Re: [AlwaysLearning] Little House in the Big Woods, was Re: Banish sca rcity
Robin Krest
"We liked the books, and even the politically incorrect
parts, but I wouldn't say they are a "must read."
I'm not sure what I would say is a must read.
Kelly Sturman"
While there is nothing that is really a must read for everyone, I will argue absolutely for introducing these books to children. They are well written and from a child's perspective most of the time. In the first book the only times things outside Laura's sight are told as stories. As she ages things are introduced into the storyline that she was not privy to and are not mentioned as stories...a maturing of the story telling process as the main character matures.
There are things that we shake our heads at today, but so what? If my child has questions about something that seem strange and unusual to him, he asks and we talk about it. I am sure when we read these books, if he wants to, he will have questions and we will talk and explore. Will you not read/introduce Huckleberry Finn, or Gone With the Wind, or other wonderful books because what is in them is not politically correct for the current time?
As for Ma's reactions to Indians, remember she also was a product of her time, and it is a counterpoint to Pa's wanderlust and desires to meet them. When Laura sees Indians, she wants to become one. What child hasn't? All these reactions are true to the characters, and provide an aspect to fill them out as full fictional people.
Before making a decision, do a little reading about these books, this storyline, what was put in and what was left out...I had a lot of admiration for the author and editor, and the stories themselves, after I learned more about them.
Robin Krest
____________________________________________________________
Criminal Lawyers - Click here.
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parts, but I wouldn't say they are a "must read."
I'm not sure what I would say is a must read.
Kelly Sturman"
While there is nothing that is really a must read for everyone, I will argue absolutely for introducing these books to children. They are well written and from a child's perspective most of the time. In the first book the only times things outside Laura's sight are told as stories. As she ages things are introduced into the storyline that she was not privy to and are not mentioned as stories...a maturing of the story telling process as the main character matures.
There are things that we shake our heads at today, but so what? If my child has questions about something that seem strange and unusual to him, he asks and we talk about it. I am sure when we read these books, if he wants to, he will have questions and we will talk and explore. Will you not read/introduce Huckleberry Finn, or Gone With the Wind, or other wonderful books because what is in them is not politically correct for the current time?
As for Ma's reactions to Indians, remember she also was a product of her time, and it is a counterpoint to Pa's wanderlust and desires to meet them. When Laura sees Indians, she wants to become one. What child hasn't? All these reactions are true to the characters, and provide an aspect to fill them out as full fictional people.
Before making a decision, do a little reading about these books, this storyline, what was put in and what was left out...I had a lot of admiration for the author and editor, and the stories themselves, after I learned more about them.
Robin Krest
____________________________________________________________
Criminal Lawyers - Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTOVoL3P6G8RQzXvEqkj0RJSZsGqWbkTfcPmXImmyfEpl9gdvn5W4Q/
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<and provide an aspect to fill them out as full fictional people.>>>
Huh? Real people weren't they - Laura Ingalls Wilder's real life
recollections?
I have read the entire collection. The final book was put together from her
mother's notes by Rose and is clearly unfinished and lacking in detail by
comparison.
From the first moments of the first book when Laura wrote about the joking
painless spanking one for each year on her birthday, I was waiting for the
real one. Dreading it colored my whole experience of reading the book.
My heart ached for Amalzo (sp?) as he waited in absolute terror for his
accidental damage to the wallpaper to be discovered. I was proud of his
sister for secretly helping him.
I was disgusted by Ma, not by her racist attitude towards Native Americans
because that really was so much a product of its time, but because of her
unbending, rigid desire to control her children - the narrowness of her
thinking over such picayune trivia as insisting on controlling what colored
ribbon they could wear in their hair, her shaming language and attitude
towards them, her endless comparing.
I think the saddest thing might have been Laura's perpetual and abiding
shame that she was not as good as her sister Mary. It seemed to me that her
moments of joy were entirely in the context of being lucky almost stolen,
undeserved. She saw herself as "less than" for her entire childhood, and for
that I blame her Ma and her Pa who beat her with a belt because in
frustration she hit her perfect sister. They were totally left alone to sort
out any differences they had also.
I suppose my greatest shock at the whole series was because I had only ever
heard it touted by homeschoolers especially as "so wonderful", Pa was such a
gentle father, Ma held up as a saint, their parenting (firm and fair)
supposed to be exemplary and to be emulated today. People in the
homeschooling movement seemed called to identify with the pioneer spirit.
Plus they had almost no toys so how perfect!
