Advice on transitioning to less structure
Hael
Hi all,
I am new here. I will try to give a "brief" background, but it may get long.
My 9-year-old step-son, Julian, lives with my husband and me full-time. He sees his bio-mom about once a week, sometimes less. She is mainly unable and somewhat unwilling to care for him, so parenting falls completely to us. Fine with me. I love him and I want to raise him as I want to raise my biological children. For what it's worth, I have a 9-month-old daughter and another babe on the way.
Julian has been home-schooled since Kindergarten, by his grandmother, my husband's mother. We call her Gram.
Because my husband was busy and the bio-mother was also busy/unavailable, Gram became something of a surrogate mom to Julian when he was very young. When I came along four years ago, this caused some tension, although I think it is getting easier, necessarily.
As I've transitioned from working full-time to being a full-time mom, and as my husband's home business has become more viable, we have less need of Gram's help, and I've become more a part of the home-learning. It started with me taking on Julian's lessons every now and then when Gram couldn't. Believe me, I've wanted to take over for a long time. I can't wait to do so, actually, but we are trying to spare Gram's feelings and help her remain involved in Julian's life.
In the past several months, Gram brought up her hope that I could start to take over more (woo hoo!), and we switched to her coming only three days a week. I've had to take a deep gulp and follow the path she has set -- a very structured curriculum, a set schedule, lots of worksheets and "teaching" and school at home, sitting quietly at a desk for hours and hours. Not my idea of a great learning environment, partially because I see how ineffective it is.
There had been talk of her backing out completely as of the first of the year, this year, as in, a few days -- but she has become more reluctant about that as the deadline approached. At this moment, with us planning to start back on Tuesday, I have no idea what she is planning. She has made comments in the past few weeks about wanting to "crack down" on Julian for some of his writing "laziness," and she wants to do some history stuff.
Sigh.
I tried to talk with my husband about this the other day, and he asked me what I want to do -- I said I want to become Julian's "teacher," for lack of a better word. Facilitator, cruise director, whatever you want to call it. I want to start helping him learn in ways that will keep him interested in learning. I want Gram to be Gram, and I want her to stop beating him over the head with "school."
So, if Gram calls me Monday morning to talk about the plan this week for school, I am going to try to use my assertive self and let her know that we're going to take this week and get started on our own.
I don't want to vent too much here about the things she's done to derail his interest in learning, but...it could fill volumes. She obviously hasn't done it intentionally -- she wants him to love learning just as much as any teacher wants their pupils to love it. But it has become a means to an end for him -- something you do only to avoid punishment or earn reward.
This is a bright, curious (CRAZY curious, never stops asking questions), lovely boy who has learned in the past four homeschooling years that he hates school.
He dreads the word "school." He hates it. He rushes to finish his assignments, because he wants to get to the fun stuff (video games). He looks at anything we get him or anything that could potentially be labeled "educational" with great skepticism. We have a "school room" in our house that he avoids at all costs, unless he is forced to be "at school."
This is the situation I'm starting with.
My plan for Tuesday morning is this: first, Julian is going to help me transplant my old spider plant. Then, we're going to organize the kitchen and the refrigerator together. We're going to get on World of Warcraft together (his beloved game) and start new characters in a new realm with a new guild that I discovered through this list.
We're going to check out his stuff he got for Christmas: a new International Peace Corps Calendar (he had one last year and loved it), his Rush Hour game, code breaker book, etc. We're going to look up some recipes online and decide what to make for supper. I'm going to let him choose if he wants to be in charge of ingredients or tools, or if he wants to do something else. He has been DYING to cook.
We're going to avoid the school room. We're not doing any "subjects."
We're maybe going to look at his Webelos scout book and pick out a craft project (he's been talking to me about clay, and wanting to play with it, so I'm thinking we might go that direction). We might pull out his violin for a little jam session. We'll see what happens.
Maybe we'll go through his new toolbox and all the tools he got for Christmas, maybe think of a woodworking project.
Anyway, this is what I'm thinking for now.
Down the road, I'm going to have to find ways to tell his Gram, somehow politely, that we don't have to answer to her about the way Julian is learning. His dad and I are on the same page. We have a home business based on growing hydroponic lettuce, and this summer, Julian has already decided he's going to grow some of his own crops to sell at market. We really only need to answer to Julian's mom, and I'm sure she's going to be okay with this, even though we may have to submit to some types of testing at some point, to appease her. We'll see what happens.
We live in Indiana, where rules are very relaxed. 180 days of attendance must be documented.
