Sandra Dodd

Without the least intention of apologizing for using "good" and "bad,"
I want to remind people of the purpose of this list. Those who are
sure of it already, remind yourself. Those who aren't sure, read here:
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
There are some new list members, which is a constant, and which is
good. There are some new list members posting here without regard to
the fact that it's an unschooling discussion list. That is not good.
Long posts about school are not good for the list.
Repetitive posts explaining posts that were repetitive in the first
place are not good for the list.
ALL POSTS should be questions or stories about unschooling or
responses based on unschooling principles.
When I ask for people to give enough information that answers are
useful, that's not the same as asking for all the details in the
world. Leaving something out like that the child is still in school,
or 12 and adopted, or the parents are in the process of separating---
BIG things like that---that can be a waste of the time of the people
who are offering advice.
These things are quoted from a post that was returned:
-=-It isn't fair for one person to be "Cinderella," and the others to
be the
stepsisters" who expect the "maid" to take care of their every whim.-=-

-=-By the time he's out on his own, these things will happen
automatically for
him.-=-
The first part isn't helpful, and the second part isn't true. These
topics have been discussed for many years here, and there are "good
parts" collected on Joyce's site and mine both. Anyone who's feeling
like Cinderella could use reading this
http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
and following the links
and this:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/kidstohelpwithchores.html

Sandra

jonaia

What kind of democratic list can one have, if one censors everything.
Just because it's not what you personally believe.

I have noticed, that you make a lot of referals to links that YOU created,
like you're the only opinion that matters, and you want people to believe
that you're the "expert" on the subject.

What I said about Cinderella, is true, a mom on the other list felt the same
way too.

And, He WILL be self sufficient. How can you predict that he won't be.

How can anyone speak freely on this list if you're going to personally
censor everything you don't agree with.

I'm surprised you didn't bash the lady with the 4 year old and say something
like, the other people did, you can't let him make choices, who cares about
pajamas, let him sleep wherever, don't give him milk in bed, it'll rot his
teeth, etc and so on

None of these replies would have been helpful to her.

So I'm going where the open minded, and non judgemental people are.

A lady said she was lurking on a list such as yours, and left because of the
slamming of people.

No one gets slammed on your list, except from you. You simply don't let
anyone interact with the people on the list, unless you personally agree
with what they're saying or asking. So you can refer them to your personal
web links.

You need to read about democracy.
-------Original Message-------

From: Sandra Dodd
Date: 5/21/2009 3:08:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] good advice and bad advice




Without the least intention of apologizing for using "good" and "bad,"
I want to remind people of the purpose of this list. Those who are
sure of it already, remind yourself. Those who aren't sure, read here:
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
There are some new list members, which is a constant, and which is
good. There are some new list members posting here without regard to
the fact that it's an unschooling discussion list. That is not good.
Long posts about school are not good for the list.
Repetitive posts explaining posts that were repetitive in the first
place are not good for the list.
ALL POSTS should be questions or stories about unschooling or
responses based on unschooling principles.
When I ask for people to give enough information that answers are
useful, that's not the same as asking for all the details in the
world. Leaving something out like that the child is still in school,
or 12 and adopted, or the parents are in the process of separating---
BIG things like that---that can be a waste of the time of the people
who are offering advice.
These things are quoted from a post that was returned:
-=-It isn't fair for one person to be "Cinderella," and the others to
be the
stepsisters" who expect the "maid" to take care of their every whim.-=-

-=-By the time he's out on his own, these things will happen
automatically for
him.-=-
The first part isn't helpful, and the second part isn't true. These
topics have been discussed for many years here, and there are "good
parts" collected on Joyce's site and mine both. Anyone who's feeling
like Cinderella could use reading this
http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
and following the links
and this:
http://joyfullyrejoycing
com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/kidstohelpwithchores.html

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

I let the response through because it was kind of awful. I think I'll
let the original post onto the list, too, in case anyone here is
wondering why a post would be returned.

-=-What kind of democratic list can one have, if one censors everything.
Just because it's not what you personally believe. -=-

I personally believe that advice that's not at ALL from an unschooling
point of view, from someone who's been on the list for less than a
week, is not in keeping with the purpose of the list.

And where did it say this was "a democratic list"? It's my list.


-=-I have noticed, that you make a lot of referals to links that YOU
created,
like you're the only opinion that matters, and you want people to
believe
that you're the "expert" on the subject.-=-

Anyone who's followed those links will know that there are very few
written just by me, and many written completely by people other than me.

The reason I keep the site, and Joyce keeps her unschooling site, is
that the same questions are asked over and over and OVER and over over
the years. Even though Joyce and I also do several hours of work
each week keeping lists available for people to continue to ponder and
analyze and discuss these same, same questions, we also collect the
best parts so people can find them without joining a list (and people
do find them) and so that people on the lists can read LOTS of good
advice and ideas about their current question, if it has come up before.

-=-What I said about Cinderella, is true, a mom on the other list felt
the same
way too.-=-

OH!~ A mom felt that way!? MILLIONS OF MOMS feel that way, and it's
not making them happy. It will not create the relationship with their
child that they need for unschooling to thrive.

