"Free choice"
Sandra Dodd
From a different thread (since I'm starting a new one here):
-=-The equivalent of saying no, is not giving them a choice, no matter
how you
finagle it--a parent using words the children construe as a judgment,
is not
free choice. -=-
Then what would "free choice" be?
Silence on the part of the parents?
The parents wear a veil so the child can't perceive a facial
expression or a flash of the eyes?
The parents just not being there so the child can't perceive a grunt
or groan or sigh or body language?
Who said unschooling (or anything) requires "free choice"?
I VERY much prefer my children making informed choices.
Sandra
-=-The equivalent of saying no, is not giving them a choice, no matter
how you
finagle it--a parent using words the children construe as a judgment,
is not
free choice. -=-
Then what would "free choice" be?
Silence on the part of the parents?
The parents wear a veil so the child can't perceive a facial
expression or a flash of the eyes?
The parents just not being there so the child can't perceive a grunt
or groan or sigh or body language?
Who said unschooling (or anything) requires "free choice"?
I VERY much prefer my children making informed choices.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 13, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
also picturing a mom with a head full of knowledge about the "right
way" to eat, for example. And it becomes this sort of flood light
illuminating the only path that makes sense to follow because the
other paths lead to death by cancer causing chemicals.
I think the mom's fear and emotional investment that the child make
the choice the mom would is part of the difference but the everyday
use of "informed choice" doesn't really exclude that.
Drinking and driving is a similar situation where there's a clear
right choice and a clear wrong choice. Obviously I want Kathryn to
make the same choice I would, but I don't fear that she won't because
I trust her to make sensible choices.
Maybe the difference is that the right eating mother can't inform and
then trust her kids to figure out what's right for them. She informs
but also holds tight until she trusts they'll make the same choices
she would.
Joyce
> I VERY much prefer my children making informed choices.But what's the definition of informed? I know what you mean but I'm
also picturing a mom with a head full of knowledge about the "right
way" to eat, for example. And it becomes this sort of flood light
illuminating the only path that makes sense to follow because the
other paths lead to death by cancer causing chemicals.
I think the mom's fear and emotional investment that the child make
the choice the mom would is part of the difference but the everyday
use of "informed choice" doesn't really exclude that.
Drinking and driving is a similar situation where there's a clear
right choice and a clear wrong choice. Obviously I want Kathryn to
make the same choice I would, but I don't fear that she won't because
I trust her to make sensible choices.
Maybe the difference is that the right eating mother can't inform and
then trust her kids to figure out what's right for them. She informs
but also holds tight until she trusts they'll make the same choices
she would.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
I wrote:-=-I VERY much prefer my children making informed choices.-=-
Joyce wrote: -=-But what's the definition of informed? I know what
you mean but I'm
also picturing a mom with a head full of knowledge about the "right
way" to eat, for example. And it becomes this sort of flood light
illuminating the only path that makes sense to follow because the
other paths lead to death by cancer causing chemicals.-=-
If "free choice" is the ideal, and if parental advice or opinion
prevents "free choice," then I want nothing to do with it.
My kids ask advice from me, their dad, siblings, friends of theirs,
and they might look on web pages or in books. They don't do all of
that every single time, but they rarely make a decision about
something new or important without talking to two or more people.
I don't think that keeps it from being free choice.
When I advise one of my kids, I'm saying what I think they should
remember to consider in some particular situation, and why. That's
not removing their freedom.
The information people have when they make a decision might be scare
stories or propaganda or irrefutable fact, or they might have friends
telling them all-out lies. So not all information is equally valuable
or useful, but if a child or adult makes a decision without regard to
the feelings or knowledge of anyone else on the planet, that's not
"free choice." That's just flailing around, probably. It's like
throwing darts in the dark, if no one else's needs or opinions or
advice are to be considered.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce wrote: -=-But what's the definition of informed? I know what
you mean but I'm
also picturing a mom with a head full of knowledge about the "right
way" to eat, for example. And it becomes this sort of flood light
illuminating the only path that makes sense to follow because the
other paths lead to death by cancer causing chemicals.-=-
If "free choice" is the ideal, and if parental advice or opinion
prevents "free choice," then I want nothing to do with it.
