michelespout

Hi! I have been raising my two daughters ( 3 1/2 and 2 1/2) with the concept of "freedom of choice", "respect for the child" , based on Maria Montessori discoveries, since they were born.
I started researching about education even before they were born. I am a high school drop not because I don't like learning or I don't care about education, but simply because I refused to do it the school and teacher's way.
Last summer I started homeschooling them with the Montessori approach, this means I bought some of the materials for them to work with and we had "school time". After a couple of weeks I didn't feel comfortable giving the presentations for the materials, they felt like a lesson.
Unschooling is the way of life I want for our family. I find Maria Montessori concepts are pretty much unschooling anyways. An Authentic Montessori school is a FREE school where kids are allowed to do "nothing" if they choose (only 5% of the Montessori schools in USA stay true to the method, that's pretty low!)
My question is, Has any of you use any Montessori materials as a way for kids to experiment with language or mathematics? I was reading on the "Reading" post Pam was suggesting slips of paper with words on them to practice reading, M Montessori used that exercise a 100 years ago.
M Montessori discovered is easier for kids to learn to read, write and do basic math at an early age ( 3 to 6 years old). Just like is much easier to learn a language when we are this age too.
I just want my kids to learn in a joyful, playful way. If this age is easier for them why not go with nature?
PLEASE KNOW I'M NOT INTO PUSHING. I AM ALL FOR SIMPLY PROVIDING THEM WITH TOOLS THAT THEY ARE FREE TO CHOOSE OR NOT AND LEARN FROM IT. My oldest girl asks about the materials sometimes after all these months she still remembers. The other night when I was reading and she was playing with the Montessori sandpaper letters that I gave back to her that morning, she started a game of looking at a letter in my book and then go and find it in her pile of letters. It was fun!
I really don't know what to do. Should I provide more materials and see what works?
Again, I'm wondering if any of you has used any Montessori materials.
Thank you for your support! Michele

Sandra Dodd

-=- An Authentic Montessori school is a FREE school where kids are
allowed to do "nothing" if they choose (only 5% of the Montessori
schools in USA stay true to the method, that's pretty low!)-=-

I don't believe that to be the case. There are requirements about
activities and cleaning and sandpaper/textured letters and all kinds
of stuff. There might be some time of allowing nothing, but not all
day all the time.

-=-My question is, Has any of you use any Montessori materials as a
way for kids to experiment with language or mathematics?-=-

Instead of experimenting with language or mathematics, unschooling
advocates simply living with and actually using language and
mathematics in natural ways, not with "montessori materials." If
someone uses "educational materials" as toys, great. If the mother
keeps those specially separate and different from other toys, the
mother could use some more deschooling herself.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

-=-"Reading" post Pam was suggesting slips of paper with words on them
to practice reading, M Montessori used that exercise a 100 years ago. -
=-

It's not "an exercise," though, the way Pam recommended it. It's a
set of words the child is learning, or knows how to sight read. It's
a game, like any set of cards can be a game. It can be several
different games, as most sets of cards can be several different
games. If you see it as "an exercise" (part of "experimenting with
language"), you're a giant step away from unschooling. But just one
giant step. <g> Easy to move back this direction.

-=-Again, I'm wondering if any of you has used any Montessori
materials.-=-

Many people have read and experienced (as students or teachers)
Montessori, and there are "montessori materials" that are regular real-
world things. <g>

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele Spout

I brought up the Montessori materials because that's where we started before going for unschooling. I put the materials away after I decided "doing school" was not something I was feeling comfortable doing. My daughter still asks about them so the other day I took them out and let her play with them. I thought, why not? I believe was Pam Sorooshian who wrote in a post "unschooling is not anti-schooling".
In my opinion the "educational toys" they have right now are a bad imitation of Montessori materials, I prefer to have the real thing.
There is an article on your website called "Building an unschooling nest" At the end it says " It isn't all that tricky, though, when you live with a kid and pay attention and care deeply - to keep that child in mind and provide him/her with a pretty steady stream of options/possibilities/ideas/stuff, etc. Invite and offer a lot - it is your job to create a stimulating and interesting environment around her."
In your reply you say "unschooling advocates simply living with and actually using language and mathematics in natural ways" This sounds to me that I should do nothing and just let things happen. This is where I get confuse. Please keep in mind I'm new at this. If I had the answers I wouldn't be coming to you. I'm not trying to challenge your knowledge I'm trying to understand so I can help my daughters the best way I can.
Again, I brought up the Montessori materials because we already have some. It would've been just the same as asking about magnetic letters many people have on their refrigerators, a board game, or anything else that may seem "educational".
--- On Fri, 1/1/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling and Montessori approach (sorry long)
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 6:04 PM







