unschooling is hard work?
[email protected]
So - my mom told me today that unschooling is really hard work. I don't
usually think of it that way - it feels more like establishing a flow of some
sort and feels more like being in a groove - but she reminded me how HARD it
was to relax during labor and that sort of made sense to me in two ways. One
- I had to really think and practice a lot to learn HOW to relax during labor
and TWO - it took huge ongoing effort to stay relaxed during labor. But when
it worked - when I WAS relaxed, it felt natural and great and just exactly
like being in a groove.
So - I think maybe people hear about unschooling and think it is easy as in
not requiring effort. But it is the opposite - it takes HUGE parental effort
- constant awareness of each child's interests and needs and possibilities.
It means always carrying that awareness around with you everywhere so that
you're always making connections and noticing things that might be something
useful for your kids.
My mom said that it is an exhausting lifestyle. She also says that when we
unschoolers talk about unschooling we talk about what we do NOT do a lot more
than about what we do - or at least that people understand more easily what
we don't do, but that we tend to downplay how much work we put into our
interactions with our kids.
So, she says, there are people who like the idea of unschooling, but don't
want to or aren't able to put in the physical or mental energy that it takes
and, she says, their kids would be better off with some nice simple
curriculum.
--pamS
usually think of it that way - it feels more like establishing a flow of some
sort and feels more like being in a groove - but she reminded me how HARD it
was to relax during labor and that sort of made sense to me in two ways. One
- I had to really think and practice a lot to learn HOW to relax during labor
and TWO - it took huge ongoing effort to stay relaxed during labor. But when
it worked - when I WAS relaxed, it felt natural and great and just exactly
like being in a groove.
So - I think maybe people hear about unschooling and think it is easy as in
not requiring effort. But it is the opposite - it takes HUGE parental effort
- constant awareness of each child's interests and needs and possibilities.
It means always carrying that awareness around with you everywhere so that
you're always making connections and noticing things that might be something
useful for your kids.
My mom said that it is an exhausting lifestyle. She also says that when we
unschoolers talk about unschooling we talk about what we do NOT do a lot more
than about what we do - or at least that people understand more easily what
we don't do, but that we tend to downplay how much work we put into our
interactions with our kids.
So, she says, there are people who like the idea of unschooling, but don't
want to or aren't able to put in the physical or mental energy that it takes
and, she says, their kids would be better off with some nice simple
curriculum.
--pamS
Fetteroll
on 2/12/02 4:21 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:
do but just won't or can't. But I think it's more that they just don't know
how to fill up the vacuum. Taking away all the things they're "supposed" to
do, we leave people with a great big emptiness that they have nothing in
their experience to fill it with.
Maybe it's sort of like taking someone who's grown up knowing nothing but
dog training and putting them in charge of a room full of cats. They'd say,
"What do I *do* with them??" It's tough getting out of that mind set of
needing to do and into the mind set of needing to just be aware.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So, she says, there are people who like the idea of unschooling, but don'tI think "don't want to" and "aren't able to" suggest that they know what to
> want to or aren't able to put in the physical or mental energy that it takes
> and, she says, their kids would be better off with some nice simple
> curriculum.
do but just won't or can't. But I think it's more that they just don't know
how to fill up the vacuum. Taking away all the things they're "supposed" to
do, we leave people with a great big emptiness that they have nothing in
their experience to fill it with.
Maybe it's sort of like taking someone who's grown up knowing nothing but
dog training and putting them in charge of a room full of cats. They'd say,
"What do I *do* with them??" It's tough getting out of that mind set of
needing to do and into the mind set of needing to just be aware.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pat Cald...
Unschooling is *very* hard work for me and I wish I were better at it. You see, the hardest thing for me is wanting to learn and be curious along with my kids. I'm just not that way. I only want to learn about what *I* am interested in and my interests are very limited and focused. It is a constant struggle for me.
I have to pretend to be interested and I know sometimes my kids can tell. Virginia has actually told me to just pretend I'm interested when she can tell I'm not and she needs me to be.
I hope it gets better. I want to be more interested and curious. Oh I hope it gets better!
Pat
I have to pretend to be interested and I know sometimes my kids can tell. Virginia has actually told me to just pretend I'm interested when she can tell I'm not and she needs me to be.
I hope it gets better. I want to be more interested and curious. Oh I hope it gets better!
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 4:21 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling is hard work?
So - my mom told me today that unschooling is really hard work. I don't
usually think of it that way - it feels more like establishing a flow of some
sort and feels more like being in a groove - but she reminded me how HARD it
was to relax during labor and that sort of made sense to me in two ways. One
- I had to really think and practice a lot to learn HOW to relax during labor
and TWO - it took huge ongoing effort to stay relaxed during labor. But when
it worked - when I WAS relaxed, it felt natural and great and just exactly
like being in a groove.
So - I think maybe people hear about unschooling and think it is easy as in
not requiring effort. But it is the opposite - it takes HUGE parental effort
- constant awareness of each child's interests and needs and possibilities.
It means always carrying that awareness around with you everywhere so that
you're always making connections and noticing things that might be something
useful for your kids.
My mom said that it is an exhausting lifestyle. She also says that when we
unschoolers talk about unschooling we talk about what we do NOT do a lot more
than about what we do - or at least that people understand more easily what
we don't do, but that we tend to downplay how much work we put into our
interactions with our kids.
So, she says, there are people who like the idea of unschooling, but don't
want to or aren't able to put in the physical or mental energy that it takes
and, she says, their kids would be better off with some nice simple
curriculum.
--pamS
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 8:10:47 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:
<< I only want to learn about what *I* am interested in and my interests are
very limited and focused. It is a constant struggle for me. >>
Sometimes I am not interested in the subject that the kids are talking about,
but I am always interested in the kids themselves. So, when Quinn takes 30
minutes to describe the intricate details of his latest made-up video game, I
listen to see how his mind is working, how he uses words. That keeps me sane
<gg>.
Paula
<< I only want to learn about what *I* am interested in and my interests are
very limited and focused. It is a constant struggle for me. >>
Sometimes I am not interested in the subject that the kids are talking about,
but I am always interested in the kids themselves. So, when Quinn takes 30
minutes to describe the intricate details of his latest made-up video game, I
listen to see how his mind is working, how he uses words. That keeps me sane
<gg>.
Paula
Sharon Rudd
This was from another list....
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:22:40 -0800
From: "Shannon Hawkins" <hawk141@...>
Subject: Looking for Homeschooling Dads
I thought some on this list might be
interested.........
The National Home Education Network (NHEN) would like
to provide
information, networking and support for Dads in
homeschooling families by letting them hear from other
Dads whose
children are homeschooled. We are therefore looking
for Dads who will write
about their involvement with homeschooling. We would
like to hear from
Stay-at-home Dads and those working full-time from
home or outside the
home. Tell us how you are involved in your children's
learning. Some of
you may teach specific subjects, some may spend time
with your children
pursuing hobbies or sports. We would like to hear from
many Dads with
different working life styles and
homeschooling styles.
Please contact Jill McArthy at membership@... for
additional
information.
Thanks for your time...........
Shannon a NHEN Support Services Liaison for the states
of CA, HI and
NV.
hawk141@...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:22:40 -0800
From: "Shannon Hawkins" <hawk141@...>
Subject: Looking for Homeschooling Dads
I thought some on this list might be
interested.........
The National Home Education Network (NHEN) would like
to provide
information, networking and support for Dads in
homeschooling families by letting them hear from other
Dads whose
children are homeschooled. We are therefore looking
for Dads who will write
about their involvement with homeschooling. We would
like to hear from
Stay-at-home Dads and those working full-time from
home or outside the
home. Tell us how you are involved in your children's
learning. Some of
you may teach specific subjects, some may spend time
with your children
pursuing hobbies or sports. We would like to hear from
many Dads with
different working life styles and
homeschooling styles.
Please contact Jill McArthy at membership@... for
additional
information.
Thanks for your time...........
Shannon a NHEN Support Services Liaison for the states
of CA, HI and
NV.
hawk141@...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Sharon Rudd
Hey Pat
So your Mom appreciates you?
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
So your Mom appreciates you?
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
joanna514
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@y...> wrote:
curious along with my kids. I'm just not that way. I only want to
learn about what *I* am interested in and my interests are very
limited and focused. It is a constant struggle for me.
when she can tell I'm not and she needs me to be.
I know exactly what you mean.
I don't have that drive like my kids. It seems to me, at some point
in my life. Probably around the middle of elementary school, I lost
that spark. It was never encouraged by anyone, and infact, I was
usually shamed or belittled by older siblings for dreaming or
thinking beyond my expectations.
