Labels sometimes help...
Maryann Malkoff
Regarding the PPP thread, on a tangent about labels, I have a 16 yo son
who is "on the spectrum," was diagnosed before he was two, and his
symptoms completely match the text book versions of Asperger Syndrome.
Until he was eleven, I refused to let anyone label him. I fought every
diagnosis - believing that a label didn't describe my son -the only
thing therapists should concern themselves with was treatments that
would help him navigate his world better. Then I read a book "Freaks,
Geeks and Asperger Syndrome." The author, a 13 yo boy, recommending
telling the child, because "it was better to know." My son's entire
life changed when we started openly talking about Asperger's. The books
explaining things he didn't understand , his own desire to accept a
label, and the ability to talk to others about himself in a way they
could understand, meant the world to Dave.
Just like some people don't understand how my son sees his world, Dave
didn't understand that his neurobiological wiring and the way he
experiences sensory input and processes and integrates information is
different from how others "NT's (neurotypicals)" experience their
worlds.
I agree that I grow weary of parents (and school officials which is why
I unschool) using a diagnosis as an excuse, but I've had a real shift
these last five years about what I'll say to people in public...
On a side note -- I often wonder about how Aspergers fits within Autism
- and if it will stay as part of the spectrum as we learn more about the
brain. In our family, it is clearly genetic, so while he is uniquely
his own person, my brother and father have been good role models about
career and lifestyle choices.
The mom of a son who doesn't wish to fixed - since he doesn't believe he
is broken... Just another reason why I love the freedom to learn
freely!
Mary Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
who is "on the spectrum," was diagnosed before he was two, and his
symptoms completely match the text book versions of Asperger Syndrome.
Until he was eleven, I refused to let anyone label him. I fought every
diagnosis - believing that a label didn't describe my son -the only
thing therapists should concern themselves with was treatments that
would help him navigate his world better. Then I read a book "Freaks,
Geeks and Asperger Syndrome." The author, a 13 yo boy, recommending
telling the child, because "it was better to know." My son's entire
life changed when we started openly talking about Asperger's. The books
explaining things he didn't understand , his own desire to accept a
label, and the ability to talk to others about himself in a way they
could understand, meant the world to Dave.
Just like some people don't understand how my son sees his world, Dave
didn't understand that his neurobiological wiring and the way he
experiences sensory input and processes and integrates information is
different from how others "NT's (neurotypicals)" experience their
worlds.
I agree that I grow weary of parents (and school officials which is why
I unschool) using a diagnosis as an excuse, but I've had a real shift
these last five years about what I'll say to people in public...
On a side note -- I often wonder about how Aspergers fits within Autism
- and if it will stay as part of the spectrum as we learn more about the
brain. In our family, it is clearly genetic, so while he is uniquely
his own person, my brother and father have been good role models about
career and lifestyle choices.
The mom of a son who doesn't wish to fixed - since he doesn't believe he
is broken... Just another reason why I love the freedom to learn
freely!
Mary Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kasey Frazier
Thank you very much for that. I also do not think my son is "broken" and needs fixing. I love him and see him as he is. But when your child is "typically" developing and then one morning wakes up with no verbal skills, eye contact and is screaming for 4-6 hours at a time you feel helpless as a parent. So I took him to Childrens Hospital and he saw many specialist to find out why he lost every skill he has naturally obtained. It worried me. Then I found out almost 18 mo. later that he is diagnosed with Autism, it does help a bit. Autism is not who he is, it is a label but it does help others understand the way he responds to them.
I love my son very much and Unschooling is a wonderful thing for him. It allows him to be him, there is no telling him to be "normal" or to stop making sounds when he is stressed out or to stop playing with his cars in an "inappropriate way".( He likes to just stare at the wheels while he rolls them very close to his face on a table).
I love my son very much and Unschooling is a wonderful thing for him. It allows him to be him, there is no telling him to be "normal" or to stop making sounds when he is stressed out or to stop playing with his cars in an "inappropriate way".( He likes to just stare at the wheels while he rolls them very close to his face on a table).
--- In [email protected], "Maryann Malkoff" <maryann@...> wrote:
>
> Regarding the PPP thread, on a tangent about labels, I have a 16 yo son
> who is "on the spectrum," was diagnosed before he was two, and his
> symptoms completely match the text book versions of Asperger Syndrome.
>
>
>
> Until he was eleven, I refused to let anyone label him. I fought every
> diagnosis - believing that a label didn't describe my son -the only
> thing therapists should concern themselves with was treatments that
> would help him navigate his world better. Then I read a book "Freaks,
> Geeks and Asperger Syndrome." The author, a 13 yo boy, recommending
> telling the child, because "it was better to know." My son's entire
> life changed when we started openly talking about Asperger's. The books
> explaining things he didn't understand , his own desire to accept a
> label, and the ability to talk to others about himself in a way they
> could understand, meant the world to Dave.
>
>
>
> Just like some people don't understand how my son sees his world, Dave
> didn't understand that his neurobiological wiring and the way he
> experiences sensory input and processes and integrates information is
> different from how others "NT's (neurotypicals)" experience their
> worlds.
>
>
>
> I agree that I grow weary of parents (and school officials which is why
> I unschool) using a diagnosis as an excuse, but I've had a real shift
> these last five years about what I'll say to people in public...
