Why unschooling is better than schooling
Joyce Fetteroll
Most new comers to unschooling end up being attacked with the
supposed superiority of school as though it were the ideal
homeschoolers need to reach. There are loads of reasons why
unschooling is better but most aren't understandable to the school
crowd.
But there are some! I think a hundred years from now the sensible
people helping their kids explore could be the ones putting the
school crowd on the offensive, asking how in the world their kid will
do such and such locked up in a classroom ;-)
Here's a few I came up with.
I want my child to live and learn in the world not locked in a room
reading about it. (Though that might look disingenuous if an
unschooler's child spends hours and hours reading in her room or
watching TV or playing video games!)
How will your child be able to fully explore her interests if a big
chunk of her day is spent working on what others tell her to do?
I want my child to be able to seek out answers while the questions
are burning inside her and dig as deep as her interest allows.
I want my child to form friendships based around interests as adults
do rather than limited to age.
I want my child to learn from a wide range of people from many walks
of life, not just one expert a year.
Joyce
supposed superiority of school as though it were the ideal
homeschoolers need to reach. There are loads of reasons why
unschooling is better but most aren't understandable to the school
crowd.
But there are some! I think a hundred years from now the sensible
people helping their kids explore could be the ones putting the
school crowd on the offensive, asking how in the world their kid will
do such and such locked up in a classroom ;-)
Here's a few I came up with.
I want my child to live and learn in the world not locked in a room
reading about it. (Though that might look disingenuous if an
unschooler's child spends hours and hours reading in her room or
watching TV or playing video games!)
How will your child be able to fully explore her interests if a big
chunk of her day is spent working on what others tell her to do?
I want my child to be able to seek out answers while the questions
are burning inside her and dig as deep as her interest allows.
I want my child to form friendships based around interests as adults
do rather than limited to age.
I want my child to learn from a wide range of people from many walks
of life, not just one expert a year.
Joyce
Heather
Meeting more unschooled kids could help someone understand. Since there
are so many homeschooled kids in our area, and so many people have met
them, and experienced the difference that it makes, there seems to be
generally a positive attitude in the area about homeschooling. Perhaps
the difference beteween unschooled and school at home will at one point
become clear in that way- just because there are so many of us and we
make an impression, personally.
A new charter high school opened in our area lately, and many unschooled
and homschooled teens decided to try it. The difference between those
kids and the ones coming from public school was enormous, in terms of
interest and behavior, and the teachers and staff often remarked on it.
The community college really likes having the homeschooled teens attend
classes, and they are generally perceived as being delightful wherever
they go, and are given opportunities.
Heather (in NY)
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
are so many homeschooled kids in our area, and so many people have met
them, and experienced the difference that it makes, there seems to be
generally a positive attitude in the area about homeschooling. Perhaps
the difference beteween unschooled and school at home will at one point
become clear in that way- just because there are so many of us and we
make an impression, personally.
A new charter high school opened in our area lately, and many unschooled
and homschooled teens decided to try it. The difference between those
kids and the ones coming from public school was enormous, in terms of
interest and behavior, and the teachers and staff often remarked on it.
The community college really likes having the homeschooled teens attend
classes, and they are generally perceived as being delightful wherever
they go, and are given opportunities.
Heather (in NY)
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
>
>
> There are loads of reasons why
> unschooling is better but most aren't understandable to the school
> crowd.
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I want my child to live and learn in the world not locked in a room
reading about it.-=-
When Kirby was little, my friend Jay was concerned about the
limitations of homeschooling. He never had children. His sister did,
though, and so he had a niece about Kirby's age or a little older.
This conversation took place in about 1991.
Jay said that schools were changing and they weren't so bad, and that
in his niece's school they had a little store, and that the kids
earned credits and could buy things in that store. I think it had
things like candy, but also little toys that kids had brought to
donate, or some such. I listened to his whole story, waiting for the
really good part. He said it helped them learn about money and math,
because of what they could afford and what would be left.
I said there was a Circle K right around the corner and my kids went
there with real money and bought real things. (Circle K was a
convenience store associated with a filling station.)
Jay hadn't thought of that. He seemed immediately surprised and
impressed and then thoughtful.
The reason a store was a good idea at his niece's school is that those
kids were locked away from access to real stores. If one of my kids
said "I have some money; will you take me to Target?" we could have
gone. Or ToysRUs or wherever they wanted to go. On a Tuesday.
During "school hours."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reading about it.-=-
When Kirby was little, my friend Jay was concerned about the
limitations of homeschooling. He never had children. His sister did,
though, and so he had a niece about Kirby's age or a little older.
This conversation took place in about 1991.
Jay said that schools were changing and they weren't so bad, and that
in his niece's school they had a little store, and that the kids
earned credits and could buy things in that store. I think it had
things like candy, but also little toys that kids had brought to
donate, or some such. I listened to his whole story, waiting for the
really good part. He said it helped them learn about money and math,
because of what they could afford and what would be left.
I said there was a Circle K right around the corner and my kids went
there with real money and bought real things. (Circle K was a
convenience store associated with a filling station.)
Jay hadn't thought of that. He seemed immediately surprised and
impressed and then thoughtful.
The reason a store was a good idea at his niece's school is that those
kids were locked away from access to real stores. If one of my kids
said "I have some money; will you take me to Target?" we could have
gone. Or ToysRUs or wherever they wanted to go. On a Tuesday.
During "school hours."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/13/2010 10:36 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
parent/kid workshops. One was called, "Math Through Literature." RIGHT
up my alley, I thought.
They had us sign out for a baggie of fake money - cardboard coins and
paper play money bills.
Then the teacher read a book, slowly, while the parents and kids counted
out the amounts of money mentioned in the book - Pigs will be Pigs: Fun
with Math and Money - was one I remember the title of. It was
frustrating because the paper bills and the cardboard coins were hard to
handle and hard to read the amounts on them. The parents did it for the
kids. Most of the kids were bored and some seemed happy (some kids will
always "make the best of it").
It was torture for me - I just wanted to pull out my wallet and use my
own real money, but I felt like that was not allowed.
