lorifla72

Hello, I joined this forum because I have been considering and researching homeschooling and unschooling for several months. I love the philosophy of unschooling. It meshes with my beliefs.

I think I am having some trouble making the leap because my children have always attended school.

I have two boys, ages 6 and 9. They are in the first and third grade and attend public school that is one mile from my house. I work very part-time (once a week while they are in school) and spend maximum time with them (outside of school). They are "straight A" students. They seem to do fine but I have fears that public school will squash their love of learning. (I'm not sure they have a strong love a learning at this point. Hopefully it can be rekindled.) I think they are "burned out" after school and play outside and play video games and computer games. They are learning at these times, I'm probably not viewing it as such.

I might be posting in the wrong forum to ask such a question but is it your belief that traditional school "ruins" kids?

My eldest son races through homework with the goal of getting it over with. There is no learning, joy, or inquisition. It does not bother me that he hurries since I think the homework is excessive and he wants to spend after school time relaxing, playing outside, or doing other activities he enjoys. I'm certain that he is not retaining half of the work he is doing at home. I'm not sure how much he is absorbing in school. He is very bright and one of the "smartest" in his class. I think he likes school for the most part. I have been gently discussing homeschooling and he asks me all kinds of questions, "How will I learn?" "How will I learn my multiplication tables?" "When will I see my friends?" etc. He says he wants to remain in school and I am fine with that.

My youngest also does well in school. He is very keen on the prospect of unschooling.

Is it possible to unschool during the weekends, after school, and summers? I realize this question might be crazy. I do trust in my children and respect them as individuals. I feel that I am a facilitator in their learning at home. This hasn't always been the case. I am an ever evolving parent and made, and still make, plenty of mistakes. Examples: In the past I have signed them up for activities they didn't want to participate in, directed their lives in many ways, yelled a lot, forced them to practice piano, probably sent them to preschool too young, spent too much time on the internet instead of with them, etc. Ugh. I'm glad I have seen the light and continue to learn about myself and work to become a better parent.

What should I be thinking about now? What books are the best to read for a parent that is considering unschooling? I realize this is long and all over the place. Thanks so much for any comments or advice.

Sandra Dodd

-=-What should I be thinking about now? What books are the best to
read for a parent that is considering unschooling? I realize this is
long and all over the place. Thanks so much for any comments or
advice. -=-

This might help some:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice

Taking a child out of school against is will is the same deal as
making one go to school against his will. I wouldn't do it.

This one wouldn't hurt you any, as to books:
http://sandradodd.com/bigbook

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Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< Is it possible to unschool during the weekends, after school, and
summers?>>>>

No.

This is something that I feel very strongly about.

There is a lot of confusion out there, in the homeschooling community and
elsewhere, that unschooling is defined as "anything and everything". The
confusion comes, I believe, from a misunderstanding about the difference
between the definition of unschooling and the daily practice of unschooling
in our lives (which can be the anything and everything of people's
passions).

The *definition* of unschooling is very narrow and rigid. Sandra, Joyce, Pam
and others have worked long and hard and vigorously to keep spreading the
message that unschooling is a full time, lifestyle commitment to Not Doing
School - in action and in thought (that's the hard part).

It's like a small doorway that you squeeze through to find the whole wide
wonderful world on the other side, all looking different after your
experience of squeezing through that door.

There are a whole set of practices that are emphatically not unschooling.
Living with school in your life forces you to engage in those practices
everyday.

I applaud you for wanting to be a mindful parent, which goes hand in hand
with unschooling - BUT can also exist without unschooling! Mindful parenting
can exist every day.

So can learning. If you want your kids to want to come home and unschool,
you have to make life more fun, more lively, more interesting than school is
every day.

<<<<> I might be posting in the wrong forum to ask such a question but is it
your belief that traditional school "ruins" kids?>>>>

Undoubtedly school ruins some kids. Some kids love school. Others cope or
survive.

However we can never know how things might have been different for any
particular child. I can't know whether my dd might have survived schooling
perfectly well, with whatever coping mechanisms she would devise for
herself.

What I do know is that unschooling is a wonderful life that we have chosen
and ingrained into our thinking to the extent that the idea of sending my dd
to school is so awful - to all three of us. So we are sacrificing my income
(such as it might be) to enable it. You could say that unschooling has
ruined my dd for school, at least for now.

Initially we wanted to homeschool because of the fears you mention. My dh
and I distrusted the schools available to us, the system, and in a way we
distrusted that our dd could survive in our crappy school system. (Something
I have changed my thinking on since seeing and appreciating her wonderful
strength and willfulness.)

