learning to read at 12
conj123
I would like to start a thread about late reading and suggestions for strategies. My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when reading with him and listening to him read I am finding that he has a lot of difficulty breaking up words into their parts (structural analysis) and tries to break most words up phonetically - sounding out each letter - so 'poster' for example becomes 'p', 'o', 's', t', e' r - which is painstakingly slow and extrememly inefficient. Of course the comprehension gets totally lost when he uses this approach - i am finding that he is resistant to me sounding it out for him and telling him the word or offering any strategies at all that may be more efficient - then the frustration sets in - on him and on me - agh! does anyone have any suggestions for us?
Sandra Dodd
-=- My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when
reading with him and listening to him read...-=-
Was he in school a while?
Has he learned what he's doing in his own way, or did you teach him
phonics?
I have lots of ideas, but wanted some more details on this particular
instance.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reading with him and listening to him read...-=-
Was he in school a while?
Has he learned what he's doing in his own way, or did you teach him
phonics?
I have lots of ideas, but wanted some more details on this particular
instance.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Erika Grova-Silva
I don't know if these videos will be too elementary for your son - but I swear by them: Leap Frog videos - 1st one is "Letter Factory" and the second one is: "Word Factory" - can be purchased at Target or online.
It teaches kids the sound of each letter in 1st video and then how to put the sounds together in the second one - and they are very entertaining and fun.
Erika Grova-Silva
It teaches kids the sound of each letter in 1st video and then how to put the sounds together in the second one - and they are very entertaining and fun.
Erika Grova-Silva
--- On Mon, 10/12/09, conj123 <connie.k.johnson@...> wrote:
From: conj123 <connie.k.johnson@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] learning to read at 12
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:57 AM
I would like to start a thread about late reading and suggestions for strategies. My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when reading with him and listening to him read I am finding that he has a lot of difficulty breaking up words into their parts (structural analysis) and tries to break most words up phonetically - sounding out each letter - so 'poster' for example becomes 'p', 'o', 's', t', e' r - which is painstakingly slow and extrememly inefficient. Of course the comprehension gets totally lost when he uses this approach - i am finding that he is resistant to me sounding it out for him and telling him the word or offering any strategies at all that may be more efficient - then the frustration sets in - on him and on me - agh! does anyone have any suggestions for us?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Connie Johnson
he has been homeschooled since the beginning of his life and because we follow
an unschooling approach we have just let him be - i have read to him and use
my finger to follow along under the words - i tried to do phonics with him
but it seemed too frustrating for him and then i would just leave it for a
while - it seems that he started learning by memorizing the words that he
would see but it took him a long time to memorize the ones he knows now and he
tells me that when he sees a word like 'saw' for instance i will tell him what
it is and then when he sees it again he forgets - he gets really frustrated
and says ' why can't i remember the words?! what's wrong with me! now that
he is learning the sounds of the letters (this year) he is trying to sound out
words phonetically but as i said before he will sound them out letter by
letter (poster is p o s t e r) so it totally distorts the whole word.
i have been reading about dyslexia - and it sounds exactly like that - so of
course now i am feeling guilty about not getting him help earlier! and am
questioning the whole unschooling thing! but basically i just need to know at
this point how i should continue with him - i don't want to deny a disability
by saying - he'll learn in his own sweet time' and i don't want to focus on it
either?!
Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@SandraDodd
.com> To
Sent by: [email protected]
AlwaysLearning@yah cc
oogroups.com
Subject
Re: [AlwaysLearning] learning to read
10/12/2009 09:22 at 12
AM
Please respond to
AlwaysLearning@yah
oogroups.com
-=- My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when
reading with him and listening to him read...-=-
Was he in school a while?
Has he learned what he's doing in his own way, or did you teach him
phonics?
I have lots of ideas, but wanted some more details on this particular
instance.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
an unschooling approach we have just let him be - i have read to him and use
my finger to follow along under the words - i tried to do phonics with him
but it seemed too frustrating for him and then i would just leave it for a
while - it seems that he started learning by memorizing the words that he
would see but it took him a long time to memorize the ones he knows now and he
tells me that when he sees a word like 'saw' for instance i will tell him what
it is and then when he sees it again he forgets - he gets really frustrated
and says ' why can't i remember the words?! what's wrong with me! now that
he is learning the sounds of the letters (this year) he is trying to sound out
words phonetically but as i said before he will sound them out letter by
letter (poster is p o s t e r) so it totally distorts the whole word.
i have been reading about dyslexia - and it sounds exactly like that - so of
course now i am feeling guilty about not getting him help earlier! and am
questioning the whole unschooling thing! but basically i just need to know at
this point how i should continue with him - i don't want to deny a disability
by saying - he'll learn in his own sweet time' and i don't want to focus on it
either?!
Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@SandraDodd
.com> To
Sent by: [email protected]
AlwaysLearning@yah cc
oogroups.com
Subject
Re: [AlwaysLearning] learning to read
10/12/2009 09:22 at 12
AM
Please respond to
AlwaysLearning@yah
oogroups.com
-=- My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when
reading with him and listening to him read...-=-
Was he in school a while?
Has he learned what he's doing in his own way, or did you teach him
phonics?
I have lots of ideas, but wanted some more details on this particular
instance.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
>>>I would like to start a thread about late reading and suggestions for strategies. My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when reading with him and listening to him read I am finding that he has a lot of difficulty breaking up words into their parts (structural analysis) and tries to break most words up phonetically - sounding out each letter - so 'poster' for example becomes 'p', 'o', 's', t', e' r - which is painstakingly slow and extrememly inefficient.>>>I'm curious as to why he is using this approach to reading. Why is he sounding words out, out loud?>>>Of course the comprehension gets totally lost when he uses this approach>>>What is he trying to comprehend? If he's wanting to read a book for pleasure, put on a book on cd or mp3 and listen together and pause to talk about the story when he feels like it. If he's trying to read manual or instructions, read them to him, if he's having a hard time doing it himself.The only timeI hear about reading "for comprehension" is in school and test taking to make sure that the child has actually read the homework assignment.>>> - i am finding that he is resistant to me sounding it out for him and telling him the word or offering any strategies at all that may be more efficient - then the frustration sets in - on him and on me - agh! does anyone have any suggestions for us?>>>STOP! Really, that's my biggest suggestion! Stop doing that to him. It clearly causes frustration. Frustration isn't going to help him read at all, it will only cement in himself why he can't do something that others seem to be able to do. Maybe instead tell him stories of other late readers and how they figured it out and let him know that he'll get it and to be patient with himself. Then, YOU, the mom, need to be patient too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-- i have read to him and use
my finger to follow along under the words - i tried to do phonics with
him
but it seemed too frustrating for him and then i would just leave it
for a
while --=-
But you would pick it up for a while. Even using your finger under
the words is a way to "teach reading." You don't do that when you
read to adults who can read, I bet.
-=-he gets really frustrated
and says ' why can't i remember the words?! what's wrong with me! -=-
Because he can't read yet, that's all! There's nothing wrong with
him, but ever step toward teaching can be a step away from learning.
-=he is trying to sound out
words phonetically but as i said before he will sound them out letter by
letter (poster is p o s t e r) so it totally distorts the whole word.-=-
Right. Which isn't really reading. I could read any language in
Europe if that were reading. I would be trying to sound them out, but
there would be no comprehension (and not much pronunciation that
sounded like words either).
-=-i have been reading about dyslexia - and it sounds exactly like
that - so of
course now i am feeling guilty about not getting him help earlier! -=-
The "help" for dyslexia is help for kids to be fastened to the
conveyor belt at school. It has nothing to do with natural learning.
-=- basically i just need to know at
this point how i should continue with him --=-
Find interesting things with lots of pictures about things he's
interested in and leave them around. Don't put your finger under
words if you read to him. Don't ask him to read aloud to you.
-=-i don't want to deny a disability
by saying - he'll learn in his own sweet time-=-
"...in his own sweet time" is a phrase that's rarely used without an
insult being intended. At least a slight. "You took your sweet time"
means "We've been waiting for you."
Holly was eleven before she read. She had video games with words,
and we would just read them to her. She had charts that went with
some of her games, simplified, made by me, sometimes with a word and a
picture. My kids all listened to a recording Discovery Toys sells
called Sounds like Fun that was usually in our car, and sometimes used
for a falling asleep tape. It might be irritating for a 12 year old
boy, but it had a song with letter sounds. There are TV shows--I
don't know which are current this year--such as Between the Lions and
The Electric Company about reading. There are some Sesame Street
sketches about reading. Many are on YouTube.
