Food and anxiety
almadoing
The soda thread has prompted me to seek advice about my own sitution. The OP on that thread (Unschooling principles and special circumstances) mentioned Aspergers, and I know that one of the things which can help contribute to a dx on the autistic spectrum (Aspergers particularly) is a difficult relationship with food.
My own DS (7) is very anxious around food and drink. He has a number of fears and rituals and compulsions to do with food, as well as being extremely limited with food choices. He has to hand wash before eating and also several times during eating (for ex if his hand accidentally touches his plate). He will not eat food that has been near fruit or that he believes has been breathed on by anyone. He will only eat one food at a time, so tinned tuna and a slice of bread is eaten as a two course meal on separate plates. He will not eat in anyone else's house (except Granny's). And so on. He has meltdowns when we breach one of his rules around food.
Some say that these extremes are because of his severe food allergies as a baby, some say it's because he is on the spectrum.
For me, from an unschooling perspective, it is hard to trust his food choices when they are so tangled up with anxiety. I know his diet is nutritionally poor. He is thin and as a baby was dx "failing to thrive". For the last two years we have not tried to control his food intake. We have had conversations with him about the rituals and limits, health, nutrition, feelings etc but he is powerless to overcome these things.
As I write DH is talking to DS about drinks. Until about a month ago DS drank either water or Ocean Spray Cranberry and Raspberry juice. I happened to mention one day that I had just realised that the top two ingredients of Ocean Sparay juice were water and HFCS, and that it might be an idea to try some other brand with sugar instead of HFCS, because lots of people felt that HFCS was not good for the body long term. I didn't ban it or even ask him to stop drinking it. He reacted very strongly and immediately stopped drinking it. His struggle to try a different brand is painful to witness. He only drinks water but desperately wants juice. He will not drink Ocean Spray but as I write he is sitting on the kitchen floor weeping in front of a long line of other juices and drinks I have bought over the last month to try and tempt him. He looks and sounds tortured. DH is comforting and talking gently to him about his feelings and options.
I have heard it said somewhere that people can make the excuse that unschooling doesn't work for children with special needs but that they are mistaken. Unschooling is appropriate for all children. I agree but I don't know how to unschool this situation. DS is not happy with the status quo. But I don't know how to help him.
I haven't done it, and wouldn't do, it but I feel sometimes I just want to break him out of it by only serving him food with a piece of fruit on the table, or not letting him have more than one hand wash per meal etc. He wouldn't starve or would he?
How can I support him/us through this?
Alison
My own DS (7) is very anxious around food and drink. He has a number of fears and rituals and compulsions to do with food, as well as being extremely limited with food choices. He has to hand wash before eating and also several times during eating (for ex if his hand accidentally touches his plate). He will not eat food that has been near fruit or that he believes has been breathed on by anyone. He will only eat one food at a time, so tinned tuna and a slice of bread is eaten as a two course meal on separate plates. He will not eat in anyone else's house (except Granny's). And so on. He has meltdowns when we breach one of his rules around food.
Some say that these extremes are because of his severe food allergies as a baby, some say it's because he is on the spectrum.
For me, from an unschooling perspective, it is hard to trust his food choices when they are so tangled up with anxiety. I know his diet is nutritionally poor. He is thin and as a baby was dx "failing to thrive". For the last two years we have not tried to control his food intake. We have had conversations with him about the rituals and limits, health, nutrition, feelings etc but he is powerless to overcome these things.
As I write DH is talking to DS about drinks. Until about a month ago DS drank either water or Ocean Spray Cranberry and Raspberry juice. I happened to mention one day that I had just realised that the top two ingredients of Ocean Sparay juice were water and HFCS, and that it might be an idea to try some other brand with sugar instead of HFCS, because lots of people felt that HFCS was not good for the body long term. I didn't ban it or even ask him to stop drinking it. He reacted very strongly and immediately stopped drinking it. His struggle to try a different brand is painful to witness. He only drinks water but desperately wants juice. He will not drink Ocean Spray but as I write he is sitting on the kitchen floor weeping in front of a long line of other juices and drinks I have bought over the last month to try and tempt him. He looks and sounds tortured. DH is comforting and talking gently to him about his feelings and options.
I have heard it said somewhere that people can make the excuse that unschooling doesn't work for children with special needs but that they are mistaken. Unschooling is appropriate for all children. I agree but I don't know how to unschool this situation. DS is not happy with the status quo. But I don't know how to help him.
I haven't done it, and wouldn't do, it but I feel sometimes I just want to break him out of it by only serving him food with a piece of fruit on the table, or not letting him have more than one hand wash per meal etc. He wouldn't starve or would he?
How can I support him/us through this?
Alison
Chris Sanders
> I haven't done it, and wouldn't do, it but I feel sometimes I justI am by no means any kind of expert on these kinds of things but I do
> want to break him out of it by only serving him food with a piece of
> fruit on the table, or not letting him have more than one hand wash
> per meal etc. He wouldn't starve or would he?
>
> How can I support him/us through this?
have some experience with my daughter, Zoe, now 12 - who suddenly
became very anxious about food and eating/drinking when she was around
eight years old. She did several OCD-type behaviors including washing
her hands excessively and obsessing about what she would or would not/
had or had not eaten. She lost a considerable amount of weight over a
period of several months and her hands became very raw and sore -- we
were very concerned about her. I did a lot of research reading books,
asking questions of other unschooling families with children who
suffered OCD and consulting with therapists.
Over time, I discovered that the single most important way to help Zoe
was to become totally and unequivocally trustworthy to her. She was
quite guarded about her thought processes behind her behaviors. It was
only after she was able to relax, knowing that whatever her anxiety
was I would accommodate her immediately and without question, that she
was able to start to open up and share her fears and the thinking
behind them. For instance, she was very fearful to go anywhere away
from home and would often, suddenly, demand that we leave some place
or event. If I didn't accommodate her right then and there she would
try to leave on her own - start walking in the direction that she
thought was home or go to the car and stay by it if it was locked. We
started taking two vehicles on local family outings and we devised
plans for how we would leave if she needed to depart the area
suddenly. Over a long period of many months she began to trust that
we would get her out of whatever situation it was that was causing her
anxiety without asking any questions of her, and only then was she
willing to go places and participate in social activities. Trust was
key to her ability to relax and communicate with us about what was
happening.
I'm not saying that this approach will work for everyone with children
who worry or are anxious, but it has made such a huge difference in
our lives - now, just 3-1/2 years later, Zoe is eager to go places,
meet new people and try new experiences. I'm aware of the few triggers
for her anxieties - I need to have hand sanitzer or sanitizing wipes
handy when we travel and we are aware that she is particular about
eating out at certain types of restaurants and pot-luck situations.
She doesn't like anybody to notice or be aware of her anxieties but I
try to be sensitive to her sensibilities and have an action plan to
get her to a safe-feeling place if something unexpected should occur.
Last week, while we were at Sandra's Symposium in Santa Fe, Zoe
astounded me with her eager willingness to go to the Children's Museum
with a family she barely knew, and hang out multiple evenings in other
people's condominiums with crowds of young people playing games -- all
without me or her father around. Trust was the key for us.
Three years ago Zoe was desperate for help. She cried and asked me to
help her not be so fearful. I bought her this book: http://www.amazon.com/What-When-You-Worry-Much/dp/1591473144/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263488805&sr=8-3
and we read through it together several times. She employed some of
the techniques in it and they helped her cope with her obsessive
thoughts some. But I believe that her faith that her father and I
would help her and keep her safe no matter how insignificant we might
think the offending cause was, was the most important thing we did to
help her be able to relax and think more rationally.
Chris in IA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have heard it said somewhere that people can make the excuse that
unschooling doesn't work for children with special needs but that they
are mistaken. Unschooling is appropriate for all children. I agree but
I don't know how to unschool this situation. DS is not happy with the
status quo. But I don't know how to help him.-=-
I think you could help yourself and your husband by picturing what the
alternatives would be, and whether there would be more tears and
fears, or less.
Would putting him in school, where they'll put him in special ed and
try to train and condition him be better for him? For your
relationship with him? For his health?
Would using a curriculum every day be better? And would that make you
feel better about trying to starve him into eating other foods?
A friend of mine (female; very Aspergerish--parents physicists without
social awareness) ate storebought pastries--sweet rolls, mostly--for
over a year. That's all. We went on a weeklong campout. She had a
big bag of pre-packaged sweet rolls and donuts and that is all she ate.
After that year and a half or so was over, she started eating other
things. She was around 20 when that was happening.
Another thing that might help is thinking of the limited diets of MANY
people in the world, whether geographically determined, or traditional
(rice for every mean, or beans two or three times a day), or whether
because of drought.
This isn't a school vs. unschooling thing. Unschooling didn't cause
his food preferences, did it?
When I was little I remember being REALLY angry about foods touching.
Many kids are that way. They're trying to learn the differences in
food, and it doesn't help for a mom to rudely say it's going to all
end up in the same place anyway.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling doesn't work for children with special needs but that they
are mistaken. Unschooling is appropriate for all children. I agree but
I don't know how to unschool this situation. DS is not happy with the
status quo. But I don't know how to help him.-=-
I think you could help yourself and your husband by picturing what the
alternatives would be, and whether there would be more tears and
fears, or less.
Would putting him in school, where they'll put him in special ed and
try to train and condition him be better for him? For your
relationship with him? For his health?
Would using a curriculum every day be better? And would that make you
feel better about trying to starve him into eating other foods?
A friend of mine (female; very Aspergerish--parents physicists without
social awareness) ate storebought pastries--sweet rolls, mostly--for
over a year. That's all. We went on a weeklong campout. She had a
big bag of pre-packaged sweet rolls and donuts and that is all she ate.
After that year and a half or so was over, she started eating other
things. She was around 20 when that was happening.
Another thing that might help is thinking of the limited diets of MANY
people in the world, whether geographically determined, or traditional
(rice for every mean, or beans two or three times a day), or whether
because of drought.