We now consider unschooling to be a better life than even the best possible
school experience, for us. The best thing about unschooling is that our time
is our own.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 6, 2009, at 8:30 PM, lorifla72 wrote:

> I think they are "burned out" after school and play outside and
> play video games and computer games. They are learning at these
> times, I'm probably not viewing it as such.

Undoubtedly their play is several things at once. A release of
energy. A release of stress. An opportunity to do what they enjoy
that they've been kept from all day. There's also some avoidance of
what they're forced to do all day.

Learning happens as a side effect of living even for schooled kids.
But the above reasons can get in the way of learning. Unschooling
kids don't have those getting in the way. (Well, unschooling kids can
build up energy and get stressed too! But not the constrained and
imposed kind that schooled kids need to suffer through every day.)

> My eldest son races through homework with the goal of getting it
> over with. There is no learning, joy, or inquisition.
>

It's a rare child who will find learning or joy or something
intriguing in homework. It's rote work intended to imprint
information into kids' brains so they can spit it back for tests.
Educators *hope* more profound learning happens as a result of class
instruction, reading and homework, but the goal is to prepare kids to
take tests. Educators don't want that, but it's how the system is set
up. (Though most educators are convinced that what they do is
necessary for learning.)
> He is very bright and one of the "smartest" in his class.
>

Smart at what though? Performing for tests?

I'm not trying to be snarky (and you did put "smartest" in quotes)
but it's truly unfortunate that kids are subjected to a learning
system that doesn't match the way humans naturally learn -- and in
many ways is counter to it -- and the ones who can do it are
considered smart and the others not so smart. All the grades really
mean is that someone can perform the way schools need them to. It
really has nothing to do with smart. I got good grades in school
without much effort. What it really indicated is I can absorb
information without trying.

> "How will I learn?" "How will I learn my multiplication tables?"
> "When will I see my friends?" etc. He says he wants to remain in
> school and I am fine with that.
>

Though I would tell him he can learn just fine by exploring what
interests him, it's quite likely he won't believe you. ;-) Natural
learning is different than school learning. Living doesn't provide
the same kind of feedback that school does. You don't see the
progress through a textbook or stack of papers.

I wouldn't sugar coat this to convince him. Be honest. He would have
less time with his schooled friends but he could see them after
school. He'd also likely meet some homeschooling kids.

> is it your belief that traditional school "ruins" kids?
>

It has an effect on all kids. Some manage to cope and survive. Some
are damaged severely. I don't think it's possible to escape school
without picking up some screwy ideas about what learning is and how
to treat people. For instance in real life, cooperation and working
together toward a common goal is a good thing. But in school, it's
severely punished and called cheating. The society in school doesn't
match anything in real life except maybe prison.

But forcing a child to homeschool when they're enjoying school would
be worse. Let him come to the decision in his own time. Lots of kids
enjoy elementary school. When they hit middle school, things often
change.

If the younger one wants to come home, bring him home and let the
older one continue with what he enjoys. Let him accompany you
occasionally when you're doing something fun.

In the meantime Guerilla Learning might be helpful.

Joyce














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Sandra Dodd

I think when Joyce wrote "In the meantime Guerilla Learning might be
helpful," she meant this:

http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Learning-Education-Without-School/dp/0471349607

I think so. <g>

I don't like the subtitle of that book. I don't know if the author
named her book or an editor did, but I cringe at this:

Guerrilla Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or
Without School

I don't like the term "education" to be around unschooling, and it's
not someone anyone "gives" another person, either--neither
linguistically nor cognitively. Talking and thinking about
"education" get people totally out of the natural-learning ball field.

Sandra

Jenny Cyphers

***Guerrilla Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or
Without School

I don't like the term "education" to be around unschooling, and it's
not someone anyone "gives" another person, either--neither
linguistically nor cognitively. Talking and thinking about
"education" get people totally out of the natural-learning ball field***

I was thinking about suggesting the another Grace Llewelyn book, the "How to quit school and get a real life and education"

I love her books, but she incorporates a lot of "education" into her ideas of natural learning.  The way she proposes unschooling to function and look like, looks NOTHING like what happens in our house, not one iota similar.  I like her for similar reasons that I like John Holt, how she digs into how the school system that we know doesn't really do what it says it does and why and how it could be different.

It's good for people entrenched in the school system. 




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Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I think when Joyce wrote "In the meantime Guerilla Learning might be
> helpful," she meant this:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Learning-Education-Without-School/dp/0471349607
>
> I think so. <g>
>
> I don't like the subtitle of that book. I don't know if the author
> named her book or an editor did, but I cringe at this:
>
> Guerrilla Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or
> Without School
>
> I don't like the term "education" to be around unschooling, and it's
> not someone anyone "gives" another person, either--neither
> linguistically nor cognitively. Talking and thinking about
> "education" get people totally out of the natural-learning ball field.
>
> Sandra
>


LOL. I was just reading yet another "What Is Unschooling?" article and it opened with "Unschooling is a movement in education."

