Sandra Dodd

-=-I still have some "old school" thought processes. I am trying so
hard to rid myself of them.-=-

I've had a brief e-mail exchange with a mom whose teenaged boy has an
interest in someone he met online, who is in her late 20s. At first
the mom was really angry and wanted to prevent their meeting, or meet
the young woman and do her bodily damage (those of you who are not the
mothers of teenaged boys, don't judge too harshly; I know the urge).

I'll put what I've already written, but I asked the mom to join the
list here so the idea can be discussed without her needing to identify
herself or her son or even where she lives. Okay? So let's discuss
this idea and offer up examples and evidence from readings or real
life experiences, please.

From two e-mails I sent:
========================

what if you invite her over to meet her? Maybe she's great.

Unschooled kids are more mature in many caes than others around them.
Holly had a boyfriend eight years older. She broke up with him
because he was immature and negative. It doesn't mean she's always
"mature"--at the conference she went to a babydolls workship and a
High School Musical dance with younger kids. But her interpersonal
abilities are beyond most school kids

========================

I thought some more about your situation afterwards. I'm on heavy
painkillers this week and am not always awake or clear.

School has given us a false picture and a false situation about
marriage ages. It makes no sense. Historically it was VERY common
for teenaged girls to marry men in their late 20's and 30's, who
already had jobs and houses. A couple of the strongest couples I know
have a wife quite a bit older than the husband. One is 20 years
older, and they raised her grandson--adopted the child of one of her
daughters, and he was unschooled after 3rd grade Montessori. My kids
hung out with him for years and then he moved to [another state on the
east coast].

The son of [a named friend of mine; edited out] was unschooled from
8th grade on. .... His son... married a woman eight or ten years
older, and he met her online, and they're happy. They had common
interests in religion and music.

It's possible that she's a wonderful person, and you might run her off
and spoil your relationship with your son and he might marry someone
"appropriate" who will ruin his life.
Or you might encourage his current interest under your watchful eye,
and he might decide he doesn't like the woman after all.

Some people were disturbed that Holly had a much older boyfriend, but
she broke it off with him, politely and slowly so he could save face.
He's pining for her and writing sad things on MySpace, but she's
merrily off in Oregon having a great life.
========================

back to now, still Sandra:

I think "old school" has literally to do with *school.* High school
kids weren't allowed to fraternize with midschool/jr. high kids.
College kids were discouraged (officially and unofficially) from
hanging out with high school kids. This created a VERY small window
of "appropriate" dating ages, and was based on school and NOT biology
or social sensibleness.

Sandra

[email protected]

My Dad was 8 years younger then my mom.  She had 4 kids when they met.  My Grandmother (my Dad's mom) moved him from California to Oklahoma to get him away from her and she followed him.  They were very happily married for 35 years till my Dad pasted away. 



I have a 16 year old son so I can completely understand her aprehinsion.  I think I would want to meet the lady and find out why my son was so into her.  I would also want to find out what she sees in my son.  Maybe he is very mature and she is a bit inmature.  Who knows were their relationship may go.  If by any chance they were to marry I wouldnt want to create turmoil with my future DIL.  I would want to maintain a healthy relationship with my son.



Tiffani


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 12:05:39 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] couples of dissimilar ages

 




-=-I still have some "old school" thought processes. I am trying so
hard to rid myself of them.-=-

I've had a brief e-mail exchange with a mom whose teenaged boy has an
interest in someone he met online, who is in her late 20s. At first
the mom was really angry and wanted to prevent their meeting, or meet
the young woman and do her bodily damage (those of you who are not the
mothers of teenaged boys, don't judge too harshly; I know the urge).

I'll put what I've already written, but I asked the mom to join the
list here so the idea can be discussed without her needing to identify
herself or her son or even where she lives. Okay? So let's discuss
this idea and offer up examples and evidence from readings or real
life experiences, please.

From two e-mails I sent:
========================

what if you invite her over to meet her? Maybe she's great.

Unschooled kids are more mature in many caes than others around them.
Holly had a boyfriend eight years older. She broke up with him
because he was immature and negative. It doesn't mean she's always
"mature"--at the conference she went to a babydolls workship and a
High School Musical dance with younger kids. But her interpersonal
abilities are beyond most school kids

========================

I thought some more about your situation afterwards. I'm on heavy
painkillers this week and am not always awake or clear.

School has given us a false picture and a false situation about
marriage ages. It makes no sense. Historically it was VERY common
for teenaged girls to marry men in their late 20's and 30's, who
already had jobs and houses. A couple of the strongest couples I know
have a wife quite a bit older than the husband. One is 20 years
older, and they raised her grandson--adopted the child of one of her
daughters, and he was unschooled after 3rd grade Montessori. My kids
hung out with him for years and then he moved to [another state on the
east coast].

The son of [a named friend of mine; edited out] was unschooled from
8th grade on. .... His son... married a woman eight or ten years
older, and he met her online, and they're happy. They had common
interests in religion and music.

It's possible that she's a wonderful person, and you might run her off
and spoil your relationship with your son and he might marry someone
"appropriate" who will ruin his life.
Or you might encourage his current interest under your watchful eye,
and he might decide he doesn't like the woman after all.

