Sandra Dodd

This was a response to an e-mail. I'm not quoting the whole original,
just a few bits.
=====================

-=-.But, I also see other piece of our particular family's reality.
We don't want television around, we don't like it. -=-

Be careful to acknowledge your children as individuals and not as part
of the "we."

-=-I have started to get sick of the stupid plots that never end, so I
guess the gorge until you are sick of it and then find balance is
slowly applying to me. But, we just don't want to have a television;
spend money on one, have one around, etc. The same is for junk food. -
=-

If you define things as "stupid" and "junk" it will make it harder for
you to think clearly.
If you tell your children what is "stupid" and "junk" it will make it
harder for them to think clearly, too.

-=- I want to buy food that is good for us and makes us feel full and
satisfied, and we have limited funds to buy that food. And also,
whenever she eats candy, my daughter's eczema flairs up and she gets a
rash, so I've said that she's allergic to it. -=-

The more honest you are, the better for your relationships and your
integrity. If you lie about one thing, it's harder for your children
(or others) to trust your advice or your assertions.

-=- We could sacrifice some of our own 'perks' and give the kids
theirs... I could never buy a coffee and donut, and then buy bags of
candy with that money... but that doesn't feel right either. -=-

Maybe spend some time thinking about that What *are* your kids
"perqs"? Are they appendages who do what you say and have what you
give them? At three years old, maybe so, mostly. When are they
individual people? How is candy worse than a donut and coffee?
(Don't write and tell me; think about it yourself.)

-=-I hope you don't mind this email, and have a bit of time to
respond.-=-

If I write to one person, it doesn't help anyone else. If I write to
a list, it helps hundreds of people. Because of that I'm going to
take this to the Always Learning list. You can join and see responses
or not, but I don't want this writing to go into one single place.
It's not a good use of my time.

This paragraph is big and important and I think if you read more of
what's already available you'll find ideas to help you think of them:

-=-I think my question is, as a radical unschooler, allowing children
to make their own choices - are parents then obligated to provide
access to everything a child might want? Television, video games,
junk food, toys, branded clothing? Do we get to choose how to spend
our money? Or do the children get a say in it? At what age do what
choices apply? When financial reality means wearing hand-me-downs,
thrift store finds, choosing the most nutrition for the least bucks,
forgoing all except the essential utilities (electric, heat, water,
but no cell phones, cable tv, etc although we do have internet).-=-
I'll respond to that on Always Learning, and send you a copy of my
response.

If you don't have time to read about unschooling, you'll probably come
to a point where you're not unschooling anymore. If you had a kid in
school there would be real time requirements, transportation,
clothing, lunches, fees... So if you have a child at home you can't
expect to invest NO time or money or effort and still succeed.

I have a new book, and one older one. They can't be ordered together
because I'm using flat rate priority mail and the new book is too big
for both to fit, but this might be helpful to you if you decide you
can't invest time learning online:

http://sandradodd.com/bigbook
http://sandradodd.com/puddle

Sandra

Jenny Cyphers

-=-I have started to get sick of the stupid plots that never end, so I
guess the gorge until you are sick of it and then find balance is
slowly applying to me. But, we just don't want to have a television;
spend money on one, have one around, etc. The same is for junk food. -
=-

TV's can be had for very cheap.  It doesn't cost a lot, unless you live very remotely and need a dish to get channels, and even those aren't super expensive anymore.  There are also things like netflix, which has been one of the best investments for our family.  We can watch a ton of things instantly through our computer and we get a few discs in the mail.  We have a computer set up connected to the tv to watch that way.

-=- I want to buy food that is good for us and makes us feel full and
satisfied, and we have limited funds to buy that food. And also,
whenever she eats candy, my daughter's eczema flairs up and she gets a
rash, so I've said that she's allergic to it. -=-

We have limited funds too, everyone does.  Within that limitation we get to choose what to spend our limited funs on.  With my limited funds yesterday, I bought chocolate chips and butterscotch chips for making cookies.  Not having tons of money to buy food doesn't mean you have to completely go without.  I make sure that I have candy here for my daughter that really loves it.  If I have to choose between buying candy or my expensive gluten free waffles, my breakfast of choice, I'll buy the candy and go without my favorite breakfast.  If I can justify buying something expensive and not necessary, then I can't justify saying that I can't afford candy. 

-=-I think my question is, as a radical unschooler, allowing children
to make their own choices - are parents then obligated to provide
access to everything a child might want? Television, video games,
junk food, toys, branded clothing? Do we get to choose how to spend
our money? Or do the children get a say in it? At what age do what
choices apply? When financial reality means wearing hand-me-downs,
thrift store finds, choosing the most nutrition for the least bucks,
forgoing all except the essential utilities (electric, heat, water,
but no cell phones, cable tv, etc although we do have internet).-= -

What's essential to one family is going to look different from what's essential to another family.  Our cell phones are essential.  We don't have a land line, and haven't had one for almost 10 yrs.  My husband is out and about a lot and needs to receive business calls.  Internet is essential in our house.  It is the single most important tool we use for unschooling and living in general.  Almost everything we own is second hand, even our tvs and computers.

Something that I choose to spend money on right now, is gas.  My oldest daughter has a boyfriend who she has limited access to, so I do whatever I can for them to see each other, even if that means picking him up from school.  I don't know any other parent, aside from other unschooling parents, that would go out of their way like that.  Unschooling means that a parent needs to extend themselves in every way possible to help create more opportunities, not less.  By placing limits on your life, you'll feel limited and your kids will feel limited.  That's not very life expanding.  Even in the face of difficulties, like little money, I want to feel as if I have enough and I want my kids to feel like they have more than enough.  As my husband says, it's the difference between living life in abundance or living life in lack.  We get to choose how we view the world and present it to our kids.

If your kids were in school there would time commitments and monetary ones.  School supplies, back packs, lunches, fund raisers, volunteer time.  Where we live, high school students have to pay for a lot of their classes per term and some of them are required to graduate.  Depending on what variety of classes you choose, it could reach up to $600 per term.  It could also be as little as $100.  That's not cheap.  Nor does it include things like football games, athletics, uniforms, yearbooks, annual pictures, or any other extra curricular activity a child may have.  Lunches are $2.50 each day. 

