"Unschooling Land"
Sandra Dodd
The symposium is over, but I'm still in Santa Fe to recover some, and
to take Joyce, Carl and Kathryn to the airport tomorrow.
Holly wrote this in an online journal, of the symposium:
"I like it because most of what is being discussed is Unschoolers in
the real world as opposed to Unschoolers in Unschooling Land. I'm
happy living in reality, myself."
I know what she means, and I find it very interesting. She's 18.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to take Joyce, Carl and Kathryn to the airport tomorrow.
Holly wrote this in an online journal, of the symposium:
"I like it because most of what is being discussed is Unschoolers in
the real world as opposed to Unschoolers in Unschooling Land. I'm
happy living in reality, myself."
I know what she means, and I find it very interesting. She's 18.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristi
> "I like it because most of what is being discussed is Unschoolers inReality is so...real. And it was so nice to see real kids talking about their real reality. Yesterday afternoon's discussion was pretty neat, and anyone present could not argue with the fact that these amazing, inspiring, beautiful, and real unschooled kids are indeed living their reality day to day. Really and for reals. It was really cool to hear the Sorooshians talk about their lives, and to hear the Dodds talk about their lives and Ms. Fetteroll talk about her life, and to know that kids that have lives without school become real people who do real things every day. For some reason I find it incomprehensible that there are folks out there that want to argue that concept.
> the real world as opposed to Unschoolers in Unschooling Land. I'm
> happy living in reality, myself."
I wish I'd had a bit more time to really get into meaningful discussions with your kids, Pam's kids, Joyce's kid, plus all their parents, and everyone else. Time constraints and being a commuter rather than staying on-site contributed to that. But I'm thankful for the exchanges I was able to attend.
I was beyond intrigued by the Sorooshian girls' standards of unschooling families, and I'm certain that we don't measure up at the moment. The parenting path I've taken has had so many twists, turns, hills, and detours. I started out open-minded, patient, and loving, but clouded with the baggage of my own conventional childhood upbringing. I do know, however, where we strive to be. I'm certain that due to hard work, diligence, patience, love, and the ability to maintain an open mind my family will one day achieve the standard these girls speak of. For my girls' sake I work towards that.
For us, the Unschooling part comes easy. I have no qualms about cleaning up messes, tv, video games, play all day, etc. That's easy. For us, the challenges are mostly that Mom is the boat-floater, and therefore out of the home for about 28 hours per week. Thankfully we have both sets of grandparents close by, and they are all supportive. Even though the grandparents have different methods for dealing with day-to-day life, I'm certain their input is valuable. This adventure is just that, and having just met all these remarkable kids, teens, young adults, and their parents at the conference I am newly rejuvenated and inspired.
Thanks for putting this on, Sandra, and thanks to all the presenters.
Shira Rocklin
"the Sorooshian girls' standards of unschooling families"
can you elaborate on this? I'm intrigued.
can you elaborate on this? I'm intrigued.
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/10/2010 5:27 PM, Kristi wrote:
California. At the symposium, Sandra said that Rosie had been at a
conference and had said that Sandra and I were the only real unschooling
parents there. Something like that. Rosie says she's a little
embarrassed that she'd said that, but that I should mention that it was
hyperbole and she was making a point. (Which I'll get to below.)
We've been to a zillion conferences, but I know which one that was ---
it was one where a lot of local people who were not actually practicing
unschoolers had come and we also had, for some reason, a lot of contact
with those particular parents (who had young children, by the way).
There was quite a bit of telling children what to eat and what to do and
when to sleep and there was open talk, among the parents, about how they
would never allow their children to watch television or eat sugar, etc.
One of the parents sat at dinner and argued with us quite vociferously
about the need for regular bedtimes.
Anyway - as we were driving home, she said she wanted to clarify that
she didn't mean that she was going around judging whether someone is or
isn't a good unschooling parent or not, but that HER idea of what
unschooling is was not what these other parents seemed to think it is.
That's the point - these kids don't have the baggage that interferes
with clarity of vision in seeing all, and I mean ALL, the logical ways
that unschooling principles apply. To them, it seems just completely
inexplicable that someone would understand that forcing reading is a bad
idea and not understand that trying to enforce arbitrary bedtimes or
controlling what a child eats are, too.
-pam
> I was beyond intrigued by the Sorooshian girls' standards of unschooling families, and I'm certain that we don't measure up at the moment.Rosie and Cyrus and I are in Flagstaff - on our way back to So
California. At the symposium, Sandra said that Rosie had been at a
conference and had said that Sandra and I were the only real unschooling
parents there. Something like that. Rosie says she's a little
embarrassed that she'd said that, but that I should mention that it was
hyperbole and she was making a point. (Which I'll get to below.)
