Unschooling principles and special circumstances (long)
thecugals
"There was quite a bit of telling children what to eat..."--Pam
This is probably the issue I struggle with the most, and I was wondering how far this or any other unschooling principle works with special needs kids. Here's my story:
My husband and I don't drink soda, so we never had it in the house. The kiddos like it, so they would order it when we ate out at restaurants or at fast food joints. I was OK with that. Then my son (now 12) asked if we could buy it at the supermarket and have it in the house. So we started buying a 2-liter bottle each week, the kiddos would have it when they wanted it (usually with dinner), and when we ran out they would have something else until we went shopping again. Then ds asked if we could buy more soda so that we wouldn't run out during the week. So we did. Then kiddos started asking to drink soda during lunch, too. OK. Then it was several glasses of soda during meals for ds, plus more whenever he felt thirsty. Nowadays soda is all he drinks (really), and that was too much for me. Today he wanted a third glass during lunch, and I told him he might want to slow down because we were almost out. He said we could go to the store and get more, and I said I didn't want to do that because I bought plenty of soda to get us through the week, and if we're running out, it means we're drinking too much soda.....
Meltdown.
I thought that if I didn't put restrictions on soda (or other food), ds would find some kind of balance with it. It's working out that way with my neuro-typical daughter, but my son says he doesn't like water any more, and he's bored with orange juice. I tried to talk to him about other drinks that would still be fun to drink, but have a little less sugar, or about drinking soda PLUS other things like water, milk, and juice. He said he'd rather die than have any limits put on him. He says he doen't care about disease or obesity or health in general, and it's his body, and if he's OK with the consequences of drinking lots of soda, nobody else should worry about it.
Eventually we agreed that we would do a week-long experiment: He could have all the soda he wants, but he agrees to drink an equal amount of water. I feel good that we came to this agreement and I didn't make any ultimatums or anything, but when you get right down to it, I'm putting restrictions on him. It made me wonder whether trusting our kids to know what's right for them is really applicable in all cases where the kid has Asperger Syndrome or depression or something like that. My own conclusion is that parents can trust their kiddos to know what they need and make choices for themselves, but in SOME cases, for SOME issues, other mental or emotional issues get in the way of a kid knowing what's best for him.
Just wondering what you all thought about that.
Beth C.
This is probably the issue I struggle with the most, and I was wondering how far this or any other unschooling principle works with special needs kids. Here's my story:
My husband and I don't drink soda, so we never had it in the house. The kiddos like it, so they would order it when we ate out at restaurants or at fast food joints. I was OK with that. Then my son (now 12) asked if we could buy it at the supermarket and have it in the house. So we started buying a 2-liter bottle each week, the kiddos would have it when they wanted it (usually with dinner), and when we ran out they would have something else until we went shopping again. Then ds asked if we could buy more soda so that we wouldn't run out during the week. So we did. Then kiddos started asking to drink soda during lunch, too. OK. Then it was several glasses of soda during meals for ds, plus more whenever he felt thirsty. Nowadays soda is all he drinks (really), and that was too much for me. Today he wanted a third glass during lunch, and I told him he might want to slow down because we were almost out. He said we could go to the store and get more, and I said I didn't want to do that because I bought plenty of soda to get us through the week, and if we're running out, it means we're drinking too much soda.....
Meltdown.
I thought that if I didn't put restrictions on soda (or other food), ds would find some kind of balance with it. It's working out that way with my neuro-typical daughter, but my son says he doesn't like water any more, and he's bored with orange juice. I tried to talk to him about other drinks that would still be fun to drink, but have a little less sugar, or about drinking soda PLUS other things like water, milk, and juice. He said he'd rather die than have any limits put on him. He says he doen't care about disease or obesity or health in general, and it's his body, and if he's OK with the consequences of drinking lots of soda, nobody else should worry about it.
Eventually we agreed that we would do a week-long experiment: He could have all the soda he wants, but he agrees to drink an equal amount of water. I feel good that we came to this agreement and I didn't make any ultimatums or anything, but when you get right down to it, I'm putting restrictions on him. It made me wonder whether trusting our kids to know what's right for them is really applicable in all cases where the kid has Asperger Syndrome or depression or something like that. My own conclusion is that parents can trust their kiddos to know what they need and make choices for themselves, but in SOME cases, for SOME issues, other mental or emotional issues get in the way of a kid knowing what's best for him.
Just wondering what you all thought about that.
Beth C.
Sandra Dodd
-=He said we could go to the store and get more, and I said I didn't
want to do that because I bought plenty of soda to get us through the
week, and if we're running out, it means we're drinking too much
soda.....
-=-Meltdown.-=-
I'm on his side.
Until he gets enough (by his definition of "enough") he can't actually
be making a choice. Kids grow out of tastes and desires. Marty is
the only one at our house who will drink more than one soda a day.
Keith used to. Kirby (who's visiting for a while) used to. Keith
drinks none. I drink maybe one a week.
-=-I thought that if I didn't put restrictions on soda (or other
food), ds would find some kind of balance with it. I-=-
I think you've defined "balance" as doing what you want.
You've also defined what you want, which is somewhere between no soda
and less soda.
-=-Eventually we agreed that we would do a week-long experiment: He
could have all the soda he wants, but he agrees to drink an equal
amount of water. I feel good that we came to this agreement and I
didn't make any ultimatums or anything, but when you get right down to
it, I'm putting restrictions on him. -=-
How is that not an ultimatum?
What happens at the end of the week?
-=-It made me wonder whether trusting our kids to know what's right
for them is really applicable in all cases where the kid has Asperger
Syndrome or depression or something like that. -=-
I have never once, myself, said "kids know what's right for them." I
never have. Others here might have.
What I have said is that if you let them make choices in little
things, they'll have a great deal of experience by the time they get
to bigger things.
I've said that if children are allowed freedom to eat what they feel
they want or need, they seem to be better able to know what they need
than adults (such as myself) who were told what to eat and when and how.
If a label is to be invoked so that a mom can appeal to the people on
this list to say it's okay that she's telling a child what to eat or
not to eat, that's a double misuse of a label, in my opinion.
-=-My own conclusion is that parents can trust their kiddos to know
what they need and make choices for themselves, but in SOME cases, for
SOME issues, other mental or emotional issues get in the way of a kid
knowing what's best for him.-=-
You seem to be defining wanting more soda as a mental or emotional
issue.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
want to do that because I bought plenty of soda to get us through the
week, and if we're running out, it means we're drinking too much
soda.....
-=-Meltdown.-=-
I'm on his side.
Until he gets enough (by his definition of "enough") he can't actually
be making a choice. Kids grow out of tastes and desires. Marty is
the only one at our house who will drink more than one soda a day.
Keith used to. Kirby (who's visiting for a while) used to. Keith
drinks none. I drink maybe one a week.
-=-I thought that if I didn't put restrictions on soda (or other
food), ds would find some kind of balance with it. I-=-
I think you've defined "balance" as doing what you want.
You've also defined what you want, which is somewhere between no soda
and less soda.
-=-Eventually we agreed that we would do a week-long experiment: He
could have all the soda he wants, but he agrees to drink an equal
amount of water. I feel good that we came to this agreement and I
didn't make any ultimatums or anything, but when you get right down to
it, I'm putting restrictions on him. -=-
How is that not an ultimatum?
What happens at the end of the week?
-=-It made me wonder whether trusting our kids to know what's right
for them is really applicable in all cases where the kid has Asperger
Syndrome or depression or something like that. -=-
I have never once, myself, said "kids know what's right for them." I
never have. Others here might have.
What I have said is that if you let them make choices in little
things, they'll have a great deal of experience by the time they get
to bigger things.
I've said that if children are allowed freedom to eat what they feel
they want or need, they seem to be better able to know what they need
than adults (such as myself) who were told what to eat and when and how.
If a label is to be invoked so that a mom can appeal to the people on
this list to say it's okay that she's telling a child what to eat or
not to eat, that's a double misuse of a label, in my opinion.
-=-My own conclusion is that parents can trust their kiddos to know
what they need and make choices for themselves, but in SOME cases, for
SOME issues, other mental or emotional issues get in the way of a kid
knowing what's best for him.-=-
You seem to be defining wanting more soda as a mental or emotional
issue.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
> -=-It made me wonder whether trusting our kids to know what's rightA while back (maybe a year or more--I can't remember) we had a discussion about the word "autonomy." I think I brought it into the issue at hand, having understood that it was a central word to unschooling. There were those who wanted to still use it, but when I really thought about what Sandra was saying about WHY she didn't like it with unschooling, it clicked my relationship with my children up to a whole new level.
> for them is really applicable in all cases where the kid has Asperger
> Syndrome or depression or something like that. -=-
>
> I have never once, myself, said "kids know what's right for them." I
> never have.
At the risk of starting new controversy <g> I see the same underlying ideas at play in the statement "kids know what's right for them." I wonder where that notion came from, because I certainly held onto that for a long time myself, along with the autonomy concept. Sometimes we know what's right for us, and sometimes we don't. It seems a little like magical thinking to ascribe this special quality to children, that they always know what's right for them. It's a tall order for any person!
There are choices, conversations, questions to be asked in a helpful, friendly, information-gathering sort of way (as opposed to a "see, what you think doesn't make sense and what I think does" sort of way!).
And there's looking out at the world together or there's seeing the other as adversary and ourselves as the limit makers.
