input regarding sleep issues with 4 year old
Lyla Wolfenstein
i am posting this for a friend - hopefully that is ok, as i think the topic will be of general interest, and this list is about priniciples and ideas, rather than individual people.
so, she has a 4 year old and a 1 year old. for what it's worth, the 4 year old is highly "spirited", "intense", "explosive" - whatever you want to call it to paint the picture of the ways in which he is prone to respond to limits, challenges, overstimulation, etc.
he has been staying up progressively later and later, and sleeping in later and later, or sometimes not even sleeping in - waking at 5am, after falling asleep after 1am or 2am, and then staying up all day and night til quite late, even so short on sleep, and feeling quite fragile/lashing out, etc. in exhaustion.
last night he actually stayed up until 7 or 8 am this morning, and then fell asleep.
the problem is, while he seems content to entertain himself in the middle of the night, he tends to disrupt his everyone else's sleep, coming and going in and out of the room, pounding the wall or the bed in frustration while on his laptop, opening and closing doors, etc. he also has been known to climb bookshelves (yes they could anchor them), get into the fridge and take out lots of food and not eat it, and even leave the house (never yet at night, but they are worried about that).
in addition to feeling confused about why he is staying up all night, they can't figure out how to make it work for them as a family to support his seeming need to explore his independence and freedom in this way - the dad has to get up early for work - 5am. and he works a second job from home that takes til 11 or midnight. the mom cannot seem to sleep during the day even if the baby sleeps, so switching her schedule completely just doesn't feel doable.
anyone else been there with such a young kid? ideas on what might be going on for him? ways to support whatever it is while making it workable for the rest of the family? a new way to look at the situation that niether of us are seeing? (my kids were much older when we came to unschooling).
thanks,
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
so, she has a 4 year old and a 1 year old. for what it's worth, the 4 year old is highly "spirited", "intense", "explosive" - whatever you want to call it to paint the picture of the ways in which he is prone to respond to limits, challenges, overstimulation, etc.
he has been staying up progressively later and later, and sleeping in later and later, or sometimes not even sleeping in - waking at 5am, after falling asleep after 1am or 2am, and then staying up all day and night til quite late, even so short on sleep, and feeling quite fragile/lashing out, etc. in exhaustion.
last night he actually stayed up until 7 or 8 am this morning, and then fell asleep.
the problem is, while he seems content to entertain himself in the middle of the night, he tends to disrupt his everyone else's sleep, coming and going in and out of the room, pounding the wall or the bed in frustration while on his laptop, opening and closing doors, etc. he also has been known to climb bookshelves (yes they could anchor them), get into the fridge and take out lots of food and not eat it, and even leave the house (never yet at night, but they are worried about that).
in addition to feeling confused about why he is staying up all night, they can't figure out how to make it work for them as a family to support his seeming need to explore his independence and freedom in this way - the dad has to get up early for work - 5am. and he works a second job from home that takes til 11 or midnight. the mom cannot seem to sleep during the day even if the baby sleeps, so switching her schedule completely just doesn't feel doable.
anyone else been there with such a young kid? ideas on what might be going on for him? ways to support whatever it is while making it workable for the rest of the family? a new way to look at the situation that niether of us are seeing? (my kids were much older when we came to unschooling).
thanks,
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I would just suggest a little reading (and it really doesn't take much
to get the idea of the book) on the physiology of sleep (Sleepless in
America by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka .. cheap at Amazon). Some good ideas
and strategies there to encourage sleep.
My guess is that life during the day isn't very interactive or whole
body stimulation for the older child while mom cares for the younger
one. Hopefully she takes the child to a nearby park to run and play.
I used to do that twice a day with Karl if I could. Sometimes I just
couldn't but I tried. And I only had one.
~Katherine
to get the idea of the book) on the physiology of sleep (Sleepless in
America by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka .. cheap at Amazon). Some good ideas
and strategies there to encourage sleep.
My guess is that life during the day isn't very interactive or whole
body stimulation for the older child while mom cares for the younger
one. Hopefully she takes the child to a nearby park to run and play.
I used to do that twice a day with Karl if I could. Sometimes I just
couldn't but I tried. And I only had one.
