troubadour4me

My husband and I had a discussion this morning over our son(7yo.) not listening when you talk. I was telling my husband that i can hardly get a few words in before Lukas cuts me off. I can be talking about anything not only suggesting advice when he goes off with non-sense ramblings or a "I know mommy" statement and walks away.
My husband said this might be a defense by our son. I feel his lack of listening is hurting him socially. He doesn't know how to follow a train of thought or carry on a conversation. He will walk up to someone and say hi and have no interest in them....he will just start talking about a ds game or something on his mind. Not the basics of small talk.Lukas will talk all day but it's noise really. I think this is my fault because i haven't stressed to him following a conversation?
Like,when we are outside and he is in his pool,I might say:I've been thinking of taking you to see the new movie UP. Lukas:yeah,what if the big show(the wrestler)walked up in the yard? or he will say something else also off subject. While he is in the pool or anywhere,it's a constant stream of words,lines from movies,sounds,pieces of sayings and acting outs.
An incident that happened recently was my husband had him at a playground and a bunch of kids his age were playing touch football. Lukas ran over to them and was trying to get the ball away.They told him to stop but he wouldn't. One kid said to another that he's a big kid but acts like a little one. My husband said Lukas wouldn't listen and play right so they shunned him. Lukas walked away sad and my husband tried to explain to him that they were playing and the rules of the game but Lukas didn't want to listen to it and walked away from him.
I have tried changing my pitch,tone when speaking so i can finish. It doesn't work. Ya think i should have some structure here and how to go about it?

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 Not the basics of small talk.Lukas will talk all day but it's noise really.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I know lots of kids this age that sound like that but having said that what you wrote above bothers me.
My almost ( this month) 7 year old son can talk a lot about his games and games he wants to make.
If I am not really listening to him and ask questions to clarify things and understand him it can all sound like noise but it is NOT!
 DO you think maybe he has a harder time listening to others because no one really listens to HIM?


Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>>>He doesn't know how to follow a train of thought or carry on a
conversation.>>>

>>> Like,when we are outside and he is in his pool,I might say:I've been
thinking of taking you to see the new movie UP. Lukas:yeah,what if the
big show(the wrestler)walked up in the yard? or he will say something
else also off subject. While he is in the pool or anywhere,it's a
constant stream of words,lines from movies,sounds,pieces of sayings and
acting outs.>>>

OR, maybe you don't know how to follow his train of thought and carry on
a conversation with him, with his thoughts. Margaux will sometimes
chatter all day long. She hears everything, and if pressed, will let
you know that, yes, she's got it.

Sometimes what comes out of her mouth is several thoughts past what
she's already heard and thought about and if I pay really close
attention I can connect the missing dots to see how her train of thought
got to that place. In these instances I will say what I think she was
thinking and ask if that's where the thought came from. By verbalizing
it for her, she can see that she's made a leap in thought that others
may not follow. That has helped her explain it for herself when I'm not
there to translate.


>>>An incident that happened recently was my husband had him at a
playground and a bunch of kids his age were playing touch football.
Lukas ran over to them and was trying to get the ball away.They told him
to stop but he wouldn't. One kid said to another that he's a big kid but
acts like a little one. My husband said Lukas wouldn't listen and play
right so they shunned him. Lukas walked away sad and my husband tried to
explain to him that they were playing and the rules of the game but
Lukas didn't want to listen to it and walked away from him.>>>

Did he want to play with the kids, or did he want to play with the ball?
Perhaps he really had no real interest in playing a formalized game, but
just wanted to play around with a ball, and maybe have some other kids
do the same thing. Or maybe he just wanted to play with the ball.
Maybe he wasn't sad at all about playing with the kids and didn't feel
shunned at all, maybe he was sad that he couldn't just play with the
ball and then felt even more sad and frustrated that nobody seemed to
understand that, so walked away.


>>>I have tried changing my pitch,tone when speaking so i can finish. It
doesn't work. Ya think i should have some structure here and how to go
about it?>>>

None of that is going to work if your kid is feeling misunderstood. The
key, it seems, based on what you've said, is that YOU are not
communicating effectively with him, where he is at. Don't talk at him.
Ask questions about what he's said, pay really close attention to what
comes out of his head and into words, get inside him a little.
>

kelly_sturman

--- In [email protected], "troubadour4me" <ronniegreek@...> wrote:
>
> He doesn't know how to follow a train of thought or carry on a conversation.

He doesn't know how, or he doesn't choose to?

I had an 8 y.o. who did this. We tried explaining
what a non-sequitur is, but, well, refer back to
the blah, blah, friggin' blah thread.

So then we made up a game called non-sequitur. Or
maybe we lifted it from the TV show "Whose Line
Is It, Anyway?"

