Lyla Wolfenstein

Does something so biased even deserve a response?>>>>>>>>>>>>>



that's what i was pondering - maybe - depending on how many would read it?

Lyla
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-
Does something so biased even deserve a response?-=-

I responded not for the author's sake, but for those who will wade
through the comments.
I tried to be calming. <g>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JoyErin

-= I responded not for the author's sake, but for those who will wade
through the comments.
I tried to be calming. <g> =-

And you were - very nicely done. Writers like her, when I'm in the right
mind set, give me a chuckle. While trying to make a point of how terrible
they think something is they end up making themselves look bad and so in the
process, imo, make the other side look like something worth finding out more
about. <g>

Joy












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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

In what might be seen as a victory of sorts, there is a second article, with
some backtracking. But now unschoolers are being told to "tone down our
rhetoric" to prevent neglectful parents from hiding behind the label.

Isn't that called "blaming the victim" somewhere or other? I commented
citing the First Amendment.

http://tinyurl.com/m4xy6d

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com


> http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-10127-Norfolk-Homeschooling-Examiner~y2009m7d1-Some-may-call-it-unschooling-I-call-it-educational-neglect

Gwen

I was on an attachment parenting yahoo group with the author when our kids were little...our kids are only six months apart in age.  I was always fascinated by what Ben & Shira were doing because it usually meant Megan would be doing it soon!  I think she dropped off the list (either no mail or just faded away) when the kids were around four.  I think she went the "Well Trained Mind" route of homeschooling.

They'd make an amazing unschooling family if they changed their perspective.

She isn't the first person I've come across who has met one or more unschooling families that have turned them off unschooling.

Gwen

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:

In what might be seen as a victory of sorts, there is a second article, with
some backtracking. But now unschoolers are being told to "tone down our
rhetoric" to prevent neglectful parents from hiding behind the label.

Isn't that called "blaming the victim" somewhere or other? I commented
citing the First Amendment.

http://tinyurl.com/m4xy6d

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com


> http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-10127-Norfolk-Homeschooling-Examiner~y2009m7d1-Some-may-call-it-unschooling-I-call-it-educational-neglect





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-She isn't the first person I've come across who has met one or more
unschooling families that have turned them off unschooling.-=-

People use that as an excuse, though, when they weren't really wanting
to do something. It's easier to point and blame someone or something
instead of saying "I thought about it, but I want to do something
different."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

The funny thing is, there are "out of control" (or bratty or whatever
you want to call it) kids whose parents use curriculum on them, too.
Nobody blames the curriculum for wild or difficult behavior. I think
what really happens is that there are kids who are intense or explosive
or more prone to impulsive behaviors, etc., out there in all groups. But
when we (unschoolers) have kids like that, we aren't seen as "doing
something about it," because we don't shame and punish - especially
because we don't shame and punish right then and there in front of
everybody, like other parents do. I've had parents tell me, "If you just
let that go, it will only get worse." They assume that I'm just letting
things go because they don't see my way of responding - which is
certainly not going to be to loudly shame my child or punishing her.

On the other hand,I also think there are a lot of people who come to
unschooling and don't want to shame and punish, but don't know what else
to do and their kids are not necessarily getting the kind of counseling
and guidance and parental supervision and intervention that they need.

In my opinion, erring on the side of not punishing and shaming seems to
work out better, in the long run, but there are some unschooled kids
whose behavior gets in the way of them achieving current happiness or
who impose enough difficulties on other people so that others don't want
to be around them. Sometimes parents are ignoring problems in the name
of not punishing or shaming and that's not the idea response, either.

-pam

On 7/2/2009 12:07 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-She isn't the first person I've come across who has met one or more
> unschooling families that have turned them off unschooling.-=-
>
> People use that as an excuse, though, when they weren't really wanting
> to do something. It's easier to point and blame someone or something
> instead of saying "I thought about it, but I want to do something
> different."
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sometimes parents are ignoring problems in the name
of not punishing or shaming and that's not the idea response, either.-=-

A parent who doesn't have the natural instinct or talent or skill to
advise persuasively might have been ineffectual with punishments too,
I think.

