[email protected]

>>But I do talk to both of my children about how much most of our society values eye contact. I think it would be a disservice not to make them aware.
>>>

I don't feel that it's a disservice - that argument is made over and over again for a variety of things people claim MUST be shared with our children. (There was recently a rather rousing discussion of just such a thing - in that case, giving personal information over the internet - on the UWWG list.) Like anything else, it might become useful and pertinent information at some point for some kids.

My oldest at 16 is rather shy and while he has several very good friends he finds it difficult to navigate interactions with people he doesn't know well. We've talked about it occasionally, when he's especially bothered that an encounter felt awkward or when I noticed something I thought would be helpful to share. Most recently I was able to share my insight that while he feels nervous and shy, his body language sometimes, instead, suggests he's disinterested in the person. Or rude. That's not how he wants to be seen, so we talked about it. I was able to share my observations and suggestions in a way that he didn't find threatening, because I've not pressured him to change.

But if I'd been pressuring him for years and years to make eye contact with every person he encounters, I'm certain it would've done very little in the way of making him more comfortable yet far more in the way of creating resentment toward me for pushing him out of his comfort zone in a way that isn't helpful and partnering.

When my son went to his first job interview, we talked about what the employer might be looking for. He got the job. We didn't have to spend years practicing making eye contact or shaking hands or dressing appropriately for an interview or ending his interview with "thank you for considering me." The information was relevant and desired and he nailed it on the first try. :)

When we worry about society's expectations, about how our children will be seen by others, we place more importance on the feelings of others and less on the needs of our child. Most of the time my son is quite satisfied to have his few close friends and doesn't feel the need to belong in every circle of teens he meets. I admit it's been a process for me to see that as perfectly ok, since as a teen (and, well, an adult) I was the opposite and sought ways to jump into every swirl. I try to help my son be happy the way he wants to be happy, not how I - or especially others - think he should.

Laura

*****
www.piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com
*****





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>Apparently, gazing into the eyes of another at the distance of a
>>nursing baby from its mother (about 18", roughly) has the potential to
>>release large amounts of oxytocin into the bloodstream,
>>creating/facilitating bonding between two people on an emotional
>>level. Thus, he explained, it's *extremely* important that if you're
>>going to engage in eye contact at that general range, you need to make
>>sure your intent is loving and connecting and no other thing, because
>>it "screws with the hormonal soup" otherwise, and that's part of why
>>eye contact with the intent to manipulate or intimidate is so
>>incredibly upsetting. On a biochemical level, it's wrong.


I was a co-organizer for a spirituality retreat for 330 women once. It was an amazing experience overall, but during one of the closing ceremonies, the leader asked us to turn to the person sitting next to us and gaze directly into her eyes while we sang a song. I found it almost unbearable, I was so uncomfortable. In fact, I couldn't do it. I fidgeted and twitched and shifted in my seat, and probably lost eye contact more than I maintained it. Thoughts like "I wonder if she's as uncomfortable as I am" and "I bet she wishes she had a different partner" raced through my head, completely wiping away any notice of the song and its lyrics or the leader's intended meaning of the exercise. When it was finished, I was sooo relieved, only to hear the leader say, "Now turn the person on your other side" and we were to do it all over again. The only reason I didn't get up and leave is because I didn't want my partner to feel badly. I'm pretty sure it "screwed with my hormonal soup" - because I remember very physical reactions as well.

Laura

*****
www.piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com
*****







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=->>But I do talk to both of my children about how much most of our
society values eye contact. I think it would be a disservice not to
make them aware.>>>

-=-I don't feel that it's a disservice - that argument is made over
and over again for a variety of things people claim MUST be shared
with our children-=-

Seriously you don't think parents should tell their children how much
most of our society values eye contact?

At no point do you intend to tell your children that total lack of eye
contact is considered a bad thing?

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

I'm sorry--I sent too soon before.

-=-But if I'd been pressuring him for years and years to make eye
contact with every person he encounters, I'm certain it would've done
very little in the way of making him more comfortable yet far more in
the way of creating resentment toward me for pushing him out of his
comfort zone in a way that isn't helpful and partnering. -=-

No one recommended pressuring anyone to make eye contact with every
person he encounters. No one recommended any all or nothing. But
given these two made-up extremes, I would go with the second:

"You don't ever need to make eye contact with anyone. If they don't
know some people are uncomfortable with it, that's THEIR problem, not
yours."
and
"Make eye contact every time you shake hands or meet someone."

Neither is required, and I hope the former was a total fabrication of
my own imagination.

-=-When we worry about society's expectations, about how our children
will be seen by others, we place more importance on the feelings of
others and less on the needs of our child.-=-

You have a "more" in the middle of that. Is it dependent on "worry"?

How about "When we have an awareness about society's expectations and
a concern about how our children will be seen by others..."?

My children need to know society's expectations, and how they might be
seen by others. That IS one of the needs of my children.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=, the leader asked us to turn to the person sitting next to us and
gaze directly into her eyes while we sang a song. I found it almost
unbearable, I was so uncomfortable. In fact, I couldn't do it. I
fidgeted and twitched and shifted in my seat, and probably lost eye
contact more than I maintained it. Thoughts like "I wonder if she's as
uncomfortable as I am" and "I bet she wishes she had a different
partner" raced through my head, completely wiping away any notice of
the song and its lyrics or the leader's intended meaning of the
exercise. When it was finished, I was sooo relieved, only to hear the
leader say, "Now turn the person on your other side" and we were to do
it all over again. The only reason I didn't get up and leave is
because I didn't want my partner to feel badly. I'm pretty sure it
"screwed with my hormonal soup" - because I remember very physical
reactions as well. -=-

Did you talk to the facilitator later about what she was after, and
how uncomfortable you were? Maybe she hadn't considered how
uncomfortable it would be for some people. It sounds like a staring
down contest of sorts, and I think if I were in that situation I
wouldn't look at the pupils of the eyes, but at the eyelashes or the
tear ducts or the flecks of color in the iris, maybe.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laura Flynn Endres

<<At no point do you intend to tell your children that total lack of eye
<<contact is considered a bad thing?