My kids ask advice from me, their dad, siblings, friends of theirs,
and they might look on web pages or in books. They don't do all of
that every single time, but they rarely make a decision about
something new or important without talking to two or more people.
I don't think that keeps it from being free choice.
When I advise one of my kids, I'm saying what I think they should
remember to consider in some particular situation, and why. That's
not removing their freedom.
The information people have when they make a decision might be scare
stories or propaganda or irrefutable fact, or they might have friends
telling them all-out lies. So not all information is equally valuable
or useful, but if a child or adult makes a decision without regard to
the feelings or knowledge of anyone else on the planet, that's not
"free choice." That's just flailing around, probably. It's like
throwing darts in the dark, if no one else's needs or opinions or
advice are to be considered.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***The information people have when they make a decision might be scare
stories or propaganda or irrefutable fact, or they might have friends
telling them all-out lies. So not all information is equally valuable
or useful, but if a child or adult makes a decision without regard to
the feelings or knowledge of anyone else on the planet, that's not
"free choice." That's just flailing around, probably. It's like
throwing darts in the dark, if no one else's needs or opinions or
advice are to be considered.***
Or eating too many twinkies? I think we just got back to the twinkie defense. I was throwing darts in the dark because I ate too many twinkies. Fear, propaganda, food, and choice all rolled into one!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense
or go here and scroll down to the South Park video
http://sandradodd.com/connections/jokes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stories or propaganda or irrefutable fact, or they might have friends
telling them all-out lies. So not all information is equally valuable
or useful, but if a child or adult makes a decision without regard to
the feelings or knowledge of anyone else on the planet, that's not
"free choice." That's just flailing around, probably. It's like
throwing darts in the dark, if no one else's needs or opinions or
advice are to be considered.***
Or eating too many twinkies? I think we just got back to the twinkie defense. I was throwing darts in the dark because I ate too many twinkies. Fear, propaganda, food, and choice all rolled into one!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense
or go here and scroll down to the South Park video
http://sandradodd.com/connections/jokes
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kathryn
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
=But what's the definition of informed? I know what you mean but I'm
also picturing a mom with a head full of knowledge about the "right
way" to eat, for example. And it becomes this sort of flood light
illuminating the only path that makes sense to follow because the
other paths lead to death by cancer causing chemicals.=
Such a common scenario!
=Maybe the difference is that the right eating mother can't inform and
then trust her kids to figure out what's right for them. She informs
but also holds tight until she trusts they'll make the same choices
she would.=
A good friend of mine doesn't eat red meat. As at the age of 7 (significant age in accordance with Steiner schooling), her daughter is now allowed to *choose* whether she eats meat or not. Not without a large dose of judgement on behalf of the mother. At a recent BBQ, the kid was offered a sausage, and the mother went into all the details of where the meat was sourced, the way it is slaughtered, etc,etc, with an obvious tone of coercion. Obviously her daughter already *knew* all the gory details, yet still she chose to eat the sausage. 'Blah, blah, blah'comes to mind.
The other thing that comes to mind with this topic, is how the term 'informed' can be muddled with 'anti'. For example, I made an *informed* choice not to vaccinate my kids. However, I have come to pass many comments that presume I am *anti* vaccination because of this choice. This is simply not the case.
I am 36 years old; a child of conventional parenting. I was raised with the understanding that there is only two ways to do things; right or wrong. No choices. During my mid-twenties I dared to go outside the square, and realised for myself there are Other choices. I think this is why these *other* choices are given such respect. So many of us were raised with "my way or the wrong way" mentality, that Any other choice seems better! The excitement and illuminating light shining on the *better* way tends to overshadow the fact that there may be even More choice available. That the very Freedom to Choose is what is missing the most. Hope this makes sense -- I have trouble articulating . . .
Kathryn
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