Nail biting
casa_divina
Hello to all,
I have noticed my 4 year old daughter biting her nails a lot over the last few months. At first, when she started, I thought it was a phase that would pass- like her older sister went through. Now though, it seems to be getting more frequent and I'm wondering what other unschooling families experiences have been with this habit.
I have always associated nail-biting as a nervous habit. Not sure where that comes from. But it makes me think of close friends I had in grammar school and high school that wished they could stop, but couldn't. They weren't even aware that they were doing it, and did not like the physical appearance of their bitten down nails. My best friend today of 17 years has that nail-bitten look and I have NEVER seen her bite her nails. She says she doesn't even know when she does it, let alone can she figure out how to stop.
When my 6 year old daughter starting biting her nails a few years ago, yep about the same age as my youngest who nail bites now, I was concerned that maybe I was missing something. I spoke with a very helpful counselor over the phone who suggested I try sleep-talking; talking to her while she's asleep to let her know that I am here for her if she has something stressful going on in her life that I don't know about. I did sleep-talk with her a few times and, low and behold, she stopped. Just like night and day.
These days, with my youngest daughter starting up with nail biting, I question my motives. I think the sleep-talking thing might work, but that would be me assuming that she is biting her nails due to some unknown stress. And honestly, in the wee hours of the night when I should be doing it, I forget. I only remember her nail biting when I see it throughout the day.
I am concerned for my daughter now, not so much because I think it is a bad habit (although I admit it is hard to shake that association), but because she is starting to hurt herself and often makes herself uncomfortable because she cannot seem to stop. A few months ago she used to also bite her toenails. I was concerned about that because we live rurally and keep chickens and other animals and sometimes the girls go outside barefoot, even though I ask them not to, explain the risks and always have a variety of shoes for them to wear, from flip flops to rubber boots. So the thought of her sticking her toe in her mouth at any moment really worried me.
Not too long after she started she got a really bad infected in-grown toe nail. It was painful, woke her up at night, we had to drain it because the pressure was so bad. It took a long time to heal but she got over it. We talked about how clipping those annoying hang nails and snagged ends is a safer way to go then biting them off. She was cured of biting her toe nails after that.
She continues to bite her finger nails. She often makes herself bleed and wants a bandaid because it hurts when she has bitten too far down the nail or has torn of a hang nail. I keep bandaids around the house and have bought more nail clippers to have handy when she finds an annoying nail. I have noticed that she will ask me every once in a while to clip an annoying nail, but most of the time she prefers to take care of it herself by biting it. I also offer to clip when I see her biting, sometimes she accepts sometimes she declines.
There are times when it is inconvenient as well. We will be transitioning from one thing to another (like hopping out of a taxi - we don't own a car and this happens alot!) and she will insist that we wait until she's finished biting her nail. We settle down to read sometimes at night, or watch a movie and I can't help but be aware of the almost manic way she attacks those nails during our quiet, mellow time. Honestly, it stresses me out.
We have been unschooling for a year now and I am interested in learning how I can better support my daughter during this time.
Thanks for your responses.
Molly in Ecuador
I have noticed my 4 year old daughter biting her nails a lot over the last few months. At first, when she started, I thought it was a phase that would pass- like her older sister went through. Now though, it seems to be getting more frequent and I'm wondering what other unschooling families experiences have been with this habit.
I have always associated nail-biting as a nervous habit. Not sure where that comes from. But it makes me think of close friends I had in grammar school and high school that wished they could stop, but couldn't. They weren't even aware that they were doing it, and did not like the physical appearance of their bitten down nails. My best friend today of 17 years has that nail-bitten look and I have NEVER seen her bite her nails. She says she doesn't even know when she does it, let alone can she figure out how to stop.
When my 6 year old daughter starting biting her nails a few years ago, yep about the same age as my youngest who nail bites now, I was concerned that maybe I was missing something. I spoke with a very helpful counselor over the phone who suggested I try sleep-talking; talking to her while she's asleep to let her know that I am here for her if she has something stressful going on in her life that I don't know about. I did sleep-talk with her a few times and, low and behold, she stopped. Just like night and day.