 









-=- An Authentic Montessori school is a FREE school where kids are

allowed to do "nothing" if they choose (only 5% of the Montessori

schools in USA stay true to the method, that's pretty low!)-=-



I don't believe that to be the case. There are requirements about

activities and cleaning and sandpaper/textured letters and all kinds

of stuff. There might be some time of allowing nothing, but not all

day all the time.



-=-My question is, Has any of you use any Montessori materials as a

way for kids to experiment with language or mathematics? -=-



Instead of experimenting with language or mathematics, unschooling

advocates simply living with and actually using language and

mathematics in natural ways, not with "montessori materials." If

someone uses "educational materials" as toys, great. If the mother

keeps those specially separate and different from other toys, the

mother could use some more deschooling herself.



http://sandradodd. com/deschooling



-=-"Reading" post Pam was suggesting slips of paper with words on them

to practice reading, M Montessori used that exercise a 100 years ago. -

=-



It's not "an exercise," though, the way Pam recommended it. It's a

set of words the child is learning, or knows how to sight read. It's

a game, like any set of cards can be a game. It can be several

different games, as most sets of cards can be several different

games. If you see it as "an exercise" (part of "experimenting with

language"), you're a giant step away from unschooling. But just one

giant step. <g> Easy to move back this direction.



-=-Again, I'm wondering if any of you has used any Montessori

materials.-= -



Many people have read and experienced (as students or teachers)

Montessori, and there are "montessori materials" that are regular real-

world things. <g>



Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-it is your job to create a stimulating and interesting environment
around her."-=-

Montessori supplies aren't necessarily more stimulating and
interesting than other things. If they're available and treated as no
more or less "educational" or important than other things, it's
unlikely to cause any problems.

-=-In your reply you say "unschooling advocates simply living with and
actually using language and mathematics in natural ways" This sounds
to me that I should do nothing and just let things happen.-=-

How is that "doing nothing"? If you're being with your children in
stimulating and interesting ways, then that will involve language and
mathematics.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna

>" In my opinion the "educational toys" they have right now are a bad imitation of Montessori materials, I prefer to have the real thing."

Do recognize, though, that many Montessori materials and activities are copies of real life things. Waldorf education has a similar component--kids go to school to do the same things that engaged families already do at home. I had an honest kindergarten teacher tell me once that what Rudolf Steiner set up for younger children was an imitation of home life for children whose parents were working in the factory. Now, however, it is revered as something special because they are activities engaged in with trained teachers.

>" In your reply you say "unschooling advocates simply living with and actually using language and mathematics in natural ways" This sounds to me that I should do nothing and just let things happen. This is where I get confuse."

I don't think anyone is implying that any one thing is "bad" or "good" to do with your daughter--the bad or good quality would come to play in the quality of your relationship. If you are connecting with her over sandpaper letters, that's great--and then the next day when you're out, she may be talking about what she sees on street signs, and you comment back--great. Then she may see something on t.v., or a video game, or a shape in her Eggo waffle, or she might start rhyming letters and words, and you join in and pretty soon you are laughing at the silly sounds coming out--great.

It's about looking for the opportunities that you have all around you. Like seeing with different eyes. That's the doing part for you--seeing things in a fresh, new way and also bringing in things that interest her. Perhaps you know she likes shapes, and textures, and the letters are interesting for her. That's one impulse to pull them out. Another is so that she can learn the shapes of the letters and thereby further her "letter" education. That's a reason, but the first reason is you acting to follow and further her interests, which is on the unschooling track. The second is to further an idea in your head about what she needs to learn, and how she needs to learn it, which might be moving away from unschooling.

