-) (Not a path that
guarantees that destination, but a path that leads that direction.)
I suspect you'd be okay if she never did a webcam after watching the
show, but to entertain a cool direction an interest could go is not
healthy for unschooling.
Here's a real life example: My daughter loves running and is a
natural long distance runner. She joined the cross country team as a
"freshman" (in my town homeschoolers can compete on school sports
teams) and immediately made varsity (top 10 runners on the team). My
husband was on the same team 35 years ago and wanted to help her do
what he did. She was enthusiastic at first. It took a year or so for
her to realize she loved running but didn't like competition. It took
my husband much longer for him to fully grasp what she was saying. It
didn't make sense to him! ;-) He's not a rabid competitor but he
likes the personal challenges. It didn't make sense to him that
someone could run well and not care whether they were improving or
not. And because he was facing the goal instead of her, there was a
lot of strain between them before they both finally figure it out and
he accepted it.
Third, you're liking the idea of suggesting something more realistic,
implying -- again, we only have words not intent -- there's something
lacking in her current choices.
That's another good idea to pull out and discuss for people trying to
get unschooling. It's good for unschooling to provide a variety of
choices and opportunities, even stretching beyond what a child has
shown she likes. We can't know whether they like dinosaurs if they've
never been exposed to them.
*But* if a parent is judging a child's choices as not as good as
activities the parent thinks are more worthwhile, that's a line of
thinking that isn't good for unschooling. To help a parent stop
unconsciously pressuring a child in the direction the parent wants
them to go, it would be better for the parent to *first* fully
embrace the child's passions and help the child explore those in the
way the *child* enjoys before the parent strews other ideas. The
parent needs to let go of the idea of pulling a child away from
something and embrace the idea of a range of choices the child enjoys
and being cool with what the child chooses.
Again, we're not talking about you. We're talking about the ideas the
words have suggested.
If you do want your ideas discussed, being as clear as you can be in
your wording helps. But once the discussion of an idea begins, that
idea doesn't belong to you anymore. It belongs to the list. You can
bring in new ideas that are closer to what might be troubling you,
but once the ideas reach the list, they're not yours anymore.
Joyce
> For me, to pick some thing "on your own", you need to be able toYou've lost sight of the goal ;-)
> discover the thing by yourself. When you choose things in a
> restricted selection made by someone else, you're not picking on
> your own.
The goal isn't to provide every choice in the world. Even adults
don't have that. Until the internet, my choices were limited by what
store buyers within a range I was willing to drive would choose to
stock. That's hardly every choice in the world and it's limited by
other's decisions.
The goal *for unschooling* is to help your child find what she likes
and avoid the things she doesn't like. If your goal is unschooling,
the choices you give her access to are what you believe she might
like based on what she's shown she likes. Basically you're using your
greater powers of filtering to filter the world the way *she* would
choose to if she could or wanted to. (At 18 my daughter enjoys
exploring music as widely as technology and record stores allow her
to do, but, though she loves going to plays with us, she's not
scouring the listings. She appreciates us showing her a few options
we think we all might enjoy together.)
No child wants all the choices in the world. I doubt most adults do
either. Many people have their favorite stores to shop in because the
store buyers have tastes that match their own. They don't want to
choose from 10,000 different styles of pants. They just want a few
dozen.
Where this line of discussion got derailed is this from your original
post:
> I don't think my (Strawberry Shortcake / Dora / Disney Princesses)-First, in English, to help people move toward unschooling, addicted
> addicted girl would like this kind of show.
>
> But I love that your kids are now doing webcast, and I like the
> idea of suggesting to her something a bit more "realistic"...
>
> So, .. I'm not sure what is my question in fact, since you already
> told your daughter loves it. I'm just going to try it :)
is a negative word to refer to children's passions. Yes, I know you
later said you didn't mean it negatively. But in posts we only have
words not the intended meaning. So to be clear in writing and in
thinking, it good to keep in mind the meaning others will generally
read into words.
So the words in the first line suggest there are negative feelings
about your daughter's choices. (Again, we're talking about the idea
suggested by the words. Whether or not the idea is in your home, it's
now on the list and in people's heads. Not about you, but as a
concept to discuss. *Other* people will have thought "addicted" about
their children's passions in a negative way so it's a good
opportunity to discuss it.)