I've talked to my kids about not being able to be as enthusiastic or
interested in so many things, like they are. I am getting better,
but I don't see myself ever being like them again. Actually, I never
was anything like them. They are amazing, and I'm not the only one
that notices! My 5 year old has decided to give me playing lessons.
I've found that if I sit down with them, and start building legos, or
painting a picture, a real, creative side of me comes out. I just
need to do it more. I need to push myself in that direction more.
Joanna
> Unschooling is *very* hard work for me and I wish I were better atit. You see, the hardest thing for me is wanting to learn and be
curious along with my kids. I'm just not that way. I only want to
learn about what *I* am interested in and my interests are very
limited and focused. It is a constant struggle for me.
>tell. Virginia has actually told me to just pretend I'm interested
> I have to pretend to be interested and I know sometimes my kids can
when she can tell I'm not and she needs me to be.
>Oh I hope it gets better!
> I hope it gets better. I want to be more interested and curious.
>Pat you are so refreshingly honest!
> Pat
I know exactly what you mean.
I don't have that drive like my kids. It seems to me, at some point
in my life. Probably around the middle of elementary school, I lost
that spark. It was never encouraged by anyone, and infact, I was
usually shamed or belittled by older siblings for dreaming or
thinking beyond my expectations.
I've talked to my kids about not being able to be as enthusiastic or
interested in so many things, like they are. I am getting better,
but I don't see myself ever being like them again. Actually, I never
was anything like them. They are amazing, and I'm not the only one
that notices! My 5 year old has decided to give me playing lessons.
I've found that if I sit down with them, and start building legos, or
painting a picture, a real, creative side of me comes out. I just
need to do it more. I need to push myself in that direction more.
Joanna
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 2:25:44 AM, PSoroosh@... writes:
<< So, she says, there are people who like the idea of unschooling, but don't
want to or aren't able to put in the physical or mental energy that it takes
and, she says, their kids would be better off with some nice simple
curriculum. >>
Pam and her mom have a good point.
About five years ago on AOL I started a thread trying to get help to make a
checklist of things a parent needs to be able to unschool, and one of things
that will prevent unschooling. Kind of a screening quiz, women's magazine
style--"Do You Have What it Takes to Unschool?" as it were.
I was shot down by half a dozen people saying WITH EMOTION that that was just
wrong, and of course ANYONE could unschool, and if I came up with such a list
it would only be a discouragement.
Sometimes, though, I think maybe unschooling should have been a secret
society so that the success rate would be better. So that people would feel
invested and not give up so easily. Maybe there should be a statement of
faith. Faith in natural learning, faith in children's abilities to make good
choices given the option.
But I tink there are some families in which the parents didn't have what they
needed to unschool and so it didn't work out as well as it did in other
families.
-=-I think "don't want to" and "aren't able to" suggest that they know what to
do but just won't or can't. But I think it's more that they just don't know
how to fill up the vacuum. Taking away all the things they're "supposed" to
do, we leave people with a great big emptiness that they have nothing in
their experience to fill it with.-=-
I think some just won't or can't.
Either they can't stand the mess, aren't flexible thinkers, aren't divergent
or creative thinkers, or their experience is so oppressive inside them that
they won't loosen up (relax) sufficiently to "get it" before their kids are
grown.
Some women don't relax during labor.
-=-It's tough getting out of that mind set of
needing to do and into the mind set of needing to just be aware.
-=-
Too tough for some.
And some come for ideas and help only long enough to get the idea of what
unschoolers don't do, as Pam's mom's suggesting, and don't stick around to
figure out what the successful unschoolers ARE doing.
Sandra
<< So, she says, there are people who like the idea of unschooling, but don't
want to or aren't able to put in the physical or mental energy that it takes
and, she says, their kids would be better off with some nice simple
curriculum. >>
Pam and her mom have a good point.
About five years ago on AOL I started a thread trying to get help to make a
checklist of things a parent needs to be able to unschool, and one of things
that will prevent unschooling. Kind of a screening quiz, women's magazine
style--"Do You Have What it Takes to Unschool?" as it were.
I was shot down by half a dozen people saying WITH EMOTION that that was just
wrong, and of course ANYONE could unschool, and if I came up with such a list
it would only be a discouragement.
Sometimes, though, I think maybe unschooling should have been a secret
society so that the success rate would be better. So that people would feel
invested and not give up so easily. Maybe there should be a statement of
faith. Faith in natural learning, faith in children's abilities to make good
choices given the option.
But I tink there are some families in which the parents didn't have what they
needed to unschool and so it didn't work out as well as it did in other
families.
-=-I think "don't want to" and "aren't able to" suggest that they know what to
do but just won't or can't. But I think it's more that they just don't know
how to fill up the vacuum. Taking away all the things they're "supposed" to
do, we leave people with a great big emptiness that they have nothing in
their experience to fill it with.-=-
I think some just won't or can't.
Either they can't stand the mess, aren't flexible thinkers, aren't divergent
or creative thinkers, or their experience is so oppressive inside them that
they won't loosen up (relax) sufficiently to "get it" before their kids are
grown.
Some women don't relax during labor.
-=-It's tough getting out of that mind set of
needing to do and into the mind set of needing to just be aware.
-=-
Too tough for some.
And some come for ideas and help only long enough to get the idea of what
unschoolers don't do, as Pam's mom's suggesting, and don't stick around to
figure out what the successful unschoolers ARE doing.
Sandra
Pat Cald...
I'm sorry Sharon, I don't understand your comment. Would you explain it to me please.
Pat
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Rudd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling is hard work?
Hey Pat
So your Mom appreciates you?
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 8:21:12 AM, Wilkinson6@... writes:
<< I just
need to do it more. I need to push myself in that direction more. >>
Maybe you could chart six hours a day that you're really "unschooling," until
you get better at it?
I've had conversations a couple of times just recently with others, about it
seeming that some people think unschooling is throwing the curriculum away
(or selling it to some poor unsuspecting family) and then just waiting for
the kids to reconstruct it on their own, for fun. And at the extreme, some
unschooling families take phrases like "child led" and think they can just
ignore the kids for days on end and they'll still be learning just as well.
Once in a chat, someone said "how many hours a day does unschooling take?"
One of us said "none of them" and another said "all of them."
Does that mean twelve of them?
What it means is that once it's working, you don't have some hours when you
unschool and some when you don't. It doesn't end. But "it" isn't letting
the kids try to learn all by themselves without the input or prodding or
jollying or encouragement of people who know more than they do. And that
doesn't always have to be the mom. Part of "doing it" can be seeking out and
appreciating the times your kids are in the company of other people who know
things they don't--other kids, older teens, other parents, whatever.
The other night Holly watched a movie without me. I was doing things that
couldn't be done where she was. I really would rather have watched it with
her, because she would have questions she's not going to ask aloud if nobody
else is in the room, and there were places in the movie I would have
commented on this or that. So after her first session of watching it, I made
myself go and watch it with her. It took us four sittings, after all, to
finish it, but it was better to watch it with her. It was "Everybody Sing,"
a Judy Garland movie from the 30's.
There's a lot to discuss in any old movie. The good trick is figuring out
how much is too much to tell, and what the child wants to know or would be
interested in but just doesn't know it. I could tie in litle bits with
things she already knew. She enjoyed pointing out similarities to the Wizard
of Oz (the actress who did Glenda, the Witch of the North, plays her mom in
this one), and common elements with other 30's stuff we've seen lately, which
is lots. It has been Depression month here, mostly coincidently, but some
because Holly loved the movie Paper Moon, and wanted some of the songs. Then
I rented Top Hat so she could see Cheek to Cheek in context. And I had
ordered Duck Soup to rent, just for me, and realized it was the same period,
and had some of the same elements too--fantasy sets, women dressed fabulously
(as escapism for those who could barely afford a movie), exotic and fantasy
locations.
I'm not telling this to suggest people go and get those movies and create
that interest. The interest came first and gradually, but I built on it. It
cost me $35 for the CD of songs (but if I'd been wise in the ways of
downloading songs and had a CD maker I could have done differently). She has
listened to it lots, and played it for guests, and learned lots of lyrics.
I've rented a few movies I might not have otherwise. $12. We sat one day
eating lunch, watching a crew working on a new store they're putting in near
us. Brick layers, concrete pouring. We parked and watched them like a
drive-in, and she asked questions about the Great Depression, and I told her
stories I'd heard from grandparents and an elderly teacher. We talked about
these guys, who were working in a light snow, and how unemployed they would
have been in the 30's. She said if SHE had been mayor, she would have made
it illegal to wear shoes, so people without shoes wouldn't have felt bad.
