Cleaning Evolution...part 1 of ?
Shannon D. Burton
This is the first in a series of bits I've written over the last months, from the very earliest stirrings of our awakening into unschooling. I'm hoping they'll together chart our growth, and maybe show how it all unfolds for those who feel overwhelmed by what their heart needs.
Some of what's here is embarrassing, some makes me ashamed. But it's who I was, on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 at 8:43pm (according to the Facebook note tag). There will be accounts from a bit further in our evolution, hopefully sooner than later. =)
If anyone is interested, I have my comments which were included in the ensuing discussion. And feel free to comment on any of it - aybe it'll help someone else out there pass this place with more joy....
Shan
My Parenting Challenge....
My biggest parenting challenge during the last several months has been cleaning. Or, rather, getting the little tornadoes that share my living space (and sometimes the big spousal tornado, too, but that's another issue) to simply clean up and put away what they've used.
I am lucky. My children are bright, happy, and healthy. Giggles and squeals of laughter are commonly bounding about in our little home. They get along well with each other, invent wonderful games of fantasy....and leave stuff EVERYWHERE. Both love every artistic medium they've encountered, books, music, building toys and puzzles. Both love to role play. My daughter will spend an entire afternoon hosting tea parties and birthdays for an eclectic collection of invisible, baby doll, and stuffed primate friends (two of these, a red monkey and a three foot gorilla, are nearly bigger than she is!). And, of course, she must do this dressed up (in whatever required the most pulling-and-tossing to get to!).
My son is a self-professed artist/sculptor/scientist/inventor. Lately, he's gotten into spying, and often eavesdrops on adult conversations (Again, that's another issue). And he reads. Constantly. And I, the bibliophile mother who swore the only thing she'd ever disown her children for was NOT loving books, grit my teeth as I try to avoid the current pile he's devouring.
My greatest triumph? That I realized after seven years, that this is not their problem, but mine.
We are raising our children in a manner often called unschooling. Rather than make demands, to insist that they obey because we the parents say they must, we've decided to treat them as equals...not equal in experience, knowledge, or decision-making to be sure, but equal as unique beings in this world, with the same need for respect, love, and dignity as any adult.
So now I try to find ways to help them see that actions beget consequences. Every choice will have a result. My job as a parent is to make choosing to act wisely much more pleasant than choosing another path.
This isn't easy. I often have to adjust my expectations - I tend to expect them to know what I need, to be thinking on the same level as I am. And that they not mess up MY house.
Which is of course the only home they've ever known. It is their sanctuary, their playground, their workplace, their schoolroom, their studio, their stage, their laboratory. It is the axis upon which their world spins. Given that...
Well, that's the part I'm still working on.
Some of what's here is embarrassing, some makes me ashamed. But it's who I was, on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 at 8:43pm (according to the Facebook note tag). There will be accounts from a bit further in our evolution, hopefully sooner than later. =)
If anyone is interested, I have my comments which were included in the ensuing discussion. And feel free to comment on any of it - aybe it'll help someone else out there pass this place with more joy....
Shan
My Parenting Challenge....
My biggest parenting challenge during the last several months has been cleaning. Or, rather, getting the little tornadoes that share my living space (and sometimes the big spousal tornado, too, but that's another issue) to simply clean up and put away what they've used.
I am lucky. My children are bright, happy, and healthy. Giggles and squeals of laughter are commonly bounding about in our little home. They get along well with each other, invent wonderful games of fantasy....and leave stuff EVERYWHERE. Both love every artistic medium they've encountered, books, music, building toys and puzzles. Both love to role play. My daughter will spend an entire afternoon hosting tea parties and birthdays for an eclectic collection of invisible, baby doll, and stuffed primate friends (two of these, a red monkey and a three foot gorilla, are nearly bigger than she is!). And, of course, she must do this dressed up (in whatever required the most pulling-and-tossing to get to!).
My son is a self-professed artist/sculptor/scientist/inventor. Lately, he's gotten into spying, and often eavesdrops on adult conversations (Again, that's another issue). And he reads. Constantly. And I, the bibliophile mother who swore the only thing she'd ever disown her children for was NOT loving books, grit my teeth as I try to avoid the current pile he's devouring.
My greatest triumph? That I realized after seven years, that this is not their problem, but mine.
We are raising our children in a manner often called unschooling. Rather than make demands, to insist that they obey because we the parents say they must, we've decided to treat them as equals...not equal in experience, knowledge, or decision-making to be sure, but equal as unique beings in this world, with the same need for respect, love, and dignity as any adult.
So now I try to find ways to help them see that actions beget consequences. Every choice will have a result. My job as a parent is to make choosing to act wisely much more pleasant than choosing another path.
This isn't easy. I often have to adjust my expectations - I tend to expect them to know what I need, to be thinking on the same level as I am. And that they not mess up MY house.
Which is of course the only home they've ever known. It is their sanctuary, their playground, their workplace, their schoolroom, their studio, their stage, their laboratory. It is the axis upon which their world spins. Given that...
Well, that's the part I'm still working on.
carenkh
=-=So now I try to find ways to help them see that actions beget consequences. Every choice will have a result. My job as a parent is to make choosing to act wisely much more pleasant than choosing another path.=-=
I know that you are not the mother who locked her child in his room at night, but this is *exactly* the same language she was using, the same justification for her actions: "He is making this choice. These are consequences."
"Choosing to act wisely" meaning doing what YOU want?
I need to start work, and may write more later, but those words made me cringe!
Caren
I know that you are not the mother who locked her child in his room at night, but this is *exactly* the same language she was using, the same justification for her actions: "He is making this choice. These are consequences."
"Choosing to act wisely" meaning doing what YOU want?
I need to start work, and may write more later, but those words made me cringe!
Caren
Sandra Dodd
Shannon Burton wrote: -=So now I try to find ways to help them see
that actions beget consequences. Every choice will have a result. My
job as a parent is to make choosing to act wisely much more pleasant
than choosing another path.-=-
------------------------
Someone commented:
-=-I know that you are not the mother who locked her child in his room
at night, but this is *exactly* the same language she was using, the
same justification for her actions: "He is making this choice. These
are consequences."
-=-"Choosing to act wisely" meaning doing what YOU want? -=-
-------------------------
Shannon's already said she herself was cringing about what she had
written months ago, but still...
The word "consequences" has been bent and contorted by some families
and "belief systems" (fundamentalist Christians who have crazily
blamed Jesus for greater and lesser child abuse), but the fact of
consequences can't be denied. What should be avoided is parentally-
imposed consequences, or arbitrary consequences. And those word-
benders have even taken and (mis)used "natural consequences."
They don't get to own English just because they've abused it too.
When one writes "actions beget consequences," I'm sure some readers
shudder at the archaic verb and think "Bible weirdo!" But if they
read the same ideas expressed in other terms, they think they're
hearing something revolutionarily new! Ah, 'the Secret!' Ah,
visualization, self-empowerment, out of the box, blah-de-blah-blah.
For unschooling, let's don't think of it as "a job" (looking back up
at the antiquated Shannon quote), but as relationships and
assistance. I see part of what I'm doing on this list as helping
other parents see that actions beget consequences. Every choice will
have a result.
I don't have to help make choosing to act wisely more pleasant than
choosing another path. The world will do that. People's own
children will do that. If I behave badly with or to one of my
children, their disappointment or frustration will be a natural
consequence of my failure to behave better.
Pam Sorooshian wrote this:
As we get older and our kids grow up, we eventually come to realize
that all the big things in our lives are really the direct result of
how we've handled all the little things. —Pam Sorooshian, June 4, 2007
Choosing to act wisely, in English, means making a choice, first. And
making a choice means having options. But more than the existence of
options, it involves the ability to consider more than one path, and
more than the ability, the actual act of considering and choosing.
People say "I chose" or "I decided" lots more than the actually do
carefully choose and decide.
Sandra
that actions beget consequences. Every choice will have a result. My
job as a parent is to make choosing to act wisely much more pleasant
than choosing another path.-=-
------------------------
Someone commented:
-=-I know that you are not the mother who locked her child in his room
at night, but this is *exactly* the same language she was using, the
same justification for her actions: "He is making this choice. These
are consequences."
-=-"Choosing to act wisely" meaning doing what YOU want? -=-
-------------------------
Shannon's already said she herself was cringing about what she had
written months ago, but still...