Second, you like that someone's children are doing webcasts because
they watch the show. This kind of thinking -- while natural and
common -- will lead someone away from unschooling. It's the "If I
expose my child to x, then maybe my child will do the y that I think
is cool." For unschooling purposes, it's good to face the child
rather than some direction you'd like them to go. It's good to focus
on the enjoyment and not a direction you think an interest will lead.
If a parent wants disappointment and frustration and negative
attitudes toward a child, then it's a good path. ;-) (Not a path that
guarantees that destination, but a path that leads that direction.)
I suspect you'd be okay if she never did a webcam after watching the
show, but to entertain a cool direction an interest could go is not
healthy for unschooling.
Here's a real life example: My daughter loves running and is a
natural long distance runner. She joined the cross country team as a
"freshman" (in my town homeschoolers can compete on school sports
teams) and immediately made varsity (top 10 runners on the team). My
husband was on the same team 35 years ago and wanted to help her do
what he did. She was enthusiastic at first. It took a year or so for
her to realize she loved running but didn't like competition. It took
my husband much longer for him to fully grasp what she was saying. It
didn't make sense to him! ;-) He's not a rabid competitor but he
likes the personal challenges. It didn't make sense to him that
someone could run well and not care whether they were improving or
not. And because he was facing the goal instead of her, there was a
lot of strain between them before they both finally figure it out and
he accepted it.
Third, you're liking the idea of suggesting something more realistic,
implying -- again, we only have words not intent -- there's something
lacking in her current choices.
That's another good idea to pull out and discuss for people trying to
get unschooling. It's good for unschooling to provide a variety of
choices and opportunities, even stretching beyond what a child has
shown she likes. We can't know whether they like dinosaurs if they've
never been exposed to them.
*But* if a parent is judging a child's choices as not as good as
activities the parent thinks are more worthwhile, that's a line of
thinking that isn't good for unschooling. To help a parent stop
unconsciously pressuring a child in the direction the parent wants
them to go, it would be better for the parent to *first* fully
embrace the child's passions and help the child explore those in the
way the *child* enjoys before the parent strews other ideas. The
parent needs to let go of the idea of pulling a child away from
something and embrace the idea of a range of choices the child enjoys
and being cool with what the child chooses.
Again, we're not talking about you. We're talking about the ideas the
words have suggested.
If you do want your ideas discussed, being as clear as you can be in
your wording helps. But once the discussion of an idea begins, that
idea doesn't belong to you anymore. It belongs to the list. You can
bring in new ideas that are closer to what might be troubling you,
but once the ideas reach the list, they're not yours anymore.
Joyce
Beth Danicke
=\= I don't know any 4yo kid who picks things on tv "on his/her own".
In my experience, it's just not possible, because they don't know how
to read, and they don't know how to use a remote, or not well enough=\=
=\=Here! Chamille did! =\=
So did Caleb. He has always been electronically inclined and can usually
figure out how to work some new electronic thing before I even have a chance
to read the directions.
Beth D
In my experience, it's just not possible, because they don't know how
to read, and they don't know how to use a remote, or not well enough=\=
=\=Here! Chamille did! =\=
So did Caleb. He has always been electronically inclined and can usually
figure out how to work some new electronic thing before I even have a chance
to read the directions.
Beth D
Robyn Coburn
<<< For me, to pick some thing "on your own", you need to be able to
discover the thing by yourself. When you choose things in a restricted
selection made by someone else, you're not picking on your own. >>>>>
Children being and doing things "on their own" isn't an unschooling goal.
It's more like a life skill that will come with maturity (for most people -
certain medical conditions excepted).
My daughter had wanted to do things on her own, meaning without my help, in
piece meal manner. It hasn't been a linear thing either - she will return to
wanting help after appearing to master something. For example, for a long
time she would ask me to do the difficult parts of her computer games, that
she can now do for herself. However she will still ask me to do what she
considers to be the boring parts.Then in her personal needs she has long
moved from needing a lot of physical help, to only asking me to help her
rarely. This is natural.
I realize that Guillaume is talking about something more mental - the idea
of making choices freely. But again there is a difference, one of the most
wiggly concepts to work into, between a child being free to make their own
choices, and a child being left to make their own choices.
A couple of times there has been a kind of impatience expressed for the
child to learn to read, as if that will be the magic talisman that will
release the parents from responsibility for helping or supporting the choice
making process. I think it's a problematic idea, and perhaps not what
Guillame intended to express.