Raising kids costs money.  There is no way around that.  The thing is, you get to make choices in how and what to spend that money on.  If your kids don't go to school, you have more flexibility in those choices. 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think my question is, as a radical unschooler, allowing children
to make their own choices - are parents then obligated to provide
access to everything a child might want? Television, video games,
junk food, toys, branded clothing? Do we get to choose how to spend
our money? Or do the children get a say in it? At what age do what
choices apply? When financial reality means wearing hand-me-downs,
thrift store finds, choosing the most nutrition for the least bucks,
forgoing all except the essential utilities (electric, heat, water,
but no cell phones, cable tv, etc although we do have internet).-=-

It's not about providing "access to everything a child might want."
No one can do that. It's about finding ways to respect what your
children want.
http://sandradodd/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/yes

A question like this sounds to me like a challenge, or an insult, to
unschoolers: "Do we get to choose how to spend our money? "

Yes. You can choose to spend your money on drugs or health food or
books that tell you you and your children were reincarnated from
whatever tickles your fancy.

-=-Or do the children get a say in it? -=-

We're not telling you how to raise your kids.
We're telling you how we're raising our kids.
I'm telling people who have met my kids (now 18, 20 and 23) what I've
done for the past 23 years which led to them being the way they are
now, and how they've been all their lives.

You don't have to give your children a say in ANYthing, ever. Never.
The result of that would probably be that you had children who lied
and stole from you, or ran away, or killed themselves, or who decided
to roll over and go with it, and then would become controlling of
their own children (and friends, and neighbors, and strangers).
That's what I think, anyway. That's what I've seen in my life.

Will it hurt me if someone comes by and says "I don't care what you've
seen in your life"? Not at all.
Will it hurt someone's children for her to come to unschoolers to
challenge and reject them? Very likely.

I was told the other day that on another list someone has come who was
in years past very critical of me by name, and of my suggestions in
particular. Dismissive. Now she's having trouble with her teens. I
don't have trouble with my teens. Did her dismissiveness hurt my
family? Not at all.

-=- At what age do what choices apply? -=-

When Kirby was born I would put him down if he seemed uncomfortable.
I would pick him up if he cried. I would nurse him if he seemed
hungry. I wouldn't try to get him to nurse if he turned away or
pushed away.

Yesterday he called to ask what online site I use to book flights. We
talked about recipes and money. I reminded him to see whether his
suit needed to be cleaned before the company party. He said he loaned
his roommate money to go to a family reunion in New York (from Texas)
because the roommate had spent $1000 when the dog was bitten by a
snake. Even though he's in a position to make his own choices
entirely now, he still trusts me to advise him, and I trust him to
have enough money to lend to his roommate and fly his girlfriend in
for a party. That relationship started when I picked him up when he
cried.

To ask "At what age to what choices apply" seems to request a number,
like "6" or "12." It's not at all about "what age," or "what
choices." It's about a relationship built on an every-building
partnership of acceptance and respect.

-=-When financial reality means wearing hand-me-downs, thrift store
finds, choosing the most nutrition for the least bucks, forgoing all
except the essential utilities (electric, heat, water, but no cell
phones, cable tv, etc although we do have internet).-=-

My kids LOVE thrift store clothes and toys; always have. Most of our
towels and bedding and dishes and cookware are from thrift stores. We
got cell phones in the past three years. Kirby had one longer
(through a friend who worked for T-Mobile). Keith still doesn't have
one. It was a choice for each person separately. Marty helped us pay
for his, at first, and recently when he expressed surprise that Holly
wasn't paying for hers and he was, Keith stopped charging Marty
anymore. We've never had cable TV.

When Kirby was young we were pretty poor. Now that they're
practically all grown, we have enough money to have three kids
comfortably. :-) But when we didn't have much money, we tried to
provide first for the child who was neediest or whose next desire was
most expensive. That's hard to describe. But because it happened so
naturally and freely, all the kids knew that maybe on Marty's birthday
he was going to get a big gift, because there was something he needed
especially. Hockey equipment, once. And now he gave it to the
thrift store the other day (11 years later). On the Christmas that
Marty and Holly got laptops, Kirby got trinkets and homemade cookies.
On a Christmas when Kirby got a Gamecube and a bunch of extra
controllers and games, Marty and Holly didn't get such glorious gifts,
but they knew they would get to play the Gamecube, and they knew that
one of the next few times it would be one of them getting the big gift.

It's possible to bring children into the parents lives so wholly that
those decisions can be made generously, and not resentfully, and
accepted gratefully and not jealously, by all the children.

We got along when we only had one computer, and when we had two, and
now that we have more computers than family members, we still get
along well.

If a family insisted on only having one computer or one TV (or none)
or one gaming system or one bicycle even though they could afford
more, or their children would be happier with more (and they had the
option to provide), I think that would be a "getting cold" decision,
not a "getting warm" decision as regards unschooling.

Sandra

Pam Sorooshian

On 11/14/2009 11:07 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> We don't want television around, we don't like it. -=-
>

If that was true, then there wouldn't even be a question about it. I
don't have to say, "We don't like sushi around, we don't like it,"
because it is TRUE that nobody here likes it so it simply isn't a
question we need to consider.

If nobody liked tv and nobody wanted it around - a tv would just sit
thee, unused and ignored.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 11/14/2009 11:07 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -I think my question is, as a radical unschooler, allowing children
> to make their own choices - are parents then obligated to provide
> access to everything a child might want?

My friend, who had known my family for many years, asked me: "I just
don't see how you afford to buy every videogame that comes out." I
didn't even know how to answer - except, "Huh?" Finally, "I don't know
what you mean, we don't buy every video game that comes out."

After we talked a bit, it became apparent that "unlimited video games"
had translated into spending terms in her mind - she thought it meant
that we always bought every video game the kids took even a passing
fancy to - immediately.

Rosie was with me during this conversation and she understood what my
friend meant - before I did. She said, "I buy most of my own games with
my own money." My friend looked over and said, accusingly, "But you
always say you allow unlimited video games." I said, "We don't restrict
video games." There was some more conversation and she finally got it.
But, for YEARS she had thought that I mean that we immediately went out
and purchased every new game that any of the kids had the slightest
desire for.

