analogy i've been pondering
Lyla Wolfenstein
i just took a walk with my neighbor - she and i have been discussing unschooling, on sporadic walks together for the last year or so. her kids are in school, and her son, in particular is struggling - and she's very facinated by my experiences with unschooling and open to hearing all i have to say, and yet hasn't made the leap to being able to try it for her own family - she may- and she may never.
she was talking about "atypical" children, and how she needs no convicing about the academic aspects of unschooling - she's totally sold on the notions that real learning happens through passion and inspiration, etc.
it's the social learning - the being "in the world" and the ability to *conform* to societal expectations that she is struggling with - with a kid with an aspergers diagnosis, who struggles with that realm in particular, it's very hard for her to take that leap of faith and trust.
she mentioned temple grandin, the writer who's autistic - and apparently says that the rules and expectations that were immutable in her childhood - the requirements to conform and get outside her own head and world - are what saved her in some respects.
i pondered that for a few minutes, and then tried to describe how that social learning, that ability to engage with the world, comes from a place of *support* and partnership, not demand that someone stretch themselves further than they are ready. that perhaps having parents and other people in one's life who see the subtle cues of readiness for next steps into the greater world, especially for kids who are introverted and "in their own head" a lot, is, in my mind, so much more valuable than force or coerscion. that maybe for someone with a tendency to be reclusive and disconnected from the world, having NOBODY seeing those cues, or slowly, kindly, patiently, lovingly helping a child stretch toward the next step, would be devastating - but that doesn't mean that putting a kid in a school and therapies focused on premature stretching is inherently better - and that's where good unschooling solves the "problem."
i then developed an analogy i'm pretty happy with, and i wonder what others think -
it's about "absorption" - different forms of vitamins have different levels of absorbability - and our bodies have the capacity to metabolize each vitamin/nutrient differently - so, if you give a vitamin or nutrient (in food) in dosages that exceed what our body can absorb all at once, the excess is excreted, unused (or can build up and become toxic!) - and if you give a form of nutrient that is less well absorbed by our bodies - for instance the iron breastmilk vs. iron supplements - you will have to give a much larger quantity and at just the right times to even approximate the benefits our body gets from the highly aborbable form. if your body gets the benefit of nutrients in their most biologically natural state for superior absorption, no planning or thinking needs to go into it - health nutrition status just happens, exactly as it's designed to happen, in a biologically normal way.
with unschooling, being in tune with the subtle changes and readiness for new challanges in the social realm, and providing opportunities and being responsive to that readiness is like giving nutrients in their naturally bioavailable form - *for that person* - it's highly and readily absorbed and growth happens in leaps and bounds, with not a lot of energy wasted/excreted.
if we try to "give' our kids skills for which they are not ready, or push them to branch out and connect socially or with the larger world in ways that cause more stress than growth, it's like loading them with vitamins that are minimally absorbably, or giving them MORE vitamins than their bodies can absorb at one time - the excess is excreted at best (energy wasted) and toxic at worst - often a mix of the two.
this could apply to the more "academic" aspects of unschooling too.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
she was talking about "atypical" children, and how she needs no convicing about the academic aspects of unschooling - she's totally sold on the notions that real learning happens through passion and inspiration, etc.
it's the social learning - the being "in the world" and the ability to *conform* to societal expectations that she is struggling with - with a kid with an aspergers diagnosis, who struggles with that realm in particular, it's very hard for her to take that leap of faith and trust.
she mentioned temple grandin, the writer who's autistic - and apparently says that the rules and expectations that were immutable in her childhood - the requirements to conform and get outside her own head and world - are what saved her in some respects.
i pondered that for a few minutes, and then tried to describe how that social learning, that ability to engage with the world, comes from a place of *support* and partnership, not demand that someone stretch themselves further than they are ready. that perhaps having parents and other people in one's life who see the subtle cues of readiness for next steps into the greater world, especially for kids who are introverted and "in their own head" a lot, is, in my mind, so much more valuable than force or coerscion. that maybe for someone with a tendency to be reclusive and disconnected from the world, having NOBODY seeing those cues, or slowly, kindly, patiently, lovingly helping a child stretch toward the next step, would be devastating - but that doesn't mean that putting a kid in a school and therapies focused on premature stretching is inherently better - and that's where good unschooling solves the "problem."