It's a hard thing for me, thinking that Howard Gardner is really on to
something about interpersonal intelligence, and then thinking
unschooling takes a lot of interpersonal intelligence and then
realizing some kids don't have it because their parents don't have it
and.... unschooling isn't going to work as well for them as for some
others. BUT... if the parents are that way, and the kids are that
way, school might easily be even more baffling for them than
unschooling is.

Still, I remember after one of the Live and Learn conferences there in
the middle of them, a mom complaining on a list afterwards that it was
JUST LIKE SCHOOL, because some of the girls were friends from the year
before and her daughter felt there were cliques she wasn't part of.

I think what's just like school is expecting the kids to be nice to
all the other kids who are unschooled and at a conference, as though
they're in the same school and "have to" be nice. Mostly the kids
ARE nice, but if mothers come to me and say "Make your kids be
friendly with everyone equally, that's more like the conditions of an
institution.

Nothing is perfect, but some things are better than they would be if
we weren't at least headed in the direction of peace and light and
learning and all that good stuff.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sometimes parents are ignoring problems in the name
of not punishing or shaming and that's not the idea response, either.-=-

A parent who doesn't have the natural instinct or talent or skill to
advise persuasively might have been ineffectual with punishments too,
I think.

It's a hard thing for me, thinking that Howard Gardner is really on to
something about interpersonal intelligence, and then thinking
unschooling takes a lot of interpersonal intelligence and then
realizing some kids don't have it because their parents don't have it
and.... unschooling isn't going to work as well for them as for some
others. BUT... if the parents are that way, and the kids are that
way, school might easily be even more baffling for them than
unschooling is.

Still, I remember after one of the Live and Learn conferences there in
the middle of them, a mom complaining on a list afterwards that it was
JUST LIKE SCHOOL, because some of the girls were friends from the year
before and her daughter felt there were cliques she wasn't part of.

I think what's just like school is expecting the kids to be nice to
all the other kids who are unschooled and at a conference, as though
they're in the same school and "have to" be nice. Mostly the kids
ARE nice, but if mothers come to me and say "Make your kids be
friendly with everyone equally, that's more like the conditions of an
institution.

Nothing is perfect, but some things are better than they would be if
we weren't at least headed in the direction of peace and light and
learning and all that good stuff.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
> thought some might want to reply
>
> http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-10127-Norfolk-Homeschooling-Examiner~y2009m7d1-Some-may-call-it-unschooling-I-call-it-educational-neglect
>
> Lyla
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



My response just posted:

"Now that you've added the disclaimer - "I know that there are
unschoolers who give their children a fine education. However, my
issue is not with them, it is with those people who hide behind the
label of unschooling." - this article is not worth the paper it's
written on, is it?

Maybe you could rewrite it so that it's directed to the people you
apparently intended it to be directed to - the small minority of
"unschoolers' who give unschooling a bad name.

I'm happy to waive the apology to the rest of us. I can't speak for
others of course."

Hope that helps.

Bob

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Bob Collier" <bobcollier@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@> wrote:
> >
> > thought some might want to reply
> >
> > http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-10127-Norfolk-Homeschooling-Examiner~y2009m7d1-Some-may-call-it-unschooling-I-call-it-educational-neglect
> >
> > Lyla
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
> My response just posted:
>
> "Now that you've added the disclaimer - "I know that there are
> unschoolers who give their children a fine education. However, my
> issue is not with them, it is with those people who hide behind the
> label of unschooling." - this article is not worth the paper it's
> written on, is it?
>
> Maybe you could rewrite it so that it's directed to the people you
> apparently intended it to be directed to - the small minority of
> "unschoolers' who give unschooling a bad name.
>
> I'm happy to waive the apology to the rest of us. I can't speak for
> others of course."
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Bob
>



This is what happens when I get behind with my Google updates.
There's a follow up article here:
http://www.examiner.com/x-10127-Norfolk-Homeschooling-Examiner~y2009m7d2-Perhaps-unschooling-isnt-so-bad-after-all