Provide access to as much of the world as you can. See your children's
interests as being as important as the parents. If a parent "needs"
coffee and donuts in the morning, then maybe a child "needs" candy in
the same way.

Find ways to provide as much to your children as you can - material
goods are cool, and so are experiences including fun family times and
deep conversations and getting out into nature and visiting cities and
on and on.

Anybody who is into giving excuses about why they can't provide what
their children want is missing the point of unschooling. None of us can
provide everything, human wants are unlimited. We sent our daughter to
Paris for 3 months - she'd have liked our whole family to have gone and
spent a whole year. It doesn't matter how much you spend, people can
find even more cool things on which to spend more and more. Unschooling
parents will do what they can with what they have. When my kids were
little and we had a lot less money, we'd just go for a walk and see
interesting things. We'd watch the workers at a construction site and
pick up leaves and splash in puddles. We spent long long days at the
beach or at a park. If we wanted to buy something that we didn't have
the money for, we'd save together, as a family.

We should be honest about what we can afford - honest with ourselves and
our kids. It is hypocritical to say we can't afford candy if we're
buying coffee and donuts. But we don't need a lot of money to be really
great unschoolers - we just need to be interested in the world, see it
as a big giant museum of everything.



-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 11/14/2009 12:10 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
> I have started to get sick of the stupid plots that never end,

The Office, Project Runway, Nova, Mad Men, Colbert Report, Daily Show,
the Simpsons, West Wing, How I Met Your Mother, Lost, Dexter -- all
shows we've watched in the last couple of weeks (some on DVD of course).
I cannot for the life of me imagine how anybody with half a brain can
say tv is nothing but stupid plots. There is WAY too much fantastic
stuff on tv for us to find time to watch as much as we'd like.

I just don't buy that "TV is stupid" and I'm tempted to say that people
who think TV is stupid are themselves, well...my ending is as
predictable as "The Office" is not. <g>

Jenny Cyphers

***On 11/14/2009 12:10 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
> I have started to get sick of the stupid plots that never end,***
 
Wait!  I didn't say that!  I love tv! 

***There is WAY too much fantastic
stuff on tv for us to find time to watch as much as we'd like.***
 
This is how I feel when adding things to my netflix queue.  I don't think I'll ever get caught up with my queue, if I ever do.  I love that I have an abundance of cool stuff waiting for me to see.  Margaux has been watching lots of things via netflix. 
 
Yesterday though, she watched regular tv.  She watched a show about giant squid and whales and one about sharks, then she watched a bunch of Cash Cab, which is a great trivia show, then some South Park.  Today she's been in the tub for a couple of hours reliving giant squid, whales and sharks, and you can tell that she learned a huge amount about ocean life because of the things she's saying in her play.  She's discovering all kinds of things about life in her very very long bath.  It's been a very tv inspired bath!





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carnationsgalore

> Do we get to choose how to spend our money? Or do the children
> get a say in it?

I see this as a very important statement. Why is it "our" money? Because the parents earned it? On that technicality, are my opinions not important because my husband has the money-earning job and I don't earn a salary? Is it the attitude that only an adult knows how to spend money wisely? (My 11 yr. old daughter has more money in her wallet than I do in mine!)

I can see a certain amount of money is needed for important obligations such as mortgage/rent, utilities and food. Even my children understand that. I don't see why other money can't be used for everyone in the family rather than just the parents. It reminds me of the seagulls in the movie Finding Nemo that squawk Mine, Mine, Mine!

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

My whole week has been nearly TV-free. I did watch CBS Sunday
Morning. I missed House and The Big Bang Theory on Monday, because
Hema, Ravi & family were here. Then we had three days of monkey-
platter and company. One night Raghu watched Mary Poppins, so I saw a
little of that in passing. I watched the weather one night because
Keith had gone to talk to Holly and I paid attention to the weather so
I could tell him what they said.

That's it. It's Saturday. I hope I can find those two I missed, but
I have company until midday Monday (Hema's family is in Santa Fe, but
they'll be back at noon tomorrow and we have more people coming over
at 1:00).

I love this week but it's been exhausting. Photos are being gathered
here:
http://monkeyplatterfestival.blogspot.com/

Some weeks running around with people is the greatest possible thing;
sometimes sitting in front of a fire, wrapped in a blanket, watching
TV, is perfect.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 14, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:

> I just don't buy that "TV is stupid" and I'm tempted to say that
> people
> who think TV is stupid are themselves, well...my ending is as
> predictable as "The Office" is not. <g>

It's like saying books are stupid or music is stupid because someone
doesn't find chunks of it appealing.

TV is as varied as Pride and Prejudice (with or without Zombies!),
Captain Underpants, The Joy of Cooking and The Bible; as varied a
Beethoven's Symphony No. 7, Butthole Surfers, Robert Johnson's blues
and the soundtrack from Rent.

And a mother who condemns books based on a few or even several dozen
she finds poorly written is going to whittle away her relationship
with her kids if she uses that as reasoning why her kids won't find
Harry Potter books worthwhile.

Joyce

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Ed Wendell

on TV and books and entertainment


I love to read, however I read various types of books / materials. Same as with TV / media. Sometimes I am interested in learning and sometimes it is pure entertainment/relaxation.

People used to sit on their front porches in a swing at the end of a long day - pure relaxation - I remember those days. Many people glorify those days, but how is relaxing in a swing any better than relaxing in front of a TV? We lived on a farm so we did not greet people as they passed by.

TV / media has opened the world up to more people - people that don't read so well or do not enjoy reading.

I have two sisters that do not enjoy reading books, they read just fine, they just do not enjoy reading books. One is an RN and the other is an Architect - my brother only reads books that will help him in his business. I read a wide variety of books from romance novels to Smithsonian magazine and informational books - I'll read just about anything. Reading is my escape mechanisim.

Zac is 15 and does not read huge thick books, magazines, nor the news paper (he does enjoy manga books) BUT he will watch TV / media sources and has learned an enormous amount of information - a variety of information about the world he lives in through TV and the internet.

