Unschoolers in public school
homeschoolbarefoot
My children, Isabella and Isaiah, have been unschooled for their entire lives. Isaiah is 13 and in 7th grade and Isabella is 8 and in 3rd. Due to divorce and other life changes I am unable to continue their home education and enrolled them in public school. They began last Wednesday. At first they both enjoyed school and Isaiah especially seems to stand up to the challenges, which are many. Both of my children feel that they are being singled out for being behind in writing skills. Isabella is not wanting to return and says that her teacher treats her differently from the other kids and treats her like a baby.
Previously when I spoke with her teacher I explained our unschooling belief and life style approuch to learning. I explained at the start of school and again the other day that Isabella is behind in writing (very far in fact) and below grade level in reading, however she loves reading and learning. When I told the teacher that we follow the children's lead in learning by following interests and have not focused on 'grade level' work because I knew they would learn it when they were in need and ready. She told me that they would not and would never be ready. She did not say this as an insult but rather, I believe, she was meaning that if not taught and taught in precise order then the information is lost ... or something on that line of thinking. I told her that I personally know of others who have learned in this manner and grown into successful adults as well as many more I have known of who learn everything they need and more. It was obvious neither of us believed the other.
Isabella's teacher has her practicing hand writing and the alphabet! I am so angry. Isabella knows the alphabet, she knows how to read and until recently she greatly enjoyed both. The teacher is having her practice the alphabet in order to 'correctly' write her brush strokes. For spelling she gave Isabella five words instead of the 18 she gave the rest of the class. Isabella was in tears. I am going to address this with her teacher and explain that the reason Isabella doesn't write well is not because she is incapable but rather that it was not our focus, and ask that she give Isabella more words to study. Isaiah's teacher also gave him far fewer spelling words and he too was very upset and in tears. In true determination he told me he didn't care what the teacher said and that he was going to complete the entire list and not just the ones she assigned him. What astounds me is that the schools / teachers fail (or appear to) to see what excellent learners my children are.
Heather
Previously when I spoke with her teacher I explained our unschooling belief and life style approuch to learning. I explained at the start of school and again the other day that Isabella is behind in writing (very far in fact) and below grade level in reading, however she loves reading and learning. When I told the teacher that we follow the children's lead in learning by following interests and have not focused on 'grade level' work because I knew they would learn it when they were in need and ready. She told me that they would not and would never be ready. She did not say this as an insult but rather, I believe, she was meaning that if not taught and taught in precise order then the information is lost ... or something on that line of thinking. I told her that I personally know of others who have learned in this manner and grown into successful adults as well as many more I have known of who learn everything they need and more. It was obvious neither of us believed the other.
Isabella's teacher has her practicing hand writing and the alphabet! I am so angry. Isabella knows the alphabet, she knows how to read and until recently she greatly enjoyed both. The teacher is having her practice the alphabet in order to 'correctly' write her brush strokes. For spelling she gave Isabella five words instead of the 18 she gave the rest of the class. Isabella was in tears. I am going to address this with her teacher and explain that the reason Isabella doesn't write well is not because she is incapable but rather that it was not our focus, and ask that she give Isabella more words to study. Isaiah's teacher also gave him far fewer spelling words and he too was very upset and in tears. In true determination he told me he didn't care what the teacher said and that he was going to complete the entire list and not just the ones she assigned him. What astounds me is that the schools / teachers fail (or appear to) to see what excellent learners my children are.
Heather
adesah
Heather, I'm so sorry your children are having to deal with this. It sounds like you and the teacher will be butting heads ad nauseum, and this is only the beginning of the school year. I think this is a power struggle for her. She sounds like she's exerting her power over not just your child but also over you. Personally, I would skip the power plays and go right to her supervisor. They need to understand the difference between what a person has learned and what they are capable of doing -- not just for your daughter's sake, but for all their students'.
I'm also wondering if there are perhaps some options available to you that you hadn't considered that could mean the kids could stay at home? Working from home, perhaps, or sending the children to a home educating friend's house while you're away?
Adesa
I'm also wondering if there are perhaps some options available to you that you hadn't considered that could mean the kids could stay at home? Working from home, perhaps, or sending the children to a home educating friend's house while you're away?
Adesa
Sandra Dodd
-=-My children, Isabella and Isaiah, have been unschooled for their
entire lives. Isaiah is 13 and in 7th grade and Isabella is 8 and in
3rd. Due to divorce and other life changes I am unable to continue
their home education and enrolled them in public school-=-
If they're in school, you should help them catch up and survive
there. You can't expect the teachers to treat them differently
because they used to be homeschooled. That's not how it works.
-=- What astounds me is that the schools / teachers fail (or appear
to) to see what excellent learners my children are. =-
Don't expect your kids to learn everything they know at school.
Continue to provide a rich environment. The teacher/school is running
an assembly line, and they're not looking for individual learning.
They're looking at group cooperation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
entire lives. Isaiah is 13 and in 7th grade and Isabella is 8 and in
3rd. Due to divorce and other life changes I am unable to continue
their home education and enrolled them in public school-=-
If they're in school, you should help them catch up and survive
there. You can't expect the teachers to treat them differently
because they used to be homeschooled. That's not how it works.
-=- What astounds me is that the schools / teachers fail (or appear
to) to see what excellent learners my children are. =-
Don't expect your kids to learn everything they know at school.
Continue to provide a rich environment. The teacher/school is running
an assembly line, and they're not looking for individual learning.
They're looking at group cooperation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ward Family
This article from the Life Without School Blog amy give you some ideas on how to approach a teacher faced with children transtioning to school
http://lifewithoutschool.typepad.com/lifewithoutschool/2008/03/cultural-exchan.html
Here are a couple of quotes:
"Homeschooled kids come from a different learning culture, with different timetables, methods, and expectations about life and learning. ...... In short, these kids march to a completely different drummer, which can be very disconcerting if you're not expecting it."