i then developed an analogy i'm pretty happy with, and i wonder what others think -
it's about "absorption" - different forms of vitamins have different levels of absorbability - and our bodies have the capacity to metabolize each vitamin/nutrient differently - so, if you give a vitamin or nutrient (in food) in dosages that exceed what our body can absorb all at once, the excess is excreted, unused (or can build up and become toxic!) - and if you give a form of nutrient that is less well absorbed by our bodies - for instance the iron breastmilk vs. iron supplements - you will have to give a much larger quantity and at just the right times to even approximate the benefits our body gets from the highly aborbable form. if your body gets the benefit of nutrients in their most biologically natural state for superior absorption, no planning or thinking needs to go into it - health nutrition status just happens, exactly as it's designed to happen, in a biologically normal way.
with unschooling, being in tune with the subtle changes and readiness for new challanges in the social realm, and providing opportunities and being responsive to that readiness is like giving nutrients in their naturally bioavailable form - *for that person* - it's highly and readily absorbed and growth happens in leaps and bounds, with not a lot of energy wasted/excreted.
if we try to "give' our kids skills for which they are not ready, or push them to branch out and connect socially or with the larger world in ways that cause more stress than growth, it's like loading them with vitamins that are minimally absorbably, or giving them MORE vitamins than their bodies can absorb at one time - the excess is excreted at best (energy wasted) and toxic at worst - often a mix of the two.
this could apply to the more "academic" aspects of unschooling too.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marian_visser
I like that analogy. I'm still new to unschooling and have come to it afer struggling to homeschool my two dks, one of which is somewhere on the autism spectrum - adhdish. My realization, both with my son and with the kids I've worked with in the school system, is that you can't push a child to do something that they can't or aren't ready to do. That includes socialization, I think. My mom recently volunteered in a school - she had to supervise a child in an assignment. She tried working with the child and went back to the teacher. She told the teacher that he simply couldn't do the task. The teacher said, 'I know, but that's what's required of him'. So my mother was expected to basically babysit him while he attempted to accomplish something he was not capable of doing. She could have spent that hour actually playing games with him, reading to him -- anything but that.
i've watched my son attempt to write - he tells me that he knows the information in one part of his brain but he can't get it out the other side. I'm not going to push or insist that he do it now when he so obviously can't - it's not about spelling or letter formation or willingness - he just can't. Whether or not he can in the future irrelovant to me - he can't do it right now, so we find other ways for him to express himself. The same goes for socialization. There are days where social acitivities are simply too much -noisy, busy, complicated. Sometimes I just want to tell him to stop being such a poop, but really, he simply can't handle it at that time. There is no point in forcing a child into social situations they can't handle.
I think unschooling is the absolute best way for exceptional children - it's respectful and it focusses on what they CAN do. School focusses a whole lot on what they CAN'T do and spends a lot of time trying to figure out how to force a square peg child into a round hole society.
i've watched my son attempt to write - he tells me that he knows the information in one part of his brain but he can't get it out the other side. I'm not going to push or insist that he do it now when he so obviously can't - it's not about spelling or letter formation or willingness - he just can't. Whether or not he can in the future irrelovant to me - he can't do it right now, so we find other ways for him to express himself. The same goes for socialization. There are days where social acitivities are simply too much -noisy, busy, complicated. Sometimes I just want to tell him to stop being such a poop, but really, he simply can't handle it at that time. There is no point in forcing a child into social situations they can't handle.
I think unschooling is the absolute best way for exceptional children - it's respectful and it focusses on what they CAN do. School focusses a whole lot on what they CAN'T do and spends a lot of time trying to figure out how to force a square peg child into a round hole society.
thecugals
--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...> wrote:
Beth Cugal
>I have an experience with my son (also diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome) which may help your friend and was also a great unschooling moment. There is a social skills group in my area for kids on the autism spectrum (mostly Aspergers) which I had heard so many great things about. So I checked out the program and jumped through many hoops to get him signed up, and lo and behold he hated it. My anxiety about his social skills prompted me to keep him there whether he liked it or not because he really needed these skills. Finally his misery was so great that I was forced to see that he wasn't getting anything out of this group and I pulled him out. One of the objectives for him had been "spontaneous interactions with others". In other words, we all wanted to see him talk to other people without being prompted by me (he interacted well with immediate family). He never met that objective. Then some weeks or months after I pulled him out of the program, we were standing in line at Petco with our dog to get him vaccinated, and ds said to the woman in front of us, while looking her in the eyes in a relaxed and friendly manner, "Your dog is cute. What kind of dog is it?" Inside my head my jaw dropped to the floor. He talked to someone (a stranger even) because he was interested in talking to her and was curious (go figure)! He knew enough about interacting with others by interacting with his family and by watching us with others. He didn't need to be taught.
