13 year old Dutch girl is my new hero
Avdi Grimm
This story got my attention this morning:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8226196.stm
IMHO it's a sad state of affairs when the state takes it's protective
role to the point of stifling a child's dreams. BUT, that's not the
what I wanted to draw attention to. The part that really caught my
fancy was this quote:
"I want simply to learn about the world and to live freely." -- Laura Dekker
I could not possibly have said it better myself.
--
Avdi
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8226196.stm
IMHO it's a sad state of affairs when the state takes it's protective
role to the point of stifling a child's dreams. BUT, that's not the
what I wanted to draw attention to. The part that really caught my
fancy was this quote:
"I want simply to learn about the world and to live freely." -- Laura Dekker
I could not possibly have said it better myself.
--
Avdi
Home: http://avdi.org
Developer Blog: http://avdi.org/devblog/
The Lazy Faire: http://thelazyfaire.org
Twitter: http://twitter.com/avdi
Journal: http://avdi.livejournal.com
Kerry Burkhart
This is the first time I have ever posted, but I have to comment. That was
the saddest article I have read in a long time. And, make no mistake, it is
the way of the future. Avdi, I couldn't agree with you more-- her quote was
beautiful "I want to learn about the world and live freely." Why does that
scare people so much?
Kerry
the saddest article I have read in a long time. And, make no mistake, it is
the way of the future. Avdi, I couldn't agree with you more-- her quote was
beautiful "I want to learn about the world and live freely." Why does that
scare people so much?
Kerry
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Avdi Grimm <avdi@...> wrote:
>
>
> This story got my attention this morning:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8226196.stm
>
> IMHO it's a sad state of affairs when the state takes it's protective
> role to the point of stifling a child's dreams. BUT, that's not the
> what I wanted to draw attention to. The part that really caught my
> fancy was this quote:
>
> "I want simply to learn about the world and to live freely." -- Laura
> Dekker
>
> I could not possibly have said it better myself.
>
> --
> Avdi
>
> Home: http://avdi.org
> Developer Blog: http://avdi.org/devblog/
> The Lazy Faire: http://thelazyfaire.org
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/avdi
> Journal: http://avdi.livejournal.com
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-That was
the saddest article I have read in a long time.-=-
Good for you, then! There are sadder things. Don't turn the news
on. I avoid it myself. (I started to tell a story I heard last night
before I found the remote, but I will spare the list.)
-=-And, make no mistake, it is the way of the future. -=-
I disagree. The fact that many of us have children who didn't go to
school and that number is increasing and reaching voting age, and the
age to create policy, will keep that from being the inevitable pattern
of future life.
-=-Her quote was beautiful "I want to learn about the world and live
freely." Why does that scare people so much?-=-
Speaking as someone who has had a 13 year old girl, rape comes to mind
immediately. Facial disfigurement. Serious injury. Death. I didn't
think of those things much when I was 13. When my daughter was 13 I
did.
The family can (and might) move to another country where homeschooling
is a viable option. Maybe it's already legal in The Netherlands (I
thought it was). Maybe the parents didn't consider that.
When I was first around homeschooling, three stories kept being told.
One was a girl who was asked to be on an orchestra tour of Australia,
I think it was, and her school wouldn't let her go. The other was
similar; I forget now but it was a wonderful opportunity for anyone of
any age, and the school insisted school-on-schedule was more
important, and the parents acquiesced. The third was a girl in the NW
U.S. who was in trouble for flying an ultralight plane (I think)? Her
parents got in trouble, somehow. There are probably links to articles
about that one. She was homeschooled.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the saddest article I have read in a long time.-=-
Good for you, then! There are sadder things. Don't turn the news
on. I avoid it myself. (I started to tell a story I heard last night
before I found the remote, but I will spare the list.)
-=-And, make no mistake, it is the way of the future. -=-
I disagree. The fact that many of us have children who didn't go to
school and that number is increasing and reaching voting age, and the
age to create policy, will keep that from being the inevitable pattern
of future life.
-=-Her quote was beautiful "I want to learn about the world and live
freely." Why does that scare people so much?-=-
Speaking as someone who has had a 13 year old girl, rape comes to mind
immediately. Facial disfigurement. Serious injury. Death. I didn't
think of those things much when I was 13. When my daughter was 13 I
did.
The family can (and might) move to another country where homeschooling
is a viable option. Maybe it's already legal in The Netherlands (I
thought it was). Maybe the parents didn't consider that.
When I was first around homeschooling, three stories kept being told.
One was a girl who was asked to be on an orchestra tour of Australia,
I think it was, and her school wouldn't let her go. The other was
similar; I forget now but it was a wonderful opportunity for anyone of
any age, and the school insisted school-on-schedule was more
important, and the parents acquiesced. The third was a girl in the NW
U.S. who was in trouble for flying an ultralight plane (I think)? Her
parents got in trouble, somehow. There are probably links to articles
about that one. She was homeschooled.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Here are some of the people who will change the course of European
awareness:
http://unschooling.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-about-qualifications.html
Three home educated teens/young adults talking about getting into
university in the U.K.
Sandra
awareness:
http://unschooling.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-about-qualifications.html
Three home educated teens/young adults talking about getting into
university in the U.K.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/29/2009 3:46 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
years old and she and her father and instructor all died in a plane
crash. She was attempting to be the youngest person to fly across the
US. Her father was in the back seat, a flying instructor was next to
Jessica in the plane. Jessica was flying. The weather was bad, but they
decided to go anyway because they had news media waiting, and she
crashed after takeoff. In interviews, her mother talked about allowing
her to "follow her bliss," which was a popular expression at the time.
It brought some very negative attention to homeschoolers for a while and
there was talk of legislation, but nothing came of it.
I don't understand or agree with trying to set records of being the
youngest to do things. If a kid loves flying, support that love in ways
that are reasonable - in Jessica Dubroff's case, the father had made it
into a huge publicity thing - a 7 year old flying coast-to-coast. There
were many ways that her love of flying could have been supported other
than that kind of media pressure that led to them choosing to fly in bad
weather.
Same thing with this 13 year old who wants to take 2 years to sail alone
around the world. If it is to set the record as the youngest to ever do
that, then I, personally, would not support it. I WOULD support my
child's love of sailing, of course, in a zillion other ways.
Supporting our kids interests doesn't mean supporting every possible way
of pursuing that interest, no matter how large the risk is. We adults
are usually better able to assess risk and we shouldn't abandon that
ability and our responsibility to protect our children when they don't
have the ability to assess risk (I don't think a 7 year old can even
grasp the permanence of death, yet, much less make assessments about how
risky flying in bad weather might be, etc). Kids need parents to use
their good judgment and find ways to support the kids' interests that
are within some reasonable bounds of safety.
-pam
> The third was a girl in the NWThat was Jessica Dubroff, here in California, 13 years ago. She was 7
> U.S. who was in trouble for flying an ultralight plane (I think)? Her
> parents got in trouble, somehow. There are probably links to articles
> about that one. She was homeschooled.
>
years old and she and her father and instructor all died in a plane
crash. She was attempting to be the youngest person to fly across the
US. Her father was in the back seat, a flying instructor was next to
Jessica in the plane. Jessica was flying. The weather was bad, but they
decided to go anyway because they had news media waiting, and she
crashed after takeoff. In interviews, her mother talked about allowing
her to "follow her bliss," which was a popular expression at the time.
It brought some very negative attention to homeschoolers for a while and
there was talk of legislation, but nothing came of it.
I don't understand or agree with trying to set records of being the
youngest to do things. If a kid loves flying, support that love in ways
that are reasonable - in Jessica Dubroff's case, the father had made it
into a huge publicity thing - a 7 year old flying coast-to-coast. There
were many ways that her love of flying could have been supported other
than that kind of media pressure that led to them choosing to fly in bad
weather.
Same thing with this 13 year old who wants to take 2 years to sail alone
around the world. If it is to set the record as the youngest to ever do
that, then I, personally, would not support it. I WOULD support my
child's love of sailing, of course, in a zillion other ways.