The point of the game is to keep a "conversation"
going for as long as possible, but every new utterance
must be a non-sequitur of the preceding statement.

That sounds mean, like we were making fun of the kid
who originally "couldn't" follow a conversation. But
this child loved the game and joined in enthusiastically.
We all found out it's actually pretty challenging to think
of things to say that are totally non-related to things
others have just said. We all had fun with it.

If the child felt picked on, that child would have told
us so, through words or actions. But that was not the
intention, and it was not how the non-sequitur game was
received.

If my child had felt picked on, then I would have certainly
apologized and stopped the game immediately.

There can be a fine line between humor and meanness;
you have to be really careful and tuned in to how
your kids are taking the game, but this worked for us.

Maybe it's not unschooly, tho'... too much danger of
hurting the child's feelings?

Kelly Sturman
http://kelly-livingjoyfully.blogspot.com

alohabun

When your ds talks about his games and makes noises from some shows, he is probably excited to share that with you and is interested in them. (His timing of interrupting might be difficult, but it will probably pass with age and many reminders of please try to wait until we're done talking unless it is an emergency...but what constitutes an emergency to a 7 yr old is likely different than what an adult might think is an emergency. Anyway, have the patience with him that you'd like him to have.) Maybe you could try to share in his excitement by asking questions about his game or asking to watch or play it. If it is a show, you could come out with a "I loved that show!" or ask "What show is that from?" so he knows you are trying to connect with him.

My son talks so much about Magic the Gathering or Pokemon evolving and he is 7 and really into those things. I've learned to play both (I will always be learning at Magic as it has lots of rules) and we really connect over playing them together. By sharing instead of shunning his interests, life gets fun for you both! I hope you find a way to help him feel understood and for you to not feel so frustrated.

Laurie

Sandra Dodd

-=-That sounds mean, like we were making fun of the kid
who originally "couldn't" follow a conversation. But
this child loved the game and joined in enthusiastically.
We all found out it's actually pretty challenging to think
of things to say that are totally non-related to things
others have just said. We all had fun with it.-=-

I think that's a good idea. Modelling it so that he can see what he's
doing without also making it seem sarcastic or rude.

A few times I whined back at my kids if they were whining. I wouldn't
have done it if it had made someone sad or furious (which it easily
had the potential to do. More often I said in a normal, kind voice
that I would understand better if they didn't whine.

This is total conditioning, this next story, but it worked, and I
think conditioning (a.k.a. training, manipulation) is better than
nothing if a child isn't at all susceptible (for whatever reasons) to
discussions of the principles involved.

i was teaching 9th grade and there was a girl in my class who was
bright and popular and had a bad habit. It was irritating, and she
knew it, but she didn't know how to stop it. Sometimes people would
make comments back, or sometimes she would get in trouble with her mom
or a teacher.

What she was doing was doing the little tongue cluck "tsk" that so
often is used as a comment of derision when someone else says
something one thinks is stupid. It was pretty common in Northern New
Mexico in those days (70's) as a bi-lingual put-down. But she didn't
mean it as a put down. She did it after everything she said, kind of
as a habit of "finished." I've seen kids who mouthed what they had
just said right after they said it. Kirby did that for a while. It
was like a review for him, but also showed that he was through with
his statement.

So I asked the girl if she wanted us to help her stop, and she said
yes. So I asked the others in that English class, which was the first
one of the morning and that was helpful, to just quietly make the tsk
noise whenever this girl did. They agreed. They all liked her
enough that they were willing to help. I said don't even look at her
or make a deal of it, but if we make the noise she'll know she had
done it and can try not to.

I wasn't sure it would work well, but it did. Sometimes she would
make the noise to herself while she was writing. 25 others softly
repeated it. The first day there were probably 25 or 30 of them.
The next day maybe ten. In operant conditioning terms, "the behavior
was extinguished" in four or five days. I think the fifth day there
was one tsk. She was happier and everyone in the class had learned a
trick.

This isn't among the first dozen tools I'd recommend to unschoolers,
but it's good to have options in extreme situations.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bea

>
> My husband and I had a discussion this morning over our son(7yo.) not listening when you talk. I was telling my husband that i can hardly get a few words in before Lukas cuts me off. I can be talking about anything not only suggesting advice when he goes off with non-sense ramblings or a "I know mommy" statement and walks away.
> My husband said this might be a defense by our son. I feel his lack of listening is hurting him socially. He doesn't know how to follow a train of thought or carry on a conversation. He will walk up to someone and say hi and have no interest in them....he will just start talking about a ds game or something on his mind. Not the basics of small talk.Lukas will talk all day but it's noise really. I think this is my fault because i haven't stressed to him following a conversation?>
-------------

I'm coming late to this discussion, but I was looking at Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development, and this is what is written for the Preoperational Stage (2-7 Years):

"The Preoperational child is also unaware of another person’s perspective. They exhibit egocentric thought and language. "


(I foung this here:
http://coe.sdsu.edu/eet/Articles/piaget/index.htm
)

So it doesn't surprise me too much that a seven year old, like a 3 year old, does not know how to make small talk.