The word "consequences" has been bent and contorted by some families
and "belief systems" (fundamentalist Christians who have crazily
blamed Jesus for greater and lesser child abuse), but the fact of
consequences can't be denied. What should be avoided is parentally-
imposed consequences, or arbitrary consequences. And those word-
benders have even taken and (mis)used "natural consequences."
They don't get to own English just because they've abused it too.
When one writes "actions beget consequences," I'm sure some readers
shudder at the archaic verb and think "Bible weirdo!" But if they
read the same ideas expressed in other terms, they think they're
hearing something revolutionarily new! Ah, 'the Secret!' Ah,
visualization, self-empowerment, out of the box, blah-de-blah-blah.
For unschooling, let's don't think of it as "a job" (looking back up
at the antiquated Shannon quote), but as relationships and
assistance. I see part of what I'm doing on this list as helping
other parents see that actions beget consequences. Every choice will
have a result.
I don't have to help make choosing to act wisely more pleasant than
choosing another path. The world will do that. People's own
children will do that. If I behave badly with or to one of my
children, their disappointment or frustration will be a natural
consequence of my failure to behave better.
Pam Sorooshian wrote this:
As we get older and our kids grow up, we eventually come to realize
that all the big things in our lives are really the direct result of
how we've handled all the little things. —Pam Sorooshian, June 4, 2007
Choosing to act wisely, in English, means making a choice, first. And
making a choice means having options. But more than the existence of
options, it involves the ability to consider more than one path, and
more than the ability, the actual act of considering and choosing.
People say "I chose" or "I decided" lots more than the actually do
carefully choose and decide.
Sandra
Marina DeLuca-Howard
I am realizing that "stuff" is what people have when they are not relating,
going out, being together! This has been a revelation to me. For instance
my children don't have a special toy. TOYs are things. When they want a
hug they get one from a parent or sibling. Apart from computers, wii and
television my kids can play with rags, sticks, sand and have such a good
time. Toys seem to be parent substitutes, but require a lot of management,
money and storage. They also separate you from you kids as you constantly
clean, and juggle such things.
Our house is the messiest place, but when the kids and I are spending our
time together rather than me cleaning it suddenly become neater and
inexpicably cleaner.
I have realized that there were two radically opposed ideas at play here.
One, I needed to clean the house to be a good mother. Thus I needed to be
alone, and then enforce this clean policy on the family that the house being
clean was sacrosanct. I would then be too tired to be any fun or too
invested in the clean house to risk all that work.
Idea number two is that I need to spend time with the kids that is
fun/compassionate. While I was cleaning the kids were using "mother
substitutes": toys, tv, junk food...They were patiently waiting for me to
finish and be engaged with them. Duh! They were leaving wrappers on the
couch while I tackled the other room, then leaving mess in the kitchen while
I organized the toys.
Just something to think about...declutter, decompress, and play in the dirt,
watch a film together or just play hide n sick.'
Marina
2009/5/26 carenkh <dharmamama1@...>
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
going out, being together! This has been a revelation to me. For instance
my children don't have a special toy. TOYs are things. When they want a
hug they get one from a parent or sibling. Apart from computers, wii and
television my kids can play with rags, sticks, sand and have such a good
time. Toys seem to be parent substitutes, but require a lot of management,
money and storage. They also separate you from you kids as you constantly
clean, and juggle such things.
Our house is the messiest place, but when the kids and I are spending our
time together rather than me cleaning it suddenly become neater and
inexpicably cleaner.
I have realized that there were two radically opposed ideas at play here.
One, I needed to clean the house to be a good mother. Thus I needed to be
alone, and then enforce this clean policy on the family that the house being
clean was sacrosanct. I would then be too tired to be any fun or too
invested in the clean house to risk all that work.
Idea number two is that I need to spend time with the kids that is
fun/compassionate. While I was cleaning the kids were using "mother
substitutes": toys, tv, junk food...They were patiently waiting for me to
finish and be engaged with them. Duh! They were leaving wrappers on the
couch while I tackled the other room, then leaving mess in the kitchen while
I organized the toys.
Just something to think about...declutter, decompress, and play in the dirt,
watch a film together or just play hide n sick.'
Marina
2009/5/26 carenkh <dharmamama1@...>
>--
>
> =-=So now I try to find ways to help them see that actions beget
> consequences. Every choice will have a result. My job as a parent is to make
> choosing to act wisely much more pleasant than choosing another path.=-=
>
> I know that you are not the mother who locked her child in his room at
> night, but this is *exactly* the same language she was using, the same
> justification for her actions: "He is making this choice. These are
> consequences."
>
> "Choosing to act wisely" meaning doing what YOU want?
>
> I need to start work, and may write more later, but those words made me
> cringe!
>
> Caren
>
>
>
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>>> This isn't easy. I often have to adjust my expectations - I tend toexpect them to know what I need, to be thinking on the same level as I
am. And that they not mess up MY house.>>>
>A few years ago, I had a toothpaste epiphany. In our main bathroom, the
girls and I had been keeping our toothbrushes and toothpaste. At the
time I rarely used the master bath off the master bedroom because that
room was the office at the time.
So, me and my compulsion to tidy things, I'd go to brush my teeth, and
the darn toothpaste was always in the wrong location. So, I'd put it
back where it belonged, to find that, the next time I went to use it, it
was in the wrong location again. Who is doing this? That's what I was
thinking, I mean, how dare someone go and put the toothpaste in the
wrong location and for what reason would someone do this? Gosh, it was
totally bugging me.
So, one day, Chamille comes to me and says something like, "mom, why do
you keep putting the toothpaste in the wrong location?" and I'm
thinking to myself, ah ha, the toothpaste moving culprit, but it made me
suddenly realize that, Chamille lives here too, not that I didn't know
this already, but the awareness suddenly hit me, that she will have a
very different idea of how the house should be than I do, and she, being
an equal member in our shared living space really does have an idea of
how things should be in our shared living space!
That's when a lot of things changed in regards to how I chose to keep
our living spaces. I use the master bathroom now, since I am using that
as my bedroom too, but that bathroom is now the main bathroom, the ones
that guests use. The main bathroom, the one that traditionally would be
used for guests, is Chamille's. I call it Chamille's office, since
that's where she does her business of make-up and hair. It's very very
messy, and I will put a picture of it on my blog today if I have time,
because I told someone that I would do so soon anyway. She spreads her
stuff out on the counters and the floor. There is hair dye on the
ceiling. About once a week, I'll go in and tidy up a little and wipe
down counters and clean the toilet and shower for her, which she
appreciates enormously because she really can't be bothered with that
tedium in her creative space. It stays all clean for about half a day
tops, then it goes back to looking like it did before, except for the
clean toilet and shower, that stays clean for a while.
A lot of kids that come over to our house comment on her bathroom and
how messy it is, or how their parents would kill them if they did that
to any of the bathrooms in their house. The way I see it, it is
Chamille's bathroom, in her house, and she has it set up the way she
wants it to be! Since it is that way, she has creatively expanded her
make-up and experience, which, I think, is a GOOD thing.
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 26, 2009, at 10:43 AM, Marina DeLuca-Howard wrote:
relationship gaps with things -- toys, books, video games, TV, other
kids -- it would be less illuminating to make a blanket statement
that those are all parent substitutes.
All those are ways for children to explore their interests. A child
playing WoW 6 hours a day isn't necessarily saying "Mom, you're not
paying enough attention to me!" If the mom is engaged, very likely
he's saying, "This game is incredibly involving and fun!"
If a parent remains connected to the kids, checks in periodically,
brings them food, plays with them, engages in conversation, runs
interesting alternatives through their lives, takes them places, then
the actions are likely to be exactly what they seem: engagement.
Two kids watching TV for 6 hours a day could be doing it for joyful
or withdrawing reasons. The actions aren't nearly as revealing as the
reasons beneath them.
Joyce
> hile I was cleaning the kids were using "motherWhile it's definitely a good insight that kids can fill in
> substitutes": toys, tv, junk food...They were patiently waiting for
> me to
> finish and be engaged with them.
relationship gaps with things -- toys, books, video games, TV, other
kids -- it would be less illuminating to make a blanket statement
that those are all parent substitutes.
All those are ways for children to explore their interests. A child
playing WoW 6 hours a day isn't necessarily saying "Mom, you're not
paying enough attention to me!" If the mom is engaged, very likely
he's saying, "This game is incredibly involving and fun!"
