A Newbie with a Big Problem
Tiffany
Hi all, this is my first post and sorry up front for the novella. I have
been observing for a couple months now. I am not going to classify myself as
a RU... just a mom who sees many benefits of adding unschooling philosophy
to our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting. It is the ideas as
it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
school age kids are in public school, their choice. My son (almost 9) did
come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and went back
to school.
This post is about him. It has been one of those days when I am so
discouraged I just want to roll up into a ball and stay like that for days.
I have three kids, 3, 5, and 8. My 8 year son is so challenging I am at my
wit's end.
He was pretty much raised in a very attached home. I breastfed, he co-slept
from the beginning, he was carried every waking moment or he would scream,
and he has been raised with very few arbitrary rules. I did have to work
outside the home until he was almost 4 though. :-( I was raised in a very
verbally and sometime physically abusive environment so I am not saying that
I have been the perfect peaceful parent. I have a temper. But from the
beginning I knew I wanted to raise my kids differently then I was and that
meant no barrage of stupid rules or smothering my kids with endless
expectations.
The problem is that my son is verbally and physically abusive to me and his
siblings. He treats virtually no one with respect even though that is not
the way he is treated. It is starting to rub off on my two other kids as
they learn to handle things the way my oldest does. badly!
Just a few for instance scenarios from today: My oldest was mad that his
three year old brother went into the room they are SUPPOSED to share and got
into his crafting supplies. Never mind the fact that the 3 year old gets
ousted from his own room I have suggested numerous times that if he does not
want his brother to go in there all he needs to do is shut the door, since
baby brother cannot open it. He almost never shuts the door though and in
fact almost never shuts the doors to the house which has resulted in his
brother running outside and into the street. So. his brother messed with his
stuff. He responded by running out of the room and punching his brother in
the back and saying "he deserved it!"
I talked to him about it and couldn't get him to see that he can't hit his
siblings. He insists that if they do this or that then he WILL hit them. He
tells me matter-o-factly that THIS is the way it is!
Today as we were leaving his grandmother's house for a visit he was mad that
a puzzle she bought had to stay at her home. So he threw it across the room
in a rage. I stood by the door and told him we would leave after he picked
up the puzzle pieces and put it away. He spent a few minutes throwing it
around some more and then realized I was serious and eventually picked it
up. He was so furious about having to pick up the mess he made that he
walked out the door smacking a Snapple bottle on the side of the house until
it broke and squirted tea all over him. My 5 year daughter laughed and so he
assaulted her and started hitting her saying that she laughed so she
"deserves this".
All the way he home he fought with his siblings, often deliberately doing
things to provoke them and then lying about it. A couple times he hit me in
the head while I was driving with something from the back seat. By the time
we got home I had it and sent him to his room.
He doesn't seem to know how to deal with anger and he could not handle being
made to clean up after his own tantrum so it turned into a 2 hour session of
torturing to get back at us.
He has zero friends because truthfully no one can stand him for long. He
ends up getting bullied at school because he has rather bizarre behavior,
clucking like chicken, shrill screams for no reason, clapping loudly in
people's faces, etc. I assume they are tics of some sort and have often felt
he has some high functioning autism characteristics.
We just moved into a new house and he made a new friend that lasted for all
of 3 days until the parents of the child ordered my son to go away and stay
away.
Yesterday the father came to my door banging loudly and when I opened it he
yelled at me to keep my "KID" off his property. Apparently he sits on his
bike in front of their property or in their driveway, probably hoping the
child will come out. When I told my son that the man came over, he assumed
it was a different neighbor from a completely different street! So he has
already got two families in our new neighborhood mad at us. And
unfortunately for my daughter she is also not allowed to play at the
neighbor's house because of my son, so he is ruining her friendships too.
This morning I caught him yelling at the paper boy to get off our property.
He does not seem to realize or care that this behavior is the reason why he
has no friends.
He is also not doing so well adjusting to a new economic situation. My
husband who was absent for most of his formative years cause he was a truck
driver is now home. We decided to do with less money so he could be home all
the time. This means that all the kids have to do with less. We don't live
in as a nice a house, we don't give them as many toys and gifts, we don't
vacation as much and we used to do a lot. But the finances as well as the
fact that my son doesn't respect or care for any of his possessions is
wearing thin on us. He has trashed 4 bikes and gone through 4-5 DVD players
in the past 2 years. I don't think a day goes by when we don't have at least
1 tantrum about having to say no to some request that involves us spending
quite a bit of money on him. new rollerblades to replace the ones he left
outside to get ruined, a visit to the water park, a trip to the batting
cages. He has expensive tastes and we cannot fulfill his requests. When we
do it is not good enough. I got season passes to the zoo and he will throw a
fit about not being able to ride the amusement park rides at the theme park
next door or throw a fit if I only stay 4 hours and he doesn't get to see
every single exhibit. I just feel like nothing we do for him is enough. He
is always unhappy and angry. saying life is unfair, we are unfair, and they
we are bad parents.
I also want to note that he has TONS of freedom. He has no bedtime, chores,
or even any rules beyond don't hurt anyone or their property. He spends most
of his days out on his bike riding around and playing. by himself. I only
ask that he not go too far away and make me have to mount a search party to
find him. and he usually abides that. In his room he has a 50 inch TV,
cable, two video game consoles, a Nintendo DS, and hundreds of DVDs. He has
no limits on any of it. time or content. So our struggles have nothing to do
with his rebelling against all our unfair rules because there really aren't
any. If anything he is rebelling against the only real limitations we have
which are in regards to people and property.
Anyway, his behavior is getting so stressful that it has me feeling like a
failure as a parent. I also feel I spend so much time trying to protect my
other kids from him and counteract the negative example he leaves for them.
My daughter is in constant reaction mode. just waiting for him to do
something to her or one of her belongings. I want to cry when I hear my 3
year old saying "stop. your hurting me!"
Don't know what to do anymore. when I look at my two younger kids I would
say that attachment parenting, peaceful & respectful parenting, and
unschooling are doing wondrous things. I cannot say the same when I look at
my oldest.. I just wonder what the heck I am doing wrong.
As I write this he just came up to me screaming and demanding to know why I
was in his room messing with his TV and turning the channel. I told him that
I have not been in his room and he screams "LIAR!" at me and runs out of the
house.. Sigh. This is the norm with him.
I am really looking for some advice here. don't be afraid to hurt my
feelings if I am screwing it all up. I need to find peace for my son for all
our sakes.
Tijja
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
been observing for a couple months now. I am not going to classify myself as
a RU... just a mom who sees many benefits of adding unschooling philosophy
to our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting. It is the ideas as
it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
school age kids are in public school, their choice. My son (almost 9) did
come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and went back
to school.
This post is about him. It has been one of those days when I am so
discouraged I just want to roll up into a ball and stay like that for days.
I have three kids, 3, 5, and 8. My 8 year son is so challenging I am at my
wit's end.
He was pretty much raised in a very attached home. I breastfed, he co-slept
from the beginning, he was carried every waking moment or he would scream,
and he has been raised with very few arbitrary rules. I did have to work
outside the home until he was almost 4 though. :-( I was raised in a very
verbally and sometime physically abusive environment so I am not saying that
I have been the perfect peaceful parent. I have a temper. But from the
beginning I knew I wanted to raise my kids differently then I was and that
meant no barrage of stupid rules or smothering my kids with endless
expectations.
The problem is that my son is verbally and physically abusive to me and his
siblings. He treats virtually no one with respect even though that is not
the way he is treated. It is starting to rub off on my two other kids as
they learn to handle things the way my oldest does. badly!
Just a few for instance scenarios from today: My oldest was mad that his
three year old brother went into the room they are SUPPOSED to share and got
into his crafting supplies. Never mind the fact that the 3 year old gets
ousted from his own room I have suggested numerous times that if he does not
want his brother to go in there all he needs to do is shut the door, since
baby brother cannot open it. He almost never shuts the door though and in
fact almost never shuts the doors to the house which has resulted in his
brother running outside and into the street. So. his brother messed with his
stuff. He responded by running out of the room and punching his brother in
the back and saying "he deserved it!"
I talked to him about it and couldn't get him to see that he can't hit his
siblings. He insists that if they do this or that then he WILL hit them. He
tells me matter-o-factly that THIS is the way it is!
Today as we were leaving his grandmother's house for a visit he was mad that
a puzzle she bought had to stay at her home. So he threw it across the room
in a rage. I stood by the door and told him we would leave after he picked
up the puzzle pieces and put it away. He spent a few minutes throwing it
around some more and then realized I was serious and eventually picked it
up. He was so furious about having to pick up the mess he made that he
walked out the door smacking a Snapple bottle on the side of the house until
it broke and squirted tea all over him. My 5 year daughter laughed and so he
assaulted her and started hitting her saying that she laughed so she
"deserves this".
All the way he home he fought with his siblings, often deliberately doing
things to provoke them and then lying about it. A couple times he hit me in
the head while I was driving with something from the back seat. By the time
we got home I had it and sent him to his room.
He doesn't seem to know how to deal with anger and he could not handle being
made to clean up after his own tantrum so it turned into a 2 hour session of
torturing to get back at us.
He has zero friends because truthfully no one can stand him for long. He
ends up getting bullied at school because he has rather bizarre behavior,
clucking like chicken, shrill screams for no reason, clapping loudly in
people's faces, etc. I assume they are tics of some sort and have often felt
he has some high functioning autism characteristics.
We just moved into a new house and he made a new friend that lasted for all
of 3 days until the parents of the child ordered my son to go away and stay
away.
Yesterday the father came to my door banging loudly and when I opened it he
yelled at me to keep my "KID" off his property. Apparently he sits on his
bike in front of their property or in their driveway, probably hoping the
child will come out. When I told my son that the man came over, he assumed
it was a different neighbor from a completely different street! So he has
already got two families in our new neighborhood mad at us. And
unfortunately for my daughter she is also not allowed to play at the
neighbor's house because of my son, so he is ruining her friendships too.
This morning I caught him yelling at the paper boy to get off our property.
He does not seem to realize or care that this behavior is the reason why he
has no friends.
He is also not doing so well adjusting to a new economic situation. My
husband who was absent for most of his formative years cause he was a truck
driver is now home. We decided to do with less money so he could be home all
the time. This means that all the kids have to do with less. We don't live
in as a nice a house, we don't give them as many toys and gifts, we don't
vacation as much and we used to do a lot. But the finances as well as the
fact that my son doesn't respect or care for any of his possessions is
wearing thin on us. He has trashed 4 bikes and gone through 4-5 DVD players
in the past 2 years. I don't think a day goes by when we don't have at least
1 tantrum about having to say no to some request that involves us spending
quite a bit of money on him. new rollerblades to replace the ones he left
outside to get ruined, a visit to the water park, a trip to the batting
cages. He has expensive tastes and we cannot fulfill his requests. When we
do it is not good enough. I got season passes to the zoo and he will throw a
fit about not being able to ride the amusement park rides at the theme park
next door or throw a fit if I only stay 4 hours and he doesn't get to see
every single exhibit. I just feel like nothing we do for him is enough. He
is always unhappy and angry. saying life is unfair, we are unfair, and they
we are bad parents.
I also want to note that he has TONS of freedom. He has no bedtime, chores,
or even any rules beyond don't hurt anyone or their property. He spends most
of his days out on his bike riding around and playing. by himself. I only
ask that he not go too far away and make me have to mount a search party to
find him. and he usually abides that. In his room he has a 50 inch TV,
cable, two video game consoles, a Nintendo DS, and hundreds of DVDs. He has
no limits on any of it. time or content. So our struggles have nothing to do
with his rebelling against all our unfair rules because there really aren't
any. If anything he is rebelling against the only real limitations we have
which are in regards to people and property.
Anyway, his behavior is getting so stressful that it has me feeling like a
failure as a parent. I also feel I spend so much time trying to protect my
other kids from him and counteract the negative example he leaves for them.
My daughter is in constant reaction mode. just waiting for him to do
something to her or one of her belongings. I want to cry when I hear my 3
year old saying "stop. your hurting me!"
Don't know what to do anymore. when I look at my two younger kids I would
say that attachment parenting, peaceful & respectful parenting, and
unschooling are doing wondrous things. I cannot say the same when I look at
my oldest.. I just wonder what the heck I am doing wrong.
As I write this he just came up to me screaming and demanding to know why I
was in his room messing with his TV and turning the channel. I told him that
I have not been in his room and he screams "LIAR!" at me and runs out of the
house.. Sigh. This is the norm with him.
I am really looking for some advice here. don't be afraid to hurt my
feelings if I am screwing it all up. I need to find peace for my son for all
our sakes.
Tijja
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
When he was home, what did he do? Did
you do stuff with him, or was he just sort
of at loose ends? I wonder why he
felt so bored at home that he prefered
going (returing?) to school?
I have children who prefers negative
attention to no attention. If I am not
giving a particular child enough
attention--and it can be challenging, as I have
five pretty close in age to one another--, then
there are going to be tantrums and hitting and breaking
things.
Then I know the problem is I am not paying
enough attention to each child individually.