Bea

Jenny C

>
> I'm coming late to this discussion, but I was looking at Piaget's
Stages of Cognitive Development, and this is what is written for the
Preoperational Stage (2-7 Years):
>
> "The Preoperational child is also unaware of another person’s
perspective. They exhibit egocentric thought and language. "
>
> So it doesn't surprise me too much that a seven year old, like a 3
year old, does not know how to make small talk.
>


Margaux, at 7 1/2, is just now starting to get empathy and understanding
for other people. Up until this point there was nothing that I could
say or do that would help her understand that her actions impact others.

That doesn't mean that I never pointed things out though. I do think
it's really important to demonstrate, point things out, and talk a bit
about it, even if you think that they aren't really getting it. It
doesn't have to be big and labored, simple explanations will work. All
those little things that you talk to your kids about, stick in there
somewhere, and when they finally have awareness and understanding, there
is something there to catch onto.

I think those "ah ha" moments happen because of that. They can happen
on their own too, but my own experience is that "ah ha" moments happen
when I'm suddenly aware of something, and I remember when I first
encountered the idea, but it hadn't become relevant.

Holly David

Hello, I'm new to the group.  But when I read this I thought of when my boys were younger, and an older, and very wise woman modeled for me how to interact with children in a way where they would listen. 
 
First of all, she encouraged me to always turn toward my child and look at him while he was speaking to me.  Perhaps this was really the key!  However, she also asked the children to look at her while she was engaging them.  My son did not respond to her request at first, it was as if the sun were in his eyes as she continued to search for his eyes to meet hers.  But she went on to play, I think it was, red light / green light with them. 
 
Later, I asked my son to look into my eyes and tell me what he saw, the colors, the shapes, etc.  From then on, often I would ask him to look into my eyes, or look at me, and I would speak to him about whatever was encouraging, interesting, or attentive to him at that moment.  Now, to this day, if saying his name does not get his attention, which it usually does unless he is pre-occupied, all I have to say is "look at me," and he immediately stops talking or whatever he is doing and gives me his full attention.       
 
His social skills are definitely one of his strong attributes.  People notice how attentive he is for his age (7) and often comment about his eye contact.
 
I hope this helps you, the way it did me!
 
A fellow momma who is always learning,
Holly 

--- On Wed, 6/17/09, Bea <bmantovani@...> wrote:


From: Bea <bmantovani@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A need to "coach" more concentration?
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 8:15 PM









>
> My husband and I had a discussion this morning over our son(7yo.) not listening when you talk. I was telling my husband that i can hardly get a few words in before Lukas cuts me off. I can be talking about anything not only suggesting advice when he goes off with non-sense ramblings or a "I know mommy" statement and walks away.
> My husband said this might be a defense by our son. I feel his lack of listening is hurting him socially. He doesn't know how to follow a train of thought or carry on a conversation. He will walk up to someone and say hi and have no interest in them....he will just start talking about a ds game or something on his mind. Not the basics of small talk.Lukas will talk all day but it's noise really. I think this is my fault because i haven't stressed to him following a conversation? >
------------ -

I'm coming late to this discussion, but I was looking at Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development, and this is what is written for the Preoperational Stage (2-7 Years):

"The Preoperational child is also unaware of another person’s perspective. They exhibit egocentric thought and language. "

(I foung this here:
http://coe.sdsu edu/eet/Articles /piaget/index. htm
)

So it doesn't surprise me too much that a seven year old, like a 3 year old, does not know how to make small talk.

Bea




















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~ People notice
how attentive he is for his age (7)Â and often comment about his eye contact.~~

Eye contact is overrated. Some people listen better when they don't look into someone's eyes. There are different ways of doing most anything and trying to push eye contact may be unhelpful for some.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-Eye contact is overrated. Some people listen better when they don't
look into someone's eyes. There are different ways of doing most
anything and trying to push eye contact may be unhelpful for some.-=-

Right. She's very right. Too much eye contact is hostile primate
behavior. Don't go against instincts when you don't have to!

When I say a teen couldn't make eye contact with me, there's more to
the statement than that. They might be just used to ignoring adults.
They might have been hostilely looking elsewhere. They might be
showing fear or disgust.

When I say my kids make good eye contact, I mean GOOD eye contact, not
constant or inappropriate eye contact. There's such a think as too
little, and such a thing as too much. Looking at the thing the other
person is talking about, or holding her hand and looking at her hand,
or brushing her hair and only glancing at her face once in a while
could be way more helpful.