"School teachers assume that a child can move from a homeschool setting into the neighborhood public school as effortlessly as a child from the town down the road. While they expect some minor adjustments, they assume that within a few weeks the new child will be up to speed with the other children and behaving in the same ways as his peers. While they expect some variation from school to school, they assume that all third graders across the state and country are doing roughly the same sort of work in the same ways.
But if that same child were a foreign exchange student, the teacher's expectations would be quite different."
Cheers,
Julie Ward
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://lifewithoutschool.typepad.com/lifewithoutschool/2008/03/cultural-exchan.html
Here are a couple of quotes:
"Homeschooled kids come from a different learning culture, with different timetables, methods, and expectations about life and learning. ...... In short, these kids march to a completely different drummer, which can be very disconcerting if you're not expecting it."
"School teachers assume that a child can move from a homeschool setting into the neighborhood public school as effortlessly as a child from the town down the road. While they expect some minor adjustments, they assume that within a few weeks the new child will be up to speed with the other children and behaving in the same ways as his peers. While they expect some variation from school to school, they assume that all third graders across the state and country are doing roughly the same sort of work in the same ways.
But if that same child were a foreign exchange student, the teacher's expectations would be quite different."
Cheers,
Julie Ward
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think this is a power struggle for her. She sounds like she's
exerting her power over not just your child but also over you.
Personally, I would skip the power plays and go right to her
supervisor.-=-
How is that not a power play?
And the parent is not in a position of power, with the school.
The teacher was hired to do what schools do. She *has* power.
Parents have the power to take their children out of school, but not
to tell the school how to change to accommodate once-unschooled
children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
exerting her power over not just your child but also over you.
Personally, I would skip the power plays and go right to her
supervisor.-=-
How is that not a power play?
And the parent is not in a position of power, with the school.
The teacher was hired to do what schools do. She *has* power.
Parents have the power to take their children out of school, but not
to tell the school how to change to accommodate once-unschooled
children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<< It sounds like you and the teacher will be butting heads ad nauseum, and
this is only the beginning of the school year. I think this is a power
struggle for her. She sounds like she's exerting her power over not just
your child but also over you. Personally, I would skip the power plays and
go right to her supervisor. They need to understand the difference between
what a person has learned and what they are capable of doing -- not just for
your daughter's sake, but for all their students' >>>>
I find myself in the amazing position of defending a school teacher...
I don't think this teacher has the goal of exerting her power. Nor do I
think that Heather will find that approaching the teachers with the mind set
that they are doing so will help her have a positive relationship with these
people who are in charge of her children for 30 waking hours a week.
I can imagine the teacher talking to the others in the staff room or venting
to her spouse about how sorry she feels for these kids, what opportunities
they have missed, how behind they are, how tough it is to help them when
their mom is so recalcitrant and ignorant about education. She probably
believes that she is following the individualized learning philosophy you
have outlined by giving your dd tasks "tailored" to her specific deficits
(as she thinks of them).
It's not that she is necessarily a mean person, but that she is misguided,
from our POV certainly wrong about a lot, but most likely with good
intentions.
Her paradigm is so entirely different from unschooling, for example the
concept of "behind" being one that we reject. It is hard enough to change
our thinking and deschool ourselves, we who are actively pursuing
unschooling with the desire and motivation to do so. It is unrealistic to
expect understanding of it from someone whose whole life is about schooling,
with no reason to do that strenuous and challenging mental work.
What if, instead of trying to educate her about unschooling (probably a
doomed project) you stick to helping your kids reach their goals and
checking in with them about what those are. Maybe the greatest service you
can give them is being a listening ear for their frustrations.
I'm not sure that helping someone deal with her kid's teacher is a good
purpose for this list, but I seem to remember someone starting a list
specifically for unschoolers going to school for any reason - I think it was
planned as a support forum for distressed parents coping with their
children's choice to try school, but I bet there is better advice there on
dealing with teachers than I might have . Anyone remember the link?
<<<< I'm also wondering if there are perhaps some options available to you
that you hadn't considered that could mean the kids could stay at home?
Working from home, perhaps, or sending the children to a home educating
friend's house while you're away? >>>>>
This I totally endorse. With divorce as part of this picture, I am guessing
that your ex is insisting on school. I wonder if he would be satisfied with
a home tutoring option, or a home school curriculum. We know from
school-at-homers' experiences that often it takes a very few hours to cover
what it takes months to complete at school. Perhaps your kids would agree
that jumping through a few academic hoops at home to satisfy dad would be
worth it to secure the rest of day for their own stuff.
I truly hope that school is just a temporary blip for you.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
this is only the beginning of the school year. I think this is a power
struggle for her. She sounds like she's exerting her power over not just
your child but also over you. Personally, I would skip the power plays and
go right to her supervisor. They need to understand the difference between
what a person has learned and what they are capable of doing -- not just for
your daughter's sake, but for all their students' >>>>
I find myself in the amazing position of defending a school teacher...
I don't think this teacher has the goal of exerting her power. Nor do I
think that Heather will find that approaching the teachers with the mind set
that they are doing so will help her have a positive relationship with these
people who are in charge of her children for 30 waking hours a week.
I can imagine the teacher talking to the others in the staff room or venting
to her spouse about how sorry she feels for these kids, what opportunities
they have missed, how behind they are, how tough it is to help them when
their mom is so recalcitrant and ignorant about education. She probably
believes that she is following the individualized learning philosophy you
have outlined by giving your dd tasks "tailored" to her specific deficits
(as she thinks of them).
It's not that she is necessarily a mean person, but that she is misguided,
from our POV certainly wrong about a lot, but most likely with good
intentions.
Her paradigm is so entirely different from unschooling, for example the
concept of "behind" being one that we reject. It is hard enough to change
our thinking and deschool ourselves, we who are actively pursuing
unschooling with the desire and motivation to do so. It is unrealistic to
expect understanding of it from someone whose whole life is about schooling,
with no reason to do that strenuous and challenging mental work.
What if, instead of trying to educate her about unschooling (probably a
doomed project) you stick to helping your kids reach their goals and
checking in with them about what those are. Maybe the greatest service you
can give them is being a listening ear for their frustrations.