THEN came the clincher. After the workshop was over we were invited to
put down a deposit and take the baggie of fake money with us so that we
could work with it more at home. And nobody laughed. The parents lined
up and plunked down their $5 deposit and walked off with a baggie full
of badly made fake coins and bills.
-pam
> Jay said that schools were changing and they weren't so bad, and thatWhen we first started homeschooling we were in a program that offered
> in his niece's school they had a little store, and that the kids
> earned credits and could buy things in that store.
parent/kid workshops. One was called, "Math Through Literature." RIGHT
up my alley, I thought.
They had us sign out for a baggie of fake money - cardboard coins and
paper play money bills.
Then the teacher read a book, slowly, while the parents and kids counted
out the amounts of money mentioned in the book - Pigs will be Pigs: Fun
with Math and Money - was one I remember the title of. It was
frustrating because the paper bills and the cardboard coins were hard to
handle and hard to read the amounts on them. The parents did it for the
kids. Most of the kids were bored and some seemed happy (some kids will
always "make the best of it").
It was torture for me - I just wanted to pull out my wallet and use my
own real money, but I felt like that was not allowed.
THEN came the clincher. After the workshop was over we were invited to
put down a deposit and take the baggie of fake money with us so that we
could work with it more at home. And nobody laughed. The parents lined
up and plunked down their $5 deposit and walked off with a baggie full
of badly made fake coins and bills.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
At the educational supply store near us, a bag of fake plastic pennies
was more expensive than real pennies, by quite a bit. We were in
there to buy fake money for some reason one day, and the pennies were
a very bad deal, so we got the fake 50cent pieces which seemed like a
better deal. <g> (I think it was for a pirate treasure or something.)
Sandra
was more expensive than real pennies, by quite a bit. We were in
there to buy fake money for some reason one day, and the pennies were
a very bad deal, so we got the fake 50cent pieces which seemed like a
better deal. <g> (I think it was for a pirate treasure or something.)
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/13/2010 11:05 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
treasure once. We tossed it into the sand at a playground and the kids
got to dig for gold. We were still sometimes finding little bits of
"gold treasure" at that playground for maybe a year after that. I
imagine that a LOT of kids had some fun with it.
-pam
> We were inI spray-painted aquarium gravel with gold spray paint to make gold
> there to buy fake money for some reason one day, and the pennies were
> a very bad deal, so we got the fake 50cent pieces which seemed like a
> better deal.<g> (I think it was for a pirate treasure or something.)
>
treasure once. We tossed it into the sand at a playground and the kids
got to dig for gold. We were still sometimes finding little bits of
"gold treasure" at that playground for maybe a year after that. I
imagine that a LOT of kids had some fun with it.
-pam
Marina DeLuca-Howard
How about chocolate covered coins...ARR, they make great treasure, maties!
Marina
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bea
We're from Europe and have a bunch of now outdated European coins (Francs and Deutch Marks, etc.) as well as coins left over from whennwe traveled to other places: makes great "fake money", and is good for discussing history and geography too ;-)
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> At the educational supply store near us, a bag of fake plastic pennies
> was more expensive than real pennies, by quite a bit. We were in
> there to buy fake money for some reason one day, and the pennies were
> a very bad deal, so we got the fake 50cent pieces which seemed like a
> better deal. <g> (I think it was for a pirate treasure or something.)
>
> Sandra
>
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
It seems to me that, with the boom in online education, the quantum leap in mobile technology in the past few years, the growing popularity of social networking and informal learning, the whole world is gradually turning into a learn anything anywhere anytime anyhow kind of place and the practice of herding children into a designated physical location in order to 'educate' them is turning into the dumbest idea on the planet. I believe ten years from now - or sooner - that will be obvious to everybody whether they like it or not.
Bob
>It may not take a hundred years (I assume you meant "defensive"?). Everything I read tells me the school classroom is already under siege from the ongoing effects of the "digital revolution".
> Most new comers to unschooling end up being attacked with the
> supposed superiority of school as though it were the ideal
> homeschoolers need to reach. There are loads of reasons why
> unschooling is better but most aren't understandable to the school
> crowd.
>
> But there are some! I think a hundred years from now the sensible
> people helping their kids explore could be the ones putting the
> school crowd on the offensive, asking how in the world their kid will
> do such and such locked up in a classroom ;-)
>
>
It seems to me that, with the boom in online education, the quantum leap in mobile technology in the past few years, the growing popularity of social networking and informal learning, the whole world is gradually turning into a learn anything anywhere anytime anyhow kind of place and the practice of herding children into a designated physical location in order to 'educate' them is turning into the dumbest idea on the planet. I believe ten years from now - or sooner - that will be obvious to everybody whether they like it or not.
Bob
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/13/2010 6:04 PM, Bob Collier wrote:
classroom education stupid, people are locking up kids in institutions
(schools and/or daycare facilities) for longer and longer hours and for
more and more days of the year.
I mean, think about what percentage of children were in full-time
daycare 40 or 50 years ago? What a major change we've seen in just a
generation!!
-pam
> the practice of herding children into a designated physical location in order to 'educate' them is turning into the dumbest idea on the planet. I believe ten years from now - or sooner - that will be obvious to everybody whether they like it or not.And yet ---- at the same time that the information technology is making
>
classroom education stupid, people are locking up kids in institutions
(schools and/or daycare facilities) for longer and longer hours and for
more and more days of the year.
I mean, think about what percentage of children were in full-time
daycare 40 or 50 years ago? What a major change we've seen in just a
generation!!
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-... the practice of herding children into a designated physical
location in order to 'educate' them is turning into the dumbest idea
on the planet. -=-
But it's been known for a long time that school serves a government
babysitting function. It doesn't do it very well, and the hours don't
match work hours, but where will those kids be during the day if
there's not a parent at home? School will outlast its educational
purpose. They'll justify it somehow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
location in order to 'educate' them is turning into the dumbest idea
on the planet. -=-
But it's been known for a long time that school serves a government
babysitting function. It doesn't do it very well, and the hours don't
match work hours, but where will those kids be during the day if
there's not a parent at home? School will outlast its educational
purpose. They'll justify it somehow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
>AND people, so misguided, thinking that they NEED this preschool for socialization. Not just the few mornings a week, often with a parent, that used to exist primarily for fun and making friends, but 5 days a week for learning, socialization and "consistency." Ahhhh!