Beyond that, we're on our own. Julian has a million passions, not least of which are blacksmithing, building stuff, playing video games (especially World of Warcraft), cooking, drawing, learning guitar, violin, reading (especially fantasy stuff), growing things with his dad, puzzles and puzzle games...and he LOVES his baby sister, who he wants to help and play with all the time.
I am thinking of turning the school room into a propagation room -- it's got a great floor to ceiling south-facing window. I'm going to just get rid of his bad associations with school and change it completely.
I anticipate a few things at the start: Julian will say, "Wait, aren't we doing school today?" And he'll think he's "getting away with something," and he'll be all excited to tell Gram that he didn't do anything for school. He'll brag to his older sister, who goes to public school, that he didn't have to do school today.
How do I talk to HIM about this? He will have questions -- many. How do you discuss this with your kids?
I thought about maybe having a heart-to-heart with him about learning -- why we bother learning anything, what is important to know (I have to be careful here; anything that smacks of criticism of his Gram will be quite stoutly defended; I may have to use some more diplomatic language); about how he learned when he was a baby, and how we, his parents, learn as adults -- I am not sure how to approach this.
He is not a lazy boy. He LOVES making lists and checking things off on his lists, especially if he decides what goes on the list.
Anyway, I know our situation is a bit unusual, but any advice is appreciated, and I wanted to introduce our situation because I'll probably be on here a bit.
Thanks for any feedback.
Deb
I am new here. I will try to give a "brief" background, but it may get long.
My 9-year-old step-son, Julian, lives with my husband and me full-time. He sees his bio-mom about once a week, sometimes less. She is mainly unable and somewhat unwilling to care for him, so parenting falls completely to us. Fine with me. I love him and I want to raise him as I want to raise my biological children. For what it's worth, I have a 9-month-old daughter and another babe on the way.
Julian has been home-schooled since Kindergarten, by his grandmother, my husband's mother. We call her Gram.
Because my husband was busy and the bio-mother was also busy/unavailable, Gram became something of a surrogate mom to Julian when he was very young. When I came along four years ago, this caused some tension, although I think it is getting easier, necessarily.
As I've transitioned from working full-time to being a full-time mom, and as my husband's home business has become more viable, we have less need of Gram's help, and I've become more a part of the home-learning. It started with me taking on Julian's lessons every now and then when Gram couldn't. Believe me, I've wanted to take over for a long time. I can't wait to do so, actually, but we are trying to spare Gram's feelings and help her remain involved in Julian's life.
In the past several months, Gram brought up her hope that I could start to take over more (woo hoo!), and we switched to her coming only three days a week. I've had to take a deep gulp and follow the path she has set -- a very structured curriculum, a set schedule, lots of worksheets and "teaching" and school at home, sitting quietly at a desk for hours and hours. Not my idea of a great learning environment, partially because I see how ineffective it is.
There had been talk of her backing out completely as of the first of the year, this year, as in, a few days -- but she has become more reluctant about that as the deadline approached. At this moment, with us planning to start back on Tuesday, I have no idea what she is planning. She has made comments in the past few weeks about wanting to "crack down" on Julian for some of his writing "laziness," and she wants to do some history stuff.
Sigh.
I tried to talk with my husband about this the other day, and he asked me what I want to do -- I said I want to become Julian's "teacher," for lack of a better word. Facilitator, cruise director, whatever you want to call it. I want to start helping him learn in ways that will keep him interested in learning. I want Gram to be Gram, and I want her to stop beating him over the head with "school."
So, if Gram calls me Monday morning to talk about the plan this week for school, I am going to try to use my assertive self and let her know that we're going to take this week and get started on our own.
I don't want to vent too much here about the things she's done to derail his interest in learning, but...it could fill volumes. She obviously hasn't done it intentionally -- she wants him to love learning just as much as any teacher wants their pupils to love it. But it has become a means to an end for him -- something you do only to avoid punishment or earn reward.
This is a bright, curious (CRAZY curious, never stops asking questions), lovely boy who has learned in the past four homeschooling years that he hates school.
He dreads the word "school." He hates it. He rushes to finish his assignments, because he wants to get to the fun stuff (video games). He looks at anything we get him or anything that could potentially be labeled "educational" with great skepticism. We have a "school room" in our house that he avoids at all costs, unless he is forced to be "at school."
This is the situation I'm starting with.
My plan for Tuesday morning is this: first, Julian is going to help me transplant my old spider plant. Then, we're going to organize the kitchen and the refrigerator together. We're going to get on World of Warcraft together (his beloved game) and start new characters in a new realm with a new guild that I discovered through this list.