Supporting our kids interests doesn't mean supporting every possible way
of pursuing that interest, no matter how large the risk is. We adults
are usually better able to assess risk and we shouldn't abandon that
ability and our responsibility to protect our children when they don't
have the ability to assess risk (I don't think a 7 year old can even
grasp the permanence of death, yet, much less make assessments about how
risky flying in bad weather might be, etc). Kids need parents to use
their good judgment and find ways to support the kids' interests that
are within some reasonable bounds of safety.
-pam
Robin Krest
"---------- Original Message ----------
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
"Same thing with this 13 year old who wants to take 2 years to sail alone
around the world. If it is to set the record as the youngest to ever do
that, then I, personally, would not support it. I WOULD support my
child's love of sailing, of course, in a zillion other ways
pam"
But we don't know this girl, or her family. We don't know what her sailing experience is, how many times she has soloed before, what sort of conditions she has sailed in. We know little to nothing about her experiences, her maturity level, her judgment capability.
I sail. I know what sorts of things can happen from being out there, hearing from and reading about others. I do see a difference in what this girl wants to do (solo voyage) and a non-stop circumnavigation, but it still comes down to I cannot make a decision for a girl I know nothing about. That is for her and her family to decide.
Robin
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From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
"Same thing with this 13 year old who wants to take 2 years to sail alone
around the world. If it is to set the record as the youngest to ever do
that, then I, personally, would not support it. I WOULD support my
child's love of sailing, of course, in a zillion other ways
pam"
But we don't know this girl, or her family. We don't know what her sailing experience is, how many times she has soloed before, what sort of conditions she has sailed in. We know little to nothing about her experiences, her maturity level, her judgment capability.
I sail. I know what sorts of things can happen from being out there, hearing from and reading about others. I do see a difference in what this girl wants to do (solo voyage) and a non-stop circumnavigation, but it still comes down to I cannot make a decision for a girl I know nothing about. That is for her and her family to decide.
Robin
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Kids need parents to use
their good judgment and find ways to support the kids' interests that
are within some reasonable bounds of safety.-=-
Thanks. Someone sent the info on the side too, and I remember now.
The question is whether the government should have prevented the
parents from allowing that, or whether a school should be able to
"forbid" a child (or teen) from participating in an international
music or sports performance or event.
And another question is about what are they afraid of.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their good judgment and find ways to support the kids' interests that
are within some reasonable bounds of safety.-=-
Thanks. Someone sent the info on the side too, and I remember now.
The question is whether the government should have prevented the
parents from allowing that, or whether a school should be able to
"forbid" a child (or teen) from participating in an international
music or sports performance or event.
And another question is about what are they afraid of.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Krest
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] 13 year old Dutch girl is my new hero
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:37:07 -0600
-=-Kids need parents to use
their good judgment and find ways to support the kids' interests that
are within some reasonable bounds of safety.-=-
But this is assuming that sailing is dangerous. Granted, there are risks involved, but driving a car has risks as well. A well maintained sailboat is sturdy and safe; awareness of weather windows and storm patterns reduces the risk of weather related issues (One long time cruising couple estimated they spent only about 1% of their sailing time dealing with bad weather); sailboats move slowly enough you can avoid most collisions quite easily if you are prepared to alter your course and not expect the other person to do so (seriously, there are rules of the road in sailing, but you should never expect the other person knows and follows them). People with NO experience with sailing go cruising quite often, and are fine. This girl has experience.
"Thanks. Someone sent the info on the side too, and I remember now.
The question is whether the government should have prevented the
parents from allowing that, or whether a school should be able to
"forbid" a child (or teen) from participating in an international
music or sports performance or event.
And another question is about what are they afraid of.
Sandra"
But then we start to get into drawing lines for where the government should have the authority to step in. Stop them from traveling with the orchestra? But trains and planes and buses crash, will there be enough chaperones, what if the kids sneak out and something happens? Should girls be allowed to participate in gymnastics on an Olympic level? We know the long term damage that this intense sport can cause to the body, she may catch her head wrong and be paralyzed or die, so let's say no.
If we look at any activity from the fear based side, we can almost always find a reason to say no. But if the person is prepared, has experience, and wants to undertake the adventure, why say no? Will you prevent or force your teen from learning to drive? Or will you follow their lead and help them be prepared for the judgment and skills and maturity necessary to operate a car?
I have been doing a little more reading about her. I cannot find the original source of info yet (still looking) but on the Free Range website there is a discussion about this, and one comment says: "Dekker has already done the shorter but still lengthy solo journeys people are suggesting here and thus, also, her ability to be alone for more than a day at a time has already been tested. She has spent seven weeks sailing the Atlantic alone previously. She is proposing this (yes, much lengthier, much more dangerous, not that solo sailing is ever safe) voyage on top of the experience that some commenters here are recommending for her, not instead of it."
So if she has the experience, the knowledge, the desire, why stop her?
Robin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] 13 year old Dutch girl is my new hero
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:37:07 -0600
-=-Kids need parents to use
their good judgment and find ways to support the kids' interests that
are within some reasonable bounds of safety.-=-
But this is assuming that sailing is dangerous. Granted, there are risks involved, but driving a car has risks as well. A well maintained sailboat is sturdy and safe; awareness of weather windows and storm patterns reduces the risk of weather related issues (One long time cruising couple estimated they spent only about 1% of their sailing time dealing with bad weather); sailboats move slowly enough you can avoid most collisions quite easily if you are prepared to alter your course and not expect the other person to do so (seriously, there are rules of the road in sailing, but you should never expect the other person knows and follows them). People with NO experience with sailing go cruising quite often, and are fine. This girl has experience.
"Thanks. Someone sent the info on the side too, and I remember now.
The question is whether the government should have prevented the
parents from allowing that, or whether a school should be able to
"forbid" a child (or teen) from participating in an international
music or sports performance or event.
And another question is about what are they afraid of.
Sandra"
But then we start to get into drawing lines for where the government should have the authority to step in. Stop them from traveling with the orchestra? But trains and planes and buses crash, will there be enough chaperones, what if the kids sneak out and something happens? Should girls be allowed to participate in gymnastics on an Olympic level? We know the long term damage that this intense sport can cause to the body, she may catch her head wrong and be paralyzed or die, so let's say no.
If we look at any activity from the fear based side, we can almost always find a reason to say no. But if the person is prepared, has experience, and wants to undertake the adventure, why say no? Will you prevent or force your teen from learning to drive? Or will you follow their lead and help them be prepared for the judgment and skills and maturity necessary to operate a car?
I have been doing a little more reading about her. I cannot find the original source of info yet (still looking) but on the Free Range website there is a discussion about this, and one comment says: "Dekker has already done the shorter but still lengthy solo journeys people are suggesting here and thus, also, her ability to be alone for more than a day at a time has already been tested. She has spent seven weeks sailing the Atlantic alone previously. She is proposing this (yes, much lengthier, much more dangerous, not that solo sailing is ever safe) voyage on top of the experience that some commenters here are recommending for her, not instead of it."
So if she has the experience, the knowledge, the desire, why stop her?
Robin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Sandra Dodd
-=But we don't know this girl, or her family. We don't know what her
sailing experience is,-=-
That's right.
Neither are we the child welfare agents of Holland.
Maybe they DO know that girl and her family. Maybe they have reason
to have requested a judge put those limitations (or whatever happened).
I know unschooling families for whom I would vouch, and others for
whom I wouldn't. I'm not in a position to say "okay" or "no way" but
if I were, the neighbors who live behind me would be a big "no way."
-=- but it still comes down to I cannot make a decision for a girl I
know nothing about.-=-
But you're a mom who read an article thousands of miles from her.
(unless you're in Europe; then adjust numbers)
If you were someone with some responsibility and authority of some
sort, you might be pressed to make a decision, and agreeing to
something is agreeing to share in liability for the outcome in some
cases.
-=-That is for her and her family to decide.-=-
That depends on the laws and policies where they are resident or
citizens. There are things that are NOT for a girl and her family to
decide, probably in every culture and jurisdiction on the planet.