~Katherine
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/20/2009 11:17 AM, katherand@... wrote:
sleeping when the baby is sleeping - I mean, if she expects her son to
be able to sleep when other people want him to, why shouldn't she hold
herself to the same standard?
But more likely the kid isn't getting enough exercise - he probably has
much greater needs for large body activity than his (tired) mom can
imagine. Hours and hours and hours of big muscle movement are what some
kids to keep their emotions on a relatively even keel. I'd pack up the
little one and him and go to a park every day for at least 2 or 3 hours,
minimum. Plus - water play can work wonders - really truly WONDERS!!
Don't doubt me on this - I've had personal experience.
Swimming for a few hours during the day does absolute wonders for sleep.
Any kind of outdoor water play is awesome - there is something both
soothing and exhausting about playing with/in water. Even just playing
with a hose or a sprinkler is good. If you really can't make that work
(and I would make HUGE efforts to put water play into every late
afternoon) then indoor water play is nice, too. Be really creative about
how to create fun playtime in the bathtub - fingerpainting with pudding
was something my kids loved. They also loved "making potions" which
started with me giving them the old spices and herbs from my cupboard,
but I would buy big containers of things like cinnamon at places like
Big Lots and the 99 cent store, too. Fun kitchen gadgets are cool -
those egg beaters that you turn the handle on are super. Corn starch is
really fun to play with - just make it slightly damp - explore it.
Turkey basters - fun. Etc. Also, Slip-n-slides are really good too -
nonstop running, sliding, and water all in one!
A mini-trampoline in front of the tv can be good, too.
-pam
> My guess is that life during the day isn't very interactive or wholeThe mom is sounding kind of unreasonably inflexible in terms of not
> body stimulation for the older child while mom cares for the younger
> one. Hopefully she takes the child to a nearby park to run and play.
> I used to do that twice a day with Karl if I could. Sometimes I just
> couldn't but I tried. And I only had one.
>
sleeping when the baby is sleeping - I mean, if she expects her son to
be able to sleep when other people want him to, why shouldn't she hold
herself to the same standard?
But more likely the kid isn't getting enough exercise - he probably has
much greater needs for large body activity than his (tired) mom can
imagine. Hours and hours and hours of big muscle movement are what some
kids to keep their emotions on a relatively even keel. I'd pack up the
little one and him and go to a park every day for at least 2 or 3 hours,
minimum. Plus - water play can work wonders - really truly WONDERS!!
Don't doubt me on this - I've had personal experience.
Swimming for a few hours during the day does absolute wonders for sleep.
Any kind of outdoor water play is awesome - there is something both
soothing and exhausting about playing with/in water. Even just playing
with a hose or a sprinkler is good. If you really can't make that work
(and I would make HUGE efforts to put water play into every late
afternoon) then indoor water play is nice, too. Be really creative about
how to create fun playtime in the bathtub - fingerpainting with pudding
was something my kids loved. They also loved "making potions" which
started with me giving them the old spices and herbs from my cupboard,
but I would buy big containers of things like cinnamon at places like
Big Lots and the 99 cent store, too. Fun kitchen gadgets are cool -
those egg beaters that you turn the handle on are super. Corn starch is
really fun to play with - just make it slightly damp - explore it.
Turkey basters - fun. Etc. Also, Slip-n-slides are really good too -
nonstop running, sliding, and water all in one!
A mini-trampoline in front of the tv can be good, too.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-anyone else been there with such a young kid?-=-
No young child should be up alone at night. If a parent can't stay up
with him, he needs to be persuaded or pressed to stay in the bed.
Nothing in anything any longtime unschoolers have ever written has
suggested there is no purpose to going to bed and being quiet. That
rumor and problem has a life of its own.
Maybe he could watch a DVD (one with no jump scenes and no loud or
scary scenes, preferably one with music that he's seen a lot) in his
bed. Maybe he could play gameboy in his bed. Maybe the mom could
sleep with him rather than with the dad to protect the dad's sleep.
Not only are such doings as you described disruptive to the family,
they will give unschooling an undeserved bad name.
Maybe send her these:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/balance
The "opposite" of having a bed time isn't the ideal situation here.
It's not have an *arbitrary* bedtime.
To live in opposition of the old rules is just to have a set of new
rules instead of living by principles.
http://sandradodd.com/principles
Neither the parent should be harsh and demanding, nor should the child
be harsh and demanding.
