Allowances
Mary Hickman
I have been giving my kids paychecks since about 3, once they stopped
putting it in their mouths or ripping it. I decided to give them 1/2 their
age,( my way of introducing fractions) so at 3 they got $1.50 a week, at 7
they get $3.50 a week. Somewhere along the way I read that money comes in
different ways, gifts, work, dividends, etc. Treat allowances like gifts,
giving $ just because the child is part of the family. I have allowed my
kids to work for $ too, like watch the baby for 15 minute for a quarter. I
do not pay them for regular chores, these are expected. My oldest is great
with $. She has saved for important to her items. She treats those items
very well. She is now saving all her $ for a camera. She thinks at $14.00 a
month she will get her camera a year or so from now. She will stay focused
on the camera, I know her. I have also slit items with her. Scooters are the
rage here and mine do not have them. She started to save, I said we would
split it. She realized a stereo was more important to her, had saved $40.00
already and we went to the store where she proudly got her item. My 5 year
old is just starting to understand his power with money. As he unfolds I'll
share more stories. Oh, my 7 year old has now decided to get her money all
at once at the end of the month. Her choice.
mary (who also has 7,5,2 girl,boy,girl. I think we have special hands delt
to us with our sons sandwiched between sisters)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
putting it in their mouths or ripping it. I decided to give them 1/2 their
age,( my way of introducing fractions) so at 3 they got $1.50 a week, at 7
they get $3.50 a week. Somewhere along the way I read that money comes in
different ways, gifts, work, dividends, etc. Treat allowances like gifts,
giving $ just because the child is part of the family. I have allowed my
kids to work for $ too, like watch the baby for 15 minute for a quarter. I
do not pay them for regular chores, these are expected. My oldest is great
with $. She has saved for important to her items. She treats those items
very well. She is now saving all her $ for a camera. She thinks at $14.00 a
month she will get her camera a year or so from now. She will stay focused
on the camera, I know her. I have also slit items with her. Scooters are the
rage here and mine do not have them. She started to save, I said we would
split it. She realized a stereo was more important to her, had saved $40.00
already and we went to the store where she proudly got her item. My 5 year
old is just starting to understand his power with money. As he unfolds I'll
share more stories. Oh, my 7 year old has now decided to get her money all
at once at the end of the month. Her choice.
mary (who also has 7,5,2 girl,boy,girl. I think we have special hands delt
to us with our sons sandwiched between sisters)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Julie Stauffer
We usually start the kids out about 3 years old, getting a dollar for every
year. We do not tie it to anything other than being a member of the family.
The kids tend to share amongst themselves and are often buying candy for one
another. Dh and I pop for all their activities, movies, etc.. They usually
spend their money for candy, occasionally toys and Adriane just saved up for
a personal CD player.
I have to share an "Aaahhh" moment. We were coming out of Walmart and Zach
(8yo) has a fit. "Who is that guy thinking he's Santa? He doesn't even
look like Santa." Finally figured out he was talking about the Salvation
Army bell ringer. We talked about what the Salvation Army is and what they
do. Zach and Marsie (5yo) walked over and emptied the last remnants of
their allowances into the pot. I almost cried.
Julie
year. We do not tie it to anything other than being a member of the family.
The kids tend to share amongst themselves and are often buying candy for one
another. Dh and I pop for all their activities, movies, etc.. They usually
spend their money for candy, occasionally toys and Adriane just saved up for
a personal CD player.
I have to share an "Aaahhh" moment. We were coming out of Walmart and Zach
(8yo) has a fit. "Who is that guy thinking he's Santa? He doesn't even
look like Santa." Finally figured out he was talking about the Salvation
Army bell ringer. We talked about what the Salvation Army is and what they
do. Zach and Marsie (5yo) walked over and emptied the last remnants of
their allowances into the pot. I almost cried.
Julie
Shira Rocklin
--Holly, who just turned nine, gets an allowance of 75 cents per year of
age, so she was, up to last week, getting $6 a week. Now $6.75.-- From:
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
Was wondering how people calculate what is a good amount for an
allowance. I can see already, with Temima at 3.5, that she would
benefit from an allowance of some sort. She has difficulty
understanding when we need to spend less on spontaneous treats some
weeks (we both enjoy Starbucks... but it adds up, and some weeks my
husband lets me know that we overspent a bit the previous week, and we
ration a bit better that week). I had the idea that we could give her
some small change (she prefers change to bills) each week, enough for
two of the things she likes to get at Starbucks (a specific sort of
cookie), and then when we go there she can decide whether she'd like to
'buy' a cookie that time, and she'll see the quantity of coins becoming
less and less (although she won't really understand the value of each
coin yet). And there will be times where she runs out, and I will
gladly help her. And if she wants to save the money instead, I'll still
gladly buy her cookies, within our means, just like how I am with myself
and my treats. I thought that doing this might help give meaning to the
few times when I explain that we shouldn't get any more treats that
day/week.
So, I was thinking about quantity of allowances, and I wanted to know
how Sandra came to the 75 cents/per year of age, and what other methods
other parents chose.
Or, if this has been discussed a lot, point me to any web pages that
would be helpful to read.
age, so she was, up to last week, getting $6 a week. Now $6.75.-- From:
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
Was wondering how people calculate what is a good amount for an
allowance. I can see already, with Temima at 3.5, that she would
benefit from an allowance of some sort. She has difficulty
understanding when we need to spend less on spontaneous treats some
weeks (we both enjoy Starbucks... but it adds up, and some weeks my
husband lets me know that we overspent a bit the previous week, and we
ration a bit better that week). I had the idea that we could give her
some small change (she prefers change to bills) each week, enough for
two of the things she likes to get at Starbucks (a specific sort of
cookie), and then when we go there she can decide whether she'd like to
'buy' a cookie that time, and she'll see the quantity of coins becoming
less and less (although she won't really understand the value of each
coin yet). And there will be times where she runs out, and I will
gladly help her. And if she wants to save the money instead, I'll still
gladly buy her cookies, within our means, just like how I am with myself
and my treats. I thought that doing this might help give meaning to the
few times when I explain that we shouldn't get any more treats that
day/week.
So, I was thinking about quantity of allowances, and I wanted to know
how Sandra came to the 75 cents/per year of age, and what other methods
other parents chose.
Or, if this has been discussed a lot, point me to any web pages that
would be helpful to read.
Sandra Dodd
We read about a family that gave a dollar per year of age, but we
couldn't afford a dollar, so we went with 75 cents. Turned out the
kids learned a lot of mathematical factoring from that. And every
few years it came out to some even dollar amount.
http://sandradodd.com/allowance
Here's a collection from another time it was discussed. If there's
good stuff this time, I might add some!
Sandra
couldn't afford a dollar, so we went with 75 cents. Turned out the
kids learned a lot of mathematical factoring from that. And every
few years it came out to some even dollar amount.
http://sandradodd.com/allowance
Here's a collection from another time it was discussed. If there's
good stuff this time, I might add some!
Sandra
Dana Hayden
***Was wondering how people calculate what is a good amount for an
13 and 5. I had been reading and learning more about personal finance and
decided I really wanted to give the kids some opportunities to make
financial decisions. I had read a book about kids and finances; that author
suggested agreeing on an amount for kids to *spend* and to *save*.
We pay monthly, on our *payday*. Our kids keep half for walking around money
and put half in their savings accounts. It has worked great for our family.
The older kids understand the benefits of saving up for a big thing and have
purchased their own Wii, iPods, PSP, computer components, RockBand and other
games. My oldest recently paid for a SCUBA certification. My middle daughter
is very frugal and often has months worth of spending money in her wallet.
For my youngest it has really helped with outings and the asking for things
that she wants - I just have to remember to bring her wallet along with us.
They have also learned about compounding interest and have moved part of
their savings to Saver's Club certificates at our credit union to earn a bit
more. They love getting their statements in the mail and seeing the growth
over the years.
I also think it contributes to their generosity.
Dana
> allowance. ***We began using the $1 per year of age about 8 years ago; my kids are now 16,
>
13 and 5. I had been reading and learning more about personal finance and
decided I really wanted to give the kids some opportunities to make
financial decisions. I had read a book about kids and finances; that author
suggested agreeing on an amount for kids to *spend* and to *save*.
We pay monthly, on our *payday*. Our kids keep half for walking around money
and put half in their savings accounts. It has worked great for our family.
The older kids understand the benefits of saving up for a big thing and have
purchased their own Wii, iPods, PSP, computer components, RockBand and other
games. My oldest recently paid for a SCUBA certification. My middle daughter
is very frugal and often has months worth of spending money in her wallet.
For my youngest it has really helped with outings and the asking for things
that she wants - I just have to remember to bring her wallet along with us.
They have also learned about compounding interest and have moved part of
their savings to Saver's Club certificates at our credit union to earn a bit
more. They love getting their statements in the mail and seeing the growth
over the years.
I also think it contributes to their generosity.
Dana
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Vicki Dennis
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
vicki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>:-)
>
> We read about a family that gave a dollar per year of age, but we
> couldn't afford a dollar, so we went with 75 cents. Turned out the
> kids learned a lot of mathematical factoring from that. And every
> few years it came out to some even dollar amount.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/allowance
>
> Here's a collection from another time it was discussed. If there's
> good stuff this time, I might add some!
>
> Sandra
>
>
> Try http://sandradodd.com/math/allowance
vicki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Sandra Dodd
Thanks, Vicki.
About families giving kids allowance but requiring them to put some in
savings or in the offering plate at church, it seems to me more about
control than learning, on the surface at least. Why not on allowance
day (a month is a LONG long time for a little kid to wait) the parents
who want some money to go into savings just do that then? Give the
kid $10 or whatever and tell him you also put $5 in savings or
whatever it is?
Even my husband isn't given his gross paycheck and then made to give
back the social security and state tax, federal tax, loan payment,
insurance premium and workman's comp.
Sandra
About families giving kids allowance but requiring them to put some in
savings or in the offering plate at church, it seems to me more about
control than learning, on the surface at least. Why not on allowance
day (a month is a LONG long time for a little kid to wait) the parents
who want some money to go into savings just do that then? Give the
kid $10 or whatever and tell him you also put $5 in savings or
whatever it is?
Even my husband isn't given his gross paycheck and then made to give
back the social security and state tax, federal tax, loan payment,
insurance premium and workman's comp.
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
Jayn (10) gets no allowance, although she does earn money from her earrings
sales - I think she has about $25.
When we tried an allowance for her about two years ago I think, my idea was
to give her the feeling of more control over her own purchasing, and at the
same time make it enough that she could buy her dolls when she wanted - so
that if she decided the expensive doll was worth saving up for she could.
Despite Jayn's initial enthusiasm for the idea, it didn't work for her. She
became very stressed and upset with the idea of her paying for her own toys.
She didn't want to be the person handing it to the cashier, but she didn't
want me to undertake that either. But it wasn't even as simple as that. When
she understood that the purpose of her allowance was for her to pay for the
dolls from it, she just cried and cried.