Everybody in the family wants one-on-one time
with mom, and with dad, too. Doing things
all together is great, but we need to have individual,
distinct relationships and private time with one
another, too.
I may very well be misreading the situation, but could
your child be crying out for your attention, in his
own way?
Not saying that is the problem in your family;
just saying that when one of my kids is sad
and "acting out" I can calm the whole house
down by focusing positively on that kid, spending
time with my child, doing stuff that child likes
to do, and being attentive and respectful.
HTH, YMMV, take it with a grain of salt...
... I'm new here, too!
Kelly Sturman
you do stuff with him, or was he just sort
of at loose ends? I wonder why he
felt so bored at home that he prefered
going (returing?) to school?
I have children who prefers negative
attention to no attention. If I am not
giving a particular child enough
attention--and it can be challenging, as I have
five pretty close in age to one another--, then
there are going to be tantrums and hitting and breaking
things.
Then I know the problem is I am not paying
enough attention to each child individually.
Everybody in the family wants one-on-one time
with mom, and with dad, too. Doing things
all together is great, but we need to have individual,
distinct relationships and private time with one
another, too.
I may very well be misreading the situation, but could
your child be crying out for your attention, in his
own way?
Not saying that is the problem in your family;
just saying that when one of my kids is sad
and "acting out" I can calm the whole house
down by focusing positively on that kid, spending
time with my child, doing stuff that child likes
to do, and being attentive and respectful.
HTH, YMMV, take it with a grain of salt...
... I'm new here, too!
Kelly Sturman
kelly_sturman
OOPS! Forgot to add, please remember that
my family is a blended family of two bio and
three adoptive children, adopted at "older" ages
from bad situations. I am not talking about
five children born to me and raised AP from birth.
Also, the longer we deschool, the less of this sort
of behavior we see.
Kelly
my family is a blended family of two bio and
three adoptive children, adopted at "older" ages
from bad situations. I am not talking about
five children born to me and raised AP from birth.
Also, the longer we deschool, the less of this sort
of behavior we see.
Kelly
--- In [email protected], "kelly_sturman" <conspicuousfamily@...> wrote:
> If I am not
> giving a particular child enough
> attention--and it can be challenging, as I have
> five pretty close in age to one another--, then
> there are going to be tantrums and hitting and breaking
> things.
karinester
Hi,
I just have a short tip to give you that you may check out if you feel that it may have any relevance to your sons situation. I sincerely belive that all children are intelligent, loving persons that will do the best they can within the situation they are in. Our children have many needs that we as parents needs to see to, and one that we usually don´t think so much about is the nutritional needs. Of course we feed them, but the right information about childrens actual nutritional needs is not easy to come by. The big food industri and certinely the pharmaceutical industry have no interest in our childrens wellbeeing, they care about profit. And it still amazes me (after spending a couple of years serching about it)just how much of the "information" about our childrens dietary needs from doctors, schools and other supposedly "neutral" institutions that are funded by theese two major industries. I did my own research and found that our standard diet is very deficient in some important nutrition, mainly the fatsoluble vitamins A, D and E wich are crucial for our brain and nervous system. I live in Sweden and India (please excuse my sometimes crappy english), but the modern diet here is not much different from the standard American one. The addition of theese vitamins to childrens diet (in its natural form, synthetic vitamin pills will not do) have proven miracluos to childrens mental and fysical wellbeeing. My son was four years when I started to give him foods rich in fatsoluble vitamins and he is not a sunshine all the time (then I would be worried!) but he has no tantrums or unreasonable angerattacs anymore. He is a focused and healthy boy now, and it is because his nutritional needs are fulfilled for the first time in his life. I highly recommend to check out www.westonaprice.org and www.healingourchildren.net for more information. Those websites have given me a ton of info that I think everybody needs to read. Good luck to you and your family!
Sincerely, Karin
[email protected], "Tiffany" <diapermama@...> wrote:
I just have a short tip to give you that you may check out if you feel that it may have any relevance to your sons situation. I sincerely belive that all children are intelligent, loving persons that will do the best they can within the situation they are in. Our children have many needs that we as parents needs to see to, and one that we usually don´t think so much about is the nutritional needs. Of course we feed them, but the right information about childrens actual nutritional needs is not easy to come by. The big food industri and certinely the pharmaceutical industry have no interest in our childrens wellbeeing, they care about profit. And it still amazes me (after spending a couple of years serching about it)just how much of the "information" about our childrens dietary needs from doctors, schools and other supposedly "neutral" institutions that are funded by theese two major industries. I did my own research and found that our standard diet is very deficient in some important nutrition, mainly the fatsoluble vitamins A, D and E wich are crucial for our brain and nervous system. I live in Sweden and India (please excuse my sometimes crappy english), but the modern diet here is not much different from the standard American one. The addition of theese vitamins to childrens diet (in its natural form, synthetic vitamin pills will not do) have proven miracluos to childrens mental and fysical wellbeeing. My son was four years when I started to give him foods rich in fatsoluble vitamins and he is not a sunshine all the time (then I would be worried!) but he has no tantrums or unreasonable angerattacs anymore. He is a focused and healthy boy now, and it is because his nutritional needs are fulfilled for the first time in his life. I highly recommend to check out www.westonaprice.org and www.healingourchildren.net for more information. Those websites have given me a ton of info that I think everybody needs to read. Good luck to you and your family!
Sincerely, Karin
[email protected], "Tiffany" <diapermama@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all, this is my first post and sorry up front for the novella. I have
> been observing for a couple months now. I am not going to classify myself as
> a RU... just a mom who sees many benefits of adding unschooling philosophy
> to our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting. It is the ideas as
> it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
> school age kids are in public school, their choice. My son (almost 9) did
> come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and went back
> to school.
>
>
>
> This post is about him. It has been one of those days when I am so
> discouraged I just want to roll up into a ball and stay like that for days.
> I have three kids, 3, 5, and 8. My 8 year son is so challenging I am at my
> wit's end.
>
>
>
> He was pretty much raised in a very attached home. I breastfed, he co-slept
> from the beginning, he was carried every waking moment or he would scream,
> and he has been raised with very few arbitrary rules. I did have to work
> outside the home until he was almost 4 though. :-( I was raised in a very
> verbally and sometime physically abusive environment so I am not saying that
> I have been the perfect peaceful parent. I have a temper. But from the
> beginning I knew I wanted to raise my kids differently then I was and that
> meant no barrage of stupid rules or smothering my kids with endless
> expectations.
>
>
>
> The problem is that my son is verbally and physically abusive to me and his
> siblings. He treats virtually no one with respect even though that is not
> the way he is treated. It is starting to rub off on my two other kids as
> they learn to handle things the way my oldest does. badly!
>
>
>
> Just a few for instance scenarios from today: My oldest was mad that his
> three year old brother went into the room they are SUPPOSED to share and got
> into his crafting supplies. Never mind the fact that the 3 year old gets
> ousted from his own room I have suggested numerous times that if he does not
> want his brother to go in there all he needs to do is shut the door, since
> baby brother cannot open it. He almost never shuts the door though and in
> fact almost never shuts the doors to the house which has resulted in his
> brother running outside and into the street. So. his brother messed with his
> stuff. He responded by running out of the room and punching his brother in
> the back and saying "he deserved it!"
>
>
>
> I talked to him about it and couldn't get him to see that he can't hit his
> siblings. He insists that if they do this or that then he WILL hit them. He
> tells me matter-o-factly that THIS is the way it is!
>
>
>
> Today as we were leaving his grandmother's house for a visit he was mad that
> a puzzle she bought had to stay at her home. So he threw it across the room
> in a rage. I stood by the door and told him we would leave after he picked
> up the puzzle pieces and put it away. He spent a few minutes throwing it
> around some more and then realized I was serious and eventually picked it
> up. He was so furious about having to pick up the mess he made that he
> walked out the door smacking a Snapple bottle on the side of the house until
> it broke and squirted tea all over him. My 5 year daughter laughed and so he
> assaulted her and started hitting her saying that she laughed so she
> "deserves this".
>
>
>
> All the way he home he fought with his siblings, often deliberately doing
> things to provoke them and then lying about it. A couple times he hit me in
> the head while I was driving with something from the back seat. By the time
> we got home I had it and sent him to his room.
>
>
>
> He doesn't seem to know how to deal with anger and he could not handle being
> made to clean up after his own tantrum so it turned into a 2 hour session of
> torturing to get back at us.
>
>
>
> He has zero friends because truthfully no one can stand him for long. He
> ends up getting bullied at school because he has rather bizarre behavior,
> clucking like chicken, shrill screams for no reason, clapping loudly in
> people's faces, etc. I assume they are tics of some sort and have often felt
> he has some high functioning autism characteristics.
>
>
>
> We just moved into a new house and he made a new friend that lasted for all
> of 3 days until the parents of the child ordered my son to go away and stay
> away.
>
>
>
> Yesterday the father came to my door banging loudly and when I opened it he
> yelled at me to keep my "KID" off his property. Apparently he sits on his
> bike in front of their property or in their driveway, probably hoping the
> child will come out. When I told my son that the man came over, he assumed
> it was a different neighbor from a completely different street! So he has
> already got two families in our new neighborhood mad at us. And
> unfortunately for my daughter she is also not allowed to play at the
> neighbor's house because of my son, so he is ruining her friendships too.
>
>
>
> This morning I caught him yelling at the paper boy to get off our property.
> He does not seem to realize or care that this behavior is the reason why he
> has no friends.
>
>
>
> He is also not doing so well adjusting to a new economic situation. My
> husband who was absent for most of his formative years cause he was a truck
> driver is now home. We decided to do with less money so he could be home all
> the time. This means that all the kids have to do with less. We don't live
> in as a nice a house, we don't give them as many toys and gifts, we don't
> vacation as much and we used to do a lot. But the finances as well as the
> fact that my son doesn't respect or care for any of his possessions is
> wearing thin on us. He has trashed 4 bikes and gone through 4-5 DVD players
> in the past 2 years. I don't think a day goes by when we don't have at least
> 1 tantrum about having to say no to some request that involves us spending
> quite a bit of money on him. new rollerblades to replace the ones he left
> outside to get ruined, a visit to the water park, a trip to the batting
> cages. He has expensive tastes and we cannot fulfill his requests. When we
> do it is not good enough. I got season passes to the zoo and he will throw a
> fit about not being able to ride the amusement park rides at the theme park
> next door or throw a fit if I only stay 4 hours and he doesn't get to see
> every single exhibit. I just feel like nothing we do for him is enough. He
> is always unhappy and angry. saying life is unfair, we are unfair, and they
> we are bad parents.
>
>
>
> I also want to note that he has TONS of freedom. He has no bedtime, chores,
> or even any rules beyond don't hurt anyone or their property. He spends most
> of his days out on his bike riding around and playing. by himself. I only
> ask that he not go too far away and make me have to mount a search party to
> find him. and he usually abides that. In his room he has a 50 inch TV,
> cable, two video game consoles, a Nintendo DS, and hundreds of DVDs. He has
> no limits on any of it. time or content. So our struggles have nothing to do
> with his rebelling against all our unfair rules because there really aren't
> any. If anything he is rebelling against the only real limitations we have
> which are in regards to people and property.
>
>
>
> Anyway, his behavior is getting so stressful that it has me feeling like a
> failure as a parent. I also feel I spend so much time trying to protect my
> other kids from him and counteract the negative example he leaves for them.
> My daughter is in constant reaction mode. just waiting for him to do
> something to her or one of her belongings. I want to cry when I hear my 3
> year old saying "stop. your hurting me!"
>
>
>
> Don't know what to do anymore. when I look at my two younger kids I would
> say that attachment parenting, peaceful & respectful parenting, and
> unschooling are doing wondrous things. I cannot say the same when I look at
> my oldest.. I just wonder what the heck I am doing wrong.
>
>
>
> As I write this he just came up to me screaming and demanding to know why I
> was in his room messing with his TV and turning the channel. I told him that
> I have not been in his room and he screams "LIAR!" at me and runs out of the
> house.. Sigh. This is the norm with him.
>
>
>
> I am really looking for some advice here. don't be afraid to hurt my
> feelings if I am screwing it all up. I need to find peace for my son for all
> our sakes.