It seems like making a deal about drinking water MIGHT be fine, if your son is open to the idea, and is willing to experiment to see how he feels doing that, and if he's not in fear that the soda will disappear at the end of the week. OR it will just increase his feeling that he's not able to have enough soda, thereby increasing his desire, anxiety and need for soda, making it look like he's "addicted" to soda.
Just agreeing to do the experiment might not be good enough--if he's not agreeing because he's interested in exploring the idea of cutting down on soda, then it may be more detrimental than helpful.
Joanna
Jenny Cyphers
***Eventually we agreed that we would do a week-long experiment: He could have all the soda he wants, but he agrees to drink an equal amount of water. I feel good that we came to this agreement and I didn't make any ultimatums or anything, but when you get right down to it, I'm putting restrictions on him.***
He probably agreed to get you to stop talking about it and he gets a whole week of all the soda he wants. And just maybe he'll drink is allottment of water, and how are you going to keep tabs on that anyway? If he's thirsty and drinks soda, his thirst is quenched and water will just be gross. I've known kids that gag on water but can drink plenty of things.
Why not just buy soda. There are so many sodas that one could buy, experiment and make it fun and pleasant. One of my favorites are squirt or izzy soda or the hanson sodas. We don't buy a lot of soda, but we have in the past, but never as much as some people I see in the grocery line. My in-laws always have several cases of a variety of soda to choose from. My kids have always liked that they could go there and have a choice between soda, and not just soda, but they generally have LOTS of things to drink, like instant hot cocoa and hot cider and juice and milk and tea and water.
Why not just get some huge cases of soda and lots of variety and let the kids play and explore? You could even try making your own.
You mentioned your son having Asperger's. Without getting into the whole labeling thing here, kids with asperger's do tend to have interesting sensory input and it's very likely that he may like soda because of that reason alone, it sparkles and burns and the fizz feels good, especially with ice. Why not indulge him in what he loves?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He probably agreed to get you to stop talking about it and he gets a whole week of all the soda he wants. And just maybe he'll drink is allottment of water, and how are you going to keep tabs on that anyway? If he's thirsty and drinks soda, his thirst is quenched and water will just be gross. I've known kids that gag on water but can drink plenty of things.
Why not just buy soda. There are so many sodas that one could buy, experiment and make it fun and pleasant. One of my favorites are squirt or izzy soda or the hanson sodas. We don't buy a lot of soda, but we have in the past, but never as much as some people I see in the grocery line. My in-laws always have several cases of a variety of soda to choose from. My kids have always liked that they could go there and have a choice between soda, and not just soda, but they generally have LOTS of things to drink, like instant hot cocoa and hot cider and juice and milk and tea and water.
Why not just get some huge cases of soda and lots of variety and let the kids play and explore? You could even try making your own.
You mentioned your son having Asperger's. Without getting into the whole labeling thing here, kids with asperger's do tend to have interesting sensory input and it's very likely that he may like soda because of that reason alone, it sparkles and burns and the fizz feels good, especially with ice. Why not indulge him in what he loves?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
We have a lot of soda. Linnaea really likes soda, has for a long time. We have a seltzer bottle thing and syrups so we can make our own soda, too, but those never seem to be as appealling to her as a Dr. Pepper or a Sprite. She doesn't like water and isn't that keen on juice, although she really likes the pink, Discovery apple juice a local apple juicer bottles in the autumn. Because of her preference for soda we keep bottles of soda in. We go through, at a guess--I'm not keeping score, up to three 2-liter bottles a week unless there is a sleepover and then it goes up a bit. It's been a little less lately as there has been a focus on koolaid and apple juice. Because of her preference for soda we've tried brewing ginger ale, it didn't work, and I really want to get a hold of root beer extract and brew root beer. I can't get it in the UK and the last time we were in the US I didn't get over to a brew shop as I got distracted by the conference we were
attending. It'll happen, sometime. Oh, and Simon loves Mountain Dew and was really excited when we found it at an asian grocery in the "big city" near us, bottled in the Phillipines, with thicker plastic than the stuff we buy that's bottled in the UK.
Linnaea likes other drinks as well. She likes lassi and she likes chai tea and she likes thai ice tea and a nice cuppa regular tea with milk and sugar. She likes to go into the tea shop and pick out different teas to brew up at home. Her world of fluids isn't just soda, but she does like soda. I'm guessing she always will. It doesn't make her unhealthy, it doesn't make her less able to recover from illness, it doesn't make her more prone to highs and lows. She likes soda and she likes to have it regularly.
I know a woman who gets upset about drinking coke. She really likes an ice cold coke, but she punishes herself everytime she has one. Coke tastes of guilt and calories that she doesn't want and obesity and diabetes to her. It isn't just the pleasure of carbonated syrupy water, it's all this baggage. Linnaea gets to have coke that is guilt-free. And so do I. I really prefer that.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 13 January, 2010 8:06:47
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Unschooling principles and special circumstances (long)
***Eventually we agreed that we would do a week-long experiment: He could have all the soda he wants, but he agrees to drink an equal amount of water. I feel good that we came to this agreement and I didn't make any ultimatums or anything, but when you get right down to it, I'm putting restrictions on him.***
He probably agreed to get you to stop talking about it and he gets a whole week of all the soda he wants. And just maybe he'll drink is allottment of water, and how are you going to keep tabs on that anyway? If he's thirsty and drinks soda, his thirst is quenched and water will just be gross. I've known kids that gag on water but can drink plenty of things.
Why not just buy soda. There are so many sodas that one could buy, experiment and make it fun and pleasant. One of my favorites are squirt or izzy soda or the hanson sodas. We don't buy a lot of soda, but we have in the past, but never as much as some people I see in the grocery line. My in-laws always have several cases of a variety of soda to choose from. My kids have always liked that they could go there and have a choice between soda, and not just soda, but they generally have LOTS of things to drink, like instant hot cocoa and hot cider and juice and milk and tea and water.
Why not just get some huge cases of soda and lots of variety and let the kids play and explore? You could even try making your own.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
attending. It'll happen, sometime. Oh, and Simon loves Mountain Dew and was really excited when we found it at an asian grocery in the "big city" near us, bottled in the Phillipines, with thicker plastic than the stuff we buy that's bottled in the UK.
Linnaea likes other drinks as well. She likes lassi and she likes chai tea and she likes thai ice tea and a nice cuppa regular tea with milk and sugar. She likes to go into the tea shop and pick out different teas to brew up at home. Her world of fluids isn't just soda, but she does like soda. I'm guessing she always will. It doesn't make her unhealthy, it doesn't make her less able to recover from illness, it doesn't make her more prone to highs and lows. She likes soda and she likes to have it regularly.
I know a woman who gets upset about drinking coke. She really likes an ice cold coke, but she punishes herself everytime she has one. Coke tastes of guilt and calories that she doesn't want and obesity and diabetes to her. It isn't just the pleasure of carbonated syrupy water, it's all this baggage. Linnaea gets to have coke that is guilt-free. And so do I. I really prefer that.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 13 January, 2010 8:06:47
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Unschooling principles and special circumstances (long)
***Eventually we agreed that we would do a week-long experiment: He could have all the soda he wants, but he agrees to drink an equal amount of water. I feel good that we came to this agreement and I didn't make any ultimatums or anything, but when you get right down to it, I'm putting restrictions on him.***
He probably agreed to get you to stop talking about it and he gets a whole week of all the soda he wants. And just maybe he'll drink is allottment of water, and how are you going to keep tabs on that anyway? If he's thirsty and drinks soda, his thirst is quenched and water will just be gross. I've known kids that gag on water but can drink plenty of things.
Why not just buy soda. There are so many sodas that one could buy, experiment and make it fun and pleasant. One of my favorites are squirt or izzy soda or the hanson sodas. We don't buy a lot of soda, but we have in the past, but never as much as some people I see in the grocery line. My in-laws always have several cases of a variety of soda to choose from. My kids have always liked that they could go there and have a choice between soda, and not just soda, but they generally have LOTS of things to drink, like instant hot cocoa and hot cider and juice and milk and tea and water.
Why not just get some huge cases of soda and lots of variety and let the kids play and explore? You could even try making your own.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 13, 2010, at 3:06 AM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
they called "concoctions". Grape juice and ginger ale. But any juice
and soda can be experimented with.
To Carl and Kathryn that's a fun thing to do together because soda
was never limited. If you tried it with your son at the moment, it's
likely to come across as another way to limit. Which is a sad
consequence of controlling others.
Shirley of Laverne and Shirley drank milk and Pepsi (which sounds
gross but is -- I'm theorizing! -- very similar to a melted ice cream
float.)
In terms of calories, juice and soda have the same. Some juices (like
orange juice) may be adding some nutrients, they're not equivalent to
fruit. So it's more of a "mom feeling like a good mom" thing to say
drink juice instead of soda.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There are so many sodas that one could buy, experiment and make itAnd you can combine soda with juice. My husband grew up with what
> fun and pleasant.
they called "concoctions". Grape juice and ginger ale. But any juice
and soda can be experimented with.
To Carl and Kathryn that's a fun thing to do together because soda
was never limited. If you tried it with your son at the moment, it's
likely to come across as another way to limit. Which is a sad
consequence of controlling others.
Shirley of Laverne and Shirley drank milk and Pepsi (which sounds
gross but is -- I'm theorizing! -- very similar to a melted ice cream
float.)