Bob

Angela

<The funny thing is, there are "out of control" (or bratty or whatever
you want to call it) kids whose parents use curriculum on them, too.
Nobody blames the curriculum for wild or difficult behavior. I think
what really happens is that there are kids who are intense or explosive
or more prone to impulsive behaviors, etc., out there in all groups. But
when we (unschoolers) have kids like that, we aren't seen as "doing
something about it," because we don't shame and punish - especially
because we don't shame and punish right then and there in front of
everybody, like other parents do. >

I agree that there out of control children who are schooled in all possible
ways. Likely, there are more in public school than anywhere else because
it's the easiest path to follow and those parents who don't who aren't as
involved usually end up there by default. There are fewer Christian
homeschooled kids like that because often the parent is very controlling and
punishes it out of them. But sometimes it's a personality difference in the
mom that causes this and it has nothing to do with how the child is
schooled.

I have a friend, also a homeschooler (not unschooler), who has a real
difficulty with focusing on more than one thing at a time. If she is
chatting with me, she can't seem to hear her kids. Reminds me more of a
man's personality. In my experience, men have a harder time multi-tasking.

But no matter the cause, I can't stand being around parents who don't DO
anything about it. I'm not talking about shaming or blaming though. It
makes me crazy to go to play groups/home school groups or to even visit in
someone's home when they are more concerned with their own socialization (or
just oblivious to their child's needs) than helping their child navigate
through his/her own social world.

This same friend seems unable to hear anything else except what is right in
front of her. (I learned to interrupt her and point out that her child
wanted or needed her) She doesn't hear her child ask politely the first six
times but she hears him when he finally pitches a fit and makes sure he's
the biggest loudest thing around so she'll see him. And then he gets in
trouble. L

I've seen it play out differently in another family too. This family was
not the punitive type of family that the first was but the mom never
realized how much her child disrupted the group because she seemed to only
be focusing on her own socialization and oblivious to the chaos that
followed in her son's wake. It really seemed like she just didn't see it.
If someone pointed it out, she'd take notice and help her child but no one
wants to continually point out where someone else is failing.

I think it's even more important to be present with those children who are
prone to be intense or explosive.

One other thing that comes to play in this is I think, the fact that
homeschoolers tend to spend large blocks of time with each other and get to
see the details of each other's lives more than families whose kids go to
school. And unschooled families probably spend even more time in each
other's company than traditionally homeschooled kids because they aren't
spending hours on a curriculum. When your with someone for a huge block of
time you get to see the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Angela







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- There are fewer Christian
homeschooled kids like that because often the parent is very
controlling and
punishes it out of them.-=-

It might just stuff it down into them, and it can come bursting forth
in a cascade of crazy when they're old enough to leave home, get a
pickup and a bunch of liquor. (Thinking of my Christian cousins in
Texas; not homeschooled, but controlled within an inch of insanity,
and they had to say "yes ma'am" and "no sir" about it all too.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/3/2009 5:59 AM, Angela wrote:
> There are fewer Christian
> homeschooled kids like that because often the parent is very controlling and
> punishes it out of them.

The absolute most difficult kids in all the homeschool events and park
days and other activities I've been involved with, over the years, have
been schooled-at-home heavy-handed Christian homeschooled kids who were
all sweetness and light in front of their parents and who were sneaky
and mean away from them. There was one family - the other kids called
them "the violent _____ kids." Their reaction to anything not going
their way was to lash out and hurt the other kids - this was a large
family and most of the kids, but not all, were like this. The mother
would wash their mouths out with soap, spank them, make them sit next to
her for X minutes before they could go play again, etc. I remember how
she once went on and on about somebody else's kid using some "bad
language" and yet her kids were THE most cussing kids that my kids had
ever known.

So - maybe there are fewer, but i'm not sure that's true and even if it
is, they add "sneaky" (dishonest, untrustworthy) to their list of
problem behaviors which at least the so-called "out of control"
unschoolers don't have.