These days, with my youngest daughter starting up with nail biting, I question my motives. I think the sleep-talking thing might work, but that would be me assuming that she is biting her nails due to some unknown stress. And honestly, in the wee hours of the night when I should be doing it, I forget. I only remember her nail biting when I see it throughout the day.
I am concerned for my daughter now, not so much because I think it is a bad habit (although I admit it is hard to shake that association), but because she is starting to hurt herself and often makes herself uncomfortable because she cannot seem to stop. A few months ago she used to also bite her toenails. I was concerned about that because we live rurally and keep chickens and other animals and sometimes the girls go outside barefoot, even though I ask them not to, explain the risks and always have a variety of shoes for them to wear, from flip flops to rubber boots. So the thought of her sticking her toe in her mouth at any moment really worried me.
Not too long after she started she got a really bad infected in-grown toe nail. It was painful, woke her up at night, we had to drain it because the pressure was so bad. It took a long time to heal but she got over it. We talked about how clipping those annoying hang nails and snagged ends is a safer way to go then biting them off. She was cured of biting her toe nails after that.
She continues to bite her finger nails. She often makes herself bleed and wants a bandaid because it hurts when she has bitten too far down the nail or has torn of a hang nail. I keep bandaids around the house and have bought more nail clippers to have handy when she finds an annoying nail. I have noticed that she will ask me every once in a while to clip an annoying nail, but most of the time she prefers to take care of it herself by biting it. I also offer to clip when I see her biting, sometimes she accepts sometimes she declines.
There are times when it is inconvenient as well. We will be transitioning from one thing to another (like hopping out of a taxi - we don't own a car and this happens alot!) and she will insist that we wait until she's finished biting her nail. We settle down to read sometimes at night, or watch a movie and I can't help but be aware of the almost manic way she attacks those nails during our quiet, mellow time. Honestly, it stresses me out.
We have been unschooling for a year now and I am interested in learning how I can better support my daughter during this time.
Thanks for your responses.
Molly in Ecuador
Sandra Dodd
To everything in the post I was thinking "normal; don't worry," but
this struck me as just wrong:
-=-There are times when it is inconvenient as well. We will be
transitioning from one thing to another (like hopping out of a taxi -
we don't own a car and this happens alot!) and she will insist that we
wait until she's finished biting her nail.-=-
I would just say no. I would pick her up and get her out of the taxi,
if it were me.
It's one thing to have a little personal irritating habit, but to ask
other people to wait while I finished picking a scab or picking my
nose or something would be way, way rude. And when it involves
someone who's at work, either making or losing money while I was
saying "Wait, I'm doing something disgusting" that's not at all cool.
Holly has bit her nails, bitten her toenails, and as she got older she
figured out her own ways not to do it, because she didn't want to do it.
If you create an adversarial relationship and make it about your
motherly stress, you make a situation where you own her nails and her
thoughts, and that's bad. If it's set up so that you win if she
doesn't bite nails, and she wins if she does bite them, then you both
lose bigtime.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this struck me as just wrong:
-=-There are times when it is inconvenient as well. We will be
transitioning from one thing to another (like hopping out of a taxi -
we don't own a car and this happens alot!) and she will insist that we
wait until she's finished biting her nail.-=-
I would just say no. I would pick her up and get her out of the taxi,
if it were me.
It's one thing to have a little personal irritating habit, but to ask
other people to wait while I finished picking a scab or picking my
nose or something would be way, way rude. And when it involves
someone who's at work, either making or losing money while I was
saying "Wait, I'm doing something disgusting" that's not at all cool.
Holly has bit her nails, bitten her toenails, and as she got older she
figured out her own ways not to do it, because she didn't want to do it.
If you create an adversarial relationship and make it about your
motherly stress, you make a situation where you own her nails and her
thoughts, and that's bad. If it's set up so that you win if she
doesn't bite nails, and she wins if she does bite them, then you both
lose bigtime.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
we don't own a car and this happens alot!) and she will insist that we
wait until she's finished biting her nail.-=-
I would just say no. I would pick her up and get her out of the taxi,
if it were me.
It's one thing to have a little personal irritating habit, but to ask
other people to wait while I finished picking a scab or picking my
nose or something would be way, way rude.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wait until she's finished biting her nail.-=-
I would just say no. I would pick her up and get her out of the taxi,
if it were me.