I found parents who were gentle only by the unbending standards of the time.
I was incredulous for most of my reading experience - "these are the
paragons of parenting virtue?"
I believe that we can do better.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Huh? Real people weren't they - Laura Ingalls Wilder's real life
recollections?
I have read the entire collection. The final book was put together from her
mother's notes by Rose and is clearly unfinished and lacking in detail by
comparison.
From the first moments of the first book when Laura wrote about the joking
painless spanking one for each year on her birthday, I was waiting for the
real one. Dreading it colored my whole experience of reading the book.
My heart ached for Amalzo (sp?) as he waited in absolute terror for his
accidental damage to the wallpaper to be discovered. I was proud of his
sister for secretly helping him.
I was disgusted by Ma, not by her racist attitude towards Native Americans
because that really was so much a product of its time, but because of her
unbending, rigid desire to control her children - the narrowness of her
thinking over such picayune trivia as insisting on controlling what colored
ribbon they could wear in their hair, her shaming language and attitude
towards them, her endless comparing.
I think the saddest thing might have been Laura's perpetual and abiding
shame that she was not as good as her sister Mary. It seemed to me that her
moments of joy were entirely in the context of being lucky almost stolen,
undeserved. She saw herself as "less than" for her entire childhood, and for
that I blame her Ma and her Pa who beat her with a belt because in
frustration she hit her perfect sister. They were totally left alone to sort
out any differences they had also.
I suppose my greatest shock at the whole series was because I had only ever
heard it touted by homeschoolers especially as "so wonderful", Pa was such a
gentle father, Ma held up as a saint, their parenting (firm and fair)
supposed to be exemplary and to be emulated today. People in the
homeschooling movement seemed called to identify with the pioneer spirit.
Plus they had almost no toys so how perfect!
I found parents who were gentle only by the unbending standards of the time.
I was incredulous for most of my reading experience - "these are the
paragons of parenting virtue?"
I believe that we can do better.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], "Robin Krest" <rlkrest@...>
I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a question
for the list or for me. I will answer for me.
The question was: Do these books offer learning
opportunities that can't be found elsewhere? My
answer is no. They don't.
I love everything from _A Hole is to Dig_ (so simple,
yet so profound!) and _A Tree is Nice_ and Shel Silverstein
right on through Joseph Campbell and "The Power of Myth."
Before my first child was born, I was a children's
librarian and a professional storyteller.
I have been a fan of the _Little House_ books since
I was a child. I read them again, and studied them in
depth, when I was obtaining my Master's degree in Library
Science. So, I HAVE done "a little reading about these books."
I like to compare the writing of the books written by
Rose Wilder, Laura's daughter, with the books written by
Laura herself, namely, _The First Four Years_ and Laura's travelogue. Yes, Laura's name appears as author on all the
books, but if you compare the writing of _The First Four Years_
and Laura's travelogue against the rest of the series, it
becomes clear that they were not written by the same person.
Read anything Rose wrote under her own name and it becomes even
more obvious that Rose wrote the beloved series. Laura may
have dictated, or Rose was inspired by Laura's childhood
recollections....
We really like these books. I have read them to all
of my children. My kids enjoyed them, and then Netflixing
the TV series, and comparing/contrasting the stories, the
characters, the worldview of the books, versus the TV show.
That said, if my adoptive children, who really have
experienced physical abuse, objected to the content
and wanted me to stop reading them aloud, I would
respect that. I would stop. Even though I, personally,
like the books.
My son, Caleb, decided to learn the fiddle tunes Pa
plays throughout the series. As I mentioned in an
earlier post, we churned butter and visited maple
farms to see the trees being tapped, and later, the
sap being boiled down into syrup, around the same
time we were reading the series. We've cooked
_Little House_ recipes and made _Little House_
crafts.
I am not a censor. But a mother asked if her
sensitive child, who happens to be of Native
American heritage, missed out by not reading
these books, if there were anything to be learnt
there that could be learned nowhere else, my
answer is no. I stand by that.
Yes, books, and TV, and movies, and life,
will present us with points of view and attitudes
we find offensive. And we will learn from looking
at and thinking about and discussing that which offends
us. But MUST the original poster's child read *these
particular books* in order to learn lessons that can be
learnt nowhere else?
I say no.
Yes, she will miss out on Rose Wilder's
lyrical prose, e.g., how she describes Laura
falling to sleep, under a prairie sky full of
stars, to the sounds of her Pa's fiddle.
Yes, I would put this series on a list of
books I recommend.