Unschooling doesn't change that fact.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sailing experience is,-=-
That's right.
Neither are we the child welfare agents of Holland.
Maybe they DO know that girl and her family. Maybe they have reason
to have requested a judge put those limitations (or whatever happened).
I know unschooling families for whom I would vouch, and others for
whom I wouldn't. I'm not in a position to say "okay" or "no way" but
if I were, the neighbors who live behind me would be a big "no way."
-=- but it still comes down to I cannot make a decision for a girl I
know nothing about.-=-
But you're a mom who read an article thousands of miles from her.
(unless you're in Europe; then adjust numbers)
If you were someone with some responsibility and authority of some
sort, you might be pressed to make a decision, and agreeing to
something is agreeing to share in liability for the outcome in some
cases.
-=-That is for her and her family to decide.-=-
That depends on the laws and policies where they are resident or
citizens. There are things that are NOT for a girl and her family to
decide, probably in every culture and jurisdiction on the planet.
Unschooling doesn't change that fact.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 29, 2009, at 8:31 AM, Robin Krest wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/world/europe/29dutch.html?th&emc=th
being alone for that length of time is like. I don't think most
adults are! But that says nothing about this particular 13 yo. That's
not something that we have enough information to discuss.
But I think it is right for authorities to check into it. Not all 13
yos are being raised by supportive, involved parents so it isn't a
good assumption to make.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But we don't know this girl, or her family. We don't know what herThere's some more information in a New York Times article:
> sailing experience is, how many times she has soloed before, what
> sort of conditions she has sailed in. We know little to nothing
> about her experiences, her maturity level, her judgment capability.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/world/europe/29dutch.html?th&emc=th
> There is no legal debate about her skills,� [the family's lawyer]In general I don't think 13 yos are capable of truly grasping what
> said.
>
> Laura grew up on the sea. She was born in New Zealand while her
> parents were sailing around the world and spent her first four
> years at sea with them.
>
> She said on a Dutch children�s show this month that she had been
> sailing solo since age 6 and planning her global voyage for three
> years.
>
>
being alone for that length of time is like. I don't think most
adults are! But that says nothing about this particular 13 yo. That's
not something that we have enough information to discuss.
But I think it is right for authorities to check into it. Not all 13
yos are being raised by supportive, involved parents so it isn't a
good assumption to make.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Krest
"That's right. Neither are we the child welfare agents of Holland. Maybe they DO know that girl and her family. Maybe they have reason to have requested a judge put those limitations (or whatever happened)."
No, they do not know her either, that is why they are placing a two month block so a psychologist can examine her.
Someone who is familiar with her and sailing says this:
"And what about Mike Perham who just finished his global trek and sailed across the Atlantic Ocean alone at age 14 would he let Laura go?
He told The Daily Telegraph:
If I was asked whether an average 13-year-old girl should sail around the world Id immediately say no. But Laura isnt average and thats what I feel has caused this little storm ( ) What people will fail to see is that shes an accomplished sailor already and has a lot of sailing experience
How young is too young? Age is only a number. Its what makes the person that is important. "
Sandra said:
"But you're a mom who read an article thousands of miles from her.
(unless you're in Europe; then adjust numbers)
If you were someone with some responsibility and authority of some
sort, you might be pressed to make a decision, and agreeing to
something is agreeing to share in liability for the outcome in some
cases."
And having read a lot about this and her previous experience and what I know about sailing? I would let her go on the voyage. They have planned a safer route for her, she has port stops planned so she is not at sea longer than about 3 weeks. She may be injured, she may die...or she may do just fine and have a wonderful time.
I cannot find the quote now, but when I was reading about this last night a government (I think it was the Netherlands) prevented a student from traveling with an orchestra through Europe because it would be disruptive to the person's schooling. Seems to me their judgment is a little off on that one, so I do not have faith they can look at what is best for an individual.
"That depends on the laws and policies where they are resident or citizens. There are things that are NOT for a girl and her family to decide, probably in every culture and jurisdiction on the planet. Unschooling doesn't change that fact.
Sandra"
True, which is why she had to apply to miss school. So she is planning now on renouncing her citizenship in favor of New Zealand (she has a NZ passport) to do this. Again, in light of unschooling, we advocate that with knowledge and support and guidance our children are free to pursue what interests them. If she has the knowledge and ability and experience, and guidance from other knowledgeable sailors, why are we, as unschoolers, saying it is a bad idea?
Robin K.
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No, they do not know her either, that is why they are placing a two month block so a psychologist can examine her.
Someone who is familiar with her and sailing says this:
"And what about Mike Perham who just finished his global trek and sailed across the Atlantic Ocean alone at age 14 would he let Laura go?
He told The Daily Telegraph:
If I was asked whether an average 13-year-old girl should sail around the world Id immediately say no. But Laura isnt average and thats what I feel has caused this little storm ( ) What people will fail to see is that shes an accomplished sailor already and has a lot of sailing experience
How young is too young? Age is only a number. Its what makes the person that is important. "
Sandra said:
"But you're a mom who read an article thousands of miles from her.
(unless you're in Europe; then adjust numbers)
If you were someone with some responsibility and authority of some
sort, you might be pressed to make a decision, and agreeing to
something is agreeing to share in liability for the outcome in some
cases."
And having read a lot about this and her previous experience and what I know about sailing? I would let her go on the voyage. They have planned a safer route for her, she has port stops planned so she is not at sea longer than about 3 weeks. She may be injured, she may die...or she may do just fine and have a wonderful time.
I cannot find the quote now, but when I was reading about this last night a government (I think it was the Netherlands) prevented a student from traveling with an orchestra through Europe because it would be disruptive to the person's schooling. Seems to me their judgment is a little off on that one, so I do not have faith they can look at what is best for an individual.
"That depends on the laws and policies where they are resident or citizens. There are things that are NOT for a girl and her family to decide, probably in every culture and jurisdiction on the planet. Unschooling doesn't change that fact.
Sandra"
True, which is why she had to apply to miss school. So she is planning now on renouncing her citizenship in favor of New Zealand (she has a NZ passport) to do this. Again, in light of unschooling, we advocate that with knowledge and support and guidance our children are free to pursue what interests them. If she has the knowledge and ability and experience, and guidance from other knowledgeable sailors, why are we, as unschoolers, saying it is a bad idea?
Robin K.
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Robin Krest
"In general I don't think 13 yos are capable of truly grasping what
being alone for that length of time is like. I don't think most
adults are! But that says nothing about this particular 13 yo. That's
not something that we have enough information to discuss.
But I think it is right for authorities to check into it. Not all 13
yos are being raised by supportive, involved parents so it isn't a
good assumption to make.
Joyce"
She made a 7 week solo voyage in the Atlantic at 11. Her mother approves the trip. Her father approves and is involved in planning the trip. He is supporting her enough to risk having custody taken away if the court deems it so. How much more do we need to for them to prove to the courts and the government that she can do this?
Adults with less knowledge and experience than Dekker go cruising. Do we say merely because of age and lifetime experience, but lacking specific sailing experience, they are okay and she is not? Who is more at risk- the one who knows what they are doing, or the one who doesn't?
Robin K.
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being alone for that length of time is like. I don't think most
adults are! But that says nothing about this particular 13 yo. That's
not something that we have enough information to discuss.
But I think it is right for authorities to check into it. Not all 13
yos are being raised by supportive, involved parents so it isn't a
good assumption to make.
Joyce"
She made a 7 week solo voyage in the Atlantic at 11. Her mother approves the trip. Her father approves and is involved in planning the trip. He is supporting her enough to risk having custody taken away if the court deems it so. How much more do we need to for them to prove to the courts and the government that she can do this?
Adults with less knowledge and experience than Dekker go cruising. Do we say merely because of age and lifetime experience, but lacking specific sailing experience, they are okay and she is not? Who is more at risk- the one who knows what they are doing, or the one who doesn't?
Robin K.