If a parent remains connected to the kids, checks in periodically,
brings them food, plays with them, engages in conversation, runs
interesting alternatives through their lives, takes them places, then
the actions are likely to be exactly what they seem: engagement.
Two kids watching TV for 6 hours a day could be doing it for joyful
or withdrawing reasons. The actions aren't nearly as revealing as the
reasons beneath them.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am realizing that "stuff" is what people have when they are not
relating,
going out, being together!-=-
If they're lucky. Some kids' problem with the parents relating to
them is the parents taking away their stuff. When parents think
being a good parent is forbidding TV, limiting conversation and
reading, and making a child go to bed early, what stuff does that kid
have? With an older kid, if his attempts to communicate with the
parents are punished by grounding and removal of allowance or phone,
what stuff does he have?
-=- Toys seem to be parent substitutes, but require a lot of management,
money and storage. They also separate you from you kids as you
constantly
clean, and juggle such things.
-=-Our house is the messiest place, but when the kids and I are
spending our
time together rather than me cleaning it suddenly become neater and
inexpicably cleaner.-=-
"Inexplicably" can be explained, but I want to point out a couple of
places where the writer dodged using "I."
Toys require nothing. Toys require no management, some need new
batteries (and so might "require" money), but they don't know, those
toys, whether they've been stored or not.
Toys don't separate a mother from her children.
The second paragraph above about the house being messy might have been
an "I" thought too, rather than "the kids and I." When the mom spends
time with the kids, and is a part of their play and their doings, she
KNOWS why the art supplies or toys are out. She was a part of the
play, or the creation, and she's cleaning up part of her own "mess."
When the mom has been separate physically or mentally (or both), she
sees a strange, inexplicable <g> mess. She didn't learn what the
children had been doing. She has no memories of WHY the paints are
mixed the way they are and the papers are scattered out to dry as they
are.
As it was originally worded, it sounds partly as though if kids play
alone they make a mess, but if kids play with their mom things are
neater. Changing those thoughts to the mother's role and awareness
and presence will make it all look clearer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
relating,
going out, being together!-=-
If they're lucky. Some kids' problem with the parents relating to
them is the parents taking away their stuff. When parents think
being a good parent is forbidding TV, limiting conversation and
reading, and making a child go to bed early, what stuff does that kid
have? With an older kid, if his attempts to communicate with the
parents are punished by grounding and removal of allowance or phone,
what stuff does he have?
-=- Toys seem to be parent substitutes, but require a lot of management,
money and storage. They also separate you from you kids as you
constantly
clean, and juggle such things.
-=-Our house is the messiest place, but when the kids and I are
spending our
time together rather than me cleaning it suddenly become neater and
inexpicably cleaner.-=-
"Inexplicably" can be explained, but I want to point out a couple of
places where the writer dodged using "I."
Toys require nothing. Toys require no management, some need new
batteries (and so might "require" money), but they don't know, those
toys, whether they've been stored or not.
Toys don't separate a mother from her children.
The second paragraph above about the house being messy might have been
an "I" thought too, rather than "the kids and I." When the mom spends
time with the kids, and is a part of their play and their doings, she
KNOWS why the art supplies or toys are out. She was a part of the
play, or the creation, and she's cleaning up part of her own "mess."
When the mom has been separate physically or mentally (or both), she
sees a strange, inexplicable <g> mess. She didn't learn what the
children had been doing. She has no memories of WHY the paints are
mixed the way they are and the papers are scattered out to dry as they
are.
As it was originally worded, it sounds partly as though if kids play
alone they make a mess, but if kids play with their mom things are
neater. Changing those thoughts to the mother's role and awareness
and presence will make it all look clearer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> I am realizing that "stuff" is what people have when they are notOh, I don't know about that. We have plenty of "stuff." We like
> relating,
> going out, being together!
"stuff." We can afford "stuff." And "stuff" also allows us to relate,
go out and be together.
My daughter is really into Pokemon. She likes the cards, the DS games,
the movies, the plushies, playing Battle Revolution on the Wii, making
clay versions of them. I try to find the latest Pokemon thing for her,
because I know it feeds her imagination. She was very taken with the
recent Eevee evolution, so I found a vendor in Japan that sold the
plushies. She carries them everywhere, makes up stories about them,
creates models of them. When she plays the characters on her DS, she
and I come up with names and team names together. She tells me all
about her leveling up in the game and whether certain characters work
well as a team. She talks to me about the story at the end of one of
the games and how she cries each time she plays to the end. We head to
Toys R Us when a new Pokemon can be wirelessly uploaded to her DS,
make a plan to get there as soon as the store opens and get some
breakfast while we're at it. She dressed as a Skitty (we worked on the
costume together) at her own funshop at a conference. She connected
with others who love Pokemon, too. She has *lots* of cards, lots of
games, lots of "stuff." And when she's done with it, someone else will
benefit from her collection. I don't see how those toys are separating
us, at all.
I have not found that stuff has hindered our relationship, except when
I was in "let's clean up this stuff" or "you have too much of this
stuff" mode when Michelle was littler. She didn't want to clean it up.
She likes things everywhere. She likes lots of things. I didnt. I got
mad, because I wanted all the "stuff" tidied up. This was at the
beginning of unschooling for us, when I was letting go of how things
ought to look and be and started to concentrate on our relationship
instead. Toys and relationship, I found, are not mutually exclusive.
> This has been a revelation to me. For instanceAre things therefore bad?
> my children don't have a special toy. TOYs are things.
> When they want aSo, rags, sticks, and sand are better than toys?
> hug they get one from a parent or sibling. Apart from computers,
> wii and
> television my kids can play with rags, sticks, sand and have such a
> good
> time.
> Toys seem to be parent substitutes, but require a lot of management,Only if you let them separate you from your children! If all you can
> money and storage. They also separate you from you kids as you
> constantly
> clean, and juggle such things.
think of is "there are too many toys and I have to clean them up,"
you're already in a place where enjoying toys *with* your kids won't
ever be an option. That leads to "toys get in the way of relationships
- let's get rid of them" when it's the parent who is getting in the
way, instead.
> Our house is the messiest place, but when the kids and I areBecause they don't play freely? Because you manage the situation?
> spending our
> time together rather than me cleaning it suddenly become neater and
> inexpicably cleaner.
>I think changing your attitude entirely about cleaning will help. Have
>
> I have realized that there were two radically opposed ideas at play
> here.
> One, I needed to clean the house to be a good mother. Thus I needed
> to be
> alone, and then enforce this clean policy on the family that the
> house being
> clean was sacrosanct. I would then be too tired to be any fun or too
> invested in the clean house to risk all that work.
>
> Idea number two is that I need to spend time with the kids that is
> fun/compassionate. While I was cleaning the kids were using "mother
> substitutes": toys, tv, junk food...They were patiently waiting for
> me to
> finish and be engaged with them. Duh! They were leaving wrappers
> on the
> couch while I tackled the other room, then leaving mess in the
> kitchen while
> I organized the toys.
you read this?
http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
>You also might want to explore further the notion of "toys, tv, junk
food" being negative in and of themselves. There seems to be some
judgment about these things, aside from the cleaning discussion.
Robin B.
Pam Sorooshian
>> > I am realizing that "stuff" is what people have when they are notPeople can really connect over "stuff," too, though.
>> > relating,
>> > going out, being together!
>>
I do kind of get the point of what Shannon was feeling when she wrote
that. When kids are living somewhat separate lives from their parents,
the "stuff" seems to be their focus - I mean from the parents' point of
view as outsiders to the game/play/creativity/etc. When parents are more
interested, involved, paying attention, participating, or just more
thoughtfully observant, then what the kids are doing with the stuff is
seen for the more complex process that it truly is involving creativity,
problem-solving, delving into relationships, or all kinds of things.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/27/2009 12:00 PM, Robin Bentley wrote:
A wind-up bear that played a drum. It was incredibly precious to him and
he was very very careful with it. Otherwise, he played with rocks and
dirt and sticks, mostly.
When our kids were little he ranted a few times about how they didn't
need so many toys and they should play with rocks and sticks - how it
was more "natural." I was patient (it wasn't like he was actually taking
the toys away from them, just complaining to me) but finally I said,
"Yeah well exactly which plants in our backyard do you want them to pull
apart to get those sticks?" We live in suburbia, not a forest (like he
did).
-pam
>My husband had ONE toy. Ever. Seriously he only ever had one single toy.
> So, rags, sticks, and sand are better than toys?