I have a pet peeve about people using the word "education" when they mean "schooling", as if the two words are synonymous, so I've used the word "education" myself to mean something that includes both schooling and unschooling. I used to tell my always schooled daughter, "School is only a part of your education and not necessarily the most important part", meaning there are many things to learn that she won't be taught at school; but, now I'm thinking about it, I couldn't say to my son that what he's doing is only a part of his education. What he's doing is everything of what he's doing. Which is going about his daily activities and learning as he goes. I'm certainly not giving him an education. Maybe he's "getting an education" by osmosis. And I only describe my son as "self-educated" for the benefit of others, it's not a description he's ever used. It's how I describe myself. But I study, albeit informally. Hmm ... I shall have to have a ponder on that one.

Bob

lorifla72

Thanks so much for all of the comments. I will definitely check out the Guerrilla parenting book. I have read the reviews on Amazon and ordered it. Sandra, thanks so much for the links to the articles -- they are very helpful. I found your site through your Leading Edge Parenting interview. I have read many articles on your blog since then. I am still researching and thinking. I used to have this belief that I am not stimulating or interesting enough. My husband and I tend to be quiet and we are immersed in our own interests (mainly reading). I don't want to sound like we don't interact and have fun with our kids but we do tend to let them do their own thing while we do ours. Whenever I discuss the idea of leaving school my husband does not openly object. This is a good sign.

I have always been slightly disenchanted with our school. I have never expressed this to my children. I always exhibit a positive attitude about school around my kids because this is what my mother did. I don't want them to think it's a miserable place. My younger son is a good public school student -- he toes the line, but when I ask him about it he says he dislikes it. I think he objects to sitting all day and doing worksheet after worksheet. He is bored.

My nephew, who is five-years-old and has autism, attends the same school as my children. He is in pre-K and was suspended last week for three days for hitting another child. What is the goal of suspending a five-year-old with autism? What is it supposed to teach? It's very upsetting. I feel uncomfortable sending and keeping my kids in this system. I wish my sister would remove him. She is a single mom that works full-time and she thinks she doesn't have a choice. I want to "homeschool" him since I work very little. Maybe it will come to that. Thanks very much to all.

Sandra Dodd

-=-
LOL. I was just reading yet another "What Is Unschooling?" article and
it opened with "Unschooling is a movement in education." -=-

In that context it makes sense. If you're standing a long way from
unschooling and you say "education," then unschooling is part of the
greater field of "education."

If you're standing inside the unschooling neighborhood, then education
seems far the other direction, and involves a pre-set body of
knowledge that "educated" people are expected to have.

"Self educated" means learned all those things in one's own way,
without the "benefit" of a fancy school. Self-educated people are
like Abraham Lincoln who might rather have been privileged enough to
have been in boarding school, but had to slum it elsewhere.

That's just one way of looking at it. That's just the way that
supports my particular stance. <bwg>

I'm not adamantly opposed to the use of "education," except when it's
getting between someone and seeing that natural learning might not be
the "education" they were looking for, nor might it result in the same
"education."

I used to think so, more, many years ago. I'm drifting away from
thinking it. I think the word "education" conjures up school subject
matter for most people, and would not include things learned from
driving race cars or playing world of warcraft. Maybe flying planes
and playing chess would count as "education." Education has an edge
where it drops off into "non-educational," I think. Natural learning
doesn't.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-He is in pre-K and was suspended last week for three days for
hitting another child. What is the goal of suspending a five-year-old
with autism? What is it supposed to teach? It's very upsetting. I feel
uncomfortable sending and keeping my kids in this system. I wish my
sister would remove him. She is a single mom that works full-time and
she thinks she doesn't have a choice. I want to "homeschool" him since
I work very little. Maybe it will come to that. Thanks very much to
all. -=-

Look into the laws where you are. You might not be able to homeschool
someone else's child, even a relative, but your sister might
homeschool him and you'd be the daytime babysitter. And if you get to
the point that unschooling is what you both want and understand and
do, then he'll be learning as much at your house at hers, but you
won't need to feel responsible for all his learning.

If you bring your own children home, be wary of sticking them with a
cousin so much of the time. That could be a problem. It could limit
what you could do with your own kids. But it's definitely doable!

I think my advice would be to keep looking into unschooling, maybe
gradually give your kids more options and leeway and experiences, and
see how it all goes, so that if something dramatic happens with school
and one of the kids wants to bail, you'll be ready.