On any given day he might watch The History Channel, The Military Channel, The Comedy Channel, National Geographic, NICK, Disney, SciFi channel, well just about anything to be honest. Lately he has been watching stuff on-line. He has found old TV shows like ALF, Hogan's Heroes, MASH, old Looney Toons - which by the way has a ton of history in them, We have had some great discussions about social history / history due to these old shows. In fact, much of what he knows cannot be learned from a still life book - but can be learned from film - moving pictures - recorded movements and voices.

For example: seeing and hearing Martin Luther King Jr give his speech is much more powerful than reading about it. Seeing Bugs Bunny in an old WWII cartoon is much more informational than reading about it - or looking at the stills. Watching old news reels is great for learning history. I'm not bashing books as I love love love books myself BUT film is so important to our learning and living in the world.

We have Cable TV because of where we live. We live near a radio tower so it interferes with our reception - we receive no channels at all, no radio either. Cable TV is worth the investment - same for our internet.

When we purchased our vehicle last spring it came with XM radio - at the time I thought "now why would anyone pay for satellite radio when you can get local stations for free?" however - our free subscription is almost up and now I'm thinking I'll renew it and here's why: Zac has been learning all about various types of music. Right now he is into 40's swing music. He never would have come across it if it had not been for an XM station that plays nothing but 40's - there are stations for each decade and he loves trying them out. This is a natural flowing of learning / living for him. The XM radio stations have expanded his world/history/enjoyment/etc.


Lisa W.












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lalow66

>
> TV / media has opened the world up to more people - people that don't read so well or do not enjoy reading.
>

The other week while the kids were playing dodgeball at a homeschool get together I listened for several minutes to another mother talk about her views on the "junk" on t.v (SpongeBob in particular) She was saying when their tv broke they would not be replacing it. since the switchover to digital they dont even get PBS anymore anyway. But as she talked I started thinking about Spongebob and how much joy that silly sponge has brought our family and for that reason ALONE he isnt junk. Honestly, I think my kids have learned alot about loyalty, friendship, humor, sea creatures, etc.. etc.. from SpongeBob. But they have also spent many hours bonding and laughing with each other and my husband and I. And I think that is something.

Ed Wendell

Probably the most / best something there is in life.

Lately Zac (15) has taken it on to saving his favorite Looney Toons cartoons that he finds on-line while I'm not available (either at work or asleep) and then will show them to me here and there. It's a connection - he has come up with a way (another way) to connect with me. We've had some good connections and laughs over the past couple of weeks. I remember his first exposure to opera was through Looney Toons when he was about 3 or 5. Looney Toons has fun with parodies of opera, classical piano, and various movies of old. We watched a Loony Toons parody of Casablanca the other day.


Lisa W.



----- Original Message -----
From: lalow66

But they have also spent many hours bonding and laughing with each other and my husband and I. And I think that is something.




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flhomeschooling

I'm a single parent who lives on a relatively strict fixed budget. We get enough child support for rent and utilities and that's it. I work part time for everything else. We live in a tiny 1BR apartment in a bad neighborhood (working on upgrading this but for now...) and we can't afford a lot of "luxuries." In fact, technically, my income is below the poverty line in the US.

My kid is heavy into technology and the things he wants are seriously expensive - he wants to learn digital filmmaking, for example. I don't usually have a lot of money to spend on vacations, outings, possessions. He knows we're not rich, but he has no idea we're everyone's idea of poor.

The fact is, even very young children can understand the concept of "I would love to buy that for you RIGHT NOW, but it's going to have to wait until payday/ Christmas/ your birthday/ you ask grandma/ whatever." My son is about to turn 12 and he has always seemed to appreciate the sentiment that Mom would love to buy what he wants, too, but she has finite amounts of money and sometimes there is a delay. The sentiment of "I would love to fulfill your wish so you could enjoy that" seems to resonate much stronger than the part that says "but I can't right this second - though I promise I will, as soon as I can." I think maybe because the validation of his needs/wants as important is at least as important to him as getting the thing he's wanting at the moment.

In my experience, though, this comes with a caveat. You can't say this and not mean it wholeheartedly. You can't say this and then go buy xyz luxury for yourself or someone else (even the kid in question), that costs as much as what the kid wanted. This makes "I would LOVE to!" a lie. You would not love to, you would prefer to get yourself a really nice haircut or the family a new TV or a vacation to Disneyworld or whatever instead. Children notice this discrepancy, and it will damage your relationship and trust with your child.

What else is my money for if not for enabling happiness, security and good times for my family? This doesn't mean we live like millionaires. We live extremely humble lives. We pay our bills and then whatever's leftover the two of us spend in ways that make us happy. And what makes him happy makes me happy. I work hard at letting my kid know that if he wants something, he can tell me, and we can see what we can do about getting it for him somehow or another. I see that he trusts with absolute certainty that "I can't right now but I will ASAP" coming from me is true.

I have read elsewhere that the unschooling idea of "saying something like yes" aka "but I will as soon as possible" instead of yes is a clever way of saying no which "proves" parents have to say no sometimes. But I think that is a myopic view of the parent-child relationship. It's "no" only in the ver short-term - even toddlers can grasp that when said sincerely, it's a yes in the long term.

Andrea in Miami

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have read elsewhere that the unschooling idea of "saying
something like yes" aka "but I will as soon as possible" instead of
yes is a clever way of saying no which "proves" parents have to say no
sometimes.-=-

People will find ways to complain about what unschoolers advise no
matter what, it seems.
Some people will cling to their cynicism no matter how many others
around them discover the poison that cynicism is to relationships and
joy.

Sandra

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Pam Sorooshian

>>>The sentiment of "I would love to fulfill your wish so you could
enjoy that" seems to resonate much stronger than the part that says "but
I can't right this second - though I promise I will, as soon as I can."
I think maybe because the validation of his needs/wants as important is
at least as important to him as getting the thing he's wanting at the
moment. <<<

I think this is true - as far as it goes. Can't tell from what you
wrote, but there might be more interaction in terms of figuring out
together whether there is something else he'd like to give up in order
to save more quickly for this. But, yes, this sounds good - it sounds
like trying to find a way to honestly say yes more, as opposed to
someone who, for example, says, "No way, I'm not spending that much
money on that."