> it's the social learning - the being "in the world" and the ability to *conform* to societal expectations that she is struggling with - with a kid with an aspergers diagnosis, who struggles with that realm in particular, it's very hard for her to take that leap of faith and trust.
>I'm also familiar with Temple Grandin, and while it may be true (maybe) that rules and expectations helped her, she also said that when she was a young child she was not engaged at all with the world around her, so her mother made her way into Temple's world. This is the beauty--for all kids--of unschooling. We parents can meet our kids where they are and then gently help them expand their world. It can be pointless or even harmful to put kids in situations they're not prepared to "learn from".
> she mentioned temple grandin, the writer who's autistic - and apparently says that the rules and expectations that were immutable in her childhood...
> - the requirements to conform and get outside her own head and world - are what saved her in some respects.Maybe and maybe not. There is another grown man with AS who was featured on 60 Minutes, and who wrote a book called Born on a Blue Day. I believe in the TV interview he said it was a good thing he went to school because it helped him with socialization. But there is nothing in his book that would suggest this is the case. He spent most of his time in school avoiding the other kids. I don't see how that helped him. To me it's the same thing as saying, "It's a good thing I went to school because they taught me to read."
Beth Cugal
Sandra Dodd
-=- It can be pointless or even harmful to put kids in situations
they're not prepared to "learn from". -=-
Pointless and harmful. If people are using school as a babysitter,
that's understandable. If the mom is at home worrying, and the child
is at school stressing, then it's not nearly good.
It's harmful and pointless to put any child in any situation he's not
prepared for or interested in. Hospitals are exceptions, I suppose,
most times.
-=- I believe in the TV interview he said it was a good thing he went
to school because it helped him with socialization. But there is
nothing in his book that would suggest this is the case. He spent most
of his time in school avoiding the other kids. I don't see how that
helped him. To me it's the same thing as saying, "It's a good thing I
went to school because they taught me to read."
-=-
People justify what they learned to live with. When I was a kid and a
teen, I used to brag that my mom wanted me to be independent, so I
went to first grade by myself and second grade too, when I changed
districts. I found a way to see it as a positive, because what it
really was was my mom being afraid to go with me, but not afraid to
send me off. And that was too much for me to analyze and come to
understand. I still don't. I cried like a baby that first day of
first grade. And duh... I had just turned six. Luckily for me,
another mom took me under her wing and helped me out after a while. I
still have traumatic memories of those two days of going out into
strange situations far from home by myself.
This morning early I went to the grocery store. A group of eight or
so older men were at a table at the coffee and donuts corner,
talking. They used to go to a restaurant across the parking lot every
morning, but it's been closed a year or so. It was raining outside.
I overheard one of them say something about it, and about young people
driving their kids to school, that that's the way it is now anyway.
Another guy said "It would've been a cold day in hell if my parents
had ever taken me to school," and he laughed like it was stupid for
any parent to take a kid to school.
The man was in his 70's, at least, and he's still justifying what his
parents did, which he still remembers.
Another guy said his would've taken him if it had been raining like
this, but not otherwise. His voice was softer, like he was thinking
about it.
What we do or don't do for our children now could be remembered and
discussed in 2069 or so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they're not prepared to "learn from". -=-
Pointless and harmful. If people are using school as a babysitter,
that's understandable. If the mom is at home worrying, and the child
is at school stressing, then it's not nearly good.
It's harmful and pointless to put any child in any situation he's not
prepared for or interested in. Hospitals are exceptions, I suppose,
most times.
-=- I believe in the TV interview he said it was a good thing he went
to school because it helped him with socialization. But there is
nothing in his book that would suggest this is the case. He spent most
of his time in school avoiding the other kids. I don't see how that
helped him. To me it's the same thing as saying, "It's a good thing I
went to school because they taught me to read."
