Help!!
Kathryn
Hello all,
Today is a sad day here, as we gave our dog up for adoption. He was our first family dog -- close to 5 months old in age. We got him August 28. Only had him a couple of months, but much loved!
I have three kids. Mia (7) Jude (4) and Rueben (1). The dog, Fry, a Kelpie (cattle dog) has an energetic temperament which suited our family to a tea. Lots of backyard time, walks, beach/park visits, etc. Unfortunately, Jude loved to torment the dog all too much, and our fear of the kids being attacked grew. I showed the kids how to play with the dog and explained what his gestures (tail wagging, teeth showing, etc) meant. I actively involved them in his training. Jude never seemed to understand that throwing things at the dog isn't the done thing. The reminders were constant, "Don't torment the dog." "Treat the dog kindly." Blah, blah, blah . . . I know. Then Mia was caught yesterday throwing a metal food bowl at the dog's head. It was the last straw, and Fry was sadly taken to the local animal aid for rehousing. We would never forgive ourselves if one of the kids were attacked . . .
I've been very careful with what I say to Mia, because I understand that there is an underlying need here that I'm just not seeing. For a little girl that's close to 8, surely she understands the physical pain she can/could cause another? Her and her brother seem to encourage each other and (to use her words) *get caught in the moment*. Their mood at times of torment is always high energy/sillies. Like they are Out Of Control.
Thoughts, advice -- please!!
Kathryn
x
Today is a sad day here, as we gave our dog up for adoption. He was our first family dog -- close to 5 months old in age. We got him August 28. Only had him a couple of months, but much loved!
I have three kids. Mia (7) Jude (4) and Rueben (1). The dog, Fry, a Kelpie (cattle dog) has an energetic temperament which suited our family to a tea. Lots of backyard time, walks, beach/park visits, etc. Unfortunately, Jude loved to torment the dog all too much, and our fear of the kids being attacked grew. I showed the kids how to play with the dog and explained what his gestures (tail wagging, teeth showing, etc) meant. I actively involved them in his training. Jude never seemed to understand that throwing things at the dog isn't the done thing. The reminders were constant, "Don't torment the dog." "Treat the dog kindly." Blah, blah, blah . . . I know. Then Mia was caught yesterday throwing a metal food bowl at the dog's head. It was the last straw, and Fry was sadly taken to the local animal aid for rehousing. We would never forgive ourselves if one of the kids were attacked . . .
I've been very careful with what I say to Mia, because I understand that there is an underlying need here that I'm just not seeing. For a little girl that's close to 8, surely she understands the physical pain she can/could cause another? Her and her brother seem to encourage each other and (to use her words) *get caught in the moment*. Their mood at times of torment is always high energy/sillies. Like they are Out Of Control.
Thoughts, advice -- please!!
Kathryn
x
Sandra Dodd
-=- Jude never seemed to understand that throwing things at the dog
isn't the done thing. The reminders were constant, "Don't torment the
dog." "Treat the dog kindly." Blah, blah, blah . . . I know.-=-
I'm guessing you did speak sharply and say "NO" or "STOP."
It's not just an intellectual exercise when the object of torment is a
living creature.
I don't think it's a bad thing to just say you need to wait until
they're older to have a dog. Until they youngest can be really gentle.
-=-I've been very careful with what I say to Mia, because I understand
that there is an underlying need here that I'm just not seeing.-=-
Sometimes the obvious answer can be implemented without understanding
underlying needs. Either a family or a child would be well suited for
something or not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
isn't the done thing. The reminders were constant, "Don't torment the
dog." "Treat the dog kindly." Blah, blah, blah . . . I know.-=-
I'm guessing you did speak sharply and say "NO" or "STOP."
It's not just an intellectual exercise when the object of torment is a
living creature.
I don't think it's a bad thing to just say you need to wait until
they're older to have a dog. Until they youngest can be really gentle.
-=-I've been very careful with what I say to Mia, because I understand
that there is an underlying need here that I'm just not seeing.-=-
Sometimes the obvious answer can be implemented without understanding
underlying needs. Either a family or a child would be well suited for
something or not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
I am sorry that happened to your family. What type of advice are you asking for? If you are looking for a really patient dog breed, then a Golden Retriever is one that comes to mind. We adore our Golden and she loves water and going places with us. If you can find one that is house broken and over 1.5 years that would save you a lot of work. LOL. My boys are 5 and 7.5, and I think boys just naturally can be wild things. It doesn't sound like your little ones are acting any differently than mine have in the past. They outgrown a lot of that wildness.
Good luck!
~Heather
Good luck!
~Heather
--- In [email protected], "Kathryn" <kathryndubay@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Today is a sad day here, as we gave our dog up for adoption. He was our first family dog -- close to 5 months old in age. We got him August 28. Only had him a couple of months, but much loved!