This isn't a school vs. unschooling thing. Unschooling didn't cause
his food preferences, did it?
When I was little I remember being REALLY angry about foods touching.
Many kids are that way. They're trying to learn the differences in
food, and it doesn't help for a mom to rudely say it's going to all
end up in the same place anyway.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
><snip>
> My own DS (7) is very anxious around food and drink. He has a number
> of fears and rituals and compulsions to do with food, as well as
> being extremely limited with food choices. He has to hand wash
> before eating and also several times during eating (for ex if his
> hand accidentally touches his plate). He will not eat food that has
> been near fruit or that he believes has been breathed on by anyone.
> He will only eat one food at a time, so tinned tuna and a slice of
> bread is eaten as a two course meal on separate plates. He will not
> eat in anyone else's house (except Granny's). And so on. He has
> meltdowns when we breach one of his rules around food
>
> I haven't done it, and wouldn't do, it but I feel sometimes I justWhy would try to control him this way? You have no idea that it
> want to break him out of it by only serving him food with a piece of
> fruit on the table, or not letting him have more than one hand wash
> per meal etc. He wouldn't starve or would he?
wouldn't backfire badly, like the mention of HFCS. Maybe it would be
worse. *He* needs control of his environment to feel safe. When you
take that away, he loses his trust in you to help him navigate his
fears.
>Chris wrote about her experience and I would consider doing for your
>
> How can I support him/us through this?
son what they did for Zoe.
I would add being really careful about "happening to mention" how bad
something is around your son. It puts him in a scary place, worrying
about that food or drink he loves. I would apologize to him that I'd
even brought it up. You could say it's only some people's opinion
(which it is) that HFCS is bad. And hey, long-term means drinking
something every day in great quantities for a long time. We can't know
how long he'll want to drink it.
How about honoring his preferences? Don't breach his rules, if you can
help it at all. Buy him a special plate with sections and a lid. Give
him special tools (a fork he likes) and gloves if he prefers, when he
eats. Make it easy for him. And find ways to make it light and happy.
Not jollying him into things, but be obviously okay with what he
needs. There's an sense of exasperation in your writing that you can
bet he picks up on.
He eats bread, tuna, and drinks juice (or did) and water. Those are
good things. Trust that that's what he needs now. It might change and
it might not. Like Sandra said, many cultures have really restrictive
diets due to what's available.
My friend has a son, now 20, who would definitely been diagnosed high
functioning autistic. He was and is sensitive to taste, texture, and
color. He would eat Kraft Mac & Cheese every day, some kind of pasta
or potatoes the rest of the time. Fizzy lemonade to drink. He's over
6 feet tall, taking college classes, and still eating restrictively.
My friend realized early on that his food preferences were his food
preferences and she didn't make a big deal about it. He's happy and
healthy.
Robin B.
Pam Sorooshian
I have a niece who is 22 now. For most of her childhood - for at least
18 years - she ate the following foods and nothing else:
apples, applesauce, white flour tortillas, refried beans, peanut butter,
macaroni and cheese, cheddar cheese, milk, white bread, ice cream (only
if it was completely smooth - nothing extra in it).
She brought her own bag of food to eat if she went out anywhere.
Her brother, who is 15, is an adventurous eater - he relishes trying out
new and unusual foods.
Both raised in the same household with the same parents.
My sister was awesome in not making any kind of big deal about her
daughter's very very limited eating habits.
My niece now, at 22, eats a far wider variety of foods - as much variety
as any average person.
18 years - she ate the following foods and nothing else:
apples, applesauce, white flour tortillas, refried beans, peanut butter,
macaroni and cheese, cheddar cheese, milk, white bread, ice cream (only
if it was completely smooth - nothing extra in it).
She brought her own bag of food to eat if she went out anywhere.
Her brother, who is 15, is an adventurous eater - he relishes trying out
new and unusual foods.
Both raised in the same household with the same parents.
My sister was awesome in not making any kind of big deal about her
daughter's very very limited eating habits.
My niece now, at 22, eats a far wider variety of foods - as much variety
as any average person.
On 1/14/2010 10:03 AM, Robin Bentley wrote:
> He eats bread, tuna, and drinks juice (or did) and water.
Beth Danicke
=\=My sister was awesome in not making any kind of big deal about her
daughter's very very limited eating habits.
My niece now, at 22, eats a far wider variety of foods - as much variety
as any average person.=\=
I was a very picky eater. Textures and certain flavors were very
off-putting to me when I was a kid. When I was 2 or 3 years old all I
wanted to eat was hot dogs and my grandma's homemade vegetable soup. My
parents accommodated me for a while, until my mom decided around age 4 that
I was too skinny. Then the battling began. She was determine to make me
like and dislike whatever she thought I should. It was awful until she
finally gave up when I was around 8 or 9.
And you know what? I'm almost 40 years old and I'm the pickiest eater I
know. I am still turned off by the same flavors and textures. Forcing me
to eat "her way" didn't change me one bit. It only made for some very
traumatic mealtimes, resentful feelings, and bad memories involving my mom.
Not worth it.
Beth D
daughter's very very limited eating habits.
My niece now, at 22, eats a far wider variety of foods - as much variety
as any average person.=\=
I was a very picky eater. Textures and certain flavors were very
off-putting to me when I was a kid. When I was 2 or 3 years old all I
wanted to eat was hot dogs and my grandma's homemade vegetable soup. My
parents accommodated me for a while, until my mom decided around age 4 that
I was too skinny. Then the battling began. She was determine to make me
like and dislike whatever she thought I should. It was awful until she
finally gave up when I was around 8 or 9.
And you know what? I'm almost 40 years old and I'm the pickiest eater I
know. I am still turned off by the same flavors and textures. Forcing me
to eat "her way" didn't change me one bit. It only made for some very
traumatic mealtimes, resentful feelings, and bad memories involving my mom.
Not worth it.
Beth D
Deb Lewis
***My own DS (7) is very anxious around food and drink. He has a number of fears and rituals and compulsions to do with food, as well as being extremely limited with food choices.***
Dylan didn't have anxiety that I remember but he had strong preferences and rituals. He was and still is a frequent hand washer, not compulsive, but if someone was looking to label him they might easily notice his hand washing. While he did not wash his hands during a meal if his hand touched his plate he did wash them if they touched food, or if his drinking glass had condensation and his hand got wet. He doesn't wash his hands during a meal now unless he gets an unexpected cat on his lap or something like that.<g>
Dylan was eventually diagnosed with psoriasis. Not anxiety, not autism, not ocd. He has a chronic skin disease and his skin, especially on his hands has always felt weird and he learned to soothe them with cold water.
So we can't always know why a certain thing makes a kid feel better.
All people have food preferences and rituals. You don't notice your own anymore because you've been doing them forever but the first time you eat with a new acquaintance theirs are obvious!<g> Some people smell their food before eating. Some people turn their plate so the food they're eating is right in front of them. Some people scoot their food around on the plate. Some people have to have just the right amount of food on the fork. Someone eating with you for the first time would notice your quirks.
I do not like my food to touch on the plate. I eat one thing gone and then eat the next. David (dh) *likes* his food all scooshed together and is happily surprised when he gets combination flavors in one bite. Dylan prefers, except for salad, foods without sauces. He likes nuts and he likes bread be he doesn't want to find nuts in his bread.<g> He doesn't like food "surprises" no unexpected ooze or crunch in a food he thought was solid or soft.
Food preferences, food rituals are normal. A limited palate is *very* normal for children. A kid who eats any and everything is the exception.
***Some say that these extremes are because of his severe food allergies as a baby***
I'd say probably yeah, if you had anxiety about his foods and were super careful then you showed him exactly how to be with food. And if that's the case, your continued problems with the way he eats and washes and whatever are just adding to his worry. Let him do what he feels he needs to do. Stop expressing and showing your own anxieties over his rituals and preferences. Act like whatever way you eat and he eats is just the right way for each of you. When you've relaxed then he probably will too.
***some say it's because he is on the spectrum.***
And so what if he is? Do you think, if he lives with you for eleven more years and sees how you eat, and how his dad eats, (if you'll both calm down!) and how dinner guests eat and if he watches movies and sees people eat, that he won't get some different ideas about food and eating himself? Do you think, if he's "on the spectrum" that means he is not entitled to his own preferences as a child, that he can't, like any other child decide what he wants to eat and how? Just because someone's ideas about food are different doesn't mean the person has less right to them. (you know, unless they're eating neighborhood children or digging up graves for a snack, or something.)
***For me, from an unschooling perspective, it is hard to trust his food choices when they are so tangled up with anxiety. I know his diet is nutritionally poor. He is thin and as a baby was dx "failing to thrive". For the last two years we have not tried to control his food intake. We have had conversations with him about the rituals and limits, health, nutrition, feelings etc but he is powerless to overcome these things. ***
I don't think he's powerless. I think your worry keeps feeding his. Let it be, be cool about it. Stop talking about food. I don't think you can say anything now that won't worry him. You wrote that you have not tried to control his food intake but if you're talking to him *at all* about food and he's sensitive about it already (which he is) then *any* comment you make is going to cause him concern.
***I happened to mention one day that I had just realised that the top two ingredients of Ocean Sparay juice were water and HFCS, and that it might be an idea to try some other brand with sugar instead of HFCS, because lots of people felt that HFCS was not good for the body long term. <snip> He looks and sounds tortured. ***
Well he *IS* tortured. If he had allergies as a baby and your example has been that food might be dangerous then you've just told him one more thing is dangerous. Let him eat what he wants and how he wants and get over the idea he has to be just like everybody else. He's seven! He has years to get more comfortable with life and germs and food but he can't if you keep filling him up with worry and fear.
***I haven't done it, and wouldn't do, it but I feel sometimes I just want to break him out of it by only serving him food with a piece of fruit on the table, or not letting him have more than one hand wash per meal etc. He wouldn't starve or would he?***
If some of his anxiety has been caused by your worry over allergens and your worry that he's not eating enough and your worry that he eats weird then the more unpleasantness you bring to the food table is only going to add to his anxiety. If your husband hated avocados would you serve them to him to snap him out of it? I don't know if he would starve but no child can thrive if he's hounded and disrespected by his parents.