> And yet ---- at the same time that the information technology is making
> classroom education stupid, people are locking up kids in institutions
> (schools and/or daycare facilities) for longer and longer hours and for
> more and more days of the year.
>
> I mean, think about what percentage of children were in full-time
> daycare 40 or 50 years ago? What a major change we've seen in just a
> generation!!
>
> -pam
>
Joanna
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Bob
>Yes, I'm sure defenders of the school system will be working very hard well into the future to justify its continued existence. And I think the argument from their side will indeed end up being all about cultural habits (aka tradition) and social convenience and not about education at all. Perhaps that will be obvious to everybody too and school will at least lose its arbitrary and increasingly undeserved status as the method of education against which other forms of 'education' are to be judged. The fascinating thing for me in what's happening to schools now is that they're not up against so called alternative ways of educating our children, they're up against how most people - children and adults - live their everyday lives outside of the school classroom.
> -=-... the practice of herding children into a designated physical
> location in order to 'educate' them is turning into the dumbest idea
> on the planet. -=-
>
> But it's been known for a long time that school serves a government
> babysitting function. It doesn't do it very well, and the hours don't
> match work hours, but where will those kids be during the day if
> there's not a parent at home? School will outlast its educational
> purpose. They'll justify it somehow.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Bob
Jenny Cyphers
***Perhaps that will be obvious to everybody too and school will at least lose its arbitrary and increasingly undeserved status as the method of education against which other forms of 'education' are to be judged.***
I don't know about that. Most parents can't even conceive of the idea that school is arbitrary. Most people think and believe with all of their being that it IS necessary, and public school is IT. There are a lot of choices where we live, alternative public schools and a few charters here and there, but most parents won't even consider those as options. There is only ONE way to get an education and only ONE way to prove that you have one, public school and diploma. Most parents will ignore the negatives, even if their child is suffering and barely passing and put the blame on the child, not on the system.
I like your optimism though! I think that until there are REAL alternatives that are considered REAL choices by parents, the system isn't going to change in any real way. It's a big slow moving beast. If anyone's seen the movie Howl's Moving Castle, I get the image in my head of Howl after he spent time fighting the bad guys and was full of gross yucky thoughts and he was oozing and moving slowly dropping his yucky ooze as he went. That's how I see the beast of public school, this slow moving beast full of negative yucky oozing, and deep inside the beast there is good buried.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't know about that. Most parents can't even conceive of the idea that school is arbitrary. Most people think and believe with all of their being that it IS necessary, and public school is IT. There are a lot of choices where we live, alternative public schools and a few charters here and there, but most parents won't even consider those as options. There is only ONE way to get an education and only ONE way to prove that you have one, public school and diploma. Most parents will ignore the negatives, even if their child is suffering and barely passing and put the blame on the child, not on the system.
I like your optimism though! I think that until there are REAL alternatives that are considered REAL choices by parents, the system isn't going to change in any real way. It's a big slow moving beast. If anyone's seen the movie Howl's Moving Castle, I get the image in my head of Howl after he spent time fighting the bad guys and was full of gross yucky thoughts and he was oozing and moving slowly dropping his yucky ooze as he went. That's how I see the beast of public school, this slow moving beast full of negative yucky oozing, and deep inside the beast there is good buried.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lilyfoil
I think it's absolutely true about the govt babysitting function of school -- that's why kindergarten is no longer half day here, I am certain of it. But still, for people who have to work, it's one of the few things the govt does to help with raising children (I am not saying this as a defense of the school system, believe me, I just think it is and will continue to be part of the staying power of school).
Elizabeth
Elizabeth
Joanna
--- In [email protected], "lilyfoil" <seafaces@...> wrote:
Joanna
>I had a good friend who was a kindergarten teacher, and when asked about the full day thing (before my kids were school age) she would just roll her eyes, sigh, and explain how it was all about government funded day care. The teachers all knew it and would work on coming up with management strategies for the kids who were all sick of being in class, being with each other, and not being home with mom. They never planned anything good to do after lunch time.
> I think it's absolutely true about the govt babysitting function of school -- that's why kindergarten is no longer half day here, I am certain of it. But still, for people who have to work, it's one of the few things the govt does to help with raising children (I am not saying this as a defense of the school system, believe me, I just think it is and will continue to be part of the staying power of school).
>
> Elizabeth
>
Joanna
clara_bellar
My friend just posted something about the benefits of schooling on another group
of mine (attachment parenting). She's very smart and her arguments are
more sophisticated than the common ones. Being the mother of an 18 months old,
I'm still early in my unschooling reflexion. (though we're 99,99% sure that's
what we want to do!) Having read Gatto & Holt and having many unschooling
friends, I have my answers. Still I'd love some feedback, as I enjoy every
opportunity to tune up my unschooling reflexion and there's nothing better than
a good devil's advocate to challenge one's assumptions :)
Thanks,
Clara
PS. I already posted an answer to her post, it's at the bottom.
Re: Unschooling or schooling
It's funny, I guess school experiences vary a lot. I don't feel that school
made me competitive at all. I guess my school did a really good job of
making it about your own learning. But I went to a small private K-12
school in Kentucky, so that could be miles different from things elsewhere.
Private school in LA gives me the willies, for the most part, b/c of how
wealthy & entitled you can imagine kids being (my bias but I do think it's
probably more true here, given the sheer amount of wealth). Obviously very
alternative private schools would be different, but still out of reach for
us financially + I like the idea of the diversity in public schools.
Pressure to conform exists in any peer group & certainly in schools. I
didn't feel pressure to conform so much as I felt outside of the main social
group -- I was young for my grade & in a grade that happened to be 2/3 boys,
and I was a financial aid kid in a private school, and with 50 kids in my
entire grade it was a pretty tiny social setting. But I did have my own
friends at various stages, and especially a good group of friends by high
school who, we realized at some point, were all financial aid kids.