And she would have sold all the shoes and redistributed the money.
Holly never saw any pre-rubber-soul shoes all worn out, from those days, so I
kept my mental picture to myself. But I asked who would buy the shoes? Even
now, used shoes don't sell for more than five or ten dollars a pair, and in
those days a nickel was real money you could buy food with.
No pre-fab lesson on the Depression would have gone to just the point in her
thinking where she was. I had to deal with her, directly, with the questions
and ideas she was having. At one point my food was done and I was getting
cold, and I started the car and started to back out. She said "Where are we
going!? I'm still having fun."
I said sorry, I was getting cold. So I turned the engine and heater on, and
we stayed until she said we should go.
If I'd had a good reason to leave right then, she would have understood. I
didn't, and she wanted to stay a while, and so I understood.
Yesterday we went to a play, a travelling group doing a show for school
groups. It was a musical of The Boxcar Children. It started off talking
about the Great Depression. The Wednesday before, we got backstage tours of
the Albuquerque Little Theatre (separate tours, as it turns out <g>--she was
with the homeschooling group, and I found old friends of mine were working on
sets). It was built by the WPA. Of all the kids in that group of 21 kids,
Holly probably knew and cared more about what that meant than anyone. On the
way home we talked about the construction jobs, the clerical and acting and
directing jobs, and the relief from fear and boredom that going to a play
would have meant for other people too, in those days. And there the theatre
still stood, still being used.
You can't plan months like we're having. You can practice with little
things, practice being there WITH your child (mentally, playfully,
intellectually, not just physically) and following on his or her lead.
Maybe six hours a day, until you're doing it all the time without trying.
Sandra
<< I just
need to do it more. I need to push myself in that direction more. >>
Maybe you could chart six hours a day that you're really "unschooling," until
you get better at it?
I've had conversations a couple of times just recently with others, about it
seeming that some people think unschooling is throwing the curriculum away
(or selling it to some poor unsuspecting family) and then just waiting for
the kids to reconstruct it on their own, for fun. And at the extreme, some
unschooling families take phrases like "child led" and think they can just
ignore the kids for days on end and they'll still be learning just as well.
Once in a chat, someone said "how many hours a day does unschooling take?"
One of us said "none of them" and another said "all of them."
Does that mean twelve of them?
What it means is that once it's working, you don't have some hours when you
unschool and some when you don't. It doesn't end. But "it" isn't letting
the kids try to learn all by themselves without the input or prodding or
jollying or encouragement of people who know more than they do. And that
doesn't always have to be the mom. Part of "doing it" can be seeking out and
appreciating the times your kids are in the company of other people who know
things they don't--other kids, older teens, other parents, whatever.
The other night Holly watched a movie without me. I was doing things that
couldn't be done where she was. I really would rather have watched it with
her, because she would have questions she's not going to ask aloud if nobody
else is in the room, and there were places in the movie I would have
commented on this or that. So after her first session of watching it, I made
myself go and watch it with her. It took us four sittings, after all, to
finish it, but it was better to watch it with her. It was "Everybody Sing,"
a Judy Garland movie from the 30's.
There's a lot to discuss in any old movie. The good trick is figuring out
how much is too much to tell, and what the child wants to know or would be
interested in but just doesn't know it. I could tie in litle bits with
things she already knew. She enjoyed pointing out similarities to the Wizard
of Oz (the actress who did Glenda, the Witch of the North, plays her mom in
this one), and common elements with other 30's stuff we've seen lately, which
is lots. It has been Depression month here, mostly coincidently, but some
because Holly loved the movie Paper Moon, and wanted some of the songs. Then
I rented Top Hat so she could see Cheek to Cheek in context. And I had
ordered Duck Soup to rent, just for me, and realized it was the same period,
and had some of the same elements too--fantasy sets, women dressed fabulously
(as escapism for those who could barely afford a movie), exotic and fantasy
locations.
I'm not telling this to suggest people go and get those movies and create
that interest. The interest came first and gradually, but I built on it. It
cost me $35 for the CD of songs (but if I'd been wise in the ways of
downloading songs and had a CD maker I could have done differently). She has
listened to it lots, and played it for guests, and learned lots of lyrics.
I've rented a few movies I might not have otherwise. $12. We sat one day
eating lunch, watching a crew working on a new store they're putting in near
us. Brick layers, concrete pouring. We parked and watched them like a
drive-in, and she asked questions about the Great Depression, and I told her
stories I'd heard from grandparents and an elderly teacher. We talked about
these guys, who were working in a light snow, and how unemployed they would
have been in the 30's. She said if SHE had been mayor, she would have made
it illegal to wear shoes, so people without shoes wouldn't have felt bad.
And she would have sold all the shoes and redistributed the money.
Holly never saw any pre-rubber-soul shoes all worn out, from those days, so I
kept my mental picture to myself. But I asked who would buy the shoes? Even
now, used shoes don't sell for more than five or ten dollars a pair, and in
those days a nickel was real money you could buy food with.
No pre-fab lesson on the Depression would have gone to just the point in her
thinking where she was. I had to deal with her, directly, with the questions
and ideas she was having. At one point my food was done and I was getting
cold, and I started the car and started to back out. She said "Where are we
going!? I'm still having fun."
I said sorry, I was getting cold. So I turned the engine and heater on, and
we stayed until she said we should go.
If I'd had a good reason to leave right then, she would have understood. I
didn't, and she wanted to stay a while, and so I understood.
Yesterday we went to a play, a travelling group doing a show for school
groups. It was a musical of The Boxcar Children. It started off talking
about the Great Depression. The Wednesday before, we got backstage tours of
the Albuquerque Little Theatre (separate tours, as it turns out <g>--she was
with the homeschooling group, and I found old friends of mine were working on
sets). It was built by the WPA. Of all the kids in that group of 21 kids,
Holly probably knew and cared more about what that meant than anyone. On the
way home we talked about the construction jobs, the clerical and acting and
directing jobs, and the relief from fear and boredom that going to a play
would have meant for other people too, in those days. And there the theatre
still stood, still being used.
You can't plan months like we're having. You can practice with little
things, practice being there WITH your child (mentally, playfully,
intellectually, not just physically) and following on his or her lead.
Maybe six hours a day, until you're doing it all the time without trying.
Sandra
Sharon Rudd
> Sometimes, though, I think maybe unschooling shouldI like that. Having been a closet elitist in my youth
> have been a secret
> society
and ignorance. Now I'm jess ignarant.
>so that the success rate would be better.But. Success rate? implication being failure.
Failure? Aren't there folks who just finally
acknowledge having not committed to follow though? And
go a different route? That isn't really failure,(is
it?) just misfit, for the parents. Children, without
standardized boundaries can't fail. The only way to
fail at life is to die. I think.
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
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In a message dated 2/12/02 11:04:10 AM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< It has been Depression month here, mostly coincidently, but some
because Holly loved the movie Paper Moon, and wanted some of the songs. >>
A great book set in that time is Bud, Not Buddy.
paula
<< It has been Depression month here, mostly coincidently, but some
because Holly loved the movie Paper Moon, and wanted some of the songs. >>
A great book set in that time is Bud, Not Buddy.
paula
Sharon Rudd
She seems to be aware of your good mothering. That
you aren't just opting out or neglectful as so many
relatives assume, that unschooling doesn't mean "do
nothing". She seems to understand that being aware
does take energy....and that you are aware.
She seems to appreciate the effort you are making to
make life good for her grandchildren. I think she is
proud to be your mother. I think she appreciates YOU.
And vicariously, the rest of us. Thanks for sharing
her perceptions.
Sharon of the Swamp
--- "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@...> wrote:
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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you aren't just opting out or neglectful as so many
relatives assume, that unschooling doesn't mean "do
nothing". She seems to understand that being aware
does take energy....and that you are aware.
She seems to appreciate the effort you are making to
make life good for her grandchildren. I think she is
proud to be your mother. I think she appreciates YOU.
And vicariously, the rest of us. Thanks for sharing
her perceptions.
Sharon of the Swamp
--- "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@...> wrote:
> I'm sorry Sharon, I don't understand your comment.__________________________________________________
> Would you explain it to me please.
>
> Pat
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sharon Rudd
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling is hard
> work?
>
>
> Hey Pat
>
> So your Mom appreciates you?
>
> Sharon of the Swamp
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
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Pat Cald...
<snip>
I know there are a lot of playing moms out there so please don't be shocked or think I'm terrible. I'm just different than you.