Somewhere on Joyce's site, and I can't find it searching, is something
about the conditions we had for my kids staying up late when they were
little.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No young child should be up alone at night. If a parent can't stay up
with him, he needs to be persuaded or pressed to stay in the bed.
Nothing in anything any longtime unschoolers have ever written has
suggested there is no purpose to going to bed and being quiet. That
rumor and problem has a life of its own.
Maybe he could watch a DVD (one with no jump scenes and no loud or
scary scenes, preferably one with music that he's seen a lot) in his
bed. Maybe he could play gameboy in his bed. Maybe the mom could
sleep with him rather than with the dad to protect the dad's sleep.
Not only are such doings as you described disruptive to the family,
they will give unschooling an undeserved bad name.
Maybe send her these:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/balance
The "opposite" of having a bed time isn't the ideal situation here.
It's not have an *arbitrary* bedtime.
To live in opposition of the old rules is just to have a set of new
rules instead of living by principles.
http://sandradodd.com/principles
Neither the parent should be harsh and demanding, nor should the child
be harsh and demanding.
Somewhere on Joyce's site, and I can't find it searching, is something
about the conditions we had for my kids staying up late when they were
little.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
thank you sandra, pam, and katherine,
i totally agree with the need for more activity. and the issue with giing unschooling a bad name i totally get too. she was certain that i would say, and you all would say "just let him stay up". i told her that wasn't the case!
the problem is, she can't see how to pressure or persuade him to stay in bed, without force, which would need to be physical and would result in huge explosions. he does not listen collaboratively problem solve yet, and his response to perceived controls is quite strong. but i think the perpetual state of overwhelm in their household is part of the issue too -it's hard to really focus on gentle persuasion.
she usually IS the one to stay up with him, if he gets up, but can't stay up 24 hours per day....and is just totally exhausted.
but he has gotten used to his dad snuggling h im to bed, and so waits for the n ight job to end, and then does stay in bed with dad and uses a laptop, watches a movie, etc. dad wears earplugs and this sometimes works - but recently he's been staying up later and later and culminated in the all nighter last night. and she fell asleep...and he was up and about.
i think if his dad didn't have the night job and could do evening/earlier bedtime / quieting down stuff the son might get tired ealier, and perhaps is getting overtired and amped from that and then gets "past the point of no return."
the baby is not sleepy/sleeping at the same time, and that's challanging too.
i have forwarded her the links, thanks! i think it's just good for her to hear that it's not "recommended:" to just "let" him do his thing, no matter the impact.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
i totally agree with the need for more activity. and the issue with giing unschooling a bad name i totally get too. she was certain that i would say, and you all would say "just let him stay up". i told her that wasn't the case!
the problem is, she can't see how to pressure or persuade him to stay in bed, without force, which would need to be physical and would result in huge explosions. he does not listen collaboratively problem solve yet, and his response to perceived controls is quite strong. but i think the perpetual state of overwhelm in their household is part of the issue too -it's hard to really focus on gentle persuasion.
she usually IS the one to stay up with him, if he gets up, but can't stay up 24 hours per day....and is just totally exhausted.
but he has gotten used to his dad snuggling h im to bed, and so waits for the n ight job to end, and then does stay in bed with dad and uses a laptop, watches a movie, etc. dad wears earplugs and this sometimes works - but recently he's been staying up later and later and culminated in the all nighter last night. and she fell asleep...and he was up and about.
i think if his dad didn't have the night job and could do evening/earlier bedtime / quieting down stuff the son might get tired ealier, and perhaps is getting overtired and amped from that and then gets "past the point of no return."
the baby is not sleepy/sleeping at the same time, and that's challanging too.
i have forwarded her the links, thanks! i think it's just good for her to hear that it's not "recommended:" to just "let" him do his thing, no matter the impact.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>>> the problem is, she can't see how to pressure or persuade him tostay in bed, without force, which would need to be physical and would
result in huge explosions. he does not listen collaboratively problem
solve yet, and his response to perceived controls is quite strong. but
i think the perpetual state of overwhelm in their household is part of
the issue too -it's hard to really focus on gentle persuasion. <<<<
It sounds to me like everyone in the household is tired and once
proactive steps are taken things will start to look up. What about the
mother starting the bedtime routine with soothing sounds and sights
earlier before dad is off work since he gets off considerably later
than is probably helpful to the routine going smoothly from that point?