>
>
>
> On a side note -- I often wonder about how Aspergers fits within Autism
> - and if it will stay as part of the spectrum as we learn more about the
> brain. In our family, it is clearly genetic, so while he is uniquely
> his own person, my brother and father have been good role models about
> career and lifestyle choices.
>
>
>
> The mom of a son who doesn't wish to fixed - since he doesn't believe he
> is broken... Just another reason why I love the freedom to learn
> freely!
>
>
>
> Mary Ann
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-The mom of a son who doesn't wish to fixed - since he doesn't
believe he
is broken... Just another reason why I love the freedom to learn
freely!-=-
I do think it's important to clarify that the child about whom this
was written isn't unschooled. I know there are times and ways that
it's advantageous to have a label.
For the mom who described Asperger's in great detail, all those things
are known and familiar to me. We know some Asperger's kids very
well. My nephew has those traits. I know all that. Many people
do. Few of those people know unschooling.
From the point of view of unschooling, no matter what or how a child
learns or is, if the parent helps him where is is, in a way that he'll
understand in that moment, and lets him make choices about what to do
and whether to stop or continue, and how to go about doing it, will
find the child learning.
Learning is what unschooling is about.
Today I'm still at the London Unschooling conference. A couple talked
to me for a long time, and a mom sat and talked afterwards, and both
about having Asperger's Syndrome kids. Here are some of the things I
told them:
Rather than comparing him to the other kids in their home ed groups,
remember to compare him to the way he might have been had he been in
school.
Keep him safe and as sheltered as he wants, and when he's eighteen
he'll care in different ways and the parents will be able to advise
him about social situations in a way younger children wouldn't
understand no matter how "normal" they might be, but that he might, at
18 or so, understand and care about. Everyday things like shaking
hands and introducing himself.
If the parent of a ten year old imagines that non-Asperger's kids are
all socially suave, that's not true. Comparing a child to an imagined
ideal isn't great. Comparing him to other kids isn't much better.
Compare him to the real pain you see in other kids who have no
choices. Compare him to the way he might have been.
Find the things he does like and that he's good at, no matter how
"narrow," and learn to see all the connections and history and
geography and art and music that can connect to that, one way or
another. Let him grow in his own way and at his own speed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
believe he
is broken... Just another reason why I love the freedom to learn
freely!-=-
I do think it's important to clarify that the child about whom this
was written isn't unschooled. I know there are times and ways that
it's advantageous to have a label.
For the mom who described Asperger's in great detail, all those things
are known and familiar to me. We know some Asperger's kids very
well. My nephew has those traits. I know all that. Many people
do. Few of those people know unschooling.
From the point of view of unschooling, no matter what or how a child
learns or is, if the parent helps him where is is, in a way that he'll
understand in that moment, and lets him make choices about what to do
and whether to stop or continue, and how to go about doing it, will
find the child learning.
Learning is what unschooling is about.
Today I'm still at the London Unschooling conference. A couple talked
to me for a long time, and a mom sat and talked afterwards, and both
about having Asperger's Syndrome kids. Here are some of the things I
told them:
Rather than comparing him to the other kids in their home ed groups,
remember to compare him to the way he might have been had he been in
school.
Keep him safe and as sheltered as he wants, and when he's eighteen
he'll care in different ways and the parents will be able to advise
him about social situations in a way younger children wouldn't
understand no matter how "normal" they might be, but that he might, at
18 or so, understand and care about. Everyday things like shaking
hands and introducing himself.
If the parent of a ten year old imagines that non-Asperger's kids are
all socially suave, that's not true. Comparing a child to an imagined
ideal isn't great. Comparing him to other kids isn't much better.
Compare him to the real pain you see in other kids who have no
choices. Compare him to the way he might have been.
Find the things he does like and that he's good at, no matter how
"narrow," and learn to see all the connections and history and
geography and art and music that can connect to that, one way or
another. Let him grow in his own way and at his own speed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maryann Malkoff
I couldn't agree with Sandra more:
Find the things he does like and that he's good at, no matter how
"narrow," and learn to see all the connections and history and
geography and art and music that can connect to that, one way or
another. Let him grow in his own way and at his own speed.
I share that with parents who come to me for advice about AS - love
them, accept them, help them to do what they love and help them to build
the connections. And then I advise them to the same for all their
children and for all the people in their lives - help the people you
care about do what they are good at!
If all the doctors, specialists, therapists, nutritionists, etc. had
said this to me each time when we came to work them - it would have made
such a difference in our lives! For many years we taught to compensate
for Dave's weaknesses. He obsessively read books - we were "in trouble"
all the time at traditional school. They tortured him for not being
able to hold a pencil and creating art projects on demand (haven't
computers made a joke about learning cursive and you should see him whip
out a power point presentation!).
Around 9 or 10 he started to be able to recognize if he had food on his
face after eating, he began to looked into our faces (I wept the first
time he looked deeply into my eyes - I had no idea his eyes were such a
beautiful color of green), he could recognize teachers and classmates
when they were at the grocery store (but wouldn't know their names), he
could ask for help in a library, he stopped melting away to be found
after much searching under a picnic table, in a quiet corner of a
community center behind the bean bag chairs, in between racks of
clothing in stores...
