is "being authentic" a reaction to this?
Sandra Dodd
This is from some directions for Non-Violent Communication on a site I
was looking at here, connected with a school. The school looks good
except for this. It's a John-Holt philosophy place, with the overlay
of NVC.
---------------------------------------------
Example:
Child: crying:"I lost my toy."
• A possible adult response "I think that you are feeling very sad."
• B possible wrong response: "I wouldn't worry too much, I am sure it
will turn up, it's here somewhere."
Response A is great! It is simple, it is a restatement of what has
been expressed.
Response B on the other hand...not so good.. This is YOUR experience
of the lost toy...(We ALL do this) but it is not the child's
experience (nor would it be your experience if you lost your keys or
mobile!!).
---------------------------------------------
If I lost my keys or my phone, and I said to any of you, or to my
husband, or to my children, "I lost my keys!" and if any of you or my
husband or children said "I think that you are feeling very said," I
wouldn't be sad at all. I would be somewhere in the range of
offended, irritated or furious. I expressed an honest need and got
"reflection." I could look in a mirror for reflection.
To use that sort of reflective communication with babies, with
toddlers, makes some sense. To use it with anyone over the age of
three seems to be... James Daniel, my host, called it "paint by
numbers communication." And even if you do that well, you still come
up with a very rudimentary image based on someone else's art.
So if someone writes a script and says "This is communication," that
someone is mistaken about communication. That is being in a very lame
play. I don't have time to be in a play.
So I was wondering if possibly the more recent noise of "authentic
communication" and "being authentic" is a reaction to the scripts
recommended by "NVC."
But back to the "possible responses," I would probably pick the child
up and comfort him and ask him what he thought we should do, or if he
wanted me to help look for the toy.
If someone has never stopped speaking as one human to another, and has
adopted principles involving respect and choices and partnership with
a child (or husband, or friend or whatever), then if they never needed
the crutch of something like NVC, then they probably don't need the
remedial stage of moving from a script to being "authentic."
Sheesh. It's a bandaid on top of a bigger bandage.
How about looking at healthy relationships and actually just
communicating?
Sandra
was looking at here, connected with a school. The school looks good
except for this. It's a John-Holt philosophy place, with the overlay
of NVC.
---------------------------------------------
Example:
Child: crying:"I lost my toy."
• A possible adult response "I think that you are feeling very sad."
• B possible wrong response: "I wouldn't worry too much, I am sure it
will turn up, it's here somewhere."
Response A is great! It is simple, it is a restatement of what has
been expressed.
Response B on the other hand...not so good.. This is YOUR experience
of the lost toy...(We ALL do this) but it is not the child's
experience (nor would it be your experience if you lost your keys or
mobile!!).
---------------------------------------------
If I lost my keys or my phone, and I said to any of you, or to my
husband, or to my children, "I lost my keys!" and if any of you or my
husband or children said "I think that you are feeling very said," I
wouldn't be sad at all. I would be somewhere in the range of
offended, irritated or furious. I expressed an honest need and got
"reflection." I could look in a mirror for reflection.
To use that sort of reflective communication with babies, with
toddlers, makes some sense. To use it with anyone over the age of
three seems to be... James Daniel, my host, called it "paint by
numbers communication." And even if you do that well, you still come
up with a very rudimentary image based on someone else's art.
So if someone writes a script and says "This is communication," that
someone is mistaken about communication. That is being in a very lame
play. I don't have time to be in a play.
So I was wondering if possibly the more recent noise of "authentic
communication" and "being authentic" is a reaction to the scripts
recommended by "NVC."
But back to the "possible responses," I would probably pick the child
up and comfort him and ask him what he thought we should do, or if he
wanted me to help look for the toy.
If someone has never stopped speaking as one human to another, and has
adopted principles involving respect and choices and partnership with
a child (or husband, or friend or whatever), then if they never needed
the crutch of something like NVC, then they probably don't need the
remedial stage of moving from a script to being "authentic."
Sheesh. It's a bandaid on top of a bigger bandage.
How about looking at healthy relationships and actually just
communicating?
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***This is from some directions for Non-Violent Communication on a site I
was looking at here, connected with a school.***
***"I think that you are feeling very sad."***
That makes me want to punch someone.<g>
***So I was wondering if possibly the more recent noise of "authentic
communication" and "being authentic" is a reaction to the scripts
recommended by "NVC."***
A couple different times I've seen "being authentic" used as an excuse when a parent didn't want to help a kid with something.
If the mom was going to be authentic then she wasn't going to sit and play chess with her kid if she didn't want to. That's part of some self improvement thought, I guess.
I've seen it used when a mom required something of her kid. To be her authentic self she needs to make him do some math every day.
And I've seen it used in a different way when a mom didn't want to be bothered about her kid. A child crying over a lost toy is feeling his authentic feelings which is part of healthy self understanding.
Her authentic self is maybe too self focused to realize that helping him find the toy, or getting him another, will help him feel the authentic feelings of happiness and trust.
I wondered a few years ago if "being authentic" came from the people who were disappointed in or disillusioned by all the power of positive thinking stuff. Positive thinking didn't work to solve their problems or make them happy and somehow they became convinced that thinking positively was a ploy of society to make people conform. Being authentic means you're special, you are real.
And about NVC stuff - I suspect if normal communication seems violent or threatening to some people they're suffering from emotional instability.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
was looking at here, connected with a school.***
***"I think that you are feeling very sad."***
That makes me want to punch someone.<g>
***So I was wondering if possibly the more recent noise of "authentic
communication" and "being authentic" is a reaction to the scripts
recommended by "NVC."***
A couple different times I've seen "being authentic" used as an excuse when a parent didn't want to help a kid with something.