We've been to a zillion conferences, but I know which one that was ---
it was one where a lot of local people who were not actually practicing
unschoolers had come and we also had, for some reason, a lot of contact
with those particular parents (who had young children, by the way).
There was quite a bit of telling children what to eat and what to do and
when to sleep and there was open talk, among the parents, about how they
would never allow their children to watch television or eat sugar, etc.
One of the parents sat at dinner and argued with us quite vociferously
about the need for regular bedtimes.
Anyway - as we were driving home, she said she wanted to clarify that
she didn't mean that she was going around judging whether someone is or
isn't a good unschooling parent or not, but that HER idea of what
unschooling is was not what these other parents seemed to think it is.
That's the point - these kids don't have the baggage that interferes
with clarity of vision in seeing all, and I mean ALL, the logical ways
that unschooling principles apply. To them, it seems just completely
inexplicable that someone would understand that forcing reading is a bad
idea and not understand that trying to enforce arbitrary bedtimes or
controlling what a child eats are, too.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/11/2010 5:24 AM, Shira Rocklin wrote:
prevent them from seeing how unschooling principles apply to certain
things. They go so far, but they can't let go of being controlling
about certain things. Also, she noticed that lots of parents revert to
more conventional parenting when under some kind of stress.
Very true - it is what a lot of this list is about, right?
The thing that is interesting, though, is that these next generation
kids (unschooled and now old enough to be thinking about parenting kids
of their own), just have so much more clarity in what makes unschooling
sense. They see through a much more clear lens.
It is like me and how I think of spanking. I grew up with no spanking,
ever. I witness it a few times and heard friend's parents threatening
it, and the idea of it just kind of sickened me and I avoided those
households where it was a constant threat. They scared me.
I have never one single time had an urge to strike a child - it isn't in
my repertoire. My own kids are horrified and there is no way they could
spank their children.
I think unschooling will be a bit like that - there are things that just
don't enter into their mind as to how children should be treated. They
won't belittle them, they won't shame them, they will be generous and
supportive, and it won't be hard for them to be that way, it will just
make sense, it will be how they "are" insteaed of how they are trying to
behave.
-pam
-pam
> "the Sorooshian girls' standards of unschooling families"It was Rosie and she meant that people seem to have hang-ups that
>
> can you elaborate on this? I'm intrigued.
>
>
prevent them from seeing how unschooling principles apply to certain
things. They go so far, but they can't let go of being controlling
about certain things. Also, she noticed that lots of parents revert to
more conventional parenting when under some kind of stress.
Very true - it is what a lot of this list is about, right?
The thing that is interesting, though, is that these next generation
kids (unschooled and now old enough to be thinking about parenting kids
of their own), just have so much more clarity in what makes unschooling
sense. They see through a much more clear lens.
It is like me and how I think of spanking. I grew up with no spanking,
ever. I witness it a few times and heard friend's parents threatening
it, and the idea of it just kind of sickened me and I avoided those
households where it was a constant threat. They scared me.
I have never one single time had an urge to strike a child - it isn't in
my repertoire. My own kids are horrified and there is no way they could
spank their children.
I think unschooling will be a bit like that - there are things that just
don't enter into their mind as to how children should be treated. They
won't belittle them, they won't shame them, they will be generous and
supportive, and it won't be hard for them to be that way, it will just
make sense, it will be how they "are" insteaed of how they are trying to
behave.
-pam
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think unschooling will be a bit like that - there are things that
just
don't enter into their mind as to how children should be treated. They
won't belittle them, they won't shame them, they will be generous and
supportive, and it won't be hard for them to be that way, it will just
make sense, it will be how they "are" instead of how they are trying to
behave.-=-
That's powerful.
Some people start out acting like unschoolers (and "fake it til you
make it" can work in some ways), but they don't really feel it. They
aren't making direct unschooling choices yet.
Many other newish unschoolers won't spot it, but Rosie and Holly do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
just
don't enter into their mind as to how children should be treated. They
won't belittle them, they won't shame them, they will be generous and
supportive, and it won't be hard for them to be that way, it will just
make sense, it will be how they "are" instead of how they are trying to
behave.-=-
That's powerful.
Some people start out acting like unschoolers (and "fake it til you
make it" can work in some ways), but they don't really feel it. They
aren't making direct unschooling choices yet.
Many other newish unschoolers won't spot it, but Rosie and Holly do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
momsclubmh
I'm new here and I was wondering about the symposium. It sounds neat. Do you have it every year? Is it always in the same place? Is there a place I can read more about it?