***How can I support him/us through this?***
Let him wash his hands. Let him have two or three plates or whatever. Let him choose his own food. Don't say anything negative about calories, or nutrition content or ingredients you're suspicious of, stop making food something to worry over and over time his own worry will subside. Eat what you like, try new things yourself, but let him be.
Over the years Dylan's food choices expanded. Quite suddenly when he was sixteen he started eating lots of foods he never wanted to try before. He still does not like carrots or strong tomato flavor. A boy who is seven with strong food preference will someday be a boy of sixteen. Maybe he'll still have strong food preferences! I only know a few adults who will eat anything... everyone has preferences. But in those years you can relax and help him eat how he wants or you can keep adding anxiety to his food.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dylan didn't have anxiety that I remember but he had strong preferences and rituals. He was and still is a frequent hand washer, not compulsive, but if someone was looking to label him they might easily notice his hand washing. While he did not wash his hands during a meal if his hand touched his plate he did wash them if they touched food, or if his drinking glass had condensation and his hand got wet. He doesn't wash his hands during a meal now unless he gets an unexpected cat on his lap or something like that.<g>
Dylan was eventually diagnosed with psoriasis. Not anxiety, not autism, not ocd. He has a chronic skin disease and his skin, especially on his hands has always felt weird and he learned to soothe them with cold water.
So we can't always know why a certain thing makes a kid feel better.
All people have food preferences and rituals. You don't notice your own anymore because you've been doing them forever but the first time you eat with a new acquaintance theirs are obvious!<g> Some people smell their food before eating. Some people turn their plate so the food they're eating is right in front of them. Some people scoot their food around on the plate. Some people have to have just the right amount of food on the fork. Someone eating with you for the first time would notice your quirks.
I do not like my food to touch on the plate. I eat one thing gone and then eat the next. David (dh) *likes* his food all scooshed together and is happily surprised when he gets combination flavors in one bite. Dylan prefers, except for salad, foods without sauces. He likes nuts and he likes bread be he doesn't want to find nuts in his bread.<g> He doesn't like food "surprises" no unexpected ooze or crunch in a food he thought was solid or soft.
Food preferences, food rituals are normal. A limited palate is *very* normal for children. A kid who eats any and everything is the exception.
***Some say that these extremes are because of his severe food allergies as a baby***
I'd say probably yeah, if you had anxiety about his foods and were super careful then you showed him exactly how to be with food. And if that's the case, your continued problems with the way he eats and washes and whatever are just adding to his worry. Let him do what he feels he needs to do. Stop expressing and showing your own anxieties over his rituals and preferences. Act like whatever way you eat and he eats is just the right way for each of you. When you've relaxed then he probably will too.
***some say it's because he is on the spectrum.***
And so what if he is? Do you think, if he lives with you for eleven more years and sees how you eat, and how his dad eats, (if you'll both calm down!) and how dinner guests eat and if he watches movies and sees people eat, that he won't get some different ideas about food and eating himself? Do you think, if he's "on the spectrum" that means he is not entitled to his own preferences as a child, that he can't, like any other child decide what he wants to eat and how? Just because someone's ideas about food are different doesn't mean the person has less right to them. (you know, unless they're eating neighborhood children or digging up graves for a snack, or something.)
***For me, from an unschooling perspective, it is hard to trust his food choices when they are so tangled up with anxiety. I know his diet is nutritionally poor. He is thin and as a baby was dx "failing to thrive". For the last two years we have not tried to control his food intake. We have had conversations with him about the rituals and limits, health, nutrition, feelings etc but he is powerless to overcome these things. ***
I don't think he's powerless. I think your worry keeps feeding his. Let it be, be cool about it. Stop talking about food. I don't think you can say anything now that won't worry him. You wrote that you have not tried to control his food intake but if you're talking to him *at all* about food and he's sensitive about it already (which he is) then *any* comment you make is going to cause him concern.
***I happened to mention one day that I had just realised that the top two ingredients of Ocean Sparay juice were water and HFCS, and that it might be an idea to try some other brand with sugar instead of HFCS, because lots of people felt that HFCS was not good for the body long term. <snip> He looks and sounds tortured. ***
Well he *IS* tortured. If he had allergies as a baby and your example has been that food might be dangerous then you've just told him one more thing is dangerous. Let him eat what he wants and how he wants and get over the idea he has to be just like everybody else. He's seven! He has years to get more comfortable with life and germs and food but he can't if you keep filling him up with worry and fear.
***I haven't done it, and wouldn't do, it but I feel sometimes I just want to break him out of it by only serving him food with a piece of fruit on the table, or not letting him have more than one hand wash per meal etc. He wouldn't starve or would he?***
If some of his anxiety has been caused by your worry over allergens and your worry that he's not eating enough and your worry that he eats weird then the more unpleasantness you bring to the food table is only going to add to his anxiety. If your husband hated avocados would you serve them to him to snap him out of it? I don't know if he would starve but no child can thrive if he's hounded and disrespected by his parents.
***How can I support him/us through this?***
Let him wash his hands. Let him have two or three plates or whatever. Let him choose his own food. Don't say anything negative about calories, or nutrition content or ingredients you're suspicious of, stop making food something to worry over and over time his own worry will subside. Eat what you like, try new things yourself, but let him be.
Over the years Dylan's food choices expanded. Quite suddenly when he was sixteen he started eating lots of foods he never wanted to try before. He still does not like carrots or strong tomato flavor. A boy who is seven with strong food preference will someday be a boy of sixteen. Maybe he'll still have strong food preferences! I only know a few adults who will eat anything... everyone has preferences. But in those years you can relax and help him eat how he wants or you can keep adding anxiety to his food.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LEAH ROSE
<<For me, from an unschooling perspective, it is hard to trust his food choices when they are so tangled up with anxiety. I know his diet is nutritionally poor. He is thin and as a baby was dx "failing to thrive". For the last two years we have not tried to control his food intake. We have had conversations with him about the rituals and limits, health, nutrition, feelings etc but he is powerless to overcome these things.
But I don't know how to help him.
How can I support him/us through this?>>
Alison,
You may want to visit http://www.theevolutionarybrain.com and www.brainstatetech.com
I went to a lecture on brain training (a form of neuro-feedback) and also know a few people - kids and adults - with depression, anxiety, panic attacks, OCD, etc. who have had their lives literally transformed by this technology. It is amazing. Doesn't matter whether the causes or the symptoms are physical, emotional or psychological, past or present, genetic, traumatic, etc., Brain State technology harmonizes the brain (brings it into balance) and brings healing to the individual. We are looking at it for our teen, who struggles with anxiety, sleep issues, and depression, and I am considering it for myself to help with fuzzy thinking, anxiety, sleep, and anger/control issues. My general rule is "if something sounds too good to be true that's because it is" however, because I have friends who have done this and I personally know someone who provides brain training - and I know he is neither a shyster nor a quack - I have absolute confidence in the miracle it can bring to my son and to me. It isn't cheap, but I believe the results will be priceless.
Best wishes to you on your journey,
~Leah
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But I don't know how to help him.
How can I support him/us through this?>>
Alison,
You may want to visit http://www.theevolutionarybrain.com and www.brainstatetech.com
I went to a lecture on brain training (a form of neuro-feedback) and also know a few people - kids and adults - with depression, anxiety, panic attacks, OCD, etc. who have had their lives literally transformed by this technology. It is amazing. Doesn't matter whether the causes or the symptoms are physical, emotional or psychological, past or present, genetic, traumatic, etc., Brain State technology harmonizes the brain (brings it into balance) and brings healing to the individual. We are looking at it for our teen, who struggles with anxiety, sleep issues, and depression, and I am considering it for myself to help with fuzzy thinking, anxiety, sleep, and anger/control issues. My general rule is "if something sounds too good to be true that's because it is" however, because I have friends who have done this and I personally know someone who provides brain training - and I know he is neither a shyster nor a quack - I have absolute confidence in the miracle it can bring to my son and to me. It isn't cheap, but I believe the results will be priceless.
Best wishes to you on your journey,
~Leah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Do you think, if he's "on the spectrum" that means he is not
entitled to his own preferences as a child, that he can't, like any
other child decide what he wants to eat and how? -=-
Good point.
Unschooling works the same way for anyone, and the use of labels in
this discussion has made me uncomfortable.
If school would be better, then do that.
If traditional parenting would be better, then do that.
If unschooling will be better, let's talk about it without any
assumptions that unschooling works differently with different kinds of
kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
entitled to his own preferences as a child, that he can't, like any
other child decide what he wants to eat and how? -=-
Good point.
Unschooling works the same way for anyone, and the use of labels in
this discussion has made me uncomfortable.
If school would be better, then do that.
If traditional parenting would be better, then do that.
If unschooling will be better, let's talk about it without any
assumptions that unschooling works differently with different kinds of
kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
On Jan 15, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
It's "doing something" about a child. Do autistic kids not have
preferences? Are they completely helpless and opinion-less? Not in my
experience. Their perceived lack of "acceptable" communication skills
seems to bring out the need for parents to override their kids "to
help them." ~
In my own experience, anything other than unschooling would have been
worse for my daughter and worse for our relationship (and was, long
ago). I still see it when I or my dh slip into traditional parenting
for a teeny moment. Our life is not sunshine and rainbows all the
time, but it isn't monsoons and avalanches either. It might have felt
a bit like the latter some days, when we were all new at this. But the
rain has let up and the snow has melted away and we're only a tiny bit
soggy now and again <g>.
Not that I'm saying "unschooling = sunshine and rainbows." But it's
close!
Robin B.
> -=-Do you think, if he's "on the spectrum" that means he is notI wrote this the other day on the UnschoolingDiscussion list:
> entitled to his own preferences as a child, that he can't, like any
> other child decide what he wants to eat and how? -=-
>
> Good point.