I'm not sure that helping someone deal with her kid's teacher is a good
purpose for this list, but I seem to remember someone starting a list
specifically for unschoolers going to school for any reason - I think it was
planned as a support forum for distressed parents coping with their
children's choice to try school, but I bet there is better advice there on
dealing with teachers than I might have . Anyone remember the link?
<<<< I'm also wondering if there are perhaps some options available to you
that you hadn't considered that could mean the kids could stay at home?
Working from home, perhaps, or sending the children to a home educating
friend's house while you're away? >>>>>
This I totally endorse. With divorce as part of this picture, I am guessing
that your ex is insisting on school. I wonder if he would be satisfied with
a home tutoring option, or a home school curriculum. We know from
school-at-homers' experiences that often it takes a very few hours to cover
what it takes months to complete at school. Perhaps your kids would agree
that jumping through a few academic hoops at home to satisfy dad would be
worth it to secure the rest of day for their own stuff.
I truly hope that school is just a temporary blip for you.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "adesah" <2homeboys@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:41 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschoolers in public school
> Heather, I'm so sorry your children are having to deal with this. .
>
>
> Adesa
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
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18:02:00
claire.horsley08
This sounds like a very difficult time of transition for both you and your kids. Firstly you are dealing with the upheaval and grief of divorce. Secondly, you are all adjusting to school culture after many years of a totally different learning paradigm. But you can still hold on to the basic principles of supporting and respecting your kids. While understanding that they do not want to be different from the other kids at school, you can also downplay the importance of things like spelling lists. Actually you can make a game out of a spelling list by making up crazy sentences with the words, putting them in a song, etc (if your kids enjoy stuff like that). Although you have decided that school is the best option at this time, it doesn't mean you have to buy in to the culture of 'achievement' and competition. Your biggest achievement at this point will be maintaining the wonderful relationship with your kids that unschooling has nurtured.
Claire
Claire
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm not sure that helping someone deal with her kid's teacher is a
good
purpose for this list-=-
I'm sure it's NOT a good use of the list.
For anyone not getting along well with a spouse who also really likes
the idea of unschooling, read here:
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
Divorce kicks kids' butts for life. Step parents are likely to do it
all over again. If your family is intact, try to keep it that way.
-=-<<<< I'm also wondering if there are perhaps some options available
to you
that you hadn't considered that could mean the kids could stay at home?
Working from home, perhaps, or sending the children to a home educating
friend's house while you're away? >>>>>
-=-This I totally endorse.-=-
My first thought when I read the original recommendation, though, was
how much could she afford to pay her friend? I wouldn't take kids
for babysitting rates if I was expected to be their supervising
homeschool teacher. (Assuming I was already doing school-at-home with
my own kids.)
If it's babysitting rates, or even letting my kids help another family
with younger children in exchange for staying there, that's different.
There are a LOT of hours in the week left over after full-time work
and sleep. There could still be enough hours for the mom to be with
her kids for unschooling purposes. Not ideal, but possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
good
purpose for this list-=-
I'm sure it's NOT a good use of the list.
For anyone not getting along well with a spouse who also really likes
the idea of unschooling, read here:
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
Divorce kicks kids' butts for life. Step parents are likely to do it
all over again. If your family is intact, try to keep it that way.
-=-<<<< I'm also wondering if there are perhaps some options available
to you
that you hadn't considered that could mean the kids could stay at home?
Working from home, perhaps, or sending the children to a home educating
friend's house while you're away? >>>>>
-=-This I totally endorse.-=-
My first thought when I read the original recommendation, though, was
how much could she afford to pay her friend? I wouldn't take kids
for babysitting rates if I was expected to be their supervising
homeschool teacher. (Assuming I was already doing school-at-home with
my own kids.)
If it's babysitting rates, or even letting my kids help another family
with younger children in exchange for staying there, that's different.
There are a LOT of hours in the week left over after full-time work
and sleep. There could still be enough hours for the mom to be with
her kids for unschooling purposes. Not ideal, but possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bhmjones
I'm a unschooling dad of two children, one school aged and the other only 2 years old. The school aged child has decided to try public school due to heavy influence from my spouse and my spouse's mother. As I'm fully convinced that unschooling does not preclude public school, as long as it is not forced on the child, I support her in giving it a try and I explained the difference between unschooling and schooling to my child best I could.
My child is actually excelling in public school and has even been placed in their [the school's] gifted student program. I support all this because the way I look at it is that 1.) the approach I'm taking towards public school is treating it as strewing which allows my child to take advantage of many resources I can't offer, and 2.) I'm treating this as one of my child's experiments as she may one day decide she no longer desires to participate in public school and come home but will have the experience of it nonetheless.
I'm in agreement with both Sandra and Robyn here in that you can't expect the teacher to understand unschooling nor expect them to change their attitude. All you can do is help your children adapt.
My child is actually excelling in public school and has even been placed in their [the school's] gifted student program. I support all this because the way I look at it is that 1.) the approach I'm taking towards public school is treating it as strewing which allows my child to take advantage of many resources I can't offer, and 2.) I'm treating this as one of my child's experiments as she may one day decide she no longer desires to participate in public school and come home but will have the experience of it nonetheless.
I'm in agreement with both Sandra and Robyn here in that you can't expect the teacher to understand unschooling nor expect them to change their attitude. All you can do is help your children adapt.
Robyn L. Coburn
> Working from home, perhaps, or sending the children to a home educatingI should have been clearer that I endorse the general idea of looking for
> friend's house while you're away? >>>>>
>
> -=-This I totally endorse.-=-
>
> My first thought when I read the original recommendation, though, was
> how much could she afford to pay her friend? >>>
more hitherto unconsidered out of the box solutions that might allow the
kids to be at home, rather than those specific ideas necessarily.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
graberamy
> -=-I think this is a power struggle for her. She sounds like she'sLast year my kids started public school at their own request. Lydia (11 at the time) had a really rigorous/ rote memorization type school and after a few weeks of adjustment seem to be doing ok. By the end of the year, if she had chosen, she would have been rolling right along. But she burnt out and switched to the Montessori school after the first quarter.