-pam

Angela Shaw

< So - maybe there are fewer, but i'm not sure that's true and even if it
is, they add "sneaky" (dishonest, untrustworthy) to their list of
problem behaviors which at least the so-called "out of control"
unschoolers don't have.>



I agree and have experienced the same thing. I didn't actually mean that
the "punishing it out of them" worked, but in front of their parents in a
group setting they tended to act nicely and not run around out of control.
One of the families of which I spoke has a 20 year old daughter who now has
three babies.none planed. When she was finally old enough o break loose,
she did it in a big way without have had the ability to practice being
responsible with small decisions first. I'm rushing, which is why I don't
post as often as I'd like. I hope it's clear what I meant. They act
politely in front on their parents and they are pleasant to be around in a
group with the parents looking on. It says nothing about what they do
behind their backs.



Angela



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heather

This is my first post on this list -though I have been reading
Unschooling Discussion for a few years, and unschoolingbasics, among others.

We have experienced difficulty ourselves with a couple of the
unschooling families in our area in the past- some hitting and very loud
and long rages from an older child, which seemed unusual. They were not
radically unschooling, at least at that point. Some unschooled kids are
given freedom perhaps to learn to read, etc in their own time, but are
not always treated respectfully in my observation - "discipline" seeming
fairly traditional. My kids used to fight often before I started to
read radical unschooling lists and apply those principles, though I said
I was unschooling for years before that. It took a long time for my kids
to behave differently at home after I began to shift my parenting.

At times I hear comments about the young people at our learning center
from some of the parents who parent traditionally and have kids with
quiet temperaments about some of the teen unschoolers- there are a
handful of them. To me they seem considerate and interested and excited
about life- but some of the parents object to their tendency to be very
physical and outspoken and silly. Yes, they could use some reminders
about what might be appropriate in the space or at that time, but there
is a tone of judgment in these comments and a lack of understanding of
their playfulness, too. I wonder sometimes if these parents just don't
know how to communicate with young people who are accustomed to having
their opinions and needs considered, and who would most likely respond
to a well-worded request. I have relationships with these kids and an
instance of behavior doesn't determine my whole picture of them, as it
might to a casual observer. They will always consider my requests quite
respectfully.

Also- I wonder - is it really important to all unschooling families at
all times to appear to be well behaved? It is important to me that my
kids have the kinds of experiences they want to have with people, and I
will offer them information that will help them make those choices. But
sometimes other things are more important than what people think. For
instance - my son loves to jump over and on objects such as benches,
walls, etc in public spaces. I will sometimes mention that perhaps a
certain wall or object may be owned by someone who may not appreciate it
being used in that way - but mostly he chooses to jump anyway as at that
moment what that hypothetical person MIGHT think is less important than
the fun of jumping- he can jump quite high, being over 6 feet tall. No
one has expressed any concerns, and if they did, I am pretty sure he
would stop immediately. This may not appear to be well-behaved to some.

Anyway - the article was mean-spirited and not at all true for the
majority of unschooling families that I know - but those are the
thoughts I had about the subject.

--
Heather (in NY State)

Angela Shaw

<I agree and have experienced the same thing. I didn't actually mean that
the "punishing it out of them" worked, but in front of their parents in a
group setting they tended to act nicely and not run around out of control.>



Clarifying what I said. It did work in the short term. Kids behaved well
in a group in front of their parents.

Those kids were easy to be around in a group.



I'm not condoning it, just saying what my experience was.



Angela





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela Shaw

<So - maybe there are fewer, but i'm not sure that's true and even if it
is, they add "sneaky" (dishonest, untrustworthy) to their list of
problem behaviors which at least the so-called "out of control"
unschoolers don't have.>



The times I went to Christian home school events with a friend of mine (one
was a six or eight week class so I saw the kids weekly for a couple of
sessions) the kids there were all very well behaved in front of their
parents. All of them. The ones I knew well WERE sneaky and mean behind
their parent's backs. Their relationships with their siblings were not
sweet, to say the least.

At the more liberal gatherings I've gone to (none all unschoolers but some
unschoolers ) there were a couple children who were quite disruptive to the
group. (one I know called themselves unschoolers) The moms were busy
socializing and were either oblivious to the disruption. condoned it, or
didn't know how to handle it so they opted to do nothing. On the whole
though, the mixed group seemed to have more relaxed parents who had more
relaxed children.