>
> Unschooling works the same way for anyone, and the use of labels in
> this discussion has made me uncomfortable.
>
> If school would be better, then do that.
> If traditional parenting would be better, then do that.
>
> If unschooling will be better, let's talk about it without any
> assumptions that unschooling works differently with different kinds of
> kids.
>~ The diets suggested by autism support groups are still controlling.
It's "doing something" about a child. Do autistic kids not have
preferences? Are they completely helpless and opinion-less? Not in my
experience. Their perceived lack of "acceptable" communication skills
seems to bring out the need for parents to override their kids "to
help them." ~
In my own experience, anything other than unschooling would have been
worse for my daughter and worse for our relationship (and was, long
ago). I still see it when I or my dh slip into traditional parenting
for a teeny moment. Our life is not sunshine and rainbows all the
time, but it isn't monsoons and avalanches either. It might have felt
a bit like the latter some days, when we were all new at this. But the
rain has let up and the snow has melted away and we're only a tiny bit
soggy now and again <g>.
Not that I'm saying "unschooling = sunshine and rainbows." But it's
close!
Robin B.
Joanna
> ~ The diets suggested by autism support groups are still controlling.But it's not the diets that are controlling. Controlling people are controlling. If a person is having an issue, and making a shift in diet can help, then that's helpful. A person (or parent) making someone ELSE change against their will is controlling.
I can't eat much wheat or else I have chronic indigestion. Not eating wheat isn't controlling, but when someone I love tries to keep it out of my reach, whether I like it or not, for my own good, I feel controlled. My son does this sometimes and I have to remind him that I don't control what he eats... :-)
If a family is happily and healthily unschooling, then using the information from a diet might be something that a kid, or anyone, might like to try to see if it helps them feel better. But I do agree that the tone and understanding of that kind of information isn't at all presented that way. It is presented as something you may have to "do" to your kid.
Joanna
emubird21
This sounds a lot like what my daughter and I do -- we find a food that's ok, and then are afraid to try anything else. In our case, it's allergies. We're just not willing to put something else in our body that MIGHT hurt.
I've seen my daughter do a lot of those rituals too, although she's not as extreme.
If that's what's causing him trouble, he might not have even figured out his own motivation.
And I do hear the occasional rumor that autism might, in some kids, be a result of food allergies.
If he had allergies as a baby, this is even more likely. What was he allergic to as a baby? Has he outgrown the allergy? Or did it just morph into something else?
I'm not saying this IS the cause, just that it might be something to consider. Unfortunately, probably the best way to figure out whether he still has allergies (and if they're causing his problems) would be to do an elimination diet, and that sounds like it would be pretty brutal for all involved (unless he gets it into his head that it might be a good idea).
Emu
I've seen my daughter do a lot of those rituals too, although she's not as extreme.
If that's what's causing him trouble, he might not have even figured out his own motivation.
And I do hear the occasional rumor that autism might, in some kids, be a result of food allergies.
If he had allergies as a baby, this is even more likely. What was he allergic to as a baby? Has he outgrown the allergy? Or did it just morph into something else?
I'm not saying this IS the cause, just that it might be something to consider. Unfortunately, probably the best way to figure out whether he still has allergies (and if they're causing his problems) would be to do an elimination diet, and that sounds like it would be pretty brutal for all involved (unless he gets it into his head that it might be a good idea).
Emu
Sandra Dodd
-=-
If that's what's causing him trouble, he might not have even figured
out his own motivation.-=-
If the parents allow him to choose, his motivation isn't important.
-=-I'm not saying this IS the cause, just that it might be something
to consider. Unfortunately, probably the best way to figure out
whether he still has allergies (and if they're causing his problems)
would be to do an elimination diet, and that sounds like it would be
pretty brutal for all involved (unless he gets it into his head that
it might be a good idea).-=-
If a child only wants to eat certain things, that IS their elimination
diet. They've elimintated other things. <g>
Sandra
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If that's what's causing him trouble, he might not have even figured
out his own motivation.-=-
If the parents allow him to choose, his motivation isn't important.
-=-I'm not saying this IS the cause, just that it might be something
to consider. Unfortunately, probably the best way to figure out
whether he still has allergies (and if they're causing his problems)
would be to do an elimination diet, and that sounds like it would be
pretty brutal for all involved (unless he gets it into his head that
it might be a good idea).-=-
If a child only wants to eat certain things, that IS their elimination
diet. They've elimintated other things. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I'm not saying this IS the cause, just that it might be something to consider. Unfortunately, probably the best way to figure out whether he still has allergies (and if they're causing his problems) would be to do an elimination diet, and that sounds like it would be pretty brutal for all involved (unless he gets it into his head that it might be a good idea).***
Elimination diets are brutal, as you say, however I don't believe they are the best way! I think if a kid is always sick and it seems to be food related, allergy tests are quicker and easier than a prolonged elimination diet.
If a parent can relax about food, even food that a kid may be allergic to, then a kid can relax about it too. If a kid can relax about food, they'll be much more able to say "yes" or "no" to foods. If a child is really allergic to something, his body WILL let him know and he WILL avoid it, even if he's not aware of doing it.
From a very early age my youngest daughter knew that eating too many citrus fruits gave her runny poops. I'm talking about the age of 2 or 3, and it wasn't me that figured it out, it was her. She discovered on her own, through trial and error, how much she could eat and when too many was too many and she'd naturally stop eating when she felt she'd reached that limit. Same with all other foods whether or not she's got an allergy to it. She knows that eating too much dairy makes her feel yucky and gives her a white coating on her tongue. She cuts back on it when this happens and will eat soy yogurt for a day or 2 and it brings her body back to a balance. I didn't tell her to do that, she was craving yogurt everytime she'd eat lots of dairy, so we made it available and she'd eat and eat until it was all gone or she felt better. Even dairy yogurt will help, although it's not nearly as effective as soy.
I could tell her that she couldn't eat dairy and remove it from the house, but that wouldn't create peace. It would create a feeling that dairy was more powerful than she is. She'd be really upset about not having her chocolate, really really really upset. Being upset about food wouldn't create health and peace about food.
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Elimination diets are brutal, as you say, however I don't believe they are the best way! I think if a kid is always sick and it seems to be food related, allergy tests are quicker and easier than a prolonged elimination diet.
If a parent can relax about food, even food that a kid may be allergic to, then a kid can relax about it too. If a kid can relax about food, they'll be much more able to say "yes" or "no" to foods. If a child is really allergic to something, his body WILL let him know and he WILL avoid it, even if he's not aware of doing it.
From a very early age my youngest daughter knew that eating too many citrus fruits gave her runny poops. I'm talking about the age of 2 or 3, and it wasn't me that figured it out, it was her. She discovered on her own, through trial and error, how much she could eat and when too many was too many and she'd naturally stop eating when she felt she'd reached that limit. Same with all other foods whether or not she's got an allergy to it. She knows that eating too much dairy makes her feel yucky and gives her a white coating on her tongue. She cuts back on it when this happens and will eat soy yogurt for a day or 2 and it brings her body back to a balance. I didn't tell her to do that, she was craving yogurt everytime she'd eat lots of dairy, so we made it available and she'd eat and eat until it was all gone or she felt better. Even dairy yogurt will help, although it's not nearly as effective as soy.
I could tell her that she couldn't eat dairy and remove it from the house, but that wouldn't create peace. It would create a feeling that dairy was more powerful than she is. She'd be really upset about not having her chocolate, really really really upset. Being upset about food wouldn't create health and peace about food.
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emubird21
Allergy testing is notoriously unreliable for food allergies. An elimination diet is usually the best diagnostic tool. One can get all kinds of false positives and negatives with allergy testing. And no, the allergic person often can't figure out which food is causing the problem. That's the point of the elimination diet. It's not a means of torture. It's a way of answering a question that can't be answered in any other way.
Also, it sometimes happens that the person wants to eat more and more of the allergic food. It can give a kind of "high" and seem addictive. So if a child wants to eat only one food and not any others, this may be the exact wrong thing for their body. This is true of adults too.
This has nothing to do with "relaxing" about food. It possibly about treating a medical condition, which isn't always pleasant. However, we're not with the child in question, so I don't think we should be giving hard and fast rules about this. The poster was looking for ideas and suggestions. I gave a few. She can take them or leave them as they seem to be helpful.
It's nice that your child figured out her own food intolerances, but I was the one who figured out what foods made *my* kids sick. Should I have kept my mouth shut? They are living much happier lives now and are extremely grateful to me for seeing the connection. We all need an outside opinion now and then. There's no reason we shouldn't give these to our own children if it seems appropriate. It has hardly stunted my child's growth that I've figured out how to stop her daily, incapacitating migraines. But I get the feeling from some of the posts that folks here think I should have just not told her what I knew.
Also, it sometimes happens that the person wants to eat more and more of the allergic food. It can give a kind of "high" and seem addictive. So if a child wants to eat only one food and not any others, this may be the exact wrong thing for their body. This is true of adults too.
This has nothing to do with "relaxing" about food. It possibly about treating a medical condition, which isn't always pleasant. However, we're not with the child in question, so I don't think we should be giving hard and fast rules about this. The poster was looking for ideas and suggestions. I gave a few. She can take them or leave them as they seem to be helpful.
It's nice that your child figured out her own food intolerances, but I was the one who figured out what foods made *my* kids sick. Should I have kept my mouth shut? They are living much happier lives now and are extremely grateful to me for seeing the connection. We all need an outside opinion now and then. There's no reason we shouldn't give these to our own children if it seems appropriate. It has hardly stunted my child's growth that I've figured out how to stop her daily, incapacitating migraines. But I get the feeling from some of the posts that folks here think I should have just not told her what I knew.
Sandra Dodd
Emubird, please chill.
You haven't told us, I don't think, how long you've been unschooling,
how old your children are. Your response is the sort of frightening
"food will kill us" propaganda that's easily found all over the web
and off. If anyone wants that sort of information it's available.