> exerting her power over not just your child but also over you.
> Personally, I would skip the power plays and go right to her
> supervisor.-=->>>
There's no talking to some teachers about unschooling. When she first started they wanted to test her because she couldn't find something (pretty basic) on a ma). I said that distorted xerox copy of a map that didn't even look like anything she's seen b4? I knew my local laws, I knew she didn't "have to be tested" (standardized that school year), so I said no.
I then wrote the teacher explaining how Lydia was (un)schooled up til then so they could know that she was there by choice and how much they should appreciate her!<bwg> They just didn't get it. They believe in teaching. I'm sure any "progress" (ie: getting good at hoop jumping) that Lyd did they took as a sign of their wonderful teaching skills.
Anyway, your options. Can you work at night so you can be home with them during the day?? Are there different types of schools in your district? Montessori, charter?? Here in Iowa those are public but they usually have a waiting list. I had my kids on a few of these waiting list just in case they ever wanted to go. Lydia switched to Montessori at the quarter and we had a WONDERFUL teacher. Really cool. Also in IA, we're allowed to dual enroll. The kids can go part time. Maybe that would satisfy your ex? In dual enrollment the parent is still responsible for the assessments.
But if you're stuck where you're at, the best thing you can do for your kids is help them learn the game of school. The hoop jumping will get easier for them and they'll catch up quickly. Unfortunately the teacher will think its because of her great skills.
amy g
iowa
yngeharol
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
<snip>
> For anyone not getting along well with a spouse who also really likes
> the idea of unschooling, read here:
> http://sandradodd.com/divorce
> http://sandradodd.com/spouses
>
> Divorce kicks kids' butts for life. Step parents are likely to do it
> all over again. If your family is intact, try to keep it that way.
>
While divorce isn't something anyone looks forward to, an unhealthy relationship, perpetuated beyond the point where the parents want to split "for the sake of the children" creates a toxic environment far worse than the divorce would. To try, genuinely try to heal the relationship, absolutely; but sometimes divorce is the right choice for the whole family. I've heard plenty of stories of chldren having wonderful and healing relationships with stepparents. Not all are evil.
Ynge
Sandra Dodd
-=-While divorce isn't something anyone looks forward to, an unhealthy
relationship, perpetuated beyond the point where the parents want to
split "for the sake of the children" creates a toxic environment far
worse than the divorce would. To try, genuinely try to heal the
relationship, absolutely; but sometimes divorce is the right choice
for the whole family. I've heard plenty of stories of chldren having
wonderful and healing relationships with stepparents. Not all are
evil.-=-
Did you read those links before writing this?
If this list becomes just a collection of mainstream platitudes, half
the best list members will drop off and go away.
Mainstream advice is one click away, all the time. Let's not bring it
all in here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
relationship, perpetuated beyond the point where the parents want to
split "for the sake of the children" creates a toxic environment far
worse than the divorce would. To try, genuinely try to heal the
relationship, absolutely; but sometimes divorce is the right choice
for the whole family. I've heard plenty of stories of chldren having
wonderful and healing relationships with stepparents. Not all are
evil.-=-
Did you read those links before writing this?
If this list becomes just a collection of mainstream platitudes, half
the best list members will drop off and go away.
Mainstream advice is one click away, all the time. Let's not bring it
all in here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/28/2009 11:20 AM, yngeharol wrote:
But kids are hurt and damaged.
If a parent is abusive, etc., then the damage done by staying in the
marriage could be worse than the damage done by divorce.
But if the parents have just fallen out of love, they could very likely
decide to continue their lives together and be a happy family and raise
happy kids and they might find that their love grows into a new and more
mature form if they do that.
-pam
> While divorce isn't something anyone looks forward to, an unhealthy relationship, perpetuated beyond the point where the parents want to split "for the sake of the children" creates a toxic environment far worse than the divorce would. To try, genuinely try to heal the relationship, absolutely; but sometimes divorce is the right choice for the whole family. I've heard plenty of stories of chldren having wonderful and healing relationships with stepparents. Not all are evil.Few are evil.
>
But kids are hurt and damaged.
If a parent is abusive, etc., then the damage done by staying in the
marriage could be worse than the damage done by divorce.
But if the parents have just fallen out of love, they could very likely
decide to continue their lives together and be a happy family and raise
happy kids and they might find that their love grows into a new and more
mature form if they do that.
-pam
yngeharol
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Ynge
>Links? What links? I wrote from what I have seen in my life.
> -=-While divorce isn't something anyone looks forward to, an unhealthy
> relationship, perpetuated beyond the point where the parents want to
> split "for the sake of the children" creates a toxic environment far
> worse than the divorce would. To try, genuinely try to heal the
> relationship, absolutely; but sometimes divorce is the right choice
> for the whole family. I've heard plenty of stories of chldren having
> wonderful and healing relationships with stepparents. Not all are
> evil.-=-
>
> Did you read those links before writing this?
> If this list becomes just a collection of mainstream platitudes,I don't see what I wrote as platitudes, just another viewpoint. It's certainly fine with me if other people's life experiences lead them to different conclusions about what is best for a healthy family. I'm truly sorry if something I wrote could cause the best, or any, list members to leave.
> the best list members will drop off and go away.
> Mainstream advice is one click away, all the time. Let's not bring itBefore I commit another gaffe, I want to make sure of the culture of this iist . . . is this a religious conservative group? Not meaning any offence, but I know that divorce is a huge no-no for those groups.
> all in here.
Ynge
yngeharol
>That's a beautiful scenario. When people can grow and change and learn more about themselves, yes, it's great. But I wouldn't want to see a world where there was no option for people to dissolve a union that was destroying them and their children, as infrequently as that option is truly needed.
> But if the parents have just fallen out of love, they could very likely
> decide to continue their lives together and be a happy family and raise
> happy kids and they might find that their love grows into a new and more
> mature form if they do that.
>
> -pam
>
Ynge
Sandra Dodd
-=Before I commit another gaffe, I want to make sure of the culture of
this iist . . . is this a religious conservative group? Not meaning
any offence, but I know that divorce is a huge no-no for those groups.-
=-
Before posting on ANY list, shouldn't you check the culture of the list?