When someone recommends turning full on toward the child, that means
don't keep reading your newspaper or your computer screen. Pause the
DVD. Put down the gardening tools. It doesn't mean stare at the
child until he finishes his story. It means to be WITH him, with him
in thought, and with him in emotion if needed, and with him in
awareness.

Last July there was a discussion on this list about eye contact.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/36527

It was part of another thread, but had some good stories and ideas.

I think being side by side with someone is a good way to focus
attention away from eyes yet still on them, so they can speak without
the intimidation and confusion of your face right in front of them.
http://sandradodd.com/truck


Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brenda Ferns

So true Sandy I have three girls 5,4,and 21 months. My husband for the longest time would try and get them to look into his eyes when he was talking to them and has realized since we started this new and amazing lifestyle that they are more interested in looking at what you are talking about or looking down if they are upset. I think making someone look into your eyes when you are talking to them especially children it makes them feel intimidated and that is a communication blocker and it is a good way to weaken the bond between parent and child. For some it works but I do not see it working for mine. I believe they are still listening even though they are not looking into your eyes.

Brenda

Learning is not happening some of the time learning is happening all of the time. Life is all about learning.
Mom of 3 amazing girls.
http://adventerousfernsfamily.blogspot.com/




________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 8:32:00 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A need to "coach" more concentration?





-=-Eye contact is overrated. Some people listen better when they don't
look into someone's eyes. There are different ways of doing most
anything and trying to push eye contact may be unhelpful for some.-=-

Right. She's very right. Too much eye contact is hostile primate
behavior. Don't go against instincts when you don't have to!

When I say a teen couldn't make eye contact with me, there's more to
the statement than that. They might be just used to ignoring adults.
They might have been hostilely looking elsewhere. They might be
showing fear or disgust.

When I say my kids make good eye contact, I mean GOOD eye contact, not
constant or inappropriate eye contact. There's such a think as too
little, and such a thing as too much. Looking at the thing the other
person is talking about, or holding her hand and looking at her hand,
or brushing her hair and only glancing at her face once in a while
could be way more helpful.

When someone recommends turning full on toward the child, that means
don't keep reading your newspaper or your computer screen. Pause the
DVD. Put down the gardening tools. It doesn't mean stare at the
child until he finishes his story. It means to be WITH him, with him
in thought, and with him in emotion if needed, and with him in
awareness.

Last July there was a discussion on this list about eye contact.
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/AlwaysLear ning/message/ 36527

It was part of another thread, but had some good stories and ideas.

I think being side by side with someone is a good way to focus
attention away from eyes yet still on them, so they can speak without
the intimidation and confusion of your face right in front of them.
http://sandradodd. com/truck

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Holly David

Hmmm...interesting comments, certainly some thoughts to consider...
 
A few things that come to my mind are, first off,
one of the people who commented about my son's attention and eye contact was my FIL who preformed a magic trick for my boys, and he said that never in all his dealings with young children had any child ever noticed the detail of his actions and asked the intuitive questions which my son did.  Thus, I suppose he wasn't looking into his eyes like a zombie or anything, because he took notice of the subtle things that were going on behind the scene.
 
Also, a memory has really stuck in mind of when a concerned family member of a patient in the hospital ask their nurse about their loved one's condition, the nurse just stared at the ground and then preceded to tie her shoe.  Maybe she was thinking...but it just seemed so incredibly rude to me of her not to acknowledge the persons concerns in a way that showed she was listening, understood, or even cared.
 
I had no idea so many people were uncomfortable with eye contact, I guess it has always seemed like a natural gesture of respect to me (to the extent mentioned, not zombie eye contact).  I've always thought of peoples eyes as a window to their soul.  However, I suppose there are some souls I'd rather not come in contact with...
 
But I think what Sandra said explains the concept well.  I feel my boys aren't intimidated when we look into each other in the eyes because it's a connecting moment for us, I'm truly taking an interested in them and they are responding with a genuine interest in me.  To me, that's definitely not over-rated!!!      

--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Brenda Ferns <s_bferns@...> wrote:


From: Brenda Ferns <s_bferns@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A need to "coach" more concentration?
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 12:18 PM








So true Sandy I have three girls 5,4,and 21 months. My husband for the longest time would try and get them to look into his eyes when he was talking to them and has realized since we started this new and amazing lifestyle that they are more interested in looking at what you are talking about or looking down if they are upset. I think making someone look into your eyes when you are talking to them especially children it makes them feel intimidated and that is a communication blocker and it is a good way to weaken the bond between parent and child. For some it works but I do not see it working for mine. I believe they are still listening even though they are not looking into your eyes.

Brenda

Learning is not happening some of the time learning is happening all of the time. Life is all about learning.
Mom of 3 amazing girls.
http://adventerousf ernsfamily. blogspot. com/

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@SandraDodd. com>
To: AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 8:32:00 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A need to "coach" more concentration?