Whether he "is dyslexic" or not (one of my kids would definitely have
been and has all the accompanying traits: male, left-handed, mathish)
he can only learn to read in his own way. Each person reads in his
own way. Some people's "own way" is marred or ruined by their trying
to use other people's ways and feeling dumb and confused and stupid.
Kids in school often have years of bad report cards to document that
they're correct in that negative assessment.
The latest reader I've ever known is named Liam. There's an account
of his reading here:
http://sandradodd.com/r/carol
He grew up and joined the marines. I learned yesterday from his mom,
who was one of my first La Leche League leaders, that he's been sent
to Afghanistan.
There are many other accounts of kids learning to read, many of them
11, 12, 13. Liam was 16.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my finger to follow along under the words - i tried to do phonics with
him
but it seemed too frustrating for him and then i would just leave it
for a
while --=-
But you would pick it up for a while. Even using your finger under
the words is a way to "teach reading." You don't do that when you
read to adults who can read, I bet.
-=-he gets really frustrated
and says ' why can't i remember the words?! what's wrong with me! -=-
Because he can't read yet, that's all! There's nothing wrong with
him, but ever step toward teaching can be a step away from learning.
-=he is trying to sound out
words phonetically but as i said before he will sound them out letter by
letter (poster is p o s t e r) so it totally distorts the whole word.-=-
Right. Which isn't really reading. I could read any language in
Europe if that were reading. I would be trying to sound them out, but
there would be no comprehension (and not much pronunciation that
sounded like words either).
-=-i have been reading about dyslexia - and it sounds exactly like
that - so of
course now i am feeling guilty about not getting him help earlier! -=-
The "help" for dyslexia is help for kids to be fastened to the
conveyor belt at school. It has nothing to do with natural learning.
-=- basically i just need to know at
this point how i should continue with him --=-
Find interesting things with lots of pictures about things he's
interested in and leave them around. Don't put your finger under
words if you read to him. Don't ask him to read aloud to you.
-=-i don't want to deny a disability
by saying - he'll learn in his own sweet time-=-
"...in his own sweet time" is a phrase that's rarely used without an
insult being intended. At least a slight. "You took your sweet time"
means "We've been waiting for you."
Holly was eleven before she read. She had video games with words,
and we would just read them to her. She had charts that went with
some of her games, simplified, made by me, sometimes with a word and a
picture. My kids all listened to a recording Discovery Toys sells
called Sounds like Fun that was usually in our car, and sometimes used
for a falling asleep tape. It might be irritating for a 12 year old
boy, but it had a song with letter sounds. There are TV shows--I
don't know which are current this year--such as Between the Lions and
The Electric Company about reading. There are some Sesame Street
sketches about reading. Many are on YouTube.
Whether he "is dyslexic" or not (one of my kids would definitely have
been and has all the accompanying traits: male, left-handed, mathish)
he can only learn to read in his own way. Each person reads in his
own way. Some people's "own way" is marred or ruined by their trying
to use other people's ways and feeling dumb and confused and stupid.
Kids in school often have years of bad report cards to document that
they're correct in that negative assessment.
The latest reader I've ever known is named Liam. There's an account
of his reading here:
http://sandradodd.com/r/carol
He grew up and joined the marines. I learned yesterday from his mom,
who was one of my first La Leche League leaders, that he's been sent
to Afghanistan.
There are many other accounts of kids learning to read, many of them
11, 12, 13. Liam was 16.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
>>>It teaches kids the sound of each letter in 1st video and then how to put the sounds together in the second one - and they are very entertaining and fun. >>>I think that is the wrong direction to go with an older child that is frustrated already with someone else trying to teach them to sound things out. Entertaining and fun are great! Both of my kids have done various reading things online and via games and such and have enjoyed it. There wasn't a goal to get them to read though. That can be extremely problematic.
Schools use tricks like that to get kids to do all kinds of things. It doesn't do much to help kids learn better, it only makes the medicine go down easier with that little bit of sugar.
The problem is that, kids all learn differently. So, something of that nature may be very frustrating to a child that doesn't process the written word in that manner. My oldest daughter didn't learn how to read that way at all! She collected words and eventually she had enough words collected to read most anything. That happened when she was about 11/12.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Jenny's post with more space to read ( I hope). I don't know what
happened to it, but if you use the pointy carat marks (greater than/
less than) computers think you're talking to them. Please, for
quoting through a yahoogroup it seems to work better if you quote the
other person's words with **these** or -=-this-=- or something. Thanks.
--------Jenny's responses, from here down------
-=-I would like to start a thread about late reading and suggestions
for strategies. My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read -
when reading with him and listening to him read I am finding that he
has a lot of difficulty breaking up words into their parts (structural
analysis) and tries to break most words up phonetically - sounding out
each letter - so 'poster' for example becomes 'p', 'o', 's', t', e' r
- which is painstakingly slow and extrememly inefficient.-=-
I'm curious as to why he is using this approach to reading. Why is he
sounding words out, out loud?
-=-Of course the comprehension gets totally lost when he uses this
approach-=-
What is he trying to comprehend? If he's wanting to read a book for
pleasure, put on a book on cd or mp3 and listen together and pause to
talk about the story when he feels like it. If he's trying to read
manual or instructions, read them to him, if he's having a hard time
doing it himself. The only time
I hear about reading "for comprehension" is in school and test taking
to make sure that the child has actually read the homework assignment.
-=- - i am finding that he is resistant to me sounding it out for him
and telling him the word or offering any strategies at all that may be
more efficient - then the frustration sets in - on him and on me -
agh! does anyone have any suggestions for us?-=-
STOP! Really, that's my biggest suggestion! Stop doing that to him.
It clearly causes frustration. Frustration isn't going to help him
read at all, it will only cement in himself why he can't do something
that others seem to be able to do. Maybe instead tell him stories of
other late readers and how they figured it out and let him know that
he'll get it and to be patient with himself. Then, YOU, the mom, need
to be patient too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
happened to it, but if you use the pointy carat marks (greater than/
less than) computers think you're talking to them. Please, for
quoting through a yahoogroup it seems to work better if you quote the
other person's words with **these** or -=-this-=- or something. Thanks.
--------Jenny's responses, from here down------
-=-I would like to start a thread about late reading and suggestions
for strategies. My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read -
when reading with him and listening to him read I am finding that he
has a lot of difficulty breaking up words into their parts (structural
analysis) and tries to break most words up phonetically - sounding out
each letter - so 'poster' for example becomes 'p', 'o', 's', t', e' r
- which is painstakingly slow and extrememly inefficient.-=-
I'm curious as to why he is using this approach to reading. Why is he
sounding words out, out loud?
-=-Of course the comprehension gets totally lost when he uses this
approach-=-
What is he trying to comprehend? If he's wanting to read a book for
pleasure, put on a book on cd or mp3 and listen together and pause to
talk about the story when he feels like it. If he's trying to read
manual or instructions, read them to him, if he's having a hard time
doing it himself. The only time
I hear about reading "for comprehension" is in school and test taking
to make sure that the child has actually read the homework assignment.
-=- - i am finding that he is resistant to me sounding it out for him
and telling him the word or offering any strategies at all that may be
more efficient - then the frustration sets in - on him and on me -
agh! does anyone have any suggestions for us?-=-
STOP! Really, that's my biggest suggestion! Stop doing that to him.
It clearly causes frustration. Frustration isn't going to help him
read at all, it will only cement in himself why he can't do something
that others seem to be able to do. Maybe instead tell him stories of
other late readers and how they figured it out and let him know that
he'll get it and to be patient with himself. Then, YOU, the mom, need
to be patient too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
>>> i have read to him and use my finger to follow along under the words - i tried to do phonics with him>>>would see but it took him a long time to memorize the ones he knows now>>>>>> he gets really frustrated and says ' why can't i remember the words?! what's wrong with me!>>> now that he is learning the sounds of the letters (this year) he is trying to sound out
>>> it seems that he started learning by memorizing the words that he
words phonetically>>>
All this says to me, that you are pushing reading too much. Stop and enjoy life. Do things he enjoys doing and that he is good at. Stop trying to get him to read. Stop letting him try to get himself to read. Do things and have fun and reading will happen.
>>>i have been reading about dyslexia - and it sounds exactly like that - so ofcourse now i am feeling guilty about not getting him help earlier! >>>
What kind of help exactly do you think would have helped? Honestly! Dyslexia experts are still trying to get kids to read, it's their goal. They do a lot of damage to kids that would otherwise figure things out on their own, in their own way.