In terms of calories, juice and soda have the same. Some juices (like
orange juice) may be adding some nutrients, they're not equivalent to
fruit. So it's more of a "mom feeling like a good mom" thing to say
drink juice instead of soda.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
I have met families that makes their own soda. I haven't tried it but it is
a fun project, especially if your son is really interested. You may have a
different perspective on soda once you are done, too.
Perhaps he would like to immerse himself in soda, and go beyond drinking
it. (No, I wasn't thinking a soda bath, lol). He may be interested in
visiting a bottling plant or researching it online or drinking organic
soda. My kids immerse themselves in dsi's and computers. Other people have
called it an addiction, but I think they just don't want to see the
differences between heroin use, alcohol and playing a game on the computer
or drinking pop/eating candy.
But to put pop in perspective a more historical perspective, people used to
drink beer in England and all over Europe and wine, too was considered
"safer" than drinking water. Babies too weaned on bread dipped in beer,
because the water apparently was considered unsafe two hundred plus years
ago and bread was really hard. Without fridges beer and wine also "keep"
very well.
Safe drinking water is relatively new, though not in North America, yet we
are managing to pollute our waters, with things boiling doesn't kill, but
that's another story<bwg>. Coffee and Tea are popular too, because boiling
water kills germs and so people who didn't drink "alcohol" were
teetotallers. We live in a time of drinking eight glasses a day of
water and in our memories and those of our greatgrandparents water was fresh
from the well, especially in this hemisphere. But, historically people were
drinking all sorts of things.
My last thought is pop is called a "soft drink" cuz alcohol is the "hard
drink".
Marina
2010/1/13 Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a fun project, especially if your son is really interested. You may have a
different perspective on soda once you are done, too.
Perhaps he would like to immerse himself in soda, and go beyond drinking
it. (No, I wasn't thinking a soda bath, lol). He may be interested in
visiting a bottling plant or researching it online or drinking organic
soda. My kids immerse themselves in dsi's and computers. Other people have
called it an addiction, but I think they just don't want to see the
differences between heroin use, alcohol and playing a game on the computer
or drinking pop/eating candy.
But to put pop in perspective a more historical perspective, people used to
drink beer in England and all over Europe and wine, too was considered
"safer" than drinking water. Babies too weaned on bread dipped in beer,
because the water apparently was considered unsafe two hundred plus years
ago and bread was really hard. Without fridges beer and wine also "keep"
very well.
Safe drinking water is relatively new, though not in North America, yet we
are managing to pollute our waters, with things boiling doesn't kill, but
that's another story<bwg>. Coffee and Tea are popular too, because boiling
water kills germs and so people who didn't drink "alcohol" were
teetotallers. We live in a time of drinking eight glasses a day of
water and in our memories and those of our greatgrandparents water was fresh
from the well, especially in this hemisphere. But, historically people were
drinking all sorts of things.
My last thought is pop is called a "soft drink" cuz alcohol is the "hard
drink".
Marina
2010/1/13 Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
>--
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2010, at 3:06 AM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
>
> > There are so many sodas that one could buy, experiment and make it
> > fun and pleasant.
>
> And you can combine soda with juice. My husband grew up with what
> they called "concoctions". Grape juice and ginger ale. But any juice
> and soda can be experimented with.
>
> To Carl and Kathryn that's a fun thing to do together because soda
> was never limited. If you tried it with your son at the moment, it's
> likely to come across as another way to limit. Which is a sad
> consequence of controlling others.
>
> Shirley of Laverne and Shirley drank milk and Pepsi (which sounds
> gross but is -- I'm theorizing! -- very similar to a melted ice cream
> float.)
>
> In terms of calories, juice and soda have the same. Some juices (like
> orange juice) may be adding some nutrients, they're not equivalent to
> fruit. So it's more of a "mom feeling like a good mom" thing to say
> drink juice instead of soda.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/13/2010 3:16 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
as they got older, but they used to love it.
For those who are worried about food issues, try reading, "Let them Eat
Cake: The Case Against Controlling What Your Children Eat," by Robert
Kleinman.
It's available used on Amazon for just couple of dollars - will really
help you stop worrying so much.
-pam
> Shirley of Laverne and Shirley drank milk and Pepsi (which soundsWe drank root beer and milk when my kids were younger - got out of habit
> gross but is -- I'm theorizing! -- very similar to a melted ice cream
> float.)
>
as they got older, but they used to love it.
For those who are worried about food issues, try reading, "Let them Eat
Cake: The Case Against Controlling What Your Children Eat," by Robert
Kleinman.
It's available used on Amazon for just couple of dollars - will really
help you stop worrying so much.
-pam
thecugals
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Beth C.
> I think you've defined "balance" as doing what you want.All I want is for my son not to get diabetes, which runs in our family, or become obese, which surely would happen if he were to continue drinking nothing but soda, as he has done this past week. I have let him make his choices, and now I'm way past my comfort zone, I'm worried, and I don't know what to do. You have said before that you have made food suggestions to your kids. In particular I remember you saying that you asked Holly to wait until after dinner to have a sweet snack she was about to eat. You must have thought she wasn't making a good choice. I was also suggesting to my son that he drink other things in addition to soda, and he got really upset. Then I tried to explain why. He didn't care. I was under the impression that Holly acquiesced because in general she was not given food restrictions, so she was willing to do what you wanted in that case. My son wasn't willing to do that. His reaction was extreme for a 12-year-old, which is why I brought up his "label". Every parent, including you, who has advocated freedom for their kids to eat what they feel they need, has also tried to gently steer them in healthy directions by putting out fruits, for example, or asking them to eat something substantial (like dinner) before eating sweets. That's the path I'm trying to take, but it's hard right now.
> I've said that if children are allowed freedom to eat what they feel
> they want or need, they seem to be better able to know what they need
> than adults (such as myself) who were told what to eat and when and how.
> If a label is to be invoked so that a mom can appeal to the people on
> this list to say it's okay that she's telling a child what to eat or
> not to eat, that's a double misuse of a label, in my opinion.
>
> You seem to be defining wanting more soda as a mental or emotional
> issue.
Beth C.
Lyla Wolfenstein
i also made my own pomegranate syrup this christmas, (really really easy), using juice and sugar and water and lemon, and then mixed some with sparkling water and my daughter said it was the best drink ever. like an italian soda. you could do that with any juice, to make it more soda like (my son doesn't like juice or most sparkling juice, although they sell a blueberry one at trader joes he loves). but yes, i agree that it should be a fun and more interesting alternative, not a result of limitation. my son loves soda. but also has does self limit to some degree, out of his OWN developing understanding of how he feels/what he sees as the results of consuming huge amounts of sugar at once. he might have no soda for a week or two, then 1 a day for another week. he almost never has more than that. this is most definitely a kid who had an intense desire for large amounts of sugar, from toddlerhood - so it's really fascinating to watch that self-regulation. he also is mostly happy with hansens soda, which uses sugar rather than HFCS, so i buy that, and when we are at the movies or somewhere that has regular soda, *if* he wants it, he orders it. but this is the result of 2 years of true freedom and choice without judgement. and it's *his* result.
i think the OP was the same one who said her son would rather *die* than be controlled? that really struck a chord with me - my son is similar in that respect, and tends towards depression and anxiety as well. in my opinion, kids with those tendencies need MORE freedom, more support in their yearning for freedom, and less control and judgement (not that anyone needs control or judgement) than do kids who tend toward easy going, whatever's fine, type attitude/experience. i have seen that to be true even with kids with diagnoses. i hope i am not confusing the original post with another.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
i think the OP was the same one who said her son would rather *die* than be controlled? that really struck a chord with me - my son is similar in that respect, and tends towards depression and anxiety as well. in my opinion, kids with those tendencies need MORE freedom, more support in their yearning for freedom, and less control and judgement (not that anyone needs control or judgement) than do kids who tend toward easy going, whatever's fine, type attitude/experience. i have seen that to be true even with kids with diagnoses. i hope i am not confusing the original post with another.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I wonder where that notion came from, because I certainly held
onto that for a long time myself, along with the autonomy concept.
Sometimes we know what's right for us, and sometimes we don't. It
seems a little like magical thinking to ascribe this special quality
to children, that they always know what's right for them. It's a tall
order for any person!-=-
I think some people would like to believe that it's easy to describe
unschooling, so they find a pretty, soothing explanation and they
sprinkle it around like fairy dust. They don't stick around to see
whether it actually worked or not.
I've been sticking around now for 18 years, helping other people
actually work it out, and observing those families who were
unschooling before I ever considered it (Rice McClures and Odhners;
I'm in contact with the mom of one family and the mom and the kids of
another).
If I give bad advice, or if I allow bad advice to stand on a list or
discussion I'm running, I try to amend the misinformation.
The pretty descriptions come from two angles, I think. Maybe three.
One is that women tend toward soothing noise rather than concrete (and
possibly uncomfortable) information. Another is that school didn't
always teach us what they meant to, but they DID train us like rats to
do the very least possible work to get that pellet of alfalfa.
Some people see me, or other list owners or speakers or whatever,
getting attention or being invited places, and they think all they
have to do is create a yahoogroup, or run a list, and if it's an anti-
Sandra list, certainly they have an influx of other members, and they
*think* all they have to do is make some unschooling noise and they
will be just as good and respected as anyone who ever helped anybody,
but it turns out that bad advice makes families unhappy, and I'm
continuing to try to gather ideas and people for the purpose of making
families happy, and making unschooling sensible and long-lasting.