It's one thing to have a little personal irritating habit, but to ask
other people to wait while I finished picking a scab or picking my
nose or something would be way, way rude.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>perhaps i missed this, but what is her reaction when/if you say no to waiting for her to finish? does she roll with it pretty well?
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=perhaps i missed this, but what is her reaction when/if you say no
to waiting for her to finish?-=-
How does that really matter, though, when it touches on people outside
the family? If she's at the counter at the bank and they say "next"
and the daughter says "Wait, I need to finish biting my nails," or it
they're waiting in the line at a theatre or a ski lift or they're at
church for communion?
When the nail biting is in private, then it's about the child's
feelings. When it's in public and she's asking others to put their
lives, courtesy and livelihoods on pause, it's a whole different issue.
Some kids pick their noses a lot, or play with their genitalia.
That's one question in private, and another entirely at a picnic.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to waiting for her to finish?-=-
How does that really matter, though, when it touches on people outside
the family? If she's at the counter at the bank and they say "next"
and the daughter says "Wait, I need to finish biting my nails," or it
they're waiting in the line at a theatre or a ski lift or they're at
church for communion?
When the nail biting is in private, then it's about the child's
feelings. When it's in public and she's asking others to put their
lives, courtesy and livelihoods on pause, it's a whole different issue.
Some kids pick their noses a lot, or play with their genitalia.
That's one question in private, and another entirely at a picnic.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
-=perhaps i missed this, but what is her reaction when/if you say no
to waiting for her to finish?-=-
How does that really matter, though, when it touches on people outside
the family? If she's at the counter at the bank and they say "next"
and the daughter says "Wait, I need to finish biting my nails," or it
they're waiting in the line at a theatre or a ski lift or they're at
church for communion?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the reason i asked is because if the child is fairly easily redirected then great - that's easy. but if there's an *intense* attachment and huge reaction to not having agreement to wait for her to finish, that might be a signal that there is something else going on with her that needs more sensitivity...
lyla
Recent Activity
a.. 24New Members
Visit Your Group
Give Back
Yahoo! for Good
Get inspired
by a good cause.
Y! Toolbar
Get it Free!
easy 1-click access
to your groups.
Yahoo! Groups
Start a group
in 3 easy steps.
Connect with others.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to waiting for her to finish?-=-
How does that really matter, though, when it touches on people outside
the family? If she's at the counter at the bank and they say "next"
and the daughter says "Wait, I need to finish biting my nails," or it
they're waiting in the line at a theatre or a ski lift or they're at
church for communion?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the reason i asked is because if the child is fairly easily redirected then great - that's easy. but if there's an *intense* attachment and huge reaction to not having agreement to wait for her to finish, that might be a signal that there is something else going on with her that needs more sensitivity...
lyla
Recent Activity
a.. 24New Members
Visit Your Group
Give Back
Yahoo! for Good
Get inspired
by a good cause.
Y! Toolbar
Get it Free!
easy 1-click access
to your groups.
Yahoo! Groups
Start a group
in 3 easy steps.
Connect with others.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
my DD is 9 yo & often has her fingers in her mouth. she goes 2 OT for sensory sensitivity <owie cloths> ?& found out that some people have 2 have something in mouth 2 think. they sell? a rope cord w/ a rubber whistle looking "chewie". they come in different colors & cost $1.?? some people chew sugarless gum.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
>last few months. At first, when she started, I thought it was a phase
> I have noticed my 4 year old daughter biting her nails a lot over the
that would pass- like her older sister went through. Now though, it
seems to be getting more frequent and I'm wondering what other
unschooling families experiences have been with this habit.
>If it is a nervous habit, perhaps she would be able to do something else
> I have always associated nail-biting as a nervous habit.
with her hands. It's possible you could find a little thing that she
could hold onto, roll between her fingers, a ring, or a bracelet, or
something to fidget with instead of biting.
Having said that, sometimes it isn't a nervous habit. Margaux started
biting her nails as soon as she had 2 top and 2 bottom teeth, just
barely showing. I was never able to clip her nails as a baby because of
that. When she was really tiny, I'd do it when she was sleeping, but as
soon as those teeth came in, she'd get to them first. She's been biting
her nails every since, fingers and toes. I help her keep her feet
clean, even if it means washing them myself with a warm wash rag. She's
almost 8, and I don't see this changing anytime soon.