>
> I have three kids. Mia (7) Jude (4) and Rueben (1). The dog, Fry, a Kelpie (cattle dog) has an energetic temperament which suited our family to a tea. Lots of backyard time, walks, beach/park visits, etc. Unfortunately, Jude loved to torment the dog all too much, and our fear of the kids being attacked grew. I showed the kids how to play with the dog and explained what his gestures (tail wagging, teeth showing, etc) meant. I actively involved them in his training. Jude never seemed to understand that throwing things at the dog isn't the done thing. The reminders were constant, "Don't torment the dog." "Treat the dog kindly." Blah, blah, blah . . . I know. Then Mia was caught yesterday throwing a metal food bowl at the dog's head. It was the last straw, and Fry was sadly taken to the local animal aid for rehousing. We would never forgive ourselves if one of the kids were attacked . . .
>
> I've been very careful with what I say to Mia, because I understand that there is an underlying need here that I'm just not seeing. For a little girl that's close to 8, surely she understands the physical pain she can/could cause another? Her and her brother seem to encourage each other and (to use her words) *get caught in the moment*. Their mood at times of torment is always high energy/sillies. Like they are Out Of Control.
>
> Thoughts, advice -- please!!
>
> Kathryn
> x
>
Heather
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
~Heather Brown
>These are really wonderful points. It made me think of all the times I got really emotional over the way an animal was being treated by my kids and their friends. Most of the time it was just boys teasing, but it still hit a nerve with me. I tried to explain how upsetting it must be for the animal and that the animal may have to defend themselves. And sometimes the child would get scratched or nipped (not by our Golden) by whatever pet or other person's animal we were with at the time.
> It's not just an intellectual exercise when the object of torment is a living creature.
>
>
> I don't think it's a bad thing to just say you need to wait until
> they're older to have a dog. Until they youngest can be really gentle.
> Sandra
>
~Heather Brown
Jenny Cyphers
***It was the last straw, and Fry was sadly taken to the local animal aid for rehousing. We would never forgive ourselves if one of the kids were attacked . . .***
***I've been very careful with what I say to Mia, because I understand that there is an underlying need here that I'm just not seeing. For a little girl that's close to 8, surely she understands the physical pain she can/could cause another? ***
It would be very hard to premise any kind of conversation to a child about the loss of their dog, when that child was the ultimate cause of that loss. What was the dog doing right before the attack of the bowl? What could everyone have done differently? Does it matter? The dog is gone. Some of the kids will view that as a relief and some will view that as a punishment and some may feel overwhelmed with guilty confusion. Perhaps each kid will experience a little bit of all of those things.
The parents made a decision to get a dog, then made a decision to get rid of a dog. I have pretty strong feelings about pets, not being temporary objects in a family life, so everything I say comes from this position. Border Collies are very intense dogs, known for not being great with kids, but also known for being very trainable and very smart. Training a dog involves a lot of time and effort, especially in the beginning. If a family doesn't have time to do that and they combine that with a dog that needs that and small kids that take that time, it seems like asking for problems. But once the dog is there, it needs to be done.
If the family had chosen to keep the dog, my suggestion would be to take the dog and the oldest child to dog training classes. Since we are talking about a situation in which the dog no longer exists in the family, my advice is to be kind and gentle to kids that are probably feeling like life is really sad and unfair and that mom and dad are mean.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***I've been very careful with what I say to Mia, because I understand that there is an underlying need here that I'm just not seeing. For a little girl that's close to 8, surely she understands the physical pain she can/could cause another? ***
It would be very hard to premise any kind of conversation to a child about the loss of their dog, when that child was the ultimate cause of that loss. What was the dog doing right before the attack of the bowl? What could everyone have done differently? Does it matter? The dog is gone. Some of the kids will view that as a relief and some will view that as a punishment and some may feel overwhelmed with guilty confusion. Perhaps each kid will experience a little bit of all of those things.
The parents made a decision to get a dog, then made a decision to get rid of a dog. I have pretty strong feelings about pets, not being temporary objects in a family life, so everything I say comes from this position. Border Collies are very intense dogs, known for not being great with kids, but also known for being very trainable and very smart. Training a dog involves a lot of time and effort, especially in the beginning. If a family doesn't have time to do that and they combine that with a dog that needs that and small kids that take that time, it seems like asking for problems. But once the dog is there, it needs to be done.
If the family had chosen to keep the dog, my suggestion would be to take the dog and the oldest child to dog training classes. Since we are talking about a situation in which the dog no longer exists in the family, my advice is to be kind and gentle to kids that are probably feeling like life is really sad and unfair and that mom and dad are mean.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If a family doesn't have time to do that and they combine that with
a dog that needs that and small kids that take that time, it seems
like asking for problems. But once the dog is there, it needs to be
done. -=-
Taking choice out of an equation is a recipe for guilt and harm.