She wanted me to continue to buy her dolls for her when we could afford it.
(All our purchases have been curtailed a lot recently with the downturn in
our finances.) She didn't want to have an allowance. She wants to ask for
dolls, or cookies, or candy at the store and I will pay (or Daddy).
She is interested in the numbers - the comparative costs of different things
and how the dolls compare to our other purchases like food or rent. She is
perfectly happy to accept a dollar limit on what can be spent today. She
understands the concept of a budget. But the idea of an allowance is just
too much responsibility or something.
I think she just wants to feel like we give her the things we give her. So
as much as an allowance sounded good, for all the useful learning
experiences that allowances are designed to offer, it didn't work here.
But for a 3.5 year old - what we used to do was compare the costs of some
things to the cost of familiar and valued things. For example, how a tray of
meat cost the same as one regular Barbie (~$10) or how the collector Barbie
was the same price as 10 of the regular.
So I buy the stuff for her as possible, and she sweetly offers us her
savings for our household expenses. They are kinda on paper savings, since
her balance and mine are mixed up in my Paypal. But I do have the records of
her sales so if she asks for the money I can add it up and pull it out of
Paypal for her.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sales - I think she has about $25.
When we tried an allowance for her about two years ago I think, my idea was
to give her the feeling of more control over her own purchasing, and at the
same time make it enough that she could buy her dolls when she wanted - so
that if she decided the expensive doll was worth saving up for she could.
Despite Jayn's initial enthusiasm for the idea, it didn't work for her. She
became very stressed and upset with the idea of her paying for her own toys.
She didn't want to be the person handing it to the cashier, but she didn't
want me to undertake that either. But it wasn't even as simple as that. When
she understood that the purpose of her allowance was for her to pay for the
dolls from it, she just cried and cried.
She wanted me to continue to buy her dolls for her when we could afford it.
(All our purchases have been curtailed a lot recently with the downturn in
our finances.) She didn't want to have an allowance. She wants to ask for
dolls, or cookies, or candy at the store and I will pay (or Daddy).
She is interested in the numbers - the comparative costs of different things
and how the dolls compare to our other purchases like food or rent. She is
perfectly happy to accept a dollar limit on what can be spent today. She
understands the concept of a budget. But the idea of an allowance is just
too much responsibility or something.
I think she just wants to feel like we give her the things we give her. So
as much as an allowance sounded good, for all the useful learning
experiences that allowances are designed to offer, it didn't work here.
But for a 3.5 year old - what we used to do was compare the costs of some
things to the cost of familiar and valued things. For example, how a tray of
meat cost the same as one regular Barbie (~$10) or how the collector Barbie
was the same price as 10 of the regular.
So I buy the stuff for her as possible, and she sweetly offers us her
savings for our household expenses. They are kinda on paper savings, since
her balance and mine are mixed up in my Paypal. But I do have the records of
her sales so if she asks for the money I can add it up and pull it out of
Paypal for her.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
--Treat allowances like gifts, giving $ just because the child is part
of the family. I have allowed my kids to work for $ too, like watch the
baby for 15 minute for a quarter. I do not pay them for regular chores,
these are expected. --
This was from that page. I would guess the part about chores being
expected wasn't really reflective of unschooling?
If a person does pay for chores, or babysitting the baby, does that mean
they will only do those things if renumerated? I remember being that
way with my parents... since they payed me to do some things, holding my
allowances against my chores... eventually I started asking to be paid
extra for any extra work done, or I refused to do it.
About chores - parental mindset. Should we be very careful not to
equate giving money to someone for doing a chore to expecting them to do
the chore in order to be paid? My parents paid me for some chores, but
I HAD to do them, it wasn't something I could skip, and the payment was
a bribe, I guess, since it was a piece of my allowance. I don't want to
do that.
And more about mindset and chores. Requiring children to do chores
wouldn't be unschooling. What is the relationship between asking
someone to help you out with some chore once in a while, or even
regularly, if they seem to want to help, and then having other chores
where you offer to pay them? Why pay for some and not all?
How about inflation? What I got from the various $$ amounts, multiplied
by years, was that that basic dollar amount seems to be consistently
similar to the cost of a chocolate bar or a bit of candy or something
small like that. It doesn't make sense to give them so little that they
can't do anything with it... and children can appreciate the value of a
candy bar, right? So, I'd put the current basic dollar amount somewhere
around $1.15 Canadian, most candy bars cost that much.
Also, about giving charity. Judaism has a tradition that Jews should
give 10 percent of their income to charity, and we keep a tzedakah box
(tin can with a slit for money that goes to charity) around. Can we
tell her of the tradition (she already loves to put coins in there),
without being coercive or forcing it? I'd like to say to her that we
have such a tradition, and then since she can't do math yet, maybe take
one out of ten coins and separate them to show her how many it would
mean, and then let her decide if she wants to put that into the box, or
less, or more, or none.
of the family. I have allowed my kids to work for $ too, like watch the
baby for 15 minute for a quarter. I do not pay them for regular chores,
these are expected. --
This was from that page. I would guess the part about chores being
expected wasn't really reflective of unschooling?
If a person does pay for chores, or babysitting the baby, does that mean
they will only do those things if renumerated? I remember being that
way with my parents... since they payed me to do some things, holding my
allowances against my chores... eventually I started asking to be paid
extra for any extra work done, or I refused to do it.
About chores - parental mindset. Should we be very careful not to
equate giving money to someone for doing a chore to expecting them to do
the chore in order to be paid? My parents paid me for some chores, but
I HAD to do them, it wasn't something I could skip, and the payment was
a bribe, I guess, since it was a piece of my allowance. I don't want to
do that.
And more about mindset and chores. Requiring children to do chores
wouldn't be unschooling. What is the relationship between asking
someone to help you out with some chore once in a while, or even
regularly, if they seem to want to help, and then having other chores
where you offer to pay them? Why pay for some and not all?
How about inflation? What I got from the various $$ amounts, multiplied
by years, was that that basic dollar amount seems to be consistently
similar to the cost of a chocolate bar or a bit of candy or something
small like that. It doesn't make sense to give them so little that they
can't do anything with it... and children can appreciate the value of a
candy bar, right? So, I'd put the current basic dollar amount somewhere
around $1.15 Canadian, most candy bars cost that much.
Also, about giving charity. Judaism has a tradition that Jews should
give 10 percent of their income to charity, and we keep a tzedakah box
(tin can with a slit for money that goes to charity) around. Can we
tell her of the tradition (she already loves to put coins in there),
without being coercive or forcing it? I'd like to say to her that we
have such a tradition, and then since she can't do math yet, maybe take
one out of ten coins and separate them to show her how many it would
mean, and then let her decide if she wants to put that into the box, or
less, or more, or none.
Dana Hayden
I should have added: we don't attach chores to payday - it's just money;
and we make the savings deposit, so they aren't handing it back. It is a way
to handle/play with some money before they are old enough to earn it from
work.
Dana
and we make the savings deposit, so they aren't handing it back. It is a way
to handle/play with some money before they are old enough to earn it from
work.
Dana
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Dana Hayden <dana1095@...> wrote:
>
> ***Was wondering how people calculate what is a good amount for an
>
>> allowance. ***
>>
>
> We began using the $1 per year of age about 8 years ago; my kids are now
> 16, 13 and 5. I had been reading and learning more about personal finance
> and decided I really wanted to give the kids some opportunities to make
> financial decisions. I had read a book about kids and finances; that author
> suggested agreeing on an amount for kids to *spend* and to *save*.
>
> We pay monthly, on our *payday*. Our kids keep half for walking around
> money and put half in their savings accounts. It has worked great for our
> family. The older kids understand the benefits of saving up for a big thing
> and have purchased their own Wii, iPods, PSP, computer components, RockBand
> and other games. My oldest recently paid for a SCUBA certification. My
> middle daughter is very frugal and often has months worth of spending money
> in her wallet. For my youngest it has really helped with outings and the
> asking for things that she wants - I just have to remember to bring her
> wallet along with us.
>
> They have also learned about compounding interest and have moved part of
> their savings to Saver's Club certificates at our credit union to earn a bit
> more. They love getting their statements in the mail and seeing the growth
> over the years.
>
> I also think it contributes to their generosity.
>
> Dana
>
>>
>>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Glenda
We've given our son an allowance from around age 4 or 5 (he's 11-1/2 now). We started off with $1 / week based on his age, and gave it to him weekly, for him to spend however he wished. It wasn't the only money funding things for him though, because we still bought things for him too. I know some parents make their kids pay for everything they want out of their allowance, but we've never done that. When we can afford to buy "wants" for any of us, we do -- we don't treat him any differently than we do ourselves.
At some point in recent years, I think about the time he really got into gaming, we switched to a flat amount of $50 / month, and he likes getting it once a month. If he wants a game that is $50 or $60 (typical costs for Xbox 360 and PS3 games), we'll go ahead and make up the difference so that he doesn't have to save a month and into the next month. All in all, he's really good with his money, and that's absolutely come from the trial and error of having his own money to spend.
He sometimes asks about doing things around here to earn a little extra money, but we honestly just don't often have "extra" stuff that needs to be done. When he's tall enough to push the mower, if he wants to earn money by mowing, he can do that -- that's a job we'd hire out if neither hubby nor I had the time (or inclination) to do it. In the fall when all the leaves have fallen, if kiddo's looking to earn some bucks, I'll offer to pay him if he wants to help me rake and pick up leaves -- sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't (but I actually enjoy doing it, so it's no sweat off my nose if he's not interested). I would pay him to wash the cars or the dogs if he wanted to do that -- those are also things we pay to have done.
---About families giving kids allowance but requiring them to put some in
savings or in the offering plate at church, it seems to me more about
control than learning, on the surface at least. Why not on allowance
day (a month is a LONG long time for a little kid to wait) the parents
who want some money to go into savings just do that then? Give the
kid $10 or whatever and tell him you also put $5 in savings or
whatever it is?---
I agree. In my opinion, an allowance should be a gift and not be given with strings. My mom gives each of us grown children cash on our birthdays and we're not told that part needs to go into savings (or, if we were churchgoers, that part would go into the collection plate) -- it's given as a gift and we spend it however we wish. That's how I treat allowances.
If parents want kids to put $$$ into the collection plate, they could add that amount to their allowance and designate it as collection plate money. (In other words, build *up* their allowance to offset that amount.) Or, what my parents did when we were churchgoers was they'd hand each of us a buck before the service began and then we put that into the collection plate -- if we were churchgoers this is the option I'd choose.
I agree with Sandra about savings account money. If a parent is insistent money be saved in a child's behalf, the parents should put it into savings and not have it be carved out of the allowance. I think it should be handled as a gift, and, as with an allowance, not have strings attached re: how it's spent. If a child wants to open a savings account and put part or all of their allowance into it, I'd absolutely help them do that -- but that would be savings set aside at *their* wish.
Glenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
At some point in recent years, I think about the time he really got into gaming, we switched to a flat amount of $50 / month, and he likes getting it once a month. If he wants a game that is $50 or $60 (typical costs for Xbox 360 and PS3 games), we'll go ahead and make up the difference so that he doesn't have to save a month and into the next month. All in all, he's really good with his money, and that's absolutely come from the trial and error of having his own money to spend.
He sometimes asks about doing things around here to earn a little extra money, but we honestly just don't often have "extra" stuff that needs to be done. When he's tall enough to push the mower, if he wants to earn money by mowing, he can do that -- that's a job we'd hire out if neither hubby nor I had the time (or inclination) to do it. In the fall when all the leaves have fallen, if kiddo's looking to earn some bucks, I'll offer to pay him if he wants to help me rake and pick up leaves -- sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't (but I actually enjoy doing it, so it's no sweat off my nose if he's not interested). I would pay him to wash the cars or the dogs if he wanted to do that -- those are also things we pay to have done.
---About families giving kids allowance but requiring them to put some in
savings or in the offering plate at church, it seems to me more about
control than learning, on the surface at least. Why not on allowance
day (a month is a LONG long time for a little kid to wait) the parents
who want some money to go into savings just do that then? Give the
kid $10 or whatever and tell him you also put $5 in savings or
whatever it is?---
I agree. In my opinion, an allowance should be a gift and not be given with strings. My mom gives each of us grown children cash on our birthdays and we're not told that part needs to go into savings (or, if we were churchgoers, that part would go into the collection plate) -- it's given as a gift and we spend it however we wish. That's how I treat allowances.
If parents want kids to put $$$ into the collection plate, they could add that amount to their allowance and designate it as collection plate money. (In other words, build *up* their allowance to offset that amount.) Or, what my parents did when we were churchgoers was they'd hand each of us a buck before the service began and then we put that into the collection plate -- if we were churchgoers this is the option I'd choose.
I agree with Sandra about savings account money. If a parent is insistent money be saved in a child's behalf, the parents should put it into savings and not have it be carved out of the allowance. I think it should be handled as a gift, and, as with an allowance, not have strings attached re: how it's spent. If a child wants to open a savings account and put part or all of their allowance into it, I'd absolutely help them do that -- but that would be savings set aside at *their* wish.
Glenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This was from that page. I would guess the part about chores being
expected wasn't really reflective of unschooling? -=-
It means that one person who was in that discussion had that opinion.
"Reflective of unschooling" isn't a good measuring stick.
"Good idea"? That's for each family to decide. "Toward our goals"?
Depends on the family's goals.
-=If a person does pay for chores, or babysitting the baby, does that
mean
they will only do those things if renumerated? -=-
Very likely in many cases.
-=-About chores - parental mindset. Should we be very careful not to
equate giving money to someone for doing a chore to expecting them to do
the chore in order to be paid? -=-
"We" aren't making the decision in your family. You should be careful
to think about all those issues each time you make a decision. <g>
-=-And more about mindset and chores. Requiring children to do chores
wouldn't be unschooling.-=-
Are you saying that a family with chores can't be an unschooling
family Or are you wanting us (what percentage of "us"?) to agree that
the chores note should be removed from the record? Not sure what
you're after with a statement like that.
-=-What is the relationship between asking
someone to help you out with some chore once in a while, or even
regularly, if they seem to want to help, and then having other chores
where you offer to pay them? Why pay for some and not all? -=-
I think if a child wants money and the parents come up with something
for him to do that's easy enough and will benefit the parents (raking
leaves? Washing the truck?) and if the parents want to give him money
to do that so he'll feel he earned money even though he's too young to
get a job, that's not any crime, nor will it derail unschooling. I
gave Holly $20 today for some photoshop artwork she did for me. I
gave Marty's girlfriend $50 to buy materials to make him a costume and
a banner for an upcoming tournament. Will she always want money to
sew for Marty now? She never wanted any before. I think she could
have afforded this, but I wanted to contribute to the project (short
of sewing myself <g>). Holly probably would have done that art for me
anyway, but I was paying for expedited service. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
expected wasn't really reflective of unschooling? -=-
It means that one person who was in that discussion had that opinion.
"Reflective of unschooling" isn't a good measuring stick.
"Good idea"? That's for each family to decide. "Toward our goals"?
Depends on the family's goals.
-=If a person does pay for chores, or babysitting the baby, does that
mean
they will only do those things if renumerated? -=-
Very likely in many cases.
-=-About chores - parental mindset. Should we be very careful not to
equate giving money to someone for doing a chore to expecting them to do
the chore in order to be paid? -=-
"We" aren't making the decision in your family. You should be careful
to think about all those issues each time you make a decision. <g>
-=-And more about mindset and chores. Requiring children to do chores
wouldn't be unschooling.-=-
Are you saying that a family with chores can't be an unschooling
family Or are you wanting us (what percentage of "us"?) to agree that
the chores note should be removed from the record? Not sure what
you're after with a statement like that.
-=-What is the relationship between asking
someone to help you out with some chore once in a while, or even
regularly, if they seem to want to help, and then having other chores
where you offer to pay them? Why pay for some and not all? -=-
I think if a child wants money and the parents come up with something
for him to do that's easy enough and will benefit the parents (raking
leaves? Washing the truck?) and if the parents want to give him money
to do that so he'll feel he earned money even though he's too young to
get a job, that's not any crime, nor will it derail unschooling. I
gave Holly $20 today for some photoshop artwork she did for me. I
gave Marty's girlfriend $50 to buy materials to make him a costume and
a banner for an upcoming tournament. Will she always want money to
sew for Marty now? She never wanted any before. I think she could
have afforded this, but I wanted to contribute to the project (short
of sewing myself <g>). Holly probably would have done that art for me
anyway, but I was paying for expedited service. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
We at first tried the cash for age thing but decided that wasn't very practical.
We based Dylan's money on how often we went shopping (how often he'd be somewhere he could buy the things he was liking) and what he was liking to buy.
We live in a small town so shopping (for toys, movies, video games, books) was done in one of three towns, forty, fifty-five or eighty miles away. We went according to our needs. A couple different times in Dylan's life we were going more frequently when we were taking Dylan's grandfather to his cancer treatments.
When Dylan wanted his own money we thought about what he'd likely want to buy with it and how often he'd get a chance to use it and we gave him money enough for that. So, when he liked Godzilla action figure that could be got at Wal-mart for $5.99 we'd make sure he had enough for an action figure or two for each trip we were likely to make in a month.
When he was mostly buying books (Goosebumps) we made sure he had money for a couple books at a whack because he was reading them fast and one wouldn't last long. When he was mostly buying movies, same deal. This changed if our financial situation changed. David worked as an equipment operator and sometimes had periods of unemployment in the winter months. At those times we all had less spending money.
When I started working to pay vet bills I'd give Dylan what was left after the vet bills and medicine and stashing some in the critter emergency fund.
So, Dylan's spending money has been based on what he wanted, and what was available.
We started and contribute to his savings account ourselves.
When Dylan was thirteen and took a longish trip with my sister into Canada I got him a credit card. He's had it for almost five years now. He has never used it.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We based Dylan's money on how often we went shopping (how often he'd be somewhere he could buy the things he was liking) and what he was liking to buy.
We live in a small town so shopping (for toys, movies, video games, books) was done in one of three towns, forty, fifty-five or eighty miles away. We went according to our needs. A couple different times in Dylan's life we were going more frequently when we were taking Dylan's grandfather to his cancer treatments.
When Dylan wanted his own money we thought about what he'd likely want to buy with it and how often he'd get a chance to use it and we gave him money enough for that. So, when he liked Godzilla action figure that could be got at Wal-mart for $5.99 we'd make sure he had enough for an action figure or two for each trip we were likely to make in a month.
When he was mostly buying books (Goosebumps) we made sure he had money for a couple books at a whack because he was reading them fast and one wouldn't last long. When he was mostly buying movies, same deal. This changed if our financial situation changed. David worked as an equipment operator and sometimes had periods of unemployment in the winter months. At those times we all had less spending money.
When I started working to pay vet bills I'd give Dylan what was left after the vet bills and medicine and stashing some in the critter emergency fund.
So, Dylan's spending money has been based on what he wanted, and what was available.
We started and contribute to his savings account ourselves.
When Dylan was thirteen and took a longish trip with my sister into Canada I got him a credit card. He's had it for almost five years now. He has never used it.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When Dylan was thirteen and took a longish trip with my sister into
Canada I got him a credit card. He's had it for almost five years now.
He has never used it. -=-
I think most mainstream parents would assume you're wrong, or a liar.
When a child is really needy (of affection or attention or honesty or
interaction) they seem to go straight to stealing money from their
mothers' purses (or their dad's wallet, or the change jar). Perhaps
I've oversimplified that, but I've seen it way too many dozens of
times to think I'm not onto something.
I've handed my kids my debit card LOTS of times, and they come back
with the gas receipt, or the groceries and the receipt, or whatever,
but not once has there ever been an odd charge on it. And it's
certainly not because they feared being punished. They weren't needy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Canada I got him a credit card. He's had it for almost five years now.
He has never used it. -=-
I think most mainstream parents would assume you're wrong, or a liar.
When a child is really needy (of affection or attention or honesty or
interaction) they seem to go straight to stealing money from their
mothers' purses (or their dad's wallet, or the change jar). Perhaps
I've oversimplified that, but I've seen it way too many dozens of
times to think I'm not onto something.
I've handed my kids my debit card LOTS of times, and they come back
with the gas receipt, or the groceries and the receipt, or whatever,
but not once has there ever been an odd charge on it. And it's
certainly not because they feared being punished. They weren't needy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***I think most mainstream parents would assume you're wrong, or a liar.***
It turns out I am a liar, but only about the dates. <g>
Dylan was fourteen. He's had the credit card more than three years and has never used it. This is the post I wrote to UnschoolingDiscussion in October 2006.
*Dylan (14) recently went on a trip with my sister. They drove to Canada,
into BC and Alberta. They played and toured and goofed around.
We sent Dylan with wads of cash, a credit card and a debit card. He had
money and he had spending money and he had extra money and he had
just-in-case money. <g>
He came home with wads of cash, didn't use the credit card, didn't use the
debit card. He bought five books at a used book store and two of those
were for me and his dad. He bought a key chain. The other money he spent
was for food and lodging and a surprisingly little amount, too. Though I'd
given my sis gas money up front, she said he offered to pay for gas at every
stop.
So for anyone who is afeared that being generous with kids will result in
selfishness and irresponsible spending, here's one account of a teen with
gobs of cash who came home and gave most of it back to his folks. <g> *
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It turns out I am a liar, but only about the dates. <g>
Dylan was fourteen. He's had the credit card more than three years and has never used it. This is the post I wrote to UnschoolingDiscussion in October 2006.
*Dylan (14) recently went on a trip with my sister. They drove to Canada,
into BC and Alberta. They played and toured and goofed around.