This is not in any way whatsoever a religious conservative group.
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
I'm sure I've left these links here in the past day or two.
-=-> Did you read those links before writing this?
-=-Links? What links? I wrote from what I have seen in my life.-=-
But this list isn't about everything anyone has ever seen in their
lives. It's about unschooling, and that's very important.
-=-That's a beautiful scenario. When people can grow and change and
learn more about themselves, yes, it's great.-=-
When people cannot grow and change, they can't possibly unschool.
-=- But I wouldn't want to see a world where there was no option for
people to dissolve a union that was destroying them and their
children, as infrequently as that option is truly needed.-=-
No one is talking about changing laws or cultures or the world.
People are talking about the disadvantage to children when their
parents can't grow and change, and so they divorce. Blaming the
children for the divorce even backhandedly, as suggesting the union
was destroying children and so the divorce is better is not a step in
a more peaceful, whole direction.
A few people report having survived divorces okay. Millions of others
never recover fully, and one of the worst effects is that children
from divorces are more likely to divorce.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this iist . . . is this a religious conservative group? Not meaning
any offence, but I know that divorce is a huge no-no for those groups.-
=-
Before posting on ANY list, shouldn't you check the culture of the list?
This is not in any way whatsoever a religious conservative group.
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
I'm sure I've left these links here in the past day or two.
-=-> Did you read those links before writing this?
-=-Links? What links? I wrote from what I have seen in my life.-=-
But this list isn't about everything anyone has ever seen in their
lives. It's about unschooling, and that's very important.
-=-That's a beautiful scenario. When people can grow and change and
learn more about themselves, yes, it's great.-=-
When people cannot grow and change, they can't possibly unschool.
-=- But I wouldn't want to see a world where there was no option for
people to dissolve a union that was destroying them and their
children, as infrequently as that option is truly needed.-=-
No one is talking about changing laws or cultures or the world.
People are talking about the disadvantage to children when their
parents can't grow and change, and so they divorce. Blaming the
children for the divorce even backhandedly, as suggesting the union
was destroying children and so the divorce is better is not a step in
a more peaceful, whole direction.
A few people report having survived divorces okay. Millions of others
never recover fully, and one of the worst effects is that children
from divorces are more likely to divorce.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 28, 2009, at 2:20 PM, yngeharol wrote:
not whether there are instances where a divorce improved a family
life. The discussion had nothing to do with abusive husbands.
*If* someone wants to unschool and they're imagining it would be a
lot easier without a husband who strongly objects or downright
forbids, they should read the links.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
If someone wants her kids court ordered into school, then divorce has
a fairly good track record for that. If she wants to unschool, then
working on the relationship with her husband is a much better path
and undoubtedly a lot better for the kids. A really good list for
partnerships is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I've heard plenty of stories of chldren having wonderful andThe initial point was wanting to unschool when the husband objected
> healing relationships with stepparents. Not all are evil.
not whether there are instances where a divorce improved a family
life. The discussion had nothing to do with abusive husbands.
*If* someone wants to unschool and they're imagining it would be a
lot easier without a husband who strongly objects or downright
forbids, they should read the links.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
If someone wants her kids court ordered into school, then divorce has
a fairly good track record for that. If she wants to unschool, then
working on the relationship with her husband is a much better path
and undoubtedly a lot better for the kids. A really good list for
partnerships is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/28/2009 3:14 PM, yngeharol wrote:
all the time when they feel they are no longer in love. They are
attracted to other people and they indulge that attraction and have
affairs and that leads to divorce. It is common. It isn't even frowned
upon. Nobody bothers to ever say, "What about the children?" In fact,
to even suggest that someone consider staying in a marriage for the sake
of the children is considered to be sort of a throwback to the stone-age
of the 50's when women were trapped in marriages with no power. Just
like the post on this list - it is assumed you're some kind of
ultra-conservative Christian or something.
Well - I'm not a Christian and I'm not conservative. In fact, I'd call
myself a feminist. I have a graduate degree in a field in which fewer
than 2% of professionals are women (Econometrics). But I think people
who bring children into the world should put those children's well-being
above their urges to have affairs and get divorced just because they're
not blissfully happy. Marriage takes work. Lots of people I see who are
miserable in bad marriages are not and never were committed to doing the
work.
-pam
> That's a beautiful scenario. When people can grow and change and learn more about themselves, yes, it's great. But I wouldn't want to see a world where there was no option for people to dissolve a union that was destroying them and their children, as infrequently as that option is truly needed.Well - I live in California. In the world I live in, people get divorced
>
>
all the time when they feel they are no longer in love. They are
attracted to other people and they indulge that attraction and have
affairs and that leads to divorce. It is common. It isn't even frowned
upon. Nobody bothers to ever say, "What about the children?" In fact,
to even suggest that someone consider staying in a marriage for the sake
of the children is considered to be sort of a throwback to the stone-age
of the 50's when women were trapped in marriages with no power. Just
like the post on this list - it is assumed you're some kind of
ultra-conservative Christian or something.
Well - I'm not a Christian and I'm not conservative. In fact, I'd call
myself a feminist. I have a graduate degree in a field in which fewer
than 2% of professionals are women (Econometrics). But I think people
who bring children into the world should put those children's well-being
above their urges to have affairs and get divorced just because they're
not blissfully happy. Marriage takes work. Lots of people I see who are
miserable in bad marriages are not and never were committed to doing the
work.
-pam
Schuyler
This is a list on which unschooling is the main point. It's the goal. I'm sure there are religious conservative people who read and post, just as there are religious liberal people who read and post and atheists of liberal or conservative bent here as well. The point about divorce is that it becomes much, much more difficult to unschool if you are divorced. Ex-partners and courts can insist on school, making unschooling illegal. Economics can make it very difficult to have one parent at home with the children when there is only one parent in the household. If unschooling is a priority in your life, having your marriage or major relationship work makes it much easier to do. Much easier.