>
>
A wind-up bear that played a drum. It was incredibly precious to him and
he was very very careful with it. Otherwise, he played with rocks and
dirt and sticks, mostly.
When our kids were little he ranted a few times about how they didn't
need so many toys and they should play with rocks and sticks - how it
was more "natural." I was patient (it wasn't like he was actually taking
the toys away from them, just complaining to me) but finally I said,
"Yeah well exactly which plants in our backyard do you want them to pull
apart to get those sticks?" We live in suburbia, not a forest (like he
did).
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-When our kids were little he ranted a few times about how they didn't
need so many toys and they should play with rocks and sticks - how it
was more "natural." I was patient (it wasn't like he was actually taking
the toys away from them, just complaining to me) but finally I said,
"Yeah well exactly which plants in our backyard do you want them to pull
apart to get those sticks?" We live in suburbia, not a forest (like he
did).-=-
My mom used to rant that she and her brothers played with snuff
bottles for cars, making roads in the sand, and we were spoiled
because we had toys. Even in the 1960's, there were no snuff bottles
to play with. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
need so many toys and they should play with rocks and sticks - how it
was more "natural." I was patient (it wasn't like he was actually taking
the toys away from them, just complaining to me) but finally I said,
"Yeah well exactly which plants in our backyard do you want them to pull
apart to get those sticks?" We live in suburbia, not a forest (like he
did).-=-
My mom used to rant that she and her brothers played with snuff
bottles for cars, making roads in the sand, and we were spoiled
because we had toys. Even in the 1960's, there were no snuff bottles
to play with. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cally
thanks for these thoughtful posts everyone. I realized after the pain my children had gone through all the years I worked 40-60 hours weekly - and they spent away from me in public school, after I had always nursed and always had them in our bed and I had NOT listened to what my instincts were - I am STILL atoning as I see them heal little by little.
It is an ever evolving process of atonement and change that has carried me through these first 3 years of getting back to the roots of un schooling and loving my children in a way that I feel is the right way - and not listening to what others are saying is "the right way".
I tell them every day how much I love being with them and why I love being with them. Not only as an apology, but the truth as I feel it. And yes I also apologize for being human and not paying attention or rather "not recognizing" the importance of learning how to listen to my instincts and follow what I knew to be the "right way" and listening and meeting their needs. This also helps them to see that we adults do make mistakes, and also why they should follow, trust and rely on their own instincts.
I saw a key chain in one of our favorite "hippie" shops that read "what about no don't you understand?" I laughed then put it back realizing how much I still have to change - when those words are still in my "ready to wear" vocabulary.
Peace
Carole in CT
"Whatever you believe you can do or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, and magic to it."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
B: 1749 AD D: 1832 AD German Dramatist, Novelist, Painter, Poet, Writer
________________________________
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 7:19:56 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Cleaning Evolution...part 1 of ?
I do kind of get the point of what Shannon was feeling when she wrote
that. When kids are living somewhat separate lives from their parents,
the "stuff" seems to be their focus - I mean from the parents' point of
view as outsiders to the game/play/creativit y/etc. When parents are more
interested, involved, paying attention, participating, or just more
thoughtfully observant, then what the kids are doing with the stuff is
seen for the more complex process that it truly is involving creativity,
problem-solving, delving into relationships, or all kinds of things.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It is an ever evolving process of atonement and change that has carried me through these first 3 years of getting back to the roots of un schooling and loving my children in a way that I feel is the right way - and not listening to what others are saying is "the right way".
I tell them every day how much I love being with them and why I love being with them. Not only as an apology, but the truth as I feel it. And yes I also apologize for being human and not paying attention or rather "not recognizing" the importance of learning how to listen to my instincts and follow what I knew to be the "right way" and listening and meeting their needs. This also helps them to see that we adults do make mistakes, and also why they should follow, trust and rely on their own instincts.
I saw a key chain in one of our favorite "hippie" shops that read "what about no don't you understand?" I laughed then put it back realizing how much I still have to change - when those words are still in my "ready to wear" vocabulary.
Peace
Carole in CT
"Whatever you believe you can do or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, and magic to it."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
B: 1749 AD D: 1832 AD German Dramatist, Novelist, Painter, Poet, Writer
________________________________
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 7:19:56 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Cleaning Evolution...part 1 of ?
>> > I am realizing that "stuff" is what people have when they are notPeople can really connect over "stuff," too, though.
>> > relating,
>> > going out, being together!
>>
I do kind of get the point of what Shannon was feeling when she wrote
that. When kids are living somewhat separate lives from their parents,
the "stuff" seems to be their focus - I mean from the parents' point of
view as outsiders to the game/play/creativit y/etc. When parents are more
interested, involved, paying attention, participating, or just more
thoughtfully observant, then what the kids are doing with the stuff is
seen for the more complex process that it truly is involving creativity,
problem-solving, delving into relationships, or all kinds of things.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Verna
> "Yeah well exactly which plants in our backyard do you want them to pullmy kids do play with those kinds of things too though... just cause they have toys doesnt mean they dont use everyday objects to play with too. they have gotten days of play from empty boxes, plastic cups, big sticks, etc.. while there bikes, wii and huge boxes of legos waited for other days to get played with. besides, has your child ever picked up a stick at a park.. half the mothers there are ready to pounce.
> apart to get those sticks?" We live in suburbia, not a forest (like he
> did).-=-
>
> My mom used to rant that she and her brothers played with snuff
> bottles for cars, making roads in the sand, and we were spoiled
> because we had toys. Even in the 1960's, there were no snuff bottles
> to play with. <g>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Robin Bentley
>Michelle, at 14, still plays with sticks. She crafts bows and arrows
> my kids do play with those kinds of things too though... just cause
> they have toys doesnt mean they dont use everyday objects to play
> with too. they have gotten days of play from empty boxes, plastic
> cups, big sticks, etc.. while there bikes, wii and huge boxes of
> legos waited for other days to get played with. besides, has your
> child ever picked up a stick at a park.. half the mothers there are
> ready to pounce.
>
from them <g>.
Robin B.
emiLy Q.
>> my kids do play with those kinds of things too though... just causeMy 5 year old made a bow and arrows out of sticks a few days ago. We are
>> they have toys doesnt mean they dont use everyday objects to play
>> with too. they have gotten days of play from empty boxes, plastic
>> cups, big sticks, etc.. while there bikes, wii and huge boxes of
>> legos waited for other days to get played with. besides, has your
>> child ever picked up a stick at a park.. half the mothers there are
>> ready to pounce.
>>
> Michelle, at 14, still plays with sticks. She crafts bows and arrows
> from them <g>.
going to try to make a quiver with plastic lace, and she's going to work on
more arrows too.
I do think the original poster meant that the house actually does stay
cleaner because she kind of cleans up as she plays with the kids. This is
what my mother's helper does, and it always amazes me! LOL
-emiLy, mom to Delia (5.5) & Henry (2)
I love EC!
http://www.WhatisEC.com
Marina DeLuca-Howard
If I implied that children shouldn't have toys then I apologize.
If I sounded judgemental about stuff being a substitute for parental
love then I have to admit I was. It starts with *the lovey* a baby
receives: a cute bear to be a substitute for mom in the next room, ignoring
the crying. It starts with pacifiers which go in the mouth instead of the
breast to control eating or limit contact or to give mom 'time". I didn't
use loveys or pacifiers and wonder if that is why my kids are attached to
people rather than things.
My family and I all have "special games" and toys, but have always shared
them willingly. I never thought about this much until I started reading the
posts but my kids share with one another, with friends and with strange
children, too. My kids will wear my lipstick or eyeshadow for play. I
don't have a problem. I have non-toxic make-up and I don't use it often.
When we go out I admit I try to look like a "regular" mom. This is a bit of
a safety issue, as I don't want' anyone finding us weird and reporting us to
authorities.
I used to take the theft of a dslite or gameboy as an affront. But my kids
taught me to let go of this idea. Two of my kids had expensive toys go
awol. I confronted other parents, but learned that if some people are so
attached to things that they will steal them from others its pretty scary to
invest emotionally in "stuff". I learned from my kids not to do this when
they philosophically dealt with "missing" toys by saving their money and
re-purchasing them and then being choosier about whom they shared with. I
still have ideas about justice and friendship to work through<grin>. I did
want to do something about the the thefts but my kids were willing to let go
and they talked about what they had learned and they didn't want to get
anyone in "trouble".