>
>
>
> Tijja
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Lyla Wolfenstein
first of all, i want to say i really really REALLY feel for you, as i recognize my son in yourr description of your own son. he was also raised in a very attached way, breastfed til 4.5 years old, co-slept, wore him in a sling, super alternative schools, etc. he was my second child, so i felt i had made my mistakes with my first and knew what i wanted to do "right" with him. but he is a really different person than my older child, and, although i still believe all those things were right (except school) - it didn't make things easy.
that said, my son is almost 11, and the most difficult time was from 8-10, with the greatest transformation coming from a complete paradigm shift within our family. we still struggle - he still struggles - with STRONG emotions, a tendency to blame, a negative first response, and a not so great self esteem, truthfully, but things are dramatically better than they were a year ago, and i do think he would be struggling with much of this regardless of what we did to help - it would just be a LOT worse if he was still in school, and if we were still making some of the mistakes we were making up until a year ago.
in fact, i actually think he would not be functioning as a human at all if things had been allowed to go on much longer. it was truly tearing our family apart and his sanity apart.
so- yeah - i get it. i feel for you - now i am going to respond to the separate parts of your post below:
come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and went back
to school.
siblings. He treats virtually no one with respect even though that is not
the way he is treated. It is starting to rub off on my two other kids as
they learn to handle things the way my oldest does. badly!
i am going to respond to the rest in a separate post so this doesn't get too long.
warmly, Lyla
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that said, my son is almost 11, and the most difficult time was from 8-10, with the greatest transformation coming from a complete paradigm shift within our family. we still struggle - he still struggles - with STRONG emotions, a tendency to blame, a negative first response, and a not so great self esteem, truthfully, but things are dramatically better than they were a year ago, and i do think he would be struggling with much of this regardless of what we did to help - it would just be a LOT worse if he was still in school, and if we were still making some of the mistakes we were making up until a year ago.
in fact, i actually think he would not be functioning as a human at all if things had been allowed to go on much longer. it was truly tearing our family apart and his sanity apart.
so- yeah - i get it. i feel for you - now i am going to respond to the separate parts of your post below:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>My son (almost 9) did
come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and went back
to school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my son gets bored a lot too - he has a sort of inner restlessness and i think some anxiety underlying it, and he feels unsettled often. i have found he needs MUCH more of me - my availability, my ideas, my initiation, my laughter, my touch, me being *interesting* - AND interesTED in what HE is interested in, than my other child, to stay centered and contented. how does your son feel about school?
>>>>>>>>>>>>The problem is that my son is verbally and physically abusive to me and his
siblings. He treats virtually no one with respect even though that is not
the way he is treated. It is starting to rub off on my two other kids as
they learn to handle things the way my oldest does. badly!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it took me a lot to figure out, and it still challenges me at times, but if i were you, i'd REALLY examine what feeling respected looks like to him. my son has finally been able to tell me/help me see/i've figured out, all the ways in which he was NOT being respected for *who he is* and how, even if we are respecting him in the ways WE want to be respected, the ways that are meaningful to *him* are the ways in which he will actually receive respect/experience it/learn how to give it.
i am going to respond to the rest in a separate post so this doesn't get too long.
warmly, Lyla
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
>>>>>>>Just a few for instance scenarios from today: My oldest was mad that histhree year old brother went into the room they are SUPPOSED to share and got
into his crafting supplies. >>>>>>>
supposed to? how did that get decided?
>>>>>>>>>Never mind the fact that the 3 year old getsousted from his own room I have suggested numerous times that if he does not
want his brother to go in there all he needs to do is shut the door, since
baby brother cannot open it.>>>>>>>>>
he isn't old enough to be expected to remember to do that. and even if he WAS 'technically" old enough, if he keeps forgetting, he, personally, isn't capable. he needs help. he needs a safe high place to keep his special stuff. he needs you to make sure it is put away safely out of reach of the 3 year old...etc.
>>>>>>>>> He almost never shuts the door though and infact almost never shuts the doors to the house which has resulted in his
brother running outside and into the street. So. his brother messed with his
stuff. He responded by running out of the room and punching his brother in
the back and saying "he deserved it!">>>>>>
we definitely have had lots of "deserves" and "retribution" type talk and actions with our son, even though that isn't how we function with him. i do think some of it is developmental - that stage of black and white thinking, very concrete. at 8, most kids just don't have the impulse control or the frontal lobe capacity to reign themselves in when overcome with emotion, and extra-intense kids who feel things even more strongly often seem to have even less of that impulse control. we need to be their "surrogate frontal lobe" - we need to use our superior prediction skills, our "radar" for things amping up, our preventive skills, etc. to avoid that amping up of emotions o step in before things escalate when we miss the first cues. have you read "the explosive child"? i'd really recommend it - make sure to get the newer version, as he fixed a lot of the less unschooly-friendly aspects.
>>>>>>>>>>I talked to him about it and couldn't get him to see that he can't hit hissiblings. He insists that if they do this or that then he WILL hit them. He
tells me matter-o-factly that THIS is the way it is!>>>>>>>>
talk and reasoning and "getting him to see" is totally ineffective for most 8 year olds, and especially those who are overwhelmed with emotion. did you try empathy? without correction first? without "getting him" to see or accept or acknowledge anything? LISTENING to him and really getting him - empathizing with his strong emotions, will likely go muuuuuuuuuuuch further with helping him learn, over time, to empathize and listen to others. and by listen i mean listen - with ears and heart - not "obey" - which is what many people actually mean when they say "listen".
>>>>>>>>Today as we were leaving his grandmother's house for a visit he was mad thata puzzle she bought had to stay at her home. So he threw it across the room
in a rage. I stood by the door and told him we would leave after he picked
up the puzzle pieces and put it away. >>>>>>>>>
first - i would have seen if it WAS actually possible to borrow the puzzle. and if not, really truly empathized with how much he wanted to. then - if he still threw it, i would take that as a sign that he had crossed over in to *totally irrational* phase - and that pushing him further into that zone, with forced cleaning, shaming, etc., would ONLY make things more miserable - and would definitely not teach the lesson intended. i'd clean it up myself, or ask my parents to do it (hopefully that would work with the relationship) and *get my kid out of there* to a safe space.
>>>>>He spent a few minutes throwing itaround some more and then realized I was serious and eventually picked it
up. He was so furious about having to pick up the mess he made that he
walked out the door smacking a Snapple bottle on the side of the house until
it broke and squirted tea all over him. My 5 year daughter laughed and so he
assaulted her and started hitting her saying that she laughed so she
"deserves this".>>>
yeah - whenever i engage in a power struggle with my kids i lose. even if they do what i want. because when we engage in a power struggle, we aren't usually actually trying to get the THING done (was the puzzle really the issue for you?) - we are TRYING to teach a lesson. and nobody will learn with forced teaching. that's kind of a primary basis for unschooling!
>>>All the way he home he fought with his siblings, often deliberately doingthings to provoke them and then lying about it. >>
if you knew he did it, how come he had a chance to lie? if you asked him "did you ___" when you knew the answer, that is a set up for him to lose. he needed a partner, not another adversary. and not to feel like a black sheep - with the "good, younger siblings" agains him....
>>>>.A couple times he hit me inthe head while I was driving with something from the back seat. By the time
we got home I had it and sent him to his room.>>>>>
>>>He doesn't seem to know how to deal with anger and he could not handle beingmade to clean up after his own tantrum so it turned into a 2 hour session of
torturing to get back at us.>>>
thhat's because a tantrum is a cry for help. not getting that help, and then being asked to "clean up" without help (figuratively and literally) is just twisting the knife...i know that sounds harsh, and i KNOW you didn't mean it that way. but i suspect that's how he experienced it...
and if you had gone to him (or next time if you go to him) and apologize for not handling it well, and find true empathy and connection with him, i'd be willing to bet he would "need" to "torture" you all fo 2 hours. and who is the "us"? do you hear the us vs. him sentiment in your post? you can *bet* he feels it. :)
>>>>>He has zero friends because truthfully no one can stand him for long. He
ends up getting bullied at school because he has rather bizarre behavior,
clucking like chicken, shrill screams for no reason, clapping loudly in
people's faces, etc. I assume they are tics of some sort and have often felt
he has some high functioning autism characteristics.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
so why is he in school? how does he feel about not having friends? what are his *triggers* for those behaviors? does he do that at home? in safe places? when he feels good? or just at school/when under stress?
>>>>>>>>>>We just moved into a new house and he made a new friend that lasted for allof 3 days until the parents of the child ordered my son to go away and stay
away.>>>>>>>
it sounds like he needs WAY more support when outside/around other people. an 8 year old, alone, with no friends, and few people skills, is not likely to make friends/be well received by neighbors. can you be out there with him while he rrides around? more engagement? games with the neighbor kids? it sounds like he is being set up to fail and then blamed for failing. he NEEDS you to know him - really know him - and support him with that knowledge by being there for him in the areas in which he struggles.
>>>>>>>This morning I caught him yelling at the paper boy to get off our property.
He does not seem to realize or care that this behavior is the reason why he
has no friends.>>>>>>
or maybe he realizes AND cares but does not have the TOOLS to do differently. he needs your help. and time.
>>>>>>>>>> When wedo it is not good enough. I got season passes to the zoo and he will throw a
fit about not being able to ride the amusement park rides at the theme park
next door or throw a fit if I only stay 4 hours and he doesn't get to see
every single exhibit. I just feel like nothing we do for him is enough. He
is always unhappy and angry. saying life is unfair, we are unfair, and they
we are bad parents. >>>
it sounds like it's a perpetual deep feeling of discontent, not being *seen* and understood, etc. - and the best way he knows how to communicate that is with tangible complaints. i'd bet if he feels safer, more accepted, and *seen*, he will be more receptive to life's natural limits. that said, get creative! find ways to say YES as best you can. collaborate on decisions regarding money expenditures. honor his values, interests and passions. it really can be easier!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I also want to note that he has TONS of freedom. He has no bedtime, chores,
or even any rules beyond don't hurt anyone or their property. He spends most
of his days out on his bike riding around and playing. by himself. I only
ask that he not go too far away and make me have to mount a search party to
find him. and he usually abides that. >>>>>>>>>>
that sounds very lonely, actually. i mean, it might be idyllic for some - but given that your son sounds so unhappy, i'd say it isn't working for him!
>>>>>>>in his room he has a 50 inch TV,cable, two video game consoles, a Nintendo DS, and hundreds of DVDs. He has
no limits on any of it. time or content. >>>
is there CONNECTION around his interests? do you bring him snacks while he plays in his room? do you talk to him about his shows or games? watch with him? what is he interested in? what is your role in expanding on that? it sounds like he has THINGS but not relationship...forgive me if i am misreading.
>>>> I also feel I spend so much time trying to protect myother kids from him and counteract the negative example he leaves for them.
My daughter is in constant reaction mode. just waiting for him to do
something to her or one of her belongings. I want to cry when I hear my 3
year old saying "stop. your hurting me!">>>>>>>
i'd urge you to be CLOSER at all times. make sure he doesnt' have a chance to hurt anyone, because every time he does, he is hurting himself too, and every time you don't get there in time to stop him, you are losing an oppotunity to help him! try not to think of him as the perpetrator and your other kids as victims, he is a victim of himself in a way and all your kids will learn something very valuable from observing and receiving proactive empathy and support and prevention.
>>>>>As I write this he just came up to me screaming and demanding to know why Iwas in his room messing with his TV and turning the channel. I told him that
I have not been in his room and he screams "LIAR!" at me and runs out of the
house.. Sigh. This is the norm with him.>>>>>>
i fear i have been harsh - but i want to end with this - because i really really do get how hard this is. i have been the recipient of the same, seemingly irrational behavior. but there is always more underneath - there IS some rhyme to the reason. or reason to the rhyme?
>>>I am really looking for some advice here. don't be afraid to hurt myfeelings if I am screwing it all up. I need to find peace for my son for all
our sakes.>>
well, i hope i haven't hurt your feelings, and i hope i've maybe helped a little.
warmly, Lyla
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Robyn L. Coburn
I think we need some more information.
Is there another older kid - you mention two in school (or do you mean the 5
year old as the other school age kid?)
<<<< My husband who was absent for most of his formative years cause he was
a truckdriver is now home. We decided to do with less money so he could be
home all the time. >>>>
I'm confused about this. When you say "home all the time" do you mean that
he is the primary caregiver undertaking the unschooling, or that his job is
outside the home, but doesn't require travelling? I'm guessing the latter
since he is absent from your story other than this mention, but I don't want
to make recommendations based on a possibly wrong guess.
I think it sounds a lot like all your kids are without an adult presence
much of the time. I mean an immediate, in the same room, right beside them
participating or observing adult presence. There are many clues in your
story that suggest that you are in another room or part of the house
altogether, and only responding after you hear a problem arising, talking
after the blowup has occurred. Immediately after a blowup or meltdown with
emotions still running high is the worst time for a lot of words. Another
quiet time, when everyone is calm and relaxed, is better for talking over
problems and asking for their ideas for solutions.
When it seemed there were frequent blowups with my dd, Jayn, and her
neighbor friends, my answer was to be a visible presence. It prevented some
instances and also ensured that one child who was prone to lying couldn't
get away with it, since there was an adult witness. After a time the problem
behaviors faded away, with natural development and maturity on the part of
all the kids.
This is not the 1950's when (to judge by contemporary movies) it was
commonplace and apparently expected that kids would roam around
neighborhoods on their bikes or afoot. I think your son is wandering off
alone too much and too far from home for an evidently immature 8 year old.
OTOH it would help if home were more fun so that he wanted to stay there. It
sounds like home is a place where he is being expected to entertain himself
with his plethora of gadgets. Jayn loves her Nintendo DS, especially when
she links to Daddy's. She loves Wii as long as someone is playing with her.