Some people were disturbed that Holly had a much older boyfriend, but
she broke it off with him, politely and slowly so he could save face.
He's pining for her and writing sad things on MySpace, but she's
merrily off in Oregon having a great life.
========================

back to now, still Sandra:

I think "old school" has literally to do with *school.* High school
kids weren't allowed to fraternize with midschool/jr. high kids.
College kids were discouraged (officially and unofficially) from
hanging out with high school kids. This created a VERY small window
of "appropriate" dating ages, and was based on school and NOT biology
or social sensibleness.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cynthia Hartley

If I were the mother of that boy, I would not let him date a woman in her late 20's. Yes, unschooled kids may be more mature, but I would seriously consider the motives of a grown woman in her late 20's interested in a boy (and yes, he is still a boy) in his teens. There is a HUGE difference in emotional maturity between a male teenager and a female in her late twenties, regardless how mature the teenager might be.

My opinion is skewed from a (almost) personal experience; a very close friend of mine fell in love with a 30 year old woman when he was 17 years old. Albeit, he was an extremely mature and bright seventeen year old, but he was still 17 years old. When she became pregnant, he stood up and met his responsibilities. Sixteen months later, the older woman dumped him. Seems she was just a control freak who was looking for a sperm donor and he has now lived a nightmare the last seven years, fighting to be a part of his daughter's life.

I'm not saying that the same situation couldn't happen with a woman his own age, but, generally speaking I find it odd that a grown woman would be romantically interested in, essentially, a child. I also don't believe that a teenager has the emotional maturity or foresight to detect when someone is using them or has ulterior motives. And personally, I don't believe "schooling" or "unschooling" has anything to do with this situation; it is about wisdom gained through lessons learned that do not present themselves early in life.

Cyndi

To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 13:05:39 -0600
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] couples of dissimilar ages





















-=-I still have some "old school" thought processes. I am trying so

hard to rid myself of them.-=-



I've had a brief e-mail exchange with a mom whose teenaged boy has an

interest in someone he met online, who is in her late 20s. At first

the mom was really angry and wanted to prevent their meeting, or meet

the young woman and do her bodily damage (those of you who are not the

mothers of teenaged boys, don't judge too harshly; I know the urge).



I'll put what I've already written, but I asked the mom to join the

list here so the idea can be discussed without her needing to identify

herself or her son or even where she lives. Okay? So let's discuss

this idea and offer up examples and evidence from readings or real

life experiences, please.



From two e-mails I sent:

========================



what if you invite her over to meet her? Maybe she's great.



Unschooled kids are more mature in many caes than others around them.

Holly had a boyfriend eight years older. She broke up with him

because he was immature and negative. It doesn't mean she's always

"mature"--at the conference she went to a babydolls workship and a

High School Musical dance with younger kids. But her interpersonal

abilities are beyond most school kids



========================



I thought some more about your situation afterwards. I'm on heavy

painkillers this week and am not always awake or clear.



School has given us a false picture and a false situation about

marriage ages. It makes no sense. Historically it was VERY common

for teenaged girls to marry men in their late 20's and 30's, who

already had jobs and houses. A couple of the strongest couples I know

have a wife quite a bit older than the husband. One is 20 years

older, and they raised her grandson--adopted the child of one of her

daughters, and he was unschooled after 3rd grade Montessori. My kids

hung out with him for years and then he moved to [another state on the

east coast].



The son of [a named friend of mine; edited out] was unschooled from

8th grade on. .... His son... married a woman eight or ten years

older, and he met her online, and they're happy. They had common

interests in religion and music.



It's possible that she's a wonderful person, and you might run her off

and spoil your relationship with your son and he might marry someone

"appropriate" who will ruin his life.

Or you might encourage his current interest under your watchful eye,

and he might decide he doesn't like the woman after all.



Some people were disturbed that Holly had a much older boyfriend, but

she broke it off with him, politely and slowly so he could save face.

He's pining for her and writing sad things on MySpace, but she's

merrily off in Oregon having a great life.

========================



back to now, still Sandra:



I think "old school" has literally to do with *school.* High school

kids weren't allowed to fraternize with midschool/jr. high kids.

College kids were discouraged (officially and unofficially) from

hanging out with high school kids. This created a VERY small window

of "appropriate" dating ages, and was based on school and NOT biology

or social sensibleness.



Sandra






















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Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that�s right for you.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

>>>I've had a brief e-mail exchange with a mom whose teenaged boy has an
interest in someone he met online, who is in her late 20s. At first
the mom was really angry and wanted to prevent their meeting, or meet
the young woman and do her bodily damage (those of you who are not the
mothers of teenaged boys, don't judge too harshly; I know the urge).>>>
I guess my first thoughts are, how old is the boy and has he ever been in a relationship before? That might make a difference in whether or not he understands how a relationship like that might work.
Although, I'm not the mom of a teenaged boy, I've been surprised with how relentless many girls are when pursuing a boy, so I do understand how moms would feel protective.


>>>what if you invite her over to meet her? Maybe she's great.>>>
That's what I would do. I think that many parents are wary of their kids meeting people in real life that they've met online. Chamille has met several of her friends online first. Her boyfriend is one of them, who she met through his best friend, which she'd talked with online for about a year before ever meeting him in person. Right now, at this very moment she is hanging out with 5 other kids, 3 of whom she initially met online. They all know each other now.
She had met an older guy online and then in person. I met him when she met him along with one of her friends. He was a nice guy and they did a lot of group activities like the movies or out to eat or hanging out at the mall. She was 14 and he was 20. She wasn't interested in dating him and made that clear. I had to let go of my own discomfort on that one. Afterall, Chamille is no school girl!