We took the Myers-Briggs personality profile test and it hit the nail on the head with me. My personality loves to work and if there is any time left *maybe* I'll find time to play. Allison is the complete opposite. Her personality type loves to play and maybe if there is time will do a little work.
We had a heart-to-heart talk not too long ago and she told me she never wants to grow up. She said she was afraid she would not be able to play any more. I assured her she will always be able to play and that the job she picks will feel like playing to her or she should not choose that career. I told her she could not use me as an example of what her life would be like because we are different and this is the way I like my life. She will be a playing mom!
I do like playing with them but it has to be thought provoking play or I get bored. <ugh>
Pat
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I've talked to my kids about not being able to be as enthusiastic orI need playing lessons! I have always told my kids that I am not a playing mom. I'm glad my girls have each other, many friends and their dad to play with.
>interested in so many things, like they are. I am getting better,
>but I don't see myself ever being like them again. Actually, I never
>was anything like them. They are amazing, and I'm not the only one
>that notices! My 5 year old has decided to give me playing lessons.
>I've found that if I sit down with them, and start building legos, or
>painting a picture, a real, creative side of me comes out. I just
>need to do it more. I need to push myself in that direction more.
>Joanna
I know there are a lot of playing moms out there so please don't be shocked or think I'm terrible. I'm just different than you.
We took the Myers-Briggs personality profile test and it hit the nail on the head with me. My personality loves to work and if there is any time left *maybe* I'll find time to play. Allison is the complete opposite. Her personality type loves to play and maybe if there is time will do a little work.
We had a heart-to-heart talk not too long ago and she told me she never wants to grow up. She said she was afraid she would not be able to play any more. I assured her she will always be able to play and that the job she picks will feel like playing to her or she should not choose that career. I told her she could not use me as an example of what her life would be like because we are different and this is the way I like my life. She will be a playing mom!
I do like playing with them but it has to be thought provoking play or I get bored. <ugh>
Pat
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 1:25:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, PSoroosh@...
writes:
<<
My mom said that it is an exhausting lifestyle. She also says that when we
unschoolers talk about unschooling we talk about what we do NOT do a lot
more
than about what we do - or at least that people understand more easily what
we don't do, but that we tend to downplay how much work we put into our
interactions with our kids. >>
This sure is food for thought. I think she is right we do talk a lot about
what
we don't do. Maybe because sometimes its easier to discuss what
unschooling is not rather that what it is. I do know that when I mention
we hs to someone and they ask about it, I bubble over like a bottle of
champagne saying how great it is, how happy we are and we just learn
all the time from the world around us (that would be my short version LOL).
But when talking to other hs, say at park day, I can see where we might
start to define unschooling with the "we don't do" (kinda like you can't
make me--and sitting here thinking about it I think I may come across
as defensive from that stance...) with a few trust the children thrown in
there. I mean I come from a standpoint of trust from homebirth. So I
have been trusting the God/nature the human body since before my
children were born. but for some folk, its all so darn new to them and me
saying trust the children almost makes no sense to some. I mean,
trust the children, how do we trust the children they are thinking, when I
am saying it in such a inner-spiritual-feathery-free-floating-can't-grab-it-
-and-hold-it-and-dissect-it way? I just know it. How can I pass on
that knowing? I mean can I even? Each person has to find that
within themselves. Food for thought for me. Lots. Thanks. Cool
mom, btw Pam : )
Kathy
writes:
<<
My mom said that it is an exhausting lifestyle. She also says that when we
unschoolers talk about unschooling we talk about what we do NOT do a lot
more
than about what we do - or at least that people understand more easily what
we don't do, but that we tend to downplay how much work we put into our
interactions with our kids. >>
This sure is food for thought. I think she is right we do talk a lot about
what
we don't do. Maybe because sometimes its easier to discuss what
unschooling is not rather that what it is. I do know that when I mention
we hs to someone and they ask about it, I bubble over like a bottle of
champagne saying how great it is, how happy we are and we just learn
all the time from the world around us (that would be my short version LOL).
But when talking to other hs, say at park day, I can see where we might
start to define unschooling with the "we don't do" (kinda like you can't
make me--and sitting here thinking about it I think I may come across
as defensive from that stance...) with a few trust the children thrown in
there. I mean I come from a standpoint of trust from homebirth. So I
have been trusting the God/nature the human body since before my
children were born. but for some folk, its all so darn new to them and me
saying trust the children almost makes no sense to some. I mean,
trust the children, how do we trust the children they are thinking, when I
am saying it in such a inner-spiritual-feathery-free-floating-can't-grab-it-
-and-hold-it-and-dissect-it way? I just know it. How can I pass on
that knowing? I mean can I even? Each person has to find that
within themselves. Food for thought for me. Lots. Thanks. Cool
mom, btw Pam : )
Kathy
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 10:10:31 AM, bearspawprint@... writes:
<< But. Success rate? implication being failure.
Failure? Aren't there folks who just finally
acknowledge having not committed to follow though? >>
No. There are people who said they were unschoolers, discovered it wasn't
working, and started saying "Unschooling doesn't really work."
That doesn't help them OR us.
-=-Children, without
standardized boundaries can't fail. The only way to
fail at life is to die. I think.-=-
Or to get to 18 and not be a functioning adult. That gets called neglect if
they were homeschooled. And if they were in school, it's called the parents
didn't press the child to perform. <g>
Parents will be blamed either way, but if they were involved in some
experimental radical thing, that theory/practice will be condemned.
Lots of people see unschooling as just leaving kids alone, ignoring them.
It's wrong, but it's perpetuated by various homeschoolers. There's an
anti-unschooling article at the A to Z site, under unschooling. It's really
irritating in its misconceptions and false depictions. But there it is.
Sandra
Sandra
<< But. Success rate? implication being failure.
Failure? Aren't there folks who just finally
acknowledge having not committed to follow though? >>
No. There are people who said they were unschoolers, discovered it wasn't
working, and started saying "Unschooling doesn't really work."
That doesn't help them OR us.
-=-Children, without
standardized boundaries can't fail. The only way to
fail at life is to die. I think.-=-
Or to get to 18 and not be a functioning adult. That gets called neglect if
they were homeschooled. And if they were in school, it's called the parents
didn't press the child to perform. <g>
Parents will be blamed either way, but if they were involved in some
experimental radical thing, that theory/practice will be condemned.
Lots of people see unschooling as just leaving kids alone, ignoring them.
It's wrong, but it's perpetuated by various homeschoolers. There's an
anti-unschooling article at the A to Z site, under unschooling. It's really
irritating in its misconceptions and false depictions. But there it is.
Sandra
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 10:12:14 AM, sjogy@... writes:
<< A great book set in that time is Bud, Not Buddy. >>
Thanks.
We need another book to start.
Sandra
<< A great book set in that time is Bud, Not Buddy. >>
Thanks.
We need another book to start.
Sandra
Pat Cald...
From: SandraDodd@...
*If* I had a choice, it would be much easier to do school-at-home. My kids won't stand for it, or sit for it for that matter. The number one parenting rule for me is "THOU SHALT NOT SQUASH THE INDIVIDUAL".
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>About five years ago on AOL I started a thread trying to get help to make aBoy would I LOVE a "checklist of things a parent needs to be able to unschool". I would use it for inspiration - as a goal. Just because some of us don't *naturally* make good unschoolers doesn't mean we can't change or don't want to. I am really committed to making this work.
>checklist of things a parent needs to be able to unschool, and one of things
>that will prevent unschooling. Kind of a screening quiz, women's magazine
>style--"Do You Have What it Takes to Unschool?" as it were.
*If* I had a choice, it would be much easier to do school-at-home. My kids won't stand for it, or sit for it for that matter. The number one parenting rule for me is "THOU SHALT NOT SQUASH THE INDIVIDUAL".
>But I tink there are some families in which the parents didn't have what >theyCan you give an example?
>needed to unschool and so it didn't work out as well as it did in other
>families.
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 10:39:26 AM, Natrlmama@... writes:
<< I think she is right we do talk a lot about
what
we don't do. Maybe because sometimes its easier to discuss what
unschooling is not rather that what it is. >>
Maybe because first you have to stop doing the harmful-continuance stuff, and
kind of cleanse the palate before getting to the natural learning.
When I was in labor with Marty I became entirely exhausted and couldn't push
anymore. Contractions started coming on their own, BIG, pushing contractions
that started way high, in places I had no muscular control (muscles I didn't
know how to flex that way), and worked their own way down, like a snake
swallowing--like if my whole body was a snake swallowing. I wonder, if I had
stopped pushing earlier, if those would have come sooner? Later people were
saying "Don't push," and I said "I'm not--it's pushing itself." I've heard
of women delivering who were unconscious, long ago, after a day or two of
labor. I bet that's how.