My oldest probably would've been defined as being dyslexic, but I never pushed her and she found ways to read happily. She found ways to make the sense of the mixed up symbols on paper and screen.
>>>and am questioning the whole unschooling thing! but basically i just need to know at this point how i should continue with him - i don't want to deny a disabilityby saying - he'll learn in his own sweet time' and i don't want to focus on iteither?!>>>
You should be questioning the whole unschooling thing! Relax and enjoy your son. Stop focusing on reading so much, stop spinning in the mud of questioning his reading ability or possible disability. It's debilitating and it will destroy peaceful unschooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Poor Jenny and her computer day. <g>
Because she's writing really valuable things, it's worth putting it up
again more quotably.
=========================================
-=- i have read to him and use my finger to follow along under the
words - i tried to do phonics with him it seems that he started
learning by memorizing the words that he
would see but it took him a long time to memorize the ones he knows
now he gets really frustrated and says ' why can't i remember the
words?! what's wrong with me! now that he is learning the sounds of
the letters (this year) he is trying to sound outwords phonetically-=-
All this says to me, that you are pushing reading too much. Stop and
enjoy life. Do things he enjoys doing and that he is good at. Stop
trying to get him to read. Stop letting him try to get himself to
read. Do things and have fun and reading will happen.
-=-i have been reading about dyslexia - and it sounds exactly like
that - so of
course now i am feeling guilty about not getting him help earlier! -=-
What kind of help exactly do you think would have helped? Honestly!
Dyslexia experts are still trying to get kids to read, it's their
goal. They do a lot of damage to kids that would otherwise figure
things out on their own, in their own way.
My oldest probably would've been defined as being dyslexic, but I
never pushed her and she found ways to read happily. She found ways
to make the sense of the mixed up symbols on paper and screen.
-=-and am questioning the whole unschooling thing! but basically i
just need to know at this point how i should continue with him - i
don't want to deny a disabilityby saying - he'll learn in his own
sweet time' and i don't want to focus on it either?!-=-
You should be questioning the whole unschooling thing! Relax and
enjoy your son. Stop focusing on reading so much, stop spinning in
the mud of questioning his reading ability or possible disability.
It's debilitating and it will destroy peaceful unschooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Because she's writing really valuable things, it's worth putting it up
again more quotably.
=========================================
-=- i have read to him and use my finger to follow along under the
words - i tried to do phonics with him it seems that he started
learning by memorizing the words that he
would see but it took him a long time to memorize the ones he knows
now he gets really frustrated and says ' why can't i remember the
words?! what's wrong with me! now that he is learning the sounds of
the letters (this year) he is trying to sound outwords phonetically-=-
All this says to me, that you are pushing reading too much. Stop and
enjoy life. Do things he enjoys doing and that he is good at. Stop
trying to get him to read. Stop letting him try to get himself to
read. Do things and have fun and reading will happen.
-=-i have been reading about dyslexia - and it sounds exactly like
that - so of
course now i am feeling guilty about not getting him help earlier! -=-
What kind of help exactly do you think would have helped? Honestly!
Dyslexia experts are still trying to get kids to read, it's their
goal. They do a lot of damage to kids that would otherwise figure
things out on their own, in their own way.
My oldest probably would've been defined as being dyslexic, but I
never pushed her and she found ways to read happily. She found ways
to make the sense of the mixed up symbols on paper and screen.
-=-and am questioning the whole unschooling thing! but basically i
just need to know at this point how i should continue with him - i
don't want to deny a disabilityby saying - he'll learn in his own
sweet time' and i don't want to focus on it either?!-=-
You should be questioning the whole unschooling thing! Relax and
enjoy your son. Stop focusing on reading so much, stop spinning in
the mud of questioning his reading ability or possible disability.
It's debilitating and it will destroy peaceful unschooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Erika Grova-Silva
Just to clarify - Frog Leap videos are cartoons - they are not reading programs - they are storylines which explain phonics in a cartoon way - just like the pbs cartoon Between the Lions - and maybe a twelve year old might think they are too young - but for others they may be a great way to introduce sounds and words - The videos mentioned are not tricks to get kids to do things - schools would most likely not show kids cartoons about reading - since they'd be considered something other than schooling.
Erika Grova-Silva
Erika Grova-Silva
--- On Mon, 10/12/09, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
From: Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] learning to read at 12
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 10:58 AM
>>>It teaches kids the sound of each letter in 1st video and then how to put the sounds together in the second one - and they are very entertaining and fun. >>>
I think that is the wrong direction to go with an older child that is frustrated already with someone else trying to teach them to sound things out. Entertaining and fun are great! Both of my kids have done various reading things online and via games and such and have enjoyed it. There wasn't a goal to get them to read though. That can be extremely problematic.
Schools use tricks like that to get kids to do all kinds of things. It doesn't do much to help kids learn better, it only makes the medicine go down easier with that little bit of sugar.
The problem is that, kids all learn differently. So, something of that nature may be very frustrating to a child that doesn't process the written word in that manner. My oldest daughter didn't learn how to read that way at all! She collected words and eventually she had enough words collected to read most anything. That happened when she was about 11/12.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Just to clarify - Frog Leap videos are cartoons - they are not reading programs - they are storylines which explain phonics in a cartoon way - just like the pbs cartoon Between the Lions - and maybe a twelve year old might think they are too young - but for others they may be a great way to introduce sounds and words - The videos mentioned are not tricks to get kids to do things - schools would most likely not show kids cartoons about reading - since they'd be considered something other than schooling.***
I'm familiar with this style of kid's toys/learning/educational material. I know it's not a reading program, but it's cleverly designed to sneak in reading lessons, in an appealing way to small children. Many kids enjoy these things, even mine did.
I was visiting another family once, and they had other guests over. One of them was a middle school teacher. She said something like "as long as they are reading, whatever it takes to keep them reading", as if that was the only issue in regards to reading, just written word. I was thinking, "what, no fun? No reading for a need or for pleasure or any of that?" because the idea was that as long as the kids are reading then all must be good with the world. I told her that my oldest reads manga, when she wants a good story, and this woman who teaches and interacts on a daily basis with kids 11-14 had never heard of it.
I know that kids in elementary school jump through all kinds of "fun" activities to get them to read. Games and pictures and all kinds of reading exercises designed to "feel" like play are forced on kids everyday. Toy companies that create toys for the younger kids have made millions of baby toys with the alphabet all mixed in. Why do babies need to familiarize themselves with the alphabet? Clearly people think it will help with early reading skills and reading readiness. Fun or not, it's there for that reason. Otherwise a toy would be just a toy designed to do whatever it's supposed to do, or a video designed to be an entertaining story, would be just that.
It's not that I'm opposed to Sesame street or Reading Between the Lions, but the mentality behind those shows is to get kids to read, to provide reading readiness to young children in fun and palatable ways. Schools are not exception to that mode of thinking. What they do, is make it "official". No need to wear a mask to disguise what they do, but many classrooms try to make all that stuff "fun".
I
I'm familiar with this style of kid's toys/learning/educational material. I know it's not a reading program, but it's cleverly designed to sneak in reading lessons, in an appealing way to small children. Many kids enjoy these things, even mine did.
I was visiting another family once, and they had other guests over. One of them was a middle school teacher. She said something like "as long as they are reading, whatever it takes to keep them reading", as if that was the only issue in regards to reading, just written word. I was thinking, "what, no fun? No reading for a need or for pleasure or any of that?" because the idea was that as long as the kids are reading then all must be good with the world. I told her that my oldest reads manga, when she wants a good story, and this woman who teaches and interacts on a daily basis with kids 11-14 had never heard of it.
I know that kids in elementary school jump through all kinds of "fun" activities to get them to read. Games and pictures and all kinds of reading exercises designed to "feel" like play are forced on kids everyday. Toy companies that create toys for the younger kids have made millions of baby toys with the alphabet all mixed in. Why do babies need to familiarize themselves with the alphabet? Clearly people think it will help with early reading skills and reading readiness. Fun or not, it's there for that reason. Otherwise a toy would be just a toy designed to do whatever it's supposed to do, or a video designed to be an entertaining story, would be just that.
It's not that I'm opposed to Sesame street or Reading Between the Lions, but the mentality behind those shows is to get kids to read, to provide reading readiness to young children in fun and palatable ways. Schools are not exception to that mode of thinking. What they do, is make it "official". No need to wear a mask to disguise what they do, but many classrooms try to make all that stuff "fun".