>>>Unschooled kids are more mature in many caes than others around them....
....But her interpersonal
abilities are beyond most school kids>>>
This is very true for Chamille too. Not that she's mature about everything or in every circumstance, but in general her interpersonal skills are beyond most school kids. Her relationship with her boyfriend fascinates me on many levels. They deal with things in a more mature fashion than a lot of adults I know. He's a year and a half younger than she is. His parents don't like that at all, they view him as a little kid, and he so isn't. They were very concerned with the age difference, even though, if she were in school, they'd only be a grade apart.


>>>School has given us a false picture and a false situation about
marriage ages. It makes no sense. >>>
Not just marriages, any relationship! It seems strange to me how parents treat teens in this regard, as if they aren't capable of having real relationships with a significant other. I do see many teens that can't, who treat all relationships in superficial ways, they play games with each other. Chamille was friends with a kid for a while, she really liked him in lots of ways, but found out that he was a gossip and played weird head games. She won't have anything to do with him anymore, she gave him 2 chances to stop what he was doing, then dumped him. He wasn't a boyfriend, he's gay and liked her boyfriend, which didn't go over well.
It makes more sense to me to be discriminating about who to hang out with or not, based on other things than age.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-= And personally, I don't believe "schooling" or "unschooling" has
anything to do with this situation; it is about wisdom gained through
lessons learned that do not present themselves early in life.=-

Everything on this list has to do with unschooling.

I think the current "wisdom" has to do with high school, which is why
I was asking for particular ideas and real experiences. I bet if
someone tracked marriages and divorces, LOTS of marriages are based on
having gone to the same high school. Not much basis for a relationship.

So it's easy for people to say WRONG! Don't! Millions of people
would say that, but I'm wanting people to say why and to be analytical
about the possibilities.

Ashton Kutcher married Demi Moore when he could have been the age to
date her daughters. They're together after several years.
Randy Travis has been with a woman nearly 20 years older since he was
a teen.

Probably most of us know of a case or two among friends or relatives.
Although it's much more common the other way around, historically,
there are historical arranged marriages in royal families of older
women and younger men, too. There's a ballad called "Lang a-Growin"
about one (the teenaged husband dies).

Instead of talking about it as a shocking horror, let's try to look at
it more dispassionately.

-=-If I were the mother of that boy, I would not let him date a woman
in her late 20's. -=-

That's quite easy to say but can be a relationship-destroying
decision, and I mean the relationship between the mother and son.

-=-Yes, unschooled kids may be more mature, but I would seriously
consider the motives of a grown woman in her late 20's interested in a
boy (and yes, he is still a boy) in his teens. -=-

I seriously consider the motives of ANY person in any relationship,
don't you?

-=-There is a HUGE difference in emotional maturity between a male
teenager and a female in her late twenties, regardless how mature the
teenager might be. -=-

I disagree with this as a statement. I don't want to turn this into a
one-on-one discussion, but from my own experience I know VERY many
grown women who have no maturity to speak of, and many (MANY) teenaged
boys. Of those, the most mature by far are the unschooled boys I know.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

>>>If I were the mother of that boy, I would not let him date a woman in her late 20's. Yes, unschooled kids may be more mature, but I would seriously consider the motives of a grown woman in her late 20's interested in a boy (and yes, he is still a boy) in his teens. There is a HUGE difference in emotional maturity between a male teenager and a female in her late twenties, regardless how mature the teenager might be.>>>

While that may be true, and wondering what the motives are, crossed my mind too, but how would a parent prevent it from happening if the teen was seriously intent on doing it? Wouldn't it be better to actually meet the person and discuss this stuff in person, in an open and honest way?

>>>My opinion is skewed from a (almost) personal experience; a very close friend of mine fell in love with a 30 year old woman when he was 17 years old. Albeit, he was an extremely mature and bright seventeen year old, but he was still 17 years old. When she became pregnant, he stood up and met his responsibilities. Sixteen months later, the older woman dumped him. Seems she was just a control freak who was looking for a sperm donor and he has now lived a nightmare the last seven years, fighting to be a part of his daughter's life. >>>

The moral of that story, is don't have unprotected sex, discuss birth control with your partner and all the what if scenarios of an accidental pregnancy. The very same thing could've happened to that 17 yr old with another 17 yr old. Some women would do that even with someone closer to their own age, be controlling and look for a sperm donor. While it may seem strange for an older woman to be interested in a much younger man, it doesn't necessarily mean that she is looking for someone to make babies with. Just for the record, my dad was 17, time wise, he would've been newly 17, not close to 18, when he got married to my mother who is 6 yrs older than he is, they had me a year later and they are still married.

>>>I'm not saying that the same situation couldn't happen with a woman his own age, but, generally speaking I find it odd that a grown woman would be romantically interested in, essentially, a child.>>>

Teenagers are not children. They are closer to being adults than children. They are fully reproductive mammals. Our culture keeps teens from growing up by keeping them locked away, in a holding pattern. Some of that was intentional to keep younger people out of the work force longer. It really wasn't that long ago that teens got married and had children and there are still cultures around the world that do that.