-=-
People justify what they learned to live with. When I was a kid and a
teen, I used to brag that my mom wanted me to be independent, so I
went to first grade by myself and second grade too, when I changed
districts. I found a way to see it as a positive, because what it
really was was my mom being afraid to go with me, but not afraid to
send me off. And that was too much for me to analyze and come to
understand. I still don't. I cried like a baby that first day of
first grade. And duh... I had just turned six. Luckily for me,
another mom took me under her wing and helped me out after a while. I
still have traumatic memories of those two days of going out into
strange situations far from home by myself.
This morning early I went to the grocery store. A group of eight or
so older men were at a table at the coffee and donuts corner,
talking. They used to go to a restaurant across the parking lot every
morning, but it's been closed a year or so. It was raining outside.
I overheard one of them say something about it, and about young people
driving their kids to school, that that's the way it is now anyway.
Another guy said "It would've been a cold day in hell if my parents
had ever taken me to school," and he laughed like it was stupid for
any parent to take a kid to school.
The man was in his 70's, at least, and he's still justifying what his
parents did, which he still remembers.
Another guy said his would've taken him if it had been raining like
this, but not otherwise. His voice was softer, like he was thinking
about it.
What we do or don't do for our children now could be remembered and
discussed in 2069 or so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marian_visser
Dav Pilkey gave a talk to a roomful of teachers about his school experience. It's very odd - he's talking about how miserable it was, how he spent most of a year out in the hall (which is where he started cartooning). He talks about how teachers told him his creativity would amount to nothing. Meanwhile all the teachers in the audience are laughing and laughing. Surreal. He ends by saying he's grateful for the experience because it made him who he is --- I think it's finding the good in a bad situation. I don't think he's truly grateful for that hurtful experience, but perhaps understands that bitterness is destructive and so he takes that negative history and turns into something positive. I wonder how the Temple Grandins and Dav Pilkeys would have soared in a supportive environment.
Here's the clip http://pilkey.com/pilkey_speech1.php?video=speech_512.wmv&w=500&h=375
Here's the clip http://pilkey.com/pilkey_speech1.php?video=speech_512.wmv&w=500&h=375
Nancy Machaj
*-*I wonder how the Temple Grandins and Dav Pilkeys would have soared
in a supportive environment.*-*
Ive been thinking about this idea alot lately.
I recently read Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Outliers" which is about
those individuals who are extraordinarily successful, and the
environment and circumstances that propel them. I found the book
fascinating. One thing he notices is that it takes about 10,000 hours
of practice before these individuals see those extraordinary results
(he has several examples and stories..the beatles, bill gates, a
lawyer, musicians) I thought instantly that as unschoolers, my
children would have the ability to spend as many hours as they wanted
on their passions! :)
But the book also tells the story of a very smart guy who didnt have
the kind of supportive environment or access to other help, and it
shows how many times he fell thru the cracks, and how things could
have been different for him. How people treated him differently
because of factors he could not control.
There are a couple of tv shows that I like to watch-one is called
Inside The Actor's Studio, (on the cable channel bravo) and Behind
the Music on VH-1 (cable music channel). What strikes me about
watching these very talented artists is that most of them have
divorced parents, and this is always a big, painful part of their
lives. These actors and musicians have all had fame, glory,
attention, money, win awards, are respected ,etc, yet most of them
have addictions, broken marriages of their own, struggle with
depression and self destructive behaviors. there are exceptions, some
of them arent currently miserable, of course, but it makes me so sad
that most of these truly talented people who have so much to share
and give and show us, are in so much pain, and its all personal-its
from being shamed, neglected, abused, from broken families.
Its like people dont understand that being loved and connected to
other people is a measure of "success".
They say, 'this person overcame divorce and addiction and sold ten
million albums. Amazing!'
The actress Halle Berry lived in her car and was depressed and
suicidal, but went on to win an Oscar. (acting award)
She also (while being a "successful actress") was in an abusive
relationship, and went thru at least one divorce.
She may be a successful actress, but she was having a hard time being
a successful person!
It seems obvious to me that these people who have overcome lots of
damage to be so successful, would have been even more successful (and
happy) with a supportive and happy, peaceful, loving environment.
Without the detrimental effects of divorce, school, etc.
It also seems obvious to me that *everyone* would benefit from a
supportive, happy, peaceful, loving environment.