-=-Eye contact is overrated. Some people listen better when they don't
look into someone's eyes. There are different ways of doing most
anything and trying to push eye contact may be unhelpful for some.-=-

Right. She's very right. Too much eye contact is hostile primate
behavior. Don't go against instincts when you don't have to!

When I say a teen couldn't make eye contact with me, there's more to
the statement than that. They might be just used to ignoring adults.
They might have been hostilely looking elsewhere. They might be
showing fear or disgust.

When I say my kids make good eye contact, I mean GOOD eye contact, not
constant or inappropriate eye contact. There's such a think as too
little, and such a thing as too much. Looking at the thing the other
person is talking about, or holding her hand and looking at her hand,
or brushing her hair and only glancing at her face once in a while
could be way more helpful.

When someone recommends turning full on toward the child, that means
don't keep reading your newspaper or your computer screen. Pause the
DVD. Put down the gardening tools. It doesn't mean stare at the
child until he finishes his story. It means to be WITH him, with him
in thought, and with him in emotion if needed, and with him in
awareness.

Last July there was a discussion on this list about eye contact.
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/AlwaysLear ning/message/ 36527

It was part of another thread, but had some good stories and ideas.

I think being side by side with someone is a good way to focus
attention away from eyes yet still on them, so they can speak without
the intimidation and confusion of your face right in front of them.
http://sandradodd. com/truck

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- I'm truly taking an interested in them and they are responding
with a genuine interest in me. To me, that's definitely not over-
rated!!! -=-

Eye contact isn't the proof of being genuinely interested, though.

I had another thought today. I wouldn't say "Look at me" to one of
you if you were visiting me. I've always found it a good aid to
consider my children as guests in my home, when I wasn't sure how to
talk to them or to deal with something. It used to seem rhetorical,
but one of my "guests" left two years ago, and another is leaving in
September. It might seem like a long time when your children are
babies, but when they're young adults, they thank you for the visit
and go on somewhere else.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Su Penn

On Jun 21, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=- I'm truly taking an interested in them and they are responding
> with a genuine interest in me. To me, that's definitely not over-
> rated!!! -=-
>
> Eye contact isn't the proof of being genuinely interested, though.

I'm a Quaker. We worship in silence, except when someone is led to
speak, and when someone is speaking, some people might look at the
person but lots of other people might be sitting with their eyes
closed or looking somewhere else. In our business meetings, when we
are discussing decisions, the same thing--especially if things get
heated or there's potential for conflict, you'll see more and more
people closing their eyes and stilling their bodies to listen both to
what the speaker is saying and to Spirit. I once gave a speech to
Quakers during which most people in the audience had their eyes
closed, sitting in various postures from sitting up straight to
slumping even to lying on the floor. I stood up and spoke out of a
period of silence, even though the speech was prepared in advance and
scheduled, and when I was done speaking and sat back down, there was
no applause--just a return to deep silence.

I joke all the time that Quakers missed the lesson about "active
listening."

Once I was on a support committee for a couple who were trying to heal
from one partner's adultery. In those meetings, they both had to say
things that were very hard to say, and they were hard for us to hear,
as well. It was common for everyone listening to center and close
their eyes in order to be able to hear what the couple were talking
about.

This is obviously not applicable to everybody. It's just one example
from my life of people doing the very things that look like "not
listening" but that really are part of a process of very deep listening.

Su

mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, almost 2

Holly David

Good points.  I usually don't have to ask my boys to look at me anymore though, most often just saying their name causes them to respond by looking at me. 
 
I've gotta say, I was most thankful, when a few weeks ago we were out of town, and my almost 5 year old looked up and saw my husband already across the street, (we had fallen behind due to being distracted by a conversation), anyway not being fully aware of his surroundings (it was a campus road that hardly even looked like a street) and excited at that moment, he started to dart after his father not realizing a car was coming down the road rapidly approaching.  Frantically, I merely called out his name, and much to my relief, he stopped from a lurching sprint dead in his tracks and turned around and looked at me!  It was one of those heart stopping moments.  Right or wrong in my methods of showing him how to listen, I'm really glad he listens the way he does!  It certainly does make our life more joyful!  ;-)  

--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:


From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A need to "coach" more concentration?
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 7:38 PM








-=- I'm truly taking an interested in them and they are responding
with a genuine interest in me. To me, that's definitely not over-
rated!!! -=-

Eye contact isn't the proof of being genuinely interested, though.