She loves playing on line games, as long as she can frequently show me the
dressed up characters she has created.
We too have had changes in our financial circumstances. It has been hard on
Jayn who has been used to being able to add things to her collections, and
on all of us because we loved travelling a lot to visit our unschooling
friends. But we have been open with her about our situation and our hopes
for the future. Sometimes she complains and wishes, but most of the time she
is happy to make lists, and save towards things. She has even started her
own business with the idea of contributing to her own happiness.
Jayn is very obnoxious when she is hungry. She makes poor decisions and
speaks appallingly rudely to me. That is when she is likely to throw stuff.
My dh has recently pointed out that I get cranky and speak haughtily and
rudely (without hearing it in myself) when I am hungry too! Maybe your ds is
getting hungry more often and sooner than you would expect. Were there
plenty of snacks available at Grandma's that time?
Jayn also sometimes irritated her playmates by wanting to be overly
controlling or bossy - or at least she sounds bossy, without intending to
be. We have had conversations about asking what others would like to play
and sharing the decision making process.
It's about to be summer. Make home much more interesting and fun than school
was, then offer to just stay home and keep on having fun come fall as if
school wasn't there.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Is there another older kid - you mention two in school (or do you mean the 5
year old as the other school age kid?)
<<<< My husband who was absent for most of his formative years cause he was
a truckdriver is now home. We decided to do with less money so he could be
home all the time. >>>>
I'm confused about this. When you say "home all the time" do you mean that
he is the primary caregiver undertaking the unschooling, or that his job is
outside the home, but doesn't require travelling? I'm guessing the latter
since he is absent from your story other than this mention, but I don't want
to make recommendations based on a possibly wrong guess.
I think it sounds a lot like all your kids are without an adult presence
much of the time. I mean an immediate, in the same room, right beside them
participating or observing adult presence. There are many clues in your
story that suggest that you are in another room or part of the house
altogether, and only responding after you hear a problem arising, talking
after the blowup has occurred. Immediately after a blowup or meltdown with
emotions still running high is the worst time for a lot of words. Another
quiet time, when everyone is calm and relaxed, is better for talking over
problems and asking for their ideas for solutions.
When it seemed there were frequent blowups with my dd, Jayn, and her
neighbor friends, my answer was to be a visible presence. It prevented some
instances and also ensured that one child who was prone to lying couldn't
get away with it, since there was an adult witness. After a time the problem
behaviors faded away, with natural development and maturity on the part of
all the kids.
This is not the 1950's when (to judge by contemporary movies) it was
commonplace and apparently expected that kids would roam around
neighborhoods on their bikes or afoot. I think your son is wandering off
alone too much and too far from home for an evidently immature 8 year old.
OTOH it would help if home were more fun so that he wanted to stay there. It
sounds like home is a place where he is being expected to entertain himself
with his plethora of gadgets. Jayn loves her Nintendo DS, especially when
she links to Daddy's. She loves Wii as long as someone is playing with her.
She loves playing on line games, as long as she can frequently show me the
dressed up characters she has created.
We too have had changes in our financial circumstances. It has been hard on
Jayn who has been used to being able to add things to her collections, and
on all of us because we loved travelling a lot to visit our unschooling
friends. But we have been open with her about our situation and our hopes
for the future. Sometimes she complains and wishes, but most of the time she
is happy to make lists, and save towards things. She has even started her
own business with the idea of contributing to her own happiness.
Jayn is very obnoxious when she is hungry. She makes poor decisions and
speaks appallingly rudely to me. That is when she is likely to throw stuff.
My dh has recently pointed out that I get cranky and speak haughtily and
rudely (without hearing it in myself) when I am hungry too! Maybe your ds is
getting hungry more often and sooner than you would expect. Were there
plenty of snacks available at Grandma's that time?
Jayn also sometimes irritated her playmates by wanting to be overly
controlling or bossy - or at least she sounds bossy, without intending to
be. We have had conversations about asking what others would like to play
and sharing the decision making process.
It's about to be summer. Make home much more interesting and fun than school
was, then offer to just stay home and keep on having fun come fall as if
school wasn't there.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Alan Forrester
> Hi all, this is my first post and sorry up front for the novella. I haveIf being at home is boring for him then it follows that being at school is less boring for him. You should ask him what he finds less boring about school.
> been observing for a couple months now. I am not going to classify myself as
> a RU... just a mom who sees many benefits of adding unschooling philosophy
> to our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting. It is the ideas as
> it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
> school age kids are in public school, their choice. My son (almost 9) did
> come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and went back
> to school.
Also, it sounds to me as if you might be self-sacrificing. You try to give him everything he wants immediately even when it is inconvenient for you. This naturally makes you a bit angry and annoyed and affects your behaviour toward him whether you intend it to or not. As a result he is never sure about whether he can trust you not to get angry and so he lets any dissatisfaction he feels build up until he releases it by asking you for something you find unreasonable.
You and your child need to find a way of getting things you want without hurting one another. You need to start finding common preferences when you and your child have a conflict. A common preference is an option that you both prefer to whatever you wanted to do originally. You need to pay attention to him a lot more and start heading off problems before he starts hitting people. You need to think creatively about things he might like to do and suggest them in advance. And you need to explain to him that he has a lot to gain by cooperating with other people:
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/introductory_articles_on_TCS
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/introduction_to_taking_children_seriously_tcs
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/feeling_bad
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/unschooling_and_schooling_as_a_continuum
> This post is about him. It has been one of those days when I am soThat's good.
> discouraged I just want to roll up into a ball and stay like that for days.
> I have three kids, 3, 5, and 8. My 8 year son is so challenging I am at my
> wit's end.
>
> He was pretty much raised in a very attached home. I breastfed, he co-slept
> from the beginning, he was carried every waking moment or he would scream,
> and he has been raised with very few arbitrary rules. I did have to work
> outside the home until he was almost 4 though. :-( I was raised in a very
> verbally and sometime physically abusive environment so I am not saying that
> I have been the perfect peaceful parent. I have a temper. But from the
> beginning I knew I wanted to raise my kids differently then I was and that
> meant no barrage of stupid rules or smothering my kids with endless
> expectations.
> The problem is that my son is verbally and physically abusive to me and hisWhy doesn't he close the door? He wants his brother to come in so he can hit him.
> siblings. He treats virtually no one with respect even though that is not
> the way he is treated. It is starting to rub off on my two other kids as
> they learn to handle things the way my oldest does. badly!
>
> Just a few for instance scenarios from today: My oldest was mad that his
> three year old brother went into the room they are SUPPOSED to share and got
> into his crafting supplies. Never mind the fact that the 3 year old gets
> ousted from his own room I have suggested numerous times that if he does not
> want his brother to go in there all he needs to do is shut the door, since
> baby brother cannot open it. He almost never shuts the door though and in
> fact almost never shuts the doors to the house which has resulted in his
> brother running outside and into the street. So. his brother messed with his
> stuff. He responded by running out of the room and punching his brother in
> the back and saying "he deserved it!"
> I talked to him about it and couldn't get him to see that he can't hit hisSeems to me that you're focusing on what he should not do rather than on explaining that the reason he shouldn't do it is that there are much better ways for him to get what he wants. If he finds common preferences with other people instead of hitting the he gets access not just to the ideas he has about what kinds of things are interesting and fun but also to the ideas of the rest of the family.
> siblings. He insists that if they do this or that then he WILL hit them. He
> tells me matter-o-factly that THIS is the way it is!
> Today as we were leaving his grandmother's house for a visit he was mad thatDid you offer to buy him another copy of the puzzle? What about buying a new copy of the puzzle for the grandmother and taking her copy?
> a puzzle she bought had to stay at her home. So he threw it across the room
> in a rage. I stood by the door and told him we would leave after he picked
> up the puzzle pieces and put it away.
If you see he's interested in something ask him he cant take away ask him if he would like one well before you have to leave so that he has time to adapt and won't blow up later.
> He spent a few minutes throwing itWhile he is angry he's not likely to be willing to deal with whatever is bothering him. So you need to try to head things off before he gets angry.
> around some more and then realized I was serious and eventually picked it
> up. He was so furious about having to pick up the mess he made that he
> walked out the door smacking a Snapple bottle on the side of the house until
> it broke and squirted tea all over him. My 5 year daughter laughed and so he
> assaulted her and started hitting her saying that she laughed so she
> "deserves this".
>
> All the way he home he fought with his siblings, often deliberately doing
> things to provoke them and then lying about it. A couple times he hit me in
> the head while I was driving with something from the back seat. By the time
> we got home I had it and sent him to his room.
>
> He doesn't seem to know how to deal with anger and he could not handle being
> made to clean up after his own tantrum so it turned into a 2 hour session of
> torturing to get back at us.
> He has zero friends because truthfully no one can stand him for long. HeThe only way he knows of getting what he wants is annoying other people until they give him what he wants or he gets rid of them through violence. Also he probably gets a rush from hitting people because of the danger they'll hit him back.
> ends up getting bullied at school because he has rather bizarre behavior,
> clucking like chicken, shrill screams for no reason, clapping loudly in
> people's faces, etc. I assume they are tics of some sort and have often felt
> he has some high functioning autism characteristics.
> We just moved into a new house and he made a new friend that lasted for allIf the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
> of 3 days until the parents of the child ordered my son to go away and stay
> away.
>
> Yesterday the father came to my door banging loudly and when I opened it he
> yelled at me to keep my "KID" off his property. Apparently he sits on his
> bike in front of their property or in their driveway, probably hoping the
> child will come out. When I told my son that the man came over, he assumed
> it was a different neighbor from a completely different street! So he has
> already got two families in our new neighborhood mad at us. And
> unfortunately for my daughter she is also not allowed to play at the
> neighbor's house because of my son, so he is ruining her friendships too.
>
> This morning I caught him yelling at the paper boy to get off our property.
> He does not seem to realize or care that this behavior is the reason why he
> has no friends.
> He is also not doing so well adjusting to a new economic situation. MyHe feels bad because he has bad ideas about how to live his life that lead to him being unable to cooperate with other people. You need to find a time when he's not angry and talk to him about how to solve problems. You need to explain that he will benefit by finding common preferences with other people.. And you need to understand that you should not try to act as a doormat because that hurts both you and him.
> husband who was absent for most of his formative years cause he was a truck
> driver is now home. We decided to do with less money so he could be home all
> the time. This means that all the kids have to do with less. We don't live
> in as a nice a house, we don't give them as many toys and gifts, we don't
> vacation as much and we used to do a lot. But the finances as well as the
> fact that my son doesn't respect or care for any of his possessions is
> wearing thin on us. He has trashed 4 bikes and gone through 4-5 DVD players
> in the past 2 years. I don't think a day goes by when we don't have at least
> 1 tantrum about having to say no to some request that involves us spending
> quite a bit of money on him. new rollerblades to replace the ones he left
> outside to get ruined, a visit to the water park, a trip to the batting
> cages. He has expensive tastes and we cannot fulfill his requests. When we
> do it is not good enough. I got season passes to the zoo and he will throw a
> fit about not being able to ride the amusement park rides at the theme park
> next door or throw a fit if I only stay 4 hours and he doesn't get to see
> every single exhibit. I just feel like nothing we do for him is enough. He
> is always unhappy and angry. saying life is unfair, we are unfair, and they
> we are bad parents.
>
> I also want to note that he has TONS of freedom. He has no bedtime, chores,
> or even any rules beyond don't hurt anyone or their property. He spends most
> of his days out on his bike riding around and playing. by himself. I only
> ask that he not go too far away and make me have to mount a search party to
> find him. and he usually abides that. In his room he has a 50 inch TV,
> cable, two video game consoles, a Nintendo DS, and hundreds of DVDs. He has
> no limits on any of it. time or content. So our struggles have nothing to do
> with his rebelling against all our unfair rules because there really aren't
> any. If anything he is rebelling against the only real limitations we have
> which are in regards to people and property.
> Anyway, his behavior is getting so stressful that it has me feeling like aI'd recommend keeping your son away from the other two for a while.
> failure as a parent. I also feel I spend so much time trying to protect my
> other kids from him and counteract the negative example he leaves for them.
> My daughter is in constant reaction mode. just waiting for him to do
> something to her or one of her belongings. I want to cry when I hear my 3
> year old saying "stop. your hurting me!"
> Don't know what to do anymore. when I look at my two younger kids I wouldSeems to me like the thing to say here is: "Do you want help with your TV?"
> say that attachment parenting, peaceful & respectful parenting, and
> unschooling are doing wondrous things. I cannot say the same when I look at
> my oldest.. I just wonder what the heck I am doing wrong.
>
> As I write this he just came up to me screaming and demanding to know why I
> was in his room messing with his TV and turning the channel. I told him that
> I have not been in his room and he screams "LIAR!" at me and runs out of the
> house.. Sigh. This is the norm with him.
> I am really looking for some advice here. don't be afraid to hurt myYou've done some very good things that most people never think of doing. You've just focused a bit too much on lack of coercion rather than problem-solving.
> feelings if I am screwing it all up. I need to find peace for my son for all
> our sakes.