I
Sandra Dodd
-=-Just to clarify - Frog Leap videos are cartoons - they are not
reading programs - they are storylines which explain phonics in a
cartoon way - just like the pbs cartoon Between the Lions - and maybe
a twelve year old might think they are too young - but for others they
may be a great way to introduce sounds and words - The videos
mentioned are not tricks to get kids to do things - schools would most
likely not show kids cartoons about reading - since they'd be
considered something other than schooling.-=-
Holly's nearly 18 and she'll still watch kids' shows. In some
families when music, books, and programs are defined and sorted into
"kids' shows" and "not for kids," it does make it harder for older
kids to learn things (for younger kids too, I think).
When Holly was little and Kirby and Marty were just starting to read,
sometimes I'd play "Sounds Like Fun" and if one of them started to
object, I might say, "It would be nice for Holly, though, to learn
those songs." And I know my kids can still sing some of the songs on
the CD. They were painless.
When I was a little kid I had a horribly difficult time learning the
days of the week. I worked at it for a couple of years when I was
six, seven, eight, always confusing Tuesday and Thursday. Years after
that my mom told me a story that made me sad and simultaneously pissed
me off.
When she was little her mom had taught her the days of the week by
singing them to the tune of Yankee Doodle. If you sing the whole tune
(verse and chorus), you've sung four weeks--a month.
DAMN IT!!!!! I could have learned it that way when I was three years
old. WHY didn't she sing that to me?
Here's why: She was singing it to herself at school one day at recess
or out at lunch, on the playground, in the late 1930's, and the
teacher thought it was wonderful, and asked her to sing it for the
class when she came in. My mom was mortified. If I could go back
before I was born and talk to those people I would have, on behalf of
the me yet to come, asked the teacher if she couldn't sing it to the
kids herself and not put my poor little tow-headed seven-year-old
mother up in front of the class. She had enough problems.
So all my kids learned the days of the week by me singing them, to
Yankee Doodle, while I brushed their teeth, or when we were counting
something down like holding the gas handle down to light the pilot
light on the furnace, or waiting for something to heat up in the
microwave. And the joke would be "I'm going to sing two months!" and
sing it twice, or "one month" and sing it through, four lines.
Things like that are playing, not teaching. But some families, I
think, throw the information baby out with the schoolish bathwater.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reading programs - they are storylines which explain phonics in a
cartoon way - just like the pbs cartoon Between the Lions - and maybe
a twelve year old might think they are too young - but for others they
may be a great way to introduce sounds and words - The videos
mentioned are not tricks to get kids to do things - schools would most
likely not show kids cartoons about reading - since they'd be
considered something other than schooling.-=-
Holly's nearly 18 and she'll still watch kids' shows. In some
families when music, books, and programs are defined and sorted into
"kids' shows" and "not for kids," it does make it harder for older
kids to learn things (for younger kids too, I think).
When Holly was little and Kirby and Marty were just starting to read,
sometimes I'd play "Sounds Like Fun" and if one of them started to
object, I might say, "It would be nice for Holly, though, to learn
those songs." And I know my kids can still sing some of the songs on
the CD. They were painless.
When I was a little kid I had a horribly difficult time learning the
days of the week. I worked at it for a couple of years when I was
six, seven, eight, always confusing Tuesday and Thursday. Years after
that my mom told me a story that made me sad and simultaneously pissed
me off.
When she was little her mom had taught her the days of the week by
singing them to the tune of Yankee Doodle. If you sing the whole tune
(verse and chorus), you've sung four weeks--a month.
DAMN IT!!!!! I could have learned it that way when I was three years
old. WHY didn't she sing that to me?
Here's why: She was singing it to herself at school one day at recess
or out at lunch, on the playground, in the late 1930's, and the
teacher thought it was wonderful, and asked her to sing it for the
class when she came in. My mom was mortified. If I could go back
before I was born and talk to those people I would have, on behalf of
the me yet to come, asked the teacher if she couldn't sing it to the
kids herself and not put my poor little tow-headed seven-year-old
mother up in front of the class. She had enough problems.
So all my kids learned the days of the week by me singing them, to
Yankee Doodle, while I brushed their teeth, or when we were counting
something down like holding the gas handle down to light the pilot
light on the furnace, or waiting for something to heat up in the
microwave. And the joke would be "I'm going to sing two months!" and
sing it twice, or "one month" and sing it through, four lines.
Things like that are playing, not teaching. But some families, I
think, throw the information baby out with the schoolish bathwater.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I told her that my oldest reads manga, when she wants a good story,
and this woman who teaches and interacts on a daily basis with kids
11-14 had never heard of it.-=-
I made an involuntary kind of eeeek sound down in my throat when I
read that!
-=-I know that kids in elementary school jump through all kinds of
"fun" activities to get them to read. Games and pictures and all kinds
of reading exercises designed to "feel" like play are forced on kids
everyday.-=-
In second grade, Miss Bency's class, in the end of a former army
barracks in the SW corner of the schoolyard in Espanola, we were doing
phonics. I had been in another world (Fort Worth, brand new all-
spiffy classroom at the brand new W.M.Green Elementary school) and
that school use look-see, not phonics. So it was new to me, but it
was like a puzzle, and the workbooks were pretty fun, but I didn't
like to be wrong, and I liked words. So I argued with the teacher
that I was right, that what I had circled DID start with the same
sound as the monkey. There was a spider monkey. M, not S. It said
"M" on the top of the page. So then there was a mug. It wasn't a
cup. I explained it to her. Cups are wider at the top than the
bottom. Mugs have straight sides.
But I'm over it now.
Really.
-= Toy companies that create toys for the younger kids have made
millions of baby toys with the alphabet all mixed in. Why do babies
need to familiarize themselves with the alphabet? Clearly people think
it will help with early reading skills and reading readiness. Fun or
not, it's there for that reason. Otherwise a toy would be just a toy
designed to do whatever it's supposed to do, or a video designed to be
an entertaining story, would be just that.-=-
But on Sesame Street when that guy sings "Would you like to buy an O"
and acts like he's selling drugs, or knock-0ff watches, or they sing
"Letter L" to a very Rebel-L type tune, that's fun that happens to
incidentally help kids identify letters, while they're singing and
laughing. That is unless the parents discourage them overtly or
subtly from having fun with such things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajHVLJG0298&feature=player_embedded
Would you like to buy an O? I'm Opening the door. It's not Often
that I Offer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjbpuK_H2VY
That one is awsome.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and this woman who teaches and interacts on a daily basis with kids
11-14 had never heard of it.-=-
I made an involuntary kind of eeeek sound down in my throat when I
read that!
-=-I know that kids in elementary school jump through all kinds of
"fun" activities to get them to read. Games and pictures and all kinds
of reading exercises designed to "feel" like play are forced on kids
everyday.-=-
In second grade, Miss Bency's class, in the end of a former army
barracks in the SW corner of the schoolyard in Espanola, we were doing
phonics. I had been in another world (Fort Worth, brand new all-
spiffy classroom at the brand new W.M.Green Elementary school) and
that school use look-see, not phonics. So it was new to me, but it
was like a puzzle, and the workbooks were pretty fun, but I didn't
like to be wrong, and I liked words. So I argued with the teacher
that I was right, that what I had circled DID start with the same
sound as the monkey. There was a spider monkey. M, not S. It said
"M" on the top of the page. So then there was a mug. It wasn't a
cup. I explained it to her. Cups are wider at the top than the
bottom. Mugs have straight sides.
But I'm over it now.
Really.
-= Toy companies that create toys for the younger kids have made
millions of baby toys with the alphabet all mixed in. Why do babies
need to familiarize themselves with the alphabet? Clearly people think
it will help with early reading skills and reading readiness. Fun or
not, it's there for that reason. Otherwise a toy would be just a toy
designed to do whatever it's supposed to do, or a video designed to be
an entertaining story, would be just that.-=-
But on Sesame Street when that guy sings "Would you like to buy an O"
and acts like he's selling drugs, or knock-0ff watches, or they sing
"Letter L" to a very Rebel-L type tune, that's fun that happens to
incidentally help kids identify letters, while they're singing and
laughing. That is unless the parents discourage them overtly or
subtly from having fun with such things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajHVLJG0298&feature=player_embedded
Would you like to buy an O? I'm Opening the door. It's not Often
that I Offer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjbpuK_H2VY
That one is awsome.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***But on Sesame Street when that guy sings "Would you like to buy an O"
and acts like he's selling drugs, or knock-0ff watches, or they sing
"Letter L" to a very Rebel-L type tune, that's fun that happens to
incidentally help kids identify letters, while they're singing and
laughing. That is unless the parents discourage them overtly or
subtly from having fun with such things.***
I think one of the reasons Sesame Street is so popular and has lasted for so long, is because it involves the whole wide world in the shows. Reading is a part of the whole wide world and that seems to be the way the show works in general with all the cool stuff they present.