We're going to check out his stuff he got for Christmas: a new International Peace Corps Calendar (he had one last year and loved it), his Rush Hour game, code breaker book, etc. We're going to look up some recipes online and decide what to make for supper. I'm going to let him choose if he wants to be in charge of ingredients or tools, or if he wants to do something else. He has been DYING to cook.
We're going to avoid the school room. We're not doing any "subjects."
We're maybe going to look at his Webelos scout book and pick out a craft project (he's been talking to me about clay, and wanting to play with it, so I'm thinking we might go that direction). We might pull out his violin for a little jam session. We'll see what happens.
Maybe we'll go through his new toolbox and all the tools he got for Christmas, maybe think of a woodworking project.
Anyway, this is what I'm thinking for now.
Down the road, I'm going to have to find ways to tell his Gram, somehow politely, that we don't have to answer to her about the way Julian is learning. His dad and I are on the same page. We have a home business based on growing hydroponic lettuce, and this summer, Julian has already decided he's going to grow some of his own crops to sell at market. We really only need to answer to Julian's mom, and I'm sure she's going to be okay with this, even though we may have to submit to some types of testing at some point, to appease her. We'll see what happens.
We live in Indiana, where rules are very relaxed. 180 days of attendance must be documented.
Beyond that, we're on our own. Julian has a million passions, not least of which are blacksmithing, building stuff, playing video games (especially World of Warcraft), cooking, drawing, learning guitar, violin, reading (especially fantasy stuff), growing things with his dad, puzzles and puzzle games...and he LOVES his baby sister, who he wants to help and play with all the time.
I am thinking of turning the school room into a propagation room -- it's got a great floor to ceiling south-facing window. I'm going to just get rid of his bad associations with school and change it completely.
I anticipate a few things at the start: Julian will say, "Wait, aren't we doing school today?" And he'll think he's "getting away with something," and he'll be all excited to tell Gram that he didn't do anything for school. He'll brag to his older sister, who goes to public school, that he didn't have to do school today.
How do I talk to HIM about this? He will have questions -- many. How do you discuss this with your kids?
I thought about maybe having a heart-to-heart with him about learning -- why we bother learning anything, what is important to know (I have to be careful here; anything that smacks of criticism of his Gram will be quite stoutly defended; I may have to use some more diplomatic language); about how he learned when he was a baby, and how we, his parents, learn as adults -- I am not sure how to approach this.
He is not a lazy boy. He LOVES making lists and checking things off on his lists, especially if he decides what goes on the list.
Anyway, I know our situation is a bit unusual, but any advice is appreciated, and I wanted to introduce our situation because I'll probably be on here a bit.
Thanks for any feedback.
Deb
Hael
By the way, I *have* been reading a lot of de-schooling articles and advice, because I know that's where we are.
I think my main question is how to talk to J about this, how to answer his questions, and how to remove his fear of and skepticism about all things related to learning.
I don't know that I'm ok with just saying, hey you can do whatever you want for however long you need until whenever.
I know you're supposed to trust that your kids will get what they need and when, but I KNOW there are things he wants to learn, and I know that if I facilitate, he will grab on. It's just a matter of taking the "S" word out of it, and helping him realize I'm not trying to trick him.
If this means I'm an impatient de-schooler, so be it.
Maybe I should have asked for advice on including the kiddo in the discussion.
Thanks,
Deb
I think my main question is how to talk to J about this, how to answer his questions, and how to remove his fear of and skepticism about all things related to learning.
I don't know that I'm ok with just saying, hey you can do whatever you want for however long you need until whenever.
I know you're supposed to trust that your kids will get what they need and when, but I KNOW there are things he wants to learn, and I know that if I facilitate, he will grab on. It's just a matter of taking the "S" word out of it, and helping him realize I'm not trying to trick him.
If this means I'm an impatient de-schooler, so be it.
Maybe I should have asked for advice on including the kiddo in the discussion.
Thanks,
Deb
Jenny Cyphers
My primary question, after reading the whole post is this; What does Julian want to do? Everything else you wrote was about what all the various adults in his life want to do with and for him, but very little was said about what Julian wants, besides playing video games, which is definitely a starting place.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hael
Well, I'm sitting here pondering this without him here, partially because I want to be ready to talk with him about it when he gets back Monday.
Some of my ideas are anticipation of things I plan to do, and will offer him to help me. "Julian, I'm going to work on transplanting my spider plant -- you want to help?"
Part of the problem with this approach is that he has been coerced and manipulated much of his life -- it is dangerous for him to tell the adults in his life, "I don't really feel like doing that." He has been given false choices all the way -- looks like a choice, sounds like a choice, but when he "chooses" the wrong way, he gets a guilt trip or an otherwise pouty, dissatisfied grownup. Love has always been doled out conditionally.