> In my experience, though, this comes with a caveat. You can't say this and not mean it wholeheartedly. You can't say this and then go buy xyz luxury for yourself or someone else (even the kid in question), that costs as much as what the kid wanted.
>

Very true. And, if you do mean it, you'll also mean that you're open to
his input and ideas of ways to get it or to accomplish the same thing
without the big expense. It promises creativity in trying to figure out
ways to get him what he wants, too.

> I have read elsewhere that the unschooling idea of "saying something like yes" aka "but I will as soon as possible" instead of yes is a clever way of saying no which "proves" parents have to say no sometimes.

You've misunderstood the advice. The advice is to say yes as often as
you can - not to arbitrarily say no. But if a kid is asking to buy
something, how is "I will as soon as possible" the same as "no?" Say it
out loud - "No, I will as soon as possible" doesn't even make sense.
"Yes, I will as soon as possible," does make sense.

Unless - you thought the advice was, "Say yes IMMEDIATELY to everything
a child asks for the minute they ask for it even if you have to spend
your rent money so you'll end up homeless because of it."

Seriously - do you think we're stupid? <G>

> But I think that is a myopic view of the parent-child relationship. It's "no" only in the ver short-term - even toddlers can grasp that when said sincerely, it's a yes in the long term.
>

Toddlers will grow into children who trust their parents IF the parents
carry through on what they say.

But, stand in the grocery store and watch parents at the check stand
with their kids. You will see them slap their kids hands away from the
candy that costs less than a dollar, or say, "No, and stop asking!" and
you'll see things like a case of beer in their cart (which I'm pretty
sure is for them, not their kids).

Not sure why, but you sound like you're arguing against our advice and
then giving the same advice, but with a slightly more negative spin on
it. Seems like it bothers you that you can't give your kid everything he
wants the instant he wants it --- but that isn't what we're
recommending, that would be silly, very few people live without any
budget constraint and, as far as I know, Bill and Linda Gates are not
reading this list <G>.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-> I have read elsewhere that the unschooling idea of "saying
something like yes" aka "but I will as soon as possible" instead of
yes is a clever way of saying no which "proves" parents have to say no
sometimes.

-=-You've misunderstood the advice. -=-

She was saying she read somewhere else that others claimed that
unschooelers were cleverly saying no.
Other people do think we're stupid, yes. <G>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

flhomeschooling

> Very true. And, if you do mean it, you'll also mean that you're open to
> his input and ideas of ways to get it or to accomplish the same thing
> without the big expense. It promises creativity in trying to figure out
> ways to get him what he wants, too.

My kid knows and loves Craigslist, FreeCycle and eBay for this very reason.

> > I have read elsewhere that the unschooling idea of "saying something like yes" aka "but I will as soon as possible" instead of yes is a clever way of saying no which "proves" parents have to say no sometimes.
>
> You've misunderstood the advice.

No, I've not misunderstood anything. You misread what I wrote.

I was responding to the woman who was asking if unschooling meant everything the child wants has to be given immediately and if the money she earns can't be kept for her own needs and wants over the child's.

I said that it is possible to always "say yes or something like yes" even if you're poor, and that WHILE some people argue that this is a way of saying no, I disagree with that statement.

> if a kid is asking to buy
> something, how is "I will as soon as possible" the same as "no?"

If the child wants something RIGHT NOW, then "I will as soon as possible" is tantamount to "No, you can't have it right now." It is a no in the *short-term*. But if it also comes with "Yes, I will as soon as I can," then it's a yes in the *long-term*. If you mean it, if you really are making an effort to give the kid the yes ASAP, it will add to a trusting, peaceful relationship with a kid even with the "short-term no."

I see all of this as an ongoing narrative between the parent and the child. The child asks, "Will you meet my needs? Are you willing to?" And the parent can respond in ways that say, "Yes, I am paying attention to your needs, and I am willing to do everything I can to meet your needs." Or the parent can respond in ways that communicate, "Your needs are a nuisance to me. I am unwilling to meet them. I prioritize other things above them."

If a parent honestly says, "I don't have the money for that right now, but I would love to get that for you ASAP, let's figure out how to make that happen," then what is being communicated there is "Yes, I am willing to meet your needs" even with the "short term no."

> Unless - you thought the advice was, "Say yes IMMEDIATELY to everything
> a child asks for the minute they ask for it even if you have to spend
> your rent money so you'll end up homeless because of it."
>
> Seriously - do you think we're stupid? <G>

Respectfully, I think you may have gotten me confused with the original poster. :)

> Seems like it bothers you that you can't give your kid everything he wants the instant he wants it

I didn't say or imply anything like that, but wouldn't we all love to give our kids everything they want the instant they want it if we were able to? I don't think that desire is a bad thing.

The email was a response to a person bemoaning that they were very poor. I'm officially poor according to the US poverty guidelines, but the point about always saying yes or something like it, as I understand it, is not to buy them everything in the universe and to hell with paying bills, but to establish a relationship where the child trusts that you don't say no arbitrarily. Through this lens, "limited means" isn't ever going to be an obstacle to peaceful parenting.

Andrea in Miami

Robyn L. Coburn

> You've misunderstood the advice. The advice is to say yes as often as
> you can - not to arbitrarily say no. But if a kid is asking to buy
> something, how is "I will as soon as possible" the same as "no?" Say it
> out loud - "No, I will as soon as possible" doesn't even make sense.
> "Yes, I will as soon as possible," does make sense.

I didn't get that the poster misunderstood the advice. I thought she meant
that she has heard other folks - critics of unschooling - twisting the
advice into a criticism with that awful triumphant "neener" attitude of
scoring a point.

People who are determined to poo-poo unschooling will come up with these
twisted interpretations of the recommendations. Right up there with: "It's
freedom instead of education".


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Kim Zerbe

<<You don't have to give your children a say in ANYthing, ever. Never.
The result of that would probably be that you had children who lied
and stole from you, or ran away, or killed themselves, or who decided
to roll over and go with it, and then would become controlling of
their own children (and friends, and neighbors, and strangers).
That's what I think, anyway. That's what I've seen in my life. >>


My parents never taught me how to make ANY choices let alone GOOD choices.
When we went out to dinner, my dad would order for us. Once when I was a
teenager he asked me what I wanted and I had no clue! I didn't know what I
wanted! Could choose anything off the menu? Would they be mad if it cost too
much? What if I didn't like it?! etc. I asked him what I liked and he
ordered for me! (I was still a wreck like this when I met my husband in
college! He thought it was too weird that I would let him order for me.)