Both of my kids have enjoyed Sesame Street. I was very disappointed when friends of Chamille dissed Sesame Street in front of Margaux. We would ask them to stop, but it didn't change the fact that they did and caused Margaux to feel silly and little to like it.
John's grandpa was a teacher for a while. He always told parents that their kids would be better off staying home and watching Sesame Street at the age of 5, 6, and 7, rather than going to school. He also always said that 8th grade was a complete waste of time and that all kids should skip that year. His kids did. It's always been the review year, it still may be. He was very supportive of our family homeschooling.
and acts like he's selling drugs, or knock-0ff watches, or they sing
"Letter L" to a very Rebel-L type tune, that's fun that happens to
incidentally help kids identify letters, while they're singing and
laughing. That is unless the parents discourage them overtly or
subtly from having fun with such things.***
I think one of the reasons Sesame Street is so popular and has lasted for so long, is because it involves the whole wide world in the shows. Reading is a part of the whole wide world and that seems to be the way the show works in general with all the cool stuff they present.
Both of my kids have enjoyed Sesame Street. I was very disappointed when friends of Chamille dissed Sesame Street in front of Margaux. We would ask them to stop, but it didn't change the fact that they did and caused Margaux to feel silly and little to like it.
John's grandpa was a teacher for a while. He always told parents that their kids would be better off staying home and watching Sesame Street at the age of 5, 6, and 7, rather than going to school. He also always said that 8th grade was a complete waste of time and that all kids should skip that year. His kids did. It's always been the review year, it still may be. He was very supportive of our family homeschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
=====> he has been homeschooled since the beginning of his life and because
we follow
this lad's process towards reading. He is now feeling badly because he has
been measured and found wanting. I know that was not the intention, but I
suspect that is what has happened. I would agree with Jenny, that the best
thing to do now is step back and just answer "what does this say" questions
when asked, and cheerfully read what he asks you to.
Cheerfully, that's the point - without carrying around in your heart the
idea of "Oh no, he still can't read"? What is in our hearts creeps out, even
when you think it isn't obvious.
Really, he *will* read. All is well.
I've been watching Jayn learning to read for several years now. She is about
to turn 10, so in the context of unschooling I can hardly even call her a
late reader, although if she were in school I suppose she would be
considered one.
She is pretty much reading fully now, although it is still work in the sense
that she applies her attention to it rather than just automatically decoding
any English text in front of her. She learned by her own combination of
whole word recognition, memorization and checking, guessing/working out
words from the context after recognizing the first letter, and maybe, maybe
a tiny, tiny bit of sounding out.
She is much more likely now to try sounding out an unfamiliar word to see
how it might fit into her impressive spoken vocabulary, than when she was
first beginning the process. What I find very interesting is that she has
told me that she finds reading aloud easier than silent reading, so I guess
I will be able to call her a proficient reader once I start seeing her
reading silently.
What did I do to help?
Provided masses of entertaining and interesting print material including
computer games.
Read anything she wanted me to when she said, "What does this say?"
Read the books aloud that she likes over and over. At the moment her
favorites are The Sisters Grimm and Nancy Drew stories. She told me that she
wants me to read them many times over to her so that she will find it easier
to recognize the words when she comes to read them for herself.
About accepting the state of non-reading:
http://familyrun.ning.com/profiles/blogs/2184370:BlogPost:21737
"When Jayn Reads".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
we follow
> an unschooling approach we have just let him be - i have read to him andI think there has been a lot of interference, albeit well intentioned, in
> use
> my finger to follow along under the words - i tried to do phonics with
> him
> but it seemed too frustrating for him and then i would just leave it for a
> while - it seems that he started learning by memorizing the words that he
> would see but it took him a long time to memorize the ones he knows now
> and he
> tells me that when he sees a word like 'saw' for instance i will tell him
> what
> it is and then when he sees it again he forgets - he gets really
> frustrated
> and says ' why can't i remember the words?! ======
this lad's process towards reading. He is now feeling badly because he has
been measured and found wanting. I know that was not the intention, but I
suspect that is what has happened. I would agree with Jenny, that the best
thing to do now is step back and just answer "what does this say" questions
when asked, and cheerfully read what he asks you to.
Cheerfully, that's the point - without carrying around in your heart the
idea of "Oh no, he still can't read"? What is in our hearts creeps out, even
when you think it isn't obvious.
Really, he *will* read. All is well.
I've been watching Jayn learning to read for several years now. She is about
to turn 10, so in the context of unschooling I can hardly even call her a
late reader, although if she were in school I suppose she would be
considered one.
She is pretty much reading fully now, although it is still work in the sense
that she applies her attention to it rather than just automatically decoding
any English text in front of her. She learned by her own combination of
whole word recognition, memorization and checking, guessing/working out
words from the context after recognizing the first letter, and maybe, maybe
a tiny, tiny bit of sounding out.
She is much more likely now to try sounding out an unfamiliar word to see
how it might fit into her impressive spoken vocabulary, than when she was
first beginning the process. What I find very interesting is that she has
told me that she finds reading aloud easier than silent reading, so I guess
I will be able to call her a proficient reader once I start seeing her
reading silently.
What did I do to help?
Provided masses of entertaining and interesting print material including
computer games.
Read anything she wanted me to when she said, "What does this say?"
Read the books aloud that she likes over and over. At the moment her
favorites are The Sisters Grimm and Nancy Drew stories. She told me that she
wants me to read them many times over to her so that she will find it easier
to recognize the words when she comes to read them for herself.
About accepting the state of non-reading:
http://familyrun.ning.com/profiles/blogs/2184370:BlogPost:21737
"When Jayn Reads".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
When I taught reading in ancient days, to 7th graders (12, 13 years
old, some 14 because they had failed a grade or two, poor guys), there
were books with a "second grade reading level" (short words, short
sentences) and teen interest level. I went looking to see what's out
there in that vein. Some of those books were really good and I wish I
still had them. Some days I wish I hadn't kept so much junk and other
days I wish I had everything I've ever owned. <g>
http://learningdisabilities.about.com/od/readingstrategies/qt/maxanderson1.htm
Found that.
If you get them, don't tell him they're super easy special-ed books.
Maybe get them and read them aloud to him. That's what I used to do.
I'd read them a chapter a day, and if they wanted to read more they
could pick the book up, or lots of the kids would read them on their
own after they're heard them once. They were largely about car racing
and adventures, and one was about a small plane crash and there was a
tourniquet in the story, and we talked about that, and the dangers (I
was always willing to stop to discuss things), and two kids in that
class ditched school one day, went into an abandoned house, one kid
cut his arm on glass, and the other kid did pressure and tourniquet
and took him to the hospital, which was just a few blocks away. It
was awesome. The hospital praised him, I praised him, the principal
was insufficiently impressed but I went and bragged them up in the
office, too.
Sandra
old, some 14 because they had failed a grade or two, poor guys), there
were books with a "second grade reading level" (short words, short
sentences) and teen interest level. I went looking to see what's out
there in that vein. Some of those books were really good and I wish I
still had them. Some days I wish I hadn't kept so much junk and other
days I wish I had everything I've ever owned. <g>
http://learningdisabilities.about.com/od/readingstrategies/qt/maxanderson1.htm
Found that.
If you get them, don't tell him they're super easy special-ed books.
Maybe get them and read them aloud to him. That's what I used to do.
I'd read them a chapter a day, and if they wanted to read more they
could pick the book up, or lots of the kids would read them on their
own after they're heard them once. They were largely about car racing
and adventures, and one was about a small plane crash and there was a
tourniquet in the story, and we talked about that, and the dangers (I
was always willing to stop to discuss things), and two kids in that
class ditched school one day, went into an abandoned house, one kid
cut his arm on glass, and the other kid did pressure and tourniquet
and took him to the hospital, which was just a few blocks away. It
was awesome. The hospital praised him, I praised him, the principal
was insufficiently impressed but I went and bragged them up in the
office, too.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 12, 2009, at 2:19 PM, Erika Grova-Silva wrote:
unschooling.