Joanna

Joyce Fetteroll

Sandra:
> There are requirements about
> activities and cleaning and sandpaper/textured letters and all kinds
> of stuff.

I read about the history of Montessori years ago and if I'm
remembering correctly, Maria Montessori's original ideas were free
form. It was all about kids playing with real things and learning
through their play. (Her original work was with "warehoused" kids
that had basically been abandoned to the (Italian) state for various
reasons and no one had much hope for.) At some point, though, her son
took over and I think he's the one that turned it into play directed
towards specific discoveries with "self-correcting" equipment.

The Montessori name, I just read, isn't trademarked so there may be
Montessori schools using Maria's original ideas (and other ideas too).

Michele:
> Should I provide more materials and see what works?
>

I think where you're confused is that you have your eye on the end
goal (letter recognition, reading, etc.) and you're wondering if
paving that pathway with Montessori materials and other overtly
educational materials is okay.

But, rather than facing the goal and worrying about the path to get
her there, facilitate her free explorations by supporting what
already interests her and directing interesting things into her life.
Be her partner in discovery, which sometimes means being with her
sharing, sometimes quietly off to the side aware but not interfering.

Provide a rich, varied, interesting life. Engage with her in life and
as you live life. Be interesting and interested. Rather than
metaphorically getting her to build a road to reading, provide access
to interesting things and things that interest her and she'll build
them into roads or towers or tunnels or rocket ships or flower
gardens ... *As a side effect* she'll learn to read and use numbers
and read maps and pick up who George Washington is.

You may need to take off your school glasses to "support what already
interests her". You may have a tendency to see interests that match
things taught in school and dismiss other things as entertainment or
play or fooling around. I think what's confusing about educational
materials is they're designed for one purpose and one goal. They're
often designed not to allow thoughts in take off in directions other
than intended. But you don't need to see them that way! Your daughter
doesn't :-) Sandpaper letters are textures. They're shapes to be
flipped over, turned sideways, upside down and combined. They can be
used like rulers and French curves to trace around. They can be used
for textured drawing (putting paper over them and rubbing with the
side of a crayon). (What will emerge may not be a full letter but
lines and angles and curves and textured blocks of color.) Maybe
she'd enjoy blank pieces of sandpaper to cut her own shapes from.
*And* they're letters to that form words :-)

Whatever she finds interesting, she's learning from. But what
interests her may not be what the materials are intended for. That's
a good thing! But it's also okay to be interested in what they're
intended for too. :-)

Rather than helping her on a pathway to one goal, open up doors to
the world of possibilities. All the basic skills will get picked up
and refined as she explores and looks and and abandons pathways
because they're basic to what we do in life. It will be exactly the
same way she picked up spoken language just by living a life.
Language wasn't the end goal. Getting what she wanted was the end
goal. She used language as a tool to get what she wanted. As a side
effect of using language, she got better at it. And it became a more
effective tool she used more often.

Joyce

Ed Wendell

That is pretty close.

I've been a Montessori Teacher (directress is the "proper" term used by Montessorians) in a public inner city school for 23 years now. I've always said there are two components to Montessori: the philosophy - follow the child, honor the child, respect, child development aspects, etc. THEN there are the materials and lessons. We've had many teachers come through our school that use the materials simply as another curriculum - another catchy / fantastic way to teach - they totally miss out on the philosophy aspect of it all - the most important in my opinion.

Being a public school we have to deal with parent's, the district's and the state's expectations. In a private school they charge a huge tuition so the parents have high expectations. I don't think very many kids would be sitting around doing nothing - What kid would do absolutely nothing all day every day anyway??? In 25 years I've never had a child do absolutely nothing - ;) Not to say that my principal and my parents don't start to grumble if a child colors everyday - I have 2 boys that are doing that very thing this year. Over the years if I've ever had a child that wants to do nothing but color <bwg> all day it is usually a boy that then ends up with beautiful handwriting - spontaneously - Both boys that are coloring right now have started going to the chalk board and copying things they see in the room (writing) I've taught them nothing! <bwg> BUT that is not doing nothing. Trust me children will do something.