>>>I also don't believe that a teenager has the emotional maturity or foresight to detect when someone is using them or has ulterior motives. And personally, I don't believe "schooling" or "unschooling" has anything to do with this situation; it is about wisdom gained through lessons learned that do not present themselves early in life.>>>

Are you suggesting that if a parent tells their teenage son not to date an older woman and why, that he will learn his lessons on dating and life? That's a pretty typical way in which parents try to raise teens, tell them what to do and find ways to make them do what you tell them so that they will learn the proper ways in which to conduct their own lives when they turn the magic age of 18. It flies in the face of reality! Teens do what they want to do and find ways to get around their parent's rules by lying and being sneaky. The desire to be independent is very intense in teen years, and I really believe that it's that way for a reason!

That hasn't happened at my house at all. I don't tell my daughter what to do or how to conduct her life. We talk about what she could do or should do and why, but ultimately the decision is hers. She's learning everyday about how to behave in this world, she's gaining wisdom through living her life, and she's young still. The wisdom and lessons are presenting themselves right now, early in life!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Just for the record, my dad was 17, time wise, he would've been
newly 17, not close to 18, when he got married to my mother who is 6
yrs older than he is, they had me a year later and they are still
married. -=-

If you're willing to tell more, how'd they meet? Was he still in
school? What did their parents think of it all? If it was a year,
they didn't get married because she was pregnant, I guess. (Don't
tell if you don't want to.)

My parents were 17 and 22 and I was born five years into it. My mom
was the younger one, though. My dad was a friend of her brother's.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cynthia Hartley

>>Ashton Kutcher married Demi Moore when he could have been the age to

date her daughters. They're together after several years.>>



Yes, and my partner is 11 years older than I, however, our relationship formed when we were both adults, not one adult and one child.


>>Randy Travis has been with a woman nearly 20 years older since he was

a teen.>>


You hear about situations such as these, and it's an anomaly because it's the exception, not the rule.





>>That's quite easy to say but can be a relationship-destroying

decision, and I mean the relationship between the mother and son.>>


but, ultimately, isn't it a mother's job to protect her child? if a child is hell-bent on doing heroin and decides to end the relationship with his mother because she won't allow him to destroy himself, isn't that, then, the choice he makes? or, in order to save the "relationship" should the mother just back off and let her child do as he sees fit.



>>I seriously consider the motives of ANY person in any relationship,

don't you?>>


absolutely, but an adult has the experience and wisdom to analyze and weigh the motives and outcomes of being romantically involved with another person; a child does not.




>>I disagree with this as a statement. I don't want to turn this into a

one-on-one discussion, but from my own experience I know VERY many

grown women who have no maturity to speak of, and many (MANY) teenaged

boys. Of those, the most mature by far are the unschooled boys I know. >>


agreed, however, I was speaking of emotional maturity, not behavioral. on the whole, teenage boys are much less emotionally mature than adult woman simply because they lack experience.



Cyndi




















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Ed Wendell

This was a long time ago - but my grandpa was 11 years older than my grandma - they seemed happy - never knew them to be unhappy with one another ever and I spent a huge part of my childhood with them as we lived next door. Always laughing and playful as a couple till the end. He was 27, she was 16 when they married !!! He actually outlived her by two years - he was 98.



Lisa W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

As to "not letting" or the age of the son, this is from the first e-
mail:

"My son is turning 19 in November. He has been unschooled since 2nd
grade, he still lives at home. He has been looking for a job and wants
to go to college soon. He just wants to save a little money first. He
is a great kid, always has been."

He knows the young woman from online.
"He met a girl online, this is the first "girlfriend" for him. He
went over cell phone minutes that's how I found about her. I'm ok with
the higher bill, stuff happens. What I have a problem with is the fact
that the "girl" is 28. I really don't want it to cause a wedge between
my son me but it already has to some degree."

I don't know if they've met in person or just talked on the phone.

Just as a comparison: This woman met someone online, maybe through a
game or something, I don't know. They've communicated online and by
phone. So far no diseases or pregnancies or theft of money or other
crazy weirdness. That's a strong thought for me. I have a younger
cousin who, by the time she was 28, had five children by five
different men, was a drug addict and alcoholic. She was a grandmother
at 32. THAT is crazy. Meeting someone younger (maybe she didn't
know he was younger from the early context of meeting; that can
happen easily with gaming, if it was gaming) is not a sin. It's not a
horror.

Sandra

Cynthia Hartley

>>While that may be true, and wondering what the motives are, crossed my mind too, but how would a parent prevent it from happening if the teen was seriously intent on doing it? Wouldn't it be better to actually meet the person and discuss this stuff in person, in an open and honest way? >>


of course, it can't be stopped if the child is determined to make it happen, but if I were that parent I would make sure that it was known that I did not approve and would do what I could to stop it from happening. Meeting the person to discuss the situation in an "open and honest way" only suggests to the child that the situation is okay with you and that you are giving your approval. I MIGHT meet separately with the woman to try to discover her motives and let her know that I absolutely did not approve, but to that extent, only. Side note: when I was 16 I went on a couple of dates with a man who was 22 years old. My mother believed that it would be better to "actually meet the person and discuss this stuff in person"; she did and it only confirmed in my mind that she was giving her blessing to the relationship, when, in reality, she was feeling the opposite.