Schuyler
---------
Before I commit another gaffe, I want to make sure of the culture of this iist . . . is this a religious conservative group? Not meaning any offence, but I know that divorce is a huge no-no for those groups.
Ynge
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
---------
Before I commit another gaffe, I want to make sure of the culture of this iist . . . is this a religious conservative group? Not meaning any offence, but I know that divorce is a huge no-no for those groups.
Ynge
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
susandsb
I have not posted on this board before, but could not not respond to this thread. I have been divorced now for 2 years after being married for 19, we have 3 kids, 20, 15 and 11. We have been unschooling for about a year and a half.
***Divorce kicks kids' butts for life.***
This is a very sweeping statement that is unfair. Yes, it does kick many kids butts for life, certainly not all. Definitely not mine. I do not think my family is one in million that has come out of this divorce better. I know a handful off the top of my head that were better because if it. My ex and I tried for many years to make things work, counseling, books, lots of talking, compromises, we did not easily divorce nor did we do it due to an affair. But, now, we are happier, my kids included. I asked my 2 youngest last night about this, I told them a bit about the discussion here and they strongly disagreed that parents should stay married at virtually all costs. They are much happier with our life now. They see their dad several times a month, he lives only 5 minutes away, he and I get along well and have a good friendship now. But when he lived here, none of us were as happy. He was a very uninvolved dad, and a generally grouchy person. Everyones attitudes would change when it was almost time for dad to come home, not for the better.
***When people can grow and change and learn more
about themselves, yes, it's great. ***
It is because I was able to grow and change and learn more about myself that finally led to the divorce. We did grow apart and wanted VERY different things out of life. When my girls and I were talking last night, they said they would not want dad to move back in, they very much liked things the way they are now, that we as a family are much happier. They thought it would be a really bad idea for parents who were very unhappy together to stay together for the kids. They thought that would be a very awkward and uncomfortable situation to live in, they love the peace we have now.
***Step parents are likely to do it
all over again.***
In the 2 years I have been divorced, I have not dated, so can't say alot about that. I have chosen not to date because of the happiness we have in the way we are living now. I don't want to bring someone else in and disrupt what we have now. Someday, I will, but it will most definitely not be someone who is going to make things worse for them, finding someone that they can love and respect as well as me is a priority.
And, yes, I did read the links that were posted on divorce. What may be true for many families is certainly not true for all.
***Divorce kicks kids' butts for life.***
This is a very sweeping statement that is unfair. Yes, it does kick many kids butts for life, certainly not all. Definitely not mine. I do not think my family is one in million that has come out of this divorce better. I know a handful off the top of my head that were better because if it. My ex and I tried for many years to make things work, counseling, books, lots of talking, compromises, we did not easily divorce nor did we do it due to an affair. But, now, we are happier, my kids included. I asked my 2 youngest last night about this, I told them a bit about the discussion here and they strongly disagreed that parents should stay married at virtually all costs. They are much happier with our life now. They see their dad several times a month, he lives only 5 minutes away, he and I get along well and have a good friendship now. But when he lived here, none of us were as happy. He was a very uninvolved dad, and a generally grouchy person. Everyones attitudes would change when it was almost time for dad to come home, not for the better.
***When people can grow and change and learn more
about themselves, yes, it's great. ***
It is because I was able to grow and change and learn more about myself that finally led to the divorce. We did grow apart and wanted VERY different things out of life. When my girls and I were talking last night, they said they would not want dad to move back in, they very much liked things the way they are now, that we as a family are much happier. They thought it would be a really bad idea for parents who were very unhappy together to stay together for the kids. They thought that would be a very awkward and uncomfortable situation to live in, they love the peace we have now.
***Step parents are likely to do it
all over again.***
In the 2 years I have been divorced, I have not dated, so can't say alot about that. I have chosen not to date because of the happiness we have in the way we are living now. I don't want to bring someone else in and disrupt what we have now. Someday, I will, but it will most definitely not be someone who is going to make things worse for them, finding someone that they can love and respect as well as me is a priority.
And, yes, I did read the links that were posted on divorce. What may be true for many families is certainly not true for all.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have not posted on this board before, but could not not respond
to this thread. I have been divorced now for 2 years after being
married for 19, we have 3 kids, 20, 15 and 11. We have been
unschooling for about a year and a half.-=-
If you started unschooling after a divorce and your husband has agreed
to that, you're in a very exceptional situation. Good for you.
It doesn't change the fact that divorce is often deeply regretted by
the principles and can create problems for children for the rest of
their lives. For the purposes of helping people unschool, I don't
want the list to treat divorce as an equal option to an intact family.
And I'm atheist, by the way. And I know that people need peace and
confidence and safety to learn. Sometimes a rough marriage can
prevent learning. VERY often a stressful divorce or even a separation
will cause kids (in school or out) to become unable to learn, to pay
attention, or to exist calmly. Divorce is one of the most stressful
factors in any life but in the case of a child it can include
abandonment or the discovery that one or both parents has been
dishonest. It can involve them having to move to another house--also
a huge stressor for any human.
While it's comforting to divorced parents to think that it's no worse
than if they had figured out a way to make the marriage strong and
good, and I understand their need for comfort, when that comes at the
expense of children that should be on the table.
Most divorces are acrimonious, and one of the first tug-of-war things
to go is homeschooling of any sort. I've seen it at a distance and
I've seen it up close, and I've seen it repeatedly over many years.
When it's up to a judge, they opt for school. If either parent says
"school," school wins.
I've been a teacher and a friend to kids whose parents separated. I
have counselled adult men who were emotionally and socially stunted by
early divorces. I have a very close friend who was never calm and
safe until her 40's because of abuse from a string of temporary and
variously abusive step-parents (some official, some very live-in).
As to step parents, I knew vaguely there were real problems which it's
not politically correct to point to, but I read a brief little book
called The Truth about Cinderella: A Darwinian View of Parental Love.
It can often seen advantageous for a divorced parent to remarry, for
financial and home-maintenance reasons, but if it's not good for the
kids (statistically, even) then it can be yet another upheaval in a
child's life. And if the worst it is is an upheaval, that's good!