If the mom was going to be authentic then she wasn't going to sit and play chess with her kid if she didn't want to. That's part of some self improvement thought, I guess.
I've seen it used when a mom required something of her kid. To be her authentic self she needs to make him do some math every day.
And I've seen it used in a different way when a mom didn't want to be bothered about her kid. A child crying over a lost toy is feeling his authentic feelings which is part of healthy self understanding.
Her authentic self is maybe too self focused to realize that helping him find the toy, or getting him another, will help him feel the authentic feelings of happiness and trust.
I wondered a few years ago if "being authentic" came from the people who were disappointed in or disillusioned by all the power of positive thinking stuff. Positive thinking didn't work to solve their problems or make them happy and somehow they became convinced that thinking positively was a ploy of society to make people conform. Being authentic means you're special, you are real.
And about NVC stuff - I suspect if normal communication seems violent or threatening to some people they're suffering from emotional instability.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana_burdick
***"I think that you are feeling very sad."***
That makes me want to punch someone.<g>
~~~~~
Ditto! This immediately pushed my buttons and I'm not even the kid who's lost the toy.
Thank you, Sandra and Deb for putting it so plainly. I've always felt uncomfortable with this type of response, but was never quite able to rectify what it was that was making me cringe.
-Dana
That makes me want to punch someone.<g>
~~~~~
Ditto! This immediately pushed my buttons and I'm not even the kid who's lost the toy.
Thank you, Sandra and Deb for putting it so plainly. I've always felt uncomfortable with this type of response, but was never quite able to rectify what it was that was making me cringe.
-Dana
Sandra Dodd
-=-Thank you, Sandra and Deb for putting it so plainly. I've always
felt uncomfortable with this type of response, but was never quite
able to rectify what it was that was making me cringe.-=-
Dana, it must just be that you and Deb and I are violent and
inauthentic. Bummer, huh?
I do things like as kids if they're okay rather than telling them it
seems they're hurt. I say "I really like that," instead of "you seem
proud of your work."
Think of that that would sound like to an adult! When my children
were young I made concessions to the fact that they were little, but
the more they understood the more we communicated happily and
directly. Authentically? Non-violently? Those questions didn't
come to my mind until later people told me I should be non-violent and
authentic.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
felt uncomfortable with this type of response, but was never quite
able to rectify what it was that was making me cringe.-=-
Dana, it must just be that you and Deb and I are violent and
inauthentic. Bummer, huh?
I do things like as kids if they're okay rather than telling them it
seems they're hurt. I say "I really like that," instead of "you seem
proud of your work."
Think of that that would sound like to an adult! When my children
were young I made concessions to the fact that they were little, but
the more they understood the more we communicated happily and
directly. Authentically? Non-violently? Those questions didn't
come to my mind until later people told me I should be non-violent and
authentic.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Three Mommies
I just want to hug the child and say, "Oh that so sucks. Want me to help you
find it?"
I always thought authentic included not patronizing and, to me, saying "I
think that you are feeling very sad" is completely patronizing.
Peace,
Jean Elizabeth
htpp:/3mommies.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
find it?"
I always thought authentic included not patronizing and, to me, saying "I
think that you are feeling very sad" is completely patronizing.
Peace,
Jean Elizabeth
htpp:/3mommies.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jill Parmer
> <<<Example:I think my kids would want to hit me; and they'd lose a lot of faith
> Child: crying:"I lost my toy."
>
> � A possible adult response "I think that you are feeling very sad."
> � B possible wrong response: "I wouldn't worry too much, I am sure it
> will turn up, it's here somewhere."
>
> Response A is great! It is simple, it is a restatement of what has
> been expressed.>>>
in my intelligence.
> <<<So I was wondering if possibly the more recent noise of "authenticPerhaps it's a reaction to NVC, but it seems the people using NVC are
> communication" and "being authentic" is a reaction to the scripts
> recommended by "NVC.">>>
also trying? to "be authentic." Isn't that a bit contradictory?
I think it's another personal growth fad.
I've seen "be authentic" used by some to prey upon or entice others'
insecurities, as in Be Authentic, I'll teach you how!....(for a
fee). Reminds me of snake oil peddlers.
> How about looking at healthy relationships and actually justWell then there could be many responses to the lost toy scenario,
> communicating?
depends on the situation, relationship, general disposition of the
kid, and how they want help.
Driving across country from one of the Live and Learn conferences,
when we returned home, we couldn't find Luke's new stuffed toy
dolphin. He was very upset, we comforted him. Then tried to figure
out where it could be. Retracing our steps, we located that
venturous dolphin at a pizza restaurant in Kansas City. So began the
saga of Little Gray One's many adventures, who's been left in more
places than a far away restaurant, and so far has always made it
home. We laugh when we reminisce those adventures.
~Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>who were disappointed in or disillusioned by all the power of positive
> >>I wondered a few years ago if "being authentic" came from the people
thinking stuff. Positive thinking didn't work to solve their problems or
make them happy and somehow they became convinced that thinking
positively was a ploy of society to make people conform. Being authentic
means you're special, you are real. >>>
I've always been a big fan of positive thinking. Positive thinking
isn't a be all end all to happiness though, and that is where I had to
come to an understanding within myself about it. There are just things
in life that get you down and cause unhappiness, no matter how hard you
try to think positively about things. As long as you don't get stuck in
sad, happiness comes around again. The more your daily life is focused
on that, the easier it is to pick yourself up from sad and get back to
happy, thinking positively helps.
Perhaps its just me, but when I get to that place where everything seems
to be going wrong, I can take each of those points of wrong and find
good ways to see things. I really wish I could live in a bigger house,
but I have a pretty decent place to live and I can find all the positive
things in it, instead of focusing on how much I'd like to get out of
this teeny little house and move into a bigger one, and simultaneously
put it out there that I WILL live in a better house soon, when the
timing is right.