We sent Dylan with wads of cash, a credit card and a debit card. He had
money and he had spending money and he had extra money and he had
just-in-case money. <g>
He came home with wads of cash, didn't use the credit card, didn't use the
debit card. He bought five books at a used book store and two of those
were for me and his dad. He bought a key chain. The other money he spent
was for food and lodging and a surprisingly little amount, too. Though I'd
given my sis gas money up front, she said he offered to pay for gas at every
stop.
So for anyone who is afeared that being generous with kids will result in
selfishness and irresponsible spending, here's one account of a teen with
gobs of cash who came home and gave most of it back to his folks. <g> *
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
<-=-And more about mindset and chores. Requiring children to do chores
wouldn't be unschooling.-=->
There are some things that are clearly "schooling." If you make your child
do math worksheets every day, that is schooling. If you require a child to
read for 15 minutes every day, that is schooling.
For some people, when they are unschooling, they get to really thinking
about how it is working and why it works so well and, as they more and more
deeply understand how children really learn, it makes sense that it isn't
just reading and writing and 'rithmetic that is best learned in unschoolish
ways, but everything else, too. So then we have an extension of what started
out as unschooling to something that is often called radical unschooling.
So asking the question of whether requiring children to do chores is really
unschooling is not going to get a yes or no answer. The answer is - of
course people who require chores can still be unschooling.
But another answer is that really taking a deep look at unschooling
principles and applying them to learning to care for a home and the things
in a home will probably mean dropping chore requirements just like you
dropped math and reading requirements. Or maybe not - maybe that aspect of
unschooling won't become apparent to you. I know a lot of people who
unschool and don't allow television and do have chores. I wouldn't not say
they are not unschooling.
This whole radical unschooling approach is still developing. Those of us who
started unschooling 15 years ago, or more, didn't have these ideas being
presented to us. When Mary Griffith was writing, "The Unschooling Handbook,"
in the mid-1990s, these ideas were not much out there, being talked about as
if they were part of unschooling. The subtitle of her book is, "Using the
Whole World as Your Child's Classroom." The emphasis is clearly on learning
school-subject type of stuff in better-than-school kinds of ways.
Many long-time unschoolers, some among the pioneers of unschooling, would
think radical unschooling is going too far. I've heard them call it
"unparenting." They don't get it and can't really imagine how it works. I
would never want to say they weren't unschooling just because they didn't
extend unschooling as far as some of us are doing, these days. I do think
all of what we're supporting and promoting was inherent in what John Holt
wrote and that it springs from the same principles - applies to learning in
general, not just academics. I mean, even John Holt wrote about bedtimes, so
he saw that part of it. And he was clearly on the road of taking his ideas
very far - but those who were homeschooling at the same time he was alive
and doing his writing were not necessarily on the same trajectory that he
was. Many of them combined free school ideas (Summerhill) with John Holt's
ideas along with suspicion of mass media, big corporations, agribusiness,
and politicians. It was part of being "anti-establishment" for them, as much
as a new style of parenting.
And, even today, I don't like it that unschoolers who still have more
conventional parenting styles would be told or made to feel that they aren't
real unschoolers. I want to be able to talk about extending unschooling to
all kinds of learning, to all aspects of life, without feeling like I am
turning people away from unschooling because they feel like they're being
excluded from some kind of in-group.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wouldn't be unschooling.-=->
There are some things that are clearly "schooling." If you make your child
do math worksheets every day, that is schooling. If you require a child to
read for 15 minutes every day, that is schooling.
For some people, when they are unschooling, they get to really thinking
about how it is working and why it works so well and, as they more and more
deeply understand how children really learn, it makes sense that it isn't
just reading and writing and 'rithmetic that is best learned in unschoolish
ways, but everything else, too. So then we have an extension of what started
out as unschooling to something that is often called radical unschooling.
So asking the question of whether requiring children to do chores is really
unschooling is not going to get a yes or no answer. The answer is - of
course people who require chores can still be unschooling.
But another answer is that really taking a deep look at unschooling
principles and applying them to learning to care for a home and the things
in a home will probably mean dropping chore requirements just like you
dropped math and reading requirements. Or maybe not - maybe that aspect of
unschooling won't become apparent to you. I know a lot of people who
unschool and don't allow television and do have chores. I wouldn't not say
they are not unschooling.
This whole radical unschooling approach is still developing. Those of us who
started unschooling 15 years ago, or more, didn't have these ideas being
presented to us. When Mary Griffith was writing, "The Unschooling Handbook,"
in the mid-1990s, these ideas were not much out there, being talked about as
if they were part of unschooling. The subtitle of her book is, "Using the
Whole World as Your Child's Classroom." The emphasis is clearly on learning
school-subject type of stuff in better-than-school kinds of ways.
Many long-time unschoolers, some among the pioneers of unschooling, would
think radical unschooling is going too far. I've heard them call it
"unparenting." They don't get it and can't really imagine how it works. I
would never want to say they weren't unschooling just because they didn't
extend unschooling as far as some of us are doing, these days. I do think
all of what we're supporting and promoting was inherent in what John Holt
wrote and that it springs from the same principles - applies to learning in
general, not just academics. I mean, even John Holt wrote about bedtimes, so
he saw that part of it. And he was clearly on the road of taking his ideas
very far - but those who were homeschooling at the same time he was alive
and doing his writing were not necessarily on the same trajectory that he
was. Many of them combined free school ideas (Summerhill) with John Holt's
ideas along with suspicion of mass media, big corporations, agribusiness,
and politicians. It was part of being "anti-establishment" for them, as much
as a new style of parenting.
And, even today, I don't like it that unschoolers who still have more
conventional parenting styles would be told or made to feel that they aren't
real unschoolers. I want to be able to talk about extending unschooling to
all kinds of learning, to all aspects of life, without feeling like I am
turning people away from unschooling because they feel like they're being
excluded from some kind of in-group.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***When we got in the car he said he had left his money at home cause he was saving up for a Birthday present for his sister and didnt want to use it. A few minutes later he said, "Do you think we should love God more than our family?" ***
Does he know where tithing money goes to? It doesn't go to God, it goes to the church, to pay salaries, to keep a building, and to fund mission trips and such. Honestly, when I was a kid that part had confused me for a while and I would've been really pissed if someone hadn't told me that the money that I put in the collection plate didn't go directly to God, but went to the church.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Does he know where tithing money goes to? It doesn't go to God, it goes to the church, to pay salaries, to keep a building, and to fund mission trips and such. Honestly, when I was a kid that part had confused me for a while and I would've been really pissed if someone hadn't told me that the money that I put in the collection plate didn't go directly to God, but went to the church.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
<< I've handed my kids my debit card LOTS of times, and they come back
with the gas receipt, or the groceries and the receipt, or whatever,
but not once has there ever been an odd charge on it. And it's
certainly not because they feared being punished. They weren't needy.
all this time and she's now 22. She uses it at college to get cash for food
or to pay for books or other expenses. She doesn't have the mentality to
think of taking advantage of it - she just wouldn't even think of doing
that. She's careful with money. When she spent a semester in France, she had
a credit card and debit card and I still had to encourage her to spend some
money on buying things. She needed a better pair of shoes - walking a LOT -
and also saw some shoes she thought were really just very pretty. She bought
the practical ones, but I had to remind her and support her in buying the
pretty ones because she WAS in PARIS for goodness' sake and buying a pretty
pair of shoes in a Paris shop was a cool thing to do. They weren't super
expensive or anything, but she didn't really "need" them and was aware that
the whole trip had cost us a lot and was trying to be super super careful
with spending money there.
Rosie and Roya both had jobs really young and had their own money so we got
them debit cards. Roya got a credit card when she turned 18, based on her
employment history. When Rosie wanted to get one, about a year ago, after
she turned 18, we thought she could get it on her own, too, but her job paid
cash under-the-table and so they didn't count her as being employed. We put
$500 into an account and they gave her a credit card with a $500 limit. Then
she told her employer she wanted to be paid legally and a year has gone by
so now she can ask to have the credit card sort of disconnected from that
$500 that has been sitting in the related account.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with the gas receipt, or the groceries and the receipt, or whatever,
but not once has there ever been an odd charge on it. And it's
certainly not because they feared being punished. They weren't needy.
>>I gave Roxana my debit card a LONG time ago - she was 13 or 14. She's had it
all this time and she's now 22. She uses it at college to get cash for food
or to pay for books or other expenses. She doesn't have the mentality to
think of taking advantage of it - she just wouldn't even think of doing
that. She's careful with money. When she spent a semester in France, she had
a credit card and debit card and I still had to encourage her to spend some
money on buying things. She needed a better pair of shoes - walking a LOT -
and also saw some shoes she thought were really just very pretty. She bought
the practical ones, but I had to remind her and support her in buying the
pretty ones because she WAS in PARIS for goodness' sake and buying a pretty
pair of shoes in a Paris shop was a cool thing to do. They weren't super
expensive or anything, but she didn't really "need" them and was aware that
the whole trip had cost us a lot and was trying to be super super careful
with spending money there.
Rosie and Roya both had jobs really young and had their own money so we got
them debit cards. Roya got a credit card when she turned 18, based on her
employment history. When Rosie wanted to get one, about a year ago, after
she turned 18, we thought she could get it on her own, too, but her job paid
cash under-the-table and so they didn't count her as being employed. We put
$500 into an account and they gave her a credit card with a $500 limit. Then
she told her employer she wanted to be paid legally and a year has gone by
so now she can ask to have the credit card sort of disconnected from that
$500 that has been sitting in the related account.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Will B
Your husband and every American should be given their gross paycheck and then be "made" to pay, not give back, all those taxes and "benefits." If this were the case, then you can bet people would have a whole lot stronger attitude about taxation. Of course, the fact that we all so willingly allow this system of tax collection to exits is a direct reflection of our schooled condition.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Vicki.
>
> About families giving kids allowance but requiring them to put some in
> savings or in the offering plate at church, it seems to me more about
> control than learning, on the surface at least. Why not on allowance
> day (a month is a LONG long time for a little kid to wait) the parents
> who want some money to go into savings just do that then? Give the
> kid $10 or whatever and tell him you also put $5 in savings or
> whatever it is?
>
> Even my husband isn't given his gross paycheck and then made to give
> back the social security and state tax, federal tax, loan payment,
> insurance premium and workman's comp.
>
> Sandra
>
Jenny Cyphers
***And more about mindset and chores. Requiring children to do chores
wouldn't be unschooling. What is the relationship between asking
someone to help you out with some chore once in a while, or even
regularly, if they seem to want to help, and then having other chores
where you offer to pay them? Why pay for some and not all? ***
I think having or not having chores, has little to do with unschooling, just like there are people who unschool and don't have TV, there are people who unschool and have chores. The focus is more about the relationship. If requiring chores isn't negatively impacting the relationship, then unschooling can still flourish. If it IS negatively impacting the relationship, then it's definitely something to reconsider and perhaps eliminate.