-=-No one gets slammed on your list, except from you. You simply don't
let
anyone interact with the people on the list, unless you personally agree
with what they're saying or asking. So you can refer them to your
personal
web links.-=-

"Simply"? I "simply" don't let anyone interact!???

This list was created November 24, 2001. There are 45,421 messages in
the archives (there will be more by the time this one is posted).
How is that evidence that I don't let people communicate!?

The post I returned had some very harsh recommendations. I'll put it
on the list with a disclaimer, and without the name of the original
poster because if she's not ashamed now, she might be ashamed of it
someday. I had intended to spare her.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

While no-one likes their messages to be bounced (I've had a couple that
were, but for the very good reason that they were irrelevant to the wider
group), it seems disproportionate to release this much vitriol.


In a message dated 21/05/2009 23:26:16 GMT Standard Time,
jonaia@... writes:

What I said about Cinderella, is true, a mom on the other list felt the
same
way too.
It may be true for you and the other mom but I can't see how you can
generalize from this.



And, He WILL be self sufficient. How can you predict that he won't be.
In which case, how can you predict that he will be?

How can anyone speak freely on this list if you're going to personally
censor everything you don't agree with.

I'm surprised you didn't bash the lady with the 4 year old and say
something
like, the other people did, you can't let him make choices, who cares about
pajamas, let him sleep wherever, don't give him milk in bed, it'll rot his
teeth, etc and so on

None of these replies would have been helpful to her.
This is self-contradictory: if censorship is happening, how could such a
varied range of suggested solutions to this lady's problem get through? I'd
have thought that democracy is about individuals gathering ideas from as
many available sources as possible and 'voting' for the option that makes
most sense to them.

I'm new to the list too and have already said it's sometimes not easy to
have your firmly held opinions challenged, but surely we sign up to lists
like this to seek advice from those with great experience in their field? I
guess the important thing is then to decide whether you're in a different
field entirely.

Jude


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Below is my note returning the post quoted below. I'm letting it
through to the list. This has taken half an hour of my day,
corresponding with someone who hadn't been on the list for a week.
What I didn't include below was the 1285 words of appended posts (any
macintosh will count words with one click, so don't think I counted
them myself <g>).

I didn't even mention how dangerous, abusive and possibly illegal the
recommendation to lock a child in his room with the light off is.

From here down is the cover, and then the post I had returned, and a
disclaimer.

Sandra

------------------------------------------------------------


There are several reasons this is returned. You've appended two long
posts. Please don't do that. If you must quote from another post,
post only enough to help readers remember the part to which you're
responding.

-=- My son has a behavioral disorder, I won't go into
it because when I did, the post wasn't let through.-=-

Complaining about the list isn't the purpose of the list. You can
read more about the list, if you wish to, here:
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning

And you've only been on a few days. Responses should be from an
unschooling point of view. The list is about unschooling principles
and natural learning, not about traditional solutions or locking
children in their rooms.

It's find for you to read without posting, until you understand more
about unschooling. If unschooling won't work at your house, that's
fine. Posts with mainstream advice aren't the purpose of the
AlwaysLearning list.

Sandra

From: [now anonymous]
Date: May 21, 2009 10:30:30 AM MDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: input regarding sleep issues with 4
year old


I note on this sleep issues subject.

My son was never able to be put to bed in the traditional fashion,
I.e. Do
the nightly routine, of pajamas, teeth, stories and be tucked in, and
go to
sleep.

That has never happened. My son has a behavioral disorder, I won't go
into
it because when I did, the post wasn't let through.

Anyway, he's in constant motion.

Even today, at almost 9 years old, he won't seek his bed until his his
body
controls his will, by basically shutting down on it's own.

I gave up "putting him to bed" years ago, because it was impossible.

I do however, mandate a family quiet time at a certain hour, generally
when
it gets dark outside.

My son was an explosive child too, at the age of yours.

I basically cleared out his room of all stuff that could be dangerous
to him
dressers, hard plastic toys, lamps and any other thing with a cord, and
covered all the outlets with locking covers.

So he had a few softcover books in there, a huge pile of stuffed
animals and
a mattress on the floor. It was not on a bedframe, because he liked
to jump
on his bed, and could get seriuosly hurt falling off a raised one.

All the stuff was taken out of his room, to make a safe environment
for an
extreme child.

Like your son, he would throw stuff when he was mad. If there were no
hard
items in his room, than no one would get hurt/nothing would get
broken, and
he wouldn't get the satisfaction of hearing something crash.

Anyway, his clothes and clothes dresser were taken out, so he couldn't
make
a mess with them by strewing them about when he got angry.

And most importantly, a lock on his door. He couldn't be made to take a
time out in a corner or chair like on nanny 911, so his near empty
room was
his time out area, and still is.