Actually to me one of the real benefits of a public school is that you have
a larger number & wider range of kids, so in my mind it might be easier to
find a group where you fit, just like we all eventually do in life. And I
know we've talked about this, but I do think kids have to go through the
process of figuring out how much they do/don't want to conform, and make
mistakes & learn from them, in order to become adults. It's developmentally
appropriate to be 10 or 14 or whatever & deciding how to create your
identity, and looking back and feeling lame for having cared about certain
things & wanting to be like/liked by certain people -- it's part of how kids
grow into adults. I guess I can't help but see school as a social world
that's a bit more protected from the world of the parent, that gives kids
some free space to figure out who they are and make dumb adolescent choices
and have peer-influenced interests and navigate relationships w/ each other
and with adults and go through the process of figuring out which things
really matter to them. In spite of the idea that school can be too top-down
& restrictive, I also think it can be a real place of freedom for kids as
well. So for me the goal is to find a school that's as free and child-led
as possible, but nonetheless a school... I completely understand the
concerns that lead parents to want to unschool, but for me it would mean
throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
My answer:
Thank you for this, Sarah! Since I'm doing a documentary on the subject I appreciate any opportunity to be challenged in my reflexion by a good devil's advocate :)
Isn't the diversity a myth about public school? Doesn't the price of real estate in the school's neighborhood determine the parents' social background - and often ethnic background as well? According to Gatto who taught in very rich and very poor neighborhoods of NYC for 30 years, public school is more like a getto than a place that offers diversity. Never mind the lack of diversity in terms of age range, being this artificial place where you're locked up in a classroom with 20 people your own age. It's much richer and healthier for a child to have friends of all ages, and it is more like real life: as adults we are able to form friendships based around interests and affinities rather than limited to age.
You're saying that the negative social aspects of school ("looking back and feeling lame for having cared about certain things & wanting to be like/liked by certain people") are part of how kids grow into adults. So what about societies where there are no schools? And what about our society, before schooling was the norm? Do you think those people who didn't go to high school didn't grow into adults? What about Lincoln, Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, did they not grow up? :) You specifically mention high school years, so I'd like to quote Gatto here:
"Throughout mot of American history, kids generally didn't go to high schoo. Yet the unschooled rose to be admirals, like Farragut; inventors, like Edison; captaisn of industry, like Carnegie and Rockefeller; writers, like Melville and Twain and Conrad; and even scholars, like Margaret Mead. In fact, until pretty recently, people who reached the age of thirteen weren't looked upon as children at all. Ariel Durant, cho co-wrote and enormous and very good multivolume history of the world with her husband Will, was happily married at fifteen."
Another lesson that I have issues with is being taught to wait for other people, better trained than ourselves, to make the meanings of our lives. The expert makes all the essential choices. Only the teacher can determine what his kids must study or rather only the people who pay him can make those decisions, which he then enforces. School is necessary in a society where you need clerks. And more than anything, we don't want our son to learn that he has to obey stupid orders. Much to the contrary, we want to encourage him to question authority whenever things seem to be unfair, absurd or simply stupid.
Here is something Gulu (DH) wanted to add: I like the idea of my son learning what he's passionate about and interested in and going to the bottom of it, and not being interrupted all the time by bells and changing rooms. I want him to be able to seek out answers while the questions are burning inside him and dig as deep as he wants. I went to school myself. I forgot 80% of what I learned in 12 years of schooling. I learned most of the things that are important in my daily life by living and following my curiosity and interests. In school, my curiosity was simply interrupted. I remember being very excited about a history class and I was very frustrated when the bell rang. I had to wait till the next class. Two days later, I started asking all my questions. The teacher answered the first one, the second one... and at the 3rd she told me she'd love to answer all my questions but she had a program to follow and didn't have time. So I got the message and never asked anymore questions - and I lost all my interest in the matter. I could have gone to the library to find out by myself but I didn't have that impulse because she was the expert that was supposed to teach me everything I needed to know.
Today Gulu is a professor at UCLA and all over Europe, and he learned everything he teaches doing autonomous research. Which reminds me of his country's president, Lula, who said, the day he became president: "I've been criticized all my life for not having a degree. The very first diploma I get in my life is that of president of Brazil."
Clara
of mine (attachment parenting). She's very smart and her arguments are
more sophisticated than the common ones. Being the mother of an 18 months old,
I'm still early in my unschooling reflexion. (though we're 99,99% sure that's
what we want to do!) Having read Gatto & Holt and having many unschooling
friends, I have my answers. Still I'd love some feedback, as I enjoy every
opportunity to tune up my unschooling reflexion and there's nothing better than
a good devil's advocate to challenge one's assumptions :)
Thanks,
Clara
PS. I already posted an answer to her post, it's at the bottom.
Re: Unschooling or schooling
It's funny, I guess school experiences vary a lot. I don't feel that school
made me competitive at all. I guess my school did a really good job of
making it about your own learning. But I went to a small private K-12
school in Kentucky, so that could be miles different from things elsewhere.
Private school in LA gives me the willies, for the most part, b/c of how
wealthy & entitled you can imagine kids being (my bias but I do think it's
probably more true here, given the sheer amount of wealth). Obviously very
alternative private schools would be different, but still out of reach for
us financially + I like the idea of the diversity in public schools.
Pressure to conform exists in any peer group & certainly in schools. I
didn't feel pressure to conform so much as I felt outside of the main social
group -- I was young for my grade & in a grade that happened to be 2/3 boys,
and I was a financial aid kid in a private school, and with 50 kids in my
entire grade it was a pretty tiny social setting. But I did have my own
friends at various stages, and especially a good group of friends by high
school who, we realized at some point, were all financial aid kids.