My dad beat me until I was 13 and my mom has been emotionally and verbally
abusive my whole life. I never lied or stole from my parents or broke their
rules while I was living with them (mainly out of fear of what my dad would
do to me, NOT because I had learned how to make good choices!), but I
rebelled once I moved out and went to college. There were SO many choices
out in the world! I had no idea how to even know what to choose!!! I made
some bad choices (that seemed good at the time) and could not balance my
life, so I dropped out of school. BUT I did not move back in with THEM, I
moved with my boyfriend (now husband) and never looked back.

I used to think about suicide all the time (from 12-18), but never tried it
because I figured that would be giving them the easy way out. They'd get
what they always wanted, me out of their lives! Plus if it didn't work, I"d
be in HUGE trouble!

After I dropped out of college, I swore to myself that I would NEVER go
crawling back to my parents for any kind of support or money or anything.
Their help would come with strings. And verbal abuse. I had hoped it would
work out with my college boyfriend (whew, it did!) but if we had broken up
and I had no money or anything, I still would not have called my parents.

Now I don't even talk to my parents. For me, this has been a very healthy
choice!!! I tried for years to communicate with my mom and I needed to know
why she did some of the things she did, but she preferred to ignore the past
and "let's just move forward" which I couldn't do without an explaination.
Eventually I stopped asking for what she couldn't give me and let it go. I
saw them last Christmas at my sister's but really have not talked to my mom
since then. It has alienated me from my sisters who talk to my mom daily and
are still stuck in their world and one is raising her kids like we were
raised. The other has no kids and is an alcoholic (but married to a doctor
so they have money to have fun with instead of kids).

Do you think this is what they wanted for me?! I"m sure they'd love to have
me in their lives now, if not to continue controlling, at least to KNOW and
be able to know my son, their grandson.

I have a friend with a 12yr old boy and 4yr old girl. She is having so much
trouble with the boy and nothing seems to work. He is failing school and
resents his sister. Mom has taken away access to TV, phone, internet, etc,
and was threatening to take the door off his room!!! I don't know what to
say to her, but I asked how her approach was working and she knows it's NOT
working. I talked to her, but it's tough. I don't know if she listens to me
since I don't have a teenager, I only know what I've read and observed, but
I think that's a lot. I don't want them to end up like me! I know she loves
her son, and would be devastated if he left and never looked back! I loaned
her a video (Hold Onto Your Kids) and suggested a book she might read. (I
loaned her the HOYK book months ago but she hasn't read it!)

Oops! This comparison turned into a post asking for advice! I guess I needed
to put that out there. If anyone has any advice on what I can do to help or
how to talk to this friend, let me know.

Thanks,
Kim in Oregon




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

whatsreal12

Your post was very inspirational, you must be very proud of how far you have come. I wanted to offer your friend the one tool that worked for my family in case it might help.

It makes me crazy when I can't remember the title of a book, so now I have to give you my version and perhaps someone else can supply the book title!

Basically this book talks about dealing with a child labeled 'difficult' or 'hard to handle' (ie independent and strong willed) and mentions that with some of these children, the parent/child interaction becomes a battle of wills, only as the parent attempts to wrest control they come up with more and more outlandish ante to up and the child never does back down. The parent is thinking "of course, the child will back down if I say I am taking away all of their toys" (that is honestly some of the mainstream advice out there, designed I suppose to "show them who's boss). I recognized it when you said she threatened to take his door down, because that advice was given to us!

Instead of these ridiculous and exponentially increasing "punishments" the book suggests a simple cool down period for both parties - ours was 20 minutes. The author acknowledges traditional parents' reluctance to let a "wrong" go uncorrected, but makes the point that at the point of conflict, the child is 'stuck'. There is literally nothing you can do that will help a child with these tendencies get unstuck... nothing! He then makes a very useful analogy to say that that being stuck is exactly like a diesel engine with an air bubble in the line... nothing but time is going to release that air bubble. You can press the gas all you like, you can hit the steering wheel, but only time will clear the line.

This method worked like a charm for us (not to say perfectly every time) but gradually the volatility died down to nearly nothing.
I should say that we incorporated this with respectful parenting, listening to his concerns after the cool down and not assigning blame, just discussing the events/situation that led to the conflict. As a result, I could not ask for a more loving, mutually respectful and joyous relationship with my teenage son.

So, if anyone knows the name of that book..please remind me! and Kim, I think your friend is lucky to have you, and to be like you would not be a bad thing at all... it seems we all have our journey.
Cynthia in AZ



--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...> wrote:
> I have a friend with a 12yr old boy and 4yr old girl. She is having so much
> trouble with the boy and nothing seems to work. He is failing school and
> resents his sister. Mom has taken away access to TV, phone, internet, etc,
> and was threatening to take the door off his room!!! I don't know what to
> say to her, but I asked how her approach was working and she knows it's NOT
> working. I talked to her, but it's tough. I don't know if she listens to me
> since I don't have a teenager, I only know what I've read and observed, but
> I think that's a lot. I don't want them to end up like me! I know she loves
> her son, and would be devastated if he left and never looked back! I loaned
> her a video (Hold Onto Your Kids) and suggested a book she might read. (I
> loaned her the HOYK book months ago but she hasn't read it!)
>
> Oops! This comparison turned into a post asking for advice! I guess I needed
> to put that out there. If anyone has any advice on what I can do to help or
> how to talk to this friend, let me know.
>
> Thanks,
> Kim in Oregon
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Beth

=\=I have a friend with a 12yr old boy and 4yr old girl. She is having so
much
trouble with the boy and nothing seems to work. He is failing school and
resents his sister. Mom has taken away access to TV, phone, internet, etc,
and was threatening to take the door off his room!!! I don't know what to
say to her, but I asked how her approach was working and she knows it's NOT
working. I talked to her, but it's tough. I don't know if she listens to me
since I don't have a teenager, I only know what I've read and observed, but
I think that's a lot. =\=

I think the best you can do is offer advice and make recommendations like
you have been. You really don't have any control over whether or not she
chooses to take your suggestions into consideration.