Maria Montessori originally set the Children's House up like a mini house. The children cooked and cleaned by choice, they gardened, they took walks outside to explore nature. The elementary program came along later. All the peace education came along as a result of WWll. Montessori was a program that developed over time - all the lessons, materials, etc. If one reads her books you get the sense that in the very beginning it was as much like home as she could replicate with a bunch of children that were being left alone when parents went to work - these children were tearing up the tenement housing and the housing owners hired her to keep the children from tearing up the place. Before that she worked with mentally retarded children - most of the sensorial materials were developed for use with those children in the beginning.

She was actually a medical doctor - she faked being a male to get into medical school and then became the first Italian woman to become a medical doctor. She had her son out of wedlock - which would have been a big deal back then.


Some aspects of Montessori are basically the same as Unschooling - some are not. She talked about how children are like sponges that absorb knowledge - not an empty vessel we must fill up (more like traditional schooling thought). Following the child's interest - some aspects of what unschoolers call strewing can been seen in many Montessori environments. They will learn when they are ready. etc.


I remember in one book she talks about going for a walk with a toddler/preschooler and how if you walked at the child's pace they could/walk for a long time, but they tire quickly if you walk at your normal pace. I liked the concept of child sized equipment for our son. He loved to sweep, shovel snow, garden, cook, wood working, etc. The child sized snow shovel came in handy (still does at age 15.5) for scooping legos into bins!!!! We still have the short handled broom in our coat closet for quick sweep ups. We had/have a small leaf rake, garden hoe, wheel barrow, etc. If Zac said "Let me do it myself." - we found ways for him to do it himself successfully. If he wanted to pour his own milk without help, we'd pour some milk into a small pitcher and then he could pour - without a meltdown because he wanted to do it by himself.


Zachariah has been unschooling since we brought him home mid third grade - he is 15.5 now - wish I'd known about unschooling all along. We had decided to homeschool and I was researching on-line and started reading about unschooling and KNEW I'd found what would fit - that's the short story ;)

Lisa W.








----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Fetteroll

Sandra:
> There are requirements about
> activities and cleaning and sandpaper/textured letters and all kinds
> of stuff.

I read about the history of Montessori years ago and if I'm
remembering correctly, Maria Montessori's original ideas were free
form. It was all about kids playing with real things and learning
through their play. (Her original work was with "warehoused" kids
that had basically been abandoned to the (Italian) state for various
reasons and no one had much hope for.) At some point, though, her son
took over and I think he's the one that turned it into play directed
towards specific discoveries with "self-correcting" equipment.

The Montessori name, I just read, isn't trademarked so there may be
Montessori schools using Maria's original ideas (and other ideas too).



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele Spout

Joyce you said: You may need to take off your school glasses to "support what already interests her". Here I go again with my question.
_ we did Montessori for a couple of weeks last summer
_ I didn't feel comfortable
_ I put materials away
_ MY DAUGHTER KEPT ASKING ABOUT THE MATERIALS
_ The other morning I took them out and gave it to her to play with. I thought, why not?
_ I came to this list for support and wondering maybe somebody else came to unschooling in the same way I did.
_Maybe they can tell me about their experiences.
That's all there was to it! Thanks!

--- On Sat, 1/2/10, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling and Montessori approach (sorry long)
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 4:14 AM







 









Sandra:

> There are requirements about

> activities and cleaning and sandpaper/textured letters and all kinds

> of stuff.



I read about the history of Montessori years ago and if I'm

remembering correctly, Maria Montessori's original ideas were free

form. It was all about kids playing with real things and learning

through their play. (Her original work was with "warehoused" kids

that had basically been abandoned to the (Italian) state for various

reasons and no one had much hope for.) At some point, though, her son

took over and I think he's the one that turned it into play directed

towards specific discoveries with "self-correcting" equipment.



The Montessori name, I just read, isn't trademarked so there may be

Montessori schools using Maria's original ideas (and other ideas too).



Michele:

> Should I provide more materials and see what works?

>



I think where you're confused is that you have your eye on the end

goal (letter recognition, reading, etc.) and you're wondering if

paving that pathway with Montessori materials and other overtly

educational materials is okay.



But, rather than facing the goal and worrying about the path to get

her there, facilitate her free explorations by supporting what

already interests her and directing interesting things into her life.