And that no matter how materially successful my children are or are
not, that they will hopefully have *full, rich* personal lives will
be due to mindful parenting and radical unschooling.
Nancy
in chicago, kids aged 5.5 and 2
*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in a supportive environment.*-*
Ive been thinking about this idea alot lately.
I recently read Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Outliers" which is about
those individuals who are extraordinarily successful, and the
environment and circumstances that propel them. I found the book
fascinating. One thing he notices is that it takes about 10,000 hours
of practice before these individuals see those extraordinary results
(he has several examples and stories..the beatles, bill gates, a
lawyer, musicians) I thought instantly that as unschoolers, my
children would have the ability to spend as many hours as they wanted
on their passions! :)
But the book also tells the story of a very smart guy who didnt have
the kind of supportive environment or access to other help, and it
shows how many times he fell thru the cracks, and how things could
have been different for him. How people treated him differently
because of factors he could not control.
There are a couple of tv shows that I like to watch-one is called
Inside The Actor's Studio, (on the cable channel bravo) and Behind
the Music on VH-1 (cable music channel). What strikes me about
watching these very talented artists is that most of them have
divorced parents, and this is always a big, painful part of their
lives. These actors and musicians have all had fame, glory,
attention, money, win awards, are respected ,etc, yet most of them
have addictions, broken marriages of their own, struggle with
depression and self destructive behaviors. there are exceptions, some
of them arent currently miserable, of course, but it makes me so sad
that most of these truly talented people who have so much to share
and give and show us, are in so much pain, and its all personal-its
from being shamed, neglected, abused, from broken families.
Its like people dont understand that being loved and connected to
other people is a measure of "success".
They say, 'this person overcame divorce and addiction and sold ten
million albums. Amazing!'
The actress Halle Berry lived in her car and was depressed and
suicidal, but went on to win an Oscar. (acting award)
She also (while being a "successful actress") was in an abusive
relationship, and went thru at least one divorce.
She may be a successful actress, but she was having a hard time being
a successful person!
It seems obvious to me that these people who have overcome lots of
damage to be so successful, would have been even more successful (and
happy) with a supportive and happy, peaceful, loving environment.
Without the detrimental effects of divorce, school, etc.
It also seems obvious to me that *everyone* would benefit from a
supportive, happy, peaceful, loving environment.
And that no matter how materially successful my children are or are
not, that they will hopefully have *full, rich* personal lives will
be due to mindful parenting and radical unschooling.
Nancy
in chicago, kids aged 5.5 and 2
*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***What we do or don't do for our children now could be remembered and
discussed in 2069 or so.***
Dylan is seventeen and I will go into the store if we're on our way somewhere and he wants something. I'll run his books into the library for him if it's busy. He's uncomfortable in busy or crowded places and I know what that feels like. He will go into a busy place if there's something he wants to look at so he hasn't been crippled by my running after bottles of water or bags of chips. <g> I'm sure there will be people who believe that if Dylan had gone to school he'd be more comfortable in crowds but I know that's not true. I have always been uncomfortable in crowded places and I did go to school.
School did not make me more comfortable around crowds of people. It gave me a lot of stress and unhappiness.
***I cried like a baby that first day of first grade.***
That's really sad. That poor Little Sandra.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
discussed in 2069 or so.***
Dylan is seventeen and I will go into the store if we're on our way somewhere and he wants something. I'll run his books into the library for him if it's busy. He's uncomfortable in busy or crowded places and I know what that feels like. He will go into a busy place if there's something he wants to look at so he hasn't been crippled by my running after bottles of water or bags of chips. <g> I'm sure there will be people who believe that if Dylan had gone to school he'd be more comfortable in crowds but I know that's not true. I have always been uncomfortable in crowded places and I did go to school.
School did not make me more comfortable around crowds of people. It gave me a lot of stress and unhappiness.
***I cried like a baby that first day of first grade.***
That's really sad. That poor Little Sandra.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I believe in the TV interview he said it was a good thing he went to school because it helped him with socialization. But there is nothing in his book that would suggest this is the case. He spent most of his time in school avoiding the other kids. I don't see how that helped him. To me it's the same thing as saying, "It's a good thing I went to school because they taught me to read."***
There are things that people never question. Most people in the modern world believe school is necessary and don't question it's necessity, ever, and when they question school, it's usually about how to manipulate the current necessary school.