Thanks,
Pamela
Thanks,
Pamela
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> The symposium is over, but I'm still in Santa Fe to recover some, and
> to take Joyce, Carl and Kathryn to the airport tomorrow.
>
> Holly wrote this in an online journal, of the symposium:
>
> "I like it because most of what is being discussed is Unschoolers in
> the real world as opposed to Unschoolers in Unschooling Land. I'm
> happy living in reality, myself."
>
> I know what she means, and I find it very interesting. She's 18.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Robin Bentley
On Jan 11, 2010, at 10:52 AM, momsclubmh wrote:
This was the symposium's inaugural year and I'm hoping Sandra will
organize a second, but we'll have to wait and see what she thinks. I
don't know if it will be in Santa Fe again, if there is another.
You can read the information leading up to the symposium here, though,
to get a sense of what it's about:
http://sandradodd.com/suss/
Robin B.
> I'm new here and I was wondering about the symposium. It soundsIt *was* very cool!
> neat. Do you have it every year? Is it always in the same place? Is
> there a place I can read more about it?
>
This was the symposium's inaugural year and I'm hoping Sandra will
organize a second, but we'll have to wait and see what she thinks. I
don't know if it will be in Santa Fe again, if there is another.
You can read the information leading up to the symposium here, though,
to get a sense of what it's about:
http://sandradodd.com/suss/
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm new here and I was wondering about the symposium. It sounds
neat. Do you have it every year? Is it always in the same place? Is
there a place I can read more about it?-=-
That was a one-shot deal. If there's another one it won't be the same
focus, even if it's in the same place.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
neat. Do you have it every year? Is it always in the same place? Is
there a place I can read more about it?-=-
That was a one-shot deal. If there's another one it won't be the same
focus, even if it's in the same place.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Kristi wrote:
reach the teen years. My son, who is 16, and my oldest, has had some
amazing experiences going out there and interacting with people and
being really well recieved. There have been some challenges, too, which
has led to lots of really interesting discussion. Understanding why
people act in ways that can be so unpleasant has been hard. Getting out
there and seeing that he is competent and even exceptionally talented in
some things, has been a huge part of it, though, and in general he has a
positive and excited outlook on the future, and mostly positive
experiences with people.
I had discussion with some other homeschooling moms the other day- who
are either unschooling or seriously trying it on. My statement was that
uschooled teens often APPEAR to be exceptional to people in the "real"
world. My proof of that is my own children, and the kids I meet, and
stories I hear. Another mom said she gave up on the idea that her kids
would BE exceptional just because they were unschooled. I understand her
point that we should not expect them to excel in real world ways,
neccesarily, though they might. And that there is no way to be
exceptional in any absolute way, it really is about how others perceive
you. And I am perfectly willing to admit that I see my kids and other
unschooled kids as talented and amazing partly because of how I am
looking at them, and partly because they just ARE. And when kids feel
you percieving them from this point of view- they usually respond well.
I see this in the difference between how my kids respond to me, and his
dad. His dad is learning, but still at times can be very judgemental,
and he gets a very bad reponse from the kids when looking at them that way.
The ways in which kids can be exceptional and amazing can be infinite.
Exceptional in their skill or talent at what they love to do,
exceptional in their ability to understand themselves, to relate to
others, to just enjoy their lives, exceptionally lovely to be around.
My son was trying out a new soccer team - he was one of the less skilled
players. Many of parents of the kids on that team were very convinced
that their kids are exceptional. It seemed like a pretty good thing for
many of the kids- though some of the parents did seem pretty pushy, and
very negative when their kids made mistakes. Though not all - some of
them were very loving and obviously willing to go to great lengths to
support their kids in athletics, at least. And the way that these
parents see their kids has gone a really long way to allowing them to
see them selves as capable, and their lives as full of possibility. Kids
like the kids on the soccer team, who are encouraged in their athletic
and academic ability, are given that positive view of themselves as
default, because it is what the larger society values, and parental
support helps even more. Unschooling parents can give their kids that
positive view of themselves no matter what their strengths and interests
are. That makes a huge difference to a kid. For an unschooling kid, who
hasn't gone out into the real world as much, it is even bigger, because
their parents are such a large part of their world. If a kid whose
parents are supportive is in a school environment, and their strengths
are not those typically valued in that environment, the parents support
does help, but there is still a lot of negative that kid is getting
every day.
Unschoolers have time to get really good at something, in a relaxed way,
when they want to. Often kids who are excelling in school, athletics, or
classical music, for example, have really incredibly packed schedules.