Instead of focusing on changing her habit, I help her to remember to
keep her hands and feet clean.
>She was cured of biting her toe nails after that.Being cured suggests that she was ill to begin with. Don't make nail
>
biting a disease. It's a habit, a grooming habit if you will. There
are other ways to keep nails trimmed, but nail biting is one way in
which it's done. I was a nail biter and thumb sucker as a child. It
was physically uncomfortable to have any white parts of nail growing out
beyond where the nail was stuck down onto the skin. I really couldn't
handle that sensation and clippers and nail scissors wouldn't get that
close, the way I needed it to be. By the time I was about 14, I decided
on my own to stop biting my nails and let them grow. I dealt with the
physical discomfort because it was my choice to do so, I pushed past it
and found a way to let my nails grow. I keep my nails trimmed. I don't
like them long, but I'm also happy that I don't get hang nails anymore
like I did when I bit my nails.
casa_divina
> If you create an adversarial relationship and make it about yourYes, that is why I found such peace when I stopped mentioning it, and just concentrated on actions like having clippers available and helping her wash her hands (and feet, when she was biting toe nails). I don't want to shame her which is why I want to respond consciously and brought it up for discussion.
> motherly stress, you make a situation where you own her nails and her
> thoughts, and that's bad. If it's set up so that you win if she
> doesn't bite nails, and she wins if she does bite them, then you both
> lose bigtime.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
It's nice to hear that there are people that have stopped when they have wanted to. But I do want to get to the place where it doesn't matter to me whether she stops or not.
Molly in Ecuador
casa_divina
--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...> wrote:
Sabina can be extremely stubborn. So when I say "okay, hop out now please" and she resists, I know that reaching to pick her up against her will can make a difficult situation. Sometimes she is easy-going and will either finish up really quick or just drop it and move on. I need to read every situation because it depends on her reaction.
I'm wondering, Sandra, what you think about spending an extra 30 seconds or one minute in the cab so she can "do her thing" (now, it's not really about her biting her nails, but more about not being forced into anything) and then happily hopping out then being worried about the cab driver losing money or becoming impatient and picking her up which could mean even more time in the stopped car because she's squirming or yelling.
Molly in Ecaudor
(but soon to be in San Diego for the Good Vibes Conference!)
>Hi Lyla,
> we don't own a car and this happens alot!) and she will insist that we
> wait until she's finished biting her nail.-=-
>
> I would just say no. I would pick her up and get her out of the taxi,
> if it were me.
> It's one thing to have a little personal irritating habit, but to ask
> other people to wait while I finished picking a scab or picking my
> nose or something would be way, way rude.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> perhaps i missed this, but what is her reaction when/if you say no to waiting for her to finish? does she roll with it pretty well?
> lyla
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sabina can be extremely stubborn. So when I say "okay, hop out now please" and she resists, I know that reaching to pick her up against her will can make a difficult situation. Sometimes she is easy-going and will either finish up really quick or just drop it and move on. I need to read every situation because it depends on her reaction.
I'm wondering, Sandra, what you think about spending an extra 30 seconds or one minute in the cab so she can "do her thing" (now, it's not really about her biting her nails, but more about not being forced into anything) and then happily hopping out then being worried about the cab driver losing money or becoming impatient and picking her up which could mean even more time in the stopped car because she's squirming or yelling.
Molly in Ecaudor
(but soon to be in San Diego for the Good Vibes Conference!)
casa_divina
>So do you think suggesting that this be done in private is helpful? My older daughter is seriously into picking her nose any time, any place. I feel like I've been nagging her about. I try to just offer her a tissue or ask her to stop when we are with other people, but I wonder if suggesting that she take of it in private would be helpful.
> When the nail biting is in private, then it's about the child's
> feelings. When it's in public and she's asking others to put their
> lives, courtesy and livelihoods on pause, it's a whole different issue.
>
> Some kids pick their noses a lot, or play with their genitalia.