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Sandra Dodd
-=
�How young is too young? Age is only a number. It�s what makes the
person that is important.� "-=-
I didn't see this quote before. I can't tell from your post what
words are whose. Some quote marks don't pass through yahoogroups. I
use -=-this for quotes-=- but some people use **stars** or something.
It needs to be black and physical, though, please.
-=-And having read a lot about this and her previous experience and
what I know about sailing? I would let her go on the voyage. -=-
Right! IF you were one of those officials, you would have known more
about it and maybe recommended a different judgment.
-=-Seems to me their judgment is a little off on that one, so I do not
have faith they can look at what is best for an individual.-=-
But they operate on the authority of people who elected or hired them,
and your faith in them isn't one of their factors.
-=- So she is planning now on renouncing her citizenship in favor of
New Zealand (she has a NZ passport) to do this.-=-
Good deal then! She could move to another place and register to
homeschool and have more rights. When people complain too loud and
long about the homeschool laws where they live, the first response is
usually "Find locals who have figured it out" and the last response is
usually "Then move."
-=-Again, in light of unschooling, we advocate that with knowledge and
support and guidance our children are free to pursue what interests
them.-=-
This kind of statement is designed to get us to consent by silence.
You're speaking for all unschoolers, and so the choice of others is to
tacitly agree or to disagree, which seems to say the opposite thing.
With knowledge and support and guidance my children have pursued MANY
things--not because they "are free," but because my husband and I gave
them approval. There are some things we don't have the power to
approve. They can't violate laws and say, "Well my parents said it
was okay." (If they did, we could have lost custody, in some worst-
case scenario.)
-=-If she has the knowledge and ability and experience, and guidance
from other knowledgeable sailors, why are we, as unschoolers, saying
it is a bad idea?-=-
"WE" as unschoolers aren't saying anything. If we had a governing
council of unschoolers, they might vote and say what "we as
unschoolers" were saying, but we don't and we shouldn't, ever ever
ever. Ever. So one person said she thought it was wrong and didn't
understand what people were afraid of. Some other people said they
understood what people were afraid of.
For the purposes of this list, for people's learning about unschooling
principles, the ideas are being discussed. We will neither prevent a
girl from sailing on a boat nor will we "win her freedom" from
school. We're just talking. So please remember it's just words and
don't get too excited. The differences this discussion will make will
be in the clarity of thought of those who read it and think about
their own children, and responsibilities, and the laws and social
entities with authority in their area.
I didn't say it was a bad idea. I answered the question "Why does
that scare people so much?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
�How young is too young? Age is only a number. It�s what makes the
person that is important.� "-=-
I didn't see this quote before. I can't tell from your post what
words are whose. Some quote marks don't pass through yahoogroups. I
use -=-this for quotes-=- but some people use **stars** or something.
It needs to be black and physical, though, please.
-=-And having read a lot about this and her previous experience and
what I know about sailing? I would let her go on the voyage. -=-
Right! IF you were one of those officials, you would have known more
about it and maybe recommended a different judgment.
-=-Seems to me their judgment is a little off on that one, so I do not
have faith they can look at what is best for an individual.-=-
But they operate on the authority of people who elected or hired them,
and your faith in them isn't one of their factors.
-=- So she is planning now on renouncing her citizenship in favor of
New Zealand (she has a NZ passport) to do this.-=-
Good deal then! She could move to another place and register to
homeschool and have more rights. When people complain too loud and
long about the homeschool laws where they live, the first response is
usually "Find locals who have figured it out" and the last response is
usually "Then move."
-=-Again, in light of unschooling, we advocate that with knowledge and
support and guidance our children are free to pursue what interests
them.-=-
This kind of statement is designed to get us to consent by silence.
You're speaking for all unschoolers, and so the choice of others is to
tacitly agree or to disagree, which seems to say the opposite thing.
With knowledge and support and guidance my children have pursued MANY
things--not because they "are free," but because my husband and I gave
them approval. There are some things we don't have the power to
approve. They can't violate laws and say, "Well my parents said it
was okay." (If they did, we could have lost custody, in some worst-
case scenario.)
-=-If she has the knowledge and ability and experience, and guidance
from other knowledgeable sailors, why are we, as unschoolers, saying
it is a bad idea?-=-
"WE" as unschoolers aren't saying anything. If we had a governing
council of unschoolers, they might vote and say what "we as
unschoolers" were saying, but we don't and we shouldn't, ever ever
ever. Ever. So one person said she thought it was wrong and didn't
understand what people were afraid of. Some other people said they
understood what people were afraid of.
For the purposes of this list, for people's learning about unschooling
principles, the ideas are being discussed. We will neither prevent a
girl from sailing on a boat nor will we "win her freedom" from
school. We're just talking. So please remember it's just words and
don't get too excited. The differences this discussion will make will
be in the clarity of thought of those who read it and think about
their own children, and responsibilities, and the laws and social
entities with authority in their area.
I didn't say it was a bad idea. I answered the question "Why does
that scare people so much?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
What I said was that I don't think, myself, personally, that taking that
kind of risk is worth trying to set a record for being the youngest to
do something. That THAT isn't a good reason, to ME, for letting a child
take that kind of risk. If you read the articles about her, you DO know
a lot - she grew up sailing, has sailed with her parents a TON and, as
far as the sailing goes, is undoubtedly as qualified as possible. That
isn't the issue or the question. The question was do we, as unschooling
parents, feel that we have to support this kind of extremely dangerous
interest? My answer is that we shouldn't abandon our better judgment
(better than a 7 year old, probably better than a 13 year old) under the
banner of "supporting their interests." Her interest in sailing around
the world could be supported by her sailing with someone else, rather
than alone, for example. The only reason for doing it alone is to beat
some record for being the youngest, and I'm saying that THAT doesn't
seem (to me, of course, to me - do I really need to keep saying that?)
like a good enough reason to take such an extraordinary risk.
-pam
kind of risk is worth trying to set a record for being the youngest to
do something. That THAT isn't a good reason, to ME, for letting a child
take that kind of risk. If you read the articles about her, you DO know
a lot - she grew up sailing, has sailed with her parents a TON and, as
far as the sailing goes, is undoubtedly as qualified as possible. That
isn't the issue or the question. The question was do we, as unschooling
parents, feel that we have to support this kind of extremely dangerous
interest? My answer is that we shouldn't abandon our better judgment
(better than a 7 year old, probably better than a 13 year old) under the
banner of "supporting their interests." Her interest in sailing around
the world could be supported by her sailing with someone else, rather
than alone, for example. The only reason for doing it alone is to beat
some record for being the youngest, and I'm saying that THAT doesn't
seem (to me, of course, to me - do I really need to keep saying that?)
like a good enough reason to take such an extraordinary risk.
-pam
On 8/29/2009 5:31 AM, Robin Krest wrote:
> But we don't know this girl, or her family. We don't know what her sailing experience is, how many times she has soloed before, what sort of conditions she has sailed in. We know little to nothing about her experiences, her maturity level, her judgment capability.
>
> I sail. I know what sorts of things can happen from being out there, hearing from and reading about others. I do see a difference in what this girl wants to do (solo voyage) and a non-stop circumnavigation, but it still comes down to I cannot make a decision for a girl I know nothing about. That is for her and her family to decide.
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/29/2009 6:28 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
like the fame and fortune of beating some kind of record.
My concern isn't so much with the authorities stepping in - that's a
reality we unschoolers live with and in - the way our society is
structured, the laws, etc. To me, that's a different issue that isn't
all that significant to this list. On this list, though, lots of parents
look for what unschooling is like, what long-time unschoolers would do,
how we think about these things. I want to be very clear, because I feel
a certain sense of responsibility, that, to ME, supporting my child's
interests goes beyond making it possible for them to do absolutely
anything that they might possibily dream of doing, but also knowing that
they count on me to use my longer lifetime of experience and let's hope,
some wisdom and perspective gained along the way, to assess risks versus
benefits more accurately than they can do. The gain of beating some kind
of record for being the youngest to do something is not, in my view, a
long-lasting wonderful extremely valuable thing. But how is my young
child going to have any way to assess how important that record will
seem in 20 years, let's say? So - in considering the risks and benefits,
I am at a great advantage over my child - I understand death and I
understand the fleeting nature of those kinds of records. I'm just
saying, my kids depend on me, it is in their interest, to use my better
judgment.