These kids can get really good at things, too, but I doubt they have the
time to proceed as thoughtfully as an unschooled kid.
Just some thoughts- but something about unschooling CAN be so powerful -
and it has such excellent "results", that can be perceived by just about
anyone. It depends on how it is done. I certainly know families who are
unschooling in some way, but are very negative towards their kids,
dispointed and adversarial. That doesn't have such good results.
But in the end, I do it for the every day result of a good relationship.
It is really nice that it also can work in so well in a real world
context. And important, for more people wanting to try it and more happy
kids.
Heather (in NY)
>Our interactions with the "real" world have been REALLY good as my kids
>
> Reality is so...real. And it was so nice to see real kids talking
> about their real reality. Yesterday afternoon's discussion was pretty
> neat, and anyone present could not argue with the fact that these
> amazing, inspiring, beautiful, and real unschooled kids are indeed
> living their reality day to day.
>
reach the teen years. My son, who is 16, and my oldest, has had some
amazing experiences going out there and interacting with people and
being really well recieved. There have been some challenges, too, which
has led to lots of really interesting discussion. Understanding why
people act in ways that can be so unpleasant has been hard. Getting out
there and seeing that he is competent and even exceptionally talented in
some things, has been a huge part of it, though, and in general he has a
positive and excited outlook on the future, and mostly positive
experiences with people.
I had discussion with some other homeschooling moms the other day- who
are either unschooling or seriously trying it on. My statement was that
uschooled teens often APPEAR to be exceptional to people in the "real"
world. My proof of that is my own children, and the kids I meet, and
stories I hear. Another mom said she gave up on the idea that her kids
would BE exceptional just because they were unschooled. I understand her
point that we should not expect them to excel in real world ways,
neccesarily, though they might. And that there is no way to be
exceptional in any absolute way, it really is about how others perceive
you. And I am perfectly willing to admit that I see my kids and other
unschooled kids as talented and amazing partly because of how I am
looking at them, and partly because they just ARE. And when kids feel
you percieving them from this point of view- they usually respond well.
I see this in the difference between how my kids respond to me, and his
dad. His dad is learning, but still at times can be very judgemental,
and he gets a very bad reponse from the kids when looking at them that way.
The ways in which kids can be exceptional and amazing can be infinite.
Exceptional in their skill or talent at what they love to do,
exceptional in their ability to understand themselves, to relate to
others, to just enjoy their lives, exceptionally lovely to be around.
My son was trying out a new soccer team - he was one of the less skilled
players. Many of parents of the kids on that team were very convinced
that their kids are exceptional. It seemed like a pretty good thing for
many of the kids- though some of the parents did seem pretty pushy, and
very negative when their kids made mistakes. Though not all - some of
them were very loving and obviously willing to go to great lengths to
support their kids in athletics, at least. And the way that these
parents see their kids has gone a really long way to allowing them to
see them selves as capable, and their lives as full of possibility. Kids
like the kids on the soccer team, who are encouraged in their athletic
and academic ability, are given that positive view of themselves as
default, because it is what the larger society values, and parental
support helps even more. Unschooling parents can give their kids that
positive view of themselves no matter what their strengths and interests
are. That makes a huge difference to a kid. For an unschooling kid, who
hasn't gone out into the real world as much, it is even bigger, because
their parents are such a large part of their world. If a kid whose
parents are supportive is in a school environment, and their strengths
are not those typically valued in that environment, the parents support
does help, but there is still a lot of negative that kid is getting
every day.
Unschoolers have time to get really good at something, in a relaxed way,
when they want to. Often kids who are excelling in school, athletics, or
classical music, for example, have really incredibly packed schedules.
These kids can get really good at things, too, but I doubt they have the
time to proceed as thoughtfully as an unschooled kid.
Just some thoughts- but something about unschooling CAN be so powerful -
and it has such excellent "results", that can be perceived by just about
anyone. It depends on how it is done. I certainly know families who are
unschooling in some way, but are very negative towards their kids,
dispointed and adversarial. That doesn't have such good results.
But in the end, I do it for the every day result of a good relationship.
It is really nice that it also can work in so well in a real world
context. And important, for more people wanting to try it and more happy
kids.
Heather (in NY)
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/12/2010 4:28 AM, Heather wrote:
been dimmed a bit, if not completely extinguished, in schooled kids.
They are recognizable as having "something" different about them. It is
almost always a good thing - although I can imagine that they could also
be challenging in some circumstances.