It's not magic, it's work. It's not easy to understand, it's
difficult. But once it's understood, once a person really is
facilitating learning at home and kids are relaxing into trusting that
the parents will help them and trust them and not whip the rug out
from under them in the middle of a game or a work-in-progress, they
start to blossom. When the kids start to blossom the parents feel
successful and their fear diminishes. When the parents feel great
about being good parents, and the kids are blossoming, then it can be
self-fueling. Until a family gets to that point, they might be
confused and frustrated.
If someone has started a list who doesn't know the next several steps,
that might just be a source of new and frustrated people to join this
list (if they're lucky) or to give up and put their kids in school
where the school doesn't think very highly of homeschoolers.
Now I'm rambling and so I'll stop, but I'm rambling in the area of
something we don't talk about much, but it's there and it's big.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
onto that for a long time myself, along with the autonomy concept.
Sometimes we know what's right for us, and sometimes we don't. It
seems a little like magical thinking to ascribe this special quality
to children, that they always know what's right for them. It's a tall
order for any person!-=-
I think some people would like to believe that it's easy to describe
unschooling, so they find a pretty, soothing explanation and they
sprinkle it around like fairy dust. They don't stick around to see
whether it actually worked or not.
I've been sticking around now for 18 years, helping other people
actually work it out, and observing those families who were
unschooling before I ever considered it (Rice McClures and Odhners;
I'm in contact with the mom of one family and the mom and the kids of
another).
If I give bad advice, or if I allow bad advice to stand on a list or
discussion I'm running, I try to amend the misinformation.
The pretty descriptions come from two angles, I think. Maybe three.
One is that women tend toward soothing noise rather than concrete (and
possibly uncomfortable) information. Another is that school didn't
always teach us what they meant to, but they DID train us like rats to
do the very least possible work to get that pellet of alfalfa.
Some people see me, or other list owners or speakers or whatever,
getting attention or being invited places, and they think all they
have to do is create a yahoogroup, or run a list, and if it's an anti-
Sandra list, certainly they have an influx of other members, and they
*think* all they have to do is make some unschooling noise and they
will be just as good and respected as anyone who ever helped anybody,
but it turns out that bad advice makes families unhappy, and I'm
continuing to try to gather ideas and people for the purpose of making
families happy, and making unschooling sensible and long-lasting.
It's not magic, it's work. It's not easy to understand, it's
difficult. But once it's understood, once a person really is
facilitating learning at home and kids are relaxing into trusting that
the parents will help them and trust them and not whip the rug out
from under them in the middle of a game or a work-in-progress, they
start to blossom. When the kids start to blossom the parents feel
successful and their fear diminishes. When the parents feel great
about being good parents, and the kids are blossoming, then it can be
self-fueling. Until a family gets to that point, they might be
confused and frustrated.
If someone has started a list who doesn't know the next several steps,
that might just be a source of new and frustrated people to join this
list (if they're lucky) or to give up and put their kids in school
where the school doesn't think very highly of homeschoolers.
Now I'm rambling and so I'll stop, but I'm rambling in the area of
something we don't talk about much, but it's there and it's big.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I really want to get a hold of root beer extract and brew root
beer. I can't get it in the UK -=-
Schuyler, we drank root beer floats in your family's honor, on
Thursday night at the Santa Fe Unschooling Symposium. I forgot to
take a photo. I didn't take enough photos. But several moms built
the floats all on one table, and as the take-out food from Blake's
Lotaburger and Dion's Pizza was being distributed, we passed out those
root beer floats. Made with A&W from 2 liter bottles that had cost
from 89 cents to $1.19, depending when and where they'd been bought.
I should've told you sooner.
There was also a waffle breakfast, and the waffle irons will be
delivered to you at some point. Not as early as they would have been
if Julie Daniel had made it over. Snow kept her home, or the waffle
irons would be in the U.K. now. We had a plan.
Joy is more important than control. If a person finds joy in control,
that happiness is at the expense of other people's freedom.
Children might choose an all-organic, vegan diet someday. It would
limit them socially, but they could make that choice on their own.
If they don't have choices all along, the choices they make on their
own later will be reactionary rather than balanced and thoughtful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beer. I can't get it in the UK -=-
Schuyler, we drank root beer floats in your family's honor, on
Thursday night at the Santa Fe Unschooling Symposium. I forgot to
take a photo. I didn't take enough photos. But several moms built
the floats all on one table, and as the take-out food from Blake's
Lotaburger and Dion's Pizza was being distributed, we passed out those
root beer floats. Made with A&W from 2 liter bottles that had cost
from 89 cents to $1.19, depending when and where they'd been bought.
I should've told you sooner.
There was also a waffle breakfast, and the waffle irons will be
delivered to you at some point. Not as early as they would have been
if Julie Daniel had made it over. Snow kept her home, or the waffle
irons would be in the U.K. now. We had a plan.
Joy is more important than control. If a person finds joy in control,
that happiness is at the expense of other people's freedom.
Children might choose an all-organic, vegan diet someday. It would
limit them socially, but they could make that choice on their own.
If they don't have choices all along, the choices they make on their
own later will be reactionary rather than balanced and thoughtful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-And you can combine soda with juice. My husband grew up with what
they called "concoctions". Grape juice and ginger ale. But any juice
and soda can be experimented with.-=-
Keith doesn't drink soda anymore, but he and Holly used to drink a
combination of cranberry juice and Squirt that they both loved for
years. Squirt is a grapefruit soda.
-=-Shirley of Laverne and Shirley drank milk and Pepsi (which sounds
gross but is -- I'm theorizing! -- very similar to a melted ice cream
float.)-=-
When I was a teen, the Tastee Freeze in Espanola had on the menu
"French coke." The wife of the owner was from France, and she said
they put milk in coke there, but what this was was half-and-half
(about as much as you'd put in a cup of coffee) put in when a fountain
coke was made.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they called "concoctions". Grape juice and ginger ale. But any juice
and soda can be experimented with.-=-
Keith doesn't drink soda anymore, but he and Holly used to drink a
combination of cranberry juice and Squirt that they both loved for
years. Squirt is a grapefruit soda.
-=-Shirley of Laverne and Shirley drank milk and Pepsi (which sounds
gross but is -- I'm theorizing! -- very similar to a melted ice cream
float.)-=-
When I was a teen, the Tastee Freeze in Espanola had on the menu
"French coke." The wife of the owner was from France, and she said
they put milk in coke there, but what this was was half-and-half
(about as much as you'd put in a cup of coffee) put in when a fountain
coke was made.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- in my opinion, kids with those tendencies need MORE freedom, more
support in their yearning for freedom, and less control and judgement
(not that anyone needs control or judgement) than do kids who tend
toward easy going, whatever's fine, type attitude/experience. i have
seen that to be true even with kids with diagnoses. i hope i am not
confusing the original post with another.-=-
As the goal is to discuss the ideas and not the individuals, confusing
one post with another isn't much of a problem. I know it irritates a
poster who has come here to just get a single answer to a single
question, but anyone who comes here for one "fix" and goes away will
be unlikely to really understand, as all these things work together to
create a good unschooling nest.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
support in their yearning for freedom, and less control and judgement
(not that anyone needs control or judgement) than do kids who tend
toward easy going, whatever's fine, type attitude/experience. i have
seen that to be true even with kids with diagnoses. i hope i am not
confusing the original post with another.-=-
As the goal is to discuss the ideas and not the individuals, confusing
one post with another isn't much of a problem. I know it irritates a
poster who has come here to just get a single answer to a single
question, but anyone who comes here for one "fix" and goes away will
be unlikely to really understand, as all these things work together to
create a good unschooling nest.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I've known kids that gag on water but can drink plenty of things.
-=-=-=-=-=
I was one of those kids. I can taste water and about 99% of the water tastes gross. Even bottled water.
There is 1 bottle water in this country that I like and they don';t sell it where I live.
I finally fount one carbonated/sparkling water I like and is not so expensive.
That is what I drink/
It also need to be at the right temperature.
I do understand what it is to not like drinking water.
Now my kids can dring whatever they want.
We have a cooler with water, milk, chocolate milk, juice and at least 2 types of soda the kids like, plus my sparkling water.
Right now my son likes juice, water and chocolate milk ( his favorite at the moment he said)
Gigi likes sparkling water, diet coke, root beer.
She will take a few sips of the soda but she drinks more of the sparkling water with me and she likes it just like I do ( super cold and icy from the freezer).
When my son was little and I kept soda out of the house ( mu husband is a big soda drinker and kept it in the barn) , my son would drink the whole can when he got a hold of one. I never told him no but I cringed at it.
Once I embraced having them available that all changed. He started by taking a few sips and leaving most in the can to now drinking at all.
Nowadays we alwasy buy it and have it available. It lasts for weeks sometimes if we don't have kids over.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-=-=
I was one of those kids. I can taste water and about 99% of the water tastes gross. Even bottled water.
There is 1 bottle water in this country that I like and they don';t sell it where I live.
I finally fount one carbonated/sparkling water I like and is not so expensive.
That is what I drink/
It also need to be at the right temperature.
I do understand what it is to not like drinking water.
Now my kids can dring whatever they want.
We have a cooler with water, milk, chocolate milk, juice and at least 2 types of soda the kids like, plus my sparkling water.
Right now my son likes juice, water and chocolate milk ( his favorite at the moment he said)
Gigi likes sparkling water, diet coke, root beer.