Actually to me one of the real benefits of a public school is that you have
a larger number & wider range of kids, so in my mind it might be easier to
find a group where you fit, just like we all eventually do in life. And I
know we've talked about this, but I do think kids have to go through the
process of figuring out how much they do/don't want to conform, and make
mistakes & learn from them, in order to become adults. It's developmentally
appropriate to be 10 or 14 or whatever & deciding how to create your
identity, and looking back and feeling lame for having cared about certain
things & wanting to be like/liked by certain people -- it's part of how kids
grow into adults. I guess I can't help but see school as a social world
that's a bit more protected from the world of the parent, that gives kids
some free space to figure out who they are and make dumb adolescent choices
and have peer-influenced interests and navigate relationships w/ each other
and with adults and go through the process of figuring out which things
really matter to them. In spite of the idea that school can be too top-down
& restrictive, I also think it can be a real place of freedom for kids as
well. So for me the goal is to find a school that's as free and child-led
as possible, but nonetheless a school... I completely understand the
concerns that lead parents to want to unschool, but for me it would mean
throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
My answer:
Thank you for this, Sarah! Since I'm doing a documentary on the subject I appreciate any opportunity to be challenged in my reflexion by a good devil's advocate :)
Isn't the diversity a myth about public school? Doesn't the price of real estate in the school's neighborhood determine the parents' social background - and often ethnic background as well? According to Gatto who taught in very rich and very poor neighborhoods of NYC for 30 years, public school is more like a getto than a place that offers diversity. Never mind the lack of diversity in terms of age range, being this artificial place where you're locked up in a classroom with 20 people your own age. It's much richer and healthier for a child to have friends of all ages, and it is more like real life: as adults we are able to form friendships based around interests and affinities rather than limited to age.
You're saying that the negative social aspects of school ("looking back and feeling lame for having cared about certain things & wanting to be like/liked by certain people") are part of how kids grow into adults. So what about societies where there are no schools? And what about our society, before schooling was the norm? Do you think those people who didn't go to high school didn't grow into adults? What about Lincoln, Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, did they not grow up? :) You specifically mention high school years, so I'd like to quote Gatto here:
"Throughout mot of American history, kids generally didn't go to high schoo. Yet the unschooled rose to be admirals, like Farragut; inventors, like Edison; captaisn of industry, like Carnegie and Rockefeller; writers, like Melville and Twain and Conrad; and even scholars, like Margaret Mead. In fact, until pretty recently, people who reached the age of thirteen weren't looked upon as children at all. Ariel Durant, cho co-wrote and enormous and very good multivolume history of the world with her husband Will, was happily married at fifteen."
Another lesson that I have issues with is being taught to wait for other people, better trained than ourselves, to make the meanings of our lives. The expert makes all the essential choices. Only the teacher can determine what his kids must study or rather only the people who pay him can make those decisions, which he then enforces. School is necessary in a society where you need clerks. And more than anything, we don't want our son to learn that he has to obey stupid orders. Much to the contrary, we want to encourage him to question authority whenever things seem to be unfair, absurd or simply stupid.
Here is something Gulu (DH) wanted to add: I like the idea of my son learning what he's passionate about and interested in and going to the bottom of it, and not being interrupted all the time by bells and changing rooms. I want him to be able to seek out answers while the questions are burning inside him and dig as deep as he wants. I went to school myself. I forgot 80% of what I learned in 12 years of schooling. I learned most of the things that are important in my daily life by living and following my curiosity and interests. In school, my curiosity was simply interrupted. I remember being very excited about a history class and I was very frustrated when the bell rang. I had to wait till the next class. Two days later, I started asking all my questions. The teacher answered the first one, the second one... and at the 3rd she told me she'd love to answer all my questions but she had a program to follow and didn't have time. So I got the message and never asked anymore questions - and I lost all my interest in the matter. I could have gone to the library to find out by myself but I didn't have that impulse because she was the expert that was supposed to teach me everything I needed to know.
Today Gulu is a professor at UCLA and all over Europe, and he learned everything he teaches doing autonomous research. Which reminds me of his country's president, Lula, who said, the day he became president: "I've been criticized all my life for not having a degree. The very first diploma I get in my life is that of president of Brazil."
Clara
Pam Sorooshian
> Re: Unschooling or schoolingI like the "idea," too. Except, racism and ethnic hostilities are
>
> It's funny, I guess school experiences vary a lot. I don't feel that school
> made me competitive at all. I guess my school did a really good job of
> making it about your own learning. But I went to a small private K-12
> school in Kentucky, so that could be miles different from things elsewhere.
> Private school in LA gives me the willies, for the most part, b/c of how
> wealthy& entitled you can imagine kids being (my bias but I do think it's
> probably more true here, given the sheer amount of wealth). Obviously very
> alternative private schools would be different, but still out of reach for
> us financially + I like the idea of the diversity in public schools.
>
rampant in the public schools. Public schools are breeding grounds for
racism - that's where kids from families like ours, that embrace
diversity and enjoy it (and are, in fact, part of the diversity), are
introduced to it and where they are likely to first experience it
directed at themselves. Does she seriously think all that diversity
exists in a sweet and wonderful atmosphere of mutual respect? Think
again. Some areas have extremely NON-diverse school populations. There
are schools that are nearly entirely Latinos, or Blacks, or Vietnamese,
or whatever. And in those areas where schools have been integrated,
there is great hostility toward those who come into a neighborhood
school from "elsewhere." My own kids interacted with a much more
diverse population as unschoolers than they would have done in our local
public schools. And it was very natural and easy interaction without any
kind of issue being made over it.
> Pressure to conform exists in any peer group& certainly in schools. IThat is pathetic. Groups of friends ended up being based on how much
> didn't feel pressure to conform so much as I felt outside of the main social
> group -- I was young for my grade& in a grade that happened to be 2/3 boys,
> and I was a financial aid kid in a private school, and with 50 kids in my
> entire grade it was a pretty tiny social setting. But I did have my own
> friends at various stages, and especially a good group of friends by high
> school who, we realized at some point, were all financial aid kids.
>
money they have? And that's okay? That's sad. But common.