I've honestly never thought about it as something I needed to convey. Maybe it's because my kids don't have a total lack of eye contact all the time, but occasionally in certain situations where they're nervous or uncomfortable or don't know what to say. I am rethinking that because of this discussion, though.

Or sometimes my younger son, who isn't shy in new situations, doesn't look up or greet someone because he's engrossed in what he's doing. We've talked about that. Sometimes my husband takes the kids to meet clients (he has many restaurants as clients and the kids love to eat out) and he tells them it's important to him that they say hello and smile and answer if the client asks them questions.


<<How about "When we have an awareness about society's expectations and
<<a concern about how our children will be seen by others..."?
<<My children need to know society's expectations, and how they might be
<<seen by others. That IS one of the needs of my children.
<<


I see what you're saying.

My point was that rather than viewing it as something I must tell my children - what every parent must tell all children - I see it as something that we address if and when it comes up. I gave the example of talking with my son about things that would make his interview go smoother, things the employer is likely to be looking for. And honestly, it might've been an oversight on my part, but I don't think I mentioned eye contact!

I'm going to talk to my son about this and see if it's information that he hadn't considered and would've found valuable and helpful had I shared it. (Not being facetious even though that sentence could be read as such.) He already knows there are certain behaviors that are expected and accepted by society. I've done what I could, and what he's wanted, to help him. Sometimes by sharing information - and that's where the eye contact information comes in, I see - and sometimes by helping him transition by going with him, being the first to speak, suggesting he bring a friend, or otherwise easing him into social situations.

Laura

*~*~*~*~*
www.piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com
*~*~*~*~*
"Children aren't coloring books.
You don't get to fill them with your
favorite colors." ~From The Kite Runner
*~*~*~*~*

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<> Seriously you don't think parents should tell their children how much
> most of our society values eye contact?

> At no point do you intend to tell your children that total lack of eye
> contact is considered a bad thing?>>>>

I'm not sure how this would come up in the course of real, ordinary
conversations with Jayn, who seems to have picked it up either from the
osmosis of modelling and observing, or just from having a natural ability -
is it Gardner's Interpersonal Intelligence?

With this thread I've been picturing her talking, especially to adults, and
I can see the fluid eye contact she makes, making contact but not staring,
looking at people when she greets them, looking and reacting when listening,
looking in to my eyes when she says "I love you".

What I mean is, there hasn't been a problem situation where the necessity to
make any kind of suggestion about eye contact has been needed. If I started
giving this kind of information pro-actively and unasked to Jayn *her*
likely reactions would be annoyance with me, or self-conciousness that would
likely have the opposite effect from the desired one. In our case it would
be "fixing what isn't broken".

I guess some kids need more coaching than others. If we were travelling to a
foreign country with a very different culture, more research/information
would be in order just as we would research things like the appropriate
clothing or level of modesty or table manners that are considered
respectful.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Robyn L. Coburn

> What I mean is, there hasn't been a problem situation where the necessity
> to
> make any kind of suggestion about eye contact has been needed. >>>

Oh this was just lousy grammar..

..there hasn't been a problem situation where the necessity of make any kind
of suggestion about eye contact has occurred...

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Pam Sorooshian

Most of us don't need to "tell" our kids to make some eye contact, do
we? They figure it out. But, for kids who avoid eye contact, it is
important information for them to know that other people are aware of it
and that it affects them.

There is such a thing as too much eye contact, though. Contra dancers
stare into each others' eyes and it makes some newbies very uncomfortable.

-pam

On 6/22/2009 11:20 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> Seriously you don't think parents should tell their children how much
> most of our society values eye contact?
> =
> contact is considered a bad thing?
>

Jenny C

> I'm not sure how this would come up in the course of real, ordinary
> conversations with Jayn, who seems to have picked it up either from
the
> osmosis of modelling and observing, or just from having a natural
ability -
> is it Gardner's Interpersonal Intelligence?
>
> With this thread I've been picturing her talking, especially to
adults, and
> I can see the fluid eye contact she makes, making contact but not
staring,
> looking at people when she greets them, looking and reacting when
listening,
> looking in to my eyes when she says "I love you".


The other day Chamille and I were talking about eye contact. She had
been visiting and talking with an adult who she doesn't exactly like a
lot. I had asked her if she actually talked and made eye contact with
this person. I knew that it was a real possibility that she hadn't
because she doesn't really have much to say to this person. She told me
that she gave him just the right amount of eye contact to not make him
uncomfortable and to let him know that she was there and part of the
conversation. She said that she had toyed with the idea of really
looking at him, but decided against it because she thought he wouldn't
like it very much. She said that some adults get very uncomfortable
with too much eye contact from kids and teenagers.

It was a fun conversation that I had with Chamille. She's very aware of
eye contact and the power it has. She uses it for power if she needs
to, but mostly she gives just the right amount of eye contact based on
who and what she's talking to and about. She gave a lot of detailed
examples of various times that she's used or hasn't used eye contact and
how the other person responded.

This is Chamille though, everything is about people! I was so struck
with that notion the other day, that I wrote it down on my drawing pad.
It was meant as a helpful reminder to myself that, the next time I
didn't get something that she was doing or saying, I could go back to
that thought as the point of reference.