Some families take their kids out of school at the first whiff of
homeschooling being legal, and then they're unprepared, which doesn't
instill confidence in the kids.

Sandra

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Jenny Cyphers

***I think the word "education" conjures up school subject
matter for most people, and would not include things learned from
driving race cars or playing world of warcraft. Maybe flying planes
and playing chess would count as "education." Education has an edge
where it drops off into "non-educational, " I think. Natural learning
doesn't.***
 
This is exactly why what Grace Llewelyn writes about unschooling in the Teenage Liberation Handbook, it looks nothing like what my own teenager is doing.  She describes ways in which one could get an "education" without school, ways to fill in the gaps of knowledge.  In reality, while there may be some kids that do that, my kids would really be over that edge and in that gap learning about the world in a very different sort of way.





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Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-
> LOL. I was just reading yet another "What Is Unschooling?" article and
> it opened with "Unschooling is a movement in education." -=-
>
> In that context it makes sense. If you're standing a long way from
> unschooling and you say "education," then unschooling is part of the
> greater field of "education."
>
> If you're standing inside the unschooling neighborhood, then education
> seems far the other direction, and involves a pre-set body of
> knowledge that "educated" people are expected to have.
>
> "Self educated" means learned all those things in one's own way,
> without the "benefit" of a fancy school. Self-educated people are
> like Abraham Lincoln who might rather have been privileged enough to
> have been in boarding school, but had to slum it elsewhere.
>
> That's just one way of looking at it. That's just the way that
> supports my particular stance. <bwg>
>
> I'm not adamantly opposed to the use of "education," except when it's
> getting between someone and seeing that natural learning might not be
> the "education" they were looking for, nor might it result in the same
> "education."
>
> I used to think so, more, many years ago. I'm drifting away from
> thinking it. I think the word "education" conjures up school subject
> matter for most people, and would not include things learned from
> driving race cars or playing world of warcraft. Maybe flying planes
> and playing chess would count as "education." Education has an edge
> where it drops off into "non-educational," I think. Natural learning
> doesn't.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


I understand that entirely. Thank you for elucidating. :-)

Bob

Kim Zerbe

<< I applaud you for wanting to be a mindful parent, which goes hand in hand
with unschooling - BUT can also exist without unschooling! Mindful parenting
can exist every day.>>

Yes it can and does! I've had conversations with my MIL about how she made
life fun and interesting for her 2 boys after school, on weekends, and
during breaks. (I wouldn't call her overall approach in parenting "mindful"
but she was like an activities director on a cruise!) She took them to
Yankee games, skiing in Vermont, dinner in NYC, and made sure they went to
museums, national parks, saw plays and ballets, and were involved in boy
scouts. She said it's up to every parent to create that life for their
child. Schools can only do so much. Parents are supposed to fill in on their
time. I argued that if every parent was doing all of that, the kids wouldn't
need school!

Unfortunately she still sees school as necessary, as a place to send your
kids during the day so mom can have a break or do her thing. Granted, she
was a single mom from the time her kids were 5 and 9. Upon getting divorced
she had to get a job. That made her work even harder to give her kids those
special experiences. I think she was trying to make up for not being able to
be home with them anymore. In a different marriage and with the right
exposure, she could have been a good candidate for unschooling!

However, she is who she is and her other grandkids are in "excellent" public
schools, so she is very skeptical about our version of homeschooling. I
think she has backed off since Kindergarten is not a big deal, but she has
put the pressure on my husband about where Damon is going to 1st grade.

Kim



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lorifla72

> I think my advice would be to keep looking into unschooling, maybe
> gradually give your kids more options and leeway and experiences, and
> see how it all goes, so that if something dramatic happens with school
> and one of the kids wants to bail, you'll be ready.
>
> Some families take their kids out of school at the first whiff of
> homeschooling being legal, and then they're unprepared, which doesn't
> instill confidence in the kids.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Very good advice, Sandra. Thank you. I am still learning so much and moving away from unconsciously parenting them they way I was parented. There are many occasions in their life that I did not allow them enough freedom.

lorifla72

Kim, thanks for your comment. I am one of those moms that likes to expose my kids to many different things. Sometimes I think my ego and fear was the motivation for doing some things. Examples: I signed my eldest child up for a hoity-toity art class when he was four because my friends' kids were doing it. The same with some special classes that were offered at the museum during the summer. He didn't even enjoy it and wanted to stay home but I made him go. I feel horribly guilty about that. I kind of pressured my kids to play baseball because my parents love the game. I insisted that they play and practice piano. Yeah, I have issues. I'm learning and working to repair the disrespect I have shown them. My eldest son loves baseball so hopefully I didn't screw things up too badly.

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>