Natural learning can't kick in until the decks are cleared of the structure
and expectations of school.
-=-How can I pass on
that knowing? I mean can I even? Each person has to find that
within themselves. -=-
Maybe we pass it on just by asking them probing questions.
Maybe we pass it on by telling stories of our own successes.
Maybe the intro should be changed, though. We're pretty good at "step away
from the curriculum." We're pretty good at "It takes a while to deschool."
But lots of seekers leave somewhere in there, before they get to the
DOING--they're still just setting out the ingredients and they leave and get
mad because that bowl of flower and packet of yeast and those eggs and oil
and salt didn't jump up and make themselves into bread.
But I think we're good at that too. I think there are dicussions galore
about what to do, how to live with your kids in an enriched and enriching
way, and what games and activities lead to more joyful idea-getting.
I think, sadly, there are just some people for whom it isn't going to work.
Sandra
<< I think she is right we do talk a lot about
what
we don't do. Maybe because sometimes its easier to discuss what
unschooling is not rather that what it is. >>
Maybe because first you have to stop doing the harmful-continuance stuff, and
kind of cleanse the palate before getting to the natural learning.
When I was in labor with Marty I became entirely exhausted and couldn't push
anymore. Contractions started coming on their own, BIG, pushing contractions
that started way high, in places I had no muscular control (muscles I didn't
know how to flex that way), and worked their own way down, like a snake
swallowing--like if my whole body was a snake swallowing. I wonder, if I had
stopped pushing earlier, if those would have come sooner? Later people were
saying "Don't push," and I said "I'm not--it's pushing itself." I've heard
of women delivering who were unconscious, long ago, after a day or two of
labor. I bet that's how.
Natural learning can't kick in until the decks are cleared of the structure
and expectations of school.
-=-How can I pass on
that knowing? I mean can I even? Each person has to find that
within themselves. -=-
Maybe we pass it on just by asking them probing questions.
Maybe we pass it on by telling stories of our own successes.
Maybe the intro should be changed, though. We're pretty good at "step away
from the curriculum." We're pretty good at "It takes a while to deschool."
But lots of seekers leave somewhere in there, before they get to the
DOING--they're still just setting out the ingredients and they leave and get
mad because that bowl of flower and packet of yeast and those eggs and oil
and salt didn't jump up and make themselves into bread.
But I think we're good at that too. I think there are dicussions galore
about what to do, how to live with your kids in an enriched and enriching
way, and what games and activities lead to more joyful idea-getting.
I think, sadly, there are just some people for whom it isn't going to work.
Sandra
Pam Hartley
----------
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling is hard work?
Date: Tue, Feb 12, 2002, 1:21 AM
So - I think maybe people hear about unschooling and think it is easy as in
not requiring effort. But it is the opposite - it takes HUGE parental effort
- constant awareness of each child's interests and needs and possibilities.
It means always carrying that awareness around with you everywhere so that
you're always making connections and noticing things that might be something
useful for your kids.
----------
I have difficulties in assigning words like "hard work" and "huge effort" to
unschooling. When I think of phrases like that, it implies (to me) a sort of
negative feeling about whatever it is: like doing taxes is hard work and
huge effort because I find it boring and tedious and have to force myself,
grumbling, to get to it.
So I have an objection to the terminology, I guess, at least as it applies
to my feelings about "hard work" and unschooling.
Unschooling is just... fun. It encompasses the activities I would do and the
thoughts I would have spending time with my daughters even if we'd never
heard of unschooling or homeschooling and they were in school (less time, of
course, and no doubt less energy on their part).
I feel the same way about my business and my housework -- they're just...
fun.
Maybe it's a personality thing? Maybe I'm just good at arranging my universe
so that I don't have to do much that I find tedious. Maybe I've a talent for
putting on rose-colored glasses to clean the toilet. <g> Maybe one or both
of these are a legitimate addition to Sandra's "Dress for Success" in
unschooling?
Occasionally, there will be tedium -- I don't much like getting up early on
Wednesdays, but it has to be done to take Brit to ice skating. I don't much
like housework-on-command (I prefer to be inspired by my housework muse <g>)
so mandatory cleaning for a party can cause a low-level discontent. I am not
fond of writing eBay descriptions, so that's one aspect of the business I
grit my teeth through a few hours a week.
Maybe I entirely missed Pam's Mom's point. <g>
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling is hard work?
Date: Tue, Feb 12, 2002, 1:21 AM
So - I think maybe people hear about unschooling and think it is easy as in
not requiring effort. But it is the opposite - it takes HUGE parental effort
- constant awareness of each child's interests and needs and possibilities.
It means always carrying that awareness around with you everywhere so that
you're always making connections and noticing things that might be something
useful for your kids.
----------
I have difficulties in assigning words like "hard work" and "huge effort" to
unschooling. When I think of phrases like that, it implies (to me) a sort of
negative feeling about whatever it is: like doing taxes is hard work and
huge effort because I find it boring and tedious and have to force myself,
grumbling, to get to it.
So I have an objection to the terminology, I guess, at least as it applies
to my feelings about "hard work" and unschooling.
Unschooling is just... fun. It encompasses the activities I would do and the
thoughts I would have spending time with my daughters even if we'd never
heard of unschooling or homeschooling and they were in school (less time, of
course, and no doubt less energy on their part).
I feel the same way about my business and my housework -- they're just...
fun.
Maybe it's a personality thing? Maybe I'm just good at arranging my universe
so that I don't have to do much that I find tedious. Maybe I've a talent for
putting on rose-colored glasses to clean the toilet. <g> Maybe one or both
of these are a legitimate addition to Sandra's "Dress for Success" in
unschooling?
Occasionally, there will be tedium -- I don't much like getting up early on
Wednesdays, but it has to be done to take Brit to ice skating. I don't much
like housework-on-command (I prefer to be inspired by my housework muse <g>)
so mandatory cleaning for a party can cause a low-level discontent. I am not
fond of writing eBay descriptions, so that's one aspect of the business I
grit my teeth through a few hours a week.
Maybe I entirely missed Pam's Mom's point. <g>
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 11:56:52 AM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< But lots of seekers leave somewhere in there, before they get to the
DOING--they're still just setting out the ingredients and they leave and get
mad because that bowl of flower and packet of yeast and those eggs and oil
and salt didn't jump up and make themselves into bread.
Paula
<< But lots of seekers leave somewhere in there, before they get to the
DOING--they're still just setting out the ingredients and they leave and get
mad because that bowl of flower and packet of yeast and those eggs and oil
and salt didn't jump up and make themselves into bread.
>>I'm using this one for sure!
Paula
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 10:48:52 AM, curtkar@... writes:
<< So I'm afraid that now that we are unschooling, we are still in this sort
of pattern. Did I cause harm to my boys by trying to homeschool them for the
past few years? >>
Some, but not irreparable.
<<Sometimes I wonder if I have somehow ruined my relationship with them and
they won't invite me in to their learning world >>
Maybe they don't have a learning world. They're probably still waiting for
you to come and tell them what they have to do next.
<<These past 5 months I have completely let go of all learning expectations
and they are free to do whatever they want to all day.>>
I think by "learning expectations" you mean specific points on a curve. I
hope you're not expecting them not to learn. (I know that's not what you
mean, but you might want to think hard about what you DO mean.)
<<But when it comes to me being involved in things that they are interested
in, they are still mostly choosing things that don't involve me. >>
And what are you choosing?
You wrote -=- I need to stop expecting them to want to "learn" about things
and instead just invite them to DO more things with me. Like play more games,
go for walks or hiking, and just to reestablish a newer "unschooling"
relationship with them, which I think I don't have yet.-=-
Yes. Get out of the house. Go where you've never been. Take food. Stay
late.
Rent movies and watch them, with popcorn and GOOD sodas (or the equivalent of
what your kids would like) and big pickles. Pause and rewind as much as
anyone wants to. Let them walk away if they're bored. Rentals can be
watched more than once before they have to go back, or can be taken back
half-watched.
I'm going to start another subject line with recommendations of movies.
-=-Another problem I have with my younger son is his ideas about being in
grades. He would be in 3rd grade right now, if he were in school. He tells me
(recently) that he wants to be in 4th grade. -=-
Say "okay."
Say okay we have a fourth grade field trip, and go somewhere. <g>
If you go to the mountains, you don't have to talk aboutthe mountains. You
don't have to talk about the path of the stream or what river it will
eventually run into. You do't have to identify trees or look for evidence of
wildlife. You can go to the mountains and talk about space ships. You can
go the the space center and talk about Shirley Temple. You can be watching a
Shirley Temple movie and talk about silk production and medieval trade routes.