Alan Forrester
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/
Sandra Dodd
I'm glad others responded. I've only read one of the responses, but
I'm going to admit to something.
-=- I have
been observing for a couple months now. I am not going to classify
myself as
a RU... just a mom who sees many benefits of adding unschooling
philosophy
to our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting. It is the
ideas as
it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
school age kids are in public school, their choice.-=-
This list isn't for helping people with problems school is causing or
exacerbating. It's overwhelming to unschoolers here sometimes, the
volume and depth of unschooling problems they read and try to assist
with.
I nearly didn't let the post through, but considered that others might
have more energy and patience than I did for it.
This list is also not for helping people think that unschooling kind
of is anywhere near full-on unschooling.
I'll read the responses and write more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm going to admit to something.
-=- I have
been observing for a couple months now. I am not going to classify
myself as
a RU... just a mom who sees many benefits of adding unschooling
philosophy
to our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting. It is the
ideas as
it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
school age kids are in public school, their choice.-=-
This list isn't for helping people with problems school is causing or
exacerbating. It's overwhelming to unschoolers here sometimes, the
volume and depth of unschooling problems they read and try to assist
with.
I nearly didn't let the post through, but considered that others might
have more energy and patience than I did for it.
This list is also not for helping people think that unschooling kind
of is anywhere near full-on unschooling.
I'll read the responses and write more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tiffany
Thx for the response Kelly. :-)
"When he was home, what did he do? Did
you do stuff with him, or was he just sort
of at loose ends? I wonder why he
felt so bored at home that he prefered
going (returing?) to school?"
We worked on "school" stuff per his request in the mornings but then for the
rest of the day he was pretty much left to do whatever he wanted and he
ended up deciding that being alone all day while the other kids in the area
went to school was boring. Since I work from home I could not spend my days
making sure he was entertained or taking him to places where he could
socialize. I think it was being around lots of other kids that he missed.
"I may very well be misreading the situation, but could
your child be crying out for your attention, in his
own way?"
When he is acting out like this, it is very helpful for me to take him and
do something alone with him. a movie, read a book, etc BUT his good mood
only lasts as long as the activity. If I read 4 chapters of Harry Potter for
instance he will demand to know why I won't read more and maybe throw the
book across the room and we are back where we started.
Tijja
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"When he was home, what did he do? Did
you do stuff with him, or was he just sort
of at loose ends? I wonder why he
felt so bored at home that he prefered
going (returing?) to school?"
We worked on "school" stuff per his request in the mornings but then for the
rest of the day he was pretty much left to do whatever he wanted and he
ended up deciding that being alone all day while the other kids in the area
went to school was boring. Since I work from home I could not spend my days
making sure he was entertained or taking him to places where he could
socialize. I think it was being around lots of other kids that he missed.
"I may very well be misreading the situation, but could
your child be crying out for your attention, in his
own way?"
When he is acting out like this, it is very helpful for me to take him and
do something alone with him. a movie, read a book, etc BUT his good mood
only lasts as long as the activity. If I read 4 chapters of Harry Potter for
instance he will demand to know why I won't read more and maybe throw the
book across the room and we are back where we started.
Tijja
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tiffany
Thanks Alan, I appreciate the response.
"Also, it sounds to me as if you might be self-sacrificing. You try to give
him everything he wants immediately even when it is inconvenient for you.
This naturally makes you a bit angry and annoyed and affects your behaviour
toward him whether you intend it to or not. As a result he is never sure
about whether he can trust you not to get angry and so he lets any
dissatisfaction he feels build up until he releases it by asking you for
something you find unreasonable."
Yes, you are very right. My world seems to revolve around him and yet he is
still unhappy with everything I do. It does create some anger in me. I don't
want him to be grateful, just not disrespectful and mean.
"Did you offer to buy him another copy of the puzzle? What about buying a
new copy of the puzzle for the grandmother and taking her copy?
If you see he's interested in something ask him he cant take away ask him if
he would like one well before you have to leave so that he has time to adapt
and won't blow up later."
I "could" have offered to buy him a puzzle but then I would have inevitably
run into the situation at the store where the other two kids also "want"
something since he is getting something and I just spent a fortune to
appease his demands. The puzzle thing was his acting out about the way his
grandmother buys presents for him and his sister that can only be used at
her home. She wants them to have things to do when they visit her and she
doesn't allow them to take the stuff home. He feels that if it is his he
should be able to have it without conditions but his grandmother won't budge
on it so it is something he needs to accept. I try not to dwell on it so he
ends up having anger towards his grandmother but I cannot afford to buy
duplicates of everything so he has one at her house and one at mine.
"While he is angry he's not likely to be willing to deal with whatever is
bothering him. So you need to try to head things off before he gets angry."
I do need to be much better at this. I said his sister was in constant
reaction mode but I am too.
"Seems to me like the thing to say here is: "Do you want help with your TV?"
I guess it was important to me to establish that I did not do was accused
of.
"You've done some very good things that most people never think of doing.
You've just focused a bit too much on lack of coercion rather than
problem-solving."
Yes, I think this is exactly it.
Alan Forrester
http://www.takingch <http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/>
ildrenseriously.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Also, it sounds to me as if you might be self-sacrificing. You try to give
him everything he wants immediately even when it is inconvenient for you.
This naturally makes you a bit angry and annoyed and affects your behaviour
toward him whether you intend it to or not. As a result he is never sure
about whether he can trust you not to get angry and so he lets any
dissatisfaction he feels build up until he releases it by asking you for
something you find unreasonable."
Yes, you are very right. My world seems to revolve around him and yet he is
still unhappy with everything I do. It does create some anger in me. I don't
want him to be grateful, just not disrespectful and mean.
"Did you offer to buy him another copy of the puzzle? What about buying a
new copy of the puzzle for the grandmother and taking her copy?
If you see he's interested in something ask him he cant take away ask him if
he would like one well before you have to leave so that he has time to adapt
and won't blow up later."
I "could" have offered to buy him a puzzle but then I would have inevitably
run into the situation at the store where the other two kids also "want"
something since he is getting something and I just spent a fortune to
appease his demands. The puzzle thing was his acting out about the way his
grandmother buys presents for him and his sister that can only be used at
her home. She wants them to have things to do when they visit her and she
doesn't allow them to take the stuff home. He feels that if it is his he
should be able to have it without conditions but his grandmother won't budge
on it so it is something he needs to accept. I try not to dwell on it so he
ends up having anger towards his grandmother but I cannot afford to buy
duplicates of everything so he has one at her house and one at mine.
"While he is angry he's not likely to be willing to deal with whatever is
bothering him. So you need to try to head things off before he gets angry."
I do need to be much better at this. I said his sister was in constant
reaction mode but I am too.
"Seems to me like the thing to say here is: "Do you want help with your TV?"
I guess it was important to me to establish that I did not do was accused
of.
"You've done some very good things that most people never think of doing.
You've just focused a bit too much on lack of coercion rather than
problem-solving."
Yes, I think this is exactly it.
Alan Forrester
http://www.takingch <http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/>
ildrenseriously.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
My son (almost 9) did
come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and
went back
to school.
i think some anxiety underlying it, and he feels unsettled often. i
have found he needs MUCH more of me - my availability, my ideas, my
initiation, ....
==============================
People rarely think about "boredom." It's a vague complaint. It
might help to read these idea:
http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
Also, to make a choice, one needs to HAVE a choice. If home was more
boring than school, that wasn't much choice.
Anytime an unschooling home is boring, the parents need to step it up
and make it interesting. But more than just interesting, it should
be peaceful, and joyful, and nurturing (body/soul/spirit).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My son (almost 9) did
come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and
went back
to school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my son gets bored a lot too - he has a sort of inner restlessness and
i think some anxiety underlying it, and he feels unsettled often. i
have found he needs MUCH more of me - my availability, my ideas, my
initiation, ....
==============================
People rarely think about "boredom." It's a vague complaint. It
might help to read these idea:
http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
Also, to make a choice, one needs to HAVE a choice. If home was more
boring than school, that wasn't much choice.
Anytime an unschooling home is boring, the parents need to step it up
and make it interesting. But more than just interesting, it should
be peaceful, and joyful, and nurturing (body/soul/spirit).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=I talked to him about it and couldn't get him to see that he can't
hit his
siblings. He insists that if they do this or that then he WILL hit
them. He
tells me matter-o-factly that THIS is the way it is!-=-
He has a better grasp on the situation than the parents do, it seems.
-=- couldn't get him to see that he can't hit his siblings-=-
Blah blah blah; you were wrong. He *can* hit them. So "can't hit"
doesn't make sense to him.
Clarify your own thinking so you can be clear in your statements.
What did you mean by "can't hit"?
Don't explain it to us, explain it to yourself. Anytime someone can't
rephrase something it might mean they are using words they haven't
come up with themselves.
He's crowded and he's unhappy. Find ways to give him space and peace.
http://sandradodd.com/screwitup
That's a list a bunch of us built to illustrate that to decide the
right things to do, it can help to catalog the wrong things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hit his
siblings. He insists that if they do this or that then he WILL hit
them. He
tells me matter-o-factly that THIS is the way it is!-=-
He has a better grasp on the situation than the parents do, it seems.
-=- couldn't get him to see that he can't hit his siblings-=-
Blah blah blah; you were wrong. He *can* hit them. So "can't hit"
doesn't make sense to him.
Clarify your own thinking so you can be clear in your statements.
What did you mean by "can't hit"?
Don't explain it to us, explain it to yourself. Anytime someone can't
rephrase something it might mean they are using words they haven't
come up with themselves.
He's crowded and he's unhappy. Find ways to give him space and peace.
http://sandradodd.com/screwitup
That's a list a bunch of us built to illustrate that to decide the
right things to do, it can help to catalog the wrong things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
"I may very well be misreading the situation, but could
your child be crying out for your attention, in his
own way?"
When he is acting out like this, it is very helpful for me to take him and
do something alone with him. a movie, read a book, etc BUT his good mood
only lasts as long as the activity. If I read 4 chapters of Harry Potter for
instance he will demand to know why I won't read more and maybe throw the
book across the room and we are back where we started.
-----------------------
You have your answer right there. Your homeschooling experiment failed because he was only schooled at home and not engaged by being at home or out in the world with his family. And you are continuing to do the same thing with him in school. He is forced to find his own entertainment and when you do read with him, engage with him, if he isn't happy with what you give you get irritated that he isn't grateful.
What if when he wants more engagement you give it to him? If your voice is gone after 4 chapters of Harry Potter offer to do something else with him. Don't withdraw from activities with him. Keep going. It sounds like your son is so very needy and it will take a lot of work from you and your husband to help him to fill the void that so much figuring out what to do on his own has left. He is an 8 year old boy who needs your company and your time to be able to negotiate his world.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
your child be crying out for your attention, in his
own way?"
When he is acting out like this, it is very helpful for me to take him and
do something alone with him. a movie, read a book, etc BUT his good mood
only lasts as long as the activity. If I read 4 chapters of Harry Potter for
instance he will demand to know why I won't read more and maybe throw the
book across the room and we are back where we started.
-----------------------
You have your answer right there. Your homeschooling experiment failed because he was only schooled at home and not engaged by being at home or out in the world with his family. And you are continuing to do the same thing with him in school. He is forced to find his own entertainment and when you do read with him, engage with him, if he isn't happy with what you give you get irritated that he isn't grateful.
What if when he wants more engagement you give it to him? If your voice is gone after 4 chapters of Harry Potter offer to do something else with him. Don't withdraw from activities with him. Keep going. It sounds like your son is so very needy and it will take a lot of work from you and your husband to help him to fill the void that so much figuring out what to do on his own has left. He is an 8 year old boy who needs your company and your time to be able to negotiate his world.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/13/2009 4:03 PM, Tiffany wrote:
he feels neglected and like everyone there thinks there is something
wrong with him and like he can't do anything right.
You have unrealistic expectations - probably based on observing other
families and thinking yours "should" be able to be like them. You
probably have thoughts like, "He's 8 years old; he SHOULD be able to
....." fill in the blank with whatever it is he doesn't do that you
think he should.
It will be hard for you to turn this around, but you're well on the way
to having truly severe and dangerous issues when he's older and the
effort it will take to turn this around now is far far far less than the
heartache and pain you're setting yourself up for in maybe as little as
5 years in the future. Entering the teen years with these dynamics in
place is a recipe for disaster. If you think it is hard now, imagine it
with sex, drugs and alcohol, shoplifting, and so on, added to the mix.
You CAN turn it around, but it will be entirely dependent on whether or
not you and your husband can completely change your attitudes toward
him. He desperately needs you to be on his side, not facing off with him
as his adversary. This is going to be very difficult for you because you
don't really know how to do it. You picked up on the idea of not having
limits, of providing him with the things he wants, but you haven't
grasped, at all, the idea of being his supporter and facilitator.
He desperately needs you to see him and treat him as a wonderful person
whom you absolutely adore. Not tolerate. Not love in spite of his
behaviors. He needs you to see THROUGH the behaviors to his inner core.
Only you will ever care enough to do that for him.