-pam
> And I am perfectly willing to admit that I see my kids and otherThey are exceptional. They have some kind of light or energy that has
> unschooled kids as talented and amazing partly because of how I am
> looking at them, and partly because they just ARE.
been dimmed a bit, if not completely extinguished, in schooled kids.
They are recognizable as having "something" different about them. It is
almost always a good thing - although I can imagine that they could also
be challenging in some circumstances.
-pam
Kristi
> They are exceptional. They have some kind of light or energy that hasThat was exactly what I saw, tangibly and in a very real way with all the kids and young adults at the conference. There is indeed a brightness to their whole being...their eyes are light, their voices are bright.
> been dimmed a bit, if not completely extinguished, in schooled kids.
>
> They are recognizable as having "something" different about them. It is
> almost always a good thing - although I can imagine that they could also
> be challenging in some circumstances.
Even the youngest school kids I see are losing it. It's what my daughter was losing--in Kindergarten, and it's what made me wake up and say, "NO WAY!" I won't let her light be extinguished. Maybe it's even more prevalently gone in the littlest kids because they are the ones so hugely impacted (the sensitive ones, anyway) by all the things the school does that can squash out that light. From being taken away from Mother, to having to meet strangers who ask them questions, to not knowing whether they can ask to go to the bathroom--or not even knowing where the bathroom is, to having to put up with really talkative kids asking questions, to having to eat at set times...all these things impacted my 6-year old in profound ways that worked towards pushing her away from her own true identity. I'm thankful for all the steps that brought us to this place.
Jenny Cyphers
***My son, who is 16, and my oldest, has had some
amazing experiences going out there and interacting with people and
being really well recieved. There have been some challenges, too, which
has led to lots of really interesting discussion. Understanding why
people act in ways that can be so unpleasant has been hard. ***
Chamille is generally well received when she out and about interacting in real ways in the real world, shocking looks and all! The folks she's had the MOST trouble with are the parents of teens who are NOT unschooling. Everythings she's about suggests to other teens that what their parent's say isn't always truthful and that rules are often lame and meant to be broken. It's not something that she's out to do or present, but her very existence makes it so.
It's helped enormously to understand WHY parents do that to their kids. Even so Chamille understands the why, she still finds it very inexcusable, the ways in which parents treat their teens, her friends that she cares for deeply.
This morning, she was talking about the differences between unschooled teens and schooled teens. She said that while there are plenty of human traits exhibited by all, the unschooled teens aren't cruel to other kids. She's decided that that's the biggest difference. If unschooled teens don't mesh with another unschooled teen, they don't dismiss that person, don't trash that person, but are much more likely to just simply not hang out with them. There isn't badmouthing or trash talking or outright cruelty, and even general acceptance of that person as just someone who doesn't have the same interests. But that is NOT the case for schooled teens at all, there is rampant cruelty of those that are different, or who, in any way are viewed as unacceptable by any other.
She's spent 2 lunches at a local high school to hang out with some of her friends, who she says don't exhibit the kinds of traits most schooled kids do, they just keep to themselves, a small circle of friends. She's watching and observing how teens behave in this larger schooled context and her insight is fascinating.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
amazing experiences going out there and interacting with people and
being really well recieved. There have been some challenges, too, which
has led to lots of really interesting discussion. Understanding why
people act in ways that can be so unpleasant has been hard. ***
Chamille is generally well received when she out and about interacting in real ways in the real world, shocking looks and all! The folks she's had the MOST trouble with are the parents of teens who are NOT unschooling. Everythings she's about suggests to other teens that what their parent's say isn't always truthful and that rules are often lame and meant to be broken. It's not something that she's out to do or present, but her very existence makes it so.
It's helped enormously to understand WHY parents do that to their kids. Even so Chamille understands the why, she still finds it very inexcusable, the ways in which parents treat their teens, her friends that she cares for deeply.
This morning, she was talking about the differences between unschooled teens and schooled teens. She said that while there are plenty of human traits exhibited by all, the unschooled teens aren't cruel to other kids. She's decided that that's the biggest difference. If unschooled teens don't mesh with another unschooled teen, they don't dismiss that person, don't trash that person, but are much more likely to just simply not hang out with them. There isn't badmouthing or trash talking or outright cruelty, and even general acceptance of that person as just someone who doesn't have the same interests. But that is NOT the case for schooled teens at all, there is rampant cruelty of those that are different, or who, in any way are viewed as unacceptable by any other.
She's spent 2 lunches at a local high school to hang out with some of her friends, who she says don't exhibit the kinds of traits most schooled kids do, they just keep to themselves, a small circle of friends. She's watching and observing how teens behave in this larger schooled context and her insight is fascinating.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]