I still don't know what book(s) are absolute
must reads. That's a tough question: What
books MUST everybody read?
I admit I am responding with emotion. I
feel that I have been called a censor. But
I was a librarian who would have been willing
to go to jail rather than turn a patron's library
records over to the authorities. I am the furthest
thing from a censor that you can find.
It's funny that you mention _Huck Finn_. I am reading
that to the family right now. I didn't stop reading
to my kids, even when they got old enough to read
themselves. Everybody (in our family, anyway) loves
being read to. _Huck Finn_ is a challenging read-aloud,
b/c of the dialects and accents. And of course, the
content is challenging. Which is one of the things
that makes it so good.
Kelly
> Will you not read/introduce Huckleberry Finn,Robin~
> or Gone With the Wind, or other wonderful books
> because what is in them is not politically correct
> for the current time?
I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a question
for the list or for me. I will answer for me.
The question was: Do these books offer learning
opportunities that can't be found elsewhere? My
answer is no. They don't.
> Before making a decision, do a little reading aboutI have always loved books and myths and storytelling.
> these books, this storyline, what was put in and what
> was left out...I had a lot of admiration for the author
> and editor, and the stories themselves, after I learned
> more about them.
I love everything from _A Hole is to Dig_ (so simple,
yet so profound!) and _A Tree is Nice_ and Shel Silverstein
right on through Joseph Campbell and "The Power of Myth."
Before my first child was born, I was a children's
librarian and a professional storyteller.
I have been a fan of the _Little House_ books since
I was a child. I read them again, and studied them in
depth, when I was obtaining my Master's degree in Library
Science. So, I HAVE done "a little reading about these books."
I like to compare the writing of the books written by
Rose Wilder, Laura's daughter, with the books written by
Laura herself, namely, _The First Four Years_ and Laura's travelogue. Yes, Laura's name appears as author on all the
books, but if you compare the writing of _The First Four Years_
and Laura's travelogue against the rest of the series, it
becomes clear that they were not written by the same person.
Read anything Rose wrote under her own name and it becomes even
more obvious that Rose wrote the beloved series. Laura may
have dictated, or Rose was inspired by Laura's childhood
recollections....
We really like these books. I have read them to all
of my children. My kids enjoyed them, and then Netflixing
the TV series, and comparing/contrasting the stories, the
characters, the worldview of the books, versus the TV show.
That said, if my adoptive children, who really have
experienced physical abuse, objected to the content
and wanted me to stop reading them aloud, I would
respect that. I would stop. Even though I, personally,
like the books.
My son, Caleb, decided to learn the fiddle tunes Pa
plays throughout the series. As I mentioned in an
earlier post, we churned butter and visited maple
farms to see the trees being tapped, and later, the
sap being boiled down into syrup, around the same
time we were reading the series. We've cooked
_Little House_ recipes and made _Little House_
crafts.
I am not a censor. But a mother asked if her
sensitive child, who happens to be of Native
American heritage, missed out by not reading
these books, if there were anything to be learnt
there that could be learned nowhere else, my
answer is no. I stand by that.
Yes, books, and TV, and movies, and life,
will present us with points of view and attitudes
we find offensive. And we will learn from looking
at and thinking about and discussing that which offends
us. But MUST the original poster's child read *these
particular books* in order to learn lessons that can be
learnt nowhere else?
I say no.
Yes, she will miss out on Rose Wilder's
lyrical prose, e.g., how she describes Laura
falling to sleep, under a prairie sky full of
stars, to the sounds of her Pa's fiddle.
Yes, I would put this series on a list of
books I recommend.
I still don't know what book(s) are absolute
must reads. That's a tough question: What
books MUST everybody read?
I admit I am responding with emotion. I
feel that I have been called a censor. But
I was a librarian who would have been willing
to go to jail rather than turn a patron's library
records over to the authorities. I am the furthest
thing from a censor that you can find.
It's funny that you mention _Huck Finn_. I am reading
that to the family right now. I didn't stop reading
to my kids, even when they got old enough to read
themselves. Everybody (in our family, anyway) loves
being read to. _Huck Finn_ is a challenging read-aloud,
b/c of the dialects and accents. And of course, the
content is challenging. Which is one of the things
that makes it so good.