In both groups I felt that most of the parent's put their own socialization
ahead of their children's needs. Maybe I just see needs where other people
see normalcy. I don't feel that its normal to let children fight when an
easy solution is right at hand if you just help them navigate socially
instead of ignoring it till someone is really unhappy.

That's been my experience.

Angela







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/3/2009 4:34 PM, Angela Shaw wrote:
> In both groups I felt that most of the parent's put their own socialization
> ahead of their children's needs. Maybe I just see needs where other people
> see normalcy. I don't feel that its normal to let children fight when an
> easy solution is right at hand if you just help them navigate socially
> instead of ignoring it till someone is really unhappy.
>

After a long time of tolerating it, some of the more leader-types in our
group finally told someone that she really needed to stay right there
with her son while he was at the park. He was awful - he'd ram people
from behind while riding his big wheel trike, for example. He threw sand
into kids' eyes - a lot. And much more.

Her answer, "I come to the park for some adult time and I really need it
and I'm NOT going to follow my son around all day."

-pam

Jenny C

> We have experienced difficulty ourselves with a couple of the
> unschooling families in our area in the past- some hitting and very
loud
> and long rages from an older child, which seemed unusual.

I've met kids that were unschooling that were just plain mean and
disrespectful. The parents seemed nice enough, but it seemed an element
was missing from the relationship. I don't know... I have one child who
is really really intense and can be mean or rude at times, but I don't
"let" her be that way. It's better to take her out of that environment
than let her fail in the social skills area. It can be really hard
sometimes to give her the space and freedom to meet friends and play,
yet stay near enough to get involved right away if things go wrong.

>
I wonder sometimes if these parents just don't
> know how to communicate with young people who are accustomed to having
> their opinions and needs considered, and who would most likely respond
> to a well-worded request.

There are many adults who don't consider at all, that teens have a real
person inside of each body, that they are real humans that like to be
treated as such! Chamille is very sensitive to that sort of disrespect.
Most kids will respond well with polite requests. So many adults are
just so used to making demands and expecting prompt attention to those
demands. I've found that unschooled teens (most teens really) don't
jump up and comply with that sort of thing.


For
> instance - my son loves to jump over and on objects such as benches,
> walls, etc in public spaces. I will sometimes mention that perhaps a
> certain wall or object may be owned by someone who may not appreciate
it
> being used in that way - but mostly he chooses to jump anyway as at
that
> moment what that hypothetical person MIGHT think is less important
than
> the fun of jumping- he can jump quite high, being over 6 feet tall.

That's parkouring! It's super cool to watch! You should video him
doing it, people watch that kind of stuff on youtube! I'm super
impressed with people that can do that! If you do video him, send a
link, I want to see it!

saturnfire16

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- There are fewer Christian
> homeschooled kids like that because often the parent is very
> controlling and
> punishes it out of them.-=-
>
> It might just stuff it down into them, and it can come bursting forth
> in a cascade of crazy when they're old enough to leave home, get a
> pickup and a bunch of liquor. (Thinking of my Christian cousins in
> Texas; not homeschooled, but controlled within an inch of insanity,
> and they had to say "yes ma'am" and "no sir" about it all too.
>
> Sandra
>


I also know lots of Christians who were raised by very controlling, punitive parents. They either went wild as soon as they got out or became good, little doormats. Many of them repeat the cycle, but I know so many who are intentionally turning the tide and applying the same grace they've received to their children. I even know a few who are unschooling!

Ed Wendell

One of the gymnastics places here locally has classes/groups for Parkour - Zac took for a while last spring and is considering it again. Might be something your son is interested in doing. Might be a great way to redirect him from jumping on other's property. I know our son who just turned 15 last week is already over 6 feet and weighs (?) to match it. I don't know how much he weighs but he is solid - I know this from when he sits on my lap - ;) I would redirect him from jumping on other's benches if he was so inclined - it gets the benches dirty where others want to sit plus the impact would not be good for the bench. The other day his dad was hanging something and Zac immediately stepped up on a chair to help his dad and popped the cross braces out of the chair legs - that was with a gentle step up - a forceful jump would have probably shattered the chair.