>>Teenagers are not children. They are closer to being adults than children. They are fully reproductive mammals. Our culture keeps teens from growing up by keeping them locked away, in a holding pattern. Some of that was intentional to keep younger people out of the work force longer. It really wasn't that long ago that teens got married and had children and there are still cultures around the world that do that.>>


sorry, but they are, indeed, children. many girls aged 13 and 14 (teenagers) have not even begun menstruating. Seriously?!?!?! It would be okay with you if a 13 year old teenager was having a sexual relationship with an adult in their 20's? You really believe they are physically and mentally ready for that? I know 20 year olds who aren't ready for it. Yes, in times past teens got married and had children and in other cultures still do, however, that was done because the life expectancy rate was/is not that long. You were a geezer in your 40's so it made sense to begin breeding at 12, 13, 14.




>>Are you suggesting that if a parent tells their teenage son not to date an older woman and why, that he will learn his lessons on dating and life? That's a pretty typical way in which parents try to raise teens, tell them what to do and find ways to make them do what you tell them so that they will learn the proper ways in which to conduct their own lives when they turn the magic age of 18. It flies in the face of reality! Teens do what they want to do and find ways to get around their parent's rules by lying and being sneaky. The desire to be independent is very intense in teen years, and I really believe that it's that way for a reason! >>


no, i'm suggesting that when the teenage son lives a few years on his own, supporting himself and finding out who he really is, then he will learn life lessons on dating and so forth. The parent cannot do this. My whole argument is this: time. time is the essential teacher. Only when you realize you don't know anything, then you are starting to learn. To let a person who has virtual no independant life experience take upon a relationship that will be far beyond his years and has potential life-changing consequences (i.e. a child produced from the union) with your blessing, is irresponsible.

















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carnationsgalore

> Teenagers are not children.

I've been trying to get my ex-husband to understand this for the past few years and my dd is 17 right now. Last year, at age 16, she was dating an 18 year old. Her dad and stepmom freaked out saying she was still a child and the guy was an adult. She couldn't understand how 2 years could make such a difference between child and adult. I know from a legal point that such a relationship could be problematic. We hear stories of 18+ people getting in trouble for have intimate relationships with teens under 18. She's now dating a 19 year old and hasn't told her dad. She tells me she cannot trust him because she knows how he will react. I am very thankful I have a trusting relationship with her.

Beth

Sandra Dodd

-=->>Randy Travis has been with a woman nearly 20 years older since he
was a teen.>>

-=-You hear about situations such as these, and it's an anomaly
because it's the exception, not the rule. =-

"The rule" has something to do with a boy dating a girl a year or two
younger, who goes to his school.
Unschoolers aren't living by "the rule" in very many ways. So as
there IS no "rule" here, what we're trying to discuss are
possibilities and realities and "why not?" and "what if?"

-=->>That's quite easy to say but can be a relationship-destroying
decision, and I mean the relationship between the mother and son.>>
"but, ultimately, isn't it a mother's job to protect her child?"

To protect a three year old from falling into a fire, sure.
To protect a young man from falling in love? No one has ever
succeeded in doing that ever, not once, ever.

-=- if a child is hell-bent on doing heroin and decides to end the
relationship with his mother because she won't allow him to destroy
himself, isn't that, then, the choice he makes? -=-

No. You're talking about the mother making an ultimatum. I don't
think teens who want to use heroin ask their moms.

-=- or, in order to save the "relationship" should the mother just
back off and let her child do as he sees fit.-=-

Okay, now I really do want to know: How old are your children? How
long have you been unschooling? You joined the list yesterday. How
old are your children?

-=-agreed, however, I was speaking of emotional maturity, not
behavioral. on the whole, teenage boys are much less emotionally
mature than adult woman simply because they lack experience.-=-

There's not a difference between "emotional maturity" and "behavioral
maturity." I think you made behavioral maturity up. <g> Some people
(many and maybe most) are emotionally stunted and damaged, but they're
not unschoolers, in my experience.

There are many adults who don't have the experience my children have
in dealing with "the real world," or with relationships with friends
and significant others. My children aren't "children," though, so
much. They're 17, 20 and 23.

They're not hypothetical people; they're real, whole, full,
thoughtful, responsible people.
We're not trying to set policy here, we're trying to advice a mom on
how she might see the situation in light of her own relationship (not
"relationship" but REAL, living, you-don't-get-another-chance
RELATIONSHIP) with her son, and on him as a real, whole person.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

carnationsgalore

> To let a person who has virtual no independant life experience
> take upon a relationship that will be far beyond his years and
> has potential life-changing consequences (i.e. a child produced
> from the union) with your blessing, is irresponsible.

Oh my. I believe that statement is a bit harsh. We can't know how any relationship might turn out. What about teens who produce a child together? That is also a life-changing consequence. Earlier in this post, you were talking about a 13/14 yr. old teen dating a person in their 20's. Is that really a common occurrence? I believe that when we start throwing out extreme examples, we are becoming too defensive to hear other opinions. You are speaking in very general terms and I don't understand how that is relevant and/or helpful to unschooling and parenting unschooled teens.

Beth

Sandra Dodd

-=-We hear stories of 18+ people getting in trouble for have intimate
relationships with teens under 18.=-

We hear all KINDS of bullshit stories, so when Holly became interested
in her brother's friend, I checked the laws. It would have been legal
for them to have sex. My first concern was whether, if Holly did
decide to move into the relationship, she would be endangering this
guy. Would she have the opportunity (without knowing, without being
aware of the lifelong consequences) to set him up to be seen as a sex
offender if ANYone complained? In some cases it wouldn't help at all
if the girl and the parents all said "No, it's okay." There ARE
different laws different places, and if a law is violated that way and
it's reported by someone else, it's not up to "the victim" to press
charges or not. So the legal danger in that situation was much more
to the older male than to Holly. And we checked before they had so
much as held hands, before we knew if it had any go-ahead in it or
not, because I didn't want to encourage or condone something that
would be a legal danger to either of them.