People learn by picking up bits of the world here and there in
various contexts. While sometimes we pull facts in, mainly we piece
things together and make our own sense out of them. It would be a lot
more efficient (for schools especially) if we naturally learned by
absorbing someone else's understanding! But we don't. We need to make
our own connections, make our own sense of the world. (The way we
naturally learn is way better! Natural learning allows us to come up
with novel ways of using and understanding the world.)
Which is why giving kids a rich environment is important for natural
learning. Kids need to pull sounds and words (and everything else)
from various contexts, play with them, come up with theories about
how they work, play some more.
But introducing sounds and words suggests there's a way -- and a need
-- to get those isolated, contextless pieces into kids. There isn't.
Natural learning doesn't work that way. Natural learning needs the
whole picture and the child will pull out whatever pieces intrigue
him. The context is just as important as the pieces.
Programs like Sesame Street and Between the Lions (and I'm assuming
Leap Frog) can be useful when they're like other things, swirling
through kids' lives to pay attention to or not as the interest
strikes them.
The problem with introducing programs to a child wanting to read
(especially an older child) is that they seem like systems to learn
to read. If his brain isn't ready yet, if he learns differently, if
phonics doesn't make sense to him, they'll just frustrate him and
make him feel dumb.
If we could teach kids to read, schools wouldn't be struggling with
it. There would be a handful of programs and the kids would be
matched up with the program that fit their need and there you'd go!
What maintains the illusion that reading can be taught is that the
lessons come at the time kids are naturally figuring reading out
(which we only know from unschooled kids!) Sometimes kids are
puzzling something out in their subconscious and a fact from a
program might provide the missing piece and they get an "Aha!"
moment. And schools redefine what reading is to match what they can
get kids to do. While we might (rightly) define reading as picking up
something you want to read and extracting meaning from it, schools
get to define it in a way that they can say "Yes, this child is on
the path to reading."
Joyce
> but for others they may be a great way to introduce sounds and wordsI think "introduce" is a problematic word for people trying to get
unschooling.
People learn by picking up bits of the world here and there in
various contexts. While sometimes we pull facts in, mainly we piece
things together and make our own sense out of them. It would be a lot
more efficient (for schools especially) if we naturally learned by
absorbing someone else's understanding! But we don't. We need to make
our own connections, make our own sense of the world. (The way we
naturally learn is way better! Natural learning allows us to come up
with novel ways of using and understanding the world.)
Which is why giving kids a rich environment is important for natural
learning. Kids need to pull sounds and words (and everything else)
from various contexts, play with them, come up with theories about
how they work, play some more.
But introducing sounds and words suggests there's a way -- and a need
-- to get those isolated, contextless pieces into kids. There isn't.
Natural learning doesn't work that way. Natural learning needs the
whole picture and the child will pull out whatever pieces intrigue
him. The context is just as important as the pieces.
Programs like Sesame Street and Between the Lions (and I'm assuming
Leap Frog) can be useful when they're like other things, swirling
through kids' lives to pay attention to or not as the interest
strikes them.
The problem with introducing programs to a child wanting to read
(especially an older child) is that they seem like systems to learn
to read. If his brain isn't ready yet, if he learns differently, if
phonics doesn't make sense to him, they'll just frustrate him and
make him feel dumb.
If we could teach kids to read, schools wouldn't be struggling with
it. There would be a handful of programs and the kids would be
matched up with the program that fit their need and there you'd go!
What maintains the illusion that reading can be taught is that the
lessons come at the time kids are naturally figuring reading out
(which we only know from unschooled kids!) Sometimes kids are
puzzling something out in their subconscious and a fact from a
program might provide the missing piece and they get an "Aha!"
moment. And schools redefine what reading is to match what they can
get kids to do. While we might (rightly) define reading as picking up
something you want to read and extracting meaning from it, schools
get to define it in a way that they can say "Yes, this child is on
the path to reading."
Joyce
carnationsgalore
> i have been reading about dyslexia - and it sounds exactly likeI understand you feel frustrated, but I don't think labeling him is a good idea. If a child isn't developmentally ready to read, no amount of verbal pushing, worksheets, textbooks, or simple readers are going to change that. Surely that causes frustration on both sides. That is why some kids have learning disability labels. I think teachers are offended when a child doesn't learn under their instruction, especially with all the "help" used. I have never understood that belief because I had college classes in early childhood education that focused on learning about developmental skills. Those skills just cannot be hurried anymore than someone can make a child walk or talk earlier.
> that - so of course now i am feeling guilty about not getting him
> help earlier! and am questioning the whole unschooling thing!
I think others are offering great advice. I have one question though. Did your son decide he was ready to read, or have you or someone else nudged him because of his age?
Beth M.
[email protected]
My daughter,11+, still doesn't read fluently. We unschool and it didn't
matter to me *when* she started reading. She showed no interest in it and so I
just let her *be*. She loves to be read to, loves books on tape and is
very very creative. If I ever got nervous, I would just reassure myself by
talking to other unschoolers <<G>>.
But then things started to happen. She didn't want to rejoin her groups(
girl scouts, game days, etc) and go certain places because she was starting
to feel *less than* because reading was mostly always needed and she
couldn't keep up. She had, and still has, a wonderful self image and I didn't want
her reading to affect her life, so I offered to go *with* her, mostly for
moral support. She agreed to some things but others she let slide. But that
was her choice.
The schools would probably label her dyslexic. She is definitely right
brained and learns more through kinestetic and visual means vs auditory. But
that is HER. That is how she learns.
She attended a 10 week, one day a week ,town program ( that she wanted to
attend,cuz her friend had gone and loved it) and it allowed her to make
pictures in her head of over 200 sight words. The program gave her immense
confidence.
She IS making progress and she is happy with the progress she is making,
which I think is all that matters.
Texting on her phone has helped immensely, as well as instant messaging,
and the online game Runescape ( as well as other games online).
She loves to cook and is reading recipes. She practices reading childrens
books and poetry so she can then read them to her niece and my
childcare/gentle preschool children. She loves to play Boggle, Scrabble and Banangrams
with us, even if her words are small. She is taking ALL of it in.
She knows she can ask me what any word says and how to spell it. She knows
I won't frustrate her by asking her to sound it out, etc.
So ..she is coming along on her terms. Will she ever be a great reader or
speller, ? I don't now. It doesn't matter. There are so many coping
mechanisms for people, like software, etc, that can even help in college if that is
her path.
Reading and reading well has nothing to do with intelligence. Oftentimes
children who don't have a *rich* life are only able to learn about what they
can read, and if they can't read well it limits the info they can take in.
But there's all kinds of books on tape and videos and TV that can excite
and expand the mind, not to mention the whole wide world! But we, as
unschoolers, know that :)
~marcia simonds
_http://livefreeinharmony.xanga.com/_ (http://livefreeinharmony.xanga.com/)
_www.anestinnature.com_ (http://www.anestinnature.com)
In a message dated 10/12/2009 11:16:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
connie.k.johnson@... writes:
I would like to start a thread about late reading and suggestions for
strategies. My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when reading
with him and listening to him read I am finding that he has a lot of
difficulty breaking up words into their parts (structural analysis) and tries to
break most words up phonetically - sounding out each letter - so 'poster'
for example becomes 'p', 'o', 's', t', e' r - which is painstakingly slow
and extrememly inefficient. Of course the comprehension gets totally lost
when he uses this approach - i am finding that he is resistant to me sounding
it out for him and telling him the word or offering any strategies at all
that may be more efficient - then the frustration sets in - on him and on me
- agh! does anyone have any suggestions for us?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
matter to me *when* she started reading. She showed no interest in it and so I
just let her *be*. She loves to be read to, loves books on tape and is
very very creative. If I ever got nervous, I would just reassure myself by
talking to other unschoolers <<G>>.
But then things started to happen. She didn't want to rejoin her groups(
girl scouts, game days, etc) and go certain places because she was starting
to feel *less than* because reading was mostly always needed and she
couldn't keep up. She had, and still has, a wonderful self image and I didn't want
her reading to affect her life, so I offered to go *with* her, mostly for
moral support. She agreed to some things but others she let slide. But that
was her choice.
The schools would probably label her dyslexic. She is definitely right
brained and learns more through kinestetic and visual means vs auditory. But
that is HER. That is how she learns.
She attended a 10 week, one day a week ,town program ( that she wanted to
attend,cuz her friend had gone and loved it) and it allowed her to make
pictures in her head of over 200 sight words. The program gave her immense
confidence.
She IS making progress and she is happy with the progress she is making,
which I think is all that matters.
Texting on her phone has helped immensely, as well as instant messaging,
and the online game Runescape ( as well as other games online).