Anyway, back to the sleep issue, I would just make him understand that
it
was quiet time, and give him choices, he could stay up and do
whatever, read
books, play a game, etc. But in one hour he'll have to go to his own
room
for the night. If he made a fuss about going, then he'd have to go
there
immediately.

In the beginning, like on Nanny 911, when the parents give ultimatums,
things are hard on the kids, I would put him in there, and he'd kick the
door and scream. Then I'd say, "if you want to do that, then I'll
have to
take the light bulb out."

Like most kids, he doesn't like being in the dark, but it was a sort of
dicipline that could be used, that wouldn't hurt him, and he chose it,
by
not choosing to accept that it was quiet time.

After a few light bulbs being taken out (these were the over head celing
bulbs, so there was no danger of fingers in open sockets) for a
couple of
minutes, he knew I was serious about what I said. If he didn't like
sitting
in the dark, he would be quiet in the evenings, after it was dark
outside.

He would also have to stay in his room during quiet time. The door could
stay unlocked, if he stayed in his room quietly. If he couldn't stay
in his
room himself, then it would be locked. This was also dictated by his
actions


Now during quiet time in his room, he can do any manner of things kids
do in
their rooms, his choices of this were limited by only being able to play
with the non hard objects in his room, so his choices were play with the
stuffed animals or read books. He's an avid reader and loves inventing
Animal Town scenerios for his stuffed animals.

I even would offer a new book he hadn't read, for complying with the
quiet
time for several days. He LOVES new books, so this was a good incentive.

Then, while in his room, as the night went on, he would just fall
asleep at
some point. I would go in there before I went to bed, and put him in
his bed
if he wasn't in it, and cover and tuck him in.

He would then have to be locked in for his own safety at night. He was
prone to getting into things, and doing things if left unsupervised
( if he
awakened, while I was asleep).

I also forgot to say, that his room is the the master bedroom, because
it
has a bathroom off the bedroom, so he can go any time he needs to,
with out
disrupting any one else in the house hold. This bathroom is also empty
of
stuff. So I don't find the walls painted with toothpaste in the morning.

I would simply try the "choices" method of doing things, it is the only
disipline" that works with my son.

Just state what you'd like him to do, then another slightly
unpleasent/unliked choice as the other choice, as I did, with the door
being
locked or not, the lightbulb coming out, or not, and the go to your
room, or
not.

Now, you could even give the choice of: "you CAN choose a book, and
put your
pajamas on now, OR you CAN go to your room right now," which would you
like?

Most would choose the book, pajamas and the accompanying attention,
vs. No
attention by themselves.

If you make just about everything (except education style), these
types of
choices, soon when he chooses the obvious choice repeatedly, a routine
will
develop, and the problem will vanish.

Incentives and rewards help reinforce good choices as well. A reward
could
simply be a hug and a kiss, words of praise, that sort of thing, vs.
Being
set apart" alone with no interaction/time out. Most kids would not
choose
that choice.

I do this with my son with "family culture" type stuff, such as putting
dishes in the sink, dirty clothes in the hamper,etc.

It's a way for him to realize that every person in a family, has the
same
responsibilities when it comes to general home/self maintenance.

It isn't fair for one person to be "Cinderella," and the others to be
the
stepsisters" who expect the "maid" to take care of their every whim.

By the time he's out on his own, these things will happen
automatically for
him.

Good luck. :)

================================


(The post above is NOT unschooling advice; please disregard it for the
purposes of learning to unschool.)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Wow. This advice on an unschooling list id appalling.
It makes me feel really sad for that poor child.
Withdrawal of love
behavior modification, punishments and rewards- like training  animals
It makes my skin crawl.
That little boy is a person too- not a dog!
For anyone knew who has not listen to Sandra talk about Peaceful Parenting
please listen to it on a link in this page:


http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< You need to read about democracy. >>>>

This list exists to discuss unschooling, not democracy.

No one ever claimed this list was to be democratic. One definition of a
democracy is that every fool's vote is equal to that of a sensible person.

Cinderella's step mother wasn't unschooling, or aspiring to do so, at least
not in any of the versions I have read of the story.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Robyn L. Coburn

Mess might be a message.

Initially I thought the description of a nice soft room, filled with
soothing beloved things, sounded rather beautiful. Until it all turned into
a nightmare with the punishments, rewards, threats and removals. It seems
wrong to turn what should be safe haven into the punishment room.

I can't imagine the cruelty and horror and fear being felt by a child who is
afraid of the dark being threatened with removal of the only light. I still
get up in the middle of the night to stand by the door of the bathroom with
my daughter who is 9.5 and just a little nervous at times. The response from
this callous mother to her son's misery is to dish out more punishment and
call it "his choice". This with the acknowledgment that he has a difficult
temperament.

If this possibly less verbal child has no outlet, not even drawing with
toothpaste, for his frustrations, my fear would be that he will start
turning on himself physically - maybe pulling out his hair, extreme chewing
on his fingers, toes or cheeks, throwing himself into walls, hiding a blade
and cutting himself. What's next? A straight jacket?

If the problems are escalating in response to your parenting stategies,
perhaps it is the parenting that is at fault.