Loosening up expectations doesn't mean not having any. It means having new
and different ones.
Sandra
<< So I'm afraid that now that we are unschooling, we are still in this sort
of pattern. Did I cause harm to my boys by trying to homeschool them for the
past few years? >>
Some, but not irreparable.
<<Sometimes I wonder if I have somehow ruined my relationship with them and
they won't invite me in to their learning world >>
Maybe they don't have a learning world. They're probably still waiting for
you to come and tell them what they have to do next.
<<These past 5 months I have completely let go of all learning expectations
and they are free to do whatever they want to all day.>>
I think by "learning expectations" you mean specific points on a curve. I
hope you're not expecting them not to learn. (I know that's not what you
mean, but you might want to think hard about what you DO mean.)
<<But when it comes to me being involved in things that they are interested
in, they are still mostly choosing things that don't involve me. >>
And what are you choosing?
You wrote -=- I need to stop expecting them to want to "learn" about things
and instead just invite them to DO more things with me. Like play more games,
go for walks or hiking, and just to reestablish a newer "unschooling"
relationship with them, which I think I don't have yet.-=-
Yes. Get out of the house. Go where you've never been. Take food. Stay
late.
Rent movies and watch them, with popcorn and GOOD sodas (or the equivalent of
what your kids would like) and big pickles. Pause and rewind as much as
anyone wants to. Let them walk away if they're bored. Rentals can be
watched more than once before they have to go back, or can be taken back
half-watched.
I'm going to start another subject line with recommendations of movies.
-=-Another problem I have with my younger son is his ideas about being in
grades. He would be in 3rd grade right now, if he were in school. He tells me
(recently) that he wants to be in 4th grade. -=-
Say "okay."
Say okay we have a fourth grade field trip, and go somewhere. <g>
If you go to the mountains, you don't have to talk aboutthe mountains. You
don't have to talk about the path of the stream or what river it will
eventually run into. You do't have to identify trees or look for evidence of
wildlife. You can go to the mountains and talk about space ships. You can
go the the space center and talk about Shirley Temple. You can be watching a
Shirley Temple movie and talk about silk production and medieval trade routes.
Loosening up expectations doesn't mean not having any. It means having new
and different ones.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 10:57:18 AM, pamhartley@... writes:
<< Maybe it's a personality thing? Maybe I'm just good at arranging my
universe
so that I don't have to do much that I find tedious. Maybe I've a talent for
putting on rose-colored glasses to clean the toilet. <g> Maybe one or both
of these are a legitimate addition to Sandra's "Dress for Success" in
unschooling? >>
It's fine with me, but isn't that asking a lot of new unschoolers?
"Be genetically optimistic.
Be spiritually evolved to the point that you can find joy in cleaning a
toilet."
I put one of the blue Vanish toilet-cleaning things in the toilet tank the
other day. Holly came in and said "MOM, somebody peed blue and didn't flush."
THAT is joy. <g>
Sandra
<< Maybe it's a personality thing? Maybe I'm just good at arranging my
universe
so that I don't have to do much that I find tedious. Maybe I've a talent for
putting on rose-colored glasses to clean the toilet. <g> Maybe one or both
of these are a legitimate addition to Sandra's "Dress for Success" in
unschooling? >>
It's fine with me, but isn't that asking a lot of new unschoolers?
"Be genetically optimistic.
Be spiritually evolved to the point that you can find joy in cleaning a
toilet."
I put one of the blue Vanish toilet-cleaning things in the toilet tank the
other day. Holly came in and said "MOM, somebody peed blue and didn't flush."
THAT is joy. <g>
Sandra
Karin
>Unschooling is *very* hard work for me and I wish I were better at it. You see, >the hardest thing for me is wanting to learn and be curious along with my kids. >I'm just not that way. I only want to learn about what *I* am interested in and >my interests are very limited and focused. It is a constant struggle for me.I'm still finding unschooling hard (after 5 months) because I wish my kids *were* interested in more things.
>I have to pretend to be interested and I know sometimes my kids can tell. >Virginia has actually told me to just pretend I'm interested when she can tell >I'm not and she needs me to be.
>I hope it gets better. I want to be more interested and curious. Oh I hope it >gets better!
>Pat >>
I would love to be curious and learn with them about ANYTHING. I have shown as much interest as I can in their gameboys and in the TV shows they like. If I point something out to them that I find interesting or that I think they might find interesting, they acted annoyed and uninterested.
This may have happened because I have been homeschooling them for the past 5 years. The thought of a nice, secure, comfortable curriculum is so soothing to me. Something that I would have LOVED to do when I was their age. Just do the required lessons every day and you will learn everything you need to know to have a good education, right? It's all spelled out, broken down into easy-to-follow instructions. Well, I tried to pass along those feelings of following a curriculum to my boys from the start and they have fought me and resisted just about every single thing. When I started, that's what I believed homeschooling was all about. What did I know about educating my kids? I HAD to search elsewhere for guidance in telling me what to learn when and how to learn it. But the trouble was that my boys never just went along with it all. Whenever I tried to introduce a new thing to learn about, they rejected it and made it very clear that they were not going to be these perfect homeschooling students. So I'm afraid that now that we are unschooling, we are still in this sort of pattern. Did I cause harm to my boys by trying to homeschool them for the past few years? Sometimes I wonder if I have somehow ruined my relationship with them and they won't invite me in to their learning world because of the past.
Maybe they are still deschooling from my homeschooling them? These past 5 months I have completely let go of all learning expectations and they are free to do whatever they want to all day. Like I said, that has been mostly playing gameboys and computer games all day and watching TV in between. Sometimes we have gone to the park (at their request) and they still are involved in their homeschooling group activities, which they really love. But when it comes to me being involved in things that they are interested in, they are still mostly choosing things that don't involve me.
I think I already know what I need to do. I need to stop expecting them to want to "learn" about things and instead just invite them to DO more things with me. Like play more games, go for walks or hiking, and just to reestablish a newer "unschooling" relationship with them, which I think I don't have yet.
Another problem I have with my younger son is his ideas about being in grades. He would be in 3rd grade right now, if he were in school. He tells me (recently) that he wants to be in 4th grade. In his mind, he is in whatever grade level that is says on the books he is working on. For example, he is about 1/2 was through the Saxon 3rd grade math book. (this is where he was when we started unschooling - he has worked on about 10 pages - his choice - since we started). Well, he wants to finish that book so that he can start on the Saxon 54 book (the next level) and "be" in 4th grade. How do I, or even 'should' I, explain to him that he doesn't need to rely on school grades any more? Apparantly they still mean a lot to him.
Homeschooling was hard for us because my boys flat out refused to comply with doing the work. And now I'm feeling that unschooling is much more suitable for us, just for the fact that there is more peace in the house and my relationship has definitely improved with my kids since I'm not demanding things of them anymore. But I think we still have not evolved to a nice flow of an unschooling household yet. Or maybe we are on our way and have just not arrived there yet?
Thanks for listening.
Karin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>Thought-provoking conversations while playing? <g> (I can relate. I have
>
>I do like playing with them but it has to be thought provoking play or I
>get bored. <ugh>
a really hard time playing board or card games.)
Tia.
>PatNo one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
>
>
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Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
<< But there comes a point when I think you have to stop learning about
unschooling and just start doing it. >>
WAIT!
You don't learn to ride a bicycle, and then STOP learning and just get on a
bicycle for the first time.
I think the assumption of people on this list is that the other people
they're talking to started doing it the moment they thought the word
"unschooling," and they're having these discussions WHILE riding the bicycle.
All the learning about without trying isn't learning. It's considering, and
thinking. If someone reads embroidery books (as I do, for fun, like fantasy)
but doesn't embroider (as I don't, because I'm very impatient and my stitches
aren't pretty), what's THAT!? It's me, appreciating other people's
embroidery, and looking at the beautiful pictures of ethnic, traditional
embroidery that I can't personally do.
But if I really do decide here that I want to DO IT, I can't do it without a
project in mind, some cloth, thread and a needle. And just putting them on
the table (like the bread ingredients on the counter) won't do it. *I* have
to do the doing. And that's no time to get rid of those books I've admired
all these years.
Sandra
unschooling and just start doing it. >>
WAIT!
You don't learn to ride a bicycle, and then STOP learning and just get on a
bicycle for the first time.
I think the assumption of people on this list is that the other people
they're talking to started doing it the moment they thought the word
"unschooling," and they're having these discussions WHILE riding the bicycle.