~Katherine
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 20, 2009, at 4:01 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
If-then contracts
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html
Joyce
> Somewhere on Joyce's site, and I can't find it searching, is somethingHere you go:
> about the conditions we had for my kids staying up late when they were
> little.
If-then contracts
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=she usually IS the one to stay up with him, if he gets up, but can't
stay up 24 hours per day...-=-
Neither can he.
-=-i think if his dad didn't have the night job and could do evening/
earlier bedtime / quieting down stuff the son might get tired ealier,
and perhaps is getting overtired and amped from that and then gets
"past the point of no return." -=-
It shouldn't matter which hours he's sleeping, but he'll be sleeping,
eventually.
If the mom has lately started changing her parenting, she should go
more gradually. If she's always been letting him stay up, then it's
nothing to do with unschooling. If he were in school how would she
get him to go to bed? It really doesn't look like an unschooling
problem to me. It looks like a wishing-for-magic situation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stay up 24 hours per day...-=-
Neither can he.
-=-i think if his dad didn't have the night job and could do evening/
earlier bedtime / quieting down stuff the son might get tired ealier,
and perhaps is getting overtired and amped from that and then gets
"past the point of no return." -=-
It shouldn't matter which hours he's sleeping, but he'll be sleeping,
eventually.
If the mom has lately started changing her parenting, she should go
more gradually. If she's always been letting him stay up, then it's
nothing to do with unschooling. If he were in school how would she
get him to go to bed? It really doesn't look like an unschooling
problem to me. It looks like a wishing-for-magic situation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
For our son Eric, as we paid attention it seemed to us that a big part
of his problem going to sleep was about making the transition.
Sometimes he would say that when he lay down to try to sleep, his
brain would just race and race and keep him awake. Transitions are
challenging for him in general.
We have paid attention to things like his activity level during the
day, what he's eating, catching "sleepiness" clues before he gets too
wound up to settle. We also have a bedtime routine with him--which is
possible even for a kid who doesn't have a bedtime! Eric's includes a
warm drink, a cuddle with his dad, being read to by one of his
parents, and his dad lying down with him until he is asleep, usually
only a couple of minutes these days. It's usually his dad who says,
"Ready to go up, Eric?" but Eric agrees if he is tired. Eric's loft
bed is a very special place to him, with blankets he is especially
fond of, a pillow case I made him special, a large stuffed bear his
Uncle Scott gave him, and usually a cat.
All of that said, though, the thing that made the most difference for
Eric in managing that transition was a low dose of melatonin in the
evening. Melatonin is a hormone in the body that signals the need for
sleep (among other things). I have not researched it much because we
started using it on the advice of a beloved and trusted friend who is
a medical professional and who researched it extensively before trying
it with her own son. I did notice a recently released study that found
no harmful effects in using it long term.
For a kid like Eric, for whom the _transition_ itself was problematic,
melatonin has been almost miraculous in helping him get to sleep
efficiently and rest well.
Su
unschooling mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, almost 2
of his problem going to sleep was about making the transition.
Sometimes he would say that when he lay down to try to sleep, his
brain would just race and race and keep him awake. Transitions are
challenging for him in general.
We have paid attention to things like his activity level during the
day, what he's eating, catching "sleepiness" clues before he gets too
wound up to settle. We also have a bedtime routine with him--which is
possible even for a kid who doesn't have a bedtime! Eric's includes a
warm drink, a cuddle with his dad, being read to by one of his
parents, and his dad lying down with him until he is asleep, usually
only a couple of minutes these days. It's usually his dad who says,
"Ready to go up, Eric?" but Eric agrees if he is tired. Eric's loft
bed is a very special place to him, with blankets he is especially
fond of, a pillow case I made him special, a large stuffed bear his
Uncle Scott gave him, and usually a cat.
All of that said, though, the thing that made the most difference for
Eric in managing that transition was a low dose of melatonin in the
evening. Melatonin is a hormone in the body that signals the need for
sleep (among other things). I have not researched it much because we
started using it on the advice of a beloved and trusted friend who is
a medical professional and who researched it extensively before trying
it with her own son. I did notice a recently released study that found
no harmful effects in using it long term.