Kelly
Ren Allen
~~I still don't know what book(s) are absolute
must reads. That's a tough question: What
books MUST everybody read?~~
None. I agree with you that there is no such thing as a book that everyone MUST read. There is nothing that everyone MUST learn. But then, I was raised by a librarian/storyteller.;)
I think it's hugely freeing to realize that there isn't any information in the world that absolutely everyone MUST learn about.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
must reads. That's a tough question: What
books MUST everybody read?~~
None. I agree with you that there is no such thing as a book that everyone MUST read. There is nothing that everyone MUST learn. But then, I was raised by a librarian/storyteller.;)
I think it's hugely freeing to realize that there isn't any information in the world that absolutely everyone MUST learn about.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=
I still don't know what book(s) are absolute
must reads. That's a tough question: What
books MUST everybody read?-=-
There is nothing. Not one single book.
Not in school, not in a religion, not in a country, not in a family.
Or there shouldn't be.
People should read or listen to books they want to, but without a wad
of emotion or judgment.
Learning is not dependent on any one person's ideas or writings or the
choices of publishers or librarians or teachers or mothers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I still don't know what book(s) are absolute
must reads. That's a tough question: What
books MUST everybody read?-=-
There is nothing. Not one single book.
Not in school, not in a religion, not in a country, not in a family.
Or there shouldn't be.
People should read or listen to books they want to, but without a wad
of emotion or judgment.
Learning is not dependent on any one person's ideas or writings or the
choices of publishers or librarians or teachers or mothers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Absolutely Ren. I agree 100 %
Being borned and raised in Brazil the books that most children read are not the same as here.
There are some books that transcend language like the classic fables and some world wide well known writters.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Being borned and raised in Brazil the books that most children read are not the same as here.
There are some books that transcend language like the classic fables and some world wide well known writters.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Absolutely Ren. I agree 100 %
Being born and raised in Brazil the books that most children read are not the same as here.
There are some books that transcend language like the classic fables and some world wide well known writers.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Being born and raised in Brazil the books that most children read are not the same as here.
There are some books that transcend language like the classic fables and some world wide well known writers.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=While there is nothing that is really a must read for everyone, I
will argue absolutely for introducing these books to children.-=-
"Introducing" is stronger than "making available" or "recommending,"
and unless it creates a better unschooling environment, this list is
the wrong place to "argue absolutely."
-=-There are things that we shake our heads at today, but so what?-=-
Some of them were harmful then and can still be harmful now is what.
A book that shows girls as silly and helpless might be interesting as
contrast IF a girl is interested in that historical perspective, but
three of them without contrast is not as good an idea. Six held up as
good examples is altogether creepy.
When an unschooling family wants to relive Little House on the Prairie
as though it were a documentary rather than a fictionalIZED version of
whatever might actually have happened (any time there's dialog it
turns from history to historical fiction), that is creepy too.
It's not the 19th century. It's not even the 20th century. To raise
a child to pine for the past and despise the moment isn't illegal, but
it doesn't help people understand natural learning.
-=-
Before making a decision, do a little reading about these books, this
storyline, what was put in and what was left out...I had a lot of
admiration for the author and editor, and the stories themselves,
after I learned more about them.-=-
There's not "a decision" once and for all to be made, though. It was
an invitation for ideas and advice. Let's not let the list be about
winning and losing and emotional arguments, if possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
will argue absolutely for introducing these books to children.-=-
"Introducing" is stronger than "making available" or "recommending,"
and unless it creates a better unschooling environment, this list is
the wrong place to "argue absolutely."
-=-There are things that we shake our heads at today, but so what?-=-
Some of them were harmful then and can still be harmful now is what.
A book that shows girls as silly and helpless might be interesting as
contrast IF a girl is interested in that historical perspective, but
three of them without contrast is not as good an idea. Six held up as
good examples is altogether creepy.
When an unschooling family wants to relive Little House on the Prairie
as though it were a documentary rather than a fictionalIZED version of
whatever might actually have happened (any time there's dialog it
turns from history to historical fiction), that is creepy too.
It's not the 19th century. It's not even the 20th century. To raise
a child to pine for the past and despise the moment isn't illegal, but
it doesn't help people understand natural learning.
-=-
Before making a decision, do a little reading about these books, this
storyline, what was put in and what was left out...I had a lot of
admiration for the author and editor, and the stories themselves,
after I learned more about them.-=-
There's not "a decision" once and for all to be made, though. It was
an invitation for ideas and advice. Let's not let the list be about
winning and losing and emotional arguments, if possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
> There are some books that transcend language like theGrimms' Fairy Tales? Disney absolutely ruined 'em...
> classic fables and some world wide well known writers.
as stories (IMHO). As artwork? A totally different story.