-=-It's nice that your child figured out her own food intolerances,
but I was the one who figured out what foods made *my* kids sick.
Should I have kept my mouth shut? They are living much happier lives
now and are extremely grateful to me for seeing the connection. We all
need an outside opinion now and then.-=-
No one here is lacking the ability to get an outside opinion, I'm
sure. They're on the internet. They can read. They're unschooling
(I assume) and so are hooked in to all kinds of information.
This one list in particular is for no other purpose than to discuss
how unschooling works and what sorts of things can make unschooling
better. On this list, experience in limiting children's food isn't as
valuable as information on successful unschooling. On this list, the
idea that if someone wants something it must be bad for them is a Very
Bad idea. It's a very common idea in this culture in general, that
medicine has to taste bad, that fun is sin, that people aren't here to
have a good time, but to suffer and the die and then go to hell or
heaven. This leads to all sorts of sorrow and recommendations for
dealing with inevitable sorrow, and the evils of eating what one wants
to.
Those ideas are legal to have, and legal to use to control children,
but on the Always Learning list, they're not useful to help others see
how kindness and generosity and patience and understanding can
transform their families' lives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You haven't told us, I don't think, how long you've been unschooling,
how old your children are. Your response is the sort of frightening
"food will kill us" propaganda that's easily found all over the web
and off. If anyone wants that sort of information it's available.
-=-It's nice that your child figured out her own food intolerances,
but I was the one who figured out what foods made *my* kids sick.
Should I have kept my mouth shut? They are living much happier lives
now and are extremely grateful to me for seeing the connection. We all
need an outside opinion now and then.-=-
No one here is lacking the ability to get an outside opinion, I'm
sure. They're on the internet. They can read. They're unschooling
(I assume) and so are hooked in to all kinds of information.
This one list in particular is for no other purpose than to discuss
how unschooling works and what sorts of things can make unschooling
better. On this list, experience in limiting children's food isn't as
valuable as information on successful unschooling. On this list, the
idea that if someone wants something it must be bad for them is a Very
Bad idea. It's a very common idea in this culture in general, that
medicine has to taste bad, that fun is sin, that people aren't here to
have a good time, but to suffer and the die and then go to hell or
heaven. This leads to all sorts of sorrow and recommendations for
dealing with inevitable sorrow, and the evils of eating what one wants
to.
Those ideas are legal to have, and legal to use to control children,
but on the Always Learning list, they're not useful to help others see
how kindness and generosity and patience and understanding can
transform their families' lives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
> "This has nothing to do with "relaxing" about food. It possibly about treating a medical condition, which isn't always pleasant. However, we're not with the child in question, so I don't think we should be giving hard and fast rules about this."I agree that this list should be about giving specific medical advice, and I think there should maybe be enough room to accommodate the different experiences of different children, but the principles of unschooling can definitely apply in all situations around food issues.
If, for instance, a child has a difficulty with food that is best approached through an elimination diet, one could force the diet upon a child. That wouldn't be living with unschooling principles. On the other hand, a parent and child could be working together to uncover the difficulties, and an elimination diet could be a tool to use in that process. But the key, imho, is that the parent has trust that a child will ultimately be able to do what is best, so if the child isn't feeling good and doesn't know why, and the parent is trusted and suggests an elimination diet, it is with the understanding that the child has choice about whether to try it or not.
My son is trying a gluten free diet right now. I won't go into the particulars, but it's his choice, and remains his choice about whether to continue. After a time, he'll evaluate whether he feels different or not, and maybe add wheat back, and then see again what happens.
I think that there is absolutely a piece in there about a parent relaxing their attitude. If we are not talking life and death, there is no reason that a child can't have the freedome to make their own choices around food and do their own experimentation. If they are allowed to do that from early on, they may be able to avoid the offenders, if they have more complexities, they will invariably choose to feel better. I've seen it work with several other unschooled children as well.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-I agree that this list should be about giving specific medical
advice, and I think there should maybe be enough room to accommodate
the different experiences of different children, but the principles of
unschooling can definitely apply in all situations around food issues.
-=-
I'm guessing you meant that the list should NOT be about giving
specific medical advice. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
advice, and I think there should maybe be enough room to accommodate
the different experiences of different children, but the principles of
unschooling can definitely apply in all situations around food issues.
-=-
I'm guessing you meant that the list should NOT be about giving
specific medical advice. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
Uh, yeah--oops!
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I agree that this list should be about giving specific medical
> advice, and I think there should maybe be enough room to accommodate
> the different experiences of different children, but the principles of
> unschooling can definitely apply in all situations around food issues.
> -=-
>
> I'm guessing you meant that the list should NOT be about giving
> specific medical advice. <g>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny Cyphers
***Allergy testing is notoriously unreliable for food allergies.***
That hasn't been my experience with food allergy testing. It might depend on the kind of test one does. Elimination diets can also be unreliable, but more than that, they don't help kids be relaxed about food.
***And no, the allergic person often can't figure out which food is causing the problem.***
That would definitely be true for me because I grew up being told what to eat and how much and when. I wasn't allowed to really listen to my body, so that by the time I got really sick, the very best way for me to get well, was to start all over with allergy testing and elimination.
That has NOT been the case for my kids, both of whom have certain food items they avoid when they want to and eat when they feel like. They do NOT have weird food issues. They eat what they want and don't eat what doesn't feel right to eat. It flies in the face of all the conventional food thought like what you've written here:
***Also, it sometimes happens that the person wants to eat more and more of the allergic food. It can give a kind of "high" and seem addictive. So if a child wants to eat only one food and not any others, this may be the exact wrong thing for their body. This is true of adults too.***
I've heard this so many times repeated as if it were truth. It hasn't proven true for my kids. What HAS worked tremendously well, is letting them eat what they feel like eating, discarding what they don't, without any baggage attatched.
***It's nice that your child figured out her own food intolerances, but I was the one who figured out what foods made *my* kids sick.***
I knew that my youngest couldn't tolerate dairy since she was a baby. It seemed very obvious to me, but as she's gotten older, she's made her own choices. We have both dairy and non-dairy things in the house that she's been able to choose from and eat.
***Should I have kept my mouth shut?***
Maybe. Sharing information that you may find helpful could be helpful if the receiver of the information perceives it as such. If they perceive it as just mom blowing hot air and mom nagging again, or mom on her health food soap box again, then mom needs to keep her mouth shut.
When my oldest decided that she didn't want to eat much food, barely enough to subsist on, I kept my mouth shut. It was the best thing I could've done. Parents can do soooo much damage to their children's relationship with food and I didn't want to be one of those moms who drove her daughter to an eating disorder by making a big deal out of her eating habits. I've known lots of people with eating disorders and I could see clearly how parents played a big part in that.
***It has hardly stunted my child's growth that I've figured out how to stop her daily, incapacitating migraines.***
From about the age of 7-12, my oldest suffered random incapacitating migraines. They weren't all the time, about 4 or 5 really terrible ones a year that would last days at a time. When we went to the dr. about it, the regiment was to do elimination diets. The reality was that she didn't want to do that. She wanted to eat what she wanted and not go all crazy with diets. Then from about 12-14 she did her own sort of elimination diet, by simply not eating. The headaches stopped and she came away with a great deal of knowledge about herself and food and her relationship with food. If I'd forced the elimination diets, I would've robbed her of that self discovery.
***But I get the feeling from some of the posts that folks here think I should have just not told her what I knew.***
Sharing information isn't the same thing as forcing it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That hasn't been my experience with food allergy testing. It might depend on the kind of test one does. Elimination diets can also be unreliable, but more than that, they don't help kids be relaxed about food.
***And no, the allergic person often can't figure out which food is causing the problem.***
That would definitely be true for me because I grew up being told what to eat and how much and when. I wasn't allowed to really listen to my body, so that by the time I got really sick, the very best way for me to get well, was to start all over with allergy testing and elimination.
That has NOT been the case for my kids, both of whom have certain food items they avoid when they want to and eat when they feel like. They do NOT have weird food issues. They eat what they want and don't eat what doesn't feel right to eat. It flies in the face of all the conventional food thought like what you've written here:
***Also, it sometimes happens that the person wants to eat more and more of the allergic food. It can give a kind of "high" and seem addictive. So if a child wants to eat only one food and not any others, this may be the exact wrong thing for their body. This is true of adults too.***
I've heard this so many times repeated as if it were truth. It hasn't proven true for my kids. What HAS worked tremendously well, is letting them eat what they feel like eating, discarding what they don't, without any baggage attatched.
***It's nice that your child figured out her own food intolerances, but I was the one who figured out what foods made *my* kids sick.***
I knew that my youngest couldn't tolerate dairy since she was a baby. It seemed very obvious to me, but as she's gotten older, she's made her own choices. We have both dairy and non-dairy things in the house that she's been able to choose from and eat.
***Should I have kept my mouth shut?***
Maybe. Sharing information that you may find helpful could be helpful if the receiver of the information perceives it as such. If they perceive it as just mom blowing hot air and mom nagging again, or mom on her health food soap box again, then mom needs to keep her mouth shut.
When my oldest decided that she didn't want to eat much food, barely enough to subsist on, I kept my mouth shut. It was the best thing I could've done. Parents can do soooo much damage to their children's relationship with food and I didn't want to be one of those moms who drove her daughter to an eating disorder by making a big deal out of her eating habits. I've known lots of people with eating disorders and I could see clearly how parents played a big part in that.
***It has hardly stunted my child's growth that I've figured out how to stop her daily, incapacitating migraines.***
From about the age of 7-12, my oldest suffered random incapacitating migraines. They weren't all the time, about 4 or 5 really terrible ones a year that would last days at a time. When we went to the dr. about it, the regiment was to do elimination diets. The reality was that she didn't want to do that. She wanted to eat what she wanted and not go all crazy with diets. Then from about 12-14 she did her own sort of elimination diet, by simply not eating. The headaches stopped and she came away with a great deal of knowledge about herself and food and her relationship with food. If I'd forced the elimination diets, I would've robbed her of that self discovery.