Once we had some basic life skills were mastered we let him direct his
learning. He's been "traditional school free" since after two months of
sixth grade he was too stressed out to return. He's worked with tutors
in areas that interested him in math, science and history. Now that he
is 16, he's been taking 6-8 units of college classes on line for the
last two years.
As we travel across America I make it mandatory that both teens join us
at the art, science and history museums - but once they see the film or
hear the orientation talk, they are free to roam. They must attend the
tours offered by the rangers at the national parks and participate in
local activities like fish boils, polka festivals, ferry riding,
sledding in the snow or the white sands, farmers markets etc. Dave is
required to do household activities - he hooks up the tow car, cleans
the tile floors (he hates to vacuum - too loud), grocery shops and
washing the family laundry which his sister folds and puts away.
I meet people who don't think that studying the Oregon Trail by
following it as meaningful as reading about it in a book. These same
types of people think that spending two days at Abraham Lincoln's
library isn't much of a learning experience if there isn't a test at the
end. I wonder if they'd consider experiencing a blizzard,
sleet/snow/black ice, torrential rains, flooding, tornados, a part of a
science curriculum? Dave decides what he wants to learn in the places
we are at traveling too. Both kids read the travel books and help us
decide where to "adventure" to next. But when we are there, I insist
that we live fully - do corn mazes, tour Nasa, hike Canyon de Chelly,
visit Thomas Edison's birthplace, visit mineral pools.
I always laugh about who is an unschooler. The rest of the world views
that Dave doesn't "do school." I am not able to teach trigonometry at a
college level and the five unit chemistry class we took together at the
local college was extremely humbling for me - fortunately Dave was there
to help tutor me. He has spent the summer volunteering 40 hours a week
doing office work at the local science museum and now he's a camp
counselor for K-2 for five weeks. He's chosen his crazy schedule and
the areas he wants to volunteer.
My unschooler friends question my "If we are in Oklahoma - we must go to
the Will Roger's museum, visit the hour races and tour Cowboy Museum"
mentality. I don't keep a portfolio, give tests or keep track of
accomplishments besides the family blog. I'm teaching at the HSC and
SHEA conferences in a couple weeks. If I were going to describe what
type of learning I do with Dave - what would I say? I guess we are not
unschoolers. So what are we?
Mary Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Find the things he does like and that he's good at, no matter how
"narrow," and learn to see all the connections and history and
geography and art and music that can connect to that, one way or
another. Let him grow in his own way and at his own speed.
I share that with parents who come to me for advice about AS - love
them, accept them, help them to do what they love and help them to build
the connections. And then I advise them to the same for all their
children and for all the people in their lives - help the people you
care about do what they are good at!
If all the doctors, specialists, therapists, nutritionists, etc. had
said this to me each time when we came to work them - it would have made
such a difference in our lives! For many years we taught to compensate
for Dave's weaknesses. He obsessively read books - we were "in trouble"
all the time at traditional school. They tortured him for not being
able to hold a pencil and creating art projects on demand (haven't
computers made a joke about learning cursive and you should see him whip
out a power point presentation!).
Around 9 or 10 he started to be able to recognize if he had food on his
face after eating, he began to looked into our faces (I wept the first
time he looked deeply into my eyes - I had no idea his eyes were such a
beautiful color of green), he could recognize teachers and classmates
when they were at the grocery store (but wouldn't know their names), he
could ask for help in a library, he stopped melting away to be found
after much searching under a picnic table, in a quiet corner of a
community center behind the bean bag chairs, in between racks of
clothing in stores...
Once we had some basic life skills were mastered we let him direct his
learning. He's been "traditional school free" since after two months of
sixth grade he was too stressed out to return. He's worked with tutors
in areas that interested him in math, science and history. Now that he
is 16, he's been taking 6-8 units of college classes on line for the
last two years.
As we travel across America I make it mandatory that both teens join us
at the art, science and history museums - but once they see the film or
hear the orientation talk, they are free to roam. They must attend the
tours offered by the rangers at the national parks and participate in
local activities like fish boils, polka festivals, ferry riding,
sledding in the snow or the white sands, farmers markets etc. Dave is
required to do household activities - he hooks up the tow car, cleans
the tile floors (he hates to vacuum - too loud), grocery shops and
washing the family laundry which his sister folds and puts away.
I meet people who don't think that studying the Oregon Trail by
following it as meaningful as reading about it in a book. These same
types of people think that spending two days at Abraham Lincoln's
library isn't much of a learning experience if there isn't a test at the
end. I wonder if they'd consider experiencing a blizzard,
sleet/snow/black ice, torrential rains, flooding, tornados, a part of a
science curriculum? Dave decides what he wants to learn in the places
we are at traveling too. Both kids read the travel books and help us
decide where to "adventure" to next. But when we are there, I insist
that we live fully - do corn mazes, tour Nasa, hike Canyon de Chelly,
visit Thomas Edison's birthplace, visit mineral pools.
I always laugh about who is an unschooler. The rest of the world views
that Dave doesn't "do school." I am not able to teach trigonometry at a
college level and the five unit chemistry class we took together at the
local college was extremely humbling for me - fortunately Dave was there
to help tutor me. He has spent the summer volunteering 40 hours a week
doing office work at the local science museum and now he's a camp
counselor for K-2 for five weeks. He's chosen his crazy schedule and
the areas he wants to volunteer.