PS: Nanny 911 and those similar shows are horseshit.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-No one ever claimed this list was to be democratic. One definition
of a
democracy is that every fool's vote is equal to that of a sensible
person.-=-

In one of those friendlier places recently someone wrote:

Everyone's input is valuable.

and

We all have different needs, and all of them are valid.


I still have them because I scooped them up whole and added them to my
support page.

Just because they're "friendly" and "supportive" doesn't mean they're
"valuable" or "valid."

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<< I still have them because I scooped them up whole and added them to my
> support page.>>>

How about "You're a much better mom than that other woman" ?

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

[email protected]

>>>> If you make just about everything (except education style), these
types of choices, soon when he chooses the obvious choice repeatedly, a
routine
will develop, and the problem will vanish. <<<<

>>>> Incentives and rewards help reinforce good choices as well. A
reward
could simply be a hug and a kiss, words of praise, that sort of thing,
vs.
Being set apart" alone with no interaction/time out. Most kids would
not
choose that choice. <<<<


The dangerous advice seems to be that parents should construct a real
live Skinner box in their very own home and then place uncooperative
family members in it.

I hope it's sheer fiction and that the unimaginative author of it isn't
really a parent.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

I meant to share this, which I had sent by e-mail in response to a
more private attack than appeared here:

-=-I give up. I'm going to the much friendlier other list. My
posts are informative, and don't go on about pointless topics like
school bells.=-

School recovery is not at all pointless to unschoolers. Had you
followed the post that went to, it had to do with a story of my kids
first hearing school bells when they were 12 and 14.

There are friendlier lists, but there aren't more useful lists, if you
want to learn about unschooling.

There are many lists with advice like this:
http://sandradodd.com/support

Sandra

=============================================

It's not that I'm not sympathetic to a mom whose child is difficult.
I do appreciate my own children. I'm grateful that they were verbal
at an early age and not destructive.

This isn't the first time a mom has come and said her child was
explosive and uncontrollable and violent, and then at the slightest
hindrance here the mom went explosive and verbally abusive and
irrational. There can be a connection. There can't NOT be a
connection. Even without genetics, a mother who is harsh and mean is
likely to have a harsh and mean reaction.

I've just spent Holly's entire life (as she was born when Kirby was
five, during our first year of unschooling) helping people unschool,
seeing people fail (and often seeing why) and seeing people succeed
(and often getting to work with them for years as they also helped
others, after they got it). I DO know more about unschooling than
someone who joined the list last week and thinks locking a child in
his room is good, right or safe. What if there's a fire? What if
he's throwing up, or needs the bathroom? But that's not about
unschooling at all.

Joyce knows a lot about unschooling. Robyn does. LOTS of the
contributors to this list, and the quieter readers, know a lot about
unschooling. That's pretty wonderful, for people who come here for
help.

Will unschooling work for everyone? No.
Will it work better for those who will consider changes than for those
who are happy with mainstream "solutions"? Absolutely.

http://sandradodd.com/confidence
and lest anyone think I'm sending people to something I wrote, that
page has Joyce, me, Jenny Cyphers and Schuyler Waynforth.

Sandra

DJ250

Wow, too! I think the original poster would feel relieved (which is what I felt when I realized I was hurting my child by ignoring her when she tantrumed and taking things away from her and punishing her!) knowing it's GOOD to respond to a child who is angry just as she would respond to a friend who was angry or hurt. We don't ignore those friends but try to comfort them! :)

~Melissa, in MD

----- Original Message -----
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] good advice and bad advice





Wow. This advice on an unschooling list id appalling.
It makes me feel really sad for that poor child.
Withdrawal of love
behavior modification, punishments and rewards- like training animals
It makes my skin crawl.
That little boy is a person too- not a dog!
For anyone knew who has not listen to Sandra talk about Peaceful Parenting
please listen to it on a link in this page:

http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.36/2127 - Release Date: 05/21/09 17:51:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maria

I have learned more in the last several weeks that I've been actively participating and become a MUCH better mother by both posting and reading the discussions on this list (still a huge work in progress, though!). Yes, there are a LOT of uncomfortable questions and times where I know that the feedback isn't going to be what I want to hear. But I also know that it's honest feedback, and I can trust my own self to determine whether it's crap or not. No one is making me accept anything as gospel. I certainly don't feel that way.

This is also not the only source of information on unschooling that I look to, nevermind the fact that both Joyce and Sandra's links and sites have links to other blogs (which in turn have other links, and so on), as well as to books and articles. I came here to further understand what I was reading in John Holt's and A.S. Neill's books. Right now I'm reading Rue Kream's book, and it was what inspired me to pursue changing from "bedtime routine" to "evening routine."

This list has made it possible for me to:

-recognize and heal my own past child hurts
-think more critically about the stories I tell myself
-put my ego aside (most of the time, not always)
-remain true to my vow to never be like my abusive parents
-be creative with my child
-find joy spending time with my child
-make sure that there's one less child who's abused and disrespected in the world
-not feel like a shitty mother when I look at myself in the mirror
-get some free therapy ;)

I like how different people share their perspective, along with the hard questions and sometimes outright criticisms in certain discussions. It connects me to others who have or are working through this process. I feel less alone.