***But I get the feeling from some of the posts that folks here think I should have just not told her what I knew.***
Sharing information isn't the same thing as forcing it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thecugals
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I recently read in an article about autism and food issues that "eating disorders are common in all children", which made me laugh because I thought, in that case we should stop calling them disorders and see them as part of growing up. The point in the article was not to worry too much about food choices. The article also made the point, however, that "children with special needs require special intervention." The tricky part as a parent is figuring out when a child REALLY needs special intervention, and when a child can decide what to eat and how.
Beth C.
>It depends. The autism spectrum is very broad. Some kids eat non-edible items. A parent can't let a child decide to eat that.
> -=-Do you think, if he's "on the spectrum" that means he is not
> entitled to his own preferences as a child, that he can't, like any
> other child decide what he wants to eat and how? -=-
>
> Good point.
I recently read in an article about autism and food issues that "eating disorders are common in all children", which made me laugh because I thought, in that case we should stop calling them disorders and see them as part of growing up. The point in the article was not to worry too much about food choices. The article also made the point, however, that "children with special needs require special intervention." The tricky part as a parent is figuring out when a child REALLY needs special intervention, and when a child can decide what to eat and how.
> Unschooling works the same way for anyone, and the use of labels inIt makes a lot of people uncomfortable. In my own opinion the use of labels can be both good and bad. My son was diagnosed with Asperger Sydrome at the age of 5. At first I was so happy to have this diagnosis because I was able to get lots of info. about it, and my reading truly helped me to understand his thinking, and our family relationships are the better for it. On the negative side, I have caught myself sometimes attributing something to AS that was just regular kid behavior, and at times, I became unnecesarily freaked out about something because I read or heard that it was a problem for kids with autism.
> this discussion has made me uncomfortable.
> If school would be better, then do that.Maybe a separate list would be good; where people could discuss unschooling and autism together.
> If traditional parenting would be better, then do that.
>
> If unschooling will be better, let's talk about it without any
> assumptions that unschooling works differently with different kinds of
> kids.
Beth C.
Sandra Dodd
***But I get the feeling from some of the posts that folks here think
I should have just not told her what I knew.***
-=-Sharing information isn't the same thing as forcing it.-=-
Much of what people think they "know" is not knowledge, but it's
theory, or hopeful idea. When parents are over-confident in their
repetition of what they read once, or what their friends are sure of,
it can lead to kids ignoring their parents.
If parents show the humility to say "It might be" rather than "I
KNOW," it's better for relationships. It's better for thinking.
Sharing information is wonderful. Declaring the mother to be right
and the child to be addicted to the one food they still enjoy is not
good for relationships, nor health, nor thinking.
Many parents want to tell their children what they (the parents) know,
assuming that will become what the children "know."
The basis of unschooling is helping children learn naturally, rather
than dictating to them.
The glory of unschooling is that our children learn in ways their
parents never imagined could exist.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I should have just not told her what I knew.***
-=-Sharing information isn't the same thing as forcing it.-=-
Much of what people think they "know" is not knowledge, but it's
theory, or hopeful idea. When parents are over-confident in their
repetition of what they read once, or what their friends are sure of,
it can lead to kids ignoring their parents.
If parents show the humility to say "It might be" rather than "I
KNOW," it's better for relationships. It's better for thinking.
Sharing information is wonderful. Declaring the mother to be right
and the child to be addicted to the one food they still enjoy is not
good for relationships, nor health, nor thinking.
Many parents want to tell their children what they (the parents) know,
assuming that will become what the children "know."
The basis of unschooling is helping children learn naturally, rather
than dictating to them.
The glory of unschooling is that our children learn in ways their
parents never imagined could exist.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I recently read in an article about autism and food issues that
"eating disorders are common in all children", which made me laugh
because I thought, in that case we should stop calling them disorders
and see them as part of growing up.-=-
Perhaps that's true.
Probably that's one of the very worst things about calling anything "a
disorder" or "special needs."
-=- The article also made the point, however, that "children with
special needs require special intervention." The tricky part as a
parent is figuring out when a child REALLY needs special intervention,
and when a child can decide what to eat and how.-=-
There are tens of thousands of articles written every day. Man of
them aren't "written," but are reports on other articles. If every
article will seem as important and true as any other, parents will
never be able to settle and thrive.
There are families here for whom unschooling has worked well for a
dozen years or more. Eighteen years at my house. There are other
lists that started in reaction to objections to other lists. Few to
none survived. Some survived but denied their origins and became more
like the list they left.
If newer unschoolers leave a place where experienced unschoolers are
writing because the ideas don't match what they wish unschooling was,
where will they learn more about unschooling?
There are lists where people will agree with anything other writers
say. They're not useful lists except for the mental massage of the
moment. For moms who prefer to hear "Of course you're right" to "you
could be making a big mistake," I've collected real messages from real
moms here:
http://sandradodd.com/support
Some parents want to say "there's something wrong with my child" to
excuse themselves from needing to figure out how to live with that
child and make his life easier. If drugs or foods seem the way to go,
because they read an article or something that promised them results,
then the child continues to be pointed at as "wrong" and "special
needs."
When unschooling principles will work, they should be allowed to work
the best way they can.
If unschooling principles won't work, then the parents have a big
world of other options.
Changing this discussion to allow for things that are not helpful to
unschooling won't help anyone or anything.
Creating another unschooling list to deal with labelled special needs
can be done, certainly, but I don't think it will lead to
unschooling. And at some point it might lead to the list's owner
saying not to label, even if it starts off with labels.
If a parent wants to unschool, it would be better to pay attention to
those who have seen hundreds come and go, succeed and fail, and not
assume that all ideas are equal.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"eating disorders are common in all children", which made me laugh
because I thought, in that case we should stop calling them disorders
and see them as part of growing up.-=-
Perhaps that's true.
Probably that's one of the very worst things about calling anything "a
disorder" or "special needs."
-=- The article also made the point, however, that "children with
special needs require special intervention." The tricky part as a
parent is figuring out when a child REALLY needs special intervention,
and when a child can decide what to eat and how.-=-
There are tens of thousands of articles written every day. Man of
them aren't "written," but are reports on other articles. If every
article will seem as important and true as any other, parents will
never be able to settle and thrive.
There are families here for whom unschooling has worked well for a
dozen years or more. Eighteen years at my house. There are other
lists that started in reaction to objections to other lists. Few to
none survived. Some survived but denied their origins and became more
like the list they left.
If newer unschoolers leave a place where experienced unschoolers are
writing because the ideas don't match what they wish unschooling was,
where will they learn more about unschooling?
There are lists where people will agree with anything other writers
say. They're not useful lists except for the mental massage of the
moment. For moms who prefer to hear "Of course you're right" to "you
could be making a big mistake," I've collected real messages from real
moms here:
http://sandradodd.com/support
Some parents want to say "there's something wrong with my child" to
excuse themselves from needing to figure out how to live with that
child and make his life easier. If drugs or foods seem the way to go,
because they read an article or something that promised them results,
then the child continues to be pointed at as "wrong" and "special
needs."
When unschooling principles will work, they should be allowed to work
the best way they can.
If unschooling principles won't work, then the parents have a big
world of other options.
Changing this discussion to allow for things that are not helpful to
unschooling won't help anyone or anything.
Creating another unschooling list to deal with labelled special needs
can be done, certainly, but I don't think it will lead to
unschooling. And at some point it might lead to the list's owner
saying not to label, even if it starts off with labels.
If a parent wants to unschool, it would be better to pay attention to
those who have seen hundreds come and go, succeed and fail, and not
assume that all ideas are equal.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
Where extremely picky eating becomes a concern to me for our son (age 15) is how it effects his whole life.
He started out eating basically anything, then around the age of 6 (same time he began to struggle in school) he began to eliminate foods he had once loved. By age 8 he ate only about 5 foods. He ate nothing but tacos for several years - flour tortilla, ground beef with Taco Bell seasoning and shredded lettuce. He will not eat anything that travels well - so taking a cooler with food is not going to work - most food has to be warm/hot for him. He does tend to rotate his favorite item more regularly - he used to eat the same two meals for at least a year and then switch - now he changes about every two to four weeks. The changing is pure angst for him he will go several days without eating and then make the change to a new (same as something in the past). Up until about a year ago he would stand in the kitchen and literally cry, saying I'm starving but nothing sounds good. If we fixed him something anyway - something he had been eating - he'd refuse to eat it saying - I'm tired of that - It doesn't taste good anymore. Now at age 15 it is more like whining but he still goes through these stages about every 2-4 weeks.
He has not eaten a fruit nor a vegetable in years - OK I take that back he does eat lettuce on his tacos at Taco Bell. And he has just started eating at Taco Bell again after several years of not eating there.
Where it is limiting is there are so many social activities involving food: parties, sleep overs, day camps, visits to relatives, family dinners, etc. he chooses not to attend many social things that would last more than a few hours because, "What would I eat?" Gentle reminders that he might want to eat before he goes somewhere helps some but not much.
Foods he likes at a restaurant, he does not like at home and it has to be only at a particular restaurant - though he will eat plain bacon cheese burgers at many restaurants as long as it is not a fast food restaurant. He will not eat a burger fixed at home though. He loves Teriyaki beef form one particular restaurant, but not from home and no other restaurant. Food has to be fixed a certain way - for example cheese on a bacon cheese burger and cheese on his nachos - but he will not eat cheese on any other food nor just eat cheese. He will eat lettuce on his tacos from Taco Bell but never lettuce any other way. He loves to eat plain Lays potato chips with his roast beef sandwich from Subway but he will never eat just the chips by themselves nor with anything else. And the specifics go on and on.
He too went through a hand washing stage when he was around 9 - when his hands got chapped and bleeding he managed to stop the washing. He will never use any type of lotion nor lip balm - so when his lips are cracked and bleeding he just lets it be. He will not use soap on his face either.