> That's one question in private, and another entirely at a picnic.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Molly in Ecuador
casa_divina
>I help her keep her feet
> If it is a nervous habit, perhaps she would be able to do something else
> with her hands. It's possible you could find a little thing that she
> could hold onto, roll between her fingers, a ring, or a bracelet, or
> something to fidget with instead of biting.
>
>
> clean, even if it means washing them myself with a warm wash rag. She'sYes, she loves gum! I'll buy more gum and keep it around so she can chew as much as she wants. She has such a hard time keeping track of things that maybe something attached to her body would be good to play with, like a bracelet or necklace. Thanks for the suggestion!
> almost 8, and I don't see this changing anytime soon.
>
> Instead of focusing on changing her habit, I help her to remember to
> keep her hands and feet clean.
>Thank you for that. I will be more aware of the way that I think about her nail biting- as a habit and not a disease.
> >She was cured of biting her toe nails after that.
> >
>
>
> Being cured suggests that she was ill to begin with. Don't make nail
> biting a disease. It's a habit, a grooming habit if you will. There
> are other ways to keep nails trimmed, but nail biting is one way in
> which it's done. I was a nail biter and thumb sucker as a child. It
> was physically uncomfortable to have any white parts of nail growing out
> beyond where the nail was stuck down onto the skin. I really couldn't
> handle that sensation and clippers and nail scissors wouldn't get that
> close, the way I needed it to be. By the time I was about 14, I decided
> on my own to stop biting my nails and let them grow. I dealt with the
> physical discomfort because it was my choice to do so, I pushed past it
> and found a way to let my nails grow. I keep my nails trimmed. I don't
> like them long, but I'm also happy that I don't get hang nails anymore
> like I did when I bit my nails.
>
I have a new habit. My forever-straight hair has just started to get a few waves and, dare I might say, a little curl. I LOVE to twirl it right at the spot where it is started to curl to get it a bit curlier. It's fun, it's relaxing and it makes me feel good because I like this new physical sensation of having hair with body! Now I see how my daughter might feel about her nail biting. It feels good (most of the time, anyway), fulfills a need, and I could go so far as to say it's fun for her. That helps me be more compassionate and understanding when she needs another bandaid or when I offer to help her wash her hands.
Thanks to this list for letting me think all of this "outloud".
Molly in Ecuador
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm wondering, Sandra, what you think about spending an extra 30
seconds or one minute in the cab so she can "do her thing" (now, it's
not really about her biting her nails, but more about not being forced
into anything) and then happily hopping out then being worried about
the cab driver losing money or becoming impatient and picking her up
which could mean even more time in the stopped car because she's
squirming or yelling.-=-
I'd warn her a few minutes before it's time to get out and make sure
she's ready to jump out.
Thirty seconds is a long time for something that's not beneficial to
anyone involved.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
seconds or one minute in the cab so she can "do her thing" (now, it's
not really about her biting her nails, but more about not being forced
into anything) and then happily hopping out then being worried about
the cab driver losing money or becoming impatient and picking her up
which could mean even more time in the stopped car because she's
squirming or yelling.-=-
I'd warn her a few minutes before it's time to get out and make sure
she's ready to jump out.
Thirty seconds is a long time for something that's not beneficial to
anyone involved.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
,
her will can make a difficult situation. Sometimes she is easy-going
and will either finish up really quick or just drop it and move on. I
need to read every situation because it depends on her reaction.
I'm wondering, Sandra, what you think about spending an extra 30
seconds or one minute in the cab so she can "do her thing" (now, it's
not really about her biting her nails, but more about not being forced
into anything) and then happily hopping out then being worried about
the cab driver losing money or becoming impatient and picking her up
which could mean even more time in the stopped car because she's
squirming or yelling.<<<
As the mom of a child for whom resistance (and transitions) also can
become an issue, I would tell her that people are waiting for her, to
let her know, allow her to finish up and get out as peacefully as
possible then I'd say "sorry for the delay" to the cab driver and give
him an extra $2 for his time. (That's assuming an extra minute or
less was needed).
Afterwards, I might explain to my daughter why the cab driver's time
is valuable to him and that I felt it was necessary to thank him for
waiting. The next time we were in a cab I'd remind her as we neared
our destination that we need to be ready to hop out.
krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>Sabina can be extremely stubborn. So when I say "okay, hop out nowplease" and she resists, I know that reaching to pick her up against
her will can make a difficult situation. Sometimes she is easy-going
and will either finish up really quick or just drop it and move on. I
need to read every situation because it depends on her reaction.