And that's that. I need bed, since tomorrow is going to be a full day of activity at the conference.

Maria

p.s. they did "bash" me about not giving Seth choices, and the whole pajamas bit (although they left out the milk thing). It gave me a lot to think about while driving in traffic today. No hard feelings.


--- In [email protected], "jonaia" <jonaia@...> wrote:
>
> What kind of democratic list can one have, if one censors everything.
> Just because it's not what you personally believe.
>
> I have noticed, that you make a lot of referals to links that YOU created,
> like you're the only opinion that matters, and you want people to believe
> that you're the "expert" on the subject.
>
> What I said about Cinderella, is true, a mom on the other list felt the same
> way too.
>
> And, He WILL be self sufficient. How can you predict that he won't be.
>
> How can anyone speak freely on this list if you're going to personally
> censor everything you don't agree with.
>
> I'm surprised you didn't bash the lady with the 4 year old and say something
> like, the other people did, you can't let him make choices, who cares about
> pajamas, let him sleep wherever, don't give him milk in bed, it'll rot his
> teeth, etc and so on
>
> None of these replies would have been helpful to her.
>
> So I'm going where the open minded, and non judgemental people are.
>
> A lady said she was lurking on a list such as yours, and left because of the
> slamming of people.
>
> No one gets slammed on your list, except from you. You simply don't let
> anyone interact with the people on the list, unless you personally agree
> with what they're saying or asking. So you can refer them to your personal
> web links.
>
> You need to read about democracy.
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Sandra Dodd
> Date: 5/21/2009 3:08:12 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] good advice and bad advice
>
>
>
>
> Without the least intention of apologizing for using "good" and "bad,"
> I want to remind people of the purpose of this list. Those who are
> sure of it already, remind yourself. Those who aren't sure, read here:
> http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
> There are some new list members, which is a constant, and which is
> good. There are some new list members posting here without regard to
> the fact that it's an unschooling discussion list. That is not good.
> Long posts about school are not good for the list.
> Repetitive posts explaining posts that were repetitive in the first
> place are not good for the list.
> ALL POSTS should be questions or stories about unschooling or
> responses based on unschooling principles.
> When I ask for people to give enough information that answers are
> useful, that's not the same as asking for all the details in the
> world. Leaving something out like that the child is still in school,
> or 12 and adopted, or the parents are in the process of separating---
> BIG things like that---that can be a waste of the time of the people
> who are offering advice.
> These things are quoted from a post that was returned:
> -=-It isn't fair for one person to be "Cinderella," and the others to
> be the
> stepsisters" who expect the "maid" to take care of their every whim.-=-
>
> -=-By the time he's out on his own, these things will happen
> automatically for
> him.-=-
> The first part isn't helpful, and the second part isn't true. These
> topics have been discussed for many years here, and there are "good
> parts" collected on Joyce's site and mine both. Anyone who's feeling
> like Cinderella could use reading this
> http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
> and following the links
> and this:
> http://joyfullyrejoycing
> com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/kidstohelpwithchores.html
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

This is one cool list, Maria!

*********
This list has made it possible for me to:

-recognize and heal my own past child hurts
-think more critically about the stories I tell myself
-put my ego aside (most of the time, not always)
-remain true to my vow to never be like my abusive parents
-be creative with my child
-find joy spending time with my child
-make sure that there's one less child who's abused and disrespected
in the world
-not feel like a shitty mother when I look at myself in the mirror
-get some free therapy ;)

*********

You wrote -=-p.s. they did "bash" me about not giving Seth choices,
and the whole pajamas bit (although they left out the milk thing). It
gave me a lot to think about while driving in traffic today. No hard
feelings.-=-

in response to this which had been to me (I think... it's kind of a
blur <g>):

-=-> I'm surprised you didn't bash the lady with the 4 year old and
say something
> like, the other people did, you can't let him make choices, who
cares about
> pajamas, let him sleep wherever, don't give him milk in bed, it'll
rot his
> teeth, etc and so on -=-

I think I DID say who cares about his pajamas and let him sleep
wherever. But once someone's on an irrational rant, it just kinda
has to play itself out to its irrational end. Maybe she'll think
about some of these things when she's exhausted from the fury and come
back and apologize, or maybe she'll fortify herself with the idea that
she's right and we're crazy, which will fuel her up for her next
explosive incident. I don't want to lock her in her room, but I
might lock her out of this one.

To call it "bashing" to say "try this," or "don't worry about that,"
when one is being frighteningly punitive and distant from a child is
fascinating like a model trainwreck in a psychology class.

A few similar things have happened over the years. One was a mom
defending spanking or something that was making her child cry. When
I said "HEY, but..." she wrote back that my words had made her cry.
OH DUH! And I was supposed to feel guilty? A grown woman's crying
about guilt she SHOULD feel? But complaining about it... in public....