She loves to cook and is reading recipes. She practices reading childrens
books and poetry so she can then read them to her niece and my
childcare/gentle preschool children. She loves to play Boggle, Scrabble and Banangrams
with us, even if her words are small. She is taking ALL of it in.
She knows she can ask me what any word says and how to spell it. She knows
I won't frustrate her by asking her to sound it out, etc.
So ..she is coming along on her terms. Will she ever be a great reader or
speller, ? I don't now. It doesn't matter. There are so many coping
mechanisms for people, like software, etc, that can even help in college if that is
her path.
Reading and reading well has nothing to do with intelligence. Oftentimes
children who don't have a *rich* life are only able to learn about what they
can read, and if they can't read well it limits the info they can take in.
But there's all kinds of books on tape and videos and TV that can excite
and expand the mind, not to mention the whole wide world! But we, as
unschoolers, know that :)
~marcia simonds
_http://livefreeinharmony.xanga.com/_ (http://livefreeinharmony.xanga.com/)
_www.anestinnature.com_ (http://www.anestinnature.com)
In a message dated 10/12/2009 11:16:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
connie.k.johnson@... writes:
I would like to start a thread about late reading and suggestions for
strategies. My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when reading
with him and listening to him read I am finding that he has a lot of
difficulty breaking up words into their parts (structural analysis) and tries to
break most words up phonetically - sounding out each letter - so 'poster'
for example becomes 'p', 'o', 's', t', e' r - which is painstakingly slow
and extrememly inefficient. Of course the comprehension gets totally lost
when he uses this approach - i am finding that he is resistant to me sounding
it out for him and telling him the word or offering any strategies at all
that may be more efficient - then the frustration sets in - on him and on me
- agh! does anyone have any suggestions for us?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Reading and reading well has nothing to do with intelligence.
Oftentimes
children who don't have a *rich* life are only able to learn about
what they
can read, and if they can't read well it limits the info they can take
in.
But there's all kinds of books on tape and videos and TV that can excite
and expand the mind, not to mention the whole wide world! But we, as
unschoolers, know that :)-=-
Yes!
Schoolkids who can't read learn ways to cover it, dodge, get in
trouble, fake illness, blame someone, start a fight...
Holly just used to say "I can't read fast yet," or I can't read this
yet."
I talked to a scout leader and a dance teacher for her. She was in an
acting class and I said "she doesn't read yet," and the teacher said
"Well, she HAS to read." I said why? And it turned out what she "had
to do" was to memorize little speeches. Good! Some of the other kids
never did actually learn them, because they could look back at the
paper, so Holly did better with the acting parts than they did. We
went through the things at home that she "needed to read." And Holly
herself asked me, "Could Shirley Temple read when she was first
acting?" I didn't think so.
Some of the Holly stories are here:
http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oftentimes
children who don't have a *rich* life are only able to learn about
what they
can read, and if they can't read well it limits the info they can take
in.
But there's all kinds of books on tape and videos and TV that can excite
and expand the mind, not to mention the whole wide world! But we, as
unschoolers, know that :)-=-
Yes!
Schoolkids who can't read learn ways to cover it, dodge, get in
trouble, fake illness, blame someone, start a fight...
Holly just used to say "I can't read fast yet," or I can't read this
yet."
I talked to a scout leader and a dance teacher for her. She was in an
acting class and I said "she doesn't read yet," and the teacher said
"Well, she HAS to read." I said why? And it turned out what she "had
to do" was to memorize little speeches. Good! Some of the other kids
never did actually learn them, because they could look back at the
paper, so Holly did better with the acting parts than they did. We
went through the things at home that she "needed to read." And Holly
herself asked me, "Could Shirley Temple read when she was first
acting?" I didn't think so.
Some of the Holly stories are here:
http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
This has been asked many times in list and I am going to point you out some old posts by Danielle
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/message/9521
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/message/7381
hope that helps!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
__
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/message/9521
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/message/7381
hope that helps!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
__
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Sorry about this last e-mail!
I was trying to eat and post and sent to the wrong address!!!!!!
I apologize!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was trying to eat and post and sent to the wrong address!!!!!!
I apologize!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-= Sorry about this last e-mail!
I was trying to eat and post and sent to the wrong address!!!!!!
I apologize!-=-
They'll work for people who are on that list, though! (The links went
to Always Unschooled, not AlwaysLearning.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was trying to eat and post and sent to the wrong address!!!!!!
I apologize!-=-
They'll work for people who are on that list, though! (The links went
to Always Unschooled, not AlwaysLearning.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
> Why do babies need to familiarize themselves with the alphabet?I disagree. I think that may be over-analyzing the situation. I sang ABCs and counted 123 with my kids as babies. I never even thought of that as preparing my kids for school. I also sang I'm a Little Teapot, Patty-cake, All the Pretty Little Horses, and lots of other kiddie type songs. They were fun sing-song things that we clapped to and giggled about.
> Clearly people think it will help with early reading skills and
> reading readiness. Fun or not, it's there for that reason.
I agree that those types of cartoons may be too young for an older child, but I don't think anyone needs to use something the way it is designed, like my kids playing with the pieces of a game and the game board without having any interest in following the rules. I don't think toys, books, or videos (or anything else for that matter) need to be avoided simply because they were designed to be used in another way.
Beth M.
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "conj123" <connie.k.johnson@...> wrote:
Imagine it's some time in the future - perhaps when your son is in his late teens or a young adult, maybe this time next year - and imagine that he's reading in whatever way satisfies the purpose of learning to read. Perhaps reading the daily newspaper, or the instructions for building something, or reading a book for pleasure. Whatever it is you think he needs to be able to read FOR. See him doing it. In your mind. Make it seem real.
Now let go of all the preconceived ideas you have about what you need to do for your son to learn to read. You've established in your mind that your son became a fluent reader. Allow your mind to suggest to you how that was achieved.
Or, as Stephen Covey wrote in '7 Habits of Highly Effective People', "Start with the end in mind".
Bob
>This might seem a bit hippy dippy, but this is what I would do.
> I would like to start a thread about late reading and suggestions for strategies. My son is 12 years old now and just learning to read - when reading with him and listening to him read I am finding that he has a lot of difficulty breaking up words into their parts (structural analysis) and tries to break most words up phonetically - sounding out each letter - so 'poster' for example becomes 'p', 'o', 's', t', e' r - which is painstakingly slow and extrememly inefficient. Of course the comprehension gets totally lost when he uses this approach - i am finding that he is resistant to me sounding it out for him and telling him the word or offering any strategies at all that may be more efficient - then the frustration sets in - on him and on me - agh! does anyone have any suggestions for us?
>
Imagine it's some time in the future - perhaps when your son is in his late teens or a young adult, maybe this time next year - and imagine that he's reading in whatever way satisfies the purpose of learning to read. Perhaps reading the daily newspaper, or the instructions for building something, or reading a book for pleasure. Whatever it is you think he needs to be able to read FOR. See him doing it. In your mind. Make it seem real.
Now let go of all the preconceived ideas you have about what you need to do for your son to learn to read. You've established in your mind that your son became a fluent reader. Allow your mind to suggest to you how that was achieved.
Or, as Stephen Covey wrote in '7 Habits of Highly Effective People', "Start with the end in mind".
Bob
Mischa Holt
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for comments and insights into the
various ways children adapt reading into their lives. And offer a bit of
encouragement to others with late readers.
I have a 14 year old that still doesn't read great but is busy decoding in
his own way. When it's something he wants to know he works on it and gets
it and moves on..same thing with reading. The other day he read out loud on
his own (I didn't ask him to read it). It was something pretty advanced and
I was "wowed" but I kept it to myself so as not to "ruin" the moment. I was
surprised at his ability to read at that level having never had any
"lessons" and hating reading in general.
These wow moments will come but try not to "ruin" the ownership and
accomplishments of your children by overwhelming them with how shocked you
are at their ability. I have done that so many times because I "see" things
in the schoolish way that I learned them. It's not that I am so shocked
that they learned it..as I knew in my heart all along that they would..it's
more my own "wow" moment of realizing I didn't have to force anything at
all. Just live and love them and provide lots of info as they want it. So
I've learned the hard way to quietly savor the "wow" moments and not spoil
my children's joy in learning when I realize they learned it totally
differently than I did (less painstakingly, even!)