I think that if toys are used to help relate that is great, but if toys are
used as a distraction from relating then that doesn't work. My kids are
able and have watched marathon tv. They don't do this now because it
doesn't interest them. If they watched for six hours I would be sitting
with them.
I was merely sharing things that work for me...spending time with the kids
minimizes mess. Mess, housework and organization were the original posts.
Its also helpful to create that infrastructure for toys: shelves and boxes
designed by the kids keep things safe. Toys do require cleaning, repairing
and recharging. Children choke on loose pieces of toys.I once suffered pain
for weeks after a sprained groin. Marbles on the kitchen floor unattended
while walking with a nursling in a sling don't mix :) I wasn't thinking of
asthetics or my attachment to "cleaning"--just the safety of everyone.
Marina
--
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If I sounded judgemental about stuff being a substitute for parental
love then I have to admit I was. It starts with *the lovey* a baby
receives: a cute bear to be a substitute for mom in the next room, ignoring
the crying. It starts with pacifiers which go in the mouth instead of the
breast to control eating or limit contact or to give mom 'time". I didn't
use loveys or pacifiers and wonder if that is why my kids are attached to
people rather than things.
My family and I all have "special games" and toys, but have always shared
them willingly. I never thought about this much until I started reading the
posts but my kids share with one another, with friends and with strange
children, too. My kids will wear my lipstick or eyeshadow for play. I
don't have a problem. I have non-toxic make-up and I don't use it often.
When we go out I admit I try to look like a "regular" mom. This is a bit of
a safety issue, as I don't want' anyone finding us weird and reporting us to
authorities.
I used to take the theft of a dslite or gameboy as an affront. But my kids
taught me to let go of this idea. Two of my kids had expensive toys go
awol. I confronted other parents, but learned that if some people are so
attached to things that they will steal them from others its pretty scary to
invest emotionally in "stuff". I learned from my kids not to do this when
they philosophically dealt with "missing" toys by saving their money and
re-purchasing them and then being choosier about whom they shared with. I
still have ideas about justice and friendship to work through<grin>. I did
want to do something about the the thefts but my kids were willing to let go
and they talked about what they had learned and they didn't want to get
anyone in "trouble".
I think that if toys are used to help relate that is great, but if toys are
used as a distraction from relating then that doesn't work. My kids are
able and have watched marathon tv. They don't do this now because it
doesn't interest them. If they watched for six hours I would be sitting
with them.
I was merely sharing things that work for me...spending time with the kids
minimizes mess. Mess, housework and organization were the original posts.
Its also helpful to create that infrastructure for toys: shelves and boxes
designed by the kids keep things safe. Toys do require cleaning, repairing
and recharging. Children choke on loose pieces of toys.I once suffered pain
for weeks after a sprained groin. Marbles on the kitchen floor unattended
while walking with a nursling in a sling don't mix :) I wasn't thinking of
asthetics or my attachment to "cleaning"--just the safety of everyone.
Marina
--
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Toys do require cleaning, repairing
and recharging.-=-
I think my point was missed on that. Toys don't "require" those
things. Those needs are of the owners of the toys, not the toys
themselves.
Sandra
and recharging.-=-
I think my point was missed on that. Toys don't "require" those
things. Those needs are of the owners of the toys, not the toys
themselves.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 30, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Marina DeLuca-Howard wrote:
generalizations, your thoughts have swung too far. Sometimes people
need to do that! Like the "Always say yes!" suggestion. They need to
temporarily go to the other extreme so when they swing back it's for
the right reasons and done with thought and not just knee jerk
reactions.
But I think as a general view of the relationship between kids and
toys, your view point won't help others be more at peace with their
kids. Maybe your kids just like people! :-) Some people don't get
attached to things. Making a generalization from your own family
doesn't explain families that are very different.
For kids who aren't so people oriented -- and my daughter wasn't -- I
would have understood her less if I saw her love of Pokemon and
Beanies as a sign she needed more of my attention. What she really
wanted was a robot who would do exactly what she wanted, just like
Pokemon did for their trainers ;-)
Theories can help us see a situation differently but ultimately it's
our kids who tell us the truth through their actions. Being tuned
into our kids will help us understand their unique selves better than
other people's advice or grand sweeping generalized theories of what
kids are like.
Joyce
> It starts with *the lovey* a babyYou're right as far as that is concerned. But as far as
> receives: a cute bear to be a substitute for mom in the next room,
> ignoring
> the crying. It starts with pacifiers which go in the mouth instead
> of the
> breast to control eating or limit contact or to give mom 'time".
generalizations, your thoughts have swung too far. Sometimes people
need to do that! Like the "Always say yes!" suggestion. They need to
temporarily go to the other extreme so when they swing back it's for
the right reasons and done with thought and not just knee jerk
reactions.
But I think as a general view of the relationship between kids and
toys, your view point won't help others be more at peace with their
kids. Maybe your kids just like people! :-) Some people don't get
attached to things. Making a generalization from your own family
doesn't explain families that are very different.
For kids who aren't so people oriented -- and my daughter wasn't -- I
would have understood her less if I saw her love of Pokemon and
Beanies as a sign she needed more of my attention. What she really
wanted was a robot who would do exactly what she wanted, just like
Pokemon did for their trainers ;-)
Theories can help us see a situation differently but ultimately it's
our kids who tell us the truth through their actions. Being tuned
into our kids will help us understand their unique selves better than
other people's advice or grand sweeping generalized theories of what
kids are like.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-Theories can help us see a situation differently but ultimately it's
our kids who tell us the truth through their actions. Being tuned
into our kids will help us understand their unique selves better than
other people's advice or grand sweeping generalized theories of what
kids are like.-=-
But doesn't this bring us back to moms who say "My child craves
structure" or "TV turns my child into a zombie"?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
our kids who tell us the truth through their actions. Being tuned
into our kids will help us understand their unique selves better than
other people's advice or grand sweeping generalized theories of what
kids are like.-=-
But doesn't this bring us back to moms who say "My child craves
structure" or "TV turns my child into a zombie"?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think some unschoolers come to feel they have an obligation to
support risky or dangerous things equally with wonderful, clearly
uplifting things.-=-
And this, from the piercing topic, same question:
Doesn't this bring us back to moms who say "My child craves
structure" or "TV turns my child into a zombie"?
(I wrote everything above this myself...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
support risky or dangerous things equally with wonderful, clearly
uplifting things.-=-
And this, from the piercing topic, same question:
Doesn't this bring us back to moms who say "My child craves
structure" or "TV turns my child into a zombie"?
(I wrote everything above this myself...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On May 31, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
about "atonement" recently, Sandra. It's "discernment." Traditionally
meant in the sense of "discerning the will of God," for me it's useful
as a concept whenever I'm thinking about a question like this one:
when does "trust your experience of your child over a general theory"
become "I know my own kid best which is why I restrict TV"?
In a religious context, you might ask, "Well, I'm trying to figure out
if it's God's will for me to leave my family and become a missionary
in Latvia." One aspect of discernment can be testing this leading
against other things you know about God's will--what do your religious
texts say about doing good works versus honoring commitments? What
does your own past experience say? What do people you trust say? (In
my religion, Quakerism, you can ask for what we call a "clearness
committee"--four or five people to sit down with you and lend their
wisdom to your process.)
In unschooling, you can test something like this against your other
principles. What keeps, "it is best to respond to the individual
child's needs" from devolving into "each mother knows best for her own
kids and so we have no basis to say one choice is generally better
than another or to encourage her to choose differently" is that we
have principles we can test against.
Which choice invests a parent's trust in the child?
Which choice increases the child's autonomy?
Which choice reduces conflict and improves relationships within the
family?
Which choice respects the child's personal and bodily integrity?
Which choice honors the needs of all members of the family rather than
automatically elevating one person's needs over another's?
The thing about discernment is that it acknowledges that these
questions can be complex and that there is not one answer for
everybody, while at the same time pointing to underlying principles
that can be used to guide and test our decisions. It acknowledges that
the specifics can look very different in two families acting by the
same principles. It demands that individuals be honest about their
motivations. It asks for mindfulness.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, almost 2
> Being tunedThis is where I find a word from religion useful--like you thinking
> into our kids will help us understand their unique selves better than
> other people's advice or grand sweeping generalized theories of what
> kids are like.-=-
>
> But doesn't this bring us back to moms who say "My child craves
> structure" or "TV turns my child into a zombie"?
about "atonement" recently, Sandra. It's "discernment." Traditionally
meant in the sense of "discerning the will of God," for me it's useful
as a concept whenever I'm thinking about a question like this one:
when does "trust your experience of your child over a general theory"
become "I know my own kid best which is why I restrict TV"?