I had another thought today. I wouldn't say "Look at me" to one of
you if you were visiting me. I've always found it a good aid to
consider my children as guests in my home, when I wasn't sure how to
talk to them or to deal with something. It used to seem rhetorical,
but one of my "guests" left two years ago, and another is leaving in
September. It might seem like a long time when your children are
babies, but when they're young adults, they thank you for the visit
and go on somewhere else.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-= Right or wrong in my methods of showing him how to listen, I'm
really glad he listens the way he does! -=-

It's not a "right or wrong." My mom would be sure the reason I was
never hit by a car was that I'd been spanked for going into the street.

The discussions here are rarely about the individual families, but
about the idea.
The idea of commanding a child "Look at me" isn't the only way to get
his attention or to keep it, and looking at a person isn't always
indicative of paying attention.

I found where I had put the notes from the last discussion:

http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com/2008/07/eye-contact-and-ancient-instinctive.html

Schuyler put some links there. The first one isn't available freely
to just anyone (though some people here might have access for one
reason or another), but I think the third link is talking about eye
aversion during learning and thinking.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Linda Knauff

Eye contact is difficult for those on the autistic spectrum (1 out of every 150 people you meet.) For some, eye contact can be so overstimulating, that if forced, the person cannot concentrate on what is being said, and communication may break down completely. Listening, for many people, can only take place if eye contact in not required.

However, socially, eye contact is expected and valued in our society. If a person refuses or is unable to maintain (or at least give the appearance of maintaining) eye contact, in certain situations, that person may very well run the risk of appearing inattentive, disinterested, and even untrustworthy. This could be important at say, a job interview, where first impressions can be very important.

I would not force my children to make eye contact when speaking with me-- I have one who naturally makes great eye contact and one who listens better without. But I do talk to both of my children about how much most of our society values eye contact. I think it would be a disservice not to make them aware.

Linda


----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A need to "coach" more concentration?





-= Right or wrong in my methods of showing him how to listen, I'm
really glad he listens the way he does! -=-

It's not a "right or wrong." My mom would be sure the reason I was
never hit by a car was that I'd been spanked for going into the street.

The discussions here are rarely about the individual families, but
about the idea.
The idea of commanding a child "Look at me" isn't the only way to get
his attention or to keep it, and looking at a person isn't always
indicative of paying attention.

I found where I had put the notes from the last discussion:

http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com/2008/07/eye-contact-and-ancient-instinctive.html

Schuyler put some links there. The first one isn't available freely
to just anyone (though some people here might have access for one
reason or another), but I think the third link is talking about eye
aversion during learning and thinking.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 6/21/2009 6:23 PM, Holly David wrote:
> Right or wrong in my methods of showing him how to listen, I'm really glad he listens the way he does! It certainly does make our life more joyful!;-)
>

I'd rather they listened because what I have to say is valuable to them,
though, than because they've been trained to turn their head toward me.
I mean, my dog is very well trained - she always turns her head and
looks at me, on alert, when I say her name.


When we speak kindly to our kids, don't yell or whine and nag at them,
then they will hear the urgency in our voice in an emergency and it will
get their attention.

-pam

Schuyler

I rarely say no to Simon or Linnaea and certainly almost never shout it. But a month or so ago we were in Fremont, WA visiting the Fremont Troll with friends and Simon and Linnaea were darting across the street together. They hadn't realized that the street was divided into two lights and were just about to run across the second section of street, against the light, with cars coming, when I shouted "NO!" in a big, loud voice. They stopped in their tracks. If those noises were a common occurance in their lives, they might not have heard me when they needed to. The driver was already going slow, he or she had probably already spotted two kids beginning to move toward the road. But it was good to see how looking for a yes instead of obedience made that NO so very effective.

Schuyler




________________________________


I've gotta say, I was most thankful, when a few weeks ago we were out of town, and my almost 5 year old looked up and saw my husband already across the street, (we had fallen behind due to being distracted by a conversation), anyway not being fully aware of his surroundings (it was a campus road that hardly even looked like a street) and excited at that moment, he started to dart after his father not realizing a car was coming down the road rapidly approaching. Frantically, I merely called out his name, and much to my relief, he stopped from a lurching sprint dead in his tracks and turned around and looked at me! It was one of those heart stopping moments. Right or wrong in my methods of showing him how to listen, I'm really glad he listens the way he does! It certainly does make our life more joyful! ;-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Laureen

Heya

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Sandra Dodd<Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-Eye contact is overrated. Some people listen better when they don't
> look into someone's eyes. There are different ways of doing most
> anything and trying to push eye contact may be unhelpful for some.-=-
>
> Right.  She's very right.  Too much eye contact is hostile primate
> behavior.  Don't go against instincts when you don't have to!

I was in an anatomy for bodyworkers class this weekend, and the
instructor is a somatic psychotherapist. He was talking about eye
contact, and how incredibly potent it is from a biochemical
perspective.