I'm wondering, Sandra, what you think about spending an extra 30
seconds or one minute in the cab so she can "do her thing" (now, it's
not really about her biting her nails, but more about not being forced
into anything) and then happily hopping out then being worried about
the cab driver losing money or becoming impatient and picking her up
which could mean even more time in the stopped car because she's
squirming or yelling.<<<
As the mom of a child for whom resistance (and transitions) also can
become an issue, I would tell her that people are waiting for her, to
let her know, allow her to finish up and get out as peacefully as
possible then I'd say "sorry for the delay" to the cab driver and give
him an extra $2 for his time. (That's assuming an extra minute or
less was needed).
Afterwards, I might explain to my daughter why the cab driver's time
is valuable to him and that I felt it was necessary to thank him for
waiting. The next time we were in a cab I'd remind her as we neared
our destination that we need to be ready to hop out.
krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-As the mom of a child for whom resistance (and transitions) also can
become an issue, I would tell her that people are waiting for her, to
let her know, allow her to finish up and get out as peacefully as
possible then I'd say "sorry for the delay" to the cab driver and give
him an extra $2 for his time. (That's assuming an extra minute or
less was needed).-=-
That sounds good.
I think parents whose kids make a big mess or extra noise in a
restaurant should tip extra. Not $2; more than that.
What I don't think sounds good is the idea that because a family is
unschooling that other people not at all involved directly in their
unschooling decisions should be inconvenienced or see their kids being
what might seem unreasonable or rude. It's bad for other
unschoolers. It's bad for those kids. It's not great for the family.
When I took a young Holly to a carpet store and let her pick a carpet
pattern, that impressed a guy and he made some money off it. When we
let our kids decide yes or no about restaurant desserts, that
impressed people (though it rarely made them any money).
-= Afterwards, I might explain to my daughter why the cab driver's time
is valuable to him and that I felt it was necessary to thank him for
waiting. The next time we were in a cab I'd remind her as we neared
our destination that we need to be ready to hop out.-=-
Would she need an explanation? Shouldn't all kids old enough to say
"Wait a minute" know that other people's time and preferences count,
especially when they own the vehicle/building? Should any child need
an explanation for why a parent thanked someone else? Thanking people
as a matter of course all the time is self-explanatory. If I say
"Thanks for your patience" to someone who was patient with my child's
decision-making or money-counting or questions, the child will know
why I said thanks just for having been there.
-=- The next time we were in a cab I'd remind her as we neared
our destination that we need to be ready to hop out.-=-
I was in a few cabs with Schuyler's family last month. I needed to be
told when we were near our destination because I was so busy looking
around at buildings and cars and people and sculptures. It's a common
bit of information, when people are using cabs or busses or trains
that the next block or the next stop is the one.
Same for unschoolers as anyone, on that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
become an issue, I would tell her that people are waiting for her, to
let her know, allow her to finish up and get out as peacefully as
possible then I'd say "sorry for the delay" to the cab driver and give
him an extra $2 for his time. (That's assuming an extra minute or
less was needed).-=-
That sounds good.
I think parents whose kids make a big mess or extra noise in a
restaurant should tip extra. Not $2; more than that.
What I don't think sounds good is the idea that because a family is
unschooling that other people not at all involved directly in their
unschooling decisions should be inconvenienced or see their kids being
what might seem unreasonable or rude. It's bad for other
unschoolers. It's bad for those kids. It's not great for the family.
When I took a young Holly to a carpet store and let her pick a carpet
pattern, that impressed a guy and he made some money off it. When we
let our kids decide yes or no about restaurant desserts, that
impressed people (though it rarely made them any money).
-= Afterwards, I might explain to my daughter why the cab driver's time
is valuable to him and that I felt it was necessary to thank him for
waiting. The next time we were in a cab I'd remind her as we neared
our destination that we need to be ready to hop out.-=-
Would she need an explanation? Shouldn't all kids old enough to say
"Wait a minute" know that other people's time and preferences count,
especially when they own the vehicle/building? Should any child need
an explanation for why a parent thanked someone else? Thanking people
as a matter of course all the time is self-explanatory. If I say
"Thanks for your patience" to someone who was patient with my child's
decision-making or money-counting or questions, the child will know
why I said thanks just for having been there.
