babsteps in communication with husband
DaBreeze21
Hi-
I started reading about unschooling almost a year and a half ago. I got
SUPER excited and in that excitement told my husband about it. He was
not so excited. Since that time I have embraced a lot of really good
advice - I do not bring it up with him really, but have continued to
read about it daily. Our few conversations have not gone well. Around
Valentine's day this past year I wrote him a letter (I had been reading
about unschooling for about a year at this point). I let him know that
if we explore our options together I am of course willing to have our
children go to school if that is what is best for the happiness of our
family. (Thank you Sandra! I do mean that too... What I am working for
now is at least having DISCUSSION and actually exploring together).
He read it and we haven't discussed since. This past weekend I got
really upset when he made a comment to me about not liking my ideas,
unschooling etc. This was during a "discussion" about something entirely
unrelated -- where to put the couch in our new apartment! So clearly it
has been building up in him. I was very hurt but we didn't discuss it
anymore.
So today I sent him an email:
I never addressed my "joyful" mood on Sunday. I thought it was pretty
obvious what made me really upset, and I have a feeling you had an
inkling. I don't want to let it slide though because my strong feelings
tend to fade and it is possible to just let things go until the "next
time" and it becomes a cycle without dealing with anything.
It was not the "discussion" about where to put the couch that hurt me so
much. Although I think it is actually a good analogy to what IS
bothering me. I purposely do NOT bring up unschooling because I am
trying to respect that you are not ready to talk about it. But I would
think that by now you would see that it is something that means a LOT to
me and something that I am learning a lot about; I read about it almost
every day. So when you make an offhand comment about it in a very
dismissive way that really hurts. I am a very thoughtful, intelligent
person - and we both know it. I think that you are too. I wouldn't be so
enthusiastic about something that couldn't be really good for all of us.
I feel like you shut down about things that you just want to go away or
just want your way. And yes I realize that I want "my" way. Or at least
a lot of discussion about what that means! That is the most hurtful part
for me at this point, that you won't even talk or read or anything. I
guess you may be scared that if you even look like you are considering
it then I will be encouraged?? I KNOW doing things differently isn't
easy, and I TRULY appreciate how supportive you have been about all of
our parenting decisions so far. I think (and I think you do too) that
Marisol is amazing. I hope that we all continue to grow together and
trust each other even more.
I LIKE thinking of different ways to do things - which is why I thought
the couch thing was a good analogy. I really am fine leaving it how you
like it -- part of the fun for me when settling a new place is trying
different things out first.
A lot of this is a repeat of what I wrote to you in that letter on
V-day, but you have not responded and I felt like I should say something
about why I was SO upset last weekend. I think that I will also start
emailing you little things to read and I hope that you will. A lot of it
is not even "unschooling" per se, but about learning, or how to treat
others, or how to live your life in general!
Here is something that I read today that I thought really made sense:
Think about that. The kids who do best in school, who have the types of
intelligences that schools are geared toward, are going to excel in
those areas without ever setting foot in a classroom. So all they really
get from school is gold stars and A grades for doing what comes
naturally.
And what about the kids who struggle in school? They spend all those
years feeling inadequate. Yes, some of them learn to write well, or to
enjoy reading, or to do some higher math. But can the schools take the
credit for it? After four years of unschooling, I'm not convinced they
can. Maybe it's another case of a natural process coinciding with an
artificial one. And for every one of those kids who is able to adapt
himself and get the rewards of school, there is one (five? twenty? a
hundred?) who comes out of school with nothing but a self-esteem
problem. It's thirteen wasted years, years he could have spent in an
environment that valued the strengths he possesses, developing real
skills to build a life on.
http://zombieprincess.blogspot.com/2007/03/about-learning-styles.html
I love you so much and hope that soon we will be able to talk about this
more.
Susan
Then we talked on google talk (we have ALWAYS been better about writing
- messaging on the computer especially, than about talking things out in
person. It is something I would like to work on, but I am happy that at
least we communicate in SOME way)
Here is the conversation:
Husband: what cha doing?
Susan: writing you an email
Husband: what?