-pam
> But I think it is right for authorities to check into it. Not all 13Some are motivated by things other than the child's best interests -
> yos are being raised by supportive, involved parents so it isn't a
> good assumption to make.
>
like the fame and fortune of beating some kind of record.
My concern isn't so much with the authorities stepping in - that's a
reality we unschoolers live with and in - the way our society is
structured, the laws, etc. To me, that's a different issue that isn't
all that significant to this list. On this list, though, lots of parents
look for what unschooling is like, what long-time unschoolers would do,
how we think about these things. I want to be very clear, because I feel
a certain sense of responsibility, that, to ME, supporting my child's
interests goes beyond making it possible for them to do absolutely
anything that they might possibily dream of doing, but also knowing that
they count on me to use my longer lifetime of experience and let's hope,
some wisdom and perspective gained along the way, to assess risks versus
benefits more accurately than they can do. The gain of beating some kind
of record for being the youngest to do something is not, in my view, a
long-lasting wonderful extremely valuable thing. But how is my young
child going to have any way to assess how important that record will
seem in 20 years, let's say? So - in considering the risks and benefits,
I am at a great advantage over my child - I understand death and I
understand the fleeting nature of those kinds of records. I'm just
saying, my kids depend on me, it is in their interest, to use my better
judgment.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/29/2009 6:06 AM, Robin Krest wrote:
She couldn't. It wasn't legal. Plus, it wasn't a good idea - it was too
risky and there were lots of alternative ways for her to pursue her
traveling and visiting friends interests. Even at 16, rather than
driving herself all over the country, she took the bus and train (and a
couple of ferries).
-pam
> But this is assuming that sailing is dangerous. Granted, there are risks involved, but driving a car has risks as well.Hey - I HAD a 13 year old girl who wanted to drive all over the country.
She couldn't. It wasn't legal. Plus, it wasn't a good idea - it was too
risky and there were lots of alternative ways for her to pursue her
traveling and visiting friends interests. Even at 16, rather than
driving herself all over the country, she took the bus and train (and a
couple of ferries).
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-. I want to be very clear, because I feel
a certain sense of responsibility, that, to ME, supporting my child's
interests goes beyond making it possible for them to do absolutely
anything that they might possibily dream of doing, but also knowing that
they count on me to use my longer lifetime of experience and let's hope,
some wisdom and perspective gained along the way, to assess risks versus
benefits more accurately than they can do-=-
I'll offer a wan apology to the mom if she's on this list, and I
really don't remember who it was, but a few years back somewhere a mom
had a kid (youngish kid, pre-teen, maybe single-digits kid) who wanted
to build a hovercraft, I think it was. And wanted to build a real one,
and not a model. One he could ride in. And soon. This mom was sure
that it was her duty as an unschooling mom to make certain that he was
able to do that. I was pretty sure it was not only NOT her duty, but
it might not even be within her capacity in any way to help him do
that. So there was an argument about what unschooling was.
Unschooling isn't doing the impossible.
Unschooling isn't an excuse to frustrate kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a certain sense of responsibility, that, to ME, supporting my child's
interests goes beyond making it possible for them to do absolutely
anything that they might possibily dream of doing, but also knowing that
they count on me to use my longer lifetime of experience and let's hope,
some wisdom and perspective gained along the way, to assess risks versus
benefits more accurately than they can do-=-
I'll offer a wan apology to the mom if she's on this list, and I
really don't remember who it was, but a few years back somewhere a mom
had a kid (youngish kid, pre-teen, maybe single-digits kid) who wanted
to build a hovercraft, I think it was. And wanted to build a real one,
and not a model. One he could ride in. And soon. This mom was sure
that it was her duty as an unschooling mom to make certain that he was
able to do that. I was pretty sure it was not only NOT her duty, but
it might not even be within her capacity in any way to help him do
that. So there was an argument about what unschooling was.
Unschooling isn't doing the impossible.
Unschooling isn't an excuse to frustrate kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- But this is assuming that sailing is dangerous. Granted, there are
risks involved, but driving a car has risks as well.-=-
This is really kind of a lame argument, isn't it? Driving a car, one
is usually on the ground. Ideally, always. In a sailboat, one is
rarely on solid land. Ideally, never.
If a child wanted to drive around the world solo (even if some of
those stints involved sitting in a ship or sea ferry or in a cargo
plane), I think it would not be a good idea.
Marty wanted to drive to Florida once, from New Mexico. I didn't
think it was a great idea, but had he pressed, I was prepared to help
him out.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
risks involved, but driving a car has risks as well.-=-
This is really kind of a lame argument, isn't it? Driving a car, one
is usually on the ground. Ideally, always. In a sailboat, one is
rarely on solid land. Ideally, never.
If a child wanted to drive around the world solo (even if some of
those stints involved sitting in a ship or sea ferry or in a cargo
plane), I think it would not be a good idea.
Marty wanted to drive to Florida once, from New Mexico. I didn't
think it was a great idea, but had he pressed, I was prepared to help
him out.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Krest
Sandra said ==This is really kind of a lame argument, isn't it? Driving a car, one
is usually on the ground. Ideally, always. In a sailboat, one is
rarely on solid land. Ideally, never.==
Ideally, a sailboat should be on solid ground once a year to clean the bottom, check for hull, prop and rudder problems, change/replace the sacrificial zincs, and have the bottom repainted.
Sailing is risky, as are other activities humans choose to engage in (climbing trees, driving, rappelling, gymnastics, backpacking trips, skiing, etc). I as a parent have to look at my child's abilities and help him determine how to accomplish what he wants. I try to find options, and do a LOT of talking with him sometimes, if my assessment of his abilities is different than his. I have to obey the laws of my area and enforce those laws for him, even if they are counter to his desires ( I am thinking specifically of remaining in a car seat in his case). I may even have to say no. I know this. BUT, if at some point he chose to undertake this trip, and he had solo sailing experience, and demonstrated the judgment and maturity to accomplish this adventure, why should I say no?
Why isn't is counter to unschooling to tell a person that even though she has demonstrated all the knowledge, abilities and judgment necessary to undertake a task, I can still say no?
When people come here asking about, say, a child who likes to climb, we offer all sorts of options to make it safer. We may ask that parent where the parent's fear or objections are coming from, and ask that parent to assess the situation and do what is possible to make it safer. There are still risks with climbing, but we accept those risks. Sailing is on that risk continuum, farther along than some people are willing to go. I think that is what scares people.
Robin K.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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is usually on the ground. Ideally, always. In a sailboat, one is
rarely on solid land. Ideally, never.==
Ideally, a sailboat should be on solid ground once a year to clean the bottom, check for hull, prop and rudder problems, change/replace the sacrificial zincs, and have the bottom repainted.
Sailing is risky, as are other activities humans choose to engage in (climbing trees, driving, rappelling, gymnastics, backpacking trips, skiing, etc). I as a parent have to look at my child's abilities and help him determine how to accomplish what he wants. I try to find options, and do a LOT of talking with him sometimes, if my assessment of his abilities is different than his. I have to obey the laws of my area and enforce those laws for him, even if they are counter to his desires ( I am thinking specifically of remaining in a car seat in his case). I may even have to say no. I know this. BUT, if at some point he chose to undertake this trip, and he had solo sailing experience, and demonstrated the judgment and maturity to accomplish this adventure, why should I say no?
Why isn't is counter to unschooling to tell a person that even though she has demonstrated all the knowledge, abilities and judgment necessary to undertake a task, I can still say no?
When people come here asking about, say, a child who likes to climb, we offer all sorts of options to make it safer. We may ask that parent where the parent's fear or objections are coming from, and ask that parent to assess the situation and do what is possible to make it safer. There are still risks with climbing, but we accept those risks. Sailing is on that risk continuum, farther along than some people are willing to go. I think that is what scares people.