-=- The next time we were in a cab I'd remind her as we neared
our destination that we need to be ready to hop out.-=-
I was in a few cabs with Schuyler's family last month. I needed to be
told when we were near our destination because I was so busy looking
around at buildings and cars and people and sculptures. It's a common
bit of information, when people are using cabs or busses or trains
that the next block or the next stop is the one.
Same for unschoolers as anyone, on that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>Perhaps kids who don't read social cues well or need plenty of
> Would she need an explanation? Shouldn't all kids old enough to say
> "Wait a minute" know that other people's time and preferences count,
> especially when they own the vehicle/building? Should any child need
> an explanation for why a parent thanked someone else? Thanking people
> as a matter of course all the time is self-explanatory. If I say
> "Thanks for your patience" to someone who was patient with my child's
> decision-making or money-counting or questions, the child will know
> why I said thanks just for having been there.
coaching could use the explanation. Kids who don't immediately
understand about others' preferences only from observing.
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Perhaps kids who don't read social cues well or need plenty of
coaching could use the explanation. Kids who don't immediately
understand about others' preferences only from observing.-=-
Maybe.
But if someone brings us food and I say, in front of my daughter,
"Thanks for this! This is great. We were getting hungry," then if
the person leaves and I explain to Holly that I felt it necessary to
thank the person for bringing us food, and it was great, because we
were hungry," she won't listen to me much in the times to come (if she
listened that time) because I'm repeating myself.
I'm not understanding why people think unschoolers somehow should be
treated differently by cab drivers, or feel that they have the right
to treat cab drivers differently because of being unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coaching could use the explanation. Kids who don't immediately
understand about others' preferences only from observing.-=-
Maybe.
But if someone brings us food and I say, in front of my daughter,
"Thanks for this! This is great. We were getting hungry," then if
the person leaves and I explain to Holly that I felt it necessary to
thank the person for bringing us food, and it was great, because we
were hungry," she won't listen to me much in the times to come (if she
listened that time) because I'm repeating myself.
I'm not understanding why people think unschoolers somehow should be
treated differently by cab drivers, or feel that they have the right
to treat cab drivers differently because of being unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
>>I'm not understanding why people think unschoolers somehow should betreated differently by cab drivers, or feel that they have the right
to treat cab drivers differently because of being unschoolers.<<
I don't think anyone needs to be treated differently because they are
unschooling. My kids do sometimes need a bit of interpretation or
support though, depending on how old (or mature) they are. My son
used to miss social cues a lot. He's quite a bit better at that stuff
now but he needed, for example to be told not to stand too close when
talking to people or not to dominate the conversation. He just didn't
read people's cues that they were uncomfortable or couldn't figure out
why they were. So we'd try to point it out, matter of factly,
sometimes privately so he wouldn't feel the extra stress of being
embarrassed about it but sometimes right at the moment so he could fix
it and go on with more success. I know at age 9 he would have been
oblivious for the need to hurry out of a cab (or off of a bus) , This
is not because he unschools. He definitely had these issues before we
came to unschooling but unschooling gave me the ability to be there
when things were difficult for him and point things out that might
help him. Perhaps the nail biting child also has such a need.
Perhaps not.
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know at age 9 he would have been
oblivious for the need to hurry out of a cab (or off of a bus)-=-
Right, and that's fine.
But there's a huge range between slap a kid and say "MOVE," and tell
the cab driver to wait a minute while he's through with something of
questionable value even to himself (nail biting, or whatever).
If a kid's playing a gameboy and the game can't be easily paused, the
parent should give him enough notice to pause so he can exit the cab
quickly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
oblivious for the need to hurry out of a cab (or off of a bus)-=-
Right, and that's fine.
But there's a huge range between slap a kid and say "MOVE," and tell
the cab driver to wait a minute while he's through with something of
questionable value even to himself (nail biting, or whatever).
If a kid's playing a gameboy and the game can't be easily paused, the
parent should give him enough notice to pause so he can exit the cab
quickly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]