> Actually to me one of the real benefits of a public school is that you haveUnschooling parents help their kids find a wide range of people to
> a larger number& wider range of kids, so in my mind it might be easier to
> find a group where you fit, just like we all eventually do in life.
interact with and support them in forming friendships, including groups
of friends. They interact with people of all ages, based on common
interests more than simply on proximity. Unschooled kids can spend lots
and lots of time with those friends, and they're not told "We're not
here to socialize." <g> Some kids LIKE having a lot of people around and
their parents can facilitate them being involved in lots of group
activities, to the extent that the kid loves it. Other kids are far less
inclined to enjoy big group activities and would rather spend time with
just a friend or two at a time. Their parents can facilitate that.
> And II can't figure out how that's related to unschooling. Unschooled kids
> know we've talked about this, but I do think kids have to go through the
> process of figuring out how much they do/don't want to conform, and make
> mistakes& learn from them, in order to become adults. It's developmentally
> appropriate to be 10 or 14 or whatever& deciding how to create your
> identity, and looking back and feeling lame for having cared about certain
> things& wanting to be like/liked by certain people -- it's part of how kids
> grow into adults.
don't grow up in social isolation, they also learn to identify and
emulate people they respect, and they make mistakes and learn from them.
The difference is that they aren't stuck in a classroom with the same 30
or so other kids and one adult for so much of their time.
> I guess I can't help but see school as a social worldYeah - she seems to have the idea that unschooling parents control their
> that's a bit more protected from the world of the parent, that gives kids
> some free space to figure out who they are and make dumb adolescent choices
> and have peer-influenced interests and navigate relationships w/ each other
> and with adults and go through the process of figuring out which things
> really matter to them.
kids in some way - prevent them from making choices, having
peer-influenced interests, navigate relationships, etc. She just doesn't
know what an unschooling life really looks like. Our kids are doing all
those things - PLUS they have parents and other adults in their lives
(not just one teacher who is responsible for 30 plus other kids the same
age) who are there to go to for ideas, advice, answers to questions,
feedback, etc.
> In spite of the idea that school can be too top-downAgain - I think she has the idea that our kids are too under our
> & restrictive, I also think it can be a real place of freedom for kids as
> well.
control. She doesn't "get" how unschooling works (compared to regular
homeschooling), so she doesn't realize what kind of freedom and support
for following their own interests and inclinations our kids actually have.
> So for me the goal is to find a school that's as free and child-ledI'm not thrilled with "free and child-led" as a goal. I'd look for a
> as possible, but nonetheless a school... I completely understand the
> concerns that lead parents to want to unschool, but for me it would mean
> throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
>
place that supported each individual child's interests to the maximum
extent possible and that didn't coerce the child to do things he or she
didn't have any interest in doing. There are no public schools like
that. There are a handful of "free " or "democratic" schools around the
world. They sound cool, but I wouldn't want to send my kids away from
our family to attend one. They'd be better than conventional classroom
education, but not nearly as cool and fun as unschooling as a family.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-My own kids interacted with a much more
diverse population as unschoolers than they would have done in our local
public schools. And it was very natural and easy interaction without any
kind of issue being made over it.-=-
I'm not so sure about the local school in Albuquerque, as to ethnic
spread. I grew up in a town in which the school spread was 70%
Hispanic, 30% Anglo and 30% Native American (Santa Clara and San Juan
Pueblos, mostly). Holly has expressed regret that she didn't know so
many different kinds of people.
Still, it's just a thing. "White kids" being a minority is fairly
rare, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diverse population as unschoolers than they would have done in our local
public schools. And it was very natural and easy interaction without any
kind of issue being made over it.-=-
I'm not so sure about the local school in Albuquerque, as to ethnic
spread. I grew up in a town in which the school spread was 70%
Hispanic, 30% Anglo and 30% Native American (Santa Clara and San Juan
Pueblos, mostly). Holly has expressed regret that she didn't know so
many different kinds of people.
Still, it's just a thing. "White kids" being a minority is fairly
rare, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
> > And IThere are so many problems with this person's arguments that I don't honestly know where to start, but one thing I would say is that everything she says comes from the perspective of someone who has been highly influenced by how she was raised, and her thoughts seem pretty unprocessed to me in relation to homeschooling and even child rearing. She seems like a young parent who's thoughts are all theoretical.
> > know we've talked about this, but I do think kids have to go through the
> > process of figuring out how much they do/don't want to conform, and make
> > mistakes& learn from them, in order to become adults. It's developmentally
> > appropriate to be 10 or 14 or whatever& deciding how to create your
> > identity, and looking back and feeling lame for having cared about certain
> > things& wanting to be like/liked by certain people -- it's part of how kids
> > grow into adults.
> I can't figure out how that's related to unschooling. Unschooled kids
> don't grow up in social isolation, they also learn to identify and
> emulate people they respect, and they make mistakes and learn from them.
> The difference is that they aren't stuck in a classroom with the same 30
> or so other kids and one adult for so much of their time.
This quote is a perfect example. Pam's observation that she seems to think that unschooled kids grow up in isolation is odd. It's also illogical to think that if behaviors are developmentally appropriate and/or necessary going or not going to school should have any significant impact on the process. This shows her schooled mind in action--and is yet another wrinkle in the, "Don't they need to be socialized?" question.
Joanna
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
That's my view anyway. :-)
Bob
>I don't think there will be any fighting to do. Today's traditionalist parents will be displaced over time by digital native parents to whom better options than school will be smack in the face obvious.
> ***Perhaps that will be obvious to everybody too and school will at least lose its arbitrary and increasingly undeserved status as the method of education against which other forms of 'education' are to be judged.***
>
>
> I don't know about that.� Most parents can't even conceive of the idea that school is arbitrary.� Most people think and believe with all of their being that it IS necessary, and public school is IT.� There are a lot of choices where we live, alternative public schools and a few charters here and there, but most parents won't even consider those as options.� There is only ONE way to get an education and only ONE way to prove that you have one, public school and diploma.� Most parents will ignore the negatives, even if their child is suffering and barely passing and put the blame on the child, not on the system.