All the learning about without trying isn't learning. It's considering, and
thinking. If someone reads embroidery books (as I do, for fun, like fantasy)
but doesn't embroider (as I don't, because I'm very impatient and my stitches
aren't pretty), what's THAT!? It's me, appreciating other people's
embroidery, and looking at the beautiful pictures of ethnic, traditional
embroidery that I can't personally do.
But if I really do decide here that I want to DO IT, I can't do it without a
project in mind, some cloth, thread and a needle. And just putting them on
the table (like the bread ingredients on the counter) won't do it. *I* have
to do the doing. And that's no time to get rid of those books I've admired
all these years.
Sandra
joanna514
Thanks for all that input.
I'm wondering about a few things though. My kids are having no
problems unschooling, and I am usually so amazed by the things they
come up with, that I don't feel I need to be a part of it very much.
They do a lot of role playing and dressing up and theater and
dance....
We've had some great tangents with topics from the presidents to
Shakespeare to bugs. It seems to come from all directions once an
interest piques. I don't have a problem with the looking for and
providing and being alert about subjects and having
conversations....that all does come naturally. It's the actual
playing, or real investigating that I don't get in to.
My dd has lots of great interests. Is very into fashion through the
ages, which has lead to lots of differents interests of time periods
and different countries and languages. She loves old movies. I just
don't always watch them with her. Sometimes I do. I still have 3
others to care for though and it's not easy to watch a movie. I do
the some of it here and there til I see the whole thing. My 8yo ds
is into many different things that I'm not even close to being
interested in.
I listen and ask questions, but my dh is there with him through a lot
of his things, so I don't feel to bad there.
I don't do the imaginary play very much, with my little ones. (*or*
my big ones who are usually the directors of much of it) I
sometimes will take on a limited role such as "the cook" or the mean
witch who only has to cackle at someone when they come near.
I don't sit down and play with playdough very often, or color picures
or watch rugrats... I'm not a math or science person, and don't get
into doing science projects or math puzzles. We do play games and
love cards, but there are so many other ways to look at math, that I
don't even consider or have an interest in. Though i do find us
talking about those things at times, because of questions asked or
situations that come up, and then I feel better.
Anyway....when you say 6 hours a day, do you mean 6 hours doing
things directly with my kids such as watching tv, reading,
cooking.... or do you mean, 6 hours of trying to be more interested
in things myself? Or both. I don't ever turn unschooling off. But I
do need to make *myself* be more on. I always feel better when I
am. It can be exhausting at times though, and I seem to go into veg
out mode. Or I can become irritable.
Anyway, I'm putting off my 5yo making cookies with me, so I can write
this. (maybe I'm just a little too selfish??)
Joanna; who has come to realize, that unschooling is as much about
self evaluation and growth as it is about giving kids freedom!
I'm wondering about a few things though. My kids are having no
problems unschooling, and I am usually so amazed by the things they
come up with, that I don't feel I need to be a part of it very much.
They do a lot of role playing and dressing up and theater and
dance....
We've had some great tangents with topics from the presidents to
Shakespeare to bugs. It seems to come from all directions once an
interest piques. I don't have a problem with the looking for and
providing and being alert about subjects and having
conversations....that all does come naturally. It's the actual
playing, or real investigating that I don't get in to.
My dd has lots of great interests. Is very into fashion through the
ages, which has lead to lots of differents interests of time periods
and different countries and languages. She loves old movies. I just
don't always watch them with her. Sometimes I do. I still have 3
others to care for though and it's not easy to watch a movie. I do
the some of it here and there til I see the whole thing. My 8yo ds
is into many different things that I'm not even close to being
interested in.
I listen and ask questions, but my dh is there with him through a lot
of his things, so I don't feel to bad there.
I don't do the imaginary play very much, with my little ones. (*or*
my big ones who are usually the directors of much of it) I
sometimes will take on a limited role such as "the cook" or the mean
witch who only has to cackle at someone when they come near.
I don't sit down and play with playdough very often, or color picures
or watch rugrats... I'm not a math or science person, and don't get
into doing science projects or math puzzles. We do play games and
love cards, but there are so many other ways to look at math, that I
don't even consider or have an interest in. Though i do find us
talking about those things at times, because of questions asked or
situations that come up, and then I feel better.
Anyway....when you say 6 hours a day, do you mean 6 hours doing
things directly with my kids such as watching tv, reading,
cooking.... or do you mean, 6 hours of trying to be more interested
in things myself? Or both. I don't ever turn unschooling off. But I
do need to make *myself* be more on. I always feel better when I
am. It can be exhausting at times though, and I seem to go into veg
out mode. Or I can become irritable.
Anyway, I'm putting off my 5yo making cookies with me, so I can write
this. (maybe I'm just a little too selfish??)
Joanna; who has come to realize, that unschooling is as much about
self evaluation and growth as it is about giving kids freedom!
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/12/02 8:21:12 AM, Wilkinson6@m... writes:
>
> << I just
> need to do it more. I need to push myself in that direction more.
>>
>
> Maybe you could chart six hours a day that you're
really "unschooling," until
> you get better at it?
>
> I've had conversations a couple of times just recently with others,
about it
> seeming that some people think unschooling is throwing the
curriculum away
> (or selling it to some poor unsuspecting family) and then just
waiting for
> the kids to reconstruct it on their own, for fun. And at the
extreme, some
> unschooling families take phrases like "child led" and think they
can just
> ignore the kids for days on end and they'll still be learning just
as well.
>
> Once in a chat, someone said "how many hours a day does unschooling
take?"
> One of us said "none of them" and another said "all of them."
>
> Does that mean twelve of them?
>
> What it means is that once it's working, you don't have some hours
when you
> unschool and some when you don't. It doesn't end. But "it" isn't
letting
> the kids try to learn all by themselves without the input or
prodding or
> jollying or encouragement of people who know more than they do.
And that
> doesn't always have to be the mom. Part of "doing it" can be
seeking out and
> appreciating the times your kids are in the company of other people
who know
> things they don't--other kids, older teens, other parents, whatever.
>
> The other night Holly watched a movie without me. I was doing
things that
> couldn't be done where she was. I really would rather have watched
it with
> her, because she would have questions she's not going to ask aloud
if nobody
> else is in the room, and there were places in the movie I would
have
> commented on this or that. So after her first session of watching
it, I made
> myself go and watch it with her. It took us four sittings, after
all, to
> finish it, but it was better to watch it with her. It
was "Everybody Sing,"
> a Judy Garland movie from the 30's.
>
> There's a lot to discuss in any old movie. The good trick is
figuring out
> how much is too much to tell, and what the child wants to know or
would be
> interested in but just doesn't know it. I could tie in litle bits
with
> things she already knew. She enjoyed pointing out similarities to
the Wizard
> of Oz (the actress who did Glenda, the Witch of the North, plays
her mom in
> this one), and common elements with other 30's stuff we've seen
lately, which
> is lots. It has been Depression month here, mostly coincidently,
but some
> because Holly loved the movie Paper Moon, and wanted some of the
songs. Then
> I rented Top Hat so she could see Cheek to Cheek in context. And I
had
> ordered Duck Soup to rent, just for me, and realized it was the
same period,
> and had some of the same elements too--fantasy sets, women dressed
fabulously
> (as escapism for those who could barely afford a movie), exotic and
fantasy
> locations.
>
> I'm not telling this to suggest people go and get those movies and
create
> that interest. The interest came first and gradually, but I built
on it. It
> cost me $35 for the CD of songs (but if I'd been wise in the ways
of
> downloading songs and had a CD maker I could have done
differently). She has
> listened to it lots, and played it for guests, and learned lots of
lyrics.
> I've rented a few movies I might not have otherwise. $12. We sat
one day
> eating lunch, watching a crew working on a new store they're
putting in near
> us. Brick layers, concrete pouring. We parked and watched them
like a
> drive-in, and she asked questions about the Great Depression, and I
told her
> stories I'd heard from grandparents and an elderly teacher. We
talked about
> these guys, who were working in a light snow, and how unemployed
they would
> have been in the 30's. She said if SHE had been mayor, she would
have made
> it illegal to wear shoes, so people without shoes wouldn't have
felt bad.
> And she would have sold all the shoes and redistributed the money.
>
> Holly never saw any pre-rubber-soul shoes all worn out, from those
days, so I
> kept my mental picture to myself. But I asked who would buy the
shoes? Even
> now, used shoes don't sell for more than five or ten dollars a
pair, and in
> those days a nickel was real money you could buy food with.
>
> No pre-fab lesson on the Depression would have gone to just the
point in her
> thinking where she was. I had to deal with her, directly, with the
questions
> and ideas she was having. At one point my food was done and I was
getting
> cold, and I started the car and started to back out. She
said "Where are we
> going!? I'm still having fun."