Sandra
to this thread. I have been divorced now for 2 years after being
married for 19, we have 3 kids, 20, 15 and 11. We have been
unschooling for about a year and a half.-=-
If you started unschooling after a divorce and your husband has agreed
to that, you're in a very exceptional situation. Good for you.
It doesn't change the fact that divorce is often deeply regretted by
the principles and can create problems for children for the rest of
their lives. For the purposes of helping people unschool, I don't
want the list to treat divorce as an equal option to an intact family.
And I'm atheist, by the way. And I know that people need peace and
confidence and safety to learn. Sometimes a rough marriage can
prevent learning. VERY often a stressful divorce or even a separation
will cause kids (in school or out) to become unable to learn, to pay
attention, or to exist calmly. Divorce is one of the most stressful
factors in any life but in the case of a child it can include
abandonment or the discovery that one or both parents has been
dishonest. It can involve them having to move to another house--also
a huge stressor for any human.
While it's comforting to divorced parents to think that it's no worse
than if they had figured out a way to make the marriage strong and
good, and I understand their need for comfort, when that comes at the
expense of children that should be on the table.
Most divorces are acrimonious, and one of the first tug-of-war things
to go is homeschooling of any sort. I've seen it at a distance and
I've seen it up close, and I've seen it repeatedly over many years.
When it's up to a judge, they opt for school. If either parent says
"school," school wins.
I've been a teacher and a friend to kids whose parents separated. I
have counselled adult men who were emotionally and socially stunted by
early divorces. I have a very close friend who was never calm and
safe until her 40's because of abuse from a string of temporary and
variously abusive step-parents (some official, some very live-in).
As to step parents, I knew vaguely there were real problems which it's
not politically correct to point to, but I read a brief little book
called The Truth about Cinderella: A Darwinian View of Parental Love.
It can often seen advantageous for a divorced parent to remarry, for
financial and home-maintenance reasons, but if it's not good for the
kids (statistically, even) then it can be yet another upheaval in a
child's life. And if the worst it is is an upheaval, that's good!
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 29, 2009, at 4:12 PM, susandsb wrote:
message "No one should ever divorce," and come to defend divorce.
No one has said no one should divorce. What's said is that there's a
huge statistical reality for children that doesn't get examined by
people who are struggling in a seemingly dead relationship and are
imagining that divorce will be a relief.
For one thing, for unschoolers divorce very likely means the end of
unschooling. Few judges are sympathetic to alternative education.
They are very likely to side with the most educationally conservative
parent whether that parent has custody or not.
Yes, there are exceptions, but the exceptions are not in the parent's
control. It's luck of the draw. Anyone contemplating divorce should
be realistic and imagine that divorce very likely means the kids will
end up back in school. (Then you'll be grateful if on the off chance
it doesn't happen rather than devastated when it does.)
And if you type divorce into the archives here you can read stories
of unschooling parents who had long lasting negative effects from
their parents' divorce. I do recall a few stories of people who were
grateful their parents divorced, but the negatives stories are more
numerous.
While that also sounds like a blanket "Don't ever divorce" it isn't
intended to be. (And it definitely doesn't say women should stay with
an abuser.) It says that this society doesn't treat children with
much respect. There's little information floating about in society
from children about what divorce did to them. The parents are
generally so grateful to be away from each other that they accept
whatever struggles the children are going through as just part of the
deal. That's hugely unfair (and damaging) to the kids.
If anyone's thinking divorce from an unsupportive spouse sounds good,
read the archives. Then go to the Peaceful Partnerships list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yes, it does kick many kids butts for life, certainly not all.Whenever this subject comes up, a bunch of people think they hear the
> Definitely not mine.
message "No one should ever divorce," and come to defend divorce.
No one has said no one should divorce. What's said is that there's a
huge statistical reality for children that doesn't get examined by
people who are struggling in a seemingly dead relationship and are
imagining that divorce will be a relief.
For one thing, for unschoolers divorce very likely means the end of
unschooling. Few judges are sympathetic to alternative education.
They are very likely to side with the most educationally conservative
parent whether that parent has custody or not.
Yes, there are exceptions, but the exceptions are not in the parent's
control. It's luck of the draw. Anyone contemplating divorce should
be realistic and imagine that divorce very likely means the kids will
end up back in school. (Then you'll be grateful if on the off chance
it doesn't happen rather than devastated when it does.)
And if you type divorce into the archives here you can read stories
of unschooling parents who had long lasting negative effects from
their parents' divorce. I do recall a few stories of people who were
grateful their parents divorced, but the negatives stories are more
numerous.
While that also sounds like a blanket "Don't ever divorce" it isn't
intended to be. (And it definitely doesn't say women should stay with
an abuser.) It says that this society doesn't treat children with
much respect. There's little information floating about in society
from children about what divorce did to them. The parents are
generally so grateful to be away from each other that they accept
whatever struggles the children are going through as just part of the
deal. That's hugely unfair (and damaging) to the kids.
If anyone's thinking divorce from an unsupportive spouse sounds good,
read the archives. Then go to the Peaceful Partnerships list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I think that you can make some assumptions about divorce. Children of divorced parents will be more likely to have less financial assistance from their parents than children of parents who stayed married. Children of divorced parents are less likely to have the same safety net to pull back to than are children of an intact marriage.
My parents divorced when I was 18, and I remember being relatively indifferent. They hadn't been particularly happy for a long time, they had both invested in their own lives separate from their lives as a couple, there was no sense that at 18 (I was living away from home) it would affect me that much. It affects me in gently sad ways a lot. There is a lot of my childhood, of my safety with them as parents, of my sense that where they are is home that is just not there. My dad moved quickly out of my childhood home. He dated other women quickly and remarried quickly. My mom invested in the home she lived in and didn't date in a way that I knew about for years. And didn't remarry for about 7 years. They rarely speak to one another. Not out of animosity, but because they have nothing to talk about.