>
> I like your optimism though!� I think that until there are REAL alternatives that are considered REAL choices by parents, the system isn't going to change in any real way.� It's a big slow moving beast.� If anyone's seen the movie Howl's Moving Castle, I get the image in my head of Howl after he spent time fighting the bad guys and was full of gross yucky thoughts and he was oozing and moving slowly dropping his yucky ooze as he went.��That's how I see the beast of public school, this slow moving beast full of negative yucky oozing, and deep inside the beast there is good buried.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
That's my view anyway. :-)
Bob
Ed Wendell
When our son was in school he was the only white student in his class - there was one Hispanic - the rest was African American. My class this year has one girl that is half Korean (mom is from Korea) and half white and the rest are African American. There are maybe 6 white students in the whole school with a few Hispanics and a few Africans (meaning that their parents are from Africa) and the rest are African Americans. For a while we had one Native American - her grandmother is our secretary.
99% of my school is on free lunch. Every school in the district (and I think there are 35-40 of them) except one other Montessori School are title one schools - meaning that the whole didtrict is low income.
So going the other extreme direction my son really was not exposed to a variety of ethnic groups while in school - 95-99% African American. And those were inner city, low income so no variety in socio economic either.
One could never be exposed to the whole range of combinations of people - with-in the USA even:
ethnic; socio economic; country folks / city folks / suburbanites; regions of the state and country even come into play.
School would just be a microcosm of the neighborhood you live in - unless you opt for private school and then it could be outside your immediate neighborhood but within driving distance - unless of course you send your child to boarding school ;) My son attended a Public Montessori School (where I teach) - meaning he went out of the neighborhood to attend. So sometimes there are options but not usually I don't think. I know the public suburban schools around here have no options except the neighborhood school - where you attend depends upon where you live.
Lisa W.
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99% of my school is on free lunch. Every school in the district (and I think there are 35-40 of them) except one other Montessori School are title one schools - meaning that the whole didtrict is low income.
So going the other extreme direction my son really was not exposed to a variety of ethnic groups while in school - 95-99% African American. And those were inner city, low income so no variety in socio economic either.
One could never be exposed to the whole range of combinations of people - with-in the USA even:
ethnic; socio economic; country folks / city folks / suburbanites; regions of the state and country even come into play.
School would just be a microcosm of the neighborhood you live in - unless you opt for private school and then it could be outside your immediate neighborhood but within driving distance - unless of course you send your child to boarding school ;) My son attended a Public Montessori School (where I teach) - meaning he went out of the neighborhood to attend. So sometimes there are options but not usually I don't think. I know the public suburban schools around here have no options except the neighborhood school - where you attend depends upon where you live.
Lisa W.
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Ed Wendell
So how will the people that work at the grocery store, McDonalds, doctor's office, hotel staff, telephone support, trash collector, etc. for instance go to work? (trying to think of where all the parents of my students work) What will they do with their kids while at work ? Most are single mothers - never been married with 2-5 kids.
Wondering what your thoughts are on this ? And how far into the future are you thinking? Or are you thinking that schools and daycares will slowly evolve into some type of community learning center? Would kids still go there while parents are at work but it would be more open learning?
Lisa
Wondering what your thoughts are on this ? And how far into the future are you thinking? Or are you thinking that schools and daycares will slowly evolve into some type of community learning center? Would kids still go there while parents are at work but it would be more open learning?
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collier
I don't think there will be any fighting to do. Today's traditionalist parents will be displaced over time by digital native parents to whom better options than school will be smack in the face obvious.
That's my view anyway. :-)
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Still, it's just a thing. "White kids" being a minority is fairly
rare, I think.***
At least in North America and Europe and Australia! I imagine other places identify minority by other things than skin color, like what language they speak, or what religion they practice, or where their families come from.
My mom grew up in "white" L.A., CA. In the 60's she was bussed to a different neighborhoood school. Very on topic for today, I think! Her best friend lived across the street from her and continued going to school at the same place she'd always gone to school. For my mom, that didn't create diversity, it created resentment from being moved away from her best friend and thrust into a school with different kids she didn't know in a neighborhood far away.
The MAIN reason that Chamille, 15, has continuously decided not to go to school is because she sees how mean kids are to each other in school. Kids in school ARE mean to each other, kids get their things stolen from them, kids are bullied and lied to by each other and the teachers. The only way kids survive that is by creating a little group of friends for themselves. That doesn't really allow for much diversity! She doesn't see that forcing herself to deal with that would be fun or healthy, so why would she subject herself to it? I think many kids wouldn't if given the choice and without choice, kids aren't really free are they?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rare, I think.***
At least in North America and Europe and Australia! I imagine other places identify minority by other things than skin color, like what language they speak, or what religion they practice, or where their families come from.
My mom grew up in "white" L.A., CA. In the 60's she was bussed to a different neighborhoood school. Very on topic for today, I think! Her best friend lived across the street from her and continued going to school at the same place she'd always gone to school. For my mom, that didn't create diversity, it created resentment from being moved away from her best friend and thrust into a school with different kids she didn't know in a neighborhood far away.
The MAIN reason that Chamille, 15, has continuously decided not to go to school is because she sees how mean kids are to each other in school. Kids in school ARE mean to each other, kids get their things stolen from them, kids are bullied and lied to by each other and the teachers. The only way kids survive that is by creating a little group of friends for themselves. That doesn't really allow for much diversity! She doesn't see that forcing herself to deal with that would be fun or healthy, so why would she subject herself to it? I think many kids wouldn't if given the choice and without choice, kids aren't really free are they?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I don't think there will be any fighting to do. Today's traditionalist parents will be displaced over time by digital native parents to whom better options than school will be smack in the face obvious.***
Well that is certainly happening with my daughter and her friends already. You even see the bias in homework assignments where the teachers say specifically that the kids aren't allowed to use the internet for a project, that they must use books from the library. Most kids will go straight online for information. And why shouldn't they? I love that books are becoming digital, although not everyone likes that. It's something I LOVE about Sandra's book, it's digital turned book, the original format is online, it's backwards from the traditional!
Wikipedia is like a beautiful world classroom where people can weigh in and discuss and change and create meanings and definitions for the whole world around us!
Ahhhh optimism is catching!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well that is certainly happening with my daughter and her friends already. You even see the bias in homework assignments where the teachers say specifically that the kids aren't allowed to use the internet for a project, that they must use books from the library. Most kids will go straight online for information. And why shouldn't they? I love that books are becoming digital, although not everyone likes that. It's something I LOVE about Sandra's book, it's digital turned book, the original format is online, it's backwards from the traditional!