Robin K.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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evawitsel
Interesting to see this story has reached the international news. I live in the Netherlands and have been following this story for some time.
In Dutch news and discussions on the internet, a lot of people focus on the fact that she will miss school and that that is a very very very bad thing in their opinion. Even members of parliament have made statements about this.
As I understand the ruling of earlier this week, the judges explicitly said that Laura's parents didn't do anything wrong. The judges approved of the fact that her parents had tried to dissuade her from her plans. Now child protection services have to prove she is not capable of this trip, if they can't she can go in october.
The legal problems she's in now are partly caused by the fact that she was picked up by British child protection services after she arrived in Lowestoft (UK) by herself. They alerted Dutch child protection services. And then Laura's parents applied to the 'leerplichtambtenaar' (government official who decides if you can take your child out of school or not), but used the wrong article in the law. They used an article that most homeschoolers in the Netherlands use, but it would have been better to use another one that lets children quit school to subscribe to a distance learning program. Since this is what Laura is planning to do, this is what they should have used.
The problem is that homeschooling in the Netherlands is difficult enough as it is, we definitely could do without all this negative publicity. There is no Dutch law that discusses homeschooling. We only have laws that say that children have to go to school. There are three exceptions: if they are physically or mentally unable to go to school, if there isn't a school within 20 km of the same religion of the family (this is the exception that almost all Dutch homeschoolers use), or if the child will use a distance learning program.
I took my son out of school three months after he started when he was four yo (normal age in the Netherlands to start school). I now have a 50% change of having to go to court to be able to homeschool. (If Dutch officials ever found out anything about unschooling, they would not like it. <g>)
I think this is the reason why the Dutch media are making such a big deal out of the Laura case. Not only because what she wants to do is dangerous, but mainly because not going to school is considered very extreme in the Netherlands. On a population of 16 million people, only about 250 children are homeschooled.
Eva
from the Netherlands
In Dutch news and discussions on the internet, a lot of people focus on the fact that she will miss school and that that is a very very very bad thing in their opinion. Even members of parliament have made statements about this.
As I understand the ruling of earlier this week, the judges explicitly said that Laura's parents didn't do anything wrong. The judges approved of the fact that her parents had tried to dissuade her from her plans. Now child protection services have to prove she is not capable of this trip, if they can't she can go in october.
The legal problems she's in now are partly caused by the fact that she was picked up by British child protection services after she arrived in Lowestoft (UK) by herself. They alerted Dutch child protection services. And then Laura's parents applied to the 'leerplichtambtenaar' (government official who decides if you can take your child out of school or not), but used the wrong article in the law. They used an article that most homeschoolers in the Netherlands use, but it would have been better to use another one that lets children quit school to subscribe to a distance learning program. Since this is what Laura is planning to do, this is what they should have used.
The problem is that homeschooling in the Netherlands is difficult enough as it is, we definitely could do without all this negative publicity. There is no Dutch law that discusses homeschooling. We only have laws that say that children have to go to school. There are three exceptions: if they are physically or mentally unable to go to school, if there isn't a school within 20 km of the same religion of the family (this is the exception that almost all Dutch homeschoolers use), or if the child will use a distance learning program.
I took my son out of school three months after he started when he was four yo (normal age in the Netherlands to start school). I now have a 50% change of having to go to court to be able to homeschool. (If Dutch officials ever found out anything about unschooling, they would not like it. <g>)
I think this is the reason why the Dutch media are making such a big deal out of the Laura case. Not only because what she wants to do is dangerous, but mainly because not going to school is considered very extreme in the Netherlands. On a population of 16 million people, only about 250 children are homeschooled.
Eva
from the Netherlands
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/29/2009 9:14 PM, Robin Krest wrote:
and unconditional "yes" to absolutely everything?
I'd be concerned with - it is the adolescent girl traveling around the
world for 2 years entirely on her own. I have three incredible
daughters - very very mature and responsible and unusually competent. I
would not have felt like it was right for me to support them in
traveling around the world for 2 years, from 13 to 15 years old, on
their own, in order to be able to claim to be the youngest ever to do
it. It doesn't matter if it is bicycling, flying, sailing, or walking -
I still don't think beating that record is worth the danger. But, if it
was the activity that they wanted, not just the record, then we'd find
ways for them to do what the wanted, just not entirely alone.
-pam
> Why isn't is counter to unschooling to tell a person that even though she has demonstrated all the knowledge, abilities and judgment necessary to undertake a task, I can still say no?Are you under the impression that unschooling means saying an immediate
>
and unconditional "yes" to absolutely everything?
> When people come here asking about, say, a child who likes to climb, we offer all sorts of options to make it safer. We may ask that parent where the parent's fear or objections are coming from, and ask that parent to assess the situation and do what is possible to make it safer. There are still risks with climbing, but we accept those risks. Sailing is on that risk continuum, farther along than some people are willing to go. I think that is what scares people.I'm feeling ignored. The sailing doesn't scare me. It isn't the sailing
>
I'd be concerned with - it is the adolescent girl traveling around the
world for 2 years entirely on her own. I have three incredible
daughters - very very mature and responsible and unusually competent. I
would not have felt like it was right for me to support them in
traveling around the world for 2 years, from 13 to 15 years old, on
their own, in order to be able to claim to be the youngest ever to do
it. It doesn't matter if it is bicycling, flying, sailing, or walking -
I still don't think beating that record is worth the danger. But, if it
was the activity that they wanted, not just the record, then we'd find
ways for them to do what the wanted, just not entirely alone.
-pam
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 29, 2009, at 9:53 AM, Robin Krest wrote:
something like this is a general statement. Not all parents have pure
motives. Not all parents have good relationships with their kids.Not
all parents know how to respond when a child's idea needs a "Let's
find a safer way to explore that." It's not fair to kids to assume
all parents are as involved in their kids lives as gets discussed here.
Second, kids *in general* are different from adults. They are
biologically more dependent, less experienced with the world, less
able to understand the permanence of death and injury, under estimate
the riskiness of the world and over estimate their abilities to
handle risks they haven't experienced. Some of that is biological.
(Sandra has a good page on Piaget: http://sandradodd.com/piaget.)
Some is cultural because most children are raised to do what they're
told until they're "old enough" to make their own choices. (And
parents are flabbergasted when kids don't know how!) Wrong though
that sounds to unschoolers, it doesn't change the reality of most kids.
That doesn't mean it isn't possible for an extraordinary 13 yo to be
capable of sailing around the world solo. It means that unschooling
parents shouldn't jump to the conclusion that a 13 yo who wants to do
something cool and out of the box is necessarily coming from a
supportive environment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Adults with less knowledge and experience than Dekker go cruising.First, my statement that it's right for the authorities to check into
> Do we say merely because of age and lifetime experience, but
> lacking specific sailing experience, they are okay and she is not?
something like this is a general statement. Not all parents have pure
motives. Not all parents have good relationships with their kids.Not
all parents know how to respond when a child's idea needs a "Let's
find a safer way to explore that." It's not fair to kids to assume
all parents are as involved in their kids lives as gets discussed here.
Second, kids *in general* are different from adults. They are
biologically more dependent, less experienced with the world, less
able to understand the permanence of death and injury, under estimate
the riskiness of the world and over estimate their abilities to
handle risks they haven't experienced. Some of that is biological.
(Sandra has a good page on Piaget: http://sandradodd.com/piaget.)
Some is cultural because most children are raised to do what they're
told until they're "old enough" to make their own choices. (And
parents are flabbergasted when kids don't know how!) Wrong though
that sounds to unschoolers, it doesn't change the reality of most kids.