For a kid like Eric, for whom the _transition_ itself was problematic,
melatonin has been almost miraculous in helping him get to sleep
efficiently and rest well.
Su
unschooling mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, almost 2
Kim Zerbe
<< My guess is that life during the day isn't very interactive or whole body
stimulation for the older child while mom cares for the younger one. >>
That is a good suggestion on the whole, but I know this family and we were
at a birthday party yesterday where the kids were all running around in the
back yard for 3 hrs, playing chase and fighting games. OK, they also ate
cake and played inside a bit, but I thought the kids would all sleep well
last night!
I do have almost the same sleep issues with my 4yo son (he will be 5 in 5
weeks). I believe his body clock is like mine (and his daddy's) where we
prefer activity in the late afternoon and evening and like sleeping in, but
you can look for sleepy signs and steer him to bed gently. It doesn't have
to be a fight.
I've tried lots of things with him, some work well, some not so much. We
have allowed him to stay up and play wii, both with a parent and by himself,
but he'll play until 4am and totally resist going to bed. That doesn't feel
healthy or respectful, though may be fun in the moment. It seems to energize
him and he gets a second wind that is hard to fight (been there myself).
It is a good idea to work on a bedtime routine, though it may not happen at
the same time each night, and even for us that doesn't always work. I have
to suggest it at the right moment, he doesn't often admit to being tired!
I've had success with letting him wind down AND letting him shake his
sillies out during the days. In the evenings, we often play a family wii
game like MarioKart or Damon and his dad play Acme Arsenal or a Lego wii
game with either of us. Sometimes we watch a movie and don't get started
with the wii (for some reason, on those nights it is easier to begin the bed
routine). Anyway, on wii nights you have to play to a certain point in the
game where either there is a clear winner or the mission has gone awry and
Damon is getting bored. Then you sense that moment and announce that YOU are
tired of this game and want to quit. If all 3 of us are there it is easiest
and we can stop the game and head to bed together. We are all involved in
the routine of putting on pajamas, peeing, and brushing our teeth together.
Then we all go to the same bed and one of us parents will read a story while
the other usually reads his or her own book or maybe falls asleep (DH, not
me!). Sometimes Damon names who will read and most often we comply (unless
that person is sick or really tired). And just so you know, this is usually
happening after midnight, possibly closer to 2am.
Sometimes I work on my business in the late nights and Daddy plays wii or
watches TV with Damon. One thing that frustrates me is when Geoff (DH/Daddy)
goes to bed and leaves Damon on the couch playing wii or watching cartoons.
He'll say he invited Damon to bed and he didn't want to go (and he knew I
was downstairs and could bring him up), but if Damon is sleepy you can coax
him to bed by saying you'll him read stories. It's a nice way to fall asleep
first with the pjs & brush teeth routine too. So when I'm working in the
basement, sometimes I don't know that Geoff has gone to bed upstairs (our
house has 3 levels) and Damon is alone with the TV. It's really hard for me
when I emerge at 2, 3, 4am to head to bed and find a nodding off 4yo in
front of cartoons. If he is asleep, I just take him up. If he is near sleep,
I have to be gentle in my approach, but can often pick him up and he'll go
quietly.
(This is another topic, but Geoff is not completely on the same page I am
with unschooling, plus I am still finding my way, and has mistaken my saying
that Damon does not have a bedtime to mean that he gets to stay up as long
as he wants and do whatever he wants and does not initiate the bedtime
routine on his own. I know I am guilty of letting this happen too, when I go
to work and leave them together. I never know what is going to happen. I
have done different things there too, like check on them, or put Damon to
bed myself, acting like we are going together with pjs, brushing my teeth,
reading him stories, then once he is asleep I go to work. Or I might find
Damon asleep on the couch at 1am with Geoff watching TV and doing something
on his laptop. I guess I don't like that because he doesn't get his teeth
brushed and already has cavities and I prefer he not sleep in dirty clothes,
but I can take those off.)