My unschooler friends question my "If we are in Oklahoma - we must go to
the Will Roger's museum, visit the hour races and tour Cowboy Museum"
mentality. I don't keep a portfolio, give tests or keep track of
accomplishments besides the family blog. I'm teaching at the HSC and
SHEA conferences in a couple weeks. If I were going to describe what
type of learning I do with Dave - what would I say? I guess we are not
unschoolers. So what are we?
Mary Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I always laugh about who is an unschooler.-=-
I never do.
I spend a GREAT deal of my time and energy helping people unschool.
It was fun having you visit, Mary Ann, and I had a great time hanging
out with you, but you told me then and have said since (in writing,
but not here) that you weren't really unschooling, that you just
lately started unschooling your daughter after some years. You told
me you were requiring schoolwork. Now you're saying you require field
trip (in whatever other terms you want to put it).
That's not a crime and it's surely more fun than school, if the kids
want it and like it more than they would like school.
For the purposes of this list, though, it's helpful for the readers
(and there are very many of them) to know whether the person whose
ideas they're reading really understands and practices unschooling.
-=- I'm teaching at the HSC and SHEA conferences in a couple weeks. -=-
Teaching?
-=- If I were going to describe what type of learning I do with Dave -
what would I say? I guess we are not unschoolers.-=-
But you know you are not unschoolers, don't you? You've said so.
-=- I guess we are not unschoolers. So what are we?-=-
Eclectic homeschoolers, maybe. Relaxed homeschoolers. Depending how
Sarah's unschooling is unfolding.
For this list to be as helpful as it can be, clarity is better than
vagueness. Vague is okay for some things, but for a clear picture of
unschooling, not so much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I never do.
I spend a GREAT deal of my time and energy helping people unschool.
It was fun having you visit, Mary Ann, and I had a great time hanging
out with you, but you told me then and have said since (in writing,
but not here) that you weren't really unschooling, that you just
lately started unschooling your daughter after some years. You told
me you were requiring schoolwork. Now you're saying you require field
trip (in whatever other terms you want to put it).
That's not a crime and it's surely more fun than school, if the kids
want it and like it more than they would like school.
For the purposes of this list, though, it's helpful for the readers
(and there are very many of them) to know whether the person whose
ideas they're reading really understands and practices unschooling.
-=- I'm teaching at the HSC and SHEA conferences in a couple weeks. -=-
Teaching?
-=- If I were going to describe what type of learning I do with Dave -
what would I say? I guess we are not unschoolers.-=-
But you know you are not unschoolers, don't you? You've said so.
-=- I guess we are not unschoolers. So what are we?-=-
Eclectic homeschoolers, maybe. Relaxed homeschoolers. Depending how
Sarah's unschooling is unfolding.
For this list to be as helpful as it can be, clarity is better than
vagueness. Vague is okay for some things, but for a clear picture of
unschooling, not so much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maryann Malkoff
-=-I always laugh about who is an unschooler.-=-
I never do. I spend a GREAT deal of my time and energy helping people
unschool.
I'm one of those people you've helped! You are accurate in how I used
to view our educational style. I used to think we weren't
unschoolers..., in large part because I thought we'd want to "go back"
when the trip was over. Then as we've done more homeschooling
conferences, it's obvious to me to I sit more in the unschooler crowd
and agree with the philosophies.
But since I still teach in some of the areas know more than the kids -
this morning was about fish tank maintenance and yesterday was about
catering for 40 - which is not unschooling because I require them to
participate. I do make field trips and volunteering activities
mandatory.... There is a list on the fridge with household
responsibilities. I've tried to "set free," but I've still got further
to go.
Now that we are back to "living traditionally" for another year, I'll
use the term eclectic homeschooling for Dave and relaxed homeschooling
for Edith-Sarah. I loved the term road-schooling, but that isn't
accurate anymore.
Thanks!
Mary Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I never do. I spend a GREAT deal of my time and energy helping people
unschool.
I'm one of those people you've helped! You are accurate in how I used
to view our educational style. I used to think we weren't
unschoolers..., in large part because I thought we'd want to "go back"
when the trip was over. Then as we've done more homeschooling
conferences, it's obvious to me to I sit more in the unschooler crowd
and agree with the philosophies.
But since I still teach in some of the areas know more than the kids -
this morning was about fish tank maintenance and yesterday was about
catering for 40 - which is not unschooling because I require them to
participate. I do make field trips and volunteering activities
mandatory.... There is a list on the fridge with household
responsibilities. I've tried to "set free," but I've still got further
to go.
Now that we are back to "living traditionally" for another year, I'll
use the term eclectic homeschooling for Dave and relaxed homeschooling
for Edith-Sarah. I loved the term road-schooling, but that isn't
accurate anymore.
Thanks!
Mary Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
Unlike Sandra, I don't know Mary Ann (as far as I know), but I think there
are enough clues described in her schooling practices for me to agree with
her own assessment that she is not an unschooler. I would have thought
Eclectic homeschooler, if you need a helpful label. It takes more than
eschewing testing to be an unschooler.
Having requirements about following or participating in whatever programs at
museums, even insisting on attendance, are some of the factors that take it
out of being unschooling. I guess I'd be curious to know what happens when
one or other of the kids says, "I don't want to."
However this is the idea I want to notice, as an example of a barrier to
unschooling:
<<<< Once we had some basic life skills were mastered we let him direct his
I realize that the specific of Dave was that he had extra challenges.