Lisa W.





That's parkouring!
.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I can remember feeling frustrated watching other mom's socialize when Simon or Linnaea clearly weren't ready for me to be away from them for those lengths of time. It took a little while for me to really enjoy the company of all the children in a play group. And I would have most of the children in the group playing with us, following the leader, jumping in the sand, running around and playing the 3 Billy Goats Gruff on the structures. It took a while to realize that I enjoyed that so much that the loss of the conversational time with other moms didn't tip the scale. It was part of realizing that what I was doing, staying home and being the full time mom, wasn't a sacrifice it was a gift. I think lots of moms get stuck in the martyred place and can't quite let go of the idea that they are doing this for others and gaining nothing for themselves. It sucks for the mom and it sucks for the kids.

Simon and I cuddled on the couch today, and while I gentled tickled his back and looked at the moles and the birth mark there I thought about how fleeting all of this is. I got him now, but it is only now. I love getting this gift. I really love knowing that it is a gift.

Schuyler



________________________________
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 4 July, 2009 1:25:34 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling trashed in this article



On 7/3/2009 4:34 PM, Angela Shaw wrote:
> In both groups I felt that most of the parent's put their own socialization
> ahead of their children's needs.  Maybe I just see needs where other people
> see normalcy.  I don't feel that its normal to let children fight when an
> easy solution is right at hand if you just help them navigate socially
> instead of ignoring it till someone is really unhappy.
>   

After a long time of tolerating it, some of the more leader-types in our
group finally told someone that she really needed to stay right there
with her son while he was at the park. He was awful - he'd ram people
from behind while riding his big wheel trike, for example. He threw sand
into kids' eyes - a lot. And much more.

Her answer, "I come to the park for some adult time and I really need it
and I'm NOT going to follow my son around all day."

-pam


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Her answer, "I come to the park for some adult time and I really
need it
and I'm NOT going to follow my son around all day."-=-

Did you ask her to leave him home with a babysitter, then, or to stay
home with him herself?

That would have pissed me off, what she said.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I've met kids that were unschooling that were just plain mean and
disrespectful. The parents seemed nice enough, but it seemed an element
was missing from the relationship. I don't know... -=-

I've looked at families like that and wondered, and I have an idea.
It's not yet a theory, and it's far from being a conviction, but it's
a possibility.

There are genetic and social factors.
If parents are short-tempered, cynical, sarcastic and for one reason
or another wish other people would stop having bad opinions about
those things, they might find it sooothing or exhilarating to arrange
for a child to live in such a way that they believe being short-
temnpered, cynical and sarcastic are not going to be criticized, and
aren't going to cause any problems.

Unfortunately, the same character traits that left them clueless about
how to act left them just as clueless about the cause and
appropriateness of other people's reactions. So they decide that the
other people were wrong to have been negative and they pass their
theory/conviction on to their children in word and action.

So having dcided they're fine and others are rude and unreasonable,
and having stated that as fact to their children, then it become
difficult (as the scientific-community-changes discussed earlier) for
them to see other possibilities.

Meanwhile, they get the idea that unschoolers accept people's
differences, and therefor their children's differences will be
accepted, embraced, celebrated! Rewarded. Praised and appreciated.
They go first. Then the rest of us are expected to follow. If we
don't, it proves we're rude and unreasonable.

It's a cycle.

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> The funny thing is, there are "out of control" (or bratty or whatever
> you want to call it) kids whose parents use curriculum on them, too.
> Nobody blames the curriculum for wild or difficult behavior. I think
> what really happens is that there are kids who are intense or explosive
> or more prone to impulsive behaviors, etc., out there in all groups. But
> when we (unschoolers) have kids like that, we aren't seen as "doing
> something about it," because we don't shame and punish - especially
> because we don't shame and punish right then and there in front of
> everybody, like other parents do. I've had parents tell me, "If you just
> let that go, it will only get worse." They assume that I'm just letting
> things go because they don't see my way of responding - which is
> certainly not going to be to loudly shame my child or punishing her.
>














Hayden was (is) an intense kid. Unlike any kid I'd ever met before he was 6!