And another mom had described the way she was treating her daughter
(not good) and then said the daughter was depressed (and wanted our
help) and I wrote that I'd be depressed too. Shitstorm with
fireworks. It was to be okay for her to tell a thousand strangers
she had a depressed teen, and to outline some of the causes, but for
me to say "Wow" was somehow mean and abusive.

When one person finds ways to find joy spending time with her child,
all that emotional woundedness is lessened in the world on average,
and the few moms who just wanted us to say "Good job!" about whatever
nonsense they were revealing don't prevent other moms from seeing that
array of ideas and going with the soft and sweet ones.

Unschooling won't work for everyone. Some kids' problems are worse
than unschooling can undo. The existence of a family that can't get
unschooling doesn't negate the value of unschooling for those families
whose circumstances are different and who can and will get it.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Melissa ,
First:
Did you follow the tread?
This was advice this person wanted to give to another on the list.
Sandra did not let the post trough and she got really mad at her.
Second:
Did you notice a link I posted and a suggestion to listen so people could understand that
treating your child ( or anyone for that matter) is wrong and what it could look like
in a peaceful family?
Third:
This person is not my friend and was not looking for help.
Do you want me to pat her in the back or tell her that what she is doing is wrong, very, very abusive?!
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DJ250

No, I don't want you to validate what she is doing at all!!! :) I just remember being taught by various books, classes (Elem Ed degree and Early Childhood Cert.), etc that punishment, time-out, and Skinner-type crap was the ONLY way to ensure kids will listen to you and become "good". I believed it all! But since coming to unschooling and reading more and more it helped when people pointed out an alternative. So, yeah, I see how awful she's treating her kid but she's convinced it's right! We can tell her it's wrong, definitely, but HELP her to see the light!!

~Melissa, in MD

----- Original Message -----
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] good advice and bad advice





Melissa ,
First:
Did you follow the tread?
This was advice this person wanted to give to another on the list.
Sandra did not let the post trough and she got really mad at her.
Second:
Did you notice a link I posted and a suggestion to listen so people could understand that
treating your child ( or anyone for that matter) is wrong and what it could look like
in a peaceful family?
Third:
This person is not my friend and was not looking for help.
Do you want me to pat her in the back or tell her that what she is doing is wrong, very, very abusive?!

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.36/2128 - Release Date: 05/22/09 06:03:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-So, yeah, I see how awful she's treating her kid but she's
convinced it's right! We can tell her it's wrong, definitely, but HELP
her to see the light!!-=-

The existence of this list is help.
The links people bring to the list is help.

The side e-mail from Joyce, and from me, was help.

When someone is flailing and wailing and rejecting help, it's okay for
us to let them recover elsewhere as they will.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-So, yeah, I see how awful she's treating her kid but she's
convinced it's right! We can tell her it's wrong, definitely, but HELP
her to see the light!!-=-

The existence of this list is help.
The links people bring to the list is help.

The side e-mail from Joyce, and from me, was help.

When someone is flailing and wailing and rejecting help, it's okay for
us to let them recover elsewhere as they will.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>>> I have learned more in the last several weeks that I've been
actively participating and become a MUCH better mother by both posting
and reading the discussions on this list (still a huge work in
progress, though!). <<<<

I've become a better person and a happier one.

It's much easier in one sense to ride along the surface, not
considering what I'm doing. Yet even easier and much less complicated
is to make changes that come from happiness and are totally
non-punitive. Punishment is a LOT of hard work, hard on people, hard
on relationships, hard on survival rates and safety, high on risk and
death and chaos. Considering what I'm doing is guilt-free living, and
thus more sustainable than doing and justifying things I don't fully
understand the effect of.

After a while, changing what I do and think becomes natural, less to
think about and more to act on. Certain things I used to feel dubious
about are now no-brainers: treat children (and others) kindly and
wisely, and what I get back will more likely reflect the same toward
me. And actually it has a ricocheting effect. Even people who haven't
seen me much lately tell me I'm different. They notice.

I love unschooling principles for clarifying what I truly believe about
living and my own faith really. Shedding whatever is causing me grief
and guilt just works better than finding who's to blame and juggling my
thoughts in a gadzillion conflicting ways. I don't spend so much time
imagining the kind of mother I'd be without unschooling principles. I
used to feel much more frightened that I wouldn't be able to get
unschooling. When I do reflect on the horror of where I was headed
it's wonderful that my own real life is lovely by contrast. Some
things change slowly and it's hard to be patient. Yet I'm growing more
aware everyday and I keep changing.

All this is easier on my heart *and* my mind. At first, new thoughts
were disturbing and so difficult. Coming to unschooling lists, as I
have been for several years now, and entertaining new thoughts has
gotten easier. I've been able to take them in stride and flow with
them until experience reveals the truth of my actions and brings good
to the surface right where my family can enjoy it. Good is no longer
relegated to the future or put in someone else's hands. I don't feel
helpless or hopeless like I used to.