I turned the radio on while I was in my car waiting for Chamille and there was a story about to start. The radio host made the announcement that they would be talking about revolutionary ideas in education. I thought, "oh cool!", then he went on to say that we need revolutionary ideas for education because we all know how necessary and important school is. Yuck, I turned it off. If your revolutionary ideas are just more of the same, how are they revolutionary at all? All of his guests were people entrenched in the public school system.
I seriously doubt most of them can see the forest through the trees. They keep hacking away at the trees and planting new ones and rearranging things, and one day what was once a beautiful forest is now something strange and terrifying.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are things that people never question. Most people in the modern world believe school is necessary and don't question it's necessity, ever, and when they question school, it's usually about how to manipulate the current necessary school.
I turned the radio on while I was in my car waiting for Chamille and there was a story about to start. The radio host made the announcement that they would be talking about revolutionary ideas in education. I thought, "oh cool!", then he went on to say that we need revolutionary ideas for education because we all know how necessary and important school is. Yuck, I turned it off. If your revolutionary ideas are just more of the same, how are they revolutionary at all? All of his guests were people entrenched in the public school system.
I seriously doubt most of them can see the forest through the trees. They keep hacking away at the trees and planting new ones and rearranging things, and one day what was once a beautiful forest is now something strange and terrifying.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I think it's finding the good in a bad situation. I don't think he's truly grateful for that hurtful experience, but perhaps understands that bitterness is destructive and so he takes that negative history and turns into something positive. I wonder how the Temple Grandins and Dav Pilkeys would have soared in a supportive environment.***
It's not just people who are unusual who survive and do amazing things. It's all kids. Almost every public school kid I've ever met has been damaged by the inherently unsupportive system in which they grew up in. If you add terribly dysfunctional parents to the mix, it's a wonder many kids survive at all.
I'm in a phase in life where I feel grateful for the parents I had. They were extremely religious and pretty traditional in most ways, but they were always kind and generous and helpful. There were times when things felt unfair because they were unfair, but those times were pretty minimal when I look back at the overall childhood I had.
There are so many parents out there who's only tool in their toolbox, is school and punishment, that's it, that's all they know. Some of those kids will survive in spite of it and many of them won't. Honestly, I think a kid's chance of survival has way more to do with the kind of parents they have, than whether or not they go to school. I KNOW how schools do damage, but the worst damage that I've encountered in young people are their parent's inability to be good parents.
The ability to to understand that bitterness is destructive and to be able to turn negativity into something positive, is an amazing testament to human nature. I see Chamille's boyfriend do this. He does have his moments where he gets down and life is overwhelming and difficult. When his life is like that, it's always directly because of his parents. He comes to me with these thoughts and we turn them inside out and around. His initial reaction is almost always correct, but sometimes when someone tells you that you are a failure enough times, you start to question whether that may be true. It can be crazy making!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's not just people who are unusual who survive and do amazing things. It's all kids. Almost every public school kid I've ever met has been damaged by the inherently unsupportive system in which they grew up in. If you add terribly dysfunctional parents to the mix, it's a wonder many kids survive at all.
I'm in a phase in life where I feel grateful for the parents I had. They were extremely religious and pretty traditional in most ways, but they were always kind and generous and helpful. There were times when things felt unfair because they were unfair, but those times were pretty minimal when I look back at the overall childhood I had.
There are so many parents out there who's only tool in their toolbox, is school and punishment, that's it, that's all they know. Some of those kids will survive in spite of it and many of them won't. Honestly, I think a kid's chance of survival has way more to do with the kind of parents they have, than whether or not they go to school. I KNOW how schools do damage, but the worst damage that I've encountered in young people are their parent's inability to be good parents.
The ability to to understand that bitterness is destructive and to be able to turn negativity into something positive, is an amazing testament to human nature. I see Chamille's boyfriend do this. He does have his moments where he gets down and life is overwhelming and difficult. When his life is like that, it's always directly because of his parents. He comes to me with these thoughts and we turn them inside out and around. His initial reaction is almost always correct, but sometimes when someone tells you that you are a failure enough times, you start to question whether that may be true. It can be crazy making!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Dylan is seventeen and I will go into the store if we're on our way somewhere and he wants something. I'll run his books into the library for him if it's busy. He's uncomfortable in busy or crowded places and I know what that feels like.***
See, THIS is what I LOVE about unschooling parents... This ability to put aside their own discomforts to help their kids be better and safer and happier, and somehow it can be very healing for the parents too!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
See, THIS is what I LOVE about unschooling parents... This ability to put aside their own discomforts to help their kids be better and safer and happier, and somehow it can be very healing for the parents too!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I overheard one of them say something about it, and about young people
driving their kids to school, that that's the way it is now anyway.