Wikipedia is like a beautiful world classroom where people can weigh in and discuss and change and create meanings and definitions for the whole world around us!
Ahhhh optimism is catching!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It's something I LOVE about Sandra's book, it's digital turned
book, the original format is online, it's backwards from the
traditional!-=-
I was looking at that book, and noticing how different it is than I
expected it to be. I thought it would be mostly quotes from pages,
but it's mostly new writing. Some of the pages are sort of poetic
distillations of longer collections of writing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
book, the original format is online, it's backwards from the
traditional!-=-
I was looking at that book, and noticing how different it is than I
expected it to be. I thought it would be mostly quotes from pages,
but it's mostly new writing. Some of the pages are sort of poetic
distillations of longer collections of writing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
At the moment, children of "school age" register as a student at a particular school and are required to attend classes at that school. However, in the digital age, attending classes in a designated physical location is a preference not a necessity. Each student at a school could have an "Individual Education Plan" that included the best use of mobile virtual learning as it related to that student's personal lifestyle - and that of his or her parents or caregivers. Each student would be like an affiliate of a specific school. Registered at it but not required to be there physically. Nothing would change as far as what the school expected of its students - curriculum, etc. - but they could be part-time in the classroom being taught and part-time at home using the internet, as it suited each particular family. Home when the parent or caregiver is home, in school when the parent or caregiver is at work. The IEPs could all be negotiated to a sophisticated level with the right attitude, I'm sure. Okay, it would take a lot of imagination from a lot of people who might not have much, but, if I was President, it's what I would be pushing for ahead of bringing mobile virtual learning technology into the classroom and trapping it there, which is what many schoolists seem to be obsessed with at the moment. That's only going to make them look even more stupid than they look already (to me anyway).
Where I live, my local high school closed three years ago and is being resurrected as a K-20 "community school" (about twice the size of the original) due to be completed next year. The idea is for it to be not just somewhere children go to every day but a facility anybody can use. I'll be interested to see what's on offer. Perhaps there will be something I can make use of, for myself and my son, but I suspect from what I've read that it will be mostly classrooms and teachers and interactive whiteboards. And a laptop on every desk. D'oh.
Anyway, I could probably go on about that for hours. My apologies for talking so much about school here. I get a lot of information on the subject because of my newsletter (some of which is useful ammunition in the schooling vs. unschooling debate), but in my everyday life with my son we never think about it.
Bob
Where I live, my local high school closed three years ago and is being resurrected as a K-20 "community school" (about twice the size of the original) due to be completed next year. The idea is for it to be not just somewhere children go to every day but a facility anybody can use. I'll be interested to see what's on offer. Perhaps there will be something I can make use of, for myself and my son, but I suspect from what I've read that it will be mostly classrooms and teachers and interactive whiteboards. And a laptop on every desk. D'oh.
Anyway, I could probably go on about that for hours. My apologies for talking so much about school here. I get a lot of information on the subject because of my newsletter (some of which is useful ammunition in the schooling vs. unschooling debate), but in my everyday life with my son we never think about it.
Bob
--- In [email protected], "Ed Wendell" <ewendell@...> wrote:
>
> So how will the people that work at the grocery store, McDonalds, doctor's office, hotel staff, telephone support, trash collector, etc. for instance go to work? (trying to think of where all the parents of my students work) What will they do with their kids while at work ? Most are single mothers - never been married with 2-5 kids.
>
> Wondering what your thoughts are on this ? And how far into the future are you thinking? Or are you thinking that schools and daycares will slowly evolve into some type of community learning center? Would kids still go there while parents are at work but it would be more open learning?
>
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Collier
>
> I don't think there will be any fighting to do. Today's traditionalist parents will be displaced over time by digital native parents to whom better options than school will be smack in the face obvious.
>
> That's my view anyway. :-)
>
> Bob
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Where I live, my local high school closed three years ago and is being
resurrected as a K-20 "community school" (about twice the size of the
original) due to be completed next year. The idea is for it to be not
just somewhere children go to every day but a facility anybody can
use. I'll be interested to see what's on offer. Perhaps there will be
something I can make use of, for myself and my son, but I suspect from
what I've read that it will be mostly classrooms and teachers and
interactive whiteboards. And a laptop on every desk. D'oh.-=
I've heard such things talked about for years, but didn't know it was
happening. Cool! I hope they can pull it off.
(By "the high school closed" I'm guessing you mean those kids were
required to go to the next nearest high school?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Where I live, my local high school closed three years ago and is being
resurrected as a K-20 "community school" (about twice the size of the
original) due to be completed next year. The idea is for it to be not
just somewhere children go to every day but a facility anybody can
use. I'll be interested to see what's on offer. Perhaps there will be
something I can make use of, for myself and my son, but I suspect from
what I've read that it will be mostly classrooms and teachers and
interactive whiteboards. And a laptop on every desk. D'oh.-=
I've heard such things talked about for years, but didn't know it was
happening. Cool! I hope they can pull it off.
(By "the high school closed" I'm guessing you mean those kids were
required to go to the next nearest high school?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>Perhaps it will be "the thin end of the wedge" for a genuine rethink about the best ways to educate children in the 21st century. That would be good.
> -=-
> Where I live, my local high school closed three years ago and is being
> resurrected as a K-20 "community school" (about twice the size of the
> original) due to be completed next year. The idea is for it to be not
> just somewhere children go to every day but a facility anybody can
> use. I'll be interested to see what's on offer. Perhaps there will be
> something I can make use of, for myself and my son, but I suspect from
> what I've read that it will be mostly classrooms and teachers and
> interactive whiteboards. And a laptop on every desk. D'oh.-=
>
> I've heard such things talked about for years, but didn't know it was
> happening. Cool! I hope they can pull it off.
>Yes. Presumably, when the school is ready former local students will return.
> (By "the high school closed" I'm guessing you mean those kids were
> required to go to the next nearest high school?)
>
>