However the broader principle is that all kids, all people, will have the
need to master basic life skills. There may be some debate over the fine
details of what is a "basic life skill", but in general everyone has areas
to be mastered in order to live happily and comfortably in a community,
including a famly.
Maybe "mastered" is too great a word too. Some of us are spending a lifetime
improving some of our basic life skills, especially as our circumstances
change. Maybe there is a point short of mastery that is "good enough".
One of the tentpoles of unschooling is that everything counts. Therefore
basic life skills count as learning. This is exactly where the whole
"radical unschooler" comes from - that children can be trusted to learn and
make good choices about their personal needs, daily living and life skills.
My daughter has come and is coming to competence in basic life skills in
exactly the same way as she is learning to read and do math - in her own
way, in her own order, and in her own rather erratic time - usually with
announcements about her thought processes.
Sometimes I have helped by making resources available, sometimes I have
hindered by unasked for advice. But at no time was her freedom to then do
the other learning and creative work (and forays into academic thinking)
tied to some timetable of having mastered some life skill or other. Frankly
I can't understand how that would work. "I'll trust you to learn to read
without lessons only after you've learnt to dress yourself, until then it's
lessons and primers"...."Until you've learnt to carry your plate to the
kitchen yourself, I'll be choosing your tv shows"...."Oh you've learnt to
put your dirty clothes in the hamper. Great, now you get to choose what to
study today."
Of course I don't think Mary Ann said any of these absurd things. I don't
think any real person has said any of these things. I'm deliberately
exaggerating to point out what unschoolers might see as the illogic of that
position that life skills have to be mastered first, before unschooling can
be allowed to begin; to notice the lack of clarity expressed with that idea.
The question of "directing learning" is another problematic concept for
unschooling. It implies the separation of learning activities from living
life (oh just like the learning portion of the museum visit versus the free
time to play there). It makes it all sound deliberate, a pre-planned road
map (or train track) of learning with a final "learnt that" goal.
That sure isn't how learning works around here. It is much more organic -
intertwined with life, automatic, constant. The inner work has been done by
the time Jayn announces that "3 and 12 make 15 because 5 and 5 and 5 make 15
and 3 and 2 are 5 and 5 and 5 are 10, see?" or some amazing polysyllabic
word pops out of her regular speech in perfect context.
For us unschooling is about helping Jayn do what she wants to do (sometimes
working around her lack of life skills), without her having to earn the
right to do it by demonstrating her mastery of one or more life skills.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
are enough clues described in her schooling practices for me to agree with
her own assessment that she is not an unschooler. I would have thought
Eclectic homeschooler, if you need a helpful label. It takes more than
eschewing testing to be an unschooler.
Having requirements about following or participating in whatever programs at
museums, even insisting on attendance, are some of the factors that take it
out of being unschooling. I guess I'd be curious to know what happens when
one or other of the kids says, "I don't want to."
However this is the idea I want to notice, as an example of a barrier to
unschooling:
<<<< Once we had some basic life skills were mastered we let him direct his
> learning. >>>>If you have requirements, he isn't the director. But that's an aside.
I realize that the specific of Dave was that he had extra challenges.
However the broader principle is that all kids, all people, will have the
need to master basic life skills. There may be some debate over the fine
details of what is a "basic life skill", but in general everyone has areas
to be mastered in order to live happily and comfortably in a community,
including a famly.
Maybe "mastered" is too great a word too. Some of us are spending a lifetime
improving some of our basic life skills, especially as our circumstances
change. Maybe there is a point short of mastery that is "good enough".
One of the tentpoles of unschooling is that everything counts. Therefore
basic life skills count as learning. This is exactly where the whole
"radical unschooler" comes from - that children can be trusted to learn and
make good choices about their personal needs, daily living and life skills.
My daughter has come and is coming to competence in basic life skills in
exactly the same way as she is learning to read and do math - in her own
way, in her own order, and in her own rather erratic time - usually with
announcements about her thought processes.
Sometimes I have helped by making resources available, sometimes I have
hindered by unasked for advice. But at no time was her freedom to then do
the other learning and creative work (and forays into academic thinking)
tied to some timetable of having mastered some life skill or other. Frankly
I can't understand how that would work. "I'll trust you to learn to read
without lessons only after you've learnt to dress yourself, until then it's
lessons and primers"...."Until you've learnt to carry your plate to the
kitchen yourself, I'll be choosing your tv shows"...."Oh you've learnt to
put your dirty clothes in the hamper. Great, now you get to choose what to
study today."
Of course I don't think Mary Ann said any of these absurd things. I don't
think any real person has said any of these things. I'm deliberately
exaggerating to point out what unschoolers might see as the illogic of that
position that life skills have to be mastered first, before unschooling can
be allowed to begin; to notice the lack of clarity expressed with that idea.
The question of "directing learning" is another problematic concept for
unschooling. It implies the separation of learning activities from living
life (oh just like the learning portion of the museum visit versus the free
time to play there). It makes it all sound deliberate, a pre-planned road
map (or train track) of learning with a final "learnt that" goal.
That sure isn't how learning works around here. It is much more organic -
intertwined with life, automatic, constant. The inner work has been done by
the time Jayn announces that "3 and 12 make 15 because 5 and 5 and 5 make 15
and 3 and 2 are 5 and 5 and 5 are 10, see?" or some amazing polysyllabic
word pops out of her regular speech in perfect context.