In a religious context, you might ask, "Well, I'm trying to figure out
if it's God's will for me to leave my family and become a missionary
in Latvia." One aspect of discernment can be testing this leading
against other things you know about God's will--what do your religious
texts say about doing good works versus honoring commitments? What
does your own past experience say? What do people you trust say? (In
my religion, Quakerism, you can ask for what we call a "clearness
committee"--four or five people to sit down with you and lend their
wisdom to your process.)
In unschooling, you can test something like this against your other
principles. What keeps, "it is best to respond to the individual
child's needs" from devolving into "each mother knows best for her own
kids and so we have no basis to say one choice is generally better
than another or to encourage her to choose differently" is that we
have principles we can test against.
Which choice invests a parent's trust in the child?
Which choice increases the child's autonomy?
Which choice reduces conflict and improves relationships within the
family?
Which choice respects the child's personal and bodily integrity?
Which choice honors the needs of all members of the family rather than
automatically elevating one person's needs over another's?
The thing about discernment is that it acknowledges that these
questions can be complex and that there is not one answer for
everybody, while at the same time pointing to underlying principles
that can be used to guide and test our decisions. It acknowledges that
the specifics can look very different in two families acting by the
same principles. It demands that individuals be honest about their
motivations. It asks for mindfulness.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, almost 2
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
One scenario of mothers know best.
I have a friend from La Leche League that also homeschools. She is a very gentle and connected mother in many ways.
She is also a very intelligent person BUT she parents in many ways with FEAR. She does not see it as so.
Her kids are severely limited on what they can eat. She has even put her oldest on a diet when he was 5-6. He is a husky boy.
The parents are overweight ( heck I am too). They are very afraid their kids are going to become obese.
Yesterday they came over and my son wanted to show some video games to her son. They have known each other since they were babies. Her son told my son he could not because his mom won't let him. So my son went to ask her why.
He just could not understand. I later explained to him how some parents raise their kids diferent than in our home.
She does not even know anything about video games. She is afraid it will make them violent or make them fat from sitting all day.
The kids used to be able to watch TV for 30 minutes a day but now they don't have TV only movies and those are extremely
restricted. Even Madagascar was deemed too violent when they saw it.
Again it is because she fears TV will corrupt their brains and turn them to mush. TV is a waiste of time they should be reading a book.She cannot see how much they could be learing from it.
Yesterday I offer some cut up watermelon I had for the kids while we played in the yard. The oldest asked me what else I had for them to eat. He knows we have yummy stuff that he can only eat when here. Very sad.
They also don't play in the computer. Not allowed yet to do that. Children should be playing outside or doing crafts.
The point I was going to make is that she knows her son better. If she would let him eat whatever he wanted and how much he wanted he would not stop eating and only eat "junk" and lots. But what she can't see is that she created that.
So does mommy really knows best in that case?
She does and she doesn't.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have a friend from La Leche League that also homeschools. She is a very gentle and connected mother in many ways.
She is also a very intelligent person BUT she parents in many ways with FEAR. She does not see it as so.
Her kids are severely limited on what they can eat. She has even put her oldest on a diet when he was 5-6. He is a husky boy.
The parents are overweight ( heck I am too). They are very afraid their kids are going to become obese.
Yesterday they came over and my son wanted to show some video games to her son. They have known each other since they were babies. Her son told my son he could not because his mom won't let him. So my son went to ask her why.
He just could not understand. I later explained to him how some parents raise their kids diferent than in our home.
She does not even know anything about video games. She is afraid it will make them violent or make them fat from sitting all day.
The kids used to be able to watch TV for 30 minutes a day but now they don't have TV only movies and those are extremely
restricted. Even Madagascar was deemed too violent when they saw it.
Again it is because she fears TV will corrupt their brains and turn them to mush. TV is a waiste of time they should be reading a book.She cannot see how much they could be learing from it.
Yesterday I offer some cut up watermelon I had for the kids while we played in the yard. The oldest asked me what else I had for them to eat. He knows we have yummy stuff that he can only eat when here. Very sad.
They also don't play in the computer. Not allowed yet to do that. Children should be playing outside or doing crafts.
The point I was going to make is that she knows her son better. If she would let him eat whatever he wanted and how much he wanted he would not stop eating and only eat "junk" and lots. But what she can't see is that she created that.
So does mommy really knows best in that case?
She does and she doesn't.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
. Maybe your kids just like people! :-) Some people don't get
attached to things. Making a generalization from your own family
doesn't explain families that are very different.
--------------------------------------
or a fsmily with one of each...my daughter couldn't have cared less about toys, never did 'parallel play' and uswd to confuse the heck out of other toddlers by expecting interaction. She also didn't care if anorhwe kid rook the toy she was playing with as long aa they'd interact with her.
My son was all about the toys. And things.
and if anything, he being the youngest, got more 'attachment parenting' style thank she did. He eas nursed longer, slept with me longer, and experienced not attempts at distancing with a pacifier, a 'lovey', etc.
In my experience and obervation, its way more about temperament and personality than family culture,
and I laughed out loud about the robot desire because my son srill wants that, or even better, clones of me so one can sleep, one can do whatever I want, and one whatever he wants. So, he is almost 11 and its only recently more about people and less about toys.
Lyla
attached to things. Making a generalization from your own family
doesn't explain families that are very different.
--------------------------------------
or a fsmily with one of each...my daughter couldn't have cared less about toys, never did 'parallel play' and uswd to confuse the heck out of other toddlers by expecting interaction. She also didn't care if anorhwe kid rook the toy she was playing with as long aa they'd interact with her.
My son was all about the toys. And things.
and if anything, he being the youngest, got more 'attachment parenting' style thank she did. He eas nursed longer, slept with me longer, and experienced not attempts at distancing with a pacifier, a 'lovey', etc.
In my experience and obervation, its way more about temperament and personality than family culture,
and I laughed out loud about the robot desire because my son srill wants that, or even better, clones of me so one can sleep, one can do whatever I want, and one whatever he wants. So, he is almost 11 and its only recently more about people and less about toys.
Lyla
Su Penn
On May 31, 2009, at 12:22 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
to "control," Alix. I have a friend who is pretty judgmental about how
many and which video games my kids play. She wishes that when her son
visits us (he stays overnight often) that he and Eric wouldn't just
play video games the whole time. She said it to me again the other
day, in a kind of "you need to make this happen" way, and I said,
"He's the one driving that, you know." I told her that often when Noah
is here for a whole day, it reaches a point where Eric is saying, "I'm
bored with video games...let's do something else," and Noah replies,
"Well, we can play a different video game!"
The other day he came over and both my boys were outside running
around with swords. Noah got out of the car, walked over to them, and
said, "Let's go inside and play video games."
My friend thinks _I_ let my (and her) kids play "too many video
games." I think she doesn't let her son play enough, or he wouldn't be
so fixated when he comes here, where they're not restricted. I told
her that we love having him visit (it's true, he's a nice kid) and
that if she wants him to do something other than play video games when
he comes, she should bring him to visit more often so he has a chance
of getting his fill.
She also has been very adamant that he is NOT to be allowed to play
Halo with my kids. So he comes here and talks about Halo a lot. The
other day he stood in front of a rack with literally 50+ video games
in it, saying, "I wish I could play Halo...I'm pretty sure Halo would
be the most fun...but my mom won't let me." It's like the textbook
example of what happens with restrictions.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, almost 2
> So does mommy really knows best in that case?I really like this story about a mom creating the problem she then has
> She does and she doesn't.
to "control," Alix. I have a friend who is pretty judgmental about how
many and which video games my kids play. She wishes that when her son
visits us (he stays overnight often) that he and Eric wouldn't just
play video games the whole time. She said it to me again the other
day, in a kind of "you need to make this happen" way, and I said,
"He's the one driving that, you know." I told her that often when Noah
is here for a whole day, it reaches a point where Eric is saying, "I'm
bored with video games...let's do something else," and Noah replies,
"Well, we can play a different video game!"
The other day he came over and both my boys were outside running
around with swords. Noah got out of the car, walked over to them, and
said, "Let's go inside and play video games."