The only big thing I've done that I think has been helpful for my 14 year
old is to share with him stories about other late readers that have been
successful in their chosen fields. And I remind all my children on a
regular basis "why" we unschool rather than doing things the way their peers
do in school settings. And believe it or not most of my children's friends
are from school settings and they tell my kids all the time they would LOVE
to trade places with them or be "homeschooled" with them.
Hang in there. It will come. And thank you all for this group that affirms
the things we know in our hearts but struggle against because of how we were
forced to learn.
~Mischa in GA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
various ways children adapt reading into their lives. And offer a bit of
encouragement to others with late readers.
I have a 14 year old that still doesn't read great but is busy decoding in
his own way. When it's something he wants to know he works on it and gets
it and moves on..same thing with reading. The other day he read out loud on
his own (I didn't ask him to read it). It was something pretty advanced and
I was "wowed" but I kept it to myself so as not to "ruin" the moment. I was
surprised at his ability to read at that level having never had any
"lessons" and hating reading in general.
These wow moments will come but try not to "ruin" the ownership and
accomplishments of your children by overwhelming them with how shocked you
are at their ability. I have done that so many times because I "see" things
in the schoolish way that I learned them. It's not that I am so shocked
that they learned it..as I knew in my heart all along that they would..it's
more my own "wow" moment of realizing I didn't have to force anything at
all. Just live and love them and provide lots of info as they want it. So
I've learned the hard way to quietly savor the "wow" moments and not spoil
my children's joy in learning when I realize they learned it totally
differently than I did (less painstakingly, even!)
The only big thing I've done that I think has been helpful for my 14 year
old is to share with him stories about other late readers that have been
successful in their chosen fields. And I remind all my children on a
regular basis "why" we unschool rather than doing things the way their peers
do in school settings. And believe it or not most of my children's friends
are from school settings and they tell my kids all the time they would LOVE
to trade places with them or be "homeschooled" with them.
Hang in there. It will come. And thank you all for this group that affirms
the things we know in our hearts but struggle against because of how we were
forced to learn.
~Mischa in GA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
*** It's not that I am so shocked that they learned it..as I knew in my heart all along that they would..it's more my own "wow" moment of realizing I didn't have to force anything at all.***
I know that feeling so well! It's especially like that when you have a child like my Chamille, who keeps things in her head. I never know what she knows because it was all very internal. Then she says or does something and I'm wowed! My younger daughter is much more out of her head and I get to hear and see the process a lot more.
Something I find really fascinating about unschooled kids, is that they take it all for granted. They know they can learn things, if you were to point it out, it would be a "duh!" moment on their behalf. They don't question their knowledge like that, they own it and it's a part of who they are. There will always be inevitable frustrations in life, and I do remember there were times for Chamille, as a late reader, that she would be frustrated, because she knew others her age could read. It helped tremendously that she could focus on the things she was good at, and it helped a lot that we listened to lots of books on tape and cd because, book for book, she'd "read" more than most of her peers.
Now, though, at the age of 15, most of her schooled peers read begrudgingly and only for school assignments off a list of school approved books. Chamille's not a huge book reader, she'll go through phases where she'll read several novels, then not read any books for months. She reads tons online, even stories that people have written. When she reflects back to those days right before she was truly able to read, she hardly remembers the frustration at all, she remembers all the other things she was doing. She remembers when she was finally able to decode the written word and actually read a book and things online without help and wonders why kids in school need to be forced, when clearly it can be done without it! Since she knows this without a doubt, she extends that logic to everything else in the whole wide world.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know that feeling so well! It's especially like that when you have a child like my Chamille, who keeps things in her head. I never know what she knows because it was all very internal. Then she says or does something and I'm wowed! My younger daughter is much more out of her head and I get to hear and see the process a lot more.
Something I find really fascinating about unschooled kids, is that they take it all for granted. They know they can learn things, if you were to point it out, it would be a "duh!" moment on their behalf. They don't question their knowledge like that, they own it and it's a part of who they are. There will always be inevitable frustrations in life, and I do remember there were times for Chamille, as a late reader, that she would be frustrated, because she knew others her age could read. It helped tremendously that she could focus on the things she was good at, and it helped a lot that we listened to lots of books on tape and cd because, book for book, she'd "read" more than most of her peers.
Now, though, at the age of 15, most of her schooled peers read begrudgingly and only for school assignments off a list of school approved books. Chamille's not a huge book reader, she'll go through phases where she'll read several novels, then not read any books for months. She reads tons online, even stories that people have written. When she reflects back to those days right before she was truly able to read, she hardly remembers the frustration at all, she remembers all the other things she was doing. She remembers when she was finally able to decode the written word and actually read a book and things online without help and wonders why kids in school need to be forced, when clearly it can be done without it! Since she knows this without a doubt, she extends that logic to everything else in the whole wide world.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-...a child like my Chamille, who keeps things in her head. I never
know what she knows because it was all very internal. Then she says
or does something and I'm wowed! ...
Marty is that way. He doesn't come and tell me what he's learning.
But this morning when I woke up 3:00 ish and he had just come home (he
heard me blow my nose and came into the office to see if I was okay),
we talked about drugs and sleeping, and hydrocodone (I'm coming off
that, maybe too abruptly) and Ambien commercials and told me some
about a movie he saw about "the rape drug" (he knew the name and the
nickname, but I forget) and the amnesiac drug they give me at the
dentist, and he knew more about all those things and the similarities
and difference than I did, not because he's used them; he hasn't, but
because he makes good connections of the information he takes in.
We talked about how parents of young children should probably not take
ANY sleeping aids, especially not Ambien or anything else that's a
known amnesiac(oidal...whatever it takes to make the drug-adjective
form of amnesia).
Holly likes to talk about what she's learned as it's happening, and
that's more fun for me because I'm also a "process by talking" person,
as people on this list must know. :-)
So if you have a talkative kid, talk! If you have a quiet kid, be
prepared to be amazed from time to time and try not to make too big a
deal of it when it unfolds before you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
know what she knows because it was all very internal. Then she says
or does something and I'm wowed! ...
Marty is that way. He doesn't come and tell me what he's learning.
But this morning when I woke up 3:00 ish and he had just come home (he
heard me blow my nose and came into the office to see if I was okay),
we talked about drugs and sleeping, and hydrocodone (I'm coming off
that, maybe too abruptly) and Ambien commercials and told me some
about a movie he saw about "the rape drug" (he knew the name and the
nickname, but I forget) and the amnesiac drug they give me at the
dentist, and he knew more about all those things and the similarities
and difference than I did, not because he's used them; he hasn't, but
because he makes good connections of the information he takes in.
We talked about how parents of young children should probably not take
ANY sleeping aids, especially not Ambien or anything else that's a
known amnesiac(oidal...whatever it takes to make the drug-adjective
form of amnesia).
Holly likes to talk about what she's learned as it's happening, and
that's more fun for me because I'm also a "process by talking" person,
as people on this list must know. :-)
So if you have a talkative kid, talk! If you have a quiet kid, be
prepared to be amazed from time to time and try not to make too big a
deal of it when it unfolds before you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=The other day he read out loud on
his own (I didn't ask him to read it). It was something pretty
advanced and
I was "wowed" but I kept it to myself so as not to "ruin" the moment.
I was
surprised at his ability to read at that level having never had any
"lessons" and hating reading in general. -=-
The first time I heard Kirby read aloud, he was reading something from
a gaming manual or a magazine article on a game, I think, to other
gamers, in the library. I was in the next room and overheard it. He
was 14 or 15 and he read it with confidence and feeling, and they were
all paying rapt attention. I knew some of them knew he had been a
later reader than they would've expected and he was late to have
handwriting (though he could type like crazy). Some of them were high
school students; some were in college. I detected no bit of self-
consciousness or discomfort from any of them, and then realized there
was no reason for any. It was all in me! Kirby was reading for a
purpose, with an autdience, and well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
his own (I didn't ask him to read it). It was something pretty
advanced and
I was "wowed" but I kept it to myself so as not to "ruin" the moment.
I was
surprised at his ability to read at that level having never had any
"lessons" and hating reading in general. -=-
The first time I heard Kirby read aloud, he was reading something from
a gaming manual or a magazine article on a game, I think, to other
gamers, in the library. I was in the next room and overheard it. He
was 14 or 15 and he read it with confidence and feeling, and they were
all paying rapt attention. I knew some of them knew he had been a
later reader than they would've expected and he was late to have
handwriting (though he could type like crazy). Some of them were high
school students; some were in college. I detected no bit of self-
consciousness or discomfort from any of them, and then realized there
was no reason for any. It was all in me! Kirby was reading for a
purpose, with an autdience, and well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]