Just this morning I had a conversation with a mom whose daughter is 17, a
year younger than my oldest. She was telling me that over the weekend her
husband marched into her daughter's room, gathered all of her things that
were lying on her bedroom floor, and piled them on top of her bed to force
her to put things away and clean up her mess. She was very proud of her
husband, and said to me "We've tried absolutely everything to get that girl
to clean her room, but nothing has worked!" I asked her if she had tried
closing the bedroom door so they didn't have to look at the mess if it
bothered them that much. She kind of sat there and didn't say anything for
a few minutes, then continued with "Well it is her room, but it's OUR
house...blah, blah, blah."

I was tempted to ask her what she would do if her husband went into her
office (which is pretty darned messy) and gathered all of her things up and
piled them in the middle of her desk, but I didn't. I didn't think she
would see that as the same thing because she views adults and children as
two different classes of people.

This woman's daughter is a good kid. She gets good grades, plays varsity
softball, has a part-time job, etc, but she clashes with her parents
constantly. The mom always marvels at my relationship with my girls (18 &
15). She wants the same sort of relationship with her own daughter, but
she's not willing to do the work to make that happen. You can't help
someone who doesn't want help badly enough to step out of her comfort zone.

Beth D.

Robyn L. Coburn

I agree with the idea of cool down time. Silent waiting has been better than
feeding a negative situation with more negative energy around here. I
couldn't put a time to it though - it seems like only a few minutes but I'm
sure it varies.

But is this true?
<<<<There is literally nothing you can do that will help a child with these
tendencies get unstuck... nothing! >>>

What Jayn has asked me to do specifically is hug her, and hug her tight. She
sometimes flails for a tiny moment, but then hugs back. This is an almost
instant unsticker for her. The hugging is especially important to her even
when I least feel like doing it - when she has hit me or shouted angrily.
The change in her state is to immediate remorse and pleasantness - and
willingness to talk about what happened.

In the past there has been times when a physcial knock has been the sudden
catalyst for crying which also unsticks. I don't mean hitting her - I mean
she might be throwing herself around and accidentally bang her hand on the
back of the sofa or stub her toe and it acted like a reset button.

Jayn's volatility has died down noticeably in recent times - a combination
of maturity and consistently hugging in the stressful moments. I know not
all kids would want this.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-. The mom always marvels at my relationship with my girls (18 &
15). She wants the same sort of relationship with her own daughter, but
she's not willing to do the work to make that happen. You can't help
someone who doesn't want help badly enough to step out of her comfort
zone.-=-

I was reading an article saying that people who wake up at 3:00 every
night might have liver problems (Chinese-medicine recommendation, not
mainstream medicine, which has a pill for that waking-up problem), or
something. And I do, and I have had liver issues before, and I
thought "Good! I can deal with my liver and sleep longer!" but the
first item was to cut out all caffein, and I love my tea... So I
immediately decided I would rather drink tea and wake up at 3:00 every
night than to go without caffein.

Some parents would rather continue to press kids to clean their rooms
and go to school and follow arbitrary rules. They also want the kind
of relationship I have with my kids. They can't have both.

There have been some unschoolers who clung to one or another
mainstream "rule" and a couple have assured me that their families are
just as happy as mine, but my kids know their kids, and their kids
post things in public, and it seems not to be quite as happy as mine,
and it seems clearly to do with the parental rules. Antagonism and
"us vs. you" within a family cannot breed soft, peaceful, relaxed
relationships.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anne Mills

do you know that you can decaffein you tea quite a bit by pouring the hot water on the bag and get rid of the first few seconds of brewed water.You then make your tea with that tea bag. Tastes the same and is much decaffeined this way.
I learned that for breasfeeding purposes. Anne






To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:39:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] ...restrictions...




























-=-. The mom always marvels at my relationship with my girls (18 &

15). She wants the same sort of relationship with her own daughter, but

she's not willing to do the work to make that happen. You can't help

someone who doesn't want help badly enough to step out of her comfort

zone.-=-



I was reading an article saying that people who wake up at 3:00 every

night might have liver problems (Chinese-medicine recommendation, not

mainstream medicine, which has a pill for that waking-up problem), or

something. And I do, and I have had liver issues before, and I

thought "Good! I can deal with my liver and sleep longer!" but the

first item was to cut out all caffein, and I love my tea... So I

immediately decided I would rather drink tea and wake up at 3:00 every

night than to go without caffein.



Some parents would rather continue to press kids to clean their rooms

and go to school and follow arbitrary rules. They also want the kind

of relationship I have with my kids. They can't have both.



There have been some unschoolers who clung to one or another

mainstream "rule" and a couple have assured me that their families are

just as happy as mine, but my kids know their kids, and their kids

post things in public, and it seems not to be quite as happy as mine,

and it seems clearly to do with the parental rules. Antagonism and

"us vs. you" within a family cannot breed soft, peaceful, relaxed

relationships.



Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















_________________________________________________________________
Tchattez en direct en en vid�o avec vos amis !
http://www.windowslive.fr/messenger/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

thecugals

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
But, yes, this sounds good - it sounds
like trying to find a way to honestly say yes more, as opposed to
someone who, for example, says, "No way, I'm not spending that much
money on that."

But is it never appropriate to say that? Tonight my 8yo daughter and I were in a local shop, where she found a handmade glass bead for $25. I said, "That's a lot of money for one bead!" And she said, "But it's handmade." Long story short, she persisted in wanting this bead, but my husband and I didn't want to spend that much money on that. We had $25 to spend, and if WE thought it worthwhile to spend the money in that way we would have. But we didn't. So we tried explaining in different ways why, in our opinion, $25 for one bead was not a good value. She never did agree with our point of view, so I ended up telling her that we were not willing to buy it for her, but she could save up her own money and buy it herself." (She has an allowance.) Would love your opinions about this.

Beth C.