Be her partner in discovery, which sometimes means being with her

sharing, sometimes quietly off to the side aware but not interfering.



Provide a rich, varied, interesting life. Engage with her in life and

as you live life. Be interesting and interested. Rather than

metaphorically getting her to build a road to reading, provide access

to interesting things and things that interest her and she'll build

them into roads or towers or tunnels or rocket ships or flower

gardens ... *As a side effect* she'll learn to read and use numbers

and read maps and pick up who George Washington is.



You may need to take off your school glasses to "support what already

interests her". You may have a tendency to see interests that match

things taught in school and dismiss other things as entertainment or

play or fooling around. I think what's confusing about educational

materials is they're designed for one purpose and one goal. They're

often designed not to allow thoughts in take off in directions other

than intended. But you don't need to see them that way! Your daughter

doesn't :-) Sandpaper letters are textures. They're shapes to be

flipped over, turned sideways, upside down and combined. They can be

used like rulers and French curves to trace around. They can be used

for textured drawing (putting paper over them and rubbing with the

side of a crayon). (What will emerge may not be a full letter but

lines and angles and curves and textured blocks of color.) Maybe

she'd enjoy blank pieces of sandpaper to cut her own shapes from.

*And* they're letters to that form words :-)



Whatever she finds interesting, she's learning from. But what

interests her may not be what the materials are intended for. That's

a good thing! But it's also okay to be interested in what they're

intended for too. :-)



Rather than helping her on a pathway to one goal, open up doors to

the world of possibilities. All the basic skills will get picked up

and refined as she explores and looks and and abandons pathways

because they're basic to what we do in life. It will be exactly the

same way she picked up spoken language just by living a life.

Language wasn't the end goal. Getting what she wanted was the end

goal. She used language as a tool to get what she wanted. As a side

effect of using language, she got better at it. And it became a more

effective tool she used more often.



Joyce

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BrendaMarie Hoffman

I don't think of myself as a real, true unschooler.  We do a combination of unschooling, Charlotte Mason and Montessori.  I find that this works best for us and the key is finding what works best for you.
 =^..^= BrendaMarie
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can.
And the wisdom to know where to hide the bodies
of anyone who says "You're perfectly healthy, Fibromyalgia is all in your head."




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele Spout

Hi Lisa! What a journey you've had! Very inspiring!
I brought up the kids "doing nothing" in a Montessori school, because many people think that unschooling kids " do nothing" too.
I still join the Montessori Association Yahoo group and the other day came a post about "Authentic Montessori" how can you tell what is Montessori and who gets to decide? One of the post answer from somebody within the Association itself was saying that if the child is choosing to do "nothing", they should be allowed to do so. Now, we understand that they are really NOT doing nothing, is always something going on within the child. And of course nobody would do nothing all day!
I'm only talking about true Montessori. 95% of the Montessori schools in USA are NOT authentic.

--- On Sat, 1/2/10, Ed Wendell <ewendell@...> wrote:

From: Ed Wendell <ewendell@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling and Montessori approach (sorry long)
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 7:49 AM







 









That is pretty close.



I've been a Montessori Teacher (directress is the "proper" term used by Montessorians) in a public inner city school for 23 years now. I've always said there are two components to Montessori: the philosophy - follow the child, honor the child, respect, child development aspects, etc. THEN there are the materials and lessons. We've had many teachers come through our school that use the materials simply as another curriculum - another catchy / fantastic way to teach - they totally miss out on the philosophy aspect of it all - the most important in my opinion.



Being a public school we have to deal with parent's, the district's and the state's expectations. In a private school they charge a huge tuition so the parents have high expectations. I don't think very many kids would be sitting around doing nothing - What kid would do absolutely nothing all day every day anyway??? In 25 years I've never had a child do absolutely nothing - ;) Not to say that my principal and my parents don't start to grumble if a child colors everyday - I have 2 boys that are doing that very thing this year. Over the years if I've ever had a child that wants to do nothing but color <bwg> all day it is usually a boy that then ends up with beautiful handwriting - spontaneously - Both boys that are coloring right now have started going to the chalk board and copying things they see in the room (writing) I've taught them nothing! <bwg> BUT that is not doing nothing. Trust me children will do something.