I don't require my kids to do chores. I ask them when I need help and sometimes they are willing to help and sometimes they aren't, mostly they are if I'm being reasonable.
Some household things are yearly, or big, or not the everyday stuff. I'd pay either of my kids to clean up dog poo or rake leaves or weed in the yard or wash cars. So far, neither of them have taken me up on the offer. We have always given the kids an allowance until recently because we simply can't afford it. When we DO have money, we give them some. Usually $15-20 for our oldest and $5-10 for the younger depending on what we have and what we can afford. When they were getting a regular allowance, Chamille got $15 directly deposited into her account and Margaux got $5 in hand, and then we'd generally give them a $5 bill if they were going out somewhere, so it was on top of their allowance, but money we budgeted to have available.
Both of our girls have saved and spent their money. Chamille is old enough to get a job, but she doesn't want one. She's got this really great design that she created that I'd like to help her sell, but that hasn't happened yet. It's a cute design, probably best for a t-shirt logo or something. She doesn't seem all that interested in doing it, so I'm working on doing it for her since I've been in that business before and I have a general idea how it works and I'm certain it's salable. The investment is time and money on my part. It will happen, and when it does, she will be the one making money from it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wouldn't be unschooling. What is the relationship between asking
someone to help you out with some chore once in a while, or even
regularly, if they seem to want to help, and then having other chores
where you offer to pay them? Why pay for some and not all? ***
I think having or not having chores, has little to do with unschooling, just like there are people who unschool and don't have TV, there are people who unschool and have chores. The focus is more about the relationship. If requiring chores isn't negatively impacting the relationship, then unschooling can still flourish. If it IS negatively impacting the relationship, then it's definitely something to reconsider and perhaps eliminate.
I don't require my kids to do chores. I ask them when I need help and sometimes they are willing to help and sometimes they aren't, mostly they are if I'm being reasonable.
Some household things are yearly, or big, or not the everyday stuff. I'd pay either of my kids to clean up dog poo or rake leaves or weed in the yard or wash cars. So far, neither of them have taken me up on the offer. We have always given the kids an allowance until recently because we simply can't afford it. When we DO have money, we give them some. Usually $15-20 for our oldest and $5-10 for the younger depending on what we have and what we can afford. When they were getting a regular allowance, Chamille got $15 directly deposited into her account and Margaux got $5 in hand, and then we'd generally give them a $5 bill if they were going out somewhere, so it was on top of their allowance, but money we budgeted to have available.
Both of our girls have saved and spent their money. Chamille is old enough to get a job, but she doesn't want one. She's got this really great design that she created that I'd like to help her sell, but that hasn't happened yet. It's a cute design, probably best for a t-shirt logo or something. She doesn't seem all that interested in doing it, so I'm working on doing it for her since I've been in that business before and I have a general idea how it works and I'm certain it's salable. The investment is time and money on my part. It will happen, and when it does, she will be the one making money from it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Your husband and every American should be given their gross
paycheck and then be "made" to pay, not give back, all those taxes and
"benefits." If this were the case, then you can bet people would have
a whole lot stronger attitude about taxation. Of course, the fact that
we all so willingly allow this system of tax collection to exits is a
direct reflection of our schooled condition. -=-
So I think you're supporting the idea that a child should be given his
"gross allowance," and then "made" to pay some into savings and some
into the collection plate?
-=- the fact that we all so willingly allow this system of tax
collection to exits is a direct reflection of our schooled condition.-=-
I think the fact that you came to an unschooling discussion and told
me my husband should be "made" to do ANYthing is worse, for the
purposes of considering unschooling.
No one "made" my husband take that job, and he didn't take the job
without knowing what would be taken from his checks. And the
"benefits" you have put into "quotation marks" ARE benefits--most of
them optional, which he and I have researched and opted into or out
of. We have three choices for heal insurance, or can opt out. We
have dental and vision insurance. Is that a direct reflection of our
schooled condition, do you think?
If there was something in your response that was intended to help
people see more clarity in and around unschooling, please rephrase. I
missed it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
paycheck and then be "made" to pay, not give back, all those taxes and
"benefits." If this were the case, then you can bet people would have
a whole lot stronger attitude about taxation. Of course, the fact that
we all so willingly allow this system of tax collection to exits is a
direct reflection of our schooled condition. -=-
So I think you're supporting the idea that a child should be given his
"gross allowance," and then "made" to pay some into savings and some
into the collection plate?
-=- the fact that we all so willingly allow this system of tax
collection to exits is a direct reflection of our schooled condition.-=-
I think the fact that you came to an unschooling discussion and told
me my husband should be "made" to do ANYthing is worse, for the
purposes of considering unschooling.
No one "made" my husband take that job, and he didn't take the job
without knowing what would be taken from his checks. And the
"benefits" you have put into "quotation marks" ARE benefits--most of
them optional, which he and I have researched and opted into or out
of. We have three choices for heal insurance, or can opt out. We
have dental and vision insurance. Is that a direct reflection of our
schooled condition, do you think?
If there was something in your response that was intended to help
people see more clarity in and around unschooling, please rephrase. I
missed it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***When a child is really needy (of affection or attention or honesty or
interaction) they seem to go straight to stealing money from their
mothers' purses (or their dad's wallet, or the change jar). Perhaps
I've oversimplified that, but I've seen it way too many dozens of
times to think I'm not onto something.***
I've seen it too! I'll add stingy parents on that list. Sometimes parents have money, maybe not a lot, but spend it on themselves and then force their kids to clean up all the cans and recycling and tell them they can have the bottle deposit money for the reward. What I see even more frequently are kids who's parents give them lunch money for buying school lunches and the kids skipping out on eating and using the money for things they want, other than food. Depending on what school a kid goes to, that can make a nice $50 allowance, if they can handle going without food.
Chamille has never, not one single time taken money from me or her dad, she has never spent money on something other than what she got money for. She's not desperate for money, even when we don't have any and *I* am feeling desperate. She's generous and kind when she has money and her parents don't.
When my husband and I used to leave the kids at home here and there to go out, we'd pay Chamille for watching her sister and we'd pay Margaux to be good for her. The last time we did that, we bought them goodies from the store instead of giving them cash, since the goodies were extra and we couldn't afford both cash and goodies.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
interaction) they seem to go straight to stealing money from their
mothers' purses (or their dad's wallet, or the change jar). Perhaps
I've oversimplified that, but I've seen it way too many dozens of
times to think I'm not onto something.***
I've seen it too! I'll add stingy parents on that list. Sometimes parents have money, maybe not a lot, but spend it on themselves and then force their kids to clean up all the cans and recycling and tell them they can have the bottle deposit money for the reward. What I see even more frequently are kids who's parents give them lunch money for buying school lunches and the kids skipping out on eating and using the money for things they want, other than food. Depending on what school a kid goes to, that can make a nice $50 allowance, if they can handle going without food.
Chamille has never, not one single time taken money from me or her dad, she has never spent money on something other than what she got money for. She's not desperate for money, even when we don't have any and *I* am feeling desperate. She's generous and kind when she has money and her parents don't.
When my husband and I used to leave the kids at home here and there to go out, we'd pay Chamille for watching her sister and we'd pay Margaux to be good for her. The last time we did that, we bought them goodies from the store instead of giving them cash, since the goodies were extra and we couldn't afford both cash and goodies.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Chamille has never, not one single time taken money from me or her
dad, she has never spent money on something other than what she got
money for. She's not desperate for money, even when we don't have any
and *I* am feeling desperate. She's generous and kind when she has
money and her parents don't. -=-
My kids too.
I'm not sure this state can be achieved when parents come to
unschooling and peaceful parenting later in their children's lives.
Lots of other benefits can, but this one seems to me iffy. We were
generous with our kids before they knew a nickel from a dime, and they
never built up a head of "Oooooh... I'll show them..." about anything.
Marty turned 21 in January. His girlfriend is 23. She used to go to
casinos for fun, but because Marty wasn't 21, she didn't for most of a
year! But she persuaded him to celebrate his birthday on the strip in
Las Vegas. Three other friends went with them.
For a gift, Keith and I gave him $200 cash. Kirby (I found out later)
did the same thing. Kirby had been invited but didn't want to go,
even though he was in New Mexico for a conference in Santa Fe. But he
gave Marty $200. That's a pretty generous gift for a non-gambling 23
year old to give his newly-21-year-old brother.
Marty budgetted that money and some he already had by the day, however
much to spend on food and rides and to gamble each day. He never
borrowed from his next day's allotment. Not only that, he came back
with his last day's amount. So on one hand, he used up almost all his
money. It wasn't "squandered," though, because it was earmarked for
Las Vegas from the beginning. It was a birthday bash, and as such it
was by all accounts very successful! And he came back, having saved
some of the money.
I can't say that's any intended or direct result of unschooling, and
partly it's a genetic money-obsession of sorts that runs in Keith's
family (and is like a disease with one of his brothers). But in it
all I saw joy and even frugality.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dad, she has never spent money on something other than what she got
money for. She's not desperate for money, even when we don't have any
and *I* am feeling desperate. She's generous and kind when she has
money and her parents don't. -=-
My kids too.
I'm not sure this state can be achieved when parents come to
unschooling and peaceful parenting later in their children's lives.
Lots of other benefits can, but this one seems to me iffy. We were
generous with our kids before they knew a nickel from a dime, and they
never built up a head of "Oooooh... I'll show them..." about anything.
Marty turned 21 in January. His girlfriend is 23. She used to go to
casinos for fun, but because Marty wasn't 21, she didn't for most of a
year! But she persuaded him to celebrate his birthday on the strip in
Las Vegas. Three other friends went with them.
For a gift, Keith and I gave him $200 cash. Kirby (I found out later)
did the same thing. Kirby had been invited but didn't want to go,
even though he was in New Mexico for a conference in Santa Fe. But he
gave Marty $200. That's a pretty generous gift for a non-gambling 23
year old to give his newly-21-year-old brother.
Marty budgetted that money and some he already had by the day, however
much to spend on food and rides and to gamble each day. He never
borrowed from his next day's allotment. Not only that, he came back
with his last day's amount. So on one hand, he used up almost all his
money. It wasn't "squandered," though, because it was earmarked for
Las Vegas from the beginning. It was a birthday bash, and as such it
was by all accounts very successful! And he came back, having saved
some of the money.