Susan: if you have no work to do I gave you something to chew on :-)
I felt that I should clear up my bad mood last weekend since we never
did talk about it...
Husband: k
Susan: I wanted to talk to you about it the next day, but I always
chicken out or it seems like the "wrong" time
It's not long by my normal standards either... pretty brief really (the
email) I just sent it to you
(He read the email at this point and then we messaged more)
Husband: ok
I will talk about this whenever
but I thought you would bring it up
From what I know about unschooling I don't really like it
I think the good thing about traditional school is that you learn about
everything
Susan: I don't feel like it goes well when I bring it up - you have told
me before to just stop, that you dont' want to talk about it and pretty
much just stop me
Husband: even if you don't like something
so I am definately in favor of something more traditional
Susan: ok
Husband: not just letting the kid do what they want to do
if you want to home school I am okay with that
but I would like it to be structured
Susan: I'm just curious... tell me the benefit of learning about things
that you have no interest in? and how long do you think that it stays
with you?
Husband: some type of formal system...as formal as it can be at home
because maybe you don't know that it interests you
until you learn more about it
Susan: ok
I see what you are saying
Husband: kids should be exposed to every possible avenue
I didn't like chemistry or biology but at least I have some basic
understanding of it
I think that is good
it is noble, scholarly and not harmful
people change so much over time
not exposing them to different topics could be harmful in my opinion
Susan: well I am glad that you are willing to talk more about this, and
I hope that we can keep the conversations more positive... what I really
want is to talk to you about things like this and not have either of us
get overly defensive
Husband: ok that is fine
Susan: thanks :-)
I know you only want what is best for her (and other children) and I
hope you know that that is what I want too... we just have different
ideas right now about what that is
michaelmay21: yes I understand
I actually started crying while we were messaging each other. I think it
was such a relief to actually be discussing unschooling (or our
educational options) with him! (I am also very hormonal right now - 7
mos pregnant!) I was holding back a lot. I kind of let him get things
out - had a lot swirling in my mind as "responses" to his concerns - I
even started typing a few things and then deleted. I really didn't want
to "screw up" our first civil conversation. I already have some ideas of
things I may be able to say to try and alleviate some of his concerns.
But I also know that it will probably come across as me trying to
convince him of "my way". Some examples that of things I might say:
To this
Susan: I'm just curious... tell me the benefit of learning about things
that you have no interest in? and how long do you think that it stays
with you?
Husband:
because maybe you don't know that it interests you
until you learn more about it
I might say-
I think that strewing and the rich lives that successful unschoolers
lead pretty much negate this worry. Also I have read so much about how
one thing leads to another from so many people...
as for this:
Husband: kids should be exposed to every possible avenue
I didn't like chemistry or biology but at least I have some basic
understanding of it
I think that is good
it is noble, scholarly and not harmful
people change so much over time
not exposing them to different topics could be harmful in my opinion
I think I remember recently Pam or someone saying something about how
even school can't open every door - no path can do that! I don't know
what to say to the "noble, scholarly, and not harmful".
Oh, I guess the last line is pretty simple - Unschooler do expose their
kids to lots of different things!
I think I am suddenly seeing one of his misconceptions - that
"unstructured = kids do whatever they want" and that parents are not
influencing what they are doing in their lives at all.
I also pretty much know that I don't want to homeschool the way he was
saying... I agree with the idea that "school at home" is probably more
harmful to our relationships than plain old school. Plus I was a teacher
and that is not what I would want to do! I just let it go for now...
Ok, this is getting long. I really wanted input -- where do people think
I should go from here? I think this was a HUGE step for us and I want to
really think through things I say/do from here.
Thanks so much!
Susan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I started reading about unschooling almost a year and a half ago. I got
SUPER excited and in that excitement told my husband about it. He was
not so excited. Since that time I have embraced a lot of really good
advice - I do not bring it up with him really, but have continued to
read about it daily. Our few conversations have not gone well. Around
Valentine's day this past year I wrote him a letter (I had been reading
about unschooling for about a year at this point). I let him know that
if we explore our options together I am of course willing to have our
children go to school if that is what is best for the happiness of our
family. (Thank you Sandra! I do mean that too... What I am working for
now is at least having DISCUSSION and actually exploring together).