Maria Montessori originally set the Children's House up like a mini house. The children cooked and cleaned by choice, they gardened, they took walks outside to explore nature. The elementary program came along later. All the peace education came along as a result of WWll. Montessori was a program that developed over time - all the lessons, materials, etc. If one reads her books you get the sense that in the very beginning it was as much like home as she could replicate with a bunch of children that were being left alone when parents went to work - these children were tearing up the tenement housing and the housing owners hired her to keep the children from tearing up the place. Before that she worked with mentally retarded children - most of the sensorial materials were developed for use with those children in the beginning.



She was actually a medical doctor - she faked being a male to get into medical school and then became the first Italian woman to become a medical doctor. She had her son out of wedlock - which would have been a big deal back then.



Some aspects of Montessori are basically the same as Unschooling - some are not. She talked about how children are like sponges that absorb knowledge - not an empty vessel we must fill up (more like traditional schooling thought). Following the child's interest - some aspects of what unschoolers call strewing can been seen in many Montessori environments. They will learn when they are ready. etc.



I remember in one book she talks about going for a walk with a toddler/preschooler and how if you walked at the child's pace they could/walk for a long time, but they tire quickly if you walk at your normal pace. I liked the concept of child sized equipment for our son. He loved to sweep, shovel snow, garden, cook, wood working, etc. The child sized snow shovel came in handy (still does at age 15.5) for scooping legos into bins!!!! We still have the short handled broom in our coat closet for quick sweep ups. We had/have a small leaf rake, garden hoe, wheel barrow, etc. If Zac said "Let me do it myself." - we found ways for him to do it himself successfully. If he wanted to pour his own milk without help, we'd pour some milk into a small pitcher and then he could pour - without a meltdown because he wanted to do it by himself.



Zachariah has been unschooling since we brought him home mid third grade - he is 15.5 now - wish I'd known about unschooling all along. We had decided to homeschool and I was researching on-line and started reading about unschooling and KNEW I'd found what would fit - that's the short story ;)



Lisa W.



----- Original Message -----

From: Joyce Fetteroll



Sandra:

> There are requirements about

> activities and cleaning and sandpaper/textured letters and all kinds

> of stuff.



I read about the history of Montessori years ago and if I'm

remembering correctly, Maria Montessori's original ideas were free

form. It was all about kids playing with real things and learning

through their play. (Her original work was with "warehoused" kids

that had basically been abandoned to the (Italian) state for various

reasons and no one had much hope for.) At some point, though, her son

took over and I think he's the one that turned it into play directed

towards specific discoveries with "self-correcting" equipment.



The Montessori name, I just read, isn't trademarked so there may be

Montessori schools using Maria's original ideas (and other ideas too).



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

----- Original Message -----
From: BrendaMarie Hoffman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:46 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: unschooling and Montessori approach (sorry long)



I don't think of myself as a real, true unschooler. We do a combination of unschooling, Charlotte Mason and Montessori. I find that this works best for us and the key is finding what works best for you.
=^..^= BrendaMarie

**********************

i keep hearing this - the concept of "combining" unschooling with other things. i finallky have an opportunity to ask - what part of what you do do you consider to be the unschooling part? i am not asking this fascetiously, although i will be honest in saying i do not believe it's possible to combine unschooling with anything. but - i am still curious. i also wonder what you mean by the "key" - the key to what?

lyla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 2, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Michele Spout wrote:

> Joyce you said: You may need to take off your school glasses to
> "support what already interests her". Here I go again with my
> question.

If advice is off the mark, that's okay. It might be useful for
someone else who is in a similar situation.

If everyone is off the mark then there's probably a problem with the
way the original post was worded.

If only bits are getting answered, it's likely that no one has
anything else to offer.

(Though I think I covered the essence of what you asked albeit
indirectly.)