When I think about my marriage with David, one of the more important aspects of it are the shared memories. The remember-whens. My parents don't have anyone to nudge back a memory of my brother's first steps, or how they felt when they finally got pregnant with me. And that loss, that loss of my childhood, it makes me sad. And it is very much a selfish loss. My parents have separated themselves entirely from each other and in doing so, in divvying up the family photos and the family heirlooms, they've taken bits of memories and made them almost inaccessible to each other and probably relatively difficult to get back for themselves.
I don't think that making a marriage work is always possible, but I do, strongly, believe that once you have children working to make it work is really, really important. And, more than that, I believe that there are very few divorces that are beneficial to the children.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: susandsb <susands@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 29 August, 2009 9:12:37 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschoolers in public school/divorce
I have not posted on this board before, but could not not respond to this thread. I have been divorced now for 2 years after being married for 19, we have 3 kids, 20, 15 and 11. We have been unschooling for about a year and a half.
***Divorce kicks kids' butts for life.***
This is a very sweeping statement that is unfair. Yes, it does kick many kids butts for life, certainly not all. Definitely not mine. I do not think my family is one in million that has come out of this divorce better. I know a handful off the top of my head that were better because if it. My ex and I tried for many years to make things work, counseling, books, lots of talking, compromises, we did not easily divorce nor did we do it due to an affair. But, now, we are happier, my kids included. I asked my 2 youngest last night about this, I told them a bit about the discussion here and they strongly disagreed that parents should stay married at virtually all costs. They are much happier with our life now. They see their dad several times a month, he lives only 5 minutes away, he and I get along well and have a good friendship now. But when he lived here, none of us were as happy. He was a very uninvolved dad, and a generally grouchy person. Everyones
attitudes would change when it was almost time for dad to come home, not for the better.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My parents divorced when I was 18, and I remember being relatively indifferent. They hadn't been particularly happy for a long time, they had both invested in their own lives separate from their lives as a couple, there was no sense that at 18 (I was living away from home) it would affect me that much. It affects me in gently sad ways a lot. There is a lot of my childhood, of my safety with them as parents, of my sense that where they are is home that is just not there. My dad moved quickly out of my childhood home. He dated other women quickly and remarried quickly. My mom invested in the home she lived in and didn't date in a way that I knew about for years. And didn't remarry for about 7 years. They rarely speak to one another. Not out of animosity, but because they have nothing to talk about.
When I think about my marriage with David, one of the more important aspects of it are the shared memories. The remember-whens. My parents don't have anyone to nudge back a memory of my brother's first steps, or how they felt when they finally got pregnant with me. And that loss, that loss of my childhood, it makes me sad. And it is very much a selfish loss. My parents have separated themselves entirely from each other and in doing so, in divvying up the family photos and the family heirlooms, they've taken bits of memories and made them almost inaccessible to each other and probably relatively difficult to get back for themselves.
I don't think that making a marriage work is always possible, but I do, strongly, believe that once you have children working to make it work is really, really important. And, more than that, I believe that there are very few divorces that are beneficial to the children.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: susandsb <susands@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 29 August, 2009 9:12:37 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschoolers in public school/divorce
I have not posted on this board before, but could not not respond to this thread. I have been divorced now for 2 years after being married for 19, we have 3 kids, 20, 15 and 11. We have been unschooling for about a year and a half.
***Divorce kicks kids' butts for life.***
This is a very sweeping statement that is unfair. Yes, it does kick many kids butts for life, certainly not all. Definitely not mine. I do not think my family is one in million that has come out of this divorce better. I know a handful off the top of my head that were better because if it. My ex and I tried for many years to make things work, counseling, books, lots of talking, compromises, we did not easily divorce nor did we do it due to an affair. But, now, we are happier, my kids included. I asked my 2 youngest last night about this, I told them a bit about the discussion here and they strongly disagreed that parents should stay married at virtually all costs. They are much happier with our life now. They see their dad several times a month, he lives only 5 minutes away, he and I get along well and have a good friendship now. But when he lived here, none of us were as happy. He was a very uninvolved dad, and a generally grouchy person. Everyones
attitudes would change when it was almost time for dad to come home, not for the better.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't think that making a marriage work is always possible, but I
do, strongly, believe that once you have children working to make it
work is really, really important. And, more than that, I believe that
there are very few divorces that are beneficial to the children. -=-
Making a marriage work is IMpossible if the couple's friends are
saying "Oh, just leave," or if people go to a discussion list and see
divorce defended as no worse than staying together.
Most divorces have to do with immaturity and selfishness on the part
of one or both of the parties. Having children doesn't make a person
mature. Having children DOES put a person in a position of trust and
responsibility for maintaining that child's peace and safety.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
do, strongly, believe that once you have children working to make it
work is really, really important. And, more than that, I believe that
there are very few divorces that are beneficial to the children. -=-
Making a marriage work is IMpossible if the couple's friends are
saying "Oh, just leave," or if people go to a discussion list and see
divorce defended as no worse than staying together.
Most divorces have to do with immaturity and selfishness on the part
of one or both of the parties. Having children doesn't make a person
mature. Having children DOES put a person in a position of trust and
responsibility for maintaining that child's peace and safety.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
UGH! Why didn't my post go through? retry...
> > Making a marriage work is IMpossible if the couple's friends areI've had a lot of divorced women tell me that it takes a strong woman to leave a man, but I think it's entirely opposite of that. Almost all of my adult friends have gone through divorce. Almost all of Chamille's friends come from divorced families. It's very sad!
> > saying "Oh, just leave," or if people go to a discussion list and see
> > divorce defended as no worse than staying together.
> > Most divorces have to do with immaturity and selfishness on the partPuting your own personal happiness above your children and spouse is selfish. If both partners put each other and their children first there probably wouldn't be a need to feel selfish. Loss of income, small children, loss of time can all be huge stressors in a marriage. If it's viewed as the temporary thing that it is, it's easier to work through and stay together. The marriage should be the thing that stays. When divorce plays into it, those other things last longer, less income, less time, and more needy children.
> > of one or both of the parties. Having children doesn't make a person
> > mature. Having children DOES put a person in a position of trust and
> > responsibility for maintaining that child's peace and safety.