That doesn't mean it isn't possible for an extraordinary 13 yo to be
capable of sailing around the world solo. It means that unschooling
parents shouldn't jump to the conclusion that a 13 yo who wants to do
something cool and out of the box is necessarily coming from a
supportive environment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Krest
==Are you under the impression that unschooling means saying an immediate
and unconditional "yes" to absolutely everything?==
Oh, absolutely not! There are many times I hesitate, think over a request, make a decision. As an example, my son went without training wheels on his 2 wheel bike for the first time 2 weeks ago, and he immediately wanted to make a 3 mile bike ride with us that involved hills and major streets (5.75 y/o). We said no, suggested riding the bike around the neighborhood first to build up confidence and for us to assess his skills, talk about traffic safety and road rules. 1.5 weeks later we made the ride to the park and he did fine.
That's my point. We assessed his skills, made sure he could do it, and we did it together. Were he older, I would assess his ability to follow traffic laws, make decisions about crossing the busy streets safely, and once I thought he could do that he would be free to go.
==I'm feeling ignored. The sailing doesn't scare me. It isn't the sailing
I'd be concerned with - it is the adolescent girl traveling around the
world for 2 years entirely on her own.==
I am sorry you feel I have been ignoring this concern, as I thought the concern focused on the actual sailing. I do not know if she will be totally on her own at all times. While sailing, yes. But in port will she have a parent meet her? Or another adult? Will they shadow her for a bit to make sure she can handle customs, provisioning, repairs? I do not know these details and cannot address them.
Unschooling to me means being responsive to my child and his needs and desires. Being respectful of him as a person, and not dismissing something simply because of age. If I assess his abilities and think he is ready, if he has demonstrated his capabilities on progressively difficult levels, then how can I say no and still consider it unschooling? To me it then feels like what my parents would say: "Because I said so."
Robin K.
____________________________________________________________
Criminal Justice Degrees
Start your criminal justice career. Earn your degree 100% online!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=HCehKVoD5LDjyvezw3uFCQAAJ1CEY9dlfrMV_7AFXbVhyLAkAAQAAAAFAAAAAARWjj4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAoAAAAAA==
and unconditional "yes" to absolutely everything?==
Oh, absolutely not! There are many times I hesitate, think over a request, make a decision. As an example, my son went without training wheels on his 2 wheel bike for the first time 2 weeks ago, and he immediately wanted to make a 3 mile bike ride with us that involved hills and major streets (5.75 y/o). We said no, suggested riding the bike around the neighborhood first to build up confidence and for us to assess his skills, talk about traffic safety and road rules. 1.5 weeks later we made the ride to the park and he did fine.
That's my point. We assessed his skills, made sure he could do it, and we did it together. Were he older, I would assess his ability to follow traffic laws, make decisions about crossing the busy streets safely, and once I thought he could do that he would be free to go.
==I'm feeling ignored. The sailing doesn't scare me. It isn't the sailing
I'd be concerned with - it is the adolescent girl traveling around the
world for 2 years entirely on her own.==
I am sorry you feel I have been ignoring this concern, as I thought the concern focused on the actual sailing. I do not know if she will be totally on her own at all times. While sailing, yes. But in port will she have a parent meet her? Or another adult? Will they shadow her for a bit to make sure she can handle customs, provisioning, repairs? I do not know these details and cannot address them.
Unschooling to me means being responsive to my child and his needs and desires. Being respectful of him as a person, and not dismissing something simply because of age. If I assess his abilities and think he is ready, if he has demonstrated his capabilities on progressively difficult levels, then how can I say no and still consider it unschooling? To me it then feels like what my parents would say: "Because I said so."
Robin K.
____________________________________________________________
Criminal Justice Degrees
Start your criminal justice career. Earn your degree 100% online!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=HCehKVoD5LDjyvezw3uFCQAAJ1CEY9dlfrMV_7AFXbVhyLAkAAQAAAAFAAAAAARWjj4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAoAAAAAA==
Sandra Dodd
-=-He is supporting her enough to risk having custody taken away if
the court deems it so. How much more do we need to for them to prove
to the courts and the government that she can do this? -=-
If I slit my wrists to convince you that governments have laws, would
that "prove" it?
It would not.
It might be evidence that the dad believes it. It might be evidence
that the dad cares more about making a political statement than to be
with his daughter. She was going to miss some quality family time
anyway, being on a boat. Bad move, I think, for the dad to risk
losing custody. It seems evidence that he's not too attached to her.
Years back a mom went to jail rather than comply with government
requirements about homeschooling or something; I looked the other way
because it seemed horrible to me. To "defend" the idea that children
need their parents, she went to jail? I didn't even want to know who
was taking care of her kids and explaining to them how itproved she
loved them, to have voluntarily accepted so severe a separation.
-=- How much more do we need...-=-
Who is "WE"? This is the point you're missing. How much more do YOU
need? This list isn't making a decision about it. If you want to
affect that situation, this list is not the place to try to do it. We
could vote unanimously that she should go; we could ALL sign up to
risk having our own children's custody taken away if the courts don't
let that girl sail the world. WHY? It still wouldn't be the
mechanism that makes the difference.
-=- How much more do we need to for them to prove to the courts and
the government that she can do this? -=-
It seems you're confusing discussing an idea with political action,
and that your own emotions and biochemistry (which should be dedicated
to peace and joy for your own family) are being strung out and wasted
over someone else's situation which you might or might not be able to
affect, but the angst and indignation are inappropriate on this list
and at your house, in my opinion. My opinion about the list is more
important that my opinion about your house, but on behalf of your own
children, I think you should think much less about a 13 year old Dutch
girl whose father's willing to lose custody, and much more about your
own children.
-=-Adults with less knowledge and experience than Dekker go cruising.
Do we say merely because of age and lifetime experience, but lacking
specific sailing experience, they are okay and she is not? Who is more
at risk- the one who knows what they are doing, or the one who
doesn't?-=-
A person who allows a child to make a deadly decision is the most at
risk.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the court deems it so. How much more do we need to for them to prove
to the courts and the government that she can do this? -=-
If I slit my wrists to convince you that governments have laws, would
that "prove" it?
It would not.
It might be evidence that the dad believes it. It might be evidence
that the dad cares more about making a political statement than to be
with his daughter. She was going to miss some quality family time
anyway, being on a boat. Bad move, I think, for the dad to risk
losing custody. It seems evidence that he's not too attached to her.
Years back a mom went to jail rather than comply with government
requirements about homeschooling or something; I looked the other way
because it seemed horrible to me. To "defend" the idea that children
need their parents, she went to jail? I didn't even want to know who
was taking care of her kids and explaining to them how itproved she
loved them, to have voluntarily accepted so severe a separation.
-=- How much more do we need...-=-
Who is "WE"? This is the point you're missing. How much more do YOU
need? This list isn't making a decision about it. If you want to
affect that situation, this list is not the place to try to do it. We
could vote unanimously that she should go; we could ALL sign up to
risk having our own children's custody taken away if the courts don't
let that girl sail the world. WHY? It still wouldn't be the
mechanism that makes the difference.
-=- How much more do we need to for them to prove to the courts and
the government that she can do this? -=-
It seems you're confusing discussing an idea with political action,
and that your own emotions and biochemistry (which should be dedicated
to peace and joy for your own family) are being strung out and wasted
over someone else's situation which you might or might not be able to
affect, but the angst and indignation are inappropriate on this list
and at your house, in my opinion. My opinion about the list is more
important that my opinion about your house, but on behalf of your own
children, I think you should think much less about a 13 year old Dutch
girl whose father's willing to lose custody, and much more about your
own children.
-=-Adults with less knowledge and experience than Dekker go cruising.
Do we say merely because of age and lifetime experience, but lacking
specific sailing experience, they are okay and she is not? Who is more
at risk- the one who knows what they are doing, or the one who
doesn't?-=-
A person who allows a child to make a deadly decision is the most at
risk.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laureen
Heya!
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:05 AM, evawitsel<evawitsel@...> wrote:
> The legal problems she's in now are partly caused by the fact that she was picked up by British child protection services after she arrived in Lowestoft (UK) by herself. They alerted Dutch child protection services.