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< She never did agree with our point of view, so I ended up telling her
that we were not willing to buy it for her, but she could save up her own
money and buy it herself." (She has an allowance.) Would love your opinions
about this. >>>>

Some of Jayn's greatest learning experiences have been with her purchasing
items of dubious quality, and then coming to the realization herself that
this brand or type is not worth the money. Other times, I've thought things
were overly expensive, but the level of joy that owning the object gives her
seems worth the price.

If $25 was what I had budgeted for this shopping trip, and this was what she
wanted to spend it on, I would have bought it for her, with the
understanding that this was all we were spending today. We usually go into
shops with a maximum budget - she has that amount and she chooses how it is
spent.

I think if Jayn had an allowance, and I could afford the money, in this
situation I might offer to split the cost with her.

However, in this very specific instance I want to talk to you about handmade
items in general and glass beads in particular.

If you are shopping in a small, local craft/art store hand crafted things
are going to be more expensive. As an artisan myself, it is very hard to
compete on price points with mass produced, even hand made mass produced,
items being made by workers in foreign lands whose wages are pennies per
hour. A $25 dollar bead probably represents an investment of time and care
by a local artisan plus what could easily be a 50% or more mark up by the
retailer.

I want to suggest that you can support your daughter's interest in beads and
her appreciation of the beauty of the handmade in several ways that might
make you feel that it is more worth it. If you take that same $25 to one of
the genuine hand crafts fairs that are abundant at this time of year or a
bead expo, you will probably find lampwork artists there selling beads and
be able to actually talk to the artist about his or her process. Most
artists love talking to kids especially. There is some amazing work out
there. And you will probably be able to get more for your money.

The tv show "That's Clever" (HGTV) often features glass artists and the time
consuming nature of lampwork is very evident. It's quite fascinating. I
could see myself really getting into it if I ever got started.

There are many hand made lampwork glass beads on Etsy under the supplies
tab. It can be a feast for the eyes.
www.etsy.com

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

thecugals

--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
>I think if Jayn had an allowance, and I could afford the money, in this
situation I might offer to split the cost with her.

We've done this in the past with both our kiddos, but there are two issues that held us back on this one. For one, my husband feels she was being extravagant and didn't want to support that. For example, he is a true golf nut and works daily to improve his game, but he won't ever spend money on expensive new clubs. I don't spend much money on myself, either. That's why we give the kids allowances--so that they have some money to spend any which way they want, whether we think it's a good idea or not. The other issue is whimsy. At one point my daughter said, "Maybe I'll be able to stop thinking about it tomorrow." So then I had to ask her whether it was worth paying $25 for something she could possibly forget about the next day. But then I'm finding my own spending decisions to be somewhat whimsical, too. In the past week, my daughter has wanted a fill-in-the-blanks journal (bought it), a knitting kit (bought it), a $2 cookie (bought it), a 3-D puzzle (looked for it at Target and didn't find it), and a Rubik's puzzle of some kind (didn't buy it). Why was I willing to buy the 3-D puzzle and not the Rubik's puzzle? I know that part of the reason was because I thought the 3-D puzzle was something we could do together, whereas the other puzzle is something she would play with by herself. But is that fair or consistent? It seems to me I need some kind of guiding principle for spending money on these types of things.

Beth C.

Sandra Dodd

Some people say no first and think later, or they say no and never do
think.

There are some things I would be unwilling to "buy into" (literally).
Keith hates the idea of tattoos. I wouldn't want to pay for a tattoo
for any of my kids. None of them has one, but Holly's seriously
planning some.

Yesterday Holly bought a mask that cost over $100. It's beautiful.
It's fragile. So I pressed her to create a box or case for it so it
will be safe here with me and cats and such. She bought it from a
costume shop we've been in before. The last time she asked about
those masks, the one she wanted was $60. She had $60 of her own
money, but she figured there was no pressing need for it.

Tomorrow night, she and Marty and his girlfriend Ashlee are going to a
masked ball, with Renaissance dancing. It's an SCA event at the
University of New Mexico. It's a Toys for Tots event, too, so the
entry fee is the donation of a toy, for the Marines, to provide for
poorer children at Christmas.

So Holly is going to wear my wedding dress and she bought a mask to
match it. It wasn't a hasty decision at all. It's money she earned
working last winter and Spring, and that she still had in savings.

As to handmade beads, perhaps you could look on etsy shops for some.
She could even order her own colors. Maybe she could even find a
beadmaker and go and see them work. Possibly she could find a
beadmaker to let her try it. I've been in and around beadmaking
workshops, also in the SCA. The beginners' beads are lumpy. <g> But
with practice the best artists can do some very cool things. It
involves turning a ball of glass over a flame, and adding bits of
other colors. (The style I've seen does, anyway.)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know that part of the reason was because I thought the 3-D puzzle
was something we could do together, whereas the other puzzle is
something she would play with by herself. But is that fair or
consistent? It seems to me I need some kind of guiding principle for
spending money on these types of things.-=-

Consistency sounds like rules, in a situation like this. If one time
you veer off your chosen route and take the kids skinny-dipping, have
you set a precedent for all time? If one time you buy everyone a
costume when it's not even Halloween, would it be "unfair" or
inconsistent if you didn't do the same thing every year or anytime
anyone asked?

-=-For one, my husband feels she was being extravagant and didn't want
to support that. For example, he is a true golf nut and works daily to
improve his game, but he won't ever spend money on expensive new
clubs. I don't spend much money on myself, either. That's why we give
the kids allowances--so that they have some money to spend any which
way they want, whether we think it's a good idea or not.-=-

That's how we treated our children's allowances. They could spend it
the moment they got it, or save it. We would save it for them, if
they wanted. So instead of getting cash, they could write it on the
calendar, and it was in "the bank of dad." They could claim it
anytime they wanted it. Kirby went a whole year just adding it up on
the calendar once, because he had a job, so the allowance was his
savings. So each Sunday he would add the $12.75 or whatever it was
and put the new balance.

The allowance wasn't intended to press them to provide for
themselves. And if they wanted something I figured would provide
more-than-average learning, I was more likely to buy it, because it
seemed justifiable from an unschooling/homeschooling perspective. It
made our unschooling nest richer, especially if it was something
reuseable for years or that the kids would do together.

Things having to do with health or exercise were easy to decide, too.
They didn't have to provide those things for themselves.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]