>>> And about NVC stuff - I suspect if normal communication seemsviolent or threatening to some people they're suffering from emotional
instability.>>>
Kids that grow up with more traditional parenting, where they are not
treated with respect, where they are controlled and manipulated, will
grow up believing that this is "normal" communication. I see it all
around me with all kinds of people. It's a huge disconnect that adults
don't seem to make when relating to and raising their children. They
may even carry it over into their partner relationships. It's cyclical.
I find it to be violent, even when it's framed in a good for you or
nicey nice sort of way. Coersion and manipulation and disrespect are
violent, or easily escalate to violence.
I really believe that most people are simply lacking the tools to
communicate well, and NVC seems like a way to correct that, even though
I find it very problematic in so many ways, like the ways mentioned by
Deb.
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
If his toy is down the vent in the kitchen my saying "I think that you are feeling very sad." is beyond annoying!
Ria
>If a child came to me and said "I lost my toy." My response would be to say, "Where did you have it last?" Because his response to that might be to say "I dropped it down the vent in the kitchen floor."
> Child: crying:"I lost my toy."
>
> A possible adult response "I think that you are feeling very sad."
> B possible wrong response: "I wouldn't worry too much, I am sure it
> will turn up, it's here somewhere."
>
> Response A is great! It is simple, it is a restatement of what has
> been expressed.
>
If his toy is down the vent in the kitchen my saying "I think that you are feeling very sad." is beyond annoying!
Ria
Diana Strasser
I have also skim read NVC by Rosenberg and have found some of the 'scripts'
contrived and 'inauthentic' to my way of speaking. But having been brought
up 'mainstream' with stiff upper lip suppression of all sad/negative
feelings it helped me to not pass that on to my child. I have actually
recently discussed this with my 4 year old daughter and she said instead of
saying anything I should just hold her very tight until she stops crying
(over a lost toy or hurt knee etc.) and I thought that that was a great
solutions and that's what we will be doing now, lol but it can take quite a
while. I think she also thought that I was talking too much, lol.
I also think that NVC can have a place if you are looking for a 'role model'
to come out of the coercive, manipulating way of speaking to children and/or
adults.
Diana
Wales, UK
PS: It was nice Sandra to see you in person on Monday and I liked the apples
to apples game and yes, Tilda later said that she really liked the game but
that she wanted to stop playing it because we didn't have the butterfly
card, hmmm...
2009/8/5 Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
contrived and 'inauthentic' to my way of speaking. But having been brought
up 'mainstream' with stiff upper lip suppression of all sad/negative
feelings it helped me to not pass that on to my child. I have actually
recently discussed this with my 4 year old daughter and she said instead of
saying anything I should just hold her very tight until she stops crying
(over a lost toy or hurt knee etc.) and I thought that that was a great
solutions and that's what we will be doing now, lol but it can take quite a
while. I think she also thought that I was talking too much, lol.
I also think that NVC can have a place if you are looking for a 'role model'
to come out of the coercive, manipulating way of speaking to children and/or
adults.
Diana
Wales, UK
PS: It was nice Sandra to see you in person on Monday and I liked the apples
to apples game and yes, Tilda later said that she really liked the game but
that she wanted to stop playing it because we didn't have the butterfly
card, hmmm...
2009/8/5 Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> This is from some directions for Non-Violent Communication on a site I[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> was looking at here, connected with a school. The school looks good
> except for this. It's a John-Holt philosophy place, with the overlay
> of NVC.
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Example:
> Child: crying:"I lost my toy."
>
> � A possible adult response "I think that you are feeling very sad."
> � B possible wrong response: "I wouldn't worry too much, I am sure
> it
> will turn up, it's here somewhere."
>
> Response A is great! It is simple, it is a restatement of what has
> been expressed.
>
> Response B on the other hand...not so good.. This is YOUR experience
> of the lost toy...(We ALL do this) but it is not the child's
> experience (nor would it be your experience if you lost your keys or
> mobile!!).
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> If I lost my keys or my phone, and I said to any of you, or to my
> husband, or to my children, "I lost my keys!" and if any of you or my
> husband or children said "I think that you are feeling very said," I
> wouldn't be sad at all. I would be somewhere in the range of
> offended, irritated or furious. I expressed an honest need and got
> "reflection." I could look in a mirror for reflection.
>
> To use that sort of reflective communication with babies, with
> toddlers, makes some sense. To use it with anyone over the age of
> three seems to be... James Daniel, my host, called it "paint by
> numbers communication." And even if you do that well, you still come
> up with a very rudimentary image based on someone else's art.
>
> So if someone writes a script and says "This is communication," that
> someone is mistaken about communication. That is being in a very lame
> play. I don't have time to be in a play.
>
> So I was wondering if possibly the more recent noise of "authentic
> communication" and "being authentic" is a reaction to the scripts
> recommended by "NVC."
>
> But back to the "possible responses," I would probably pick the child
> up and comfort him and ask him what he thought we should do, or if he
> wanted me to help look for the toy.
>
> If someone has never stopped speaking as one human to another, and has
> adopted principles involving respect and choices and partnership with
> a child (or husband, or friend or whatever), then if they never needed
> the crutch of something like NVC, then they probably don't need the
> remedial stage of moving from a script to being "authentic."
> Sheesh. It's a bandaid on top of a bigger bandage.
>
> How about looking at healthy relationships and actually just
> communicating?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<But back to the "possible responses," I would probably pick the child
up and comfort him and ask him what he thought we should do, or if he
wanted me to help look for the toy.>>>>
Exactly, Sandra. If it were Jayn this explanation of her problem would be
her way of asking for help (ie finding it).