Yeah, that pretty much sucks. =(
As I've mentioned a few times, my family lives on a boat, and we hang
out with other boat families a lot. Boating encourages a different
form of self-reliance and confidence in children than land living
does. On land, if Rowan (who is 7) tries to drive the car, people are
nervous, but if he drives the boat (which he does regularly) he is
roundly encouraged by the other boaters. On land, when he picks up
power tools, people get nervous, but around boats, people ask "can
Rowan come help us fetch tools when we're working?" Those are just
examples. I think the root of it is that in a boat environment, kids
are integrated into the working of the home in a way that land
dwellers of any age are not, so they pick up many more skills with
regards to keeping the water out, the people in, and the boat moving
forward, than land kids in houses do. It's just a question of context.
What I've learned, over the years, is to let people have their own
fears, and to try to just pass the bean dip. Land people have all
kinds of fears of boats, oceans, water, and eventually it gets really
bothersome to have accepted a different kind of risk in my parenting.
If people press, I usually reply with something like "y'know, in a
house, you have electrical plugs, heavy things on shelves and in high
cabinets, hot water from taps and unsecured on stoves, power lines,
streets, trees, and neighbors, all of which are proven dangerous to
children in some context. And you've accepted those risks, so allow me
mine."
I've read the articles, but frankly, just like with Zac Sunderland,
the media is so whacked, I can't trust what I'm reading to give me the
real answers I'm seeking.
Is Laura doing this *to be* the youngest, or does Laura want to do
this now and would therefore be the youngest? Is it an unassisted solo
circumnavigation, or thoroughly assisted, as most circumnavigations
(of any age) are these days? What's her intended route? What's her
intended schedule? What's her boat's setup? There is a lot of fine
detail there that completely changes, from a sailing perspective,
whether this might be a good idea or a total disaster. And it's all
completely independent of age.
Every year, adults with little to no experience but plenty of cash buy
boats and head out around the world. I'll never forget the guy who had
never been on a boat, but came into a bunch of cash, bought a boat,
and headed out down the California Coast a few days after purchase.
He radioed the Coast Guard for directions to San Diego. Poor guy had
never heard of nautical charts, and didn't know how to use a GPS. He
figured he'd just head out and it'd all be obvious, but didn't realize
there'd be fog out there.
--
~~L!
s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
Sandra Dodd
-=- In a sailboat, one is
rarely on solid land. Ideally, never.==
-=-Ideally, a sailboat should be on solid ground once a year to clean
the bottom, check for hull, prop and rudder problems, change/replace
the sacrificial zincs, and have the bottom repainted.-=-
While it's being maintained, the sailer isn't in the sailboat.
Please respond only to what is written, not to what is mis-read, when
you can.
-=-In a sailboat, one is rarely on solid land. Ideally, never.
Everyone, please--read carefully.
Think before posting.
Proofread.
I've spent too much time in the past few days rejecting posts that say
nothing, or too much, or things totally unrelated to unschooling.
Keep the discussion on the topic and on the list.
If a post is returned, please don't argue about it. The other
moderators and I spend enough of our volunteer time keeping the list
smooth and peaceful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rarely on solid land. Ideally, never.==
-=-Ideally, a sailboat should be on solid ground once a year to clean
the bottom, check for hull, prop and rudder problems, change/replace
the sacrificial zincs, and have the bottom repainted.-=-
While it's being maintained, the sailer isn't in the sailboat.
Please respond only to what is written, not to what is mis-read, when
you can.
-=-In a sailboat, one is rarely on solid land. Ideally, never.
Everyone, please--read carefully.
Think before posting.
Proofread.
I've spent too much time in the past few days rejecting posts that say
nothing, or too much, or things totally unrelated to unschooling.
Keep the discussion on the topic and on the list.
If a post is returned, please don't argue about it. The other
moderators and I spend enough of our volunteer time keeping the list
smooth and peaceful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-= Not all parents have pure
motives. Not all parents have good relationships with their kids.Not
all parents know how to respond when a child's idea needs a "Let's
find a safer way to explore that." It's not fair to kids to assume
all parents are as involved in their kids lives as gets discussed
here.-=-
The neighbors behind us have supported their children's desire to deal
drugs, own guns and be obnoxious.
I was glad when the government sent people to question their decisions.
I was glad every time. <g>
-=-Second, kids *in general* are different from adults. They are
biologically more dependent, less experienced with the world, less
able to understand the permanence of death and injury, under estimate
the riskiness of the world and over estimate their abilities to
handle risks they haven't experienced. Some of that is biological. -=-
And biological or individual realities aside, the parents have social
and legal and moral obligations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
motives. Not all parents have good relationships with their kids.Not
all parents know how to respond when a child's idea needs a "Let's
find a safer way to explore that." It's not fair to kids to assume
all parents are as involved in their kids lives as gets discussed
here.-=-
The neighbors behind us have supported their children's desire to deal
drugs, own guns and be obnoxious.
I was glad when the government sent people to question their decisions.
I was glad every time. <g>
-=-Second, kids *in general* are different from adults. They are
biologically more dependent, less experienced with the world, less
able to understand the permanence of death and injury, under estimate
the riskiness of the world and over estimate their abilities to
handle risks they haven't experienced. Some of that is biological. -=-
And biological or individual realities aside, the parents have social
and legal and moral obligations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think this is the reason why the Dutch media are making such a
big deal out of the Laura case. Not only because what she wants to do
is dangerous, but mainly because not going to school is considered
very extreme in the Netherlands. -=-
Politically speaking, that makes sense.
Practically and legally speaking, if she only made it to England
before being picked up by child protective authorities, how many other
countries would consider it inapproprirate? She's too young to cross
the ocean on an airplane without special paperwork. I don't think the
largest court in the Netherlands could dictate to every other country
in which she might land that they have to let her stay alone and leave
alone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
big deal out of the Laura case. Not only because what she wants to do
is dangerous, but mainly because not going to school is considered
very extreme in the Netherlands. -=-
Politically speaking, that makes sense.
Practically and legally speaking, if she only made it to England
before being picked up by child protective authorities, how many other
countries would consider it inapproprirate? She's too young to cross
the ocean on an airplane without special paperwork. I don't think the
largest court in the Netherlands could dictate to every other country
in which she might land that they have to let her stay alone and leave
alone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If I assess his abilities and think he is ready, if he has
demonstrated his capabilities on progressively difficult levels, then
how can I say no and still consider it unschooling? To me it then
feels like what my parents would say: "Because I said so."-=-
Unschooling is about a life of learning, not a life of manipulation of
the parents by the children, nor of the children by the parents.
Unschooling isn't about ignoring laws and safety.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
demonstrated his capabilities on progressively difficult levels, then
how can I say no and still consider it unschooling? To me it then
feels like what my parents would say: "Because I said so."-=-
Unschooling is about a life of learning, not a life of manipulation of
the parents by the children, nor of the children by the parents.
Unschooling isn't about ignoring laws and safety.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
When people come here asking about, say, a child who likes to climb,
we offer all sorts of options to make it safer-=-
There's that "we" again.
Please rephrase so that you're speaking for yourself, or about the
list, but not for the list.
-=-I am sorry you feel I have been ignoring this concern, as I thought
the concern focused on the actual sailing-=-
You would not have thought the concern was the actual sailing had you
read other people's posts.
People who have had teenaged daughters have given honest answers to
your question about what people were worried about. You have one five-
year-old boy. If you can't understand what the parents of daughters
are writing about, that's fine. But don't keep arguing. It makes you
look thoughtless and it's filling the list up with unhelpful quantity.
Go for quality, or just read.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When people come here asking about, say, a child who likes to climb,
we offer all sorts of options to make it safer-=-
There's that "we" again.
Please rephrase so that you're speaking for yourself, or about the
list, but not for the list.
-=-I am sorry you feel I have been ignoring this concern, as I thought
the concern focused on the actual sailing-=-
You would not have thought the concern was the actual sailing had you
read other people's posts.
People who have had teenaged daughters have given honest answers to
your question about what people were worried about. You have one five-
year-old boy. If you can't understand what the parents of daughters
are writing about, that's fine. But don't keep arguing. It makes you
look thoughtless and it's filling the list up with unhelpful quantity.
Go for quality, or just read.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]