For us unschooling is about helping Jayn do what she wants to do (sometimes
working around her lack of life skills), without her having to earn the
right to do it by demonstrating her mastery of one or more life skills.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Jenny C
> I guess I'd be curious to know what happens whenI wondered this as well. I know that if Margaux said she didn't want to
> one or other of the kids says, "I don't want to."
do something and she had to anyway, and we do run into this now and
again, she'd would let us all know and loudly. It would not and does
not go over well. We can sweeten the deal for her sometimes or make the
thing more pleasant, but that is still best case scenario in a worst
case situation.
> One of the tentpoles of unschooling is that everything counts.Therefore
> basic life skills count as learning. This is exactly where the wholelearn and
> "radical unschooler" comes from - that children can be trusted to
> make good choices about their personal needs, daily living and lifeskills.
Chamille, at 15, still gets 4's and 7's mixed up. I don't know why and
I doubt she does either. She doesn't think in mathematical, as in
number pattern sort of ways. She knows how to deal with money, she
understands spatial relationships, and probably many other math related
skills, but as for traditional school style math, she couldn't do it to
save her life. I call that basic life skills, using as much math as she
needs to know at her given point in life, which right now includes money
and various spatial related elements, as well as video game stats. That
could be the extent of it for the duration of her life and it won't
matter one iota because she will be able to get along in life with those
skills.
> The question of "directing learning" is another problematic conceptfor
> unschooling. It implies the separation of learning activities fromliving
> life (oh just like the learning portion of the museum visit versus thefree
> time to play there). It makes it all sound deliberate, a pre-plannedroad
> map (or train track) of learning with a final "learnt that" goal.This is where it always comes back to for me. How in the world do we
know that a kid who is forced to attend a learning portion of the museum
is learning exactly what is supposed to be learned from it? We have no
way of knowing what goes on in someone else's head. The kid could be
tuning it all out and examing the patterns on the floor tiles, and I use
that as an example because that is what I would have done as a kid. The
kid could be thinking about the color of the sky outside and wondering
why it's blue and not yellow. If a kid must regurtitate the info, they
may pay just enough attention to be able to do that and then push it all
out of their head afterwards, or read the museum boards, which again, is
what I would have done after examing the floor tiles.
If given the freedom to explore the museum at my own pace and will, I
still would have examined the floor tiles and read the museum boards and
also the museum collections connected to the boards. I would have
gotten the free pamphlets from the place and taken them with to examine
later. In fact, this is still the kind of thing I do. I was never much
interested in guided tours or ranger talks or any of that stuff, I
wanted to do my own thing at my own pace. I'm still this way and I give
my kids the gift of being able to do that too, or not going at all, and
I've done that too.
What I don't want my kids to learn, is that my way is more important
than their way, that their desire to not go and do, is less important
than my desire for them to go and do.
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Chamille, at 15, still gets 4's and 7's mixed up. =-
In the past week I've had a couple of incidents of the risk of mixing
up 1's and 7's, because of the difference in European and American
handwriting. What makes a seven for them is part of what makes a four
for us (a crossed line) and what makes a 1 for them is part of what
makes a 7 for us (the angle at the top of the vertical line).
I could show this in writing in person, but can't do it with this
computer right now. Maybe if I were at home with my scanner...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chamille, at 15, still gets 4's and 7's mixed up. =-
In the past week I've had a couple of incidents of the risk of mixing
up 1's and 7's, because of the difference in European and American
handwriting. What makes a seven for them is part of what makes a four
for us (a crossed line) and what makes a 1 for them is part of what
makes a 7 for us (the angle at the top of the vertical line).
I could show this in writing in person, but can't do it with this
computer right now. Maybe if I were at home with my scanner...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If given the freedom to explore the museum at my own pace and will, I
still would have examined the floor tiles and read the museum boards and
also the museum collections connected to the boards. I would have
gotten the free pamphlets from the place and taken them with to examine
later. -=-
Me too. And I might have chosen to attend "the learning portion" or
the presentation, too! And when I did, it was a world different from
being "made" to attend it.
As I'm reading these things I'm thinking of my own family and museums
and zoos. If there's a bird show or a "meet the animals" (where you
can hold or touch an animal), my kids would WANT to do that. If
there's a physics demonstration or something, they WANT to do that.
Maybe part of the reason they want to is that I'm enthusiastic about
it myself.
When they were little, Marty didn't like the darkness and noise of the
IMAX or omnimax theaters, so I didn't always press even when I wanted
to see that, but if I did really want to, I would ask Marty nicely and
offer to let him sit in my lap or whatever would make him braver, and
the fact that he was never forced and that he got older every single
day made it not too long before he was willing to go anytime.
I think there's enough information on Will Rogers online that someone
who passed through Oklahoma and missed a particular presentation could
catch up with it later, pretty easily.
There will never be enough online to reclaim a day of life with one's
child.
I know unschoolers are working on putting enough online to help
parents repair relationships that have been damaged by control and
pressure, but the main message of unschooling is not to create the
damage in the first place.