If otoh, we found the toy and she continued to cry or found something else
to cry about at once, I would then look deeper for some other stressor or
reason behind the crying. It might mean that she wanted me to sit next to
her with my arm around her for a while.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
up and comfort him and ask him what he thought we should do, or if he
wanted me to help look for the toy.>>>>
Exactly, Sandra. If it were Jayn this explanation of her problem would be
her way of asking for help (ie finding it).
If otoh, we found the toy and she continued to cry or found something else
to cry about at once, I would then look deeper for some other stressor or
reason behind the crying. It might mean that she wanted me to sit next to
her with my arm around her for a while.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Robin Bentley
>That's an authentic response from an unschooling parent. I wonder if
>
> But back to the "possible responses," I would probably pick the child
> up and comfort him and ask him what he thought we should do, or if he
> wanted me to help look for the toy.
those attracted the NVC scripted response are looking for ways to
overcome their own nasty parenting and this is the first thing they've
found that helps them do that? Unfortunately, these scripts can be
followed without the real internal work required to be a more peaceful
parent. I wonder if it doesn't just blow up in their faces at some
point.
>I find similarities in NVC-speak to the jargon of EST, Lifespring, and
>
> If someone has never stopped speaking as one human to another, and has
> adopted principles involving respect and choices and partnership with
> a child (or husband, or friend or whatever), then if they never needed
> the crutch of something like NVC, then they probably don't need the
> remedial stage of moving from a script to being "authentic."
> Sheesh. It's a bandaid on top of a bigger bandage.
"personal development" programs of the 70's and 80's. You were shown
how to manipulate people with words, but the scripts were couched in
"honest communication" terms. NVC seems just another way to manipulate
people, couched in peaceful or violent animal personas. Ick.
I imagine those immersed in NVC would argue with me in the most
peaceable terms - "I think that you must be feeling manipulated." As
my dd would say "Duh."
>Yeah. How about that, eh?
> How about looking at healthy relationships and actually just
> communicating?
I get inordinately pissed off by people coming to the list wanting us
to abide by *their* rules of communication (and maybe that's from my
days of being momentarily brainwashed by personal development gurus).
I don't go to NVC lists and start fights over how to talk to other
people. I'm interested in becoming a better unschooling parent, so I
come here for that.
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Coersion and manipulation and disrespect are
violent, or easily escalate to violence.-=-
Apparently too many Twinkies can easily escalate to murder, or driving
while sleepy can lead to manslaughter. But being sleepy isn't
manslaughter, and a Twinkie isn't murder.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
violent, or easily escalate to violence.-=-
Apparently too many Twinkies can easily escalate to murder, or driving
while sleepy can lead to manslaughter. But being sleepy isn't
manslaughter, and a Twinkie isn't murder.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I imagine those immersed in NVC would argue with me in the most
peaceable terms - "I think that you must be feeling manipulated." As
my dd would say "Duh."-=-
That made me laugh. Maybe it's their attempt at the "these are not
the droids you're looking for" Jedi mind trick or something. Maybe
they would NOT say "I think you must be feeling manipulated." It
would seem like an admission, maybe. They might need to say something
like "I think peaceful communication is unfamiliar to you and that
frightens you."
Aren't there some characters like that in movies from the 60's and
70's? Farenheit 451, Logan's Run or some of those? Soothing voices
intended to stun you long enough to recapture you?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
peaceable terms - "I think that you must be feeling manipulated." As
my dd would say "Duh."-=-
That made me laugh. Maybe it's their attempt at the "these are not
the droids you're looking for" Jedi mind trick or something. Maybe
they would NOT say "I think you must be feeling manipulated." It
would seem like an admission, maybe. They might need to say something
like "I think peaceful communication is unfamiliar to you and that
frightens you."
Aren't there some characters like that in movies from the 60's and
70's? Farenheit 451, Logan's Run or some of those? Soothing voices
intended to stun you long enough to recapture you?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I also think that NVC can have a place if you are looking for a
'role model'
to come out of the coercive, manipulating way of speaking to children
and/or
adults.-=-
If people use it as a temporary tool, rather than a final destination,
that's not so bad.
The worst thing I've seen is people who love that coming to this
discussion or another similar place and using those "rules" on me or
other people who aren't playing.
I was glad to meet you too, Diana. If you do get an Apples to Apples
game, make some extra butterfly cards!
Sandra
'role model'
to come out of the coercive, manipulating way of speaking to children
and/or
adults.-=-
If people use it as a temporary tool, rather than a final destination,
that's not so bad.
The worst thing I've seen is people who love that coming to this
discussion or another similar place and using those "rules" on me or
other people who aren't playing.
I was glad to meet you too, Diana. If you do get an Apples to Apples
game, make some extra butterfly cards!
Sandra
Rachael Reese
I have to admit, most of the groups we socialize with use NVC and in the beginning I remember feeling like I was going to burst out laughing every time I heard someone talk that way to their child. I've gotten more used to it now.
I do agree that it sounds really patronizing and fake. The one thing I do really like about it, up to age 4ish is that it helps small children give a name to their feelings. My three year old can regularly be heard saying things like "I'm so frustrated with this puzzle!" or "I feel so lonely when I sleep by myself." He's really learned to verbalize exactly what he feels and I think that's awesome.
I do agree that it sounds really patronizing and fake. The one thing I do really like about it, up to age 4ish is that it helps small children give a name to their feelings. My three year old can regularly be heard saying things like "I'm so frustrated with this puzzle!" or "I feel so lonely when I sleep by myself." He's really learned to verbalize exactly what he feels and I think that's awesome.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] is "being authentic" a reaction to this?