She will take a few sips of the soda but she drinks more of the sparkling water with me and she likes it just like I do ( super cold and icy from the freezer).
When my son was little and I kept soda out of the house ( mu husband is a big soda drinker and kept it in the barn) , my son would drink the whole can when he got a hold of one. I never told him no but I cringed at it.
Once I embraced having them available that all changed. He started by taking a few sips and leaving most in the can to now drinking at all.
Nowadays we alwasy buy it and have it available. It lasts for weeks sometimes if we don't have kids over.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- You have said before that you have made food suggestions to your
kids. In particular I remember you saying that you asked Holly to wait
until after dinner to have a sweet snack she was about to eat. You
must have thought she wasn't making a good choice.-=-
I don't remember the story, but I do believe you read it.
It strikes me, though, that you have held on to it as a justification
for controlling your child.
If I used that story as evidence that kids given freedom in a
trusting, helpful atmosphere will let the parents say "Maybe wait," or
even "Stop; no" when the situation calls for it, that doesn't seem to
apply to the situation with the limitations.
My husband was a fat baby, and a fat child, and a fat teen. His
mother was horrible to him about it, hardly fed him, shamed him,
laughed at him, embarrassed him. That was more horrible than being
fat was. His mother was horrible, not food. Food was comfort for him.
My boys have the tendency to paunch up and get skinny, without working
hard at either. But they haven't lived with any pressure or shame.
-=-All I want is for my son not to get diabetes, which runs in our
family, or become obese, which surely would happen if he were to
continue drinking nothing but soda, -=-
SURELY? And that is ALL you want?
I don't think it's assured that it would make him obese, nor is that
all you want.
I know these things are very difficult to look at. Please patiently
continue to examine the dark little corners of your situation.
-=-I have let him make his choices, and now I'm way past my comfort
zone, I'm worried, and I don't know what to do.-=-
You could go to another list where they'll coo and tell you you're
right. That would put you back in your comfort zone, maybe. You
could put him back in school where they'll give him only a tiny school
lunch, and when he gets home hungry you could have just exactly what
you think would be best for him to eat. That's not only legal, it's
highly regarded by the majority of the people around you. If
unschooling and choices aren't something you can deal with, don't.
There is certainly no compulsory unschooling in the world, and nobody
has EVER said parents are required to give children choices.
-=-Then I tried to explain why. He didn't care. I was under the
impression that Holly acquiesced because in general she was not given
food restrictions, so she was willing to do what you wanted in that
case. -=-
If your explanations were same-old-same-old, that might be why he
didn't care. If you were telling him that if he eats sugar he will
get diabetes and be fat, he might just be tired of hearing that. It's
more like a curse than advice. It sounds more like "I hope you get
diabetes and get fat [so I'll be right]." If you have an adversarial
relationship, your child will not listen to you as Holly listens to
me. When I make a suggestion to one of my children in a social
situation, I don't think of them "acquiescing" or "doing what I want,"
but of me reminding them of other factors so they can see why it might
be a good idea.
-=-Every parent, including you, who has advocated freedom for their
kids to eat what they feel they need, has also tried to gently steer
them in healthy directions by putting out fruits, for example, or
asking them to eat something substantial (like dinner) before eating
sweets. That's the path I'm trying to take, but it's hard right now. -=-
This sounds so personal, so much about me, and other parents, rather
than about the ideas. If I make a big salmon salad, am I trying to
gently steer my husband in a healthy direction? I'm probably taking
note of the fact that we've had meat and potatoes one night, and then
pizza the next, and it's about time for greens and fish. That's not
me being manipulative. That's me being a good partner, a better
provider, and thoughtful mate. If I give him salad every night and
tell him he has no business eating pizza, or that salmon is better for
him than beef, then I'm being an adversary. He will go and have a
pizza with sausage and ground beef somewhere else, where I'm not
looking. Like he did with his mom.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kids. In particular I remember you saying that you asked Holly to wait
until after dinner to have a sweet snack she was about to eat. You
must have thought she wasn't making a good choice.-=-
I don't remember the story, but I do believe you read it.
It strikes me, though, that you have held on to it as a justification
for controlling your child.
If I used that story as evidence that kids given freedom in a
trusting, helpful atmosphere will let the parents say "Maybe wait," or
even "Stop; no" when the situation calls for it, that doesn't seem to
apply to the situation with the limitations.
My husband was a fat baby, and a fat child, and a fat teen. His
mother was horrible to him about it, hardly fed him, shamed him,
laughed at him, embarrassed him. That was more horrible than being
fat was. His mother was horrible, not food. Food was comfort for him.
My boys have the tendency to paunch up and get skinny, without working
hard at either. But they haven't lived with any pressure or shame.
-=-All I want is for my son not to get diabetes, which runs in our
family, or become obese, which surely would happen if he were to
continue drinking nothing but soda, -=-
SURELY? And that is ALL you want?
I don't think it's assured that it would make him obese, nor is that
all you want.
I know these things are very difficult to look at. Please patiently
continue to examine the dark little corners of your situation.
-=-I have let him make his choices, and now I'm way past my comfort
zone, I'm worried, and I don't know what to do.-=-
You could go to another list where they'll coo and tell you you're
right. That would put you back in your comfort zone, maybe. You
could put him back in school where they'll give him only a tiny school
lunch, and when he gets home hungry you could have just exactly what
you think would be best for him to eat. That's not only legal, it's
highly regarded by the majority of the people around you. If
unschooling and choices aren't something you can deal with, don't.
There is certainly no compulsory unschooling in the world, and nobody
has EVER said parents are required to give children choices.
-=-Then I tried to explain why. He didn't care. I was under the
impression that Holly acquiesced because in general she was not given
food restrictions, so she was willing to do what you wanted in that
case. -=-
If your explanations were same-old-same-old, that might be why he
didn't care. If you were telling him that if he eats sugar he will
get diabetes and be fat, he might just be tired of hearing that. It's
more like a curse than advice. It sounds more like "I hope you get
diabetes and get fat [so I'll be right]." If you have an adversarial
relationship, your child will not listen to you as Holly listens to
me. When I make a suggestion to one of my children in a social
situation, I don't think of them "acquiescing" or "doing what I want,"
but of me reminding them of other factors so they can see why it might
be a good idea.
-=-Every parent, including you, who has advocated freedom for their
kids to eat what they feel they need, has also tried to gently steer
them in healthy directions by putting out fruits, for example, or
asking them to eat something substantial (like dinner) before eating
sweets. That's the path I'm trying to take, but it's hard right now. -=-
This sounds so personal, so much about me, and other parents, rather
than about the ideas. If I make a big salmon salad, am I trying to
gently steer my husband in a healthy direction? I'm probably taking
note of the fact that we've had meat and potatoes one night, and then
pizza the next, and it's about time for greens and fish. That's not
me being manipulative. That's me being a good partner, a better
provider, and thoughtful mate. If I give him salad every night and
tell him he has no business eating pizza, or that salmon is better for
him than beef, then I'm being an adversary. He will go and have a
pizza with sausage and ground beef somewhere else, where I'm not
looking. Like he did with his mom.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
but y our request wasn't a "specific to that moment/situation" request - it was a general suggestion - drink "less" soda. those two things are worlds apart.
lyla
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyla
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/13/2010 8:27 AM, thecugals wrote:
of hang-up over soda. Buy several cases and keep them restocked. Say
that you realize that you let your own worries get in the way of good sense.
Then, stop yourself from even thinking about it for one year. Get back
to us then.
In the meantime, always have a really nice pitcher (maybe a Britta water
filter) of cold water available - on the counter if possible, with a
glass right there. Just have it there - do not offer it or say anything
about it to him. Drink from it yourself, but always keep it refilled.
Offer lots of good foods - fruits, especially. Support whatever
interests he has that are active.
LOTS of people spend some years drinking lots of soda and they don't get
terribly obese and they don't develop diabetes. Most of them eventually
cut back on the soda as they get older. I can't even tell you how many
young adult/older teens I know who say they "gave up soda" because they
started to want to keep their weight down.
You can do more harm than the soda can do. You can set him up for food
issues for life.
-pam
> All I want is for my son not to get diabetes, which runs in our family, or become obese, which surely would happen if he were to continue drinking nothing but soda, as he has done this past week.I'd say tell him you're sorry. That you realize that you have some sort
of hang-up over soda. Buy several cases and keep them restocked. Say
that you realize that you let your own worries get in the way of good sense.
Then, stop yourself from even thinking about it for one year. Get back
to us then.
In the meantime, always have a really nice pitcher (maybe a Britta water
filter) of cold water available - on the counter if possible, with a
glass right there. Just have it there - do not offer it or say anything
about it to him. Drink from it yourself, but always keep it refilled.
Offer lots of good foods - fruits, especially. Support whatever
interests he has that are active.
LOTS of people spend some years drinking lots of soda and they don't get
terribly obese and they don't develop diabetes. Most of them eventually
cut back on the soda as they get older. I can't even tell you how many
young adult/older teens I know who say they "gave up soda" because they
started to want to keep their weight down.
You can do more harm than the soda can do. You can set him up for food
issues for life.
-pam
Jenny Cyphers
***In particular I remember you saying that you asked Holly to wait until after dinner to have a sweet snack she was about to eat. You must have thought she wasn't making a good choice. I was also suggesting to my son that he drink other things in addition to soda, and he got really upset.***
The big big difference here is that Holly grew up without anyone controlling what she ate. I imagine she was hungry and came into the kitchen to find some food, the easiest and most available may have been cookies. Sandra, probably, in an informative way said, "hey wait, because food is almost ready.", then Holly waited because she probably prefered filling up on food other than cookies.