I imagine that it would be interesting
to see Disney's "Little Mermaid" before reading the
classical fairy tale. (We read the classic version, watched
the Disney vesion, and watched "Splash." Everybody liked
"Splash" best.) I have to imagine, as I did it
the other way 'round. Likewise, my kids saw "Star
Wars" in this order: Episode One, then Two, and etc.,
up through Six. I saw Episodes Four, Five, and Six,
then One, Two and Three. It creates a different experience.
I didn't know, until college, that Prince Charming
did quite a bit more than *kiss* the princess to
bring her out of her deathly slumber. It was a home run,
baby. Ozzy's "Paradise by the Dashboard Light."
Cinderella's stepsisters chopped off parts of their
feet, in deperation to fit into the glass slippers.
That doesn't show up in Disney.
I leave it to parents, who are highly attuned to their
children, to know if/when to suggest they read these...
Bottom line: if you love literature, and you love
your kids, there's a chance they'll at least *like*
literature, too. And if they don't, as my non-native
English speakers don't, do what I do: join them on
their MMORPGs (or whatever interests them). Stories are
everywhere. I let THEM introduce ME to the mythology and
the lore asssociated therewith, and the turnabout in roles
benefits all of us.
I can certainly see feeling affonted by _Little House_.
My adoptive daugher is absolutey gorgeous, if I do say so
myself. But her hair and eyes are black, and, sadly, she
wishes for blonde hair and blue eyes, like my biological daughter has. Shades of Mary and Laura? Definitely. It is hard for
Samantha to see that Amelia and I look so alike, when she looks
completely different. That just plain HURTS. It becomes a jumping off point for conversations. Like the idea that kids should sit quietly in chairs, all day on Sunday.
Ha! That won't ever happen around here. But it did happen, in
Laura's life.
So what? What do my kids think about it? That's what I care
about. We go out in the sun for the few weeks it shines up here,
and let our skin go brown, and rejoice in that. We aren't tied
down by bonnets. We go barefoot, a stolen luxury for Laura.
Beautiful prose, _Little House_ is, and full of great conversation starters, but not a must read.
Okay... how about this: Federal and state consistutions
(or whatever applies where you live)? Must reads?
I still say no. I don't know what qualities make a good
citizen, but forcing "civics" classes on kids won't do,
hasn't done it.
Kelly
kelly_sturman
> Learning is not dependent on any one person's ideas or writings orNot dependent on, but definitely influenced by. I have five
> the choices of publishers or librarians or teachers or mothers.
>
> Sandra
musical children. If I had only bio kids, you might say they
inherited musical talent from their parents. But 3/5 of them
are adoptive children, and still they all show strong interests
in playing intstruments and jamming together as a family, at home
and on local stages. Because it is fun. Because we (Mike and I,
the parents, who met in high school band) set that role model:
playing music with people you care about is just plain fun.
Everything we do, our kids watch, and emulate, or reject.
(But mostly emulate.)
And so they learn, because of us or in spite of us.
Let is be because of us, because we set an example so
beautiful that they want to follow it. Let me not be
an example for my children of what not to do.
Altruism: there's another example. I have incredibly
giving children. I was thinking about this during the
conversation about including conventionally parented
neighborhood children in family activities, about the
need to balance helping those kids see better possibilities
against the need to protect our own children against those
kids' coarser aspects. I thought A LOT about that one, b/c
I brought hurt kids into our family, for keeps.
If I had come to unschooling first, we might be a very
different family. Smaller, and not muticultural. Life
would be easier in some ways, but we'd be poorer for it
in other ways. I would have been afraid that the adoptive
kids' hurts would overhwhelm the bio kids, and that we'd just
never be happy again. I would have been making fear-based
decisons. We all would have missed out on countless learning
opportunities. We all have so much to learn from one another.
Here's to making loving choices, even when it seems easier
to make a fear based choice!
Anyway, as it turns out, all of my kids are very generous,
and that is one of the qualities I like most about them.
When Grandma was diagnosed with cancer, Amelia cut off her long,
long curly blonde locks and donated them to Locks of Love.
Caleb decided that instead of a birthday present this year,
he would ask his friends to donate to a charity that is trying
to fight human trafficking. Yuyu volunteers at our local
hospice. Mark and Samantha...and the three other kids, for
that matter, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to plan and prepare and deliver
lunches to the Red Cross Friendship Center, to feed the hungry.
One day, delivering the lunches, a homeless man stopped me, and
touching my shoulder lightly, said, "You are a good mom." And I
didn't know quite what to say, so I just said, "I have kind
children."