> I came to this list for support
>

It's not a support list, though. It's a discussion list. Because
people are unfamiliar with the difference, it's suggested they read
for a while so they can get the flavor of the list and not get hurt
by responses that are different from what they expect.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 1/1/2010 7:22 PM, Michele Spout wrote:
> I brought up the Montessori materials because that's where we started before going for unschooling. I put the materials away after I decided "doing school" was not something I was feeling comfortable doing.
Did you put away all paper and pencils and crayons and books and
everything else ever used in schools, too? Rejecting

Montessori materials are sometimes kind of cool as toys, but they're not
great as used in Montessori schools. They are always introduced with the
step-by-step Montessori lesson given by the teacher about exactly how to
use the materials - no creativity allowed in their use, there is one
right way to do it. Children are not allowed access to any specific
resource until the teacher has introduced it to them. And, there is an
emphasis on how these are NOT toys, they are the child's tools to use in
the child's work. The pink tower, for example, is not for imaginative
play, it is for building the tower, in order, in sequence, exactly as it
is designed to be used. Children are allowed to play with one tool at a
time, they must put one away before getting the other out.

Montessori had some good ideas - and there are some nice things about
the implementation in some Montessori schools (a minimum of 3 hours of
uninterrupted "work" time, for example, is nice). But those 3 hours of
uninterrupted work time means indoor time, the kid can't just decide he
wants to swing for 3 hours. There are no real art materials (paper and
markers is pretty much it) and no pretend play - which is looked down
on. The kids are supposed to do "real" things - albeit with child-size
materials like short brooms and small dustpans.
> My daughter still asks about them so the other day I took them out and let her play with them. I thought, why not? I believe was Pam Sorooshian who wrote in a post "unschooling is not anti-schooling".
>
Right. We aren't schooling our children, but we shouldn't act like
unschooling means rejecting absolutely anything and everything that
might be used in a school or happen in a school. Good schools can have
some very cool stuff, along with the negatives such as assignments,
tests, grades, and all the other very unnatural and unsupportive of
learning stuff.
> In my opinion the "educational toys" they have right now are a bad imitation of Montessori materials, I prefer to have the real thing.
>

In my opinion, most Montessori materials are too limiting to be worth
the money - too specific to channeling a child into learning one
specific thing. I'm not sure what "educational toys" you have in mind -
my kids are grown and I haven't really looked at "educational" toys in a
long time. But, seriously, just stop thinking of there being
"educational" toys versus any other toys....look at toys as toys. Think
about your own child, what they might enjoy playing with - ignore
whether it was designed by someone else to be educational or not.
> There is an article on your website called "Building an unschooling nest" At the end it says " It isn't all that tricky, though, when you live with a kid and pay attention and care deeply - to keep that child in mind and provide him/her with a pretty steady stream of options/possibilities/ideas/stuff, etc. Invite and offer a lot - it is your job to create a stimulating and interesting environment around her."
> In your reply you say "unschooling advocates simply living with and actually using language and mathematics in natural ways" This sounds to me that I should do nothing and just let things happen.

Reread what you quoted "...keep that child in mind and provide him/her
with a pretty steady stream of options/possibilities/ideas/stuff., etc.,
invite and offer a lot - it is your job to create a stimulating and
interesting environment around her.

So - I'm asking myself how the HECK do you read that and then say it
sounds like you should "do nothing and just let things happen?"

Are you confusing the word "natural" with "do nothing?" Natural ways
means the ways that fit your child and your family in the course of your
living your happy and good and interesting life - ways that are fun and
enjoyable and satisfying in your own family. It means natural to you and
your child, not artificially imposed by some expert or curriculum
committee based on some general theory of what's best for all children.
> Again, I brought up the Montessori materials because we already have some. It would've been just the same as asking about magnetic letters many people have on their refrigerators, a board game, or anything else that may seem "educational".
>

Can you stop yourself from thinking in terms of "educational" versus
"not educational?" It is a very artificial distinction.


-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=- I came to this list for support-=-

Many people want support for doing what they're doing.
They want to be encouraged to continue with their current plan.

What support from other mothers usually looks like is this:

http://sandradodd.com/support

This list, though, is for discussing unschooling, and what will help a
family succeed with mindful parenting and natural learning.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't think of myself as a real, true unschooler. We do a
combination of unschooling, Charlotte Mason and Montessori. I find
that this works best for us and the key is finding what works best for
you.
=^..^= BrendaMarie-=-

"The key" to participation on this list, though, is to help others
understand unschooling.