Your son hasn't had that. He's upset and reacting to control which is a way different place to be in than Holly was. If my husband told me that he felt it best that I only drink one cup of coffee a day and then proceeded to make sure I followed these orders, it wouldn't be very relationship building and I might tell him to "f**k off and mind your own business". A mom can do the same thing to a kid and the kid may react in a similar fashion, maybe not yet as balsy to say something so direct, but they'd certainly FEEL that sentiment and get really upset and cry about it.
What I've seen over the years, is that kids who grow up like this, will often go one of 2 ways.. they either quietly accept what the parents tell them to do and then be sneaky about it or die a little inside, OR they outrightly rebel. Neither of those seem like acceptable relationship building things. I have a great relationship with my teenager, largely because I never did that "do what I say" controlling thing. I took into account what SHE wanted and trusted her that she knew enough about herself to know that she knew what she was talking about. When she makes mistakes, that's all they are, and I'm here as a soft landing.
***Every parent, including you, who has advocated freedom for their kids to eat what they feel they need, has also tried to gently steer them in healthy directions by putting out fruits, for example, or asking them to eat something substantial (like dinner) before eating sweets. That's the path I'm trying to take, but it's hard right now. ***
I don't gently steer my kids. They aren't horses or cows. They are thinking individuals with individual likes and dislikes and varying needs and wants. If I think they might like some fruit, I'll put it out there for them. The latest on our grocery list requests has been exactly that, in the middle of winter, but hey, we do what we can even if they want strawberries. I have never told my kids to eat something substantial before they eat anything else. They eat when they are hungry and generally what sounds good to them at any given time which may or may not be what I've prepared as a meal. My youngest daughter will often eat cookies with or before she eats a more regular meal. Sometimes she'll eat chocolate all day one day and very little else and the next day eat zero chocolate or other sweet delights and eat sandwhiches and fruit and yogurt and fish tacos and salad and carrot sticks raw without dip.
The only way it will cease being hard is if you stop fretting about it and trying to control things. That actually makes living way more difficult than it needs to be. You CAN be more relaxed and happily allow your kids and yourself to eat what you and they want. If you are concerned about diabetes, even better to release the control and really allow your children to listen to what their bodies are telling them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The big big difference here is that Holly grew up without anyone controlling what she ate. I imagine she was hungry and came into the kitchen to find some food, the easiest and most available may have been cookies. Sandra, probably, in an informative way said, "hey wait, because food is almost ready.", then Holly waited because she probably prefered filling up on food other than cookies.
Your son hasn't had that. He's upset and reacting to control which is a way different place to be in than Holly was. If my husband told me that he felt it best that I only drink one cup of coffee a day and then proceeded to make sure I followed these orders, it wouldn't be very relationship building and I might tell him to "f**k off and mind your own business". A mom can do the same thing to a kid and the kid may react in a similar fashion, maybe not yet as balsy to say something so direct, but they'd certainly FEEL that sentiment and get really upset and cry about it.
What I've seen over the years, is that kids who grow up like this, will often go one of 2 ways.. they either quietly accept what the parents tell them to do and then be sneaky about it or die a little inside, OR they outrightly rebel. Neither of those seem like acceptable relationship building things. I have a great relationship with my teenager, largely because I never did that "do what I say" controlling thing. I took into account what SHE wanted and trusted her that she knew enough about herself to know that she knew what she was talking about. When she makes mistakes, that's all they are, and I'm here as a soft landing.
***Every parent, including you, who has advocated freedom for their kids to eat what they feel they need, has also tried to gently steer them in healthy directions by putting out fruits, for example, or asking them to eat something substantial (like dinner) before eating sweets. That's the path I'm trying to take, but it's hard right now. ***
I don't gently steer my kids. They aren't horses or cows. They are thinking individuals with individual likes and dislikes and varying needs and wants. If I think they might like some fruit, I'll put it out there for them. The latest on our grocery list requests has been exactly that, in the middle of winter, but hey, we do what we can even if they want strawberries. I have never told my kids to eat something substantial before they eat anything else. They eat when they are hungry and generally what sounds good to them at any given time which may or may not be what I've prepared as a meal. My youngest daughter will often eat cookies with or before she eats a more regular meal. Sometimes she'll eat chocolate all day one day and very little else and the next day eat zero chocolate or other sweet delights and eat sandwhiches and fruit and yogurt and fish tacos and salad and carrot sticks raw without dip.
The only way it will cease being hard is if you stop fretting about it and trying to control things. That actually makes living way more difficult than it needs to be. You CAN be more relaxed and happily allow your kids and yourself to eat what you and they want. If you are concerned about diabetes, even better to release the control and really allow your children to listen to what their bodies are telling them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/13/2010 11:04 AM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
too. That's probably what most parents who are restrictive and
controlling about certain things are hoping for and it does happen. I,
personally, don't think the risk is worth it. I don't want my kids to be
like that - I don't want them to simply accept my ideas that way. I want
them to think for themselves.
They do. Those who were at the symposium heard my three girls say things
that might have embarrassed me, but that was more than offset, for me,
by the fact that they were really honest and thinking for themselves and
analytical about their own lives. That's a higher priority for me than
that they always agree with me, for sure.
Where does that come from? How did they get to be able to calmly and
easily just not agree with me, without it being a big deal? How did they
become such independent thinkers? It came from supporting them in having
their own individual ideas about little things like drinking soda or
watching a tv show.
-pam
> What I've seen over the years, is that kids who grow up like this, will often go one of 2 ways.. they either quietly accept what the parents tell them to do and then be sneaky about it or die a little inside, OR they outrightly rebel.Or they thoroughly adopt the same ideas as their parents and spout them,
>
too. That's probably what most parents who are restrictive and
controlling about certain things are hoping for and it does happen. I,
personally, don't think the risk is worth it. I don't want my kids to be
like that - I don't want them to simply accept my ideas that way. I want
them to think for themselves.
They do. Those who were at the symposium heard my three girls say things
that might have embarrassed me, but that was more than offset, for me,
by the fact that they were really honest and thinking for themselves and
analytical about their own lives. That's a higher priority for me than
that they always agree with me, for sure.
Where does that come from? How did they get to be able to calmly and
easily just not agree with me, without it being a big deal? How did they
become such independent thinkers? It came from supporting them in having
their own individual ideas about little things like drinking soda or
watching a tv show.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=- Sandra, probably, in an informative way said, "hey wait, because
food is almost ready.", then Holly waited because she probably
prefered filling up on food other than cookies.-=-
Just this morning Holly came into the bedroom while I was still in bed
(I was awake) with a bowl of bread pudding. She said that the night
before she had come home from getting a tattoo and grabbed a pumpkin
cookie. (Smith's here makes pumpkin chocolate chip cookies all year
long--not look-like-a-pumpkin, but made of pumpkin.) That's not a
bad choice. But then she saw there was a big pan of bread pudding,
and was sorry she had already eaten the cookie.
After the symposium, people gave me leftover groceries. Lots of
bread, lots of milk (and cream and half and half) so in order to make
room in the fridge, I made bread pudding. The kids really like that.
If I said "Eat bread pudding instead of [anything]," it wouldn't be
their choice and it wouldn't be as good. Bread pudding is old-timey
grandma food. It's not "cool" or modern. But it's comfort food for
those who grew up with it and whose home was comforting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
food is almost ready.", then Holly waited because she probably
prefered filling up on food other than cookies.-=-
Just this morning Holly came into the bedroom while I was still in bed
(I was awake) with a bowl of bread pudding. She said that the night
before she had come home from getting a tattoo and grabbed a pumpkin
cookie. (Smith's here makes pumpkin chocolate chip cookies all year
long--not look-like-a-pumpkin, but made of pumpkin.) That's not a
bad choice. But then she saw there was a big pan of bread pudding,
and was sorry she had already eaten the cookie.
After the symposium, people gave me leftover groceries. Lots of
bread, lots of milk (and cream and half and half) so in order to make
room in the fridge, I made bread pudding. The kids really like that.
If I said "Eat bread pudding instead of [anything]," it wouldn't be
their choice and it wouldn't be as good. Bread pudding is old-timey
grandma food. It's not "cool" or modern. But it's comfort food for
those who grew up with it and whose home was comforting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<< > All I want is for my son not to get diabetes, which runs in our
family, or become obese, which surely would happen if he were to continue
drinking nothing but soda, as he has done this past week. >>>
Part of the problem here is your insistence on "surely". It may not happen
if he drinks soda, especially if he is active. It may still happen in the
absence of soda because it runs in your family. If he is hearing your
certainty, it might be in his natural temperment to want to prove things for
himself. That means that you are setting up a situation where one or the
other of you will have to be proven wrong. That's not a good thing for your
relationship or his long term health.
<<< In particular I remember you saying that you asked Holly to wait until
after dinner to have a sweet snack she was about to eat. You must have
thought she wasn't making a good choice. I was also suggesting to my son
that he drink other things in addition to soda, and he got really upset.
Then I tried to explain why. He didn't care. I was under the impression
that Holly acquiesced because in general she was not given food
restrictions, so she was willing to do what you wanted in that case. >>>
Sandra has many beautiful stories of Holly, Marty and Kirby acquiescing
graciously to her few requests, because of the long build up of trust
between her and her kids. She didn't have years of control to undo.