Probably there are many on the list who know know who Will Rogers is,
and some who don't care, and some who, having seen the link below,
will still wonder why it would be such a big deal. I live one state
over, and while I appreciate Will Rogers some, it's not more than I
appreciate Billy Crystal, Whoopi Goldberg and Robin Williams. Anyone
who doesn't know why I named those three particularly could find out
why. Maybe someday there will be a museum dedicated to them, after
they're dead, and people re-enacting them. But today they're alive,
and so if a child stayed back from Will Rogers to watch videos of
living speakers, they might not be "behind" at all.
http://www.willrogers.com/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
still would have examined the floor tiles and read the museum boards and
also the museum collections connected to the boards. I would have
gotten the free pamphlets from the place and taken them with to examine
later. -=-
Me too. And I might have chosen to attend "the learning portion" or
the presentation, too! And when I did, it was a world different from
being "made" to attend it.
As I'm reading these things I'm thinking of my own family and museums
and zoos. If there's a bird show or a "meet the animals" (where you
can hold or touch an animal), my kids would WANT to do that. If
there's a physics demonstration or something, they WANT to do that.
Maybe part of the reason they want to is that I'm enthusiastic about
it myself.
When they were little, Marty didn't like the darkness and noise of the
IMAX or omnimax theaters, so I didn't always press even when I wanted
to see that, but if I did really want to, I would ask Marty nicely and
offer to let him sit in my lap or whatever would make him braver, and
the fact that he was never forced and that he got older every single
day made it not too long before he was willing to go anytime.
I think there's enough information on Will Rogers online that someone
who passed through Oklahoma and missed a particular presentation could
catch up with it later, pretty easily.
There will never be enough online to reclaim a day of life with one's
child.
I know unschoolers are working on putting enough online to help
parents repair relationships that have been damaged by control and
pressure, but the main message of unschooling is not to create the
damage in the first place.
Probably there are many on the list who know know who Will Rogers is,
and some who don't care, and some who, having seen the link below,
will still wonder why it would be such a big deal. I live one state
over, and while I appreciate Will Rogers some, it's not more than I
appreciate Billy Crystal, Whoopi Goldberg and Robin Williams. Anyone
who doesn't know why I named those three particularly could find out
why. Maybe someday there will be a museum dedicated to them, after
they're dead, and people re-enacting them. But today they're alive,
and so if a child stayed back from Will Rogers to watch videos of
living speakers, they might not be "behind" at all.
http://www.willrogers.com/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ward Family
>>In the past week I've had a couple of incidents of the risk of mixingup 1's and 7's, because of the difference in European and American
handwriting. What makes a seven for them is part of what makes a four
for us (a crossed line) and what makes a 1 for them is part of what
makes a 7 for us (the angle at the top of the vertical line).
I could show this in writing in person, but can't do it with this
computer right now. Maybe if I were at home with my scanner...>>
Last year we used a maths tutor to help Emma prepare for an exam she needed to complete to move on to where she wants to go - he pointed out to me that I had not shown her to write x in algebra as a backwards c joined to a c kind of like )( , so it wasn't confused with a multiplication sign. Apart from the fact that most of her maths was self taught, we all ended up far from being on the same page due to differing symbolism. Sometimes we can assume we are working with a common code when in fact that is not the case.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Last year we used a maths tutor to help Emma prepare for an exam
she needed to complete to move on to where she wants to go - he
pointed out to me that I had not shown her to write x in algebra as a
backwards c joined to a c kind of like )( , so it wasn't confused with
a multiplication sign. Apart from the fact that most of her maths was
self taught, we all ended up far from being on the same page due to
differing symbolism. Sometimes we can assume we are working with a
common code when in fact that is not the case.-=-
Huh. News to me. Probably an old system from the days of chalkboards
and moveable type.
Our algebra always came out of a book, and not a 19th century book,
and so X was X, only the "times" x was smaller and vertically centered
as a plus or minus or division sign was.
And in typing it's small x, like X x 3 = 12 (once a person knows one
is about to break into mathematical notation, I mean).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
she needed to complete to move on to where she wants to go - he
pointed out to me that I had not shown her to write x in algebra as a
backwards c joined to a c kind of like )( , so it wasn't confused with
a multiplication sign. Apart from the fact that most of her maths was
self taught, we all ended up far from being on the same page due to
differing symbolism. Sometimes we can assume we are working with a
common code when in fact that is not the case.-=-
Huh. News to me. Probably an old system from the days of chalkboards
and moveable type.
Our algebra always came out of a book, and not a 19th century book,
and so X was X, only the "times" x was smaller and vertically centered
as a plus or minus or division sign was.
And in typing it's small x, like X x 3 = 12 (once a person knows one
is about to break into mathematical notation, I mean).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On Jul 27, 2009, at 5:27 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
algebra.
Su
> -Our algebra always came out of a book, and not a 19th century book,Whereas I learned to use a dot as the "times" sign once I got to
> and so X was X, only the "times" x was smaller and vertically centered
> as a plus or minus or division sign was.
algebra.
Su
sheila rogers
Once again, a discussion about labels. If you, as the parent, find the
label helpful for finding information to help a child that is a lot
different than putting said label on your child--or allowing a professional
to do so.
Within unschooling I don't see how using the label itself helps one to
unschool. Using the label is not the same as understanding the ins and outs
of your particular situation. Nor is using the label itself helping you
to meet the needs of your child. These things can be done sans labels.