I talked to a friend who's an assistant DA to get a clarification on
the law in New Mexico, which was worded in an ambiguous way. He said
it was ambiguous intentionally, but he knew that the instructions to
jurors defined it the more liberal (younger) way, as the beginning of
16, not the end of 16. And in some states there's a relative age
range that moves along with them, something about the difference in
age. Not everywhere.

And probably in all states, any parent who said "yeah sure" about a 14
year old with anyone much older than that would be being VERY
irresponsible, legally and morally. But kids rarely ask permission.
And the age difference thing has much to do with school. And kids in
school are having sex at school, in cars, on school trips, at
someone's house while they're ditching school. That's gone on since
before any of us were born.

With unschoolers, though it seems very common for kids to talk to
their parents, because they trust their parents' opinions. And
that's because the parents have in most cases worked for years to move
from a kneejerk world of "NO! I said no" to actually looking at things
before they say no.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I have always date much older man.
My first serious boyfriend was 25 when I was 17.
I even spent a few months traveling together in the US with him.
We were really good friends and we are still in touch to this day.
My relationships where always with men around 10 years my senior.
My first husband was 13 years older.
Brian is probably one of the youngest <BWG> only 4 years difference between us.
My mom has been in a very good relationship with a man that is 13 years younger. She is 69 and he is
56 ( my first husbands age!)
He says he has an old soul. They like the same music, movies, books. They have a lot in common.
Her last boyfriend before him was over 20 years older than her. He passed away a few years ago.
They too had a lot in common and a lot of fun together.  He was very artistic like she is.He was a young soul!
My mom suported me when I was 17 and dating an older man. It was great to have her as a friend.
She could have made it hard for me to date this guy but she backed me up. If anything came up I talked to her. Wouldn't you want your child to come to you when they needed??

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bmantovani

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> As to "not letting" or the age of the son, this is from the first e-
> mail:
>
> "My son is turning 19 in November"
------------

I was going to ask how old is the son. "Teenager" is vague, it can be 13 or 19, that's a huge difference.

When I was 27, just before meeting my husband, I dated a 22 year old. It didn't work out, partly because I was looking for a more permanent relationship and he wasn't. But I would say I look and act a bit younger than my age, and I have often been attracted to younger men (my husband is 2 years younger than me.)

I have a friend who dated a 19 year old when she was 28 (or maybe even a year or two older.) They dated for a while, and then broke up, but it wasn't a case of her taking advantage of him, by any means. I think the man she is married to now is also a few years younger than her (5 years or so) and they have two daughters and are happily married.

Some women are attracted to younger men. And meeting online is very very common. I would give this woman the benefit of the doubt.


--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> One awesome movie comes to mind:
> Harold and Maude

-----------
that's funny, I was thinking about that movie too :-)


Bea

Robin Bentley

>>> Teenagers are not children. They are closer to being adults than
>>> children. They are fully reproductive mammals. Our culture keeps
>>> teens from growing up by keeping them locked away, in a holding
>>> pattern. Some of that was intentional to keep younger people out
>>> of the work force longer. It really wasn't that long ago that
>>> teens got married and had children and there are still cultures
>>> around the world that do that.>>
>
>
> sorry, but they are, indeed, children. many girls aged 13 and 14
> (teenagers) have not even begun menstruating. Seriously?!?!?! It
> would be okay with you if a 13 year old teenager was having a sexual
> relationship with an adult in their 20's? You really believe they
> are physically and mentally ready for that? I know 20 year olds who
> aren't ready for it. Yes, in times past teens got married and had
> children and in other cultures still do, however, that was done
> because the life expectancy rate was/is not that long. You were a
> geezer in your 40's so it made sense to begin breeding at 12, 13, 14.

But this isn't the situation at all. This 13 year old having a
relationship with an adult in their twenties is hypothetical. The 17
year old and an adult in her late 20's (how old that is, I'm not sure)
is the situation. The mom knows her son pretty well. She's asking for
help in her thinking.

Painting all teens with the broad brush of "they don't have enough
experience" vs all adults with "they have enough experience" is too
much generalization, for me.

My 14 year old daughter is barely ready for a relationship with a
similarly-aged kid, let alone an older person. *I* know that about
her. *She* talks to me about it. And she's having too much fun playing
Pokemon and World of Warcraft to be really want any kind of
relationship other than friends with the same interests.