Another guy said "It would've been a cold day in hell if my parents
had ever taken me to school," and he laughed like it was stupid for
any parent to take a kid to school.
The man was in his 70's, at least, and he's still justifying what his
parents did, which he still remembers.***
And he probably used the same justification to do the same thing to his own kids. "If I had to you have to". I still don't understand that rational since most people seem to want to do better for their kids than how they had it themselves. I can only assume they simply don't know how or it's too painful.
***Another guy said his would've taken him if it had been raining like
this, but not otherwise. His voice was softer, like he was thinking
about it.***
And this man probably did the same kind gestures for his own kids.
***What we do or don't do for our children now could be remembered and
discussed in 2069 or so.***
I know this will be so! Chamille was having a hard time logically understanding her boyfriend's punishment for school performance. For one, none of the punishments fit the "crime", which she didn't even consider to be a crime in the first place. It was a proud mother moment to realize that my 15 yr old has analytical thinking skills. I knew that she did, of course, but the way she hashed it out outloud was fascinating.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
driving their kids to school, that that's the way it is now anyway.
Another guy said "It would've been a cold day in hell if my parents
had ever taken me to school," and he laughed like it was stupid for
any parent to take a kid to school.
The man was in his 70's, at least, and he's still justifying what his
parents did, which he still remembers.***
And he probably used the same justification to do the same thing to his own kids. "If I had to you have to". I still don't understand that rational since most people seem to want to do better for their kids than how they had it themselves. I can only assume they simply don't know how or it's too painful.
***Another guy said his would've taken him if it had been raining like
this, but not otherwise. His voice was softer, like he was thinking
about it.***
And this man probably did the same kind gestures for his own kids.
***What we do or don't do for our children now could be remembered and
discussed in 2069 or so.***
I know this will be so! Chamille was having a hard time logically understanding her boyfriend's punishment for school performance. For one, none of the punishments fit the "crime", which she didn't even consider to be a crime in the first place. It was a proud mother moment to realize that my 15 yr old has analytical thinking skills. I knew that she did, of course, but the way she hashed it out outloud was fascinating.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deborahkmlewis
***to put aside their own discomforts to help their kids be better and safer and happier, and somehow it can be very healing for the parents too! ***
In thirty years it will be interesting to see if he's more or less comfortable in big crowds. Maybe having the choice not to go to school and not to go into busy stores as a kid will leave him easier about it later.
And maybe not. <g>
Deb Lewis
In thirty years it will be interesting to see if he's more or less comfortable in big crowds. Maybe having the choice not to go to school and not to go into busy stores as a kid will leave him easier about it later.
And maybe not. <g>
Deb Lewis
Laura Flynn Endres
***I cried like a baby that first day of first grade.***
That's really sad. That poor Little Sandra.
*********************
I remember crying in first grade, too, because there was an older kid who would bully some of us before school and during lunch recess. He'd take our lunch boxes, the metal kind, and bash them against the school wall. I was terrified. I remember one day in particular, the day I realized I was on my own to deal with this. Our teacher lined us up in the classroom and we couldn't walk single-file down to lunch until everyone was still and quiet. I was sniffling in line, trying really hard not to cry, afraid to go to recess after lunch. Afraid, even, to go to lunch because we couldn't choose where to sit, we had to sit where the lunchroom aides told us to sit and that was risky. The teacher leaned over at the front of the line, peered at me with eyebrows raised, and said, "We can't leave until you stop crying, Laura." I was completely horrified.
I don't exactly remember much about that school after that. We moved to a small town the following summer and I was SO excited because I had cousins there and I felt like I'd have people on my side. And I did.