It is possible to offer your child choices based on visual cues. When I took
infant/toddler Jayn clothes shopping I would hold up two garments and buy
the one she reached for. Soon we could peruse the DVD aisles and she would
look at pictures of fun characters. It's about being out in the world and
watching and listening.
Children read at different times, unrelated to parental desire. Impatience,
even well intentioned impatience, won't speed and may hinder the process.
Also just because a child can read, does not mean that parents shouldn't
still read to them and with them and be intimately involved in the choices.
My daughter wants me to advise her - on her own terms by which I mean when
she asks me for advice. I would say that as she matures she is asking for my
opinion more often and with more willingness to hear it, rather than less.
The range of new offerings need not be done in a vacuum. Guillame seems
laudably concerned that he is limiting his children's choices to his own
interests, but seems equally worried because apparently because they like
what he has offered them! That is the place to start with the next offering
- games that are similar, other ways into the same world.
For example - starting with Star Wars Battleground - other games that are
similar in a variety of ways, other sci-fi games, other battle games; the
Star Wars movies; Star Wars Clone Wars animated series; picture books about
Star Wars and the making of the movies; some of the numerous (really
numerous) novels set in the Star Wars universe; toys and figures - then of
course the other games might be pathways to other activities too.
There is no predicting the path of a single interest. The way to offer might
be as simple as reading the tv guide and saying, "Oh look what's on
tomorrow".
I guess my point is that time, living in the world, and avoiding the
creation of artificial barriers to such interests as they will express, as
you will observe them expressing, will take care of your fears that their
choices are not real. They will find other influences and other sources of
inspiration. The other side of that is, of course there is another side,
just because they have plenty of new information coming in from the outside
world, does not then mean that parents are released from actively
unschooling, or that the kids are abandoned to make choices "on their own".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
discover the thing by yourself. When you choose things in a restricted
selection made by someone else, you're not picking on your own. >>>>>
Children being and doing things "on their own" isn't an unschooling goal.
It's more like a life skill that will come with maturity (for most people -
certain medical conditions excepted).
My daughter had wanted to do things on her own, meaning without my help, in
piece meal manner. It hasn't been a linear thing either - she will return to
wanting help after appearing to master something. For example, for a long
time she would ask me to do the difficult parts of her computer games, that
she can now do for herself. However she will still ask me to do what she
considers to be the boring parts.Then in her personal needs she has long
moved from needing a lot of physical help, to only asking me to help her
rarely. This is natural.
I realize that Guillaume is talking about something more mental - the idea
of making choices freely. But again there is a difference, one of the most
wiggly concepts to work into, between a child being free to make their own
choices, and a child being left to make their own choices.
A couple of times there has been a kind of impatience expressed for the
child to learn to read, as if that will be the magic talisman that will
release the parents from responsibility for helping or supporting the choice
making process. I think it's a problematic idea, and perhaps not what
Guillame intended to express.
It is possible to offer your child choices based on visual cues. When I took
infant/toddler Jayn clothes shopping I would hold up two garments and buy
the one she reached for. Soon we could peruse the DVD aisles and she would
look at pictures of fun characters. It's about being out in the world and
watching and listening.
Children read at different times, unrelated to parental desire. Impatience,
even well intentioned impatience, won't speed and may hinder the process.
Also just because a child can read, does not mean that parents shouldn't
still read to them and with them and be intimately involved in the choices.
My daughter wants me to advise her - on her own terms by which I mean when
she asks me for advice. I would say that as she matures she is asking for my
opinion more often and with more willingness to hear it, rather than less.
The range of new offerings need not be done in a vacuum. Guillame seems
laudably concerned that he is limiting his children's choices to his own
interests, but seems equally worried because apparently because they like
what he has offered them! That is the place to start with the next offering
- games that are similar, other ways into the same world.
For example - starting with Star Wars Battleground - other games that are
similar in a variety of ways, other sci-fi games, other battle games; the
Star Wars movies; Star Wars Clone Wars animated series; picture books about
Star Wars and the making of the movies; some of the numerous (really
numerous) novels set in the Star Wars universe; toys and figures - then of
course the other games might be pathways to other activities too.
There is no predicting the path of a single interest. The way to offer might
be as simple as reading the tv guide and saying, "Oh look what's on
tomorrow".