-=-I imagine those immersed in NVC would argue with me in the most
peaceable terms - "I think that you must be feeling manipulated." As
my dd would say "Duh."-=-
That made me laugh. Maybe it's their attempt at the "these are not
the droids you're looking for" Jedi mind trick or something. Maybe
they would NOT say "I think you must be feeling manipulated." It
would seem like an admission, maybe. They might need to say something
like "I think peaceful communication is unfamiliar to you and that
frightens you."
Aren't there some characters like that in movies from the 60's and
70's? Farenheit 451, Logan's Run or some of those? Soothing voices
intended to stun you long enough to recapture you?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.44/2283 - Release Date: 08/05/09 05:57:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>Yes! That's what they'd say. Then I'd have to feel ashamed that I'm
> They might need to say something
> like "I think peaceful communication is unfamiliar to you and that
> frightens you."
unfamiliar with it and embarrassed that I'm frightened by it. Then
embrace it wholeheartedly with "Of course! You're right. Help me
understand and not be afraid." Pffft.
>Or HAL in 2001: A Space Odyssey <g>.
>
> Aren't there some characters like that in movies from the 60's and
> 70's? Farenheit 451, Logan's Run or some of those? Soothing voices
> intended to stun you long enough to recapture you?
>
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
My transition was from old, knee-jerk, not-at-all-nice scripts; to knowing I
needed something else -- so I looked into NVC and the How to Talk and
Siblings books; to realizing I couldn't script my relationships so I picked
up other voices to carry in my head, other people to BE when diana was
clueless; to what I now consider authentic parenting: Parenting (ha! LIVING)
in line with the principles of unschooling. Hayden's seen/experienced this
life-long process and I think the "Mom's a Human Being" perspective is of
utmost importance. That is the part that makes ME the mom, instead of the
robot (parroting either the old tapes or the new script).
I may not have the *right* thing to say, but I'm not afraid to admit it; nor
am I afraid of giving myself a do-over and continuing to practice what I
want to be good at.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
needed something else -- so I looked into NVC and the How to Talk and
Siblings books; to realizing I couldn't script my relationships so I picked
up other voices to carry in my head, other people to BE when diana was
clueless; to what I now consider authentic parenting: Parenting (ha! LIVING)
in line with the principles of unschooling. Hayden's seen/experienced this
life-long process and I think the "Mom's a Human Being" perspective is of
utmost importance. That is the part that makes ME the mom, instead of the
robot (parroting either the old tapes or the new script).
I may not have the *right* thing to say, but I'm not afraid to admit it; nor
am I afraid of giving myself a do-over and continuing to practice what I
want to be good at.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-I also think that NVC can have a place if you are looking for a 'role
> model' to come out of the coercive, manipulating way of speaking to children
> and/or adults.-=-
>
> If people use it as a temporary tool, rather than a final destination,
> that's not so bad.
>
> The worst thing I've seen is people who love that coming to this
> discussion or another similar place and using those "rules" on me or
> other people who aren't playing.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My three year old can regularly be heard saying things like "I'm so
frustrated with this puzzle!" or "I feel so lonely when I sleep by
myself." He's really learned to verbalize exactly what he feels and I
think that's awesome. -=-
That can happen without someone learning scripts, though, or
subscribing to a certain belief system or even buying a book, can't it?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
frustrated with this puzzle!" or "I feel so lonely when I sleep by
myself." He's really learned to verbalize exactly what he feels and I
think that's awesome. -=-
That can happen without someone learning scripts, though, or
subscribing to a certain belief system or even buying a book, can't it?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachael Reese
I'm sure it could be learned elsewhere, although I'm not sure how. (Doesn't matter though--my kids have learned plenty of things and I can't pinpoint the "how" of it.) Although my other children who weren't immersed in NVC weren't that way....more of the screaming, crying, tantruming, aggressive behavior without any words to verbalize what they were in need of. He also might just be more verbal than they were. I guess we'll never know!
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] is "being authentic" a reaction to this?
-=-My three year old can regularly be heard saying things like "I'm so
frustrated with this puzzle!" or "I feel so lonely when I sleep by
myself." He's really learned to verbalize exactly what he feels and I
think that's awesome. -=-
That can happen without someone learning scripts, though, or
subscribing to a certain belief system or even buying a book, can't it?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm sure it could be learned elsewhere, although I'm not sure how. -
=-
I learned to be really present with my children and to care what they
felt and to meet their needs from La Leche League. Many have.
It's a central part of radical unschooling, to treat your child
respectfully, as a real person, not as 'just a kid.'
Many have seen and considered and shared and modelled the natural
effects of actually caring about the other people in their families
from unschoolers or other people in their lives.
If a family makes the change from a script without really changing
inside, being a different, better person who understands the changes,
rather than imagining being a giraffe.
For small children in a school setting, I have no doubt it can be a
useful tool. It's better than some other conditions in school
settings. For example, from one article:
"I went to my study and returned with my "work bag," which holds my
giraffe and jackal puppets. I put the giraffe puppet on my right hand
and the jackal puppet on my left. I told the giraffe puppet what was
going on for me, and she offered me empathy by guessing my feelings
and needs. The jackal, meanwhile, interjected to my son every once in
a while. "Arrrrr!" he would start, in the angriest voice I could
muster. "Hitting will solve it!" My son looked concerned and said to
the jackal: "No, don't hit! Talk about it!" This was a role reversal!
My son was educating the jackal on the merits of nonviolent conflict
resolution."
Once people are old enough not to need hand-puppet role play, it seems
to me that pretending to be a giraffe isn't as good as direct
information about being a *person.*
-=-I'm sure it could be learned elsewhere, although I'm not sure how. -
=-
On this list, on Joyce's site on just about every page
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
And these come to mind without searching the 800 or so unschooling
pages on my site:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
http://sandradodd.com/peace
http://sandradodd.com/respect
http://sandradodd.com/rules
where Deb Lewis is quoted with these good points:
**************
A principle internally motivates you to do the things that seem good
and right. People develop principles by living with people with
principles and seeing the real benefits of such a life.