Sandra

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Michele Spout

Sandra: I have no idea what inspired you to create your website and this list. I can only tell you what they mean to me as I look at it from the other side.
Finding your website was very eye opening for me as a parent. I never knew life without school was possible or even something people is already been doing for many, many years. I didn't even know about just plain homeschooling.
You, Joyce and Pam inspire me. It makes me think "if it works for them, it can work for us". I feel SUPPORTED in my decision I am making for my kids at least for now that they are so young ( 2 1/2 and 3 1/2).
I had a question and I came to you. That's all.
Thanks! Michele
--- On Sat, 1/2/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling and Montessori approach (sorry long)
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 11:22 AM







 









-=- I came to this list for support-=-



Many people want support for doing what they're doing.

They want to be encouraged to continue with their current plan.



What support from other mothers usually looks like is this:



http://sandradodd. com/support



This list, though, is for discussing unschooling, and what will help a

family succeed with mindful parenting and natural learning.



Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele Spout

Thank you Brenda for your response, very real and grounded.

I've been researching about different approaches to education (including unschooling) for the last 4 years, but only in the last couple of months I joined the "unschooling community".

The more I read, the more I laugh, in a way. I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I'm assuming we are all open to change. Growing never ends and nobody knows it all.
I am new as an unschooling Mom but I'm not new at the concept. In fact I've been raised by unschoolers at heart, regardless of school or not school.

My Dad taught himself to play guitar at the age of 10 and built his own electric guitar by 12. He opened 2 companies and is very successful with no high school diploma.
My Mom dropped out of high school and when I was 16 went back for 3 years to get her degree because she just felt like it.

I've got comments here saying " You need to take your school glasses off" and "you need more deschooling".

I took out my "school glasses" off more than 20 years ago when I decided to leave school and go to work. I wanted to be in the real world, learn from real people. And that is exactly what I did.

Amazes me how many teachers, professors and people with college degrees unschool their kids. When did they change their minds about school? Did they go to college because their parents want them to go? What about your choice and standing up for what you believe?

My parents weren't very happy about me leaving school, but I fought for it because I didn't believe in the school system.

I am talking from my own experience. Many people here talk from their kid's experiences.
I guess they want to give them the life they never had, and that's great!

It seems some people get afraid of anything that may look like school because they are burned up.

What is the difference between a Montessori material and a Melissa and Dough toy? In my opinion they make a real bad imitation of Montessori materials, but they are filling up their pockets with money because people sees them as "toys". They are toys with a hidden agenda. This is not where I'm coming from, I don't "trick" my kids.

My wish for my kids is to be open and embrace everything the world has to offer so then they can make a better decision about what they really want and what touches their hearts.
Watch out! Don't have a dictionary laying around, it may be schoolish!

Sorry, I just had to write this post. As a "partially unschooled kid" I am very outspoken and I like to state my truth. This is my truth and I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm just speaking my heart.
that this works best for us and the key is finding what works best for you.

=^..^= BrendaMarie

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 2, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Michele Spout wrote:

> The more I read, the more I laugh, in a way. I hope this doesn't
> offend anyone.

If you asked a stranger to take some time out of their day to help
you and then you laughed at their help, don't you think it's likely
they'd be offended?

I'm not saying I am (or saying anyone is). I'm not seeking an
apology. It's offered as something to think about.

If you feel the need to laugh -- and then go onto explain why --
that's a really good sign that your words aren't as clear as you
think they are. If people are misunderstanding your needs, the energy
is better directed at clarifying your needs (perhaps just in your own
mind), Because people *are* responding well to the words you posted.

I'm still quite confused on what you need. If, as you say, you have a
decent grasp on learning outside school, then why would it bother you
if your daughter wants to play with something designed for school?
(That's a question for you to ask yourself. It honestly doesn't
matter if someone else has had the same experience. You're a unique
person. You might have unique responses. Drag them out and examine
them. Examine the fears they bring to mind.) She's not in school. She
isn't subjected to the pressure to use something the right way. And
if she's remembering a right way, that's okay. If the rest of her
life is free, she'll get over it.

(It could be comforting for her. It could be it brings back happy
memories of the two of you engaged in something together and maybe
you feed that need by baking cookies together or some other activity
you're doing together.)

Joyce

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