I can't say that's any intended or direct result of unschooling, and
partly it's a genetic money-obsession of sorts that runs in Keith's
family (and is like a disease with one of his brothers). But in it
all I saw joy and even frugality.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
---Are you saying that a family with chores can't be an unschooling
family Or are you wanting us (what percentage of "us"?) to agree that
the chores note should be removed from the record? Not sure what
you're after with a statement like that.---
I think Pam clarified what I was thinking, or questioning. I'm wasn't
talking about changing the webpage, and I wasn't trying to say that a
family with chores can't be unschooling. I was/am somewhat confused,
still, about unschooling, radical unschooling, and this list. When
parents write in questions about chores, for example, they are
questioned a lot to reflect on whether chores are good or bad for the
relationships in their family, and lots of conversation happens about
why they desire children to do chores and such (talking from general
memory here, not about any specific discussion or even specifically
about chores... this is bedtimes, TV, 'junk' food, etc). There is a
lot of talk of saying yes, living in the moment, creating more
opportunity for choices, finding the joy, cherishing time together, etc
(principles). Also, sometimes when someone refers to "radical
unschooling," or RU, Sandra asks them to just call it unschooling. So,
the responses to those asking about those hot topics sound like radical
unschooling, as Pam described, applying the principles to everything,
not just schooly subjects, and yet Pam wrote that she is very careful,
and cares a lot, that nobody who is unschooling but has
chores/bedtimes/no TV/etc. should be made to feel that they are not
unschoolers (because they are! I agree with that). I understand that
this list doesn't serve the purpose of telling individuals that their
choices in unschooling are right or wrong. I think I understand, but
might be wrong, that the assumption is that if a person is asking about
chores/bedtimes/TV/etc., then they are asking for ways to change,
because if they were ok with those things and those things were working
in their relationships, they wouldn't be asking at all. And it seems to
me that there can't be any particular line between unschoolers and
radical unschoolers, because there are most definitely families at every
point in between. I'm trying to think before I write, and not write in
a stream-of-thought way, so I will stop writing now, because I am not
sure exactly where I am going with this, what my question is in
particular. Hopefully what I wrote will trigger a response that helps
me clarify what I'm trying to get at.
---I think having or not having chores, has little to do with
unschooling, just like there are people who unschool and don't have TV,
there are people who unschool and have chores. The focus is more about
the relationship. If requiring chores isn't negatively impacting the
relationship, then unschooling can still flourish. If it IS negatively
impacting the relationship, then it's definitely something to reconsider
and perhaps eliminate.---
Ok. So here it is again. Some unschool, and don't have TV. Some
unschool, and have chores. But lots of discussion goes on here about
keeping TV away as a big limitation to learning, that it is a great
resource, that children are discerning, that children understand what is
reality and what is not, that we should be there with them watching,
etc. So, are those that don't have a TV not Radical Unschoolers? I'm
not trying to imply an 'in-crowd' as Pam called it, or better or worse,
or higher or lower level, unschooling. Not at all. Can you be a
radical unschooler but have bedtimes, no TV, chores, food limitations?
Are there definitions of these sorts, or is that not useful to
unschooling at all?
In what scenario would requiring chores not impact the relationship
negatively? In my head that would look like a child who just doesn't
mind being responsible for whatever chore and never objects to it...
which would be ok. Do children like that exist? If the parents assign
chores but the children refuse, and the parents don't insist/force, then
that is that really 'requiring chores'? If a family got together and
talked about what each member prefers in terms of cleaning and such and
then talked about who might like to do what and everyone agreed they
wanted to do something and they created a schedule of some sort... that
might be such a scenario, except the parents aren't 'requiring chores',
the family is just deciding what they want their home to look like.
I'm going to end here, as I'm coming around in circles with nothing more
'to the point' to ask to make this clearer.
Shira
family Or are you wanting us (what percentage of "us"?) to agree that
the chores note should be removed from the record? Not sure what
you're after with a statement like that.---
I think Pam clarified what I was thinking, or questioning. I'm wasn't
talking about changing the webpage, and I wasn't trying to say that a
family with chores can't be unschooling. I was/am somewhat confused,
still, about unschooling, radical unschooling, and this list. When
parents write in questions about chores, for example, they are
questioned a lot to reflect on whether chores are good or bad for the
relationships in their family, and lots of conversation happens about
why they desire children to do chores and such (talking from general
memory here, not about any specific discussion or even specifically
about chores... this is bedtimes, TV, 'junk' food, etc). There is a
lot of talk of saying yes, living in the moment, creating more
opportunity for choices, finding the joy, cherishing time together, etc
(principles). Also, sometimes when someone refers to "radical
unschooling," or RU, Sandra asks them to just call it unschooling. So,
the responses to those asking about those hot topics sound like radical
unschooling, as Pam described, applying the principles to everything,
not just schooly subjects, and yet Pam wrote that she is very careful,
and cares a lot, that nobody who is unschooling but has
chores/bedtimes/no TV/etc. should be made to feel that they are not
unschoolers (because they are! I agree with that). I understand that
this list doesn't serve the purpose of telling individuals that their
choices in unschooling are right or wrong. I think I understand, but
might be wrong, that the assumption is that if a person is asking about
chores/bedtimes/TV/etc., then they are asking for ways to change,
because if they were ok with those things and those things were working
in their relationships, they wouldn't be asking at all. And it seems to
me that there can't be any particular line between unschoolers and
radical unschoolers, because there are most definitely families at every
point in between. I'm trying to think before I write, and not write in
a stream-of-thought way, so I will stop writing now, because I am not
sure exactly where I am going with this, what my question is in
particular. Hopefully what I wrote will trigger a response that helps
me clarify what I'm trying to get at.
---I think having or not having chores, has little to do with
unschooling, just like there are people who unschool and don't have TV,
there are people who unschool and have chores. The focus is more about
the relationship. If requiring chores isn't negatively impacting the
relationship, then unschooling can still flourish. If it IS negatively
impacting the relationship, then it's definitely something to reconsider
and perhaps eliminate.---
Ok. So here it is again. Some unschool, and don't have TV. Some
unschool, and have chores. But lots of discussion goes on here about
keeping TV away as a big limitation to learning, that it is a great
resource, that children are discerning, that children understand what is
reality and what is not, that we should be there with them watching,
etc. So, are those that don't have a TV not Radical Unschoolers? I'm
not trying to imply an 'in-crowd' as Pam called it, or better or worse,
or higher or lower level, unschooling. Not at all. Can you be a
radical unschooler but have bedtimes, no TV, chores, food limitations?
Are there definitions of these sorts, or is that not useful to
unschooling at all?
In what scenario would requiring chores not impact the relationship
negatively? In my head that would look like a child who just doesn't
mind being responsible for whatever chore and never objects to it...
which would be ok. Do children like that exist? If the parents assign
chores but the children refuse, and the parents don't insist/force, then
that is that really 'requiring chores'? If a family got together and
talked about what each member prefers in terms of cleaning and such and
then talked about who might like to do what and everyone agreed they
wanted to do something and they created a schedule of some sort... that
might be such a scenario, except the parents aren't 'requiring chores',
the family is just deciding what they want their home to look like.
I'm going to end here, as I'm coming around in circles with nothing more
'to the point' to ask to make this clearer.
Shira
Ana Maria Bruce
***When we got in the car he said he had left his money at home cause he was saving up for a Birthday present for his sister and didnt want to use it. A few minutes later he said, "Do you think we should love God more than our family?" ***
This would be a perfect time to communicate with your son that there are many ways of tithing not just giving at church. His question makes me think he is confused about how to love God in the real world. It is a sincere question he has.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Also, sometimes when someone refers to "radical
unschooling," or RU, Sandra asks them to just call it unschooling-=-
I want people to write words out and not use "RU" or "CIO" or LOA.
English, so that people don't have to ask what it is. I don't like
people saying "R-U" instead of saying unschooling. It's bad enough
when our friends and relatives wonder what we're doing without coming
up with jargon and secret codes.
On this list when we say "unschooling" it's generally radical
unschooling because I started the list and I've always been a radical
unschooler. I had the food and bedtime choices going years before
Kirby was school aged. I wasn't "unschooling," because I figured he
would go to school, but I was attachment parenting in the way it was
understood then, not the anti-TV, no-cartoon-character shirts way it
seems to have evolved in the past 23 years as Kirby was growing up.
-=I understand that
this list doesn't serve the purpose of telling individuals that their
choices in unschooling are right or wrong. I think I understand, but
might be wrong, that the assumption is that if a person is asking about
chores/bedtimes/TV/etc., then they are asking for ways to change,
because if they were ok with those things and those things were working
in their relationships, they wouldn't be asking at all.-=-
They'll get radical unschooling answers on this list, but the list
doesn't exist to talk about all the unschooling and unschoolers in the
whole wide world. There's a larger range of unschooling in the world
than there is on this list.
-=-And it seems to
me that there can't be any particular line between unschoolers and
radical unschoolers, because there are most definitely families at every
point in between. -=-
Just because there isn't a line doesn't mean that this list isn't
going to tend toward the radical end of the range.
-=Ok. So here it is again. Some unschool, and don't have TV. Some
unschool, and have chores. But lots of discussion goes on here about
keeping TV away as a big limitation to learning, that it is a great
resource, that children are discerning, that children understand what is
reality and what is not, that we should be there with them watching,
etc. So, are those that don't have a TV not Radical Unschoolers?-=-
Not by the descriptions and assumptions Joyce, Pam and I (and some
others who've been involved in these discussions for ten years and
more) use as a working definition for the purposes of these
discussions (this list and UnschoolingDiscussion, which has gone kind
of silent as more people posted here and other places).
If someone wants to limit TV, they'll lose that argument on this
list. They might carry the discussion somewhere else, but I'm not
somewhere else to care. What they call themselves somewhere else
doesn't much affect this list, until someone gets unhappy with
whatever other source of information or "support" they're used to, and
come over here and say "But I understood that..." and then we
persuade them that their fears of TV are getting in the way of
learning and being with their kids.
We do a lot of cleanup here, from damage done in other discussions.
We do a lot of explaining here, to help people out of situations
they've gotten themselves into because they just kind of glanced at
the titles of articles and think they heard someone say something, but
didn't really look into it or ask questions. And they make changes in
their families without a foundation of principles, without any
clarity, and then it's a big jumbly mess. And they might be on a
discussion list or forum for months with people saying "Oooh, good
job!" and it's only getting worse.
The specialty of this list is probably clarity. Carefully say what
you mean, and notice if the words are negative or if they're someone
else's voice (grandmothers, grumpy older relatives) in your head.
That helps not only the list itself, but it helps people in their own
homes even if they never post on the list, to be more thoughtful and
clearer in their thinking.
-=-In what scenario would requiring chores not impact the relationship
negatively? In my head that would look like a child who just doesn't
mind being responsible for whatever chore and never objects to it...
which would be ok. -=-
Not every quote on my website is equally sterling. I'm unwilling to
sanitize it to the point that every phrase on it could have been Joyce
writing. Lots of it IS Joyce! And she's always credited. Sometimes
other things are quoted, and other people, and stories are told, and
exchanges are preserved as they first appeared, with names. Don't
get too hung up on one little quote.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling," or RU, Sandra asks them to just call it unschooling-=-
I want people to write words out and not use "RU" or "CIO" or LOA.
English, so that people don't have to ask what it is. I don't like
people saying "R-U" instead of saying unschooling. It's bad enough
when our friends and relatives wonder what we're doing without coming
up with jargon and secret codes.