They regularly "weed" through their toy collections,
to donate toys to kids who have less. Perhaps my greatest
legacy is that I raised kids who give a damn about others,
and will act on those beliefs. Meanwhile, Mike, their dad,
is right now being tested as a possible marrow donor for some
very sick individual. I hope he is a match, and will be able
to donate marrow. His mother is dying; how cathartic could it
be to save another's life?
The people I love can be so incredibly selfless. I think it
takes being appreciated for oneself to grow to be selfless...
Having a lot of stuff *AND* realizing that just having it doesn't bring happiness also helps move one towards altruism.
Enough! Bedtime! Maybe not for the kids, but *I'm* sleepy.
Kelly Sturman
Sandra Dodd
-=- I would have been afraid that the adoptive
kids' hurts would overhwhelm the bio kids, and that we'd just
never be happy again. I would have been making fear-based
decisons. -=-
Irrational or arbitrary fear is bad, I guess, but sensible decisions
involve deciding whether one thing is less scary or less harmful than
another thing, and so to say "fear-based decisions" are always bad
doesn't seem good or right. It's almost like a "double-dog dare" to
challenge people to prove they aren't afraid by rejecting "fear-based
decisions."
If your husband were to decide that he feared a hospital staph
infection if he gave marrow, or feared being unavailable to his dying
mother because of it, it seems the positive spin is that he made a
thoughtful decision and selflessly put his mom first.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kids' hurts would overhwhelm the bio kids, and that we'd just
never be happy again. I would have been making fear-based
decisons. -=-
Irrational or arbitrary fear is bad, I guess, but sensible decisions
involve deciding whether one thing is less scary or less harmful than
another thing, and so to say "fear-based decisions" are always bad
doesn't seem good or right. It's almost like a "double-dog dare" to
challenge people to prove they aren't afraid by rejecting "fear-based
decisions."
If your husband were to decide that he feared a hospital staph
infection if he gave marrow, or feared being unavailable to his dying
mother because of it, it seems the positive spin is that he made a
thoughtful decision and selflessly put his mom first.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Last week Supriya and I were playing "Who's smarter than a fifth grader?" Someone gave it to her as a birthday present couple years ago. I kept failing all the English questions. I did not know who Carl Sandberg was (now I do), and I haven't read "Wind in the Willows". I have now put it on my list of books to read sometime soon.
I do want to read some of these old books because it helps to get cultural references, like jokes in movies. I also want to watch the original Star Trek episodes for the same reason.
Manisha
>One idea that has helped me in my unschooling journey is the realization that I haven't learnt most of the things that school children in this country learn (because I grew up in India) and I still get along just fine. I am "successful" by most conventional measures.
> -=
> I still don't know what book(s) are absolute
> must reads. That's a tough question: What
> books MUST everybody read?-=-
>
> There is nothing. Not one single book.
> Not in school, not in a religion, not in a country, not in a family.
> Or there shouldn't be.
>
Last week Supriya and I were playing "Who's smarter than a fifth grader?" Someone gave it to her as a birthday present couple years ago. I kept failing all the English questions. I did not know who Carl Sandberg was (now I do), and I haven't read "Wind in the Willows". I have now put it on my list of books to read sometime soon.
I do want to read some of these old books because it helps to get cultural references, like jokes in movies. I also want to watch the original Star Trek episodes for the same reason.
Manisha
Jenny C
> It's not the 19th century. It's not even the 20th century. To raiseMy sister does that to an extent. Her kids enjoy many of the old
> a child to pine for the past and despise the moment isn't illegal, but
> it doesn't help people understand natural learning.
>
fashioned kinds of things. It's a bit elitist to shun the modern world
in exclusion to some fictionalized idea of the past, that is seen as
somehow better.
There are good things that came from times past. Heirloom veggies are
one of them. Gardening practices without herbicides and pesticides are
another.
We have the Little House cookbook. Chamille and I read the books up
until The Long "boring" Winter. She couldn't get into that one at all,
and I totally understand why. We watched a lot of the TV series because
we used to visit her great grandparents, and I would sew and crochet
with great grandma, and the girls would watch those videos with great
grandpa.