I'm old enough and from the southwest enough to remember a time when
unwanted dogs were taken out and shot. Giving a dog a trial home and
giving it another chance for a better home is better than keeping a
dog for 15 years because of a decision made one day.
-=-Since we are talking about a situation in which the dog no longer
exists in the family, my advice is to be kind and gentle to kids that
are probably feeling like life is really sad and unfair and that mom
and dad are mean.-=-
Too harsh. You don't know they feel that way. Could be too projection.
The dog still exists. "The dog no longer exists" is rhetorical
cheating, no matter what phrase follows it.
-=-If the family had chosen to keep the dog, my suggestion would be to
take the dog and the oldest child to dog training classes-=-
Marty and Gudrun and I went to dog training classes when Gudrun was a
puppy and Marty was eight or nine. Because of the peaceful conditions
at our house, Marty was uncomfortable jerking the dog around the way
the teacher suggested. He wanted to quit the class after three
sessions, so we did. We used more gentle forms of communication and
it worked for us. Maybe our dog's just some kind of mind-reading
genius dog, or maybe because we were kind and gentle with her she
returned that. Maybe it's that Keith and I both had a lot of
experience with dogs before that.
It would be hard for a mom with three young children to spend patient
quiet time with a puppy. Maybe impossible. When the kids are older,
though, when the youngest is four or five, it might be doable.
The child, no matter how old, shouldn't be held responsible for dog
care or training. The parents can't delegate responsibility for
health and safety that way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a dog that needs that and small kids that take that time, it seems
like asking for problems. But once the dog is there, it needs to be
done. -=-
Taking choice out of an equation is a recipe for guilt and harm.
I'm old enough and from the southwest enough to remember a time when
unwanted dogs were taken out and shot. Giving a dog a trial home and
giving it another chance for a better home is better than keeping a
dog for 15 years because of a decision made one day.
-=-Since we are talking about a situation in which the dog no longer
exists in the family, my advice is to be kind and gentle to kids that
are probably feeling like life is really sad and unfair and that mom
and dad are mean.-=-
Too harsh. You don't know they feel that way. Could be too projection.
The dog still exists. "The dog no longer exists" is rhetorical
cheating, no matter what phrase follows it.
-=-If the family had chosen to keep the dog, my suggestion would be to
take the dog and the oldest child to dog training classes-=-
Marty and Gudrun and I went to dog training classes when Gudrun was a
puppy and Marty was eight or nine. Because of the peaceful conditions
at our house, Marty was uncomfortable jerking the dog around the way
the teacher suggested. He wanted to quit the class after three
sessions, so we did. We used more gentle forms of communication and
it worked for us. Maybe our dog's just some kind of mind-reading
genius dog, or maybe because we were kind and gentle with her she
returned that. Maybe it's that Keith and I both had a lot of
experience with dogs before that.
It would be hard for a mom with three young children to spend patient
quiet time with a puppy. Maybe impossible. When the kids are older,
though, when the youngest is four or five, it might be doable.
The child, no matter how old, shouldn't be held responsible for dog
care or training. The parents can't delegate responsibility for
health and safety that way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kathryn
Jenny said --
"If a family doesn't have time to do that and they combine that with
a dog that needs that and small kids that take that time, it seems
like asking for problems. But once the dog is there, it needs to be
done."
Sandra said --
"Taking choice out of an equation is a recipe for guilt and harm."
These two comments reflect the dilemma perfectly. My opinion of dog ownership is the same as Jenny's. So, on that personal level, I certainly feel I have adopted out a family member. It's heartbreaking. I feel I have exhausted all possible choices for peace. BUT -- harm was a very real possibility to either the dog or my kids. Dogs are dogs; unpredictable around children. We chose so get rid of the dog to avoid Any possibility of harm.
Appreciate the discussion. Some clarity has come of it! Wish things could have been different. . .
Kathryn
x
"If a family doesn't have time to do that and they combine that with
a dog that needs that and small kids that take that time, it seems
like asking for problems. But once the dog is there, it needs to be
done."
Sandra said --
"Taking choice out of an equation is a recipe for guilt and harm."
These two comments reflect the dilemma perfectly. My opinion of dog ownership is the same as Jenny's. So, on that personal level, I certainly feel I have adopted out a family member. It's heartbreaking. I feel I have exhausted all possible choices for peace. BUT -- harm was a very real possibility to either the dog or my kids. Dogs are dogs; unpredictable around children. We chose so get rid of the dog to avoid Any possibility of harm.
Appreciate the discussion. Some clarity has come of it! Wish things could have been different. . .
Kathryn
x
lalow66
we got a dog this summer too. He is about 4 1/2 months old and we have an older dog that we have had from before kids.