From my internet searches I do know that there are adults out there that eat less than he does - for example nothing but French fries and cheese bread. Some have health issues and some do not. Most do say that it has really impacted their lives and they wish they were not this way - that social situations are very difficult and work situations can be extremely difficult. Many find privacy to eat (like eating in their vehicle) so people don't question them and make statements about their eating. Relationships can be difficult as most people do not understand that picky eating is not a choice. For some people it is all about the texture, for some it has to be bland food, etc. Some people have been picky from birth and others became picky later in childhood. Many of the picky people that are parents have some children that are picky and some that are not, or none of their children are picky.
Most of them have been to therapist, hypnotherapists, etc - some say it helped a tiny bit and others say it didn't help at all.
I guess what I'm trying to say is there is no one shoe fits all for the why or how of picky eating.
Acceptance comes in realizing that we give the freedom to choose what he eats knowing he may or may not change. We do not give him the freedom to choose his food - expecting him to change - thinking "Oh, if I give him any food he wants then he will eventually expand his choices." won't work because he may or may not. The acceptance comes from allowing him to choose anyway.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He started out eating basically anything, then around the age of 6 (same time he began to struggle in school) he began to eliminate foods he had once loved. By age 8 he ate only about 5 foods. He ate nothing but tacos for several years - flour tortilla, ground beef with Taco Bell seasoning and shredded lettuce. He will not eat anything that travels well - so taking a cooler with food is not going to work - most food has to be warm/hot for him. He does tend to rotate his favorite item more regularly - he used to eat the same two meals for at least a year and then switch - now he changes about every two to four weeks. The changing is pure angst for him he will go several days without eating and then make the change to a new (same as something in the past). Up until about a year ago he would stand in the kitchen and literally cry, saying I'm starving but nothing sounds good. If we fixed him something anyway - something he had been eating - he'd refuse to eat it saying - I'm tired of that - It doesn't taste good anymore. Now at age 15 it is more like whining but he still goes through these stages about every 2-4 weeks.
He has not eaten a fruit nor a vegetable in years - OK I take that back he does eat lettuce on his tacos at Taco Bell. And he has just started eating at Taco Bell again after several years of not eating there.
Where it is limiting is there are so many social activities involving food: parties, sleep overs, day camps, visits to relatives, family dinners, etc. he chooses not to attend many social things that would last more than a few hours because, "What would I eat?" Gentle reminders that he might want to eat before he goes somewhere helps some but not much.
Foods he likes at a restaurant, he does not like at home and it has to be only at a particular restaurant - though he will eat plain bacon cheese burgers at many restaurants as long as it is not a fast food restaurant. He will not eat a burger fixed at home though. He loves Teriyaki beef form one particular restaurant, but not from home and no other restaurant. Food has to be fixed a certain way - for example cheese on a bacon cheese burger and cheese on his nachos - but he will not eat cheese on any other food nor just eat cheese. He will eat lettuce on his tacos from Taco Bell but never lettuce any other way. He loves to eat plain Lays potato chips with his roast beef sandwich from Subway but he will never eat just the chips by themselves nor with anything else. And the specifics go on and on.
He too went through a hand washing stage when he was around 9 - when his hands got chapped and bleeding he managed to stop the washing. He will never use any type of lotion nor lip balm - so when his lips are cracked and bleeding he just lets it be. He will not use soap on his face either.
From my internet searches I do know that there are adults out there that eat less than he does - for example nothing but French fries and cheese bread. Some have health issues and some do not. Most do say that it has really impacted their lives and they wish they were not this way - that social situations are very difficult and work situations can be extremely difficult. Many find privacy to eat (like eating in their vehicle) so people don't question them and make statements about their eating. Relationships can be difficult as most people do not understand that picky eating is not a choice. For some people it is all about the texture, for some it has to be bland food, etc. Some people have been picky from birth and others became picky later in childhood. Many of the picky people that are parents have some children that are picky and some that are not, or none of their children are picky.
Most of them have been to therapist, hypnotherapists, etc - some say it helped a tiny bit and others say it didn't help at all.
I guess what I'm trying to say is there is no one shoe fits all for the why or how of picky eating.
Acceptance comes in realizing that we give the freedom to choose what he eats knowing he may or may not change. We do not give him the freedom to choose his food - expecting him to change - thinking "Oh, if I give him any food he wants then he will eventually expand his choices." won't work because he may or may not. The acceptance comes from allowing him to choose anyway.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/17/2010 6:15 AM, thecugals wrote:
here, should always be taken by a parent as "Look really clearly and
honestly at your own child and figure out how to apply these general
principles to that real child standing in front of you."
When a child is super active and super high energy - has a need to
wiggle and move constantly - we often recommend helping him or her to be
more active (as opposed to drugging, for example). We might suggest
getting a mini-trampoline for the kid to bounce on when watching tv. If
your kid has no arms or legs, maybe a mini-tramp will seem like it
doesn't apply to your kid - but the overall idea is SUPPORT your child
just as he or she is and that WILL apply. So, you look at your own real
child and figure out how to do that in a way that works for your child.
There are undoubtedly ways to help a child who has no arms or legs to be
able to be more active - my sister has a program for young children with
major orthopedic disabilities and this is her life - find ways to
support these kids in doing what they each want to do. It sometimes
involves equipment, but it always always involves thinking in terms of
supporting that child - not thinking in limited ways about that child.
It is up to you to figure out how to apply the general principles of
unschooling in your life with your child - it doesn't do anybody ANY
good to say, "Yeah, but...", to the advice you get. Instead, try to
figure out how it might be applied in your particular case.
Get the sense of what unschooling is like - what it means- why it makes
sense. Don't argue with particulars. As it sinks in to you, you will
introduce it gradually into your family's life just because it will make
sense. It isn't likely that you can go from control and restriction to
complete freedom and expect good results very quickly if you've done all
kinds of switching from one approach to another, over time, this will be
just another thing mom is desperately trying.
If you ARE introducing it as just one more desperate attempt to find
something that "works," then it won't work. Unschooling isn't a method,
it isn't a new technique to use on your child to get the outcome you want.
Just think about one choice at a time - don't make big broad sweeping
huge changes in your family's lifestyle all at once. Just think of some
way you can be more supportive, more respectful to the child's
interests. When you make the next choice, think of a way you can be a
bit more of a facilitator and less of a dictator.
It really doesn't matter what diagnoses your child has - these
principles are exactly the same. And every single one of us has to
figure out how they work in our own family with our own real children.
MY child may not have the same kinds of issues yours has, but, trust me,
my child is different, too. Your issues are harder, I'm not trying to
downplay them, but the unschooling approach TO them is still exactly the
same.
My suggestion to you is that sometimes parents with autistic kids are
very concrete and specific, themselves, and they look at the specific
examples, but aren't catching on to the bigger picture - the overall
sense of how unschooling works. You might be hearing very clearly that
we don't limit or restrict food, but it might be that you're hearing
that outside of the bigger context of how the family lives. It is the
BIGGER context that matters most.
I think people often need to think more about how to set the stage for
being able to live without food restrictions in a happy way, and less
about the specific restrictions. Maybe they'll naturally drop the
restrictions when they no longer make sense to them, when they seem
wrong to inflict in the context of an overall unschooling life.
-pam
> The point in the article was not to worry too much about food choices. The article also made the point, however, that "children with special needs require special intervention." The tricky part as a parent is figuring out when a child REALLY needs special intervention, and when a child can decide what to eat and how.The thing is - isn't this true for every single child? Whatever we say,
>
here, should always be taken by a parent as "Look really clearly and
honestly at your own child and figure out how to apply these general
principles to that real child standing in front of you."
When a child is super active and super high energy - has a need to
wiggle and move constantly - we often recommend helping him or her to be
more active (as opposed to drugging, for example). We might suggest
getting a mini-trampoline for the kid to bounce on when watching tv. If
your kid has no arms or legs, maybe a mini-tramp will seem like it
doesn't apply to your kid - but the overall idea is SUPPORT your child
just as he or she is and that WILL apply. So, you look at your own real
child and figure out how to do that in a way that works for your child.
There are undoubtedly ways to help a child who has no arms or legs to be
able to be more active - my sister has a program for young children with
major orthopedic disabilities and this is her life - find ways to
support these kids in doing what they each want to do. It sometimes
involves equipment, but it always always involves thinking in terms of
supporting that child - not thinking in limited ways about that child.
It is up to you to figure out how to apply the general principles of
unschooling in your life with your child - it doesn't do anybody ANY
good to say, "Yeah, but...", to the advice you get. Instead, try to
figure out how it might be applied in your particular case.
Get the sense of what unschooling is like - what it means- why it makes
sense. Don't argue with particulars. As it sinks in to you, you will
introduce it gradually into your family's life just because it will make
sense. It isn't likely that you can go from control and restriction to
complete freedom and expect good results very quickly if you've done all
kinds of switching from one approach to another, over time, this will be
just another thing mom is desperately trying.
If you ARE introducing it as just one more desperate attempt to find
something that "works," then it won't work. Unschooling isn't a method,
it isn't a new technique to use on your child to get the outcome you want.
Just think about one choice at a time - don't make big broad sweeping
huge changes in your family's lifestyle all at once. Just think of some
way you can be more supportive, more respectful to the child's
interests. When you make the next choice, think of a way you can be a
bit more of a facilitator and less of a dictator.
It really doesn't matter what diagnoses your child has - these
principles are exactly the same. And every single one of us has to
figure out how they work in our own family with our own real children.
MY child may not have the same kinds of issues yours has, but, trust me,
my child is different, too. Your issues are harder, I'm not trying to
downplay them, but the unschooling approach TO them is still exactly the
same.
My suggestion to you is that sometimes parents with autistic kids are
very concrete and specific, themselves, and they look at the specific
examples, but aren't catching on to the bigger picture - the overall
sense of how unschooling works. You might be hearing very clearly that
we don't limit or restrict food, but it might be that you're hearing
that outside of the bigger context of how the family lives. It is the
BIGGER context that matters most.