Apparently, gazing into the eyes of another at the distance of a
nursing baby from its mother (about 18", roughly) has the potential to
release large amounts of oxytocin into the bloodstream,
creating/facilitating bonding between two people on an emotional
level. Thus, he explained, it's *extremely* important that if you're
going to engage in eye contact at that general range, you need to make
sure your intent is loving and connecting and no other thing, because
it "screws with the hormonal soup" otherwise, and that's part of why
eye contact with the intent to manipulate or intimidate is so
incredibly upsetting. On a biochemical level, it's wrong.

He suggested that for conversations involving two people but not that
level of deep contact, it's often far better to be facing the same
way, shoulder to shoulder (which is why talking on walks or during
drives is often really good), because there isn't the same level of
hormonal involvement that way.

FWIW, YMMV,

--
~~L!

s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/

Holly David

Pam,
 
May I ask you a simple question, WHY did you bother to train your dog to respond to his name, while you don't think it is necessary to do so for your children?  Or perhaps you did not actually train your dog to respond in such a way, but it may be an automatic response of his to your authority and/or his bond to you. 
 
Also, if you didn't read my first posts, I mentioned how I did condition my children to look at me when I speak to them, or when addressed by others, by speaking things which were of value to them.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 
You know, I don't get it...
A person on the list posts a concern that her child is hurting socially because he lacks communication skills important to conversation, and in response to my suggestions, people come out of the wood work to defend lack of eye contact, and to state objections to a proposed way to guide a child to better listening skills.  It was merely a suggestion which has proved to help my boys excel in their development and relationships.  It's really puzzling why that seems to be so offensive to some.  Is it possible that it might be a little extreme to always treat your 3 year old like he is a guest in your home?  Not to be antagonistic, but honestly, it seems so to me... 
 
However, the real question here is,
does anyone else have anything of value to offer Bea to help enrich her child's social interactions???   
 
 


--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:


From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A need to "coach" more concentration?
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 12:31 AM










On 6/21/2009 6:23 PM, Holly David wrote:
> Right or wrong in my methods of showing him how to listen, I'm really glad he listens the way he does! It certainly does make our life more joyful!;-)
>

I'd rather they listened because what I have to say is valuable to them,
though, than because they've been trained to turn their head toward me.
I mean, my dog is very well trained - she always turns her head and
looks at me, on alert, when I say her name.

When we speak kindly to our kids, don't yell or whine and nag at them,
then they will hear the urgency in our voice in an emergency and it will
get their attention.

-pam


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

This is antagonistic, but I let it through because I think the
discussion that follows will be helpful to many readers. The author
of these words should go easier on the tone of questions in future.


-=-Pam,
May I ask you a simple question, WHY did you bother to train your
dog to respond to his name, while you don't think it is necessary to
do so for your children? Or perhaps you did not actually train your
dog to respond in such a way, but it may be an automatic response of
his to your authority and/or his bond to you. -=-

It's best when comments are directed to the list in general, or in
response to an idea, rather than to an individual. Sometimes we do
ask for clarification, but on a list with way over 1000 members, to be
this directly rude to Pam by name is unacceptable to me, as list owner.

-=-Also, if you didn't read my first posts, I mentioned how I did
condition my children to look at me when I speak to them, or when
addressed by others, by speaking things which were of value to them.-=-

Pam read your posts. She's a moderator of the list. Hundreds of
people read your posts.

Pam did not "bother" to train her dog to respond to his name. Have
you ever had a dog? You don't need to train them to pay attention
when you're talking to them.

It is not necessary to train children to do ANYthing. That's the
whole basis of unschooling.
Unschooling isn't about conditioning children.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~If a person refuses or is unable to maintain (or at least give the appearance of maintaining) eye contact, in certain situations, that person may very well run the risk of appearing inattentive, disinterested, and even untrustworthy.~~

I learned early on in life, that direct eye contact was uncomfortable for me. I also learned that people expected it and didn't trust you if you didn't give it in our society. I came up with a technique of looking at the person's mouth or nose while they were talking, which was much more comfortable and appeared as though I was making eye contact.

I can make eye contact more comfortably now, but I'm still more likely to be watching your mouth while you talk.:)

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

Pam Sorooshian

On 6/22/2009 2:14 PM, Holly David wrote:
> Pam,
>
> May I ask you a simple question, WHY did you bother to train your dog to respond to his name, while you don't think it is necessary to do so for your children? Or perhaps you did not actually train your dog to respond in such a way, but it may be an automatic response of his to your authority and/or his bond to you.
>
>
> Also, if you didn't read my first posts, I mentioned how I did condition my children to look at me when I speak to them, or when addressed by others, by speaking things which were of value to them.
>
I read all the posts. What I'm hoping people will think about is whether
children should be "conditioned" or "trained" as we might train a pet.
Yes, it is very clearly possible to use behaviorist conditioning
techniques to train children, but is it respectful? Is it conducive to
the kind of relationships we are hoping to have? You have trained your
child to look at you when you say his name? Have you seen the episode of
"The Office" where Jim trains Dwight to repeatedly reach out for an
Altoid every time he hears Jim's computer reboot? If you've conditioned
a child to turn his head toward you and look into your eyes when you say
his name, how is that different? Again, I'm suggesting that we reject
the entire mentality that is so popular these days, so completely
accepted, that parenting is mostly all about conditioning our kids -
training them to behave the way WE want them to behave.