My friend thinks _I_ let my (and her) kids play "too many video
games." I think she doesn't let her son play enough, or he wouldn't be
so fixated when he comes here, where they're not restricted. I told
her that we love having him visit (it's true, he's a nice kid) and
that if she wants him to do something other than play video games when
he comes, she should bring him to visit more often so he has a chance
of getting his fill.
She also has been very adamant that he is NOT to be allowed to play
Halo with my kids. So he comes here and talks about Halo a lot. The
other day he stood in front of a rack with literally 50+ video games
in it, saying, "I wish I could play Halo...I'm pretty sure Halo would
be the most fun...but my mom won't let me." It's like the textbook
example of what happens with restrictions.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, almost 2
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Exactly Su. I just wish this kid could play any video game. He cannot play any. Even here.
She used to let him play the Nintendo DS when he visited but that is all he wanted to do and talk about later so now
she has told him he cannot.
She now has proof that video games are addicted and bad.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She used to let him play the Nintendo DS when he visited but that is all he wanted to do and talk about later so now
she has told him he cannot.
She now has proof that video games are addicted and bad.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>would let him eat whatever he wanted and how much he wanted he would not
> The point I was going to make is that she knows her son better. If she
stop eating and only eat "junk" and lots. But what she can't see is that
she created that.
> So does mommy really knows best in that case?Right! We know someone like this too. Her daughter ran away from home.
> She does and she doesn't.
>
She insists she knows her daughter best. She bases this on the fact
that they talk about things. It's just the 2 of them, so I'm sure that
they talk about things. However, what I see, is that the daughter
really can't talk about her true feelings, she has to gaurd herself and
phrase things in such a way that her mom will accept and agree with.
I've been there done that with my own mother.
By all accounts we had a decent relationship. We talked and did things
together, BUT, it's nothing like the relationship that I've built with
my own daughter. There are still things that I can't talk to my mother
about. Chamille has never felt like she couldn't relay her real
feelings to me about things, or that she must phrase things in ways that
I will accept. She knows that I will accept her thoughts as is and
discuss things openly and honestly. It's about honest candor, I think.
So many parents don't want to hear the honest candor of their kids
because it doesn't mesh with their own views, and by hearing it, they
feel they must do something with that information. The reaction of most
traditionally minded parents is to control those thoughts of their kids,
to force those thoughts to conform to their own ideals of what they
believe their kids should be thinking and feeling. This is largely why
parents suddenly end up with teens that they perceive as being
rebellious. At some point, in order for a teen with ideas that don't
mesh with their parents, to get what they want, they will have to make
their parents lose. It becomes a battle of whose will is stronger, who
will win that battle. Some kids give up trying until they leave the
home and never return, or wait years to talk to their parents honestly,
if ever. Some kids have stronger wills and get what they want by
defying their parents, and live in continuous battles with their parents
over it. Either way it creates pain, pain that could have been avoided.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Some kids give up trying until they leave the
home and never return, or wait years to talk to their parents honestly,
if ever. Some kids have stronger wills and get what they want by
defying their parents, and live in continuous battles with their parents
over it. Either way it creates pain, pain that could have been
avoided.-=-
Keith never was honest with his mom. We were at her memorial service
yesterday, and his brother did the eulogy. People at her church just
loved her. She was the treasurer and she sang in the choir. His
brother Gerry was ten years older than Keith. He reported in glowing
terms of a woman unfamiliar to Keith in some ways, and more unfamiliar
to me. Den leader? Not for Keith. Taught the boys to sew? Not
Keith; he learned in the theatre tech classes she had told him were
stupid to take.
Keith told me the morning we were leaving that his brother treats him
like a stranger in some ways, or worse--as someone who's not
trustworthy or reliable. Not even the benefit of the doubt. He was
worried we wouldn't be there on time. Keith is always on time, or
early.
Keith is fifty-two and his family never got to know him. Because of
me, he presented the appearance of being an attentive son (cards and
phone calls and occasional gifts).
My kids are honest. They're not afraid to say I'm crowding them or
bugging them if I am, because it's rare and they know I won't yell
about it, but I'll give them space, and wait for them to come closer,
which never takes long.
Partners rather than adversaries.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
home and never return, or wait years to talk to their parents honestly,
if ever. Some kids have stronger wills and get what they want by
defying their parents, and live in continuous battles with their parents
over it. Either way it creates pain, pain that could have been
avoided.-=-
Keith never was honest with his mom. We were at her memorial service
yesterday, and his brother did the eulogy. People at her church just
loved her. She was the treasurer and she sang in the choir. His
brother Gerry was ten years older than Keith. He reported in glowing
terms of a woman unfamiliar to Keith in some ways, and more unfamiliar
to me. Den leader? Not for Keith. Taught the boys to sew? Not
Keith; he learned in the theatre tech classes she had told him were
stupid to take.
Keith told me the morning we were leaving that his brother treats him
like a stranger in some ways, or worse--as someone who's not
trustworthy or reliable. Not even the benefit of the doubt. He was
worried we wouldn't be there on time. Keith is always on time, or
early.
Keith is fifty-two and his family never got to know him. Because of
me, he presented the appearance of being an attentive son (cards and
phone calls and occasional gifts).
My kids are honest. They're not afraid to say I'm crowding them or
bugging them if I am, because it's rare and they know I won't yell
about it, but I'll give them space, and wait for them to come closer,
which never takes long.
Partners rather than adversaries.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 31/05/2009 15:52:07 GMT Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:
-=-Being tuned
into our kids will help us understand their unique selves better than
other people's advice or grand sweeping generalized theories of what
kids are like.-=-
Sandra replied -=-But doesn't this bring us back to moms who say "My child
craves
structure" or "TV turns my child into a zombie"?-=-
With regard to craving structure, I was that mom. And I always believed
every word. I thought I was tuned in to my daughter, but I'm fairly sure
now that I was more tuned in to other people's perceptions of her. It's very
easy to be self-delusional when mainstream society is regurgitating the
same kind of opinions.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra@... writes:
-=-Being tuned
into our kids will help us understand their unique selves better than
other people's advice or grand sweeping generalized theories of what
kids are like.-=-
Sandra replied -=-But doesn't this bring us back to moms who say "My child
craves
structure" or "TV turns my child into a zombie"?-=-
With regard to craving structure, I was that mom. And I always believed
every word. I thought I was tuned in to my daughter, but I'm fairly sure
now that I was more tuned in to other people's perceptions of her. It's very
easy to be self-delusional when mainstream society is regurgitating the
same kind of opinions.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
I have been making grand sweeping generalizations and theorizing a lot :)
That is the fun thing about this list. There aren't too many places I can
take my specific experiences and take them to far out conclusions and get
interesting feedback.
Okay, it is true the toys don't need anything. But to be safe for human
"consumption" I need certain conditions to be met for the toys and to enjoy
the toys the kids need certain conditions to be met.
My kids also like pokemon. I know way too much for an adult about
"evolving" and fighting and eggs and Ash and "training". I don't mean my
kids are totally people oriented. We have Yu gi oh, pokemon cards, and a
recent acquisition I haven't learned anything about yet :)
Su wrote:
Which choice invests a parent's trust in the child?
Which choice increases the child's autonomy?
Which choice reduces conflict and improves relationships within the
family?
Which choice respects the child's personal and bodily integrity?
Which choice honors the needs of all members of the family rather than
automatically elevating one person's needs over another's?
The thing about discernment is that it acknowledges that these
questions can be complex and that there is not one answer for
everybody, while at the same time pointing to underlying principles
that can be used to guide and test our decisions. It acknowledges that
the specifics can look very different in two families acting by the
same principles. It demands that individuals be honest about their
motivations. It asks for mindfulness.
I just thought that a lot of cleaning can be simplified, when read the first
post on this thread, and reading that list gave me some ideas. For instance
I am seriously thinking of serving most our meals off disposable plates or
with napkins. I hate chasing dishes all over the house. I want the kids to
enjoy food and to be well nourished and have autonomy. People will blanch
I am sure, but we try to have a low carbon footprint, and for my family just
being able to put paper plates in a green bin to be composted will work so
much better than having dirty plates everywhere. When I read Su's list I
realized that paper plates would meet my kids autonomy, have peace in our
family and simplify chores, somewhat!
My nine year old son learned to make meringues this weekend. He had been
wanting to do this for a long time, too. At least a month or so. I was
doubtful as I had never done it before, so I wouldn't be able to *offer* my
experience. I caught myself trying to talk him into baking another treat,
like peanut butter cookies or a fruit pie.