If you get to that point, you will see all his behaviors for what they
really are and you can respond to them appropriately.
WHEN he feels you are on his side, things will be very different.
The way things are now, if you tell him, "You're being too loud," he's
likely to get louder - screaming, "I can be as loud as I want," or
something like that.
If he feels you are on his side, you can tell him, "You're being too
loud," and he's likely to say, "Oh, sorry, thanks for reminding me."
Seriously. I know it is hard for you to imagine it, but it is entirely
about parental attitude.
Because things are already bad between you, you'll have to set up the
environment for as much success as possible.
He should NOT be sharing a room with a younger sibling, for example.
But, thinking about that, are you tempted to say to him, "You can't be
trusted to get along with your siblings, so now life is much more
difficult because we have to find a way to divide up the rooms just to
give you your own room which is a big pain for the rest of us." How
about, instead, "As the oldest, we think it is important for you to have
your own safe space where your things are private and secure. You are
important to us and we are totally willing to do what it takes to help
you be happy at home."
Also, when is the last time you snuggled up to watch tv with him? When
did you last go out on your bike and ride around with him?
I have three kids, same age separation as yours. I was the oldest of
three kids with the same age separation, too. I KNOW what it means for
the oldest to have their parents totally distracted by younger siblings.
I think you should make a list of his most wonderful characteristics -
what is lovable, enjoyable, interesting, fun, etc., about him. Make as
long a list, as detailed a list, as you can. Add to it as often as you
can. Put it where you'll see it a lot. It must be honest. TELL him what
you like about him in very concrete terms.
Here is a little trick - put 10 rubber bands or hair bands loosely
around one wrist. Your goal is to move all those hair bands to the other
wrist. Every time you do something that brings you closer to your son, a
"relationship-building" thing, you move one to the other wrist. Every
time you do anything that would feel to him like breaking down of your
relationship, move the band back.
This will help you learn to speak far more kindly and understandingly to
him. It will help you overlook all but the most egregious behaviors. It
will support YOU in looking for mutually agreeable solutions, rather
than assuming his wants are unreasonable.
Think about the example I gave above, of a parent telling a child he is
being too loud. How would your child FEEL if you told him, "You're being
too loud?" What thoughts would go through his head? Stop for a minute
and think about that - how your son would react and what his thinking,
inside his own head, would be. Go deeper - not just to "I WANT to be
loud and I can be and you can't stop me," but to what he might be
thinking about you at that moment.
Your goal is that, eventually, the thoughts going through his head will
be, "Glad mom is there to help me out when I forget how to behave." You
will NEVER get to that point, though, until he feels absolutely sure
that you are WITH him, not against him. Make THAT your top priority - it
might take a long time, this isn't a quick fix, but very very well worth
it. Notice the change ALL has to happen in you, you are not trying to
change him. He will change, but you can't make him change, you can only
change your own behavior and wait for him to change himself.
-pam
> It is the ideas asHaving read the rest of your post, I think he is unhappy at home because
> it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
> school age kids are in public school, their choice. My son (almost 9) did
> come home for about 7 months but found being home "too boring" and went back
> to school.
>
he feels neglected and like everyone there thinks there is something
wrong with him and like he can't do anything right.
You have unrealistic expectations - probably based on observing other
families and thinking yours "should" be able to be like them. You
probably have thoughts like, "He's 8 years old; he SHOULD be able to
....." fill in the blank with whatever it is he doesn't do that you
think he should.
It will be hard for you to turn this around, but you're well on the way
to having truly severe and dangerous issues when he's older and the
effort it will take to turn this around now is far far far less than the
heartache and pain you're setting yourself up for in maybe as little as
5 years in the future. Entering the teen years with these dynamics in
place is a recipe for disaster. If you think it is hard now, imagine it
with sex, drugs and alcohol, shoplifting, and so on, added to the mix.
You CAN turn it around, but it will be entirely dependent on whether or
not you and your husband can completely change your attitudes toward
him. He desperately needs you to be on his side, not facing off with him
as his adversary. This is going to be very difficult for you because you
don't really know how to do it. You picked up on the idea of not having
limits, of providing him with the things he wants, but you haven't
grasped, at all, the idea of being his supporter and facilitator.
He desperately needs you to see him and treat him as a wonderful person
whom you absolutely adore. Not tolerate. Not love in spite of his
behaviors. He needs you to see THROUGH the behaviors to his inner core.
Only you will ever care enough to do that for him.
If you get to that point, you will see all his behaviors for what they
really are and you can respond to them appropriately.
WHEN he feels you are on his side, things will be very different.
The way things are now, if you tell him, "You're being too loud," he's
likely to get louder - screaming, "I can be as loud as I want," or
something like that.
If he feels you are on his side, you can tell him, "You're being too
loud," and he's likely to say, "Oh, sorry, thanks for reminding me."
Seriously. I know it is hard for you to imagine it, but it is entirely
about parental attitude.
Because things are already bad between you, you'll have to set up the
environment for as much success as possible.
He should NOT be sharing a room with a younger sibling, for example.
But, thinking about that, are you tempted to say to him, "You can't be
trusted to get along with your siblings, so now life is much more
difficult because we have to find a way to divide up the rooms just to
give you your own room which is a big pain for the rest of us." How
about, instead, "As the oldest, we think it is important for you to have
your own safe space where your things are private and secure. You are
important to us and we are totally willing to do what it takes to help
you be happy at home."
Also, when is the last time you snuggled up to watch tv with him? When
did you last go out on your bike and ride around with him?
I have three kids, same age separation as yours. I was the oldest of
three kids with the same age separation, too. I KNOW what it means for
the oldest to have their parents totally distracted by younger siblings.
I think you should make a list of his most wonderful characteristics -
what is lovable, enjoyable, interesting, fun, etc., about him. Make as
long a list, as detailed a list, as you can. Add to it as often as you
can. Put it where you'll see it a lot. It must be honest. TELL him what
you like about him in very concrete terms.
Here is a little trick - put 10 rubber bands or hair bands loosely
around one wrist. Your goal is to move all those hair bands to the other
wrist. Every time you do something that brings you closer to your son, a
"relationship-building" thing, you move one to the other wrist. Every
time you do anything that would feel to him like breaking down of your
relationship, move the band back.
This will help you learn to speak far more kindly and understandingly to
him. It will help you overlook all but the most egregious behaviors. It
will support YOU in looking for mutually agreeable solutions, rather
than assuming his wants are unreasonable.
Think about the example I gave above, of a parent telling a child he is
being too loud. How would your child FEEL if you told him, "You're being
too loud?" What thoughts would go through his head? Stop for a minute
and think about that - how your son would react and what his thinking,
inside his own head, would be. Go deeper - not just to "I WANT to be
loud and I can be and you can't stop me," but to what he might be
thinking about you at that moment.
Your goal is that, eventually, the thoughts going through his head will
be, "Glad mom is there to help me out when I forget how to behave." You
will NEVER get to that point, though, until he feels absolutely sure
that you are WITH him, not against him. Make THAT your top priority - it
might take a long time, this isn't a quick fix, but very very well worth
it. Notice the change ALL has to happen in you, you are not trying to
change him. He will change, but you can't make him change, you can only
change your own behavior and wait for him to change himself.
-pam
Lyla Wolfenstein
i totally agree with everything pam wrote - from personal experience - but:
i don't know that you can get there in time if he is still in school. maybe pam meant to say that, not sure.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
i don't know that you can get there in time if he is still in school. maybe pam meant to say that, not sure.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], "Tiffany" <diapermama@...> wrote:
you. Can you find a way to give him that, rearrange
your work schedule or something?
I like Sandra's graph about how much time to spend
with kids: http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
Of course, every kid is different. I have three who got
no loving attention for many years (while living in orphanages)
and they needed 'round the clock attention for several years
after they joined the family... just as a newborn coming into
the family would! My point being, don't take the chart
literally: you will know when your child has enough of you
attention; he'll let you know. Meanwhile, how can you give
him the loving attention he needs? (It's a question for
you to figure out; I don't need the answer! ;-)
Kelly Sturman
> his good mood only lasts as long as the activity.So, he needs lots and lots of loving attention from
you. Can you find a way to give him that, rearrange
your work schedule or something?
I like Sandra's graph about how much time to spend
with kids: http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
Of course, every kid is different. I have three who got
no loving attention for many years (while living in orphanages)
and they needed 'round the clock attention for several years
after they joined the family... just as a newborn coming into
the family would! My point being, don't take the chart
literally: you will know when your child has enough of you
attention; he'll let you know. Meanwhile, how can you give
him the loving attention he needs? (It's a question for
you to figure out; I don't need the answer! ;-)
Kelly Sturman
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/14/2009 7:59 AM, Tiffany wrote:
If you don't find a way to give him more, you'll suffer even more in the
not-too-distant future. I'm giving you dire warnings here - I've seen
it. I'm not psychic, but I'm certain of what I'm saying to you, based on
years of observation.
Can you get a mother's helper to take care of the younger kids several
afternoons per week while you take him out, away from them, for some fun
with you?
You can make the time now, or you'll be spending a lot of time in the
principal's office, in court, in therapists offices, etc., in the future.
Some kids need a LOT of personal attention - yours is crying out for it
in every way he can. You say he can never get enough - but I think
you're lacking in imagination. Figure out how to give him more. Take
EVERY opportunity. Little moments and long hours - both are needed. Make
direct eye contact and physical contact every chance you get. Smile a
lot. Ruffle his hair. Take him little treats, wherever he is. Spend a
moment just smiling and being there in case he might have something to say.
You can do this - you read this list and knew what we were going to say
and you asked us to say it to you.
-pam
> When he is acting out like this, it is very helpful for me to take him andHe needs more.
> do something alone with him. a movie, read a book, etc BUT his good mood
> only lasts as long as the activity. If I read 4 chapters of Harry Potter for
> instance he will demand to know why I won't read more and maybe throw the
> book across the room and we are back where we started.
>
If you don't find a way to give him more, you'll suffer even more in the
not-too-distant future. I'm giving you dire warnings here - I've seen
it. I'm not psychic, but I'm certain of what I'm saying to you, based on
years of observation.
Can you get a mother's helper to take care of the younger kids several
afternoons per week while you take him out, away from them, for some fun
with you?
You can make the time now, or you'll be spending a lot of time in the
principal's office, in court, in therapists offices, etc., in the future.
Some kids need a LOT of personal attention - yours is crying out for it
in every way he can. You say he can never get enough - but I think
you're lacking in imagination. Figure out how to give him more. Take
EVERY opportunity. Little moments and long hours - both are needed. Make
direct eye contact and physical contact every chance you get. Smile a
lot. Ruffle his hair. Take him little treats, wherever he is. Spend a
moment just smiling and being there in case he might have something to say.
You can do this - you read this list and knew what we were going to say
and you asked us to say it to you.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=- Since I work from home I could not spend my days
making sure he was entertained or taking him to places where he could
socialize.-=-
Then school is best for him, if you can't figure ways to entertain him
and take him places.
It seems you think that unschooling is "entertaining" our kids.
Learning is as real as rain. "...spend my days making sure he was
entertained" sounds very resentful to me.
Is he adopted? Is he a stepchild? Is he like either of his parents,
or some of his uncles or aunts or grandparents?
(This isn't hypothetical, this is a real question.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
making sure he was entertained or taking him to places where he could
socialize.-=-
Then school is best for him, if you can't figure ways to entertain him
and take him places.
It seems you think that unschooling is "entertaining" our kids.
Learning is as real as rain. "...spend my days making sure he was
entertained" sounds very resentful to me.
Is he adopted? Is he a stepchild? Is he like either of his parents,
or some of his uncles or aunts or grandparents?
(This isn't hypothetical, this is a real question.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/14/2009 10:40 AM, Schuyler wrote:
steps a lot. He has his bike beside him; sometimes rides up and down the
street or in circles in front of his house.
When my 18 year old was jogging, he askedif he could ride his bike
alongside her. Here is how it goes: HE talks, mostly, she just makes
little sounds like, "Oh?," or "Yeah?" He is desperate for someone to
talk to - he says he has no friends because he talks too much. She runs
for about 45 minutes and he talks for a lot of that, but by the end he
starts asking her questions and getting her to talk, too. At the end, he
asks, "Can I go with you again?" She says, "Sure." He BEAMS with happiness.
It is so interesting how he finally, after about 30 minutes, he started
to be interested in her, not just in talking about himself.
-pam
> He is an 8 year old boy who needs your company and your time to be able to negotiate his world.There is an 8 year old boy down the street from us. He sits on his porch
>
steps a lot. He has his bike beside him; sometimes rides up and down the
street or in circles in front of his house.
When my 18 year old was jogging, he askedif he could ride his bike
alongside her. Here is how it goes: HE talks, mostly, she just makes
little sounds like, "Oh?," or "Yeah?" He is desperate for someone to
talk to - he says he has no friends because he talks too much. She runs
for about 45 minutes and he talks for a lot of that, but by the end he
starts asking her questions and getting her to talk, too. At the end, he
asks, "Can I go with you again?" She says, "Sure." He BEAMS with happiness.