A rule externally compels you, through force, threat or punishment, to
do the things someone else has deemed good or right. People follow or
break rules.
**************
If someone "becomes NVC" how easy is it to fail and be wrong? What
happens to those who slip into jackal behavior? Some might realize it
and feel remorse and that will become an internal reason to be
kinder. For others, I'm guessing, their real fear will be whether any
of their NVC teachers/mediators/friends saw it and will judge them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
=-
I learned to be really present with my children and to care what they
felt and to meet their needs from La Leche League. Many have.
It's a central part of radical unschooling, to treat your child
respectfully, as a real person, not as 'just a kid.'
Many have seen and considered and shared and modelled the natural
effects of actually caring about the other people in their families
from unschoolers or other people in their lives.
If a family makes the change from a script without really changing
inside, being a different, better person who understands the changes,
rather than imagining being a giraffe.
For small children in a school setting, I have no doubt it can be a
useful tool. It's better than some other conditions in school
settings. For example, from one article:
"I went to my study and returned with my "work bag," which holds my
giraffe and jackal puppets. I put the giraffe puppet on my right hand
and the jackal puppet on my left. I told the giraffe puppet what was
going on for me, and she offered me empathy by guessing my feelings
and needs. The jackal, meanwhile, interjected to my son every once in
a while. "Arrrrr!" he would start, in the angriest voice I could
muster. "Hitting will solve it!" My son looked concerned and said to
the jackal: "No, don't hit! Talk about it!" This was a role reversal!
My son was educating the jackal on the merits of nonviolent conflict
resolution."
Once people are old enough not to need hand-puppet role play, it seems
to me that pretending to be a giraffe isn't as good as direct
information about being a *person.*
-=-I'm sure it could be learned elsewhere, although I'm not sure how. -
=-
On this list, on Joyce's site on just about every page
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
And these come to mind without searching the 800 or so unschooling
pages on my site:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
http://sandradodd.com/peace
http://sandradodd.com/respect
http://sandradodd.com/rules
where Deb Lewis is quoted with these good points:
**************
A principle internally motivates you to do the things that seem good
and right. People develop principles by living with people with
principles and seeing the real benefits of such a life.
A rule externally compels you, through force, threat or punishment, to
do the things someone else has deemed good or right. People follow or
break rules.
**************
If someone "becomes NVC" how easy is it to fail and be wrong? What
happens to those who slip into jackal behavior? Some might realize it
and feel remorse and that will become an internal reason to be
kinder. For others, I'm guessing, their real fear will be whether any
of their NVC teachers/mediators/friends saw it and will judge them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melissa_hice
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
Suddenly, it dawned on me -- there must be a deeper reason for this insistance that I brush his teeth exactly the way he wanted me to. I recalled that earlier in the day he had lost his little toy fish at the pool. Actually, I think some child took it home. We searched the pool, asked everyone (had several people searching with us), looked in the grass, etc. and just could not find it. At the time, my son was upset but went back to swimming and it seemed like he had accepted it.
When I realized this, I said to him, "You're upset about losing your toy fish, aren't you?" He just burst out crying and said, "Mommy, why would someone steal my fish?" We talked about why a child might take something that didn't belong to him/her. We talked about how maybe next time we can "protect" our special belongings. I assured him that we would look for another little fish somewhere. We thought about making "lost" posters for the fish.
The insistance on me brushing his teeth "correctly" just went away. He let me finish his teeth and we snuggled until he fell asleep.
I thought about this incident and wondered if maybe, since my son has a need to feel in control, if maybe the loss of the toy fish made him feel a loss of control and that maybe his insistance that I brush his teeth exactly the way he wanted me to was his way of gaining back some of his control.
It's really cool for me because this is the first time I actually "got it". I was always reacting to my son's need for control, and this time, I looked deeper and tried to see things from his point of view. I hope this will get easier to do. Now that I'm aware of how it all works, maybe it will.
Melissa
>That reminds me of a recent incident with my 7 year old son. I was brushing his teeth for him (that's a whole 'nother story complete with reflux problems, 8 crowns, etc.) and he was insisting that I brush his bottom teeth with a certain "sweeping" motion that I just could not do right. I tried for 30 minutes and no matter how I did it, I just could not satisfy him. He kept crying and getting really angry.
>> If otoh, we found the toy and she continued to cry or found something else
> to cry about at once, I would then look deeper for some other stressor or
> reason behind the crying. It might mean that she wanted me to sit next to
> her with my arm around her for a while.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
Suddenly, it dawned on me -- there must be a deeper reason for this insistance that I brush his teeth exactly the way he wanted me to. I recalled that earlier in the day he had lost his little toy fish at the pool. Actually, I think some child took it home. We searched the pool, asked everyone (had several people searching with us), looked in the grass, etc. and just could not find it. At the time, my son was upset but went back to swimming and it seemed like he had accepted it.
When I realized this, I said to him, "You're upset about losing your toy fish, aren't you?" He just burst out crying and said, "Mommy, why would someone steal my fish?" We talked about why a child might take something that didn't belong to him/her. We talked about how maybe next time we can "protect" our special belongings. I assured him that we would look for another little fish somewhere. We thought about making "lost" posters for the fish.
The insistance on me brushing his teeth "correctly" just went away. He let me finish his teeth and we snuggled until he fell asleep.
I thought about this incident and wondered if maybe, since my son has a need to feel in control, if maybe the loss of the toy fish made him feel a loss of control and that maybe his insistance that I brush his teeth exactly the way he wanted me to was his way of gaining back some of his control.