I'm pretty sure the mom knows whether her son is even close to being
ready for a relationship. Maybe she's figuring out how to overcome her
deep biases about age. Age isn't always the predictor of maturity, nor
is experience. Some adults make the same immature mistakes over and
over again - experience didn't help them at all.
>
>
>>> Are you suggesting that if a parent tells their teenage son not to
>>> date an older woman and why, that he will learn his lessons on
>>> dating and life? That's a pretty typical way in which parents try
>>> to raise teens, tell them what to do and find ways to make them do
>>> what you tell them so that they will learn the proper ways in
>>> which to conduct their own lives when they turn the magic age of
>>> 18. It flies in the face of reality! Teens do what they want to
>>> do and find ways to get around their parent's rules by lying and
>>> being sneaky. The desire to be independent is very intense in
>>> teen years, and I really believe that it's that way for a
>>> reason! >>
>
>
> no, i'm suggesting that when the teenage son lives a few years on
> his own, supporting himself and finding out who he really is, then
> he will learn life lessons on dating and so forth. The parent cannot
> do this. My whole argument is this: time. time is the essential
> teacher. Only when you realize you don't know anything, then you
> are starting to learn. To let a person who has virtual no
> independant life experience take upon a relationship that will be
> far beyond his years and has potential life-changing consequences
> (i.e. a child produced from the union) with your blessing, is
> irresponsible.
>

So a teenager should move out to learn all this stuff on his own,
*then* he can make these decisions, and that's the only way? I think
most unschooling parents of teens would heartily disagree. They have
enormous influence on their kids' lives, though they don't make
decisions for them. Unschooled kids appreciate their parents being
part of their lives.

You seem to be suggesting that one should just say "have at it" to
their kid with no advice, no talking about it, no help. Unschoolers
don't do that. How long have you unschooled your kids? How would you
talk with them and help them?

The relationship you wrote about as a warning - was that between a
peacefully-parented teen and an adult? Was that child raised in
mainstream ways? It would be good to know, because it's like comparing
apples and oranges - they're both fruit, but grown on different trees.
>

Robin B.

Jenny Cyphers

-=-Just for the record, my dad was 17, time wise, he would've been
newly 17, not close to 18, when he got married to my mother who is 6
yrs older than he is, they had me a year later and they are still
married. -=-

>>>If you're willing to tell more, how'd they meet? Was he still in
school? What did their parents think of it all? If it was a year,
they didn't get married because she was pregnant, I guess. (Don't
tell if you don't want to.)>>>

He wasn't in school, he had just graduated, he would've turned 17 in March and he graduated in May and moved out, if he hadn't already moved out, that part is iffy and not talked about. His parents weren't great people, nor did they give him a very wonderful childhood (extreme poverty). He was already used to working, since he started working when he was maybe 10 or so, just to have shoes to wear. He was living in a hippy commune in Portland OR. My mother was traveling through with a friend and they stopped there for the night and I guess it was love at first site because my mom came back about a week or two later to stay.

His parents had to sign the paperwork letting him get married. I'm not sure if they approved or not, but they did sign the papers. They were already used to him doing what he wanted and not being around much. They didn't get married because of me. My dad wanted to have kids right away and he kind of pressured my mom, who really wasn't ready to have babies yet.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cynthia Hartley

>>"The rule" has something to do with a boy dating a girl a year or two

younger, who goes to his school.

Unschoolers aren't living by "the rule" in very many ways. So as

there IS no "rule" here, what we're trying to discuss are

possibilities and realities and "why not?" and "what if?"<<


you lost me on that one...





>>To protect a three year old from falling into a fire, sure.

To protect a young man from falling in love? No one has ever

succeeded in doing that ever, not once, ever.<<


yes, that is true, and I don't believe that any loving parent would ever deny their child of true happiness. However, there is something that is not sitting well about this situation with the mother and it is not uncalled for this woman to act on her instincts to protect her child.





>>No. You're talking about the mother making an ultimatum. I don't

think teens who want to use heroin ask their moms.<<


got me there <grin>





>>Okay, now I really do want to know: How old are your children? How

long have you been unschooling? You joined the list yesterday. How

old are your children?<<


I have one child, she's five years old and I've been unschooling her since she was born. Does my newbie status make my opinions less valid and unwelcome?







>>There's not a difference between "emotional maturity" and "behavioral

maturity." I think you made behavioral maturity up. <g> Some people

(many and maybe most) are emotionally stunted and damaged, but they're

not unschoolers, in my experience.<<


yes, there is a behavioral maturity (http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ086548&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ086548)
I was a research psychologist by trade before having my child =)


yes, and therein lies the problem. unschoolers are much more secure, emotionally stable and mature, however, when they are on the dating circuit, they, most likely, will be involved with someone who lived Lord of the Flies for 12 years and is just now coming into themselves. as my father used to say, "it's not you i'm worried about, it's everyone else".




>>They're not hypothetical people; they're real, whole, full,

thoughtful, responsible people.

We're not trying to set policy here, we're trying to advice a mom on

how she might see the situation in light of her own relationship (not

"relationship" but REAL, living, you-don't-get-another-chance

RELATIONSHIP) with her son, and on him as a real, whole person.<<


and I do apologize for taking this into the hypothetical. from now on, i'll refrain from comment until the whole of the situation is realized. my entire input to this situation was based around the word "teenager". i jumped the gun to assume "teenager" = young child. Had I known the son in question was 19 years old, I would have sang an entirely different tune, if one at all.

Cyndi







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-"The rule" has something to do with a boy dating a girl a year or
two younger, who goes to his school. Unschoolers aren't living by
"the rule" in very many ways. So as there IS no "rule" here, what
we're trying to discuss are possibilities and realities and "why
not?" and "what if?"<<

-=-you lost me on that one...-=-

Then you probably need to read some more before you post.
http://sandradodd.com/yes
http://sandradodd.com/rules

You're writing about rules, on an unschooling list, with the
assumption that when you say "the rule" it will mean something useful
in a discussion like this. It's important to be clear in your writing
in any discussion.