I think people often need to think more about how to set the stage for
being able to live without food restrictions in a happy way, and less
about the specific restrictions. Maybe they'll naturally drop the
restrictions when they no longer make sense to them, when they seem
wrong to inflict in the context of an overall unschooling life.
-pam
Deb Lewis
I have no significant experience with food allergies or allergies of any kind. I get itching bumps if I eat *a lot* of pecans or walnuts and sometimes it's worth itching bumps.<g> Once after I'd eaten pecans and then nursed Dylan he gota couple of tiny hives around his mouth. I suppose I could have decided not to ever let him come near a pecan again but I didn't and he eats pecans when he wants with no problems or symptoms of allergy.
***Also, it sometimes happens that the person wants to eat more and more of the allergic food. It can give a kind of "high" and seem addictive.***
So, if a food makes you feel happy and good it's because you're allergic to it? If it doesn't make you feel bad is there a reason to stop eating it? I thought the point of avoiding allergens was to feel better (or avoid death) but if you already feel better that's bad too? Dang! I wonder if moms ever say this about one of their home cooked meals? If a kid really loved his moms homemade Vegemite Chicken and requested it for dinner all the time would she be as likely to think that was an allergy as she would Mountain Dew or Kraft Mac and Cheese? Or would she think she was a great mom and a great cook? <g>
***So if a child wants to eat only one food and not any others, this may be the exact wrong thing for their body.***
Or a kid may be trying desperately to get what he likes before a mom grumbles about it or takes it away. Or a kid may have a normal, strong, temporary (or long term) preference for that food.
Deb Lewis
"Everything I ever really needed to know I learned from killing smart people and eating their brains."
~Adapted from Robert Fulghum by unknown zombie.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***Also, it sometimes happens that the person wants to eat more and more of the allergic food. It can give a kind of "high" and seem addictive.***
So, if a food makes you feel happy and good it's because you're allergic to it? If it doesn't make you feel bad is there a reason to stop eating it? I thought the point of avoiding allergens was to feel better (or avoid death) but if you already feel better that's bad too? Dang! I wonder if moms ever say this about one of their home cooked meals? If a kid really loved his moms homemade Vegemite Chicken and requested it for dinner all the time would she be as likely to think that was an allergy as she would Mountain Dew or Kraft Mac and Cheese? Or would she think she was a great mom and a great cook? <g>
***So if a child wants to eat only one food and not any others, this may be the exact wrong thing for their body.***
Or a kid may be trying desperately to get what he likes before a mom grumbles about it or takes it away. Or a kid may have a normal, strong, temporary (or long term) preference for that food.
Deb Lewis
"Everything I ever really needed to know I learned from killing smart people and eating their brains."
~Adapted from Robert Fulghum by unknown zombie.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
i read this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/magazine/10psyche-t.html
a few days ago - titled "the americanization of mental illness" - there are a lot of different points in it, but one was the outcome of several studies that showed that the disease model of mental illness actually has the *opposite* of the purported intended effect on the attitudes and and treatment toward those afflicted. the study participants who were led to believe that the complicit partners had a mental illness which was, in their words 'a disease like any other' actually *increased the schock given to the "mentally ill" partner (they weren't really mentally ill) and those that were given the impression that the complicit partner had a mental illness which was a result of childhood trauma, were gentler and kinder in the application of the schocks. at first when i read this, i kept thinking, "yeah, but how would they have shocked a complicit partner who *didn't* say they had a mental illness at all? are they being harsher toward the mentally ill if they have the disease model perspective, or just kinder to those they perceive as suffering from childhood trauma? but the authors go on to say that other studies have supported this outcome, showing that those same people who hold the disease view are the very ones who also believe that the mentally ill are "beyond help", "pariahs", "outcasts"... or at least behave that way in their interactions. the article talks about how cultures that view mental illness as a spiritual affliction, demonic possession, etc., do not exclude afflicted members from their society, they embrace, support and guide. this is a generalization of course, and can be overly romanticized, but the article is interesting and worth considering, because, as sandra says, there are lots of things purported as "truth' or "fact" that are simply ideas or theories. it's possible that the idea or theory that viewing mental illness as a disease will decrease stigma and improve the lives of people with mental illness is not a valid theory, and that the exact opposite is what is actually occurring.
i want to be clear that i am in no way implying that people aren't 'ill" when they have a mental illness, or that medications don't have their very important place, just that the disease model is a uniquely american view and perhaps we can learn something from the perspectives of other cultures, rather than simply exporting our views (the article talks about the changing face of mental illness itself, in other countries, as a result of the americanization of their views!)
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/magazine/10psyche-t.html
a few days ago - titled "the americanization of mental illness" - there are a lot of different points in it, but one was the outcome of several studies that showed that the disease model of mental illness actually has the *opposite* of the purported intended effect on the attitudes and and treatment toward those afflicted. the study participants who were led to believe that the complicit partners had a mental illness which was, in their words 'a disease like any other' actually *increased the schock given to the "mentally ill" partner (they weren't really mentally ill) and those that were given the impression that the complicit partner had a mental illness which was a result of childhood trauma, were gentler and kinder in the application of the schocks. at first when i read this, i kept thinking, "yeah, but how would they have shocked a complicit partner who *didn't* say they had a mental illness at all? are they being harsher toward the mentally ill if they have the disease model perspective, or just kinder to those they perceive as suffering from childhood trauma? but the authors go on to say that other studies have supported this outcome, showing that those same people who hold the disease view are the very ones who also believe that the mentally ill are "beyond help", "pariahs", "outcasts"... or at least behave that way in their interactions. the article talks about how cultures that view mental illness as a spiritual affliction, demonic possession, etc., do not exclude afflicted members from their society, they embrace, support and guide. this is a generalization of course, and can be overly romanticized, but the article is interesting and worth considering, because, as sandra says, there are lots of things purported as "truth' or "fact" that are simply ideas or theories. it's possible that the idea or theory that viewing mental illness as a disease will decrease stigma and improve the lives of people with mental illness is not a valid theory, and that the exact opposite is what is actually occurring.
i want to be clear that i am in no way implying that people aren't 'ill" when they have a mental illness, or that medications don't have their very important place, just that the disease model is a uniquely american view and perhaps we can learn something from the perspectives of other cultures, rather than simply exporting our views (the article talks about the changing face of mental illness itself, in other countries, as a result of the americanization of their views!)
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
My friend Alex came to visit me this summer and wound up adventurous with
food!
http://hannahbearski.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/why-you-can-trust-my-blueberries/
<http://hannahbearski.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/why-you-can-trust-my-blueberries/>We've
got amazing trust, he and I, which is why he's brave about new foods or
eating in loud places with me.
More important than any food *anything* is TRUST.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
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food!
http://hannahbearski.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/why-you-can-trust-my-blueberries/
<http://hannahbearski.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/why-you-can-trust-my-blueberries/>We've
got amazing trust, he and I, which is why he's brave about new foods or
eating in loud places with me.
More important than any food *anything* is TRUST.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
Man, Diana! After seeing your beautiful blog post, I'm wondering why everyone doesn't want what you've got goin' on!
Last night my hubby, son and I were at the store. We were thinking of something to get my daughter who wasn't with us that would just make her day. We got her some of her beloved fiery hot lime Cheetos, that are so hot to me that I don't even like to lick my fingers after picking one up. <g> When we came home, she just happened to ask or "a big cup of sugar," I think as a joke. When I heard that, I ran and filled a big cup with Cheetos and brought them in. It was a most excellent, fun game as she wondered what was really in the huge cup I had. When she saw, she was so excited and grateful and happy. That moment was so fun!
I could be so caught up in the badness of Cheetos and trying to keep she and her love apart <g>, but it was soooo much more fun to surprise her with them. It made everyone happy.
Joanna
Last night my hubby, son and I were at the store. We were thinking of something to get my daughter who wasn't with us that would just make her day. We got her some of her beloved fiery hot lime Cheetos, that are so hot to me that I don't even like to lick my fingers after picking one up. <g> When we came home, she just happened to ask or "a big cup of sugar," I think as a joke. When I heard that, I ran and filled a big cup with Cheetos and brought them in. It was a most excellent, fun game as she wondered what was really in the huge cup I had. When she saw, she was so excited and grateful and happy. That moment was so fun!
I could be so caught up in the badness of Cheetos and trying to keep she and her love apart <g>, but it was soooo much more fun to surprise her with them. It made everyone happy.
Joanna
--- In [email protected], diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
>
> My friend Alex came to visit me this summer and wound up adventurous with
> food!
> http://hannahbearski.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/why-you-can-trust-my-blueberries/
Jenny Cyphers
***...but it always always involves thinking in terms of
supporting that child - not thinking in limited ways about that child.***
This is IT for me! This idea of thinking beyond limiting. Saying "yes" and finding ways to make the seemingly impossible happen. If the parents are stuck on saying "no" and finding ways and reasons to limit the world, the kids will do that too. I really want my kids to know and feel deeply that they can do anything, or at least consider doing anything. It's not that I have lofty goals for them or they for themselves, it's that openness and willingness to find ways to make things happen that really makes unschooling sparkle!
It's disheartening to me to see children saying and believing that they can't do something because they've never had the opportunity to look around the problem to find a way to see that just maybe they CAN.
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supporting that child - not thinking in limited ways about that child.***
This is IT for me! This idea of thinking beyond limiting. Saying "yes" and finding ways to make the seemingly impossible happen. If the parents are stuck on saying "no" and finding ways and reasons to limit the world, the kids will do that too. I really want my kids to know and feel deeply that they can do anything, or at least consider doing anything. It's not that I have lofty goals for them or they for themselves, it's that openness and willingness to find ways to make things happen that really makes unschooling sparkle!
It's disheartening to me to see children saying and believing that they can't do something because they've never had the opportunity to look around the problem to find a way to see that just maybe they CAN.
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