It's really cool for me because this is the first time I actually "got it". I was always reacting to my son's need for control, and this time, I looked deeper and tried to see things from his point of view. I hope this will get easier to do. Now that I'm aware of how it all works, maybe it will.
Melissa
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>ROFL
> When my children
> were young I made concessions to the fact that they were little, but
> the more they understood the more we communicated happily and
> directly. Authentically? Non-violently? Those questions didn't
> come to my mind until later people told me I should be non-violent and
> authentic.
>
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
something like, "You're crying because you lost your toy."
Is my child actually feeling sad? Perhaps he isn't. He might be
feeling angry or frustrated. Do I actually think he's feeling sad?
Who knows what I'll be thinking? What do I actually observe with my
own eyes? What is actually happening between me and my child that I
need to respond to?
How can I say to him what somebody else who is not us says I should
say I think and be "authentic"???
The mind boggles.
Perhaps NVC scripts might be useful for helping parents out of a hole
they can't get out of by themselves, but once they're out, "NVC" is
for amateurs.
IMHO, naturally.
Bob
>No it isn't. A restatement of what has been expressed would be
> This is from some directions for Non-Violent Communication on a site I
> was looking at here, connected with a school. The school looks good
> except for this. It's a John-Holt philosophy place, with the overlay
> of NVC.
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Example:
> Child: crying:"I lost my toy."
>
> � A possible adult response "I think that you are feeling very sad."
> � B possible wrong response: "I wouldn't worry too much, I am sure it
> will turn up, it's here somewhere."
>
> Response A is great! It is simple, it is a restatement of what has
> been expressed.
something like, "You're crying because you lost your toy."
Is my child actually feeling sad? Perhaps he isn't. He might be
feeling angry or frustrated. Do I actually think he's feeling sad?
Who knows what I'll be thinking? What do I actually observe with my
own eyes? What is actually happening between me and my child that I
need to respond to?
How can I say to him what somebody else who is not us says I should
say I think and be "authentic"???
The mind boggles.
Perhaps NVC scripts might be useful for helping parents out of a hole
they can't get out of by themselves, but once they're out, "NVC" is
for amateurs.
IMHO, naturally.
Bob
katherand2003
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
Just realizing how my communication and thoughts *were* violent or at least destructive was enough to get me on my way. If a NVC book is the first time anyone sees that, then it's useful. The scripts can be dispensed with though in my opinion because natural speech will evolve from the simple realization of how one is communicating ineffectively as well as unnecessarily harshly.
The only use for the scripts that I found was the idea of rephrasing to myself what the needs to be met are as derived from what people say. In my head. Not aloud. I don't have to think with my mouth. If I'm wrong about the need a person is trying to get met, then I'll find out when I say something like "oh can I get you a glass of water then?".. MY kid will say what he wants "no I want milk." Oh ok. Easy enough. He's thirsty. Without me having to go through telling him that it seems to me he's thirsty or hungry or whatever.
I don't identify well with NVC because it seems to assume people are either/or NOT both/and. I'm sometimes a "jaguar" sometimes a "giraffe" in NVC lingo. I'm not one or the other but both sometimes all mixed together and confusedly. I guess I find it easier to think of things in terms of being more human when I hear the word authentic. I'm a human being. Uncovering how to be more myself in human terms is easier than living up to something that isn't me or my child.
>This is not a bad thought, Jenny. One that seem to me lacking in much of NVC. I have the feeling that NVC isn't particularly interested in the idea that people are special let alone real. There's all that separatist talk about giraffes and jaguars (I think those were the animals). It's presented as neutral yet the feeling of judgment is very much there.
>
> >
> > >>I wondered a few years ago if "being authentic" came from the people
> who were disappointed in or disillusioned by all the power of positive
> thinking stuff. Positive thinking didn't work to solve their problems or
> make them happy and somehow they became convinced that thinking
> positively was a ploy of society to make people conform. Being authentic
> means you're special, you are real. >>>
>>>And about NVC stuff - I suspect if normal communication seemsviolent or threatening to some people they're suffering from emotional instability.>>>
>Kids that grow up with more traditional parenting, where they are not treated with respect, where they are controlled and manipulated, will grow up believing that this is "normal" communication. I see it all around me with all kinds of people. It's a huge disconnect that adults don't seem to make when relating to and raising their children. They may even carry it over into their partner relationships. It's cyclical.<Absolutely. I've experienced this as a child and a married adult. It's the way I grew up and it's the way I easily thoughtlessly automatically reacted to every situation I didn't like because that's how anything I did that others didn't like when I was a kid was reacted to. That's what I learned.
> I really believe that most people are simply lacking the tools tocommunicate well, and NVC seems like a way to correct that, even though I find it very problematic in so many ways, like the ways mentioned by Deb.<
Just realizing how my communication and thoughts *were* violent or at least destructive was enough to get me on my way. If a NVC book is the first time anyone sees that, then it's useful. The scripts can be dispensed with though in my opinion because natural speech will evolve from the simple realization of how one is communicating ineffectively as well as unnecessarily harshly.
The only use for the scripts that I found was the idea of rephrasing to myself what the needs to be met are as derived from what people say. In my head. Not aloud. I don't have to think with my mouth. If I'm wrong about the need a person is trying to get met, then I'll find out when I say something like "oh can I get you a glass of water then?".. MY kid will say what he wants "no I want milk." Oh ok. Easy enough. He's thirsty. Without me having to go through telling him that it seems to me he's thirsty or hungry or whatever.