Once I came up around 4am (honestly, it was so quiet I thought they had gone
to bed together much earlier and enjoyed working later without the guilt of
wonering if Damon was alone!) and was surprised to find Damon sitting there
mesmerized by the endless string of cartoons that kept coming on (cartoon
network!) and looking worn out and near sleep but when I said I was going to
bed, he did NOT want to go! He said he wanted to watch more cartoons. I
think he was overstimulated, or past the point of reason, not sure how to
explain, but he got hysterical when I said it was time for both of us to get
some sleep. I'M NOT TIRED!!! I was very tired myself and turned off the TV,
and picked him up. It was awful, he screamed at me that he needed to watch
more cartoons. I feared how late he would be up now that I've riled him. If
I hadn't touched him, he probably would have been asleep in 5 mins. But I
tried to get him to brush his teeth and put on pajamas, but he was
screaming, crying, kicking, and hitting the whole time so I just took him
back downstairs and turned the TV on and left. He was immediately quiet. I
waited for him to come to bed, but he never did. I fell alseep and woke up
at 5:30 to SCREAMS from downstairs. He had woken up and was walking around
the living room, half-heartedly jumping on the trampoline, while crying and
screaming. I put him on the potty and he peed (having not done that before
going to bed) and I carried him upstairs, still crying but with eyes closed.
I laid him down next to me and he stopped crying and snuggled in and was
asleep in 10 seconds.
My son is also the active kind and needs to run and play a LOT during the
day. It is not always enough! Even yesterday when he played for 3 hours with
other kids (mostly unschooled I believe!) he still stayed up past 1am. But I
consider it a good thing when we have that peaceful routine and we are all
in bed by 2am! I wasn't sure of the advice on this site for a while also,
but I think it was mostly older kids who were allowed to stay up as late as
they wanted. I think little ones do need some help. My son does not
recognize when he is tired, but I do. He says he is not tired but once we
lay down and I quietly read a story, he is asleep in 10 mins.
So while I"m pretty flexible as a parent, I"m not sure allowing a kid to
stay up until 5am watching cartoons is the best thing we can do for him. I
feel like we do honor his desire/physical need to stay up later than most
people, but I also try to watch for the signs that he is tired and ready to
wind down with us and move toward the routine of pee, pjs, brush teeth,
stories. It doesn't matter to me when this happens, but it certainly helps
him to wind down. Now he won't always want to or go along with it, which is
where we run into questioning how much we want to force bedtime, and it is
way harder when both parents are too tired to deal with a fight, so that's
where we run into a butting of heads.
I did happen to talk to the friend in question about sleep yesterday, but I
will try to talk to her more about this soon. I am sure she just needs some
help and ideas. She is a good mother and always trying to do the right
thing! I suspect she is caught up in not controlling her son and has given
way to letting her son have freedom above all else and she may need some
more tools in her toolbox to create inviting sleep. AND to help him get his
energy out. I will encourage her in person! Thanks for posting Lyla, we are
already getting some great advice from others on this! I can use it myself
too!
Kim Z
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stimulation for the older child while mom cares for the younger one. >>
That is a good suggestion on the whole, but I know this family and we were
at a birthday party yesterday where the kids were all running around in the
back yard for 3 hrs, playing chase and fighting games. OK, they also ate
cake and played inside a bit, but I thought the kids would all sleep well
last night!
I do have almost the same sleep issues with my 4yo son (he will be 5 in 5
weeks). I believe his body clock is like mine (and his daddy's) where we
prefer activity in the late afternoon and evening and like sleeping in, but
you can look for sleepy signs and steer him to bed gently. It doesn't have
to be a fight.
I've tried lots of things with him, some work well, some not so much. We
have allowed him to stay up and play wii, both with a parent and by himself,
but he'll play until 4am and totally resist going to bed. That doesn't feel
healthy or respectful, though may be fun in the moment. It seems to energize
him and he gets a second wind that is hard to fight (been there myself).
It is a good idea to work on a bedtime routine, though it may not happen at
the same time each night, and even for us that doesn't always work. I have
to suggest it at the right moment, he doesn't often admit to being tired!