On this list when we say "unschooling" it's generally radical
unschooling because I started the list and I've always been a radical
unschooler. I had the food and bedtime choices going years before
Kirby was school aged. I wasn't "unschooling," because I figured he
would go to school, but I was attachment parenting in the way it was
understood then, not the anti-TV, no-cartoon-character shirts way it
seems to have evolved in the past 23 years as Kirby was growing up.
-=I understand that
this list doesn't serve the purpose of telling individuals that their
choices in unschooling are right or wrong. I think I understand, but
might be wrong, that the assumption is that if a person is asking about
chores/bedtimes/TV/etc., then they are asking for ways to change,
because if they were ok with those things and those things were working
in their relationships, they wouldn't be asking at all.-=-
They'll get radical unschooling answers on this list, but the list
doesn't exist to talk about all the unschooling and unschoolers in the
whole wide world. There's a larger range of unschooling in the world
than there is on this list.
-=-And it seems to
me that there can't be any particular line between unschoolers and
radical unschoolers, because there are most definitely families at every
point in between. -=-
Just because there isn't a line doesn't mean that this list isn't
going to tend toward the radical end of the range.
-=Ok. So here it is again. Some unschool, and don't have TV. Some
unschool, and have chores. But lots of discussion goes on here about
keeping TV away as a big limitation to learning, that it is a great
resource, that children are discerning, that children understand what is
reality and what is not, that we should be there with them watching,
etc. So, are those that don't have a TV not Radical Unschoolers?-=-
Not by the descriptions and assumptions Joyce, Pam and I (and some
others who've been involved in these discussions for ten years and
more) use as a working definition for the purposes of these
discussions (this list and UnschoolingDiscussion, which has gone kind
of silent as more people posted here and other places).
If someone wants to limit TV, they'll lose that argument on this
list. They might carry the discussion somewhere else, but I'm not
somewhere else to care. What they call themselves somewhere else
doesn't much affect this list, until someone gets unhappy with
whatever other source of information or "support" they're used to, and
come over here and say "But I understood that..." and then we
persuade them that their fears of TV are getting in the way of
learning and being with their kids.
We do a lot of cleanup here, from damage done in other discussions.
We do a lot of explaining here, to help people out of situations
they've gotten themselves into because they just kind of glanced at
the titles of articles and think they heard someone say something, but
didn't really look into it or ask questions. And they make changes in
their families without a foundation of principles, without any
clarity, and then it's a big jumbly mess. And they might be on a
discussion list or forum for months with people saying "Oooh, good
job!" and it's only getting worse.
The specialty of this list is probably clarity. Carefully say what
you mean, and notice if the words are negative or if they're someone
else's voice (grandmothers, grumpy older relatives) in your head.
That helps not only the list itself, but it helps people in their own
homes even if they never post on the list, to be more thoughtful and
clearer in their thinking.
-=-In what scenario would requiring chores not impact the relationship
negatively? In my head that would look like a child who just doesn't
mind being responsible for whatever chore and never objects to it...
which would be ok. -=-
Not every quote on my website is equally sterling. I'm unwilling to
sanitize it to the point that every phrase on it could have been Joyce
writing. Lots of it IS Joyce! And she's always credited. Sometimes
other things are quoted, and other people, and stories are told, and
exchanges are preserved as they first appeared, with names. Don't
get too hung up on one little quote.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Ok. So here it is again. Some unschool, and don't have TV. Some
unschool, and have chores. But lots of discussion goes on here about
keeping TV away as a big limitation to learning, that it is a great
resource, that children are discerning, that children understand what is
reality and what is not, that we should be there with them watching,
etc. So, are those that don't have a TV not Radical Unschoolers?***
We've met several unschooling families locally that unschool without TV. Chamille didn't have much in common with their kids because of it. The kids were nice enough and the parents were nice enough too. They didn't see any harm in disallowing TV. The parents seemed to have decent relationships with their kids. To me, it seemed snobbish and unnecessary. I totally get the arguments against TV, I grew up without one, I chose not to do that. My sister is more an anti-TV person. They have one, but watch very limited things on it and their kids have to ask permission to use it.
A family can live a full life without a TV and have decent relationships with their children. I don't see any benefit in keeping TV out of our lives, so why would I do that, especially since I see the opposite to be true. Limiting the world creates limitations. Most unschooling families "get" that. Some people have a hard time with their own hang-ups and want their lives based on their own comforts, and still unschool. It just doesn't look or feel the same.
***In what scenario would requiring chores not impact the relationship
negatively? In my head that would look like a child who just doesn't
mind being responsible for whatever chore and never objects to it...
which would be ok. Do children like that exist? ***
My parents were pretty nice parents. I was a kid who did the chores without complaint, mostly. Doing chores wasn't a punishment, it was generally done together. Sometimes, the expectation was that if I didn't do the chores, then I couldn't go out and play, and I was okay with that. Sometimes I chose not to do chores and not go out and play. It didn't "feel" like a punishment. When we set out with the list of chores, we'd each pick the things we prefered to do off the list, or if it was outdoor work, we'd all just grab tools and work together. I was a more compliant sort of kid, my sister fought it sometimes, she was way more intense in personality. Ironically, she forces her kids to do chores, they don't complain either. They don't have an option not to do them, so they don't fight it.
When Chamille was little, we cleaned up every night before bedtime. She never complained about it, she just did it, it was something that we did together, before brushing our teeth and reading stories and snuggling into bed. There came a time when she didn't want to do that any more, so we stopped. It happened to coincide with discovering unschooling. My younger daughter has never been compliant in that way, never took to a routine like that. If I hadn't discovered unschooling, there would've been struggles. I'm not inclined to force her to my will either. I saw my parents try to do that with my sister and I see her doing that to her own kids.
The difference is that I see myself as my children's partner. My sister doesn't view her kids that way. She is very clear that the parents are the authority figures and the children must be treated kindly, but they must comply. She's happy with the relationships she has with her children. I want something better. I enjoy the open honesty that happens because I don't put myself in a position of "authority figure" that must be answered to.
The families that I know of that were unschooling and requiring chores, ended up with kids in school, but I really think it had more to do with the fact that the relationships weren't front and center and unschooling wasn't all that important to begin with. The parents' own comforts were more important.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschool, and have chores. But lots of discussion goes on here about
keeping TV away as a big limitation to learning, that it is a great
resource, that children are discerning, that children understand what is
reality and what is not, that we should be there with them watching,
etc. So, are those that don't have a TV not Radical Unschoolers?***
We've met several unschooling families locally that unschool without TV. Chamille didn't have much in common with their kids because of it. The kids were nice enough and the parents were nice enough too. They didn't see any harm in disallowing TV. The parents seemed to have decent relationships with their kids. To me, it seemed snobbish and unnecessary. I totally get the arguments against TV, I grew up without one, I chose not to do that. My sister is more an anti-TV person. They have one, but watch very limited things on it and their kids have to ask permission to use it.
A family can live a full life without a TV and have decent relationships with their children. I don't see any benefit in keeping TV out of our lives, so why would I do that, especially since I see the opposite to be true. Limiting the world creates limitations. Most unschooling families "get" that. Some people have a hard time with their own hang-ups and want their lives based on their own comforts, and still unschool. It just doesn't look or feel the same.
***In what scenario would requiring chores not impact the relationship
negatively? In my head that would look like a child who just doesn't
mind being responsible for whatever chore and never objects to it...
which would be ok. Do children like that exist? ***
My parents were pretty nice parents. I was a kid who did the chores without complaint, mostly. Doing chores wasn't a punishment, it was generally done together. Sometimes, the expectation was that if I didn't do the chores, then I couldn't go out and play, and I was okay with that. Sometimes I chose not to do chores and not go out and play. It didn't "feel" like a punishment. When we set out with the list of chores, we'd each pick the things we prefered to do off the list, or if it was outdoor work, we'd all just grab tools and work together. I was a more compliant sort of kid, my sister fought it sometimes, she was way more intense in personality. Ironically, she forces her kids to do chores, they don't complain either. They don't have an option not to do them, so they don't fight it.
When Chamille was little, we cleaned up every night before bedtime. She never complained about it, she just did it, it was something that we did together, before brushing our teeth and reading stories and snuggling into bed. There came a time when she didn't want to do that any more, so we stopped. It happened to coincide with discovering unschooling. My younger daughter has never been compliant in that way, never took to a routine like that. If I hadn't discovered unschooling, there would've been struggles. I'm not inclined to force her to my will either. I saw my parents try to do that with my sister and I see her doing that to her own kids.
The difference is that I see myself as my children's partner. My sister doesn't view her kids that way. She is very clear that the parents are the authority figures and the children must be treated kindly, but they must comply. She's happy with the relationships she has with her children. I want something better. I enjoy the open honesty that happens because I don't put myself in a position of "authority figure" that must be answered to.
The families that I know of that were unschooling and requiring chores, ended up with kids in school, but I really think it had more to do with the fact that the relationships weren't front and center and unschooling wasn't all that important to begin with. The parents' own comforts were more important.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lalow66
we give each of our kids a dollar per age per month. so my 8 year old gets 8 dollars per month and we tack onto that any extra money he earns...like for a while I was giving him an extra dollar a month for helping his little brother get into his carseat and buckle up. Now he gets an extra 2 dollars for helping me with the puppy each morning (taking it out and feeding it) and taking the trash out. he seems to like the responsibility and he gets a little extra money for it... but if he forgets or is busy doing something else, i just do it... i dont make a big deal about it or take money back or pay another child for it etc..
this month he descided he would like to start playing WOW (15 a month). money is fairly tight around and he expressed that he didnt want all his allowance to go to the game. his Dad and brother would likely play too some so we worked out a deal that he will pay 5 dollars of it and still get 5 a month allowance. He is saving up for a DS and still wants to be able to work toward that.
this all being said we realize what he gets isnt enough for him to buy alot of thing and takes a while to save up, so when we can afford to we help out. if i have extra at the end of the month I make an attempt to buy the kids things they have been expressing an interest in...like we got lego rock band the other week.
i dont make the kids save any or give to charity etc.. although they do save for bigger purchases (both my 7 and 8 year old have over 60 dollars they are saving to buy DS's with)and i have known them both to buy presents for siblings on birthdays and to donate money too.
this month he descided he would like to start playing WOW (15 a month). money is fairly tight around and he expressed that he didnt want all his allowance to go to the game. his Dad and brother would likely play too some so we worked out a deal that he will pay 5 dollars of it and still get 5 a month allowance. He is saving up for a DS and still wants to be able to work toward that.
this all being said we realize what he gets isnt enough for him to buy alot of thing and takes a while to save up, so when we can afford to we help out. if i have extra at the end of the month I make an attempt to buy the kids things they have been expressing an interest in...like we got lego rock band the other week.
i dont make the kids save any or give to charity etc.. although they do save for bigger purchases (both my 7 and 8 year old have over 60 dollars they are saving to buy DS's with)and i have known them both to buy presents for siblings on birthdays and to donate money too.