I understand the concerns. We waited till our youngest was 4 to get the puppy and it is working out pretty well.
I made the puppy his own space that he feels safe. He likes going in there and sleeping and when he wants out we take him out. When activity in the house gets to much I put him in there and he seems to like it. (chews on his toys, goes to sleep). I try to be with the kids when they are interacting with him. And although a couple of the kids are really very helpful in his care, I stay right there.
I dont think i could have done this with a baby in the house. All my kids (up to 8) need supervision with the puppy at different levels and honestly with a baby needs I dont think I could have provided the supervision for the puppy.
sometimes giving the dog another chance is the best thing.
I understand the concerns. We waited till our youngest was 4 to get the puppy and it is working out pretty well.
I made the puppy his own space that he feels safe. He likes going in there and sleeping and when he wants out we take him out. When activity in the house gets to much I put him in there and he seems to like it. (chews on his toys, goes to sleep). I try to be with the kids when they are interacting with him. And although a couple of the kids are really very helpful in his care, I stay right there.
I dont think i could have done this with a baby in the house. All my kids (up to 8) need supervision with the puppy at different levels and honestly with a baby needs I dont think I could have provided the supervision for the puppy.
sometimes giving the dog another chance is the best thing.
Karen Lindberg
***Marty and Gudrun and I went to dog training classes when Gudrun was a
puppy and Marty was eight or nine. Because of the peaceful conditions
at our house, Marty was uncomfortable jerking the dog around the way
the teacher suggested. He wanted to quit the class after three
sessions, so we did. We used more gentle forms of communication and
it worked for us. Maybe our dog's just some kind of mind-reading
genius dog, or maybe because we were kind and gentle with her she
returned that. Maybe it's that Keith and I both had a lot of
experience with dogs before that.***
I totally agree Sandra and to add to that: Before having kids and
knowing about unschooling, my dh and I trained a lab puppy using a
choker chain and compulsory methods. I can attest that I could never
train that way again. Fortunately, there is lots of research out
there that supports training dogs (all animals, actually) using
positive reinforcement and clicker methods. We got a 7 month old lab
puppy when my oldest was almost 4.5, my middle son was almost 2 and I
was pregnant with my 3d. Casey came from a positive reinforcement/
clicker training breeder, so she was trained, but I still had to put
in LOTS of time and energy to continue the training and to get used to
how to train that way myself, not to mention work with her on how to
not use my kids as bowling pins (she was a BIG girl at 7 mntsh LOL).
I can now attest that this training is WAY more in line with our
peaceful, respectful lives and that Casey is a happy member of our
family. We love having her so much we are considering getting a 10
week old puppy in December. Another lab and from a line that is laid
back (show line) and this one has been hand reared due to low milk
supply. I am told the whole little is very people friendly as a
result. :-)
My oldest, now 6.5 has expressed interest in doing some training with
me. He is not obligated, or responsible to do so in any way though.
Just if he wants. He has trained Casey and loves asking her to sit or
down and then clicks the clicker and tosses her a treat. No jerking
leashes around here! LOL
Just another perspective!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
puppy and Marty was eight or nine. Because of the peaceful conditions
at our house, Marty was uncomfortable jerking the dog around the way
the teacher suggested. He wanted to quit the class after three
sessions, so we did. We used more gentle forms of communication and
it worked for us. Maybe our dog's just some kind of mind-reading
genius dog, or maybe because we were kind and gentle with her she
returned that. Maybe it's that Keith and I both had a lot of
experience with dogs before that.***
I totally agree Sandra and to add to that: Before having kids and
knowing about unschooling, my dh and I trained a lab puppy using a
choker chain and compulsory methods. I can attest that I could never
train that way again. Fortunately, there is lots of research out
there that supports training dogs (all animals, actually) using
positive reinforcement and clicker methods. We got a 7 month old lab
puppy when my oldest was almost 4.5, my middle son was almost 2 and I
was pregnant with my 3d. Casey came from a positive reinforcement/
clicker training breeder, so she was trained, but I still had to put
in LOTS of time and energy to continue the training and to get used to
how to train that way myself, not to mention work with her on how to
not use my kids as bowling pins (she was a BIG girl at 7 mntsh LOL).
I can now attest that this training is WAY more in line with our
peaceful, respectful lives and that Casey is a happy member of our
family. We love having her so much we are considering getting a 10
week old puppy in December. Another lab and from a line that is laid
back (show line) and this one has been hand reared due to low milk
supply. I am told the whole little is very people friendly as a
result. :-)
My oldest, now 6.5 has expressed interest in doing some training with
me. He is not obligated, or responsible to do so in any way though.
Just if he wants. He has trained Casey and loves asking her to sit or
down and then clicks the clicker and tosses her a treat. No jerking
leashes around here! LOL
Just another perspective!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]