He is a people-pleaser for sure, always wanting to avoid conflict, and he has learned over the years that to do so, the safe answer is, "well, okay."
My husband, who was raised in a similar setup, is starting to realize how manipulative it is -- but old habits die hard.
I was raised in a no choice environment; it wasn't cruel, just clearly adult-centered. "You don't get a vote," was a comment regularly spoken by the adults. I do not believe in this at all, and refuse to let any variant of that phrase ever come out of my mouth.
So, we are both still learning how to provide choice, my husband is trying to learn to love unconditionally (now, that is a difficult thing to learn after 37 years of judgment and conditional relationships), and we are trying to rid our nest of Gram, who will never change and who causes great strife and pain whenever she is here.
Of course the other variable is bio-mom, but all we can do is provide a safe, loving haven for Julian here, help him realize that our way is different here, and that he will always encounter situations and people that he cannot control.
Julian may spend many many hours in video game play because I think it is the only place in his life where he is in control, where he has some choice. He does want me to play with him, and so that is a starting point for us.
More later. Baby had me up in the middle of the night. BAck to bed for now.
Deb
Some of my ideas are anticipation of things I plan to do, and will offer him to help me. "Julian, I'm going to work on transplanting my spider plant -- you want to help?"
Part of the problem with this approach is that he has been coerced and manipulated much of his life -- it is dangerous for him to tell the adults in his life, "I don't really feel like doing that." He has been given false choices all the way -- looks like a choice, sounds like a choice, but when he "chooses" the wrong way, he gets a guilt trip or an otherwise pouty, dissatisfied grownup. Love has always been doled out conditionally.
He is a people-pleaser for sure, always wanting to avoid conflict, and he has learned over the years that to do so, the safe answer is, "well, okay."
My husband, who was raised in a similar setup, is starting to realize how manipulative it is -- but old habits die hard.
I was raised in a no choice environment; it wasn't cruel, just clearly adult-centered. "You don't get a vote," was a comment regularly spoken by the adults. I do not believe in this at all, and refuse to let any variant of that phrase ever come out of my mouth.
So, we are both still learning how to provide choice, my husband is trying to learn to love unconditionally (now, that is a difficult thing to learn after 37 years of judgment and conditional relationships), and we are trying to rid our nest of Gram, who will never change and who causes great strife and pain whenever she is here.
Of course the other variable is bio-mom, but all we can do is provide a safe, loving haven for Julian here, help him realize that our way is different here, and that he will always encounter situations and people that he cannot control.
Julian may spend many many hours in video game play because I think it is the only place in his life where he is in control, where he has some choice. He does want me to play with him, and so that is a starting point for us.
More later. Baby had me up in the middle of the night. BAck to bed for now.
Deb
--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> My primary question, after reading the whole post is this; What does Julian want to do?
Pam Sorooshian
I thought your description of how to transition toward unschooling was
really inspiring. It sounded way way overly ambitious, but that's okay,
having a lot of ideas is a really good sign. The list of all the
different things you might do seemed like a month's worth of activity,
to me, but as long as you're easy-going about dropping something and
moving on to something else it is good to have a long list of possible
ideas.
I'd add two things --
First, yes, given his background, I would mention to him that you have a
different attitude about learning than gram, so you'll be doing things
differently. Don't go on - just once in a while acknowledge that, yes,
we're going to be doing a more "modern" approach or something like that.
And, once in a while, if he seems apprehensive about whether he's really
learning, you might say, "I think people learn a LOT from doing things
they enjoy," or "People learn the most when they're having a good time,"
or "Some people don't realize how much can be learned from fun stuff."
You might put a quotation about learning on the fridge. Maybe in July
you can celebrate "Learn Nothing Day" - that's a fun way to make the
point that learning happens all the time.
2. I would tell him that he's really lucky to get the chance to learn
naturally from the things he loves to do and that he should not use it
to make anybody else feel bad - not his gram and not his sister.
-pam
really inspiring. It sounded way way overly ambitious, but that's okay,
having a lot of ideas is a really good sign. The list of all the
different things you might do seemed like a month's worth of activity,
to me, but as long as you're easy-going about dropping something and
moving on to something else it is good to have a long list of possible
ideas.
I'd add two things --
First, yes, given his background, I would mention to him that you have a
different attitude about learning than gram, so you'll be doing things
differently. Don't go on - just once in a while acknowledge that, yes,
we're going to be doing a more "modern" approach or something like that.
And, once in a while, if he seems apprehensive about whether he's really
learning, you might say, "I think people learn a LOT from doing things
they enjoy," or "People learn the most when they're having a good time,"
or "Some people don't realize how much can be learned from fun stuff."