I taught 4th and 5th grades full-time when Brady, now 17, was young. He developed some serious anxiety about being left alone; he would cry out if I'd even use the bathroom in our house without telling him I was going in there. When I quit teaching I was telling the special ed teacher that homeschooling would be good for Brady, so he'd feel more secure. She said, "How are you going to get him used to being alone? You could make him be alone in his room for one minute, then increase it to two minutes, then three, until he's over it. What will you do?"
I told her that actually I planned to see that he was never, ever, left alone, that he always feel secure, until he felt ready to do things without me close by. It took a long time. He eventually grew more confident; slowly, gradually, as he was ready.
Because of his earlier fears, he never wanted to try camps or any such things, although he did do overnights at houses of friends who were respectful of his needs. I'd still tell him about opportunities that arose. Eventually I stopped, though. Just recently he said, "Why don't you ever ask me about camp anymore? I might want to go sometime."
Laura
*~*~*~*~*
"Keep company with those who make you better." ~ English saying
*~*~*~*~*
www.piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com
*~*~*~*~*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's really sad. That poor Little Sandra.
*********************
I remember crying in first grade, too, because there was an older kid who would bully some of us before school and during lunch recess. He'd take our lunch boxes, the metal kind, and bash them against the school wall. I was terrified. I remember one day in particular, the day I realized I was on my own to deal with this. Our teacher lined us up in the classroom and we couldn't walk single-file down to lunch until everyone was still and quiet. I was sniffling in line, trying really hard not to cry, afraid to go to recess after lunch. Afraid, even, to go to lunch because we couldn't choose where to sit, we had to sit where the lunchroom aides told us to sit and that was risky. The teacher leaned over at the front of the line, peered at me with eyebrows raised, and said, "We can't leave until you stop crying, Laura." I was completely horrified.
I don't exactly remember much about that school after that. We moved to a small town the following summer and I was SO excited because I had cousins there and I felt like I'd have people on my side. And I did.
I taught 4th and 5th grades full-time when Brady, now 17, was young. He developed some serious anxiety about being left alone; he would cry out if I'd even use the bathroom in our house without telling him I was going in there. When I quit teaching I was telling the special ed teacher that homeschooling would be good for Brady, so he'd feel more secure. She said, "How are you going to get him used to being alone? You could make him be alone in his room for one minute, then increase it to two minutes, then three, until he's over it. What will you do?"
I told her that actually I planned to see that he was never, ever, left alone, that he always feel secure, until he felt ready to do things without me close by. It took a long time. He eventually grew more confident; slowly, gradually, as he was ready.
Because of his earlier fears, he never wanted to try camps or any such things, although he did do overnights at houses of friends who were respectful of his needs. I'd still tell him about opportunities that arose. Eventually I stopped, though. Just recently he said, "Why don't you ever ask me about camp anymore? I might want to go sometime."
Laura
*~*~*~*~*
"Keep company with those who make you better." ~ English saying
*~*~*~*~*
www.piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com
*~*~*~*~*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marian_visser
My ds also has a hard time in busy places - that's why school was so horrible for him. My hope is that he learns to accept and even value his need for quiet and will make life choices - where he lives, how he learns, what work he'll do - based on a strong knowledg of himself.
--- In [email protected], "deborahkmlewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
>
>
> ***to put aside their own discomforts to help their kids be better and safer and happier, and somehow it can be very healing for the parents too! ***
>
>
>
> In thirty years it will be interesting to see if he's more or less comfortable in big crowds. Maybe having the choice not to go to school and not to go into busy stores as a kid will leave him easier about it later.
>
> And maybe not. <g>
>
>
> Deb Lewis
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 10/22/2009 9:43 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
jump ropes after recess. It was the 2nd or 3rd day of school. I got them
put away and turned around and discovered 3 classroom doors leading into
the building from the playground and I had no idea which one was mine
(no numbers on the doors).
So I went home.
My mom called the school and told them I was at home.
I cried all the way home and my mom didn't make me go back that day.
-pam
> ***I cried like a baby that first day of first grade.***In kindergarten, I was picked by the teacher to put away the balls and
>
> That's really sad. That poor Little Sandra.
>
jump ropes after recess. It was the 2nd or 3rd day of school. I got them
put away and turned around and discovered 3 classroom doors leading into
the building from the playground and I had no idea which one was mine
(no numbers on the doors).
So I went home.
My mom called the school and told them I was at home.
I cried all the way home and my mom didn't make me go back that day.
-pam