Undaunted, Martin hunted an easy recipe on the Net. He wrote down the
ingredients: sugar, cream of tarter, egg whites and vanilla. He took his
dad shopping for them. He asked me if I could help him. So I was in the
kitchen on standby, ignoring my doubts. Before I knew it he was beating a
white mixture in a bowl and was dropping it from a spoon on to a cookie
sheet, and baking them.
I expected it to be hard, and worried he would be disappointed that I
thought about dissuading him. I was so surprised he succeeded. Yes, I know
how that reads, but I am being honest! I have learned to overcome the urge
to stop my kids from doing their own thing but am always so surprised it
works. My parents were constantly talking me out of projects, or throwing
obstacles at me, and then pointing out how I should have listened when
whatever I was attempting failed. I still have a fear of failure that I am
trying to overcome.
I noticed he cleaned up as he went, rinsing things. The next day all his
"tools" were ready for another batch. Again, I worry about telling this
story on other lists because I am going to hear that my family is eating too
much sugar daily and I am celebrating this as Martin's baking project. I
was able to just tell him how pretty they looked, and how I appreciate him
for making them. No condescension about how he did it all by himself or
whatever. He was really proud and happy. I was really happy for him, and
excited we were able to work together.
Usually when we bake cookies, pie or cake I end up cleaning up. This is fine
with me, but it was interesting to watch him clean. I didn't comment on it,
as I didn't want to turn into The Fun-Killer/ Joy stopper. My SIL coined
these terms to describe adults who see a child enjoying an activity who
swoop in and turn it into a quiz. or lavish praise on it which takes the fun
out of it with the hopes that they are "positively reinforcing" the event.
IE a kid calculating sales tax, or figuring out how to spend his allowance
and suddenly an adult turns it into a math quiz. How many widgets could you
buy if you had $200 or some similar question!
Marina
--
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That is the fun thing about this list. There aren't too many places I can
take my specific experiences and take them to far out conclusions and get
interesting feedback.
Okay, it is true the toys don't need anything. But to be safe for human
"consumption" I need certain conditions to be met for the toys and to enjoy
the toys the kids need certain conditions to be met.
My kids also like pokemon. I know way too much for an adult about
"evolving" and fighting and eggs and Ash and "training". I don't mean my
kids are totally people oriented. We have Yu gi oh, pokemon cards, and a
recent acquisition I haven't learned anything about yet :)
Su wrote:
Which choice invests a parent's trust in the child?
Which choice increases the child's autonomy?
Which choice reduces conflict and improves relationships within the
family?
Which choice respects the child's personal and bodily integrity?
Which choice honors the needs of all members of the family rather than
automatically elevating one person's needs over another's?
The thing about discernment is that it acknowledges that these
questions can be complex and that there is not one answer for
everybody, while at the same time pointing to underlying principles
that can be used to guide and test our decisions. It acknowledges that
the specifics can look very different in two families acting by the
same principles. It demands that individuals be honest about their
motivations. It asks for mindfulness.
I just thought that a lot of cleaning can be simplified, when read the first
post on this thread, and reading that list gave me some ideas. For instance
I am seriously thinking of serving most our meals off disposable plates or
with napkins. I hate chasing dishes all over the house. I want the kids to
enjoy food and to be well nourished and have autonomy. People will blanch
I am sure, but we try to have a low carbon footprint, and for my family just
being able to put paper plates in a green bin to be composted will work so
much better than having dirty plates everywhere. When I read Su's list I
realized that paper plates would meet my kids autonomy, have peace in our
family and simplify chores, somewhat!
>>>Partners rather than adversaries.Sandra I totally loves this sentiment and Su's list!
My nine year old son learned to make meringues this weekend. He had been
wanting to do this for a long time, too. At least a month or so. I was
doubtful as I had never done it before, so I wouldn't be able to *offer* my
experience. I caught myself trying to talk him into baking another treat,
like peanut butter cookies or a fruit pie.
Undaunted, Martin hunted an easy recipe on the Net. He wrote down the
ingredients: sugar, cream of tarter, egg whites and vanilla. He took his
dad shopping for them. He asked me if I could help him. So I was in the
kitchen on standby, ignoring my doubts. Before I knew it he was beating a
white mixture in a bowl and was dropping it from a spoon on to a cookie
sheet, and baking them.
I expected it to be hard, and worried he would be disappointed that I
thought about dissuading him. I was so surprised he succeeded. Yes, I know
how that reads, but I am being honest! I have learned to overcome the urge
to stop my kids from doing their own thing but am always so surprised it
works. My parents were constantly talking me out of projects, or throwing
obstacles at me, and then pointing out how I should have listened when
whatever I was attempting failed. I still have a fear of failure that I am
trying to overcome.
I noticed he cleaned up as he went, rinsing things. The next day all his
"tools" were ready for another batch. Again, I worry about telling this
story on other lists because I am going to hear that my family is eating too
much sugar daily and I am celebrating this as Martin's baking project. I
was able to just tell him how pretty they looked, and how I appreciate him
for making them. No condescension about how he did it all by himself or
whatever. He was really proud and happy. I was really happy for him, and
excited we were able to work together.
Usually when we bake cookies, pie or cake I end up cleaning up. This is fine
with me, but it was interesting to watch him clean. I didn't comment on it,
as I didn't want to turn into The Fun-Killer/ Joy stopper. My SIL coined
these terms to describe adults who see a child enjoying an activity who
swoop in and turn it into a quiz. or lavish praise on it which takes the fun
out of it with the hopes that they are "positively reinforcing" the event.
IE a kid calculating sales tax, or figuring out how to spend his allowance
and suddenly an adult turns it into a math quiz. How many widgets could you
buy if you had $200 or some similar question!
Marina
--
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Her kids are severely limited on what they can eat. She has even put her
oldest on a diet when he was 5-6. He is a husky boy.
The parents are overweight ( heck I am too). They are very afraid their kids
are going to become obese
My niece is very skinny, not unhealthy, just thin. When she was younger a
pediatrician had my SIL in there with a food journal monthly. The doc
actually yelled at my SIL because the little girl was eating too many
veggies. Yup. The mom kept offering high-fat dips, but apart from celery
with peanut butter or cream cheese my niece mowed down on fruits and
veggies.
My SIL had a funny birthday party kid story. This gave her some perspective
and might shed some light on her unschooling. Her daughter didn't have her
food regulated. In fact her parents were encouraged by doctors to give
their child *all you can eat ice cream*! So, she had lots of choices. At a
birthday party all the parents were ordering their offspring to just have
one cookie, and then eat some fruit or some veggies. My sil found the other
parents staring when she said: Leah you are eating all the fruit, and too
many carrot sticks, so there won't be any for the other kids. Please eat a
piece of cake now. The other kids not used to all that candy, cake and
cookies had to be ordered to enjoy the fruit. My neice who was always
encouraged to eat high fat food was in Heaven with all you can eat fruits
and veggies. After that my SIL changed doctors and made it clear Leah chose
her own foods. She is a strong healthy kid, just small.
--
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
oldest on a diet when he was 5-6. He is a husky boy.
The parents are overweight ( heck I am too). They are very afraid their kids
are going to become obese
My niece is very skinny, not unhealthy, just thin. When she was younger a
pediatrician had my SIL in there with a food journal monthly. The doc
actually yelled at my SIL because the little girl was eating too many
veggies. Yup. The mom kept offering high-fat dips, but apart from celery
with peanut butter or cream cheese my niece mowed down on fruits and
veggies.
My SIL had a funny birthday party kid story. This gave her some perspective
and might shed some light on her unschooling. Her daughter didn't have her
food regulated. In fact her parents were encouraged by doctors to give
their child *all you can eat ice cream*! So, she had lots of choices. At a
birthday party all the parents were ordering their offspring to just have
one cookie, and then eat some fruit or some veggies. My sil found the other
parents staring when she said: Leah you are eating all the fruit, and too
many carrot sticks, so there won't be any for the other kids. Please eat a
piece of cake now. The other kids not used to all that candy, cake and
cookies had to be ordered to enjoy the fruit. My neice who was always
encouraged to eat high fat food was in Heaven with all you can eat fruits
and veggies. After that my SIL changed doctors and made it clear Leah chose
her own foods. She is a strong healthy kid, just small.
--
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]