You might put a quotation about learning on the fridge. Maybe in July
you can celebrate "Learn Nothing Day" - that's a fun way to make the
point that learning happens all the time.
2. I would tell him that he's really lucky to get the chance to learn
naturally from the things he loves to do and that he should not use it
to make anybody else feel bad - not his gram and not his sister.
-pam
On 1/3/2010 1:34 AM, Hael wrote:
> Part of the problem with this approach is that he has been coerced and manipulated much of his life -- it is dangerous for him to tell the adults in his life, "I don't really feel like doing that." He has been given false choices all the way -- looks like a choice, sounds like a choice, but when he "chooses" the wrong way, he gets a guilt trip or an otherwise pouty, dissatisfied grownup. Love has always been doled out conditionally.
>
Hael
Pam, thanks for the advice! I had that thought -- overly ambitious -- as I was making the list, and also trying to stay aware that this is *my* list. I'm open to letting some of this stuff wait, and I realize that it's probably more than even I want to try in one week, much less a day, and I love going in-depth with stuff, so we may swim for awhile in some topic or another if it suits us. Someone else made a comment about a whiteboard with a list made by the kid of what they'd like to learn in no particular time-frame. Julian might really like that. No pressure, but some reminders of things he might want to check out. As I said, he loves lists.
I love some of your suggestions for how to talk with him about this. I don't want to insult him or make him feel he's being tricked, and I also like the idea of giving him a bit of food for thought about not rubbing it in anyone's face, but feeling lucky he gets to experiment like this.
I think the quotation idea is a good one -- I'm always using quotes for my own inspiration. Whether he grabs on or not is fine; it will be for me, for my interest, and if he asks about it, so be it.
Thanks again.
Deb
I love some of your suggestions for how to talk with him about this. I don't want to insult him or make him feel he's being tricked, and I also like the idea of giving him a bit of food for thought about not rubbing it in anyone's face, but feeling lucky he gets to experiment like this.
I think the quotation idea is a good one -- I'm always using quotes for my own inspiration. Whether he grabs on or not is fine; it will be for me, for my interest, and if he asks about it, so be it.
Thanks again.
Deb
Joanna
"...and how to remove his fear of and skepticism about all things related to learning"
From your description, the picture I got was of a boy with lots of interests, and of a stepmom who is very keyed into what those interests are. It sounds like a recipe for success to me, and I'm thinking that you don't really have to do anything to "remove" his fear--that will happen as a result of living his life in a fun and supported way.
THAT'S what deschooling is all about--getting to have unpressured time to rediscover the fun.
The only thing I might add would be to point out that it's o.k. to slow it down a little bit. Don't try to replace his Gram's coercion in the traditional style with coercion from you to do all the fun stuff. No one would really want X-mas EVERY day.
It's not only o.k., but essential to have spaces of free, relaxed, dreaming time. My son will appear to be doing nothing for long stretches of time, with other periods of almost frenetic activity. But he always comes away from the quiet times with deeper understandings, insights and amazing questions.
Joanna
From your description, the picture I got was of a boy with lots of interests, and of a stepmom who is very keyed into what those interests are. It sounds like a recipe for success to me, and I'm thinking that you don't really have to do anything to "remove" his fear--that will happen as a result of living his life in a fun and supported way.
THAT'S what deschooling is all about--getting to have unpressured time to rediscover the fun.
The only thing I might add would be to point out that it's o.k. to slow it down a little bit. Don't try to replace his Gram's coercion in the traditional style with coercion from you to do all the fun stuff. No one would really want X-mas EVERY day.
It's not only o.k., but essential to have spaces of free, relaxed, dreaming time. My son will appear to be doing nothing for long stretches of time, with other periods of almost frenetic activity. But he always comes away from the quiet times with deeper understandings, insights and amazing questions.
Joanna
Hael
Here's my quote I'm going to write out and hang in the kitchen:
"Nothing that is worth knowing can be taught."
- Oscar Wilde
I won't beat him over the head with it; just hang it in the place where the calendar used to hang. If he sees it and thinks about it, let him think about it. If he asks something, we'll chat.
Here's another one I love:
"Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful."
Buddha quotes (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)
Love it!
"Nothing that is worth knowing can be taught."
- Oscar Wilde
I won't beat him over the head with it; just hang it in the place where the calendar used to hang. If he sees it and thinks about it, let him think about it. If he asks something, we'll chat.
Here's another one I love:
"Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful."
Buddha quotes (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)
Love it!
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> You might put a quotation about learning on the fridge.