I guess my point is that time, living in the world, and avoiding the
creation of artificial barriers to such interests as they will express, as
you will observe them expressing, will take care of your fears that their
choices are not real. They will find other influences and other sources of
inspiration. The other side of that is, of course there is another side,
just because they have plenty of new information coming in from the outside
world, does not then mean that parents are released from actively
unschooling, or that the kids are abandoned to make choices "on their own".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
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Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
So, he did not pick it "on his own"... Your sister recorded the tape
for him. He was stuck with her selection. -=-
Did you look at my strewing page when I posted it? When I post a link
like this, and when people ignore them, it's frustrating.
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
He was not ever for one moment STUCK with the gift my sister gave
him. We had many other videos, too. That was an example. Every
single time he asked for it, he was making a choice.
-=-For me, to pick some thing "on your own", you need to be able to
discover the thing by yourself. When you choose things in a restricted
selection made by someone else, you're not picking on your own. -=-
Please try not to be stuck on that phrase. If your children have the
right to refuse an offer of a game or video, if you'll turn it off
when they don't like it, they are making choices. We could argue this
into the ground, but a much better use of this discussion would be to
talk about things that can help people understand unschooling better.
This really would help, I think:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So, he did not pick it "on his own"... Your sister recorded the tape
for him. He was stuck with her selection. -=-
Did you look at my strewing page when I posted it? When I post a link
like this, and when people ignore them, it's frustrating.
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
He was not ever for one moment STUCK with the gift my sister gave
him. We had many other videos, too. That was an example. Every
single time he asked for it, he was making a choice.
-=-For me, to pick some thing "on your own", you need to be able to
discover the thing by yourself. When you choose things in a restricted
selection made by someone else, you're not picking on your own. -=-
Please try not to be stuck on that phrase. If your children have the
right to refuse an offer of a game or video, if you'll turn it off
when they don't like it, they are making choices. We could argue this
into the ground, but a much better use of this discussion would be to
talk about things that can help people understand unschooling better.
This really would help, I think:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bernadette Lynn
On 2 February 2010 11:12, Guillaume JAY <gjay@...> wrote:
Center and very rarely watch TV 'live', but it doesn't really restrict the
children at all. They watch the trailers and the two or three minutes of
stuff at the beginning and end of programmes and if any of it interests them
we'll record that. They play games on the CBeebies website and if the
characters take their fancy they may ask us to record the relevant show.
They ask us to find or record programmes they see advertised in magazines or
in shops. They watch BBC iPlayer and sometimes ask us to record things they
watch on there. And of course they aren't restricted to things we've
recorded for them; it wouldn't have occurred to either me or James that our
eldest would enjoy watching 'Rough Science' as a four-year-old. We recorded
it for ourselves, but she watched and loved it so we recorded the next four
series for her.
I realise writing this that the majority of what my children watch is still
restricted to the BBC (they do watch a handful of shows on other channels
but not many) but I'd say two thirds of what they watch is stuff I didn't
choose to record for them. And some of those were found and chosen by my
non-reading nearly four-year-old, too.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>We have a very computer based setup, too; we record things onto our Media
>
> Maybe our setup it too complicated, or too computer based, but they don't
> surf on the tv. Also, we're much more (we the parents) of the "watch
> something recorded" kind rather than "watch what's on" , so that must not
> help.
>
>
Center and very rarely watch TV 'live', but it doesn't really restrict the
children at all. They watch the trailers and the two or three minutes of
stuff at the beginning and end of programmes and if any of it interests them
we'll record that. They play games on the CBeebies website and if the
characters take their fancy they may ask us to record the relevant show.
They ask us to find or record programmes they see advertised in magazines or
in shops. They watch BBC iPlayer and sometimes ask us to record things they
watch on there. And of course they aren't restricted to things we've
recorded for them; it wouldn't have occurred to either me or James that our
eldest would enjoy watching 'Rough Science' as a four-year-old. We recorded
it for ourselves, but she watched and loved it so we recorded the next four
series for her.
I realise writing this that the majority of what my children watch is still
restricted to the BBC (they do watch a handful of shows on other channels
but not many) but I'd say two thirds of what they watch is stuff I didn't
choose to record for them. And some of those were found and chosen by my
non-reading nearly four-year-old, too.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]