Shira Rocklin
--- but I was attachment parenting in the way it was understood then,
not the anti-TV, no-cartoon-character shirts way it seems to have
evolved in the past 23 years as Kirby was growing up.---
How was it understood back then? I only know it as it is now.
--- Just because there isn't a line doesn't mean that this list isn't
going to tend toward the radical end of the range.---
I think the confusion for me lies in the difference between discussion
here, and what I should do in reality at home. Just because I think I
agree with whatever is being said on an issue, doesn't mean I'm ready to
let go of that at home, right then. But there is that urge in me, that
I feel like I agree with something and therefor I should go and do it.
And then I want to go somewhere and be told that its ok not to change
right away, all at once (I could just go read Sandra's page on taking it
slow each time I feel that way :)
---The specialty of this list is probably clarity.---
That is why I like this list best so far. But sometimes, the clarity is
tiring, because the more I think through ideas, the more I feel negative
about not being ready to follow through on them. I know - Don't try to
do it ALL at once. But still... everything I understand makes me want
to do more, let go of more fears, trust more, enjoy more... but as I
have been doing that, the past several months, I encounter situations
where I don't know what to do. Often the advice here, when it comes to
difficulties, is to anticipate needs before they become overwhelming -
avoiding conflict before it occurs. But I am encountering times where
it just seems impossible to anticipate conflict - when something a 3.5
yo likes one day, they hate the next. Its just not possible to
anticipate every need, or intervene before every conflict. There are so
many little incidents that end up in big tantrums or crying, and I just
don't know what to do in the moment, while striving to better anticipate
needs ahead of time in general. In general I slow things down, wait for
her to be ready to leave, give lots of reminders about where we are
going next, what is happening that day... I do those things because they
seem to work well for her, and yet sometimes they just don't. Is this
just a reality of the ages I'm living with? Tantrums when wants can't
be fulfilled at the exact moment? There are some situations where I
think maybe I should just be firm and have firm barriers, such as it
hurts me to have Temima climb over me in certain ways. In most weather,
Temima can choose how to dress, but in frostbite weather, I insist on
the right layers, or we don't go out.
---We've met several unschooling families locally that unschool without
TV. Chamille didn't have much in common with their kids because of it.
The kids were nice enough and the parents were nice enough too. They
didn't see any harm in disallowing TV. The parents seemed to have
decent relationships with their kids. To me, it seemed snobbish and
unnecessary. I totally get the arguments against TV, I grew up without
one, I chose not to do that. My sister is more an anti-TV person. They
have one, but watch very limited things on it and their kids have to ask
permission to use it.
A family can live a full life without a TV and have decent relationships
with their children. I don't see any benefit in keeping TV out of our
lives, so why would I do that, especially since I see the opposite to be
true. Limiting the world creates limitations. Most unschooling
families "get" that. Some people have a hard time with their own
hang-ups and want their lives based on their own comforts, and still
unschool. It just doesn't look or feel the same.---
Your language leads me to think that when you meet unschooling kids who
do have TV, they are much nicer than these 'nice enough' kids, and that
they have a phenomenal relationship with their parents, rather than a
decent one. Are there different levels of 'full' lives? Do you mean
that their lives are full, but not as full as yours? What if they have
tons of something else that your family doesn't get? Bible, for
instance (as the only other example of something that some see value and
some don't that I can think of tonight). People see value, and have it
around, or don't see value and don't have it around. Is one family more
'full' than the other, for having it (or not) around? If you see
benefit to having TV and detriment to avoiding it, then for sure it
makes sense for you to have one. But by that logic, and if you get the
arguments against TV, and those parents see having it as detrimental,
and not having it as having many benefits, are they making a less worthy
decision? Because by saying that it seems snobbish and unnecessary, it
sounds like its less worthy of a choice. I don't really agree with
them, but I'm missing something in your statements, I think. If you are
allowing TV because of the benefits of it, but also because it wasn't
allowed when you were growing up and you didn't like that, aren't you
also allowing your hang-ups affect you? If they are disallowing TV
because of the benefits of that, and it was allowed when they were
growing up and they came to see it had negative impacts on them, isn't
that the same choice you made, but in reverse?
Couldn't the arguments against avoiding TV be applied to so many other
things, like religious texts? Someone could say they aren't avoiding,
but just don't have an interest and don't have it around, about either
of those. But TV is a great resource for exploring the world, and some
would argue that religious texts, or maybe Shakespeare, or something,
are also great resources for exploring the world.
--- The difference is that I see myself as my children's partner. My
sister doesn't view her kids that way. She is very clear that the
parents are the authority figures and the children must be treated
kindly, but they must comply. ---
This idea of being our children's partner, I'd like to discuss it. I've
encountered parents who describe two ways of parenting, authoritative or
being their children's friend. Neither seem very healthy to me. I
don't want to be the 'boss'. But I also see what I do, and even how
unschooling is, as so different from being a 'friend'. Is 'partner'
different than friend?
--- The parents' own comforts were more important. ---
I'm having some problems balancing when it comes to this idea. I don't
think my own comforts or needs are more important than my children's...
but I do think they ARE important. For example, when Temima, 3.5yo, is
trying to climb all over me, and sometimes it hurts and I ask her to
stop, and have to physically move her off of me. I would rather say to
her that she can't climb on me anymore, since it most often hurts me.
That would result in her getting very upset. Where is the balance? In
my striving to understand saying 'yes' and giving more choice and
enjoying together, I've gotten lost. Now that I've started opening more
opportunities for play and life together, there are some areas where
there seems to be less peace, not more.
not the anti-TV, no-cartoon-character shirts way it seems to have
evolved in the past 23 years as Kirby was growing up.---
How was it understood back then? I only know it as it is now.
--- Just because there isn't a line doesn't mean that this list isn't
going to tend toward the radical end of the range.---
I think the confusion for me lies in the difference between discussion
here, and what I should do in reality at home. Just because I think I
agree with whatever is being said on an issue, doesn't mean I'm ready to
let go of that at home, right then. But there is that urge in me, that
I feel like I agree with something and therefor I should go and do it.
And then I want to go somewhere and be told that its ok not to change
right away, all at once (I could just go read Sandra's page on taking it
slow each time I feel that way :)
---The specialty of this list is probably clarity.---
That is why I like this list best so far. But sometimes, the clarity is
tiring, because the more I think through ideas, the more I feel negative
about not being ready to follow through on them. I know - Don't try to
do it ALL at once. But still... everything I understand makes me want
to do more, let go of more fears, trust more, enjoy more... but as I
have been doing that, the past several months, I encounter situations
where I don't know what to do. Often the advice here, when it comes to
difficulties, is to anticipate needs before they become overwhelming -
avoiding conflict before it occurs. But I am encountering times where
it just seems impossible to anticipate conflict - when something a 3.5
yo likes one day, they hate the next. Its just not possible to
anticipate every need, or intervene before every conflict. There are so
many little incidents that end up in big tantrums or crying, and I just
don't know what to do in the moment, while striving to better anticipate
needs ahead of time in general. In general I slow things down, wait for
her to be ready to leave, give lots of reminders about where we are
going next, what is happening that day... I do those things because they
seem to work well for her, and yet sometimes they just don't. Is this
just a reality of the ages I'm living with? Tantrums when wants can't
be fulfilled at the exact moment? There are some situations where I
think maybe I should just be firm and have firm barriers, such as it
hurts me to have Temima climb over me in certain ways. In most weather,
Temima can choose how to dress, but in frostbite weather, I insist on
the right layers, or we don't go out.
---We've met several unschooling families locally that unschool without
TV. Chamille didn't have much in common with their kids because of it.
The kids were nice enough and the parents were nice enough too. They
didn't see any harm in disallowing TV. The parents seemed to have
decent relationships with their kids. To me, it seemed snobbish and
unnecessary. I totally get the arguments against TV, I grew up without
one, I chose not to do that. My sister is more an anti-TV person. They
have one, but watch very limited things on it and their kids have to ask
permission to use it.
A family can live a full life without a TV and have decent relationships
with their children. I don't see any benefit in keeping TV out of our
lives, so why would I do that, especially since I see the opposite to be
true. Limiting the world creates limitations. Most unschooling
families "get" that. Some people have a hard time with their own
hang-ups and want their lives based on their own comforts, and still
unschool. It just doesn't look or feel the same.---
Your language leads me to think that when you meet unschooling kids who
do have TV, they are much nicer than these 'nice enough' kids, and that
they have a phenomenal relationship with their parents, rather than a
decent one. Are there different levels of 'full' lives? Do you mean
that their lives are full, but not as full as yours? What if they have
tons of something else that your family doesn't get? Bible, for
instance (as the only other example of something that some see value and
some don't that I can think of tonight). People see value, and have it
around, or don't see value and don't have it around. Is one family more
'full' than the other, for having it (or not) around? If you see
benefit to having TV and detriment to avoiding it, then for sure it
makes sense for you to have one. But by that logic, and if you get the
arguments against TV, and those parents see having it as detrimental,
and not having it as having many benefits, are they making a less worthy
decision? Because by saying that it seems snobbish and unnecessary, it
sounds like its less worthy of a choice. I don't really agree with
them, but I'm missing something in your statements, I think. If you are
allowing TV because of the benefits of it, but also because it wasn't
allowed when you were growing up and you didn't like that, aren't you
also allowing your hang-ups affect you? If they are disallowing TV
because of the benefits of that, and it was allowed when they were
growing up and they came to see it had negative impacts on them, isn't
that the same choice you made, but in reverse?
Couldn't the arguments against avoiding TV be applied to so many other
things, like religious texts? Someone could say they aren't avoiding,
but just don't have an interest and don't have it around, about either
of those. But TV is a great resource for exploring the world, and some
would argue that religious texts, or maybe Shakespeare, or something,
are also great resources for exploring the world.
--- The difference is that I see myself as my children's partner. My
sister doesn't view her kids that way. She is very clear that the
parents are the authority figures and the children must be treated
kindly, but they must comply. ---
This idea of being our children's partner, I'd like to discuss it. I've
encountered parents who describe two ways of parenting, authoritative or
being their children's friend. Neither seem very healthy to me. I
don't want to be the 'boss'. But I also see what I do, and even how
unschooling is, as so different from being a 'friend'. Is 'partner'
different than friend?
--- The parents' own comforts were more important. ---
I'm having some problems balancing when it comes to this idea. I don't
think my own comforts or needs are more important than my children's...
but I do think they ARE important. For example, when Temima, 3.5yo, is
trying to climb all over me, and sometimes it hurts and I ask her to
stop, and have to physically move her off of me. I would rather say to
her that she can't climb on me anymore, since it most often hurts me.
That would result in her getting very upset. Where is the balance? In
my striving to understand saying 'yes' and giving more choice and
enjoying together, I've gotten lost. Now that I've started opening more
opportunities for play and life together, there are some areas where
there seems to be less peace, not more.