>
> I said sorry, I was getting cold. So I turned the engine and
heater on, and
> we stayed until she said we should go.
>
> If I'd had a good reason to leave right then, she would have
understood. I
> didn't, and she wanted to stay a while, and so I understood.
>
> Yesterday we went to a play, a travelling group doing a show for
school
> groups. It was a musical of The Boxcar Children. It started off
talking
> about the Great Depression. The Wednesday before, we got backstage
tours of
> the Albuquerque Little Theatre (separate tours, as it turns out <g>-
-she was
> with the homeschooling group, and I found old friends of mine were
working on
> sets). It was built by the WPA. Of all the kids in that group of
21 kids,
> Holly probably knew and cared more about what that meant than
anyone. On the
> way home we talked about the construction jobs, the clerical and
acting and
> directing jobs, and the relief from fear and boredom that going to
a play
> would have meant for other people too, in those days. And there
the theatre
> still stood, still being used.
>
> You can't plan months like we're having. You can practice with
little
> things, practice being there WITH your child (mentally, playfully,
> intellectually, not just physically) and following on his or her
lead.
> Maybe six hours a day, until you're doing it all the time without
trying.
>
> Sandra
Karin
<< So I'm afraid that now that we are unschooling, we are still in this sort
of pattern. Did I cause harm to my boys by trying to homeschool them for the
past few years? >>
< Some, but not irreparable. >>
I needed to hear that!
<<Maybe they don't have a learning world. They're probably still waiting for
you to come and tell them what they have to do next.>>
I think you're right about this.
<<These past 5 months I have completely let go of all learning expectations
and they are free to do whatever they want to all day.>>
<<But when it comes to me being involved in things that they are interested
in, they are still mostly choosing things that don't involve me. >>
Rent movies and watch them, with popcorn and GOOD sodas (or the equivalent of
what your kids would like) and big pickles. Pause and rewind as much as
anyone wants to. Let them walk away if they're bored. Rentals can be
watched more than once before they have to go back, or can be taken back
half-watched. >>
I get the idea. Thanks for the suggestions. I know I need to start DOING things.
Sandra >>
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you Sandra!
Karin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of pattern. Did I cause harm to my boys by trying to homeschool them for the
past few years? >>
< Some, but not irreparable. >>
I needed to hear that!
<<Maybe they don't have a learning world. They're probably still waiting for
you to come and tell them what they have to do next.>>
I think you're right about this.
<<These past 5 months I have completely let go of all learning expectations
and they are free to do whatever they want to all day.>>
>I think by "learning expectations" you mean specific points on a curve. IYes, by learning expectations, I mean do a required amount of math, grammar, spelling, history, etc. in a day or weeks time. I've let go of expecting them to "perform" for me in this way.
>hope you're not expecting them not to learn. (I know that's not what you
>mean, but you might want to think hard about what you DO mean.)>>
<<But when it comes to me being involved in things that they are interested
in, they are still mostly choosing things that don't involve me. >>
>And what are you choosing? >>I'm choosing to watch them do what they do. I haven't been choosing enough of just doing things which may or may not involve them. I've also been choosing to learn as much as I can about unschooling so I can change my mindset and deschool myself. But there comes a point when I think you have to stop learning about unschooling and just start doing it. For example, I really like to paint and I love to look at painting books and imagine that I can paint these great pictures, but unless I start REALLY painting and making mistakes and trying to correct myself and get better, I know I'll never really be a painter. I know I need to start painting and also start unschooling!
>Yes. Get out of the house. Go where you've never been. Take food. Staylate.
Rent movies and watch them, with popcorn and GOOD sodas (or the equivalent of
what your kids would like) and big pickles. Pause and rewind as much as
anyone wants to. Let them walk away if they're bored. Rentals can be
watched more than once before they have to go back, or can be taken back
half-watched. >>
I get the idea. Thanks for the suggestions. I know I need to start DOING things.
>Loosening up expectations doesn't mean not having any. It means having newand different ones.
Sandra >>
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you Sandra!
Karin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karin
<< But there comes a point when I think you have to stop learning about
unschooling and just start doing it. >>
<WAIT!
<You don't learn to ride a bicycle, and then STOP learning and just get on a
<bicycle for the first time.
<I think the assumption of people on this list is that the other people
<they're talking to started doing it the moment they thought the word
<"unschooling," and they're having these discussions WHILE riding the bicycle. >>
Okay, maybe I phrased that entirely wrong. Maybe you never STOP learning about unschooling but there comes a point when you need to start incorporating all the wonderful ideas you read and hear about instead of just letting those ideas just sit. And maybe I need to get off the computer now! <g>
Karin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling and just start doing it. >>
<WAIT!
<You don't learn to ride a bicycle, and then STOP learning and just get on a
<bicycle for the first time.
<I think the assumption of people on this list is that the other people
<they're talking to started doing it the moment they thought the word
<"unschooling," and they're having these discussions WHILE riding the bicycle. >>
Okay, maybe I phrased that entirely wrong. Maybe you never STOP learning about unschooling but there comes a point when you need to start incorporating all the wonderful ideas you read and hear about instead of just letting those ideas just sit. And maybe I need to get off the computer now! <g>
Karin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/12/02 12:43:33 PM, Wilkinson6@... writes:
<< Anyway....when you say 6 hours a day, do you mean 6 hours doing
things directly with my kids such as watching tv, reading,
cooking.... or do you mean, 6 hours of trying to be more interested
in things myself? Or both. >>
I mean not leaving them on automatic and living as though you didn't have
kids in the house instead of kids at school.
Son't treat it as something that will take less of your involvement than
having them in school would (the clothes prep, waking up, feeding, delivery,
pick-up, permission slips, meetings with teachers, homework help) or less
involvement than school-at-home would take.
-=- My 8yo ds
is into many different things that I'm not even close to being
interested in.
I listen and ask questions, but my dh is there with him through a lot
of his things, so I don't feel to bad there.=-
If you see that he has a partner to share his enthusiasm, that's kinda taking
care of itself. There've been things Kirby and Marty do with and for each
other than I don't then have to know about. Video game rules and cheatcodes.
The rules and new sets of Magic cards, L5R, Warlords, Doomtown, etc. I
didn't have to know much at all about MageKnights, just listen passively and
nod. And I knew enough to be appreciative when Kirby's boss gave him a
MageKnight Santa Christmas ornament this year.
If I had an only child I'd have to know more.
Holly likes Barbie. I have a Barbie aversion. So I spent extra attention on
making sure she had people to play Barbies with, and I never discouraged
Barbie play. I'd look for Barbie loot at thrift stores, and I'd help her
organize her stuff (when she was littler)--talked her dad into making her a
little Barbie closet, etc. Even without actually playing I could
contribute to her interest. And I would dutifully put the clothes on when
she was too little to do it, and snap the snaps, or whatever (when there
wasn't velcro).
Sandra
<< Anyway....when you say 6 hours a day, do you mean 6 hours doing
things directly with my kids such as watching tv, reading,
cooking.... or do you mean, 6 hours of trying to be more interested
in things myself? Or both. >>
I mean not leaving them on automatic and living as though you didn't have
kids in the house instead of kids at school.
Son't treat it as something that will take less of your involvement than
having them in school would (the clothes prep, waking up, feeding, delivery,
pick-up, permission slips, meetings with teachers, homework help) or less
involvement than school-at-home would take.
-=- My 8yo ds
is into many different things that I'm not even close to being
interested in.
I listen and ask questions, but my dh is there with him through a lot
of his things, so I don't feel to bad there.=-
If you see that he has a partner to share his enthusiasm, that's kinda taking
care of itself. There've been things Kirby and Marty do with and for each
other than I don't then have to know about. Video game rules and cheatcodes.
The rules and new sets of Magic cards, L5R, Warlords, Doomtown, etc. I
didn't have to know much at all about MageKnights, just listen passively and
nod. And I knew enough to be appreciative when Kirby's boss gave him a
MageKnight Santa Christmas ornament this year.
If I had an only child I'd have to know more.
Holly likes Barbie. I have a Barbie aversion. So I spent extra attention on
making sure she had people to play Barbies with, and I never discouraged
Barbie play. I'd look for Barbie loot at thrift stores, and I'd help her
organize her stuff (when she was littler)--talked her dad into making her a
little Barbie closet, etc. Even without actually playing I could
contribute to her interest. And I would dutifully put the clothes on when
she was too little to do it, and snap the snaps, or whatever (when there
wasn't velcro).
Sandra