Support, encourage, model, explain, guide,...., there are lots of ways
to be with children. Some people sort of live in a Skinnerian
conditioning mindset. I'm objecting to it and think it is possible to
live at a higher level.

-pam

Jenny C

>
> Also, if you didn't read my first posts, I mentioned how I did
condition my children to look at me when I speak to them, or when
addressed by others, by speaking things which were of value to them.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------\
------------------------------------------------
>
> A person on the list posts a concern that her child is hurting
socially because he lacks communication skills important to
conversation, and in response to my suggestions, people come out of the
wood work to defend lack of eye contact, and to state objections to a
proposed way to guide a child to better listening skills. >>

Aaack sometimes yahoo really makes me mad! What about keep me signed in
for 2 weeks did it not understand?.... oh well, I lost my whole post, so
I will try it again!

The objection is the idea of conditioning children, based on the words
you've used and the idea behind conditioning a child to use eye contact
to have better listening skills. Eye contact doesn't make better
listening skills.

If it worked for your kids, then your kids probably had eye contact and
listening skills anyway.

My experience is that if I really want to listen to what someone is
saying, direct eye contact is the last thing I want to do. Sitting in a
porch swing, sitting across from someone at a table, making and eating
food, or generally DOing something else, while listening works far
better.

Eye contact doesn't prove that someone is listening or has heard a word
of what the other person has said. A lot of adults confuse this with
kids. They make their kids use eye contact to prove listening, and to
further confuse this, adults confuse listening with doing. It makes me
uncomfortable just watching it happen.

There is no room for questioning and dialog when adults talk at their
kids. If adults talk WITH their kids, listening is more likely to
occur, with or without eye contact. If the focus is on eye contact,
there are a lot of other skills and social clues being overlooked. For
a kid who is having difficulties in social situations, this does them a
huge disservice to focus on one aspect of social interaction such as eye
contact.

Pam Sorooshian

Not avoiding eye contact isn't the same as purposely making eye contact.
I'm made uncomfortable when someone is clearly avoiding eye contact, but
also will feel uncomfortable when I sense that someone is making eye
contact on purpose to try to make me feeling like they are really
"hearing" me. Sometimes I'll have students who will stare intently into
my eyes, constantly, while I'm speaking in front of a class. It makes
them seem odd and, sometimes, challenging.

-pam

On 6/23/2009 9:56 AM, Jenny C wrote:
> Eye contact doesn't prove that someone is listening or has heard a word
> of what the other person has said. A lot of adults confuse this with
> kids. They make their kids use eye contact to prove listening, and to
> further confuse this, adults confuse listening with doing. It makes me
> uncomfortable just watching it happen.
>

troubadour4me

It's time i come back to reply. First,I insulted my son when i said he makes noise not conversation. I am sorry for writing that. I realised as soon as i posted what i had done and after i read some replies and hung out with him we had 12 or so nice conversations that morning alone.
He is very witty and funny. I often sings songs that i subsitute the real words with mine and he does that too..it is halirious.
I don't like making eye contact unless i am close to the person so i understand what your saying!
We do have some major issues that i have been discussing with my husband and i am writing down in notes,getting my thoughts together to see how we can be more happy as a family. I started at 2am when my head was clearer and it was quieter. It is things we have been struggling with for some time now.I am doing alot of thinking/trying for solutions today and when i get all my words down i will post. thanks,Heather--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> Not avoiding eye contact isn't the same as purposely making eye contact.
> I'm made uncomfortable when someone is clearly avoiding eye contact, but
> also will feel uncomfortable when I sense that someone is making eye
> contact on purpose to try to make me feeling like they are really
> "hearing" me. Sometimes I'll have students who will stare intently into
> my eyes, constantly, while I'm speaking in front of a class. It makes
> them seem odd and, sometimes, challenging.
>
> -pam
>
> On 6/23/2009 9:56 AM, Jenny C wrote:
> > Eye contact doesn't prove that someone is listening or has heard a word
> > of what the other person has said. A lot of adults confuse this with
> > kids. They make their kids use eye contact to prove listening, and to
> > further confuse this, adults confuse listening with doing. It makes me
> > uncomfortable just watching it happen.
> >
>