He read it and we haven't discussed since. This past weekend I got
really upset when he made a comment to me about not liking my ideas,
unschooling etc. This was during a "discussion" about something entirely
unrelated -- where to put the couch in our new apartment! So clearly it
has been building up in him. I was very hurt but we didn't discuss it
anymore.
So today I sent him an email:
I never addressed my "joyful" mood on Sunday. I thought it was pretty
obvious what made me really upset, and I have a feeling you had an
inkling. I don't want to let it slide though because my strong feelings
tend to fade and it is possible to just let things go until the "next
time" and it becomes a cycle without dealing with anything.
It was not the "discussion" about where to put the couch that hurt me so
much. Although I think it is actually a good analogy to what IS
bothering me. I purposely do NOT bring up unschooling because I am
trying to respect that you are not ready to talk about it. But I would
think that by now you would see that it is something that means a LOT to
me and something that I am learning a lot about; I read about it almost
every day. So when you make an offhand comment about it in a very
dismissive way that really hurts. I am a very thoughtful, intelligent
person - and we both know it. I think that you are too. I wouldn't be so
enthusiastic about something that couldn't be really good for all of us.
I feel like you shut down about things that you just want to go away or
just want your way. And yes I realize that I want "my" way. Or at least
a lot of discussion about what that means! That is the most hurtful part
for me at this point, that you won't even talk or read or anything. I
guess you may be scared that if you even look like you are considering
it then I will be encouraged?? I KNOW doing things differently isn't
easy, and I TRULY appreciate how supportive you have been about all of
our parenting decisions so far. I think (and I think you do too) that
Marisol is amazing. I hope that we all continue to grow together and
trust each other even more.
I LIKE thinking of different ways to do things - which is why I thought
the couch thing was a good analogy. I really am fine leaving it how you
like it -- part of the fun for me when settling a new place is trying
different things out first.
A lot of this is a repeat of what I wrote to you in that letter on
V-day, but you have not responded and I felt like I should say something
about why I was SO upset last weekend. I think that I will also start
emailing you little things to read and I hope that you will. A lot of it
is not even "unschooling" per se, but about learning, or how to treat
others, or how to live your life in general!
Here is something that I read today that I thought really made sense:
Think about that. The kids who do best in school, who have the types of
intelligences that schools are geared toward, are going to excel in
those areas without ever setting foot in a classroom. So all they really
get from school is gold stars and A grades for doing what comes
naturally.
And what about the kids who struggle in school? They spend all those
years feeling inadequate. Yes, some of them learn to write well, or to
enjoy reading, or to do some higher math. But can the schools take the
credit for it? After four years of unschooling, I'm not convinced they
can. Maybe it's another case of a natural process coinciding with an
artificial one. And for every one of those kids who is able to adapt
himself and get the rewards of school, there is one (five? twenty? a
hundred?) who comes out of school with nothing but a self-esteem
problem. It's thirteen wasted years, years he could have spent in an
environment that valued the strengths he possesses, developing real
skills to build a life on.
http://zombieprincess.blogspot.com/2007/03/about-learning-styles.html
I love you so much and hope that soon we will be able to talk about this
more.
Susan
Then we talked on google talk (we have ALWAYS been better about writing
- messaging on the computer especially, than about talking things out in
person. It is something I would like to work on, but I am happy that at
least we communicate in SOME way)
Here is the conversation:
Husband: what cha doing?
Susan: writing you an email
Husband: what?
Susan: if you have no work to do I gave you something to chew on :-)
I felt that I should clear up my bad mood last weekend since we never
did talk about it...
Husband: k
Susan: I wanted to talk to you about it the next day, but I always
chicken out or it seems like the "wrong" time
It's not long by my normal standards either... pretty brief really (the
email) I just sent it to you
(He read the email at this point and then we messaged more)
Husband: ok
I will talk about this whenever
but I thought you would bring it up
From what I know about unschooling I don't really like it
I think the good thing about traditional school is that you learn about
everything
Susan: I don't feel like it goes well when I bring it up - you have told
me before to just stop, that you dont' want to talk about it and pretty
much just stop me
Husband: even if you don't like something
so I am definately in favor of something more traditional
Susan: ok
Husband: not just letting the kid do what they want to do
if you want to home school I am okay with that
but I would like it to be structured
Susan: I'm just curious... tell me the benefit of learning about things
that you have no interest in? and how long do you think that it stays
with you?