When he was 3, he was in a wedding, along with a 4 year old boy, and their
sisters, 5 and 6.
Everyone knows the risk of inviting small children to participate in a
wedding, or so I thought! The young boys were being young boys, bored in a
meaningless place, with grownups shushing them at every turn. The groom, my
cousin, asked if I'd consider medicating him (which was the parental answer
to the 4 year old's completely age-appropriate behaviors). I said, SURE! If
(1) I felt his behaviors were chemically mal-induced, (2) his dad hadn't
just died, and (3) *I* wasn't his mama. Shame and medications didn't make
it any easier for the other guy to leave legos and walk down the aisle; I
*knew* they'd not work for me and H.
So my calm demeanor and sweet whisperings were nothing to the observers and
*EVERYTHING* to the participants :D I remember we used a lot of Rescue
Remedy that day. Then again, we use a lot of RR at any big family gathering
;)

On the other hand,I also think there are a lot of people who come to
> unschooling and don't want to shame and punish, but don't know what else
> to do and their kids are not necessarily getting the kind of counseling
> and guidance and parental supervision and intervention that they need.
>
> In my opinion, erring on the side of not punishing and shaming seems to
> work out better, in the long run, but there are some unschooled kids
> whose behavior gets in the way of them achieving current happiness or
> who impose enough difficulties on other people so that others don't want
> to be around them. Sometimes parents are ignoring problems in the name
> of not punishing or shaming and that's not the idea response, either.
>













This was me. I was flailing, as a human being, when unschooling came into my
life (and here's where I touch on every single subject line we've had in the
past two weeks!!). My husband, whom I'd chosen carefully as
husband=balance-for-diana and daddy potential, had just died. I knew my
emotional fragility was not an excuse to resort to knee-jerk parenting. My
acute mourning kept me from having the energy to even do that; so there was
a big ol' chunk of time (6 months?) where we lived in a state of benign
neglect. Honestly. Luckily, I'd convinced my best friends to keep their kids
home from preschool and the 5 of them and three of us spent lots and lots of
time together, in various combinations.

Then I was challenged. I was awakened! I'd discovered unschoolingdotcom and
I kept going back and going back and going back... I felt like there was a
gold nugget of understanding inside me, and the list (and this list by
evolution) grabbed hold of it and shook (shakes!) my bull$hit off of it.
Every bit of advice I'd considered from my
mainstream-fringe-pretty-gentle-parenting friends was chucked out the
window. (i.e. I didn't *especially NEED* my kids to have bedtimes, because I
was a single mother and deserved time to myself - a true conversation I
found myself having over and over with concerned friends)

I remembered that part of this delicious pain I was feeling in missing Mitch
was bourne of connection; without that connection there is nothing to miss.
I remembered the risk of loss is worth the relationship. Thank ye every
god!! There was a delicious pain, too, in waking up to what this connection
means -- and what it doesn't. It means I hereby give up my life's turn at
being the boss o' the young ones; the job I've longed for since I was a
young one being bossed at.

There was no guide book, no Rules for how to be
diana-the-single-mama-who-wants-to-be-there-for-her-kids-in-the-memorable-way-her-dh-was;
instead I discovered a world of principles. Principles that work for the
crazy-flying-by-the-seat-of-her-pants-mama in the same way they work for the
family with life 180* from us! These principles helped me make the baby
steps necessary for me to see immediate benefit in my relationship (abililty
to relate) with my children.

These baby steps, cast light on the benefit of traveling (on a super
shoestring) to Boston, from South Dakota, to an unschooling conference. I
knew Sandra would be there with Marty & I knew Robyn would be there with
Jayn -- women whose stories I related to (thank you both for being REAL
people and telling REAL stories <3<3) I'd heard the energy with which
families returned home, inspired by the challenge and support of an
unschooling gathering. I made my first and only curriculum purchase: 7$
cassette recording of Sandra's Parenting
Peacefully<http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully>(then Peaceful
Parenting). Best lunch I ever skipped to afford it ;) I
listened all the way home (29 hours!) and most of it now lives in my head ;)