The things that Chamille liked about the books were the snapshot moments
of what it was like "back then". She had issues with the way Ma was
afraid of the indians. We talked a lot about that. She remembers
really strongly, when Laura "lost" her little sister in the fields and
how scary that was for Laura, and how hard it must've been for her to be
in charge of her little sister in that manner. Chamille could relate to
that because she is so much older than her sister, and it's possible
that if we had been around during that time, she would've been in charge
of her sister more, so that I could do all the manual labor. Another
huge part that she remembers and really disliked was the treatment of
the family pet. She couldn't understand why the dog couldn't get a ride
in the wagon. Laura couldn't understand why Pa treated the dog in that
manner either, but accepted it because she had no choice. Chamille
hated Pa for that!
When I was a kid, our family did a number of cross country road trips.
One of them was to visit as many of the Laura Ingalls heritage centers
as possible. I loved it enormously. I have really strong memories of
that experience and how it tied to the books. I can even remember the
way some of those old houses and buildings smell. I have a little metal
pencil sharpener that is in the shape of a well, from that trip. It was
one of the few items I purchased as a souvenir from that trip. Margaux
broke it. I still have the little bucket, but the chain that held the
bucket so that you could crank the handle, is missing. I've never used
it as a pencil sharpener.
Sandra Dodd
-=-There are good things that came from times past. Heirloom veggies are
one of them.-=-
Those are cool NOW, but at the time, they were just the seeds the
people could get or had saved. In the past they weren't thrilled and
excited by some 150 year old strain of tomatoes (not for its
historicity, anyway).
-=- I have really strong memories of
that experience and how it tied to the books. I can even remember the
way some of those old houses and buildings smell. I have a little metal
pencil sharpener that is in the shape of a well, from that trip-=-
I love these kinds of memories!
I have a friend whose parents kept him in the idealized early 20th
century or late 19th, pretty much. It came to mind because Marty
asked his girlfriend to watch The Pirates of Penzance with him,
because he likes it and she like pirates. She didn't like it nearly
enough for me to want Marty to marry her. She didn't like it at all,
as far as I could tell. But why SHOULD someone in 2009 like jokes
that have to be explained, from the 1880s? If they do they do. But
this family I was thinking about was big into Gilbert and Sullivan,
and that's what their kids knew and thought was funny. They knew zip
about Monty Python or Robin Williams or George Carlin. He never ever
owned a pair of jeans, even thought he was a boyscout. He never ever
owned a t-shirt until he was in his 20's; wore button-up shirts only.
So in a way, he didn't live in the U.S. in the 1950's or 1960's or
70's. When he has grandchildren and they ask about those decades,
he'll have very little of interest to say. I kinda teased him about
it one day and said it would be as if I time-travelled to ancient Rome
and met someone who had never been to the colliseum, never been to a
feast, never seen a centurion, never been to a parade... BOring.
Eye-witness to nothing much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
one of them.-=-
Those are cool NOW, but at the time, they were just the seeds the
people could get or had saved. In the past they weren't thrilled and
excited by some 150 year old strain of tomatoes (not for its
historicity, anyway).
-=- I have really strong memories of
that experience and how it tied to the books. I can even remember the
way some of those old houses and buildings smell. I have a little metal
pencil sharpener that is in the shape of a well, from that trip-=-
I love these kinds of memories!
I have a friend whose parents kept him in the idealized early 20th
century or late 19th, pretty much. It came to mind because Marty
asked his girlfriend to watch The Pirates of Penzance with him,
because he likes it and she like pirates. She didn't like it nearly
enough for me to want Marty to marry her. She didn't like it at all,
as far as I could tell. But why SHOULD someone in 2009 like jokes
that have to be explained, from the 1880s? If they do they do. But
this family I was thinking about was big into Gilbert and Sullivan,
and that's what their kids knew and thought was funny. They knew zip
about Monty Python or Robin Williams or George Carlin. He never ever
owned a pair of jeans, even thought he was a boyscout. He never ever
owned a t-shirt until he was in his 20's; wore button-up shirts only.
So in a way, he didn't live in the U.S. in the 1950's or 1960's or
70's. When he has grandchildren and they ask about those decades,
he'll have very little of interest to say. I kinda teased him about
it one day and said it would be as if I time-travelled to ancient Rome
and met someone who had never been to the colliseum, never been to a
feast, never seen a centurion, never been to a parade... BOring.
Eye-witness to nothing much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
> so to say "fear-based decisions" are always badYes! Of course, you are right. Fear is a useful
> doesn't seem good or right.
tool... now I'm thinking of _Protecting the Gift_.
So, there is another thing I like about the list:
clear use of language and clarity of thought.
I appreciate when people point out to me
that my thinking (and my expressions)
are muddied. That helps me grow, to
think more clearly and to express those
thoughts more clearly.