Husband: some type of formal system...as formal as it can be at home
because maybe you don't know that it interests you
until you learn more about it
Susan: ok
I see what you are saying
Husband: kids should be exposed to every possible avenue
I didn't like chemistry or biology but at least I have some basic
understanding of it
I think that is good
it is noble, scholarly and not harmful
people change so much over time
not exposing them to different topics could be harmful in my opinion
Susan: well I am glad that you are willing to talk more about this, and
I hope that we can keep the conversations more positive... what I really
want is to talk to you about things like this and not have either of us
get overly defensive
Husband: ok that is fine
Susan: thanks :-)
I know you only want what is best for her (and other children) and I
hope you know that that is what I want too... we just have different
ideas right now about what that is
michaelmay21: yes I understand
I actually started crying while we were messaging each other. I think it
was such a relief to actually be discussing unschooling (or our
educational options) with him! (I am also very hormonal right now - 7
mos pregnant!) I was holding back a lot. I kind of let him get things
out - had a lot swirling in my mind as "responses" to his concerns - I
even started typing a few things and then deleted. I really didn't want
to "screw up" our first civil conversation. I already have some ideas of
things I may be able to say to try and alleviate some of his concerns.
But I also know that it will probably come across as me trying to
convince him of "my way". Some examples that of things I might say:
To this
Susan: I'm just curious... tell me the benefit of learning about things
that you have no interest in? and how long do you think that it stays
with you?
Husband:
because maybe you don't know that it interests you
until you learn more about it
I might say-
I think that strewing and the rich lives that successful unschoolers
lead pretty much negate this worry. Also I have read so much about how
one thing leads to another from so many people...
as for this:
Husband: kids should be exposed to every possible avenue
I didn't like chemistry or biology but at least I have some basic
understanding of it
I think that is good
it is noble, scholarly and not harmful
people change so much over time
not exposing them to different topics could be harmful in my opinion
I think I remember recently Pam or someone saying something about how
even school can't open every door - no path can do that! I don't know
what to say to the "noble, scholarly, and not harmful".
Oh, I guess the last line is pretty simple - Unschooler do expose their
kids to lots of different things!
I think I am suddenly seeing one of his misconceptions - that
"unstructured = kids do whatever they want" and that parents are not
influencing what they are doing in their lives at all.
I also pretty much know that I don't want to homeschool the way he was
saying... I agree with the idea that "school at home" is probably more
harmful to our relationships than plain old school. Plus I was a teacher
and that is not what I would want to do! I just let it go for now...
Ok, this is getting long. I really wanted input -- where do people think
I should go from here? I think this was a HUGE step for us and I want to
really think through things I say/do from here.
Thanks so much!
Susan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Ok, this is getting long. I really wanted input -- where do people
think
I should go from here? I think this was a HUGE step for us and I want to
really think through things I say/do from here.-=-
Maybe a copy of "Dumbing us Down?"
Maybe now that you have his concerns in writing you could be on the
lookout for studies that show American high school grads can't find
other countries on a map and things like that.
Maybe casually, conversationally (if that can happen, and if you can
be willing to bail if he catches on) you could talk about what you do
or don't remember from high school chemistry or physics or biology
classes. Maybe he would volunteer what he does or doesn't
remember. It might get him to thinking about what he does remember.
And the "everything" they teach in school is a teeny subset of
"everything." There are many topics school never touches and never
will, and those they do "touch" get the lightest of one- or two-week
unit and then it's on to something else.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think
I should go from here? I think this was a HUGE step for us and I want to
really think through things I say/do from here.-=-
Maybe a copy of "Dumbing us Down?"
Maybe now that you have his concerns in writing you could be on the
lookout for studies that show American high school grads can't find
other countries on a map and things like that.