Sometimes kids have different temperaments from Holly. Jayn (10) is very
different. She reacts vigorously to many requests that she change some piece
of behavior, because she sees them as an attempt at control, even though
they are just requests and based on something real (like the time of day or
my headache). This is even though we don't have years of control to undo.
Sometimes Jayn apparently needs to go through the process of proving to
herself that she is free to say no (and she is), and come around slowly to
saying yes. She almost always does acquiese after this transitional
"defiant" moment. (I don't think of it as "defiance", my mother would have!
Probably conventional parents witnessing it would.))
This happens more when she has been out and about in contact with kids and
homes where there are fewer real choices given to the kids, rules, odd
arbritrary restrictions. It's as if she has to reassure herself that her
life is still free. Or something.
So Jayn will usually acquiese, but not always graciously at first. She will
acquiese because once she has understood that she doesn't "have to", then
she can see the sense in the request. Or she can make a reasoned and sane
arguement based on her prior experience why she won't agree or comply. Or
she comes up with a nice compromise that I hadn't considered.
I don't ask a lot of her. I almost never make any remarks about her food
choices. If she has a tummy upset at any time, we will talk about the
timeline, and what she ate and make connections. We recently came to the
still fuzzy conclusion that the sugar free kool-aid is probably making her
poops liquid (a known effect of some artificial sweetners fo some people. I
didn't mean to buy the sugar free for that reason.) It was her realization,
after we were talking over all that she had consumed over several days. I
won't have to then restrict her kool aid consumption. She will happily do
that for herself - unless she feels constipated. Then she might see it
medicinally.
She would not be happy if I were directing her not to have kool aid. She
wouldn't like being told much more than she wouldn't like tummyache. That is
something that is inside her, Who She Is.
There have been moments in my earlier life here on these lists with a
school-age unschooler for now 5 years (counting Kindergarten) when I have
had a certain amount of frustration because it seemed like I was doing all
the same things, broadly, as Sandra, but my little girl wasn't becoming as
sweet and easy going as Holly. Jayn almost never in her life just says yes.
Comparing one kid to another isn't a path to inner peace.
Unschooling doesn't magically change your child's temperament. It doesn't
magically make a strong willed child into an easy going child. It can
support your child's strong will, so that they get to be as happy and feel
as easy going inside themselves as an easy going kid.
Unschooling allows me to look with wonder and joy at my real child, who will
never be Holly but I think is just as cool in her own way. She will grow up
knowing herself, what she needs to be happy and what she needs to do when
she feels frustrated and unhappy.
For me, a battle over soda, or any food, is just not worth it.
<<< His reaction was extreme for a 12-year-old >>>>
12 is often the start of puberty. It's likely to be a relatively volatile
age in any kid.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
family, or become obese, which surely would happen if he were to continue
drinking nothing but soda, as he has done this past week. >>>
Part of the problem here is your insistence on "surely". It may not happen
if he drinks soda, especially if he is active. It may still happen in the
absence of soda because it runs in your family. If he is hearing your
certainty, it might be in his natural temperment to want to prove things for
himself. That means that you are setting up a situation where one or the
other of you will have to be proven wrong. That's not a good thing for your
relationship or his long term health.
<<< In particular I remember you saying that you asked Holly to wait until
after dinner to have a sweet snack she was about to eat. You must have
thought she wasn't making a good choice. I was also suggesting to my son
that he drink other things in addition to soda, and he got really upset.
Then I tried to explain why. He didn't care. I was under the impression
that Holly acquiesced because in general she was not given food
restrictions, so she was willing to do what you wanted in that case. >>>
Sandra has many beautiful stories of Holly, Marty and Kirby acquiescing
graciously to her few requests, because of the long build up of trust
between her and her kids. She didn't have years of control to undo.
Sometimes kids have different temperaments from Holly. Jayn (10) is very
different. She reacts vigorously to many requests that she change some piece
of behavior, because she sees them as an attempt at control, even though
they are just requests and based on something real (like the time of day or
my headache). This is even though we don't have years of control to undo.
Sometimes Jayn apparently needs to go through the process of proving to
herself that she is free to say no (and she is), and come around slowly to
saying yes. She almost always does acquiese after this transitional
"defiant" moment. (I don't think of it as "defiance", my mother would have!
Probably conventional parents witnessing it would.))
This happens more when she has been out and about in contact with kids and
homes where there are fewer real choices given to the kids, rules, odd
arbritrary restrictions. It's as if she has to reassure herself that her
life is still free. Or something.
So Jayn will usually acquiese, but not always graciously at first. She will
acquiese because once she has understood that she doesn't "have to", then
she can see the sense in the request. Or she can make a reasoned and sane
arguement based on her prior experience why she won't agree or comply. Or
she comes up with a nice compromise that I hadn't considered.
I don't ask a lot of her. I almost never make any remarks about her food
choices. If she has a tummy upset at any time, we will talk about the
timeline, and what she ate and make connections. We recently came to the
still fuzzy conclusion that the sugar free kool-aid is probably making her
poops liquid (a known effect of some artificial sweetners fo some people. I
didn't mean to buy the sugar free for that reason.) It was her realization,
after we were talking over all that she had consumed over several days. I
won't have to then restrict her kool aid consumption. She will happily do
that for herself - unless she feels constipated. Then she might see it
medicinally.
She would not be happy if I were directing her not to have kool aid. She
wouldn't like being told much more than she wouldn't like tummyache. That is
something that is inside her, Who She Is.
There have been moments in my earlier life here on these lists with a
school-age unschooler for now 5 years (counting Kindergarten) when I have
had a certain amount of frustration because it seemed like I was doing all
the same things, broadly, as Sandra, but my little girl wasn't becoming as
sweet and easy going as Holly. Jayn almost never in her life just says yes.
Comparing one kid to another isn't a path to inner peace.
Unschooling doesn't magically change your child's temperament. It doesn't
magically make a strong willed child into an easy going child. It can
support your child's strong will, so that they get to be as happy and feel
as easy going inside themselves as an easy going kid.
Unschooling allows me to look with wonder and joy at my real child, who will
never be Holly but I think is just as cool in her own way. She will grow up
knowing herself, what she needs to be happy and what she needs to do when
she feels frustrated and unhappy.
For me, a battle over soda, or any food, is just not worth it.
<<< His reaction was extreme for a 12-year-old >>>>
12 is often the start of puberty. It's likely to be a relatively volatile
age in any kid.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Marina DeLuca-Howard
>i also made my own pomegranate syrup this christmas, (really really easy),using juice and sugar and >water and lemon, and then mixed some with
sparkling water and my daughter said it was the best >drink ever. like an
italian soda.
Yummy, that sounds sooo good.
>All I want is for my son not to get diabetes, which runs in our family, orbecome obese, which surely >would happen if he were to continue drinking
nothing but soda, as he has done this past week. I have >let him make his
choices, and now I'm way past my comfort zone, I'm worried, and I don't know
what >to do
I am not sure you can prevent diabetes by banning soda. Its not quite the
same as stopping a child from drinking rat poison. You know if you drink
the poison you die. If you jump out a window you die. There are a lot of
people pushing ideas about health right now.
I know there was one small town in Italy fifteen plus years ago with really
bad diets, really heavy smoking and drinking but really low rates of heart
attacks. Researchers studied and studied the population. Turned out they
were all related and had inherited the bad diet and the genes to thrive with
it!
Right now we are all supposed to be on the quest to eat properly as a
society--turn on any tv show to see documentaries on the evils of pop, corn
syrup, meat, or even carbs. In most places in the world there isn't enough
food, even what we consider "junk food" or unhealthy food.
But if you are in this dilemma and are looking for permission to stop your
son from drinking soda, I don't think that will happen. Essentially, you
hold the winning hand and you can either trust you son to figure it out or
not. We aren't your conscience, and you need to play the hand as its
dealt. I don't want to tell you what to do. You are obviously torn by who
you want to be and all the doubts. It is better for your son if you figure
this out before you deliver ultimatums. The idea that this week mom is
giving me all I can drink, but next week its nothing but water will drive
him to drink more than he may want in preparation for the coming dry spell.
You cannot get people on this list to agree to stopping your son from
drinking pop. That's okay though. All they give is their experience or
opinion.
You want to call yourself an unschooler. We all get that, but if its
causing you a lot of grief step back and figure out what about this doesn't
sit well with soda pop drinking. You need to ask yourself what is behind
your fears. Can you get your son tested to see if he is at risk for
diabetes? If we guaranteed he couldn't get sick how would you change your
behavior? Maybe that's the thing you need to know. Are you sure this is
not about something other than health?
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***If we guaranteed he couldn't get sick how would you change your
behavior? Maybe that's the thing you need to know. Are you sure this is
not about something other than health?***
If only there was a way to gaurantee health! Something I consider when thinking about something like what my kids eat or drink, is the fact that right now they are alive to tell me what they want and how wonderful that is. How terrible I would feel if one of my kids became terminally ill or died suddenly, and how guilty that would cause me to feel if my last interaction with that child had been shaming them about a beverage and having them run away crying!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
behavior? Maybe that's the thing you need to know. Are you sure this is
not about something other than health?***
If only there was a way to gaurantee health! Something I consider when thinking about something like what my kids eat or drink, is the fact that right now they are alive to tell me what they want and how wonderful that is. How terrible I would feel if one of my kids became terminally ill or died suddenly, and how guilty that would cause me to feel if my last interaction with that child had been shaming them about a beverage and having them run away crying!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sandra has many beautiful stories of Holly, Marty and Kirby
acquiescing
graciously to her few requests, because of the long build up of trust
between her and her kids. She didn't have years of control to undo.-=-
I don't think these qualify at all as "beautiful" stories, but there
were three times during last week's symposium that I told Marty to do
something. Twice he did it. Once he didn't.