The best part of all is the freedom! The freedom is in realizing the
many many options I couldn't see once upon a time, long ago and far
away.

There were other great beginnings. Yet in so many ways, unschooling
was the first day I started living.

Paraphrase of Neverending Story quote: And the more wishes you make,
the more magnificent [your life] will become.

~Katherine

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<We can tell her it's wrong, definitely, but HELP her to see the
light!!>>>>

The light is already there. It's been pointed out to her more than once in
the form of links. She knows it but won't look at it. She prefers her dark
glasses that have the words "tough love" and "for his own good" and "martyr
to my son" scribbled on the frames.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Lyla Wolfenstein

Unschooling won't work for everyone. Some kids' problems are worse
than unschooling can undo. The existence of a family that can't get
unschooling doesn't negate the value of unschooling for those families
whose circumstances are different and who can and will get it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

but for the kids whose problems are worse than what unschooling can undo, school is most certainly not the answer! even if unschooling doesn't undo all the problems - and some of them might have been there regardless - it's a hell of a lot better - *especially* for kids with "problems" than school.....

Lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/22/2009 10:08 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
> but for the kids whose problems are worse than what unschooling can undo, school is most certainly not the answer! even if unschooling doesn't undo all the problems - and some of them might have been there regardless - it's a hell of a lot better -*especially* for kids with "problems" than school.....
>

I'm not sure why you say school is most certainly not the answer. It can
be the best thing in life for some kids from very abusive home lives and
neighborhoods. Maybe you meant other kinds of problems - the alphabet
soup of labels types of problems?

But, anyway, the extremely neglectful and abusive are not parents who
are coming here to learn about unschooling.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm not sure why you say school is most certainly not the answer.
It can
be the best thing in life for some kids from very abusive home lives and
neighborhoods.-=-

I agree.

Unschooling isn't for everyone. Good school is better than botched
unschooling, seems to me.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon D. Burton

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-So, yeah, I see how awful she's treating her kid but she's
> convinced it's right! We can tell her it's wrong, definitely, but HELP
> her to see the light!!-=-
>
> The existence of this list is help.
> The links people bring to the list is help.
>
> The side e-mail from Joyce, and from me, was help.
>
> When someone is flailing and wailing and rejecting help, it's okay for
> us to let them recover elsewhere as they will.
>
> Sandra
>


This thread reminds me very much of my mother. it has taken me almost my whole lifetime to understand that her wailings, and flailings, and rejections of help were not *my* failings, and that we were locked into a codependent relationship where my every action, word, or misstep became disrespect, and all should be about supporting her *fragile* ego.

An ego like that is not fragile.....diseased, possibly - but strong and definitely in charge of getting its needs met.

Relationships like the one she and I had are the only type my mother has. They are not the only type I have - and not a type I want to have - it is thoroughly exhausting to be cast in the role of protecting someone else's "fragile self-esteem".

Self esteem comes from self, from examining one's life and principles, and making efforts to live in a way that supports those. It comes from being open to criticism and honest with oneself about the value of what is offered - here, at least - honestly and as a gift.

I've noticed that, on this list, there are people who become inflamed at the first suggestion that everything that they type won't be treated as gospel. Then there are those who, when encountering the inevitable stream of help that is offered when they don't quite seem to be getting it (maria and food, me and chess, lots of others), kind of get quiet and collect their thoughts. Maybe, as I do, they keep them in the back of their minds through the day, mulling, maybe even trying to defend...but to themselves, until they come to the point of being able to begin to see....and then, and only then, they are back with tales of progress, perhaps - but almost certainly more questions...

And in the second process, it seems things are delved into deeply, and learning is available to many, because the original poster did not simply slam closed all doors to understanding.

One process seems to simply waste time, where the other provides valuable tools to many....

IMHO, of course!
Shan


> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----

From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subj: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: good advice and bad advice
Date: Fri May 22, 2009 12:09 pm
Size: 2K
To: [email protected]





On 5/22/2009 10:08 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
> but for the kids whose problems are worse than what unschooling can undo, school is most certainly not the answer! even if unschooling doesn't undo all the problems - and some of them might have been there regardless - it's a hell of a lot better -*especially* for kids with "problems" than school.....
>

I'm not sure why you say school is most certainly not the answer. It can
be the best thing in life for some kids from very abusive home lives and
neighborhoods. Maybe you meant other kinds of problems - the alphabet
soup of labels types of problems?
//////////////////////

yes, sorry for not being more clear, that is what I meant.

Jenny C

> My son was never able to >

> That has never happened. My son has a behavioral disorder, >

> Anyway, he's in constant motion.

>
he won't seek his bed until his his

> I gave up ...it was impossible.

>
mandate a family quiet time >

> My son was an explosive child

> I basically cleared out his room

> All the stuff was taken out of his room,...

> extreme child.

>
If there were no
> hard
> items in his room, than no one would get hurt/nothing would get
> broken, and
> he wouldn't get the satisfaction of hearing something crash.


so he couldn't
> make
> a mess

a lock on his door.