It is so interesting how he finally, after about 30 minutes, he started
to be interested in her, not just in talking about himself.
-pam
Lyla Wolfenstein
-=- Since I work from home I could not spend my days
making sure he was entertained or taking him to places where he could
socialize.-=-
Then school is best for him, if you can't figure ways to entertain him
and take him places.
i want to URGE you, as did pam, to take this seriously. take him out of school. figure out a different time/way to earn money, if it's *essential* that you earn money - or figure out a way for it to not be essential, if at all possible. switch off with your husband on the weekends, or whenever he's home (still unclear about that) doing things ALONE with your 8 year old. find things that facinate and inspire him and do more of that. find a mother's helper for your younger kids. take your son camping - just you and him or your husband and him.
i have a nearly 11 year old, who, at 9.5, needed me to make huge changes to our lives. i wish i had done it earlier, but if i had waited any longer, i am not sure the issues we were facing would have been reversable. some days i am still not sure! so - please take this seriously. there are always options - creative ways to transform a family and how it functions, and to do so without an attitude of self sacrifice or resentment.
warmly, Lyla
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making sure he was entertained or taking him to places where he could
socialize.-=-
Then school is best for him, if you can't figure ways to entertain him
and take him places.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>except he's being bullied at school and the negative messages about himself are being ground in deeper.
i want to URGE you, as did pam, to take this seriously. take him out of school. figure out a different time/way to earn money, if it's *essential* that you earn money - or figure out a way for it to not be essential, if at all possible. switch off with your husband on the weekends, or whenever he's home (still unclear about that) doing things ALONE with your 8 year old. find things that facinate and inspire him and do more of that. find a mother's helper for your younger kids. take your son camping - just you and him or your husband and him.
i have a nearly 11 year old, who, at 9.5, needed me to make huge changes to our lives. i wish i had done it earlier, but if i had waited any longer, i am not sure the issues we were facing would have been reversable. some days i am still not sure! so - please take this seriously. there are always options - creative ways to transform a family and how it functions, and to do so without an attitude of self sacrifice or resentment.
warmly, Lyla
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Tiffany
Well, what I meant by entertained was that I could not take him on
fieldtrips every day or have him YMCA classes, and the like. Basically his
ideal was to work on learning interests in the mornings together.. ie
reading, researching online, etc. Then in the afternoons he wanted me to
take him places like the park, the pool, sledding, sports or classes, movie
theatre, etc. He wanted organized activities all day long and wanted me to
orchestrate it. I could of course manage to take him to some places 1-2
times a week but could not live up to his expectations most days. He wanted
all the perks and planned activities of school without actually going. I did
resent not being able to meet his expectations.
He is my biological child and I can't think of any relative that he really
resembles. He has always been very different actually.
Tiffany
* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 1:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A Newbie with a Big Problem
-=- Since I work from home I could not spend my days
making sure he was entertained or taking him to places where he could
socialize.-=-
Then school is best for him, if you can't figure ways to entertain him
and take him places.
It seems you think that unschooling is "entertaining" our kids.
Learning is as real as rain. "...spend my days making sure he was
entertained" sounds very resentful to me.
Is he adopted? Is he a stepchild? Is he like either of his parents,
or some of his uncles or aunts or grandparents?
(This isn't hypothetical, this is a real question.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fieldtrips every day or have him YMCA classes, and the like. Basically his
ideal was to work on learning interests in the mornings together.. ie
reading, researching online, etc. Then in the afternoons he wanted me to
take him places like the park, the pool, sledding, sports or classes, movie
theatre, etc. He wanted organized activities all day long and wanted me to
orchestrate it. I could of course manage to take him to some places 1-2
times a week but could not live up to his expectations most days. He wanted
all the perks and planned activities of school without actually going. I did
resent not being able to meet his expectations.
He is my biological child and I can't think of any relative that he really
resembles. He has always been very different actually.
Tiffany
* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 1:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A Newbie with a Big Problem
-=- Since I work from home I could not spend my days
making sure he was entertained or taking him to places where he could
socialize.-=-
Then school is best for him, if you can't figure ways to entertain him
and take him places.
It seems you think that unschooling is "entertaining" our kids.
Learning is as real as rain. "...spend my days making sure he was
entertained" sounds very resentful to me.
Is he adopted? Is he a stepchild? Is he like either of his parents,
or some of his uncles or aunts or grandparents?
(This isn't hypothetical, this is a real question.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tiffany
Lyla thanks. Your earlier post was amazing and did not hurt my feelings at
all. I did cry reading most of it but just because I see how much MORE I
need to do for him and feel helpless as to how to do it. He needs for time
and attention than all other family members combined. It has always been so.
Most days it feels like I am running in circles trying to find ways to meet
everyone's needs.
Tijja
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Lyla Wolfenstein
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A Newbie with a Big Proble
except he's being bullied at school and the negative messages about himself
are being ground in deeper.
i want to URGE you, as did pam, to take this seriously. take him out of
school. figure out a different time/way to earn money, if it's *essential*
that you earn money - or figure out a way for it to not be essential, if at
all possible. switch off with your husband on the weekends, or whenever he's
home (still unclear about that) doing things ALONE with your 8 year old.
find things that facinate and inspire him and do more of that. find a
mother's helper for your younger kids. take your son camping - just you and
him or your husband and him.
i have a nearly 11 year old, who, at 9.5, needed me to make huge changes to
our lives. i wish i had done it earlier, but if i had waited any longer, i
am not sure the issues we were facing would have been reversable. some days
i am still not sure! so - please take this seriously. there are always
options - creative ways to transform a family and how it functions, and to
do so without an attitude of self sacrifice or resentment.
warmly, Lyla
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
all. I did cry reading most of it but just because I see how much MORE I
need to do for him and feel helpless as to how to do it. He needs for time
and attention than all other family members combined. It has always been so.
Most days it feels like I am running in circles trying to find ways to meet
everyone's needs.
Tijja
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Lyla Wolfenstein
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A Newbie with a Big Proble
except he's being bullied at school and the negative messages about himself
are being ground in deeper.
i want to URGE you, as did pam, to take this seriously. take him out of
school. figure out a different time/way to earn money, if it's *essential*
that you earn money - or figure out a way for it to not be essential, if at
all possible. switch off with your husband on the weekends, or whenever he's
home (still unclear about that) doing things ALONE with your 8 year old.
find things that facinate and inspire him and do more of that. find a
mother's helper for your younger kids. take your son camping - just you and
him or your husband and him.
i have a nearly 11 year old, who, at 9.5, needed me to make huge changes to
our lives. i wish i had done it earlier, but if i had waited any longer, i
am not sure the issues we were facing would have been reversable. some days
i am still not sure! so - please take this seriously. there are always
options - creative ways to transform a family and how it functions, and to
do so without an attitude of self sacrifice or resentment.
warmly, Lyla
Recent Activity
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Connect with others.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Basically his
ideal was to work on learning interests in the mornings together.. ie
reading, researching online, etc. Then in the afternoons he wanted me to
take him places like the park, the pool, sledding, sports or classes,
movie
theatre, etc. He wanted organized activities all day long and wanted
me to
orchestrate it. I could of course manage to take him to some places 1-2
times a week but could not live up to his expectations most days. -=-
So at the age of seven he was left to design his own unschooling plan?
And you let him choose and then said no, can't do it?
It was probably more than boredom, if so, that made him go back to
school.
-=-He is my biological child and I can't think of any relative that he
really
resembles. He has always been very different actually.-=-
A clone? Or yours and your husband's? Or is your husband a stepfather?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ideal was to work on learning interests in the mornings together.. ie
reading, researching online, etc. Then in the afternoons he wanted me to
take him places like the park, the pool, sledding, sports or classes,
movie
theatre, etc. He wanted organized activities all day long and wanted
me to
orchestrate it. I could of course manage to take him to some places 1-2
times a week but could not live up to his expectations most days. -=-
So at the age of seven he was left to design his own unschooling plan?
And you let him choose and then said no, can't do it?
It was probably more than boredom, if so, that made him go back to
school.
-=-He is my biological child and I can't think of any relative that he
really
resembles. He has always been very different actually.-=-
A clone? Or yours and your husband's? Or is your husband a stepfather?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I "could" have offered to buy him a puzzle but then I would have
inevitably
run into the situation at the store where the other two kids also "want"
something since he is getting something and I just spent a fortune to
appease his demands-=-
#1, don't put "could" and "want" in quotation marks as though they're
not real, or you're being sarcastic or something.
Every thrift store in the world has jigsaw puzzles. You could put a
note on freecycle asking for jigsaw puzzles.
Instead of looking for solutions, you seem to have it all figured out
so that nothing is your fault, it's the fault of those kids who
"inevitably" "want" something.
-=-My world seems to revolve around him and yet he is still unhappy
with everything I do. -=-
That sounds mean and harsh. "My world seems to revolve around him" is
an idiom used to express resentment, usually. And he's not unhappy
with EVERYthing you do; you've already told us some things he
enjoys. Maybe looking at these pages would help:
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
-=- The puzzle thing was his acting out about the way his
grandmother buys presents for him and his sister that can only be used
at
her home. She wants them to have things to do when they visit her and
she
doesn't allow them to take the stuff home.-=-
-=-The puzzle thing was his acting out-=-
"Acting out" what? Acting out his feelings? Frustration? If you
haven't read the links above by the time you read this, please do read
them and then read this response again.
-=-. He feels that if it is his he
should be able to have it without conditions but his grandmother won't
budge
on it so it is something he needs to accept. -=-
You could ask her not to tell them they're "presents." If it's HER
puzzle, she can say leave it here. If she gives it to him, I'm on his
side; he should be able to take it home.
So he's not only at home where he's thwarted, you take him to be
thwarted at his grandmother's house. He doesn't "need" to accept
that. You want him to accept it, but why? Talk to the grandmother.
If she won't budge, visit without him, maybe.
-=- I try not to dwell on it so he
ends up having anger towards his grandmother but I cannot afford to buy
duplicates of everything so he has one at her house and one at mine.-=-
What do you mean by "I try not to dwell on it"?
Do you mean you don't want to consider between times what could be
changed?
Do you mean you don't want to discuss it with your mom or with him?
-=-I guess it was important to me to establish that I did not do was
accused of.-=-
You want to argue with an eight year old and be right? IF you think
of yourselves as partners, you're the one with more experience and
more responsibility.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
inevitably
run into the situation at the store where the other two kids also "want"
something since he is getting something and I just spent a fortune to
appease his demands-=-
#1, don't put "could" and "want" in quotation marks as though they're
not real, or you're being sarcastic or something.
Every thrift store in the world has jigsaw puzzles. You could put a
note on freecycle asking for jigsaw puzzles.
Instead of looking for solutions, you seem to have it all figured out
so that nothing is your fault, it's the fault of those kids who
"inevitably" "want" something.
-=-My world seems to revolve around him and yet he is still unhappy
with everything I do. -=-
That sounds mean and harsh. "My world seems to revolve around him" is
an idiom used to express resentment, usually. And he's not unhappy
with EVERYthing you do; you've already told us some things he
enjoys. Maybe looking at these pages would help:
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
-=- The puzzle thing was his acting out about the way his
grandmother buys presents for him and his sister that can only be used
at
her home. She wants them to have things to do when they visit her and
she
doesn't allow them to take the stuff home.-=-
-=-The puzzle thing was his acting out-=-
"Acting out" what? Acting out his feelings? Frustration? If you
haven't read the links above by the time you read this, please do read
them and then read this response again.
-=-. He feels that if it is his he
should be able to have it without conditions but his grandmother won't
budge
on it so it is something he needs to accept. -=-
You could ask her not to tell them they're "presents." If it's HER
puzzle, she can say leave it here. If she gives it to him, I'm on his
side; he should be able to take it home.
So he's not only at home where he's thwarted, you take him to be
thwarted at his grandmother's house. He doesn't "need" to accept
that. You want him to accept it, but why? Talk to the grandmother.
If she won't budge, visit without him, maybe.
-=- I try not to dwell on it so he
ends up having anger towards his grandmother but I cannot afford to buy
duplicates of everything so he has one at her house and one at mine.-=-
What do you mean by "I try not to dwell on it"?
Do you mean you don't want to consider between times what could be
changed?
Do you mean you don't want to discuss it with your mom or with him?
-=-I guess it was important to me to establish that I did not do was
accused of.-=-
You want to argue with an eight year old and be right? IF you think
of yourselves as partners, you're the one with more experience and
more responsibility.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-. I am not going to classify myself as
a RU... just a mom who sees many benefits of adding unschooling
philosophy
to our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting. It is the
ideas as
it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
school age kids are in public school, their choice.-=-
-=-He was pretty much raised in a very attached home. I breastfed, he
co-slept
from the beginning, he was carried every waking moment or he would
scream,
and he has been raised with very few arbitrary rules. I did have to work
outside the home until he was almost 4 though. :-( -=-
Until he was almost four, starting when?
Who was carrying him every waking moment when you were at work?