This phrase within the conversation about labels reminded me of something:
specialists, therapists, nutritionists] and many others including schools,
special education specialists, book publishers, drug companies, non-profit
agencies and governments all profit from people using labels.
I think long and hard about who is benefiting from the use of labels before
using one.
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
label helpful for finding information to help a child that is a lot
different than putting said label on your child--or allowing a professional
to do so.
Within unschooling I don't see how using the label itself helps one to
unschool. Using the label is not the same as understanding the ins and outs
of your particular situation. Nor is using the label itself helping you
to meet the needs of your child. These things can be done sans labels.
This phrase within the conversation about labels reminded me of something:
>If all the doctors, specialists, therapists, nutritionists, etc. hadLabels can be as much about the money as they are about helping. [Doctors,
>said this to me each time when we came to work them [. . .]
specialists, therapists, nutritionists] and many others including schools,
special education specialists, book publishers, drug companies, non-profit
agencies and governments all profit from people using labels.
I think long and hard about who is benefiting from the use of labels before
using one.
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Once again, a discussion about labels.-=-
Every topic will come back up every few months. That's how it works.
If anyone feels the same, same topics are coming up over and over,
you're right. That's because people join the list every day.
Nineteen people have joined in the past week.
One common thing is for people not to understand the question the
first time, and to understand it better the next time. Another thing
to be expected is that some people might not have any suggestions or
stories the second or third time they see the question, but as time
goes on they will have.
Because the questions are asked, people are aware, when the
situations come up in their own lives that they can go to the archives
of this list (and other places) to look for ideas from past discussion.
I agree with this:
-=- Using the label is not the same as understanding the ins and outs
of your particular situation. Nor is using the label itself helping you
to meet the needs of your child. These things can be done sans labels.-
=-
And when people think about this, remember that none of it applies to
unschoolers. If the label won't help anyone else make money, then
there's much less reason to use it or to seek out a diagnosis.
-=-Labels can be as much about the money as they are about helping.
[Doctors,
specialists, therapists, nutritionists] and many others including
schools,
special education specialists, book publishers, drug companies, non-
profit
agencies and governments all profit from people using labels.-=-
One of the worst things I see done with a label, I see done *all the
time*: a mother wants a piece of paper that says it's not her
fault. That there's something wrong with her child.
If we're being partners with our children it's not about who's at
fault, the mother or the child. It's another good argument against
labels.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Every topic will come back up every few months. That's how it works.
If anyone feels the same, same topics are coming up over and over,
you're right. That's because people join the list every day.
Nineteen people have joined in the past week.
One common thing is for people not to understand the question the
first time, and to understand it better the next time. Another thing
to be expected is that some people might not have any suggestions or
stories the second or third time they see the question, but as time
goes on they will have.
Because the questions are asked, people are aware, when the
situations come up in their own lives that they can go to the archives
of this list (and other places) to look for ideas from past discussion.
I agree with this:
-=- Using the label is not the same as understanding the ins and outs
of your particular situation. Nor is using the label itself helping you
to meet the needs of your child. These things can be done sans labels.-
=-
And when people think about this, remember that none of it applies to
unschoolers. If the label won't help anyone else make money, then
there's much less reason to use it or to seek out a diagnosis.
-=-Labels can be as much about the money as they are about helping.
[Doctors,
specialists, therapists, nutritionists] and many others including
schools,
special education specialists, book publishers, drug companies, non-
profit
agencies and governments all profit from people using labels.-=-
One of the worst things I see done with a label, I see done *all the
time*: a mother wants a piece of paper that says it's not her
fault. That there's something wrong with her child.
If we're being partners with our children it's not about who's at
fault, the mother or the child. It's another good argument against
labels.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
This discussion has been great for my sister who joined the group a month or two ago.
She was not interested in homeschooling until her son went into 1st grade last year and it was a nightmare of trying to label him and drug him.
They pulled him out. He did not want to go anymore either. Then my sister started talking to me about homeschooling and learning all she could. She took home " Moving a Puddle" to read and than about a month or two ago she joined this list. She is loving it. She is really into this discussion she told me.
I am sure there are other lurkers like her that are getting a lot out of yet another discussion about labels.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She was not interested in homeschooling until her son went into 1st grade last year and it was a nightmare of trying to label him and drug him.
They pulled him out. He did not want to go anymore either. Then my sister started talking to me about homeschooling and learning all she could. She took home " Moving a Puddle" to read and than about a month or two ago she joined this list. She is loving it. She is really into this discussion she told me.
I am sure there are other lurkers like her that are getting a lot out of yet another discussion about labels.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
appletreereader
Sandra and Alex,
Thanks for setting me straight on my comment regarding discussing labels again. I can see I made a mistake.
Sandra wrote:
The two of you and others on this list have helped me many times. Thanks for helping me--once again,
Sheila
Thanks for setting me straight on my comment regarding discussing labels again. I can see I made a mistake.
Sandra wrote:
> Because the questions are asked, people are aware, when theI have learned much from reading on a topic more than once and especially when the same thing is said in different ways. I have also looked to the archives various times and have found them to be very helpful. This list has added a lot to my understanding of various issues.
> situations come up in their own lives that they can go to the archives
> of this list (and other places) to look for ideas from past discussion.
The two of you and others on this list have helped me many times. Thanks for helping me--once again,
Sheila