I can only tell you another anology: When I first tried to read LotR, I
didn't get it, I couldn't *see* it... Then along came Peter Jackson, who
gave me faces and voices and buildings and objects; it's all so easy to
understand, once I've seen it. This conference gave me unschooling in that
way. I just found my scrapbook with a photo of hayden + marty = BIG smiles
(almost 5 years later, there's still a very special bond there). Live &
Learn handed me a visual and energetic understanding of the real workings of
the principles in a multitude of real families. Across the globe!
I've been coached on how-to coach my intense boy from the coolest of all
unschooled kids. Their words I carry in my heart, they're especially loud
when things are tough for the me: "You are the Alpha AND the Omega" and "Let
him live to be 11" -- from young men whose perspectives on the world matter
much to me. I've gone many literal (and figurative) miles to gather the
support necessary to live a free life, not only for my children, also in my
own head; free from thoughts of ickiness and martyrdom mostly ;) I am duly
blessed, now, to live in a community where it is not only easy to be nice to
your kids, in general, there is a wonderful group of whole life unschoolers
and we gather whenever we can! (this afternoon even!!)

As a real human being who's had some real crazy off-roading-thru-life
experiences, we (my family) would not even be close to this place of
wonderful without the loving examples of unschooling we continue to draw
into our crazy-off-roading Life :D

And that's the Truth ::::ppppffffbbbbtttt:::::
~diana :) who is apparently feeling her inner Lily Tomlin today ;)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/3/2009 10:12 PM, Jenny C wrote:
> It can be really hard
> sometimes to give her the space and freedom to meet friends and play,
> yet stay near enough to get involved right away if things go wrong.
>

I think that's part of what Sandra is saying about parents and kids and
their interpersonal and intrapersonal intelligences. Some people might
find it too difficult to know how to support kids in behaving better.
They might not be good at catching on to what's about to happen, might
miss the build up to something, might especially not get other people's
kids. So they give up punitive parenting - stop punishing and spanking
and shaming and threatening, but they may not be good at persuading,
advising and supporting. Some people need other people's needs spelled
out for them - they don't just pick up on them naturally or easily.

I remember, for example, one mom who absolutely insisted that kids
MUST immediately "talk it out" when there was a conflict. And she and
her kids had their (very nice) way of resolving conflicts - her kids
were used to it and would willingly fall into it. But my middle
daughter, Roxana, was a very very intense kid, with extremely strong
feelings. It was too hard for her to try to participate in their
particular problem-solving approach - it took too much concentration at
a time when she was concentrating on not blowing up. She needed to be
left alone - often for just a couple of minutes - to get herself under
control, to think through her own emotions. The kids all liked each
other a lot - they're still friends 12 years later! But there was a
while that I had to be always there, not because of the kids, but
because the other kids were quick to call on their mom, and she wasn't
at all good at "reading" what Roxana needed. She escalated whatever
problems they were having by refusing to give Roxana even a few minutes.
They all were very very insistent that walking away, to be alone for a
few minutes, was NOT okay at all.

When this mom pushed her, Roxana would blow up and then storm away and
be unwilling to even continue playing. So - that mom thought Roxana was
pretty awful, for a while, anyway. She thought Roxana was unwilling to
compromise, to negotiate, to problem solve, etc. I had to show her,
multiple times, how Roxana was actually quite willing and quite adept at
all that, if she was given a little space and time to compose herself.

Interestingly, once this other mom got it about what Roxana needed, SHE
became very clear about it to her own kids and even to other parents. In
later years, I heard her tell other people, a few times, "Some kids need
some space and time before they're ready to problem solve." She just
hadn't experienced that need in herself or her own kids and didn't pick
up on it on her own.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/4/2009 9:21 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-Her answer, "I come to the park for some adult time and I really
> need it
> and I'm NOT going to follow my son around all day."-=-
>
> Did you ask her to leave him home with a babysitter, then, or to stay
> home with him herself?
>
> That would have pissed me off, what she said.
>
She was asked not to come back. She didn't. I felt a little bad because
I thought she could use the parenting help, but my kids didn't like hers
and didn't want to be around them.

-pam