-=-yes, that is true, and I don't believe that any loving parent would
ever deny their child of true happiness. However, there is something
that is not sitting well about this situation with the mother and it
is not uncalled for this woman to act on her instincts to protect her
child.-=-

She asked for ideas and discussion, not for "support" or defense or
justification.

-=-I have one child, she's five years old and I've been unschooling
her since she was born. Does my newbie status make my opinions less
valid and unwelcome?-=-

It makes them the opinions of someone without much experience
unschooling, and with no experience being the mother of a teenager.
So if "valid" means from the point of view of an experienced
unschooler, then yes, your opinions are of necessity less valid.
They're not unwelcome, but it's good to let people know what your
experience is if you're going to offer to fix their car or set a
broken bone or advise about dealing with young adult unschoolers.
Someone without any children at all might have the best idea of the
day, but going on about what IS and what MUST BE when your only child
is five is quite a bit much for your second day on the list.

People come for unschooling ideas, so please qualify your statements
with "my oldest is five, but..." when the question involves older
children. If I had never had a five year old and you asked about
five year olds, I would say "My kids were all born ten years old," or
"...were adopted as teens, but..." Most of the unschoolers here
have had five year olds. Many still do. <g> So if you ask for ideas
about five year olds, the odds are you'll be getting a great quantity
of suggestions from people with lots of success behind them.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Here are the two posts I help pending finding out the experience of
the poster. They were both from Cyndi, who joined the list yesterday
and called me a control freak on the side.

-=-Now with this clarification, I don't see the harm in meeting the
woman whom the son is interested in, or even in their pursuing a
relationship. When presented as a "teenager", I was picturing a 14, 15
year old. In my opinion, a 19 year old is hardly a teenager, yet,
actually, an adult.-=-

In response to Beth having written "Oh my. I believe that statement is
a bit harsh. We can't know how any relationship might turn out. What
about teens who produce a child together? That is also a life-
changing consequence. Earlier in this post, you were talking about a
13/14 yr. old teen dating a person in their 20's. Is that really a
common occurrence? I believe that when we start throwing out extreme
examples, we are becoming too defensive to hear other opinions. You
are speaking in very general terms and I don't understand how that is
relevant and/or helpful to unschooling and parenting unschooled
teens." the response was:

-=-You are right, and perhaps I should have waited to find the actual
age of the teenager involved before responding. Only given the word
"teenager" my mind automatically drifted to a younger age, 13 and 14,
as that is the predominant teenage age of the children in my life.
Given that the person in question is actually 19, and not a child, my
response would have been much different had I known that earlier on.-=-

The reason I didn't give more details in the first place was that it
was a philosophical question being asked in general on purpose so
that the principles would be discussed rather than the particulars.

Anyone whose mind is drifting automatically should be much more
careful when writing about things that really do affect real people in
the moment. He was "presented as a 'teenager'" because he's a
teenager. It can't just turn to "oh, never mind" because of a few
years, can it? That one day it's horrible and the next day it's "no
harm"? Clarity, please. Compassion.

Careful thought and clear writing are valuable here and everywhere
else in life.

Sandra

carnationsgalore

> I think "old school" has literally to do with *school.* High school
> kids weren't allowed to fraternize with midschool/jr. high kids.
> College kids were discouraged (officially and unofficially) from
> hanging out with high school kids. This created a VERY small window
> of "appropriate" dating ages, and was based on school and NOT
> biology or social sensibleness.

This "old school" comment in the original post leaped out at me. My first thought was what "old school" meant. Then I supposed it was because the guy was younger than the lady. So I wonder if the OP would feel the same way about the situation if she had a daughter instead of a son who was dating someone older. It's a double standard and I try to be conscious of those, even when I miss the mark sometimes. I have 3 children ages 11, 13, and 17.

Perhaps age isn't the only concern in this situation? Can the online aspect cause concern? I was 25, almost divorced, with a 2 year old child when I met a man that was 11 years older than me. We met online. My mom totally freaked out. She was concerned with both the age difference and the fact that we met online. So there I was, an adult with previous relationship experiences, and my mom was still wary and giving me advice. Martin and I will celebrate our 14th wedding anniversary next month. :)

Beth

Robyn L. Coburn

> -=-Yes, unschooled kids may be more mature, but I would seriously
> consider the motives of a grown woman in her late 20's interested in a
> boy (and yes, he is still a boy) in his teens. -=-

I got that it is the guy who had expressed the interest. Am I wrong?

Perhaps the lady is friendly and flattered but not much more, or thinking of
it going further than internet conversations.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-I got that it is the guy who had expressed the interest. Am I
wrong?-=-

Not sure. I wrote to the mom and asked if she cares to clarify.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<< many girls aged 13 and 14 (teenagers) have not even begun menstruating.
Seriously?!?!?! It would be okay with you if a 13 year old teenager was
having a sexual relationship with an adult in their 20's? >>>>

We aren't talking about someone who is 13. Nor are we talking about heroin
and drug addiction.

We aren't talking about a sexual relationship (yet).

We are talking about the beginnings of interest between two people (and now
I see that the boy is 19 not 16 unless that's a typo) who have yet to meet
in person (I think). They might not even have any chemistry if and when they
do meet.

I think going off on to near hysterical tangents isn't helping anyone's
clarity.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com