I didn't mean to sound/be obnoxious,
but I did/was. If nobody pointed it out,
how could I ever hope to do/be better
in future?
Kelly
[email protected]
There are good things that came from times past. Heirloom veggies are
one of them. Gardening practices without herbicides and pesticides are
another.
I like some of the heirloom veggies for novelty. Some of them have better flavor than the new varieties but some don't . Some of the new varieties are more disease resistant. I value that when I have some disease running through my tomatoes and other vegetables. Last year my peppers did great. This year they are being hit by some fungal disease and I probably won't get any.? I won't treat with anything but if I didn't have stores to rely on and my food source was being depleted then I would want something to stop that. I found squash vine beetle on my pumpkins, squash etc. I try to find the eggs and get rid of them, but don't spray. I would be all for a variety that stopped them. I'm pretty sure that some of?my plants will be wilting soon from the squash vine borers and that I won't get my pumpkins and maybe only?a few squash. My peach tree gets hits by some form of rust...I think. I know my old varieties of crabapples lose there leaves every year from cedar-apple rust. My new varieties have been resistance and maintain their leaves.
I do love non-heirloom oranges and watermelons with no seeds.
I don't think I could produce enough food for my family?if I only used heirloom varieties and no herbicides or pesticides. I would like to think I could but looking at my vegetable devastation every year by not doing this it makes me feel insecure about being able to provide all the food I would need.
Referring back to Laura Ingall's books. There is one where the locus walk through eating everything in their path. That was?an amazing story to me. Locus are still a big problem in Africa. Having them come through can be a matter of life a death.
That being said I also just heard a NyTimes writer talking about the estrogen type compounds affect on the amphibian population but also the affect on human males....I think the quote was a 7% affect that they are seeing in human male babies not have normal descending of the testicles because of this. The estrogen type compounds apparently come from many sources...plasticizers but also herbicides and/or pesticides. Still look for the article that the reporter was referring to.
Another note on Little House on the Prairie.? I was an exchange student to Germany in 1983. I watched Little House on the Prairie everyday in German. I had seen it in the US, so I knew many of the stories already.
Meg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
one of them. Gardening practices without herbicides and pesticides are
another.
I like some of the heirloom veggies for novelty. Some of them have better flavor than the new varieties but some don't . Some of the new varieties are more disease resistant. I value that when I have some disease running through my tomatoes and other vegetables. Last year my peppers did great. This year they are being hit by some fungal disease and I probably won't get any.? I won't treat with anything but if I didn't have stores to rely on and my food source was being depleted then I would want something to stop that. I found squash vine beetle on my pumpkins, squash etc. I try to find the eggs and get rid of them, but don't spray. I would be all for a variety that stopped them. I'm pretty sure that some of?my plants will be wilting soon from the squash vine borers and that I won't get my pumpkins and maybe only?a few squash. My peach tree gets hits by some form of rust...I think. I know my old varieties of crabapples lose there leaves every year from cedar-apple rust. My new varieties have been resistance and maintain their leaves.
I do love non-heirloom oranges and watermelons with no seeds.
I don't think I could produce enough food for my family?if I only used heirloom varieties and no herbicides or pesticides. I would like to think I could but looking at my vegetable devastation every year by not doing this it makes me feel insecure about being able to provide all the food I would need.
Referring back to Laura Ingall's books. There is one where the locus walk through eating everything in their path. That was?an amazing story to me. Locus are still a big problem in Africa. Having them come through can be a matter of life a death.
That being said I also just heard a NyTimes writer talking about the estrogen type compounds affect on the amphibian population but also the affect on human males....I think the quote was a 7% affect that they are seeing in human male babies not have normal descending of the testicles because of this. The estrogen type compounds apparently come from many sources...plasticizers but also herbicides and/or pesticides. Still look for the article that the reporter was referring to.
Another note on Little House on the Prairie.? I was an exchange student to Germany in 1983. I watched Little House on the Prairie everyday in German. I had seen it in the US, so I knew many of the stories already.
Meg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JoyErin
-= If nobody pointed it out, how could I ever hope to do/be better in
future? =-
I know for me I often realize within a day or two what I did wrong but not
always and someone pointing it out certainly is a lot quicker and more
guaranteed. <g>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2212 - Release Date: 07/02/09
05:54:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
future? =-
I know for me I often realize within a day or two what I did wrong but not
always and someone pointing it out certainly is a lot quicker and more
guaranteed. <g>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2212 - Release Date: 07/02/09
05:54:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]