The first was when Joyce was talking. I wanted him to sit back down
because I was trying to take his picture but he hadn't known it. It
made Pam laugh and Joyce said we couldn't laugh unless she had said
something funny, so Pam explained.
Here's the photo I took after I told him to Sit Down! (and he did)
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/SandraDodd/New%20Mexico/SantaFe/SUSS2010/kdk_2138.jpg
I had wanted a photo of his hat and Rosie's. I didn't mean to disrupt
Joyce's talk.
During the teen panel, at some point, Marty put his foot up on the
table and I said "Marty, don't," from across the room. He took his
foot down.
Oh. I had told him quietly at some point not to lean back in his
chair, before they started. Sometime during their talk he totally
tipped the chair back and fell. So that's one of those times God took
my side and dumped Marty (gently, and humorously) on his butt, so
that's more powerful than me having nagged and insisted. I got to be
on Marty's team AND "be right." But I wouldn't wish it in any case of
disease, death, or loss of an eye.
And then while I was speaking once he was flipping cards up in the
air, and they were some of the special poker cards Kirby had gotten
for Christmas from Blizzard, where he works. I asked Marty if he'd
like some regular cards to do that with, and he said no. That wasn't
a big deal. I could have made a big deal. If Kirby had been in the
room and said "stop," Marty would've. I'm not sure Kirby would've
said stop. No cards were harmed. No relationships were harmed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
acquiescing
graciously to her few requests, because of the long build up of trust
between her and her kids. She didn't have years of control to undo.-=-
I don't think these qualify at all as "beautiful" stories, but there
were three times during last week's symposium that I told Marty to do
something. Twice he did it. Once he didn't.
The first was when Joyce was talking. I wanted him to sit back down
because I was trying to take his picture but he hadn't known it. It
made Pam laugh and Joyce said we couldn't laugh unless she had said
something funny, so Pam explained.
Here's the photo I took after I told him to Sit Down! (and he did)
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/SandraDodd/New%20Mexico/SantaFe/SUSS2010/kdk_2138.jpg
I had wanted a photo of his hat and Rosie's. I didn't mean to disrupt
Joyce's talk.
During the teen panel, at some point, Marty put his foot up on the
table and I said "Marty, don't," from across the room. He took his
foot down.
Oh. I had told him quietly at some point not to lean back in his
chair, before they started. Sometime during their talk he totally
tipped the chair back and fell. So that's one of those times God took
my side and dumped Marty (gently, and humorously) on his butt, so
that's more powerful than me having nagged and insisted. I got to be
on Marty's team AND "be right." But I wouldn't wish it in any case of
disease, death, or loss of an eye.
And then while I was speaking once he was flipping cards up in the
air, and they were some of the special poker cards Kirby had gotten
for Christmas from Blizzard, where he works. I asked Marty if he'd
like some regular cards to do that with, and he said no. That wasn't
a big deal. I could have made a big deal. If Kirby had been in the
room and said "stop," Marty would've. I'm not sure Kirby would've
said stop. No cards were harmed. No relationships were harmed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am not sure you can prevent diabetes by banning soda. Its not
quite the
same as stopping a child from drinking rat poison. You know if you drink
the poison you die. If you jump out a window you die. -=-
Depends on the rat poison, the amount, the window, its height, what's
below, the randomness of the fall... Could just be sick, stomach pump,
broken arm, paralyzation. Those aren't "for sure" either.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
quite the
same as stopping a child from drinking rat poison. You know if you drink
the poison you die. If you jump out a window you die. -=-
Depends on the rat poison, the amount, the window, its height, what's
below, the randomness of the fall... Could just be sick, stomach pump,
broken arm, paralyzation. Those aren't "for sure" either.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
okay...guilty of hyperbole, again<lol>...all things being equal you drink
rat poison instead of pop and in the same quantity and the result is
definitely unhealthy. The goal of the poison is to kill the rats, so
ingesting it is not good.
I was thinking about risky behavior. I think the example on this list last
year was about the Grand Canyon and tree climbing. Remember? Some risk is
part of freedom, but it is about acceptable risks and degree of danger. I
don't think I am phrasing the ideas in a coherent manner, sorry.
Marina
2010/1/13 Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rat poison instead of pop and in the same quantity and the result is
definitely unhealthy. The goal of the poison is to kill the rats, so
ingesting it is not good.
I was thinking about risky behavior. I think the example on this list last
year was about the Grand Canyon and tree climbing. Remember? Some risk is
part of freedom, but it is about acceptable risks and degree of danger. I
don't think I am phrasing the ideas in a coherent manner, sorry.
Marina
2010/1/13 Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
>--
>
> -=-I am not sure you can prevent diabetes by banning soda. Its not
> quite the
> same as stopping a child from drinking rat poison. You know if you drink
> the poison you die. If you jump out a window you die. -=-
>
> Depends on the rat poison, the amount, the window, its height, what's
> below, the randomness of the fall... Could just be sick, stomach pump,
> broken arm, paralyzation. Those aren't "for sure" either.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
<<< His reaction was extreme for a 12-year-old >>>>
***12 is often the start of puberty. It's likely to be a relatively volatile
age in any kid.***
Puberty is unsettling to any kid that's going through it! What I've heard, from boys especially, is that they fight more with their parents during and after because their thoughts and needs aren't being acknowledged in the manner in which they should be. Where previously, they felt like kids and accepted parents laying down the law, but during and after puberty, they don't FEEL like kids anymore and they'd like their ideas and thoughts to be acknowledged as equally valid as any other non-kid person. I'm paraphrasing what I've heard repeatedly among teen boys. I'm sure there are girls that go through that too, but it's been more commonly expressed among the boys that I've talked to.
Moms with 12 yr old boys aren't raising kids anymore, they are helping to raise men. They WILL distance themselves greatly unless moms can back off and be more aware of her actions and more mindful of the relationship that's being created.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***12 is often the start of puberty. It's likely to be a relatively volatile
age in any kid.***
Puberty is unsettling to any kid that's going through it! What I've heard, from boys especially, is that they fight more with their parents during and after because their thoughts and needs aren't being acknowledged in the manner in which they should be. Where previously, they felt like kids and accepted parents laying down the law, but during and after puberty, they don't FEEL like kids anymore and they'd like their ideas and thoughts to be acknowledged as equally valid as any other non-kid person. I'm paraphrasing what I've heard repeatedly among teen boys. I'm sure there are girls that go through that too, but it's been more commonly expressed among the boys that I've talked to.
Moms with 12 yr old boys aren't raising kids anymore, they are helping to raise men. They WILL distance themselves greatly unless moms can back off and be more aware of her actions and more mindful of the relationship that's being created.
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Marina DeLuca-Howard
Teen boys need lots of calories. I have one who is fourteen years old;)
I often think that the fast food market that developed in the early 1950's
hasn't been examined from that perspective--that many of the people in that
population were growing teen boys, who needed cheap and filling
food. We have soda pop, because they couldn't drink hard liquor and lots of
burgers and fries entrees because their growing bodies needed the calories!
Eating that way as an older person though is probably going to lead to
unwanted weight gain.
Marina
2010/1/13 Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
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I often think that the fast food market that developed in the early 1950's
hasn't been examined from that perspective--that many of the people in that
population were growing teen boys, who needed cheap and filling
food. We have soda pop, because they couldn't drink hard liquor and lots of
burgers and fries entrees because their growing bodies needed the calories!
Eating that way as an older person though is probably going to lead to
unwanted weight gain.
Marina
2010/1/13 Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
>--
>
> <<< His reaction was extreme for a 12-year-old >>>>
>
> ***12 is often the start of puberty. It's likely to be a relatively
> volatile
> age in any kid.***
>
> Puberty is unsettling to any kid that's going through it! What I've heard,
> from boys especially, is that they fight more with their parents during and
> after because their thoughts and needs aren't being acknowledged in the
> manner in which they should be. Where previously, they felt like kids and
> accepted parents laying down the law, but during and after puberty, they
> don't FEEL like kids anymore and they'd like their ideas and thoughts to be
> acknowledged as equally valid as any other non-kid person. I'm paraphrasing
> what I've heard repeatedly among teen boys. I'm sure there are girls that
> go through that too, but it's been more commonly expressed among the boys
> that I've talked to.
>
> Moms with 12 yr old boys aren't raising kids anymore, they are helping to
> raise men. They WILL distance themselves greatly unless moms can back off
> and be more aware of her actions and more mindful of the relationship that's
> being created.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
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Joanna
> After the symposium, people gave me leftover groceries. Lots ofOoooo! I'm jumping up and down inside with happiness about what you did with my leftover cream!!! I hate throwing good food away (my thing, not a hang-up from childhood <g>) and was so glad to pass it on.
> bread, lots of milk (and cream and half and half) so in order to make
> room in the fridge, I made bread pudding. The kids really like that.
>
And so glad it got passed and shared in your family through the yummy bread pudding!
Joanna