I don't identify well with NVC because it seems to assume people are either/or NOT both/and. I'm sometimes a "jaguar" sometimes a "giraffe" in NVC lingo. I'm not one or the other but both sometimes all mixed together and confusedly. I guess I find it easier to think of things in terms of being more human when I hear the word authentic. I'm a human being. Uncovering how to be more myself in human terms is easier than living up to something that isn't me or my child.
katherand2003
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I never used NVC scripts to talk to others and I don't recall any other scripts either. It's hard for me to remember the durned lyrics to songs I like --I wish I was better at that-- let alone scripts! I've never been a good memorizer.
>I would have to say one of Karl's things has been to name what he's feeling. That comes from knowing (like breathing) that his feelings are important. Brian and I decided Karl's feelings are important to consider very early on. We grew up in families where that definitely wasn't the case. Feelings are such an big part of communicating.
> -=-My three year old can regularly be heard saying things like "I'm so
> frustrated with this puzzle!" or "I feel so lonely when I sleep by
> myself." He's really learned to verbalize exactly what he feels and I
> think that's awesome. -=-
>
> That can happen without someone learning scripts, though, or
> subscribing to a certain belief system or even buying a book, can't it?
>
> Sandra
I never used NVC scripts to talk to others and I don't recall any other scripts either. It's hard for me to remember the durned lyrics to songs I like --I wish I was better at that-- let alone scripts! I've never been a good memorizer.
Jenny C
> > > >>I wondered a few years ago if "being authentic" came from thepeople
> > who were disappointed in or disillusioned by all the power ofpositive
> > thinking stuff. Positive thinking didn't work to solve theirproblems or
> > make them happy and somehow they became convinced that thinkingauthentic
> > positively was a ploy of society to make people conform. Being
> > means you're special, you are real. >>>Just to be clear, I didn't write that, Deb did! I did a cut and paste
>
> This is not a bad thought, Jenny.
because I liked it and wanted to comment on it!
>>> I don't identify well with NVC because it seems to assume people areeither/or NOT both/and. I'm sometimes a "jaguar" sometimes a "giraffe"
in NVC lingo. I'm not one or the other but both sometimes all mixed
together and confusedly. I guess I find it easier to think of things in
terms of being more human when I hear the word authentic. I'm a human
being. Uncovering how to be more myself in human terms is easier than
living up to something that isn't me or my child.>>>
The either/or thing gets in the way a lot doesn't it? I remember a
quote from a Tom Robbins book, that went something like this "there are
two kinds of people in the world, those that believe there are only two
kinds of people and those that don't". There are always many more sides
to everything, people included!
Jenny C
> -=- Coersion and manipulation and disrespect areI pulled this from Katherine's post, the first bit quoted from Deb's
> violent, or easily escalate to violence.-=-
>
> Apparently too many Twinkies can easily escalate to murder, or driving
> while sleepy can lead to manslaughter. But being sleepy isn't
> manslaughter, and a Twinkie isn't murder.
>
post and the second from Katherine:
> >>>And about NVC stuff - I suspect if normal communication seemsinstability.>>>
> violent or threatening to some people they're suffering from emotional
>least destructive was enough to get me on my way. If a NVC book is the
> Just realizing how my communication and thoughts *were* violent or at
first time anyone sees that, then it's useful. >>>
I had meant to comment yesterday too, but got distracted... NVC uses the
term violent to describe communication. I thought about that a lot
yesterday. Violence infers physicality. I can easily see how words and
thoughts turn to action, and words and thoughts that are coersive,
manipulative, and disrespectful, can easily turn to violent actions.
I've seen it, but, like Sandra so aptly pointed out, the words and
communication themselves are not violence, violence is violence.
It's interesting that NVC uses, or rather mis uses language and perhaps
that is it's biggest problematic aspect. It muddies thought and direct
clear communication. So, while it's great that a parent can recognize
that a child is terribly upset about a missing toy, the clearest
communication that a child could receive from the parent, would be
actions taken to recover the missing toy. Some parents, and this is
probably where the recognition of feelings comes in, wouldn't even
notice or care that a child was upset about a missing toy, the child is
just being a whiner, crying and making a bunch of irritating noise, and
the parent feels compelled to stop the irritating noise. It's a very
selfish existence to dismiss others in this manner, yet it happens and
it's very commonplace.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>(Doesn't matter though--my kids have learned plenty of things and I
> I'm sure it could be learned elsewhere, although I'm not sure how.
can't pinpoint the "how" of it.) Although my other children who weren't
immersed in NVC weren't that way....more of the screaming, crying,
tantruming, aggressive behavior without any words to verbalize what they
were in need of. He also might just be more verbal than they were. I
guess we'll never know!
>Perhaps your other kids who weren't immersed in NVC, didn't have a mom
who could name feelings either. The kids you had that did name
feelings, had a mom that learned how to name feelings and how to help
her kids name feelings. NVC may have helped you learn how to do that,
but I've never immersed myself in NVC, and I've learned how to help my
kids name feelings simply by talking to them like real human beings.
Feelings exist, it's a simple and plain fact of human nature, in which
our kids aren't exempt from. Helping them navigate that part of
themselves is a part of helping them grow and mature, in the same way
that you help them know that stoves can be hot and crossing streets can
be dangerous.
Robin Bentley
>And maybe some empathy or sympathy or a cuddle. Does the NVC response
> It's interesting that NVC uses, or rather mis uses language and
> perhaps
> that is it's biggest problematic aspect. It muddies thought and
> direct
> clear communication. So, while it's great that a parent can recognize
> that a child is terribly upset about a missing toy, the clearest
> communication that a child could receive from the parent, would be
> actions taken to recover the missing toy.
stop at identifying feelings? The original cut-and-paste Sandra posted
didn't mention what happens after the "reflection." Does anyone know?
Robin B.
[email protected]
No it doesn't stop at feelings. The 'process' is
observations
feelings
needs
requests
observations
feelings
needs
requests