He couldn't be made to take


I would just make him understand

If he made a fuss about going, then he'd have to go
> there


>
I would put him in there, and he'd kick the
> door and scream.

I'll
> have to
> take

he doesn't like being in the dark, but it was a sort of
> dicipline that could be used, ... he knew I was serious

> He would also have to stay

> He would then have to be locked

> If you make

*********************

I pulled all these things out because I wanted to point out the extreme in thinking. There is a lot of force and "make" and "have to" and "always" and "never" kind of thinking here.

This does NOT help unschooling. If there is one thing that unschooling requires without a doubt, it would be flexibility. You can't be flexible within the paradigm of force and compulsion and control, complete with "have to", "make", and "always and never".

The whole post was about controlling another smaller and weaker individual because of the will of a stronger and bigger one. That is not a good step for unschooling. It works so much better if your child is your partner. Sure, one that is smaller and with less knowledge, but how cool that a kid can have a partner with more knowledge to help them navigate the world!

I have a teenager right now, and I see very clearly how this kind of parenting destroys relationships between parent child bonds. If this parent continues on this path, they will have a teen that looks at them and says "fuck you! I can do whatever the fuck I want!" Don't believe me? Fine, nobody has to, but I know it to be truth!

I do NOT have that kind of relationship with my teen, she super amazing and others see it, I'm not the only one. I do not have that adversarial relationship with my teen BECAUSE I set out to create a different dynamic and it works!

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/24/2009 10:20 AM, Jenny C wrote:
> I have a teenager right now, and I see very clearly how this kind of parenting destroys relationships between parent child bonds. If this parent continues on this path, they will have a teen that looks at them and says "fuck you! I can do whatever the fuck I want!" Don't believe me? Fine, nobody has to, but I know it to be truth!
>

Well said, Jenny.

Those parents who are extremely controlling, like in that post, usually
end up in really awful relationships with their teens. I've seen it, too.

What interests me are those kids who seem to be compliant and relatively
good-natured and accepting of their parents being super controlling.
There are those who argue very little with their parents, even as their
parents tell them what and when to eat, where to sit, how to stand, who
to talk to, and on and on. I know a teen, she's 18 years old now, whose
parents are like this and she gripes just a little, argues just a
smidgen (like when her mom tells her she can have just two cookies,
she'll say, "Three? Please?" but otherwise seems to get along really
really well with her parents. This girl has completely and totally
accepted that she needed to be controlled in her every move and she
doesn't seem to resist it almost at all and she doesn't seem to hold it
against her parents in the slightest. I've never one single time heard
her complain about her parents being controlling. We've spent
considerable time together, traveled together, and she doesn't even seem
to notice that we have a very different kind of relationship. She just
merrily goes about her life, within the very clear and strict boundaries
set up by her mother. She'll be going offf to college, away from home,
next year, but I really think she'll take all her mother's controls with
her. I don't think she will go crazy with the sudden freedom, I think
she's incorporated all the limits and will mostly stick with them. She
might overeat a little, without her mom to tell her when to stop, but
that's about it. And she's happy and she likes her parents. So - does
that contradict everything we ever talk about here?

I've often said that coercion results resistance or apathy - kids resist
either actively or passively, or they give up and "don't care" about
their parents, they may not fight them, but they disconnect from them.
Active resistance means open conflict arises between parents and kids
and passive resistance means sneakiness.

But, it isn't always true. Some kids totally accept the parental control
and internalize it. That situation fascinates me - I think it is a
particular combination of genetics and compatible personalities plus a
kid who has a sort of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude. Also,
there is an element of the kid being so controlled that they really
don't know there is any other alternative.

-pam

Robyn L. Coburn

> What interests me are those kids who seem to be compliant and relatively
> good-natured and accepting of their parents being super controlling.
> There are those who argue very little with their parents, even as their
> parents tell them what and when to eat, where to sit, how to stand, who
> to talk to, and on and on. I know a teen, she's 18 years old now, whose
> parents are like this and she gripes just a little, argues just a
> smidgen (like when her mom tells her she can have just two cookies,
> she'll say, "Three? Please?" but otherwise seems to get along really
> really well with her parents. This girl has completely and totally
> accepted that she needed to be controlled in her every move and she
> doesn't seem to resist it almost at all and she doesn't seem to hold it
> against her parents in the slightest. >>>>

Let's revisit her in 10 or 15 years and look at how her partner/spouse
treats her and the quality of her relationships. Let's look at what kind of
employee she is. Let's wait and see if there is substance abuse or eating
disorders later on.

I was that well behaved teen, valedictorian, didn't argue much with my
controlling mother. I had bought in to "for my own good". I didn't implode
until later, and I still was able to put on a very good front. My life
looked great and I looked "fabulous", but inside I was rotten and
self-destructive.

For another take on this concept see "Now Voyager".

Oh and for crying out loud - the mother of an 18 year old is telling her how
many cookies she can have!?!! Yikes - that mom will have nothing to occupy
her once the kid is out on her own. ("An idle mind is the devil's
playground" right?)

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com