-=It has been one of those days when I am so
discouraged I just want to roll up into a ball and stay like that for
days.-=-
Are you clinically depressed, maybe? (You don't need to tell us, but
you might want to talk to a doctor or maybe a psychologist who does
cognitive therapy, or both if it seems to be depression and if it's
getting worse.)
-=-
I also want to note that he has TONS of freedom. He has no bedtime,
chores,
or even any rules beyond don't hurt anyone or their property. He
spends most
of his days out on his bike riding around and playing. by himself. I
only
ask that he not go too far away and make me have to mount a search
party to
find him. and he usually abides that. In his room he has a 50 inch TV,
cable, two video game consoles, a Nintendo DS, and hundreds of DVDs.
He has
no limits on any of it. time or content. So our struggles have nothing
to do
with his rebelling against all our unfair rules because there really
aren't
any. If anything he is rebelling against the only real limitations we
have
which are in regards to people and property.
-=-
He's not doing so well with the people and property rules, though,
according to some of your stories.
How can a child who's enrolled in school function with no bedtime or
rules? That doesn't seem to be a good combination.
To talk about the "many benefits of adding unschooling philosophy to
our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting" while kids are in
school and the mom can't spend time finding cool stuff for them to do
or taking them places seems to me a classic case of carts before
horses, in two ways. You're telling us you have the cart but that
it's not going anywhere, and your son is furious because of things
around him (his brother, the puzzle "present," neighbors). If
you're not even going to have a horse at all, why have the cart? If
your kids want to go to school, then be a good mother of kids in
school. If you have no choice but to work every day, then do it well
and fully. There IS no unschooling if the kids aren't home and you
weren't able to create a rich unschooling environment when they were
home.
If you do want to unschool, there's probably not a better place than
this to get ideas, but if you don't want to unschool, I don't know
what the list can do for you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a RU... just a mom who sees many benefits of adding unschooling
philosophy
to our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting. It is the
ideas as
it pertains to the whole family dynamic that appeal to me since my two
school age kids are in public school, their choice.-=-
-=-He was pretty much raised in a very attached home. I breastfed, he
co-slept
from the beginning, he was carried every waking moment or he would
scream,
and he has been raised with very few arbitrary rules. I did have to work
outside the home until he was almost 4 though. :-( -=-
Until he was almost four, starting when?
Who was carrying him every waking moment when you were at work?
-=It has been one of those days when I am so
discouraged I just want to roll up into a ball and stay like that for
days.-=-
Are you clinically depressed, maybe? (You don't need to tell us, but
you might want to talk to a doctor or maybe a psychologist who does
cognitive therapy, or both if it seems to be depression and if it's
getting worse.)
-=-
I also want to note that he has TONS of freedom. He has no bedtime,
chores,
or even any rules beyond don't hurt anyone or their property. He
spends most
of his days out on his bike riding around and playing. by himself. I
only
ask that he not go too far away and make me have to mount a search
party to
find him. and he usually abides that. In his room he has a 50 inch TV,
cable, two video game consoles, a Nintendo DS, and hundreds of DVDs.
He has
no limits on any of it. time or content. So our struggles have nothing
to do
with his rebelling against all our unfair rules because there really
aren't
any. If anything he is rebelling against the only real limitations we
have
which are in regards to people and property.
-=-
He's not doing so well with the people and property rules, though,
according to some of your stories.
How can a child who's enrolled in school function with no bedtime or
rules? That doesn't seem to be a good combination.
To talk about the "many benefits of adding unschooling philosophy to
our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting" while kids are in
school and the mom can't spend time finding cool stuff for them to do
or taking them places seems to me a classic case of carts before
horses, in two ways. You're telling us you have the cart but that
it's not going anywhere, and your son is furious because of things
around him (his brother, the puzzle "present," neighbors). If
you're not even going to have a horse at all, why have the cart? If
your kids want to go to school, then be a good mother of kids in
school. If you have no choice but to work every day, then do it well
and fully. There IS no unschooling if the kids aren't home and you
weren't able to create a rich unschooling environment when they were
home.
If you do want to unschool, there's probably not a better place than
this to get ideas, but if you don't want to unschool, I don't know
what the list can do for you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tiffany
So unschooling is all or nothing? I wasn't aware there were rules. Ironic
no?
Thanks all for your great ideas Alan, Pam, Kelly, and Lyla. I think the
issue has much to do with quality time and letting my son know we love and
value him as he is.. and I will have to work out a plan with my husband to
make sure those needs are being met consistently.
Since I really don't have a choice about making the leap to full unschooling
unless I also accept living in my car perhaps I will just stick to
observation only on this list. Sorry to bother you Sandra.
Tijja
* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_____
To talk about the "many benefits of adding unschooling philosophy to
our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting" while kids are in
school and the mom can't spend time finding cool stuff for them to do
or taking them places seems to me a classic case of carts before
horses, in two ways. You're telling us you have the cart but that
it's not going anywhere, and your son is furious because of things
around him (his brother, the puzzle "present," neighbors). If
you're not even going to have a horse at all, why have the cart? If
your kids want to go to school, then be a good mother of kids in
school. If you have no choice but to work every day, then do it well
and fully. There IS no unschooling if the kids aren't home and you
weren't able to create a rich unschooling environment when they were
home.
If you do want to unschool, there's probably not a better place than
this to get ideas, but if you don't want to unschool, I don't know
what the list can do for you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
no?
Thanks all for your great ideas Alan, Pam, Kelly, and Lyla. I think the
issue has much to do with quality time and letting my son know we love and
value him as he is.. and I will have to work out a plan with my husband to
make sure those needs are being met consistently.
Since I really don't have a choice about making the leap to full unschooling
unless I also accept living in my car perhaps I will just stick to
observation only on this list. Sorry to bother you Sandra.
Tijja
* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_____
To talk about the "many benefits of adding unschooling philosophy to
our current ideas on attached, respectful parenting" while kids are in
school and the mom can't spend time finding cool stuff for them to do
or taking them places seems to me a classic case of carts before
horses, in two ways. You're telling us you have the cart but that
it's not going anywhere, and your son is furious because of things
around him (his brother, the puzzle "present," neighbors). If
you're not even going to have a horse at all, why have the cart? If
your kids want to go to school, then be a good mother of kids in
school. If you have no choice but to work every day, then do it well
and fully. There IS no unschooling if the kids aren't home and you
weren't able to create a rich unschooling environment when they were
home.
If you do want to unschool, there's probably not a better place than
this to get ideas, but if you don't want to unschool, I don't know
what the list can do for you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-= Of course we feed them, but the right information about childrens
actual nutritional needs is not easy to come by. The big food industri
and certinely the pharmaceutical industry have no interest in our
childrens wellbeeing, they care about profit.-=-
I let that post through before I noticed it had a very long other post
appended to it.
Please only quote what's necessary to make your own comments make sense.
I don't mind people reminding other people to pay attention to whether
kids are getting protein or not too many carbs or enough fruit or
whatever, but to go into scary and questionable political and
corporate conspiracy stuff is way outside the purpose and focus of
this list.
If anyone wants to name another list to which people can go to talk
about diet in that paranoid "there's a magic fix" way, that's fine,
but it's not good to discuss it here for this reason:
If children can't learn how foods affect them directly, they are being
denied a learning opportunity.
and
If mothers who are in "yeah, but' and "It's not my fault" mode can
think "Aha! I didn't do anything wrong, he's just allergic to wheat/
dairy/strawberries/dye/sugar/corn syrup/soy/MSG/peanuts/ so I'm a
great mom and he's a defective kid," then the family moves away from
unschooling principles and not toward them.
Changing one's parenting and improving the relationship with one's
child will help a mom provide better for her child in many ways.
Looking at things other than parenting and improving the relationship
with one's child risks continuing a pattern that can and should be
changed, even if the child ends up doing better on a different diet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
actual nutritional needs is not easy to come by. The big food industri
and certinely the pharmaceutical industry have no interest in our
childrens wellbeeing, they care about profit.-=-
I let that post through before I noticed it had a very long other post
appended to it.
Please only quote what's necessary to make your own comments make sense.
I don't mind people reminding other people to pay attention to whether
kids are getting protein or not too many carbs or enough fruit or
whatever, but to go into scary and questionable political and
corporate conspiracy stuff is way outside the purpose and focus of
this list.
If anyone wants to name another list to which people can go to talk
about diet in that paranoid "there's a magic fix" way, that's fine,
but it's not good to discuss it here for this reason:
If children can't learn how foods affect them directly, they are being
denied a learning opportunity.
and
If mothers who are in "yeah, but' and "It's not my fault" mode can
think "Aha! I didn't do anything wrong, he's just allergic to wheat/
dairy/strawberries/dye/sugar/corn syrup/soy/MSG/peanuts/ so I'm a
great mom and he's a defective kid," then the family moves away from
unschooling principles and not toward them.
Changing one's parenting and improving the relationship with one's
child will help a mom provide better for her child in many ways.
Looking at things other than parenting and improving the relationship
with one's child risks continuing a pattern that can and should be
changed, even if the child ends up doing better on a different diet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
>-=-Think of it like being pregnant, you either ARE or you're NOT, there's no
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Tiffany <diapermama@...> wrote:
>
> So unschooling is all or nothing? I wasn't aware there were rules. Ironic
> no?
"kinda preggers" ;)
And yeah, for those of us who have taken the leap of faith, we understand
there is no unschooling from the shore, you're either IN it or you're NOT.
> Thanks all for your great ideas Alan, Pam, Kelly, and Lyla. I think the-=-Please remember that YOU are the only mama he's got; YOU are still
> issue has much to do with quality time and letting my son know we love and
> value him as he is.. and I will have to work out a plan with my husband to
> make sure those needs are being met consistently.
responsible for valuing him, loving him, breathing through pushed buttons,
regardless of his father's or anyone else's actions.
> Since I really don't have a choice about making the leap to full-=-A firm belief in not having a choice will result in NO choices. A
> unschooling unless I also accept living in my car perhaps I will just stick
> to
> observation only on this list. Sorry to bother you Sandra.
>
willingness and commitment to looking at options to make unschooling
possible, that's where the choices live. As someone who lived for YEARS as
a happy & healthy unschooler, with two kids, a mere $40/mo above the poverty
level, as a single mama, I'd argue there are LOTS & LOTS & LOTS of choices
between working full time and homelessness. ONLY if you're willing to look
at them and value people over things.
Sandra's not the only one bothered, she's merely the vocal list owner.
There are many more of us who have yet to respond, who are still formulating
and pondering and wondering if there is any help for this little human in
his current situations. We'd love to help you see those choices you DO
have, we'd love to help you provide a home where your son is safe and valued
- an unschooling home. That's what we're about, it's what we're doing, it's
what we share.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-So unschooling is all or nothing? I wasn't aware there were rules.
Ironic no?-=-
In what way is it ironic?
The intro to this list is in two places:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
Unschooling is not all or nothing. That doesn't mean that anything in
the world is unschooling, and having a child prefer school because
home was boring is not unschooling.
We can help you unschool, but the list does not exist to make you feel
better about not unschooling.
Maybe you wanted support and not actual help.
http://sandradodd.com/support
-=-. I think the issue has much to do with quality time and letting my
son know we love and
value him as he is-=-
This is dishonest. You don't love and value your son as he is. You
can hardly write about him without using negatively judgmental words
and phrases. If he already doesn't have faith and trust in your
opinions or the hope of your support, "letting him know" something
that is belied by your words and attitude won't make things better.
YOU the parents truly need to change, if you want this situation to
get better. To get angry about suggestions that something is wrong
might be a clue to the problem. Do you get this angry when your son
suggests (by word or deed) that you could be doing something better?
Because your responses here don't seem self-reflective, but rather
seem to be a defensive bunch of "yeah but."
"Since I really don't have a choice about making the leap to full
unschooling
unless I also accept living in my car "
I'm guessing this means you didn't read the links.
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Here's another one:
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ironic no?-=-
In what way is it ironic?
The intro to this list is in two places:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
Unschooling is not all or nothing. That doesn't mean that anything in
the world is unschooling, and having a child prefer school because
home was boring is not unschooling.
We can help you unschool, but the list does not exist to make you feel
better about not unschooling.
Maybe you wanted support and not actual help.
http://sandradodd.com/support
-=-. I think the issue has much to do with quality time and letting my
son know we love and
value him as he is-=-
This is dishonest. You don't love and value your son as he is. You
can hardly write about him without using negatively judgmental words
and phrases. If he already doesn't have faith and trust in your
opinions or the hope of your support, "letting him know" something
that is belied by your words and attitude won't make things better.
YOU the parents truly need to change, if you want this situation to
get better. To get angry about suggestions that something is wrong
might be a clue to the problem. Do you get this angry when your son
suggests (by word or deed) that you could be doing something better?
Because your responses here don't seem self-reflective, but rather
seem to be a defensive bunch of "yeah but."
"Since I really don't have a choice about making the leap to full
unschooling
unless I also accept living in my car "
I'm guessing this means you didn't read the links.
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Here's another one:
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]