Maybe casually, conversationally (if that can happen, and if you can
be willing to bail if he catches on) you could talk about what you do
or don't remember from high school chemistry or physics or biology
classes. Maybe he would volunteer what he does or doesn't
remember. It might get him to thinking about what he does remember.
And the "everything" they teach in school is a teeny subset of
"everything." There are many topics school never touches and never
will, and those they do "touch" get the lightest of one- or two-week
unit and then it's on to something else.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
I may have missed this, but is he
willing to read? Alfie Kohn summarizes
tons of educational research that talks
about how many of the aspects of school
inhibit/discourage learning.
The book, _The Game of School: Why We
All Play It, How It Hurts Kids, and
What It Will Take to Change It_ might
be convincing. The author, Robert Fried,
is a school psychologist, so he is a
proponent of schools. Yet, both professionally
and personally (one of his own children
struggled mightily in school), he has seen
the system shred kids, and he writes about
that. The stories he tells are so heart-
wrenching that it is hard to remember that
the guy is a part of the system he is
criticizing.
Also, would he be willing to agree to a
short trial of unschooling? That is how
our family began homeschooling. My DH
was reluctant, but was willing to give
a try, "for a semester." That semester
was so good that he was willing to let
us try the "experiment" for another
semester, and another...
Maybe it's too huge a leap for somebody
who's having a hard time even talking
about it, but sometimes it's easier
to do than to talk. One semester would
give you something to talk about, other
than your fears. It would give you a
real experience to discuss. And even
if he is afraid, what is going to be lost
in one semester?
Kelly Sturman
willing to read? Alfie Kohn summarizes
tons of educational research that talks
about how many of the aspects of school
inhibit/discourage learning.
The book, _The Game of School: Why We
All Play It, How It Hurts Kids, and
What It Will Take to Change It_ might
be convincing. The author, Robert Fried,
is a school psychologist, so he is a
proponent of schools. Yet, both professionally
and personally (one of his own children
struggled mightily in school), he has seen
the system shred kids, and he writes about
that. The stories he tells are so heart-
wrenching that it is hard to remember that
the guy is a part of the system he is
criticizing.
Also, would he be willing to agree to a
short trial of unschooling? That is how
our family began homeschooling. My DH
was reluctant, but was willing to give
a try, "for a semester." That semester
was so good that he was willing to let
us try the "experiment" for another
semester, and another...
Maybe it's too huge a leap for somebody
who's having a hard time even talking
about it, but sometimes it's easier
to do than to talk. One semester would
give you something to talk about, other
than your fears. It would give you a
real experience to discuss. And even
if he is afraid, what is going to be lost
in one semester?
Kelly Sturman
--- In [email protected], "DaBreeze21" <susanmay15@...> wrote:
>
>
> I think that is good
> it is noble, scholarly and not harmful
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "kelly_sturman" <conspicuousfamily@...> wrote:
quit school because the pace of the teaching was so slow compared to
what I knew was possible it was like watching grass grow. My
intention was to get him through the school curriculum more
efficiently. But he didn't want lessons of any kind, so, figuring he
was only seven and could always catch up later if he fell behind in
any subject, my wife and I gave him a year off to do his own thing.
That was more than six years ago. He never returned to a structured
education. He's been too busy learning immersively at the speed of
thought.
Bob
>My son wasn't intentionally unschooled. I agreed to his request to
>
>
> Also, would he be willing to agree to a
> short trial of unschooling? That is how
> our family began homeschooling. My DH
> was reluctant, but was willing to give
> a try, "for a semester." That semester
> was so good that he was willing to let
> us try the "experiment" for another
> semester, and another...
>
>
quit school because the pace of the teaching was so slow compared to
what I knew was possible it was like watching grass grow. My
intention was to get him through the school curriculum more
efficiently. But he didn't want lessons of any kind, so, figuring he
was only seven and could always catch up later if he fell behind in
any subject, my wife and I gave him a year off to do his own thing.
That was more than six years ago. He never returned to a structured
education. He's been too busy learning immersively at the speed of
thought.
Bob