I've had success with letting him wind down AND letting him shake his
sillies out during the days. In the evenings, we often play a family wii
game like MarioKart or Damon and his dad play Acme Arsenal or a Lego wii
game with either of us. Sometimes we watch a movie and don't get started
with the wii (for some reason, on those nights it is easier to begin the bed
routine). Anyway, on wii nights you have to play to a certain point in the
game where either there is a clear winner or the mission has gone awry and
Damon is getting bored. Then you sense that moment and announce that YOU are
tired of this game and want to quit. If all 3 of us are there it is easiest
and we can stop the game and head to bed together. We are all involved in
the routine of putting on pajamas, peeing, and brushing our teeth together.
Then we all go to the same bed and one of us parents will read a story while
the other usually reads his or her own book or maybe falls asleep (DH, not
me!). Sometimes Damon names who will read and most often we comply (unless
that person is sick or really tired). And just so you know, this is usually
happening after midnight, possibly closer to 2am.
Sometimes I work on my business in the late nights and Daddy plays wii or
watches TV with Damon. One thing that frustrates me is when Geoff (DH/Daddy)
goes to bed and leaves Damon on the couch playing wii or watching cartoons.
He'll say he invited Damon to bed and he didn't want to go (and he knew I
was downstairs and could bring him up), but if Damon is sleepy you can coax
him to bed by saying you'll him read stories. It's a nice way to fall asleep
first with the pjs & brush teeth routine too. So when I'm working in the
basement, sometimes I don't know that Geoff has gone to bed upstairs (our
house has 3 levels) and Damon is alone with the TV. It's really hard for me
when I emerge at 2, 3, 4am to head to bed and find a nodding off 4yo in
front of cartoons. If he is asleep, I just take him up. If he is near sleep,
I have to be gentle in my approach, but can often pick him up and he'll go
quietly.
(This is another topic, but Geoff is not completely on the same page I am
with unschooling, plus I am still finding my way, and has mistaken my saying
that Damon does not have a bedtime to mean that he gets to stay up as long
as he wants and do whatever he wants and does not initiate the bedtime
routine on his own. I know I am guilty of letting this happen too, when I go
to work and leave them together. I never know what is going to happen. I
have done different things there too, like check on them, or put Damon to
bed myself, acting like we are going together with pjs, brushing my teeth,
reading him stories, then once he is asleep I go to work. Or I might find
Damon asleep on the couch at 1am with Geoff watching TV and doing something
on his laptop. I guess I don't like that because he doesn't get his teeth
brushed and already has cavities and I prefer he not sleep in dirty clothes,
but I can take those off.)
Once I came up around 4am (honestly, it was so quiet I thought they had gone
to bed together much earlier and enjoyed working later without the guilt of
wonering if Damon was alone!) and was surprised to find Damon sitting there
mesmerized by the endless string of cartoons that kept coming on (cartoon
network!) and looking worn out and near sleep but when I said I was going to
bed, he did NOT want to go! He said he wanted to watch more cartoons. I
think he was overstimulated, or past the point of reason, not sure how to
explain, but he got hysterical when I said it was time for both of us to get
some sleep. I'M NOT TIRED!!! I was very tired myself and turned off the TV,
and picked him up. It was awful, he screamed at me that he needed to watch
more cartoons. I feared how late he would be up now that I've riled him. If
I hadn't touched him, he probably would have been asleep in 5 mins. But I
tried to get him to brush his teeth and put on pajamas, but he was
screaming, crying, kicking, and hitting the whole time so I just took him
back downstairs and turned the TV on and left. He was immediately quiet. I
waited for him to come to bed, but he never did. I fell alseep and woke up
at 5:30 to SCREAMS from downstairs. He had woken up and was walking around
the living room, half-heartedly jumping on the trampoline, while crying and
screaming. I put him on the potty and he peed (having not done that before
going to bed) and I carried him upstairs, still crying but with eyes closed.
I laid him down next to me and he stopped crying and snuggled in and was
asleep in 10 seconds.
My son is also the active kind and needs to run and play a LOT during the
day. It is not always enough! Even yesterday when he played for 3 hours with
other kids (mostly unschooled I believe!) he still stayed up past 1am. But I
consider it a good thing when we have that peaceful routine and we are all
in bed by 2am! I wasn't sure of the advice on this site for a while also,
but I think it was mostly older kids who were allowed to stay up as late as
they wanted. I think little ones do need some help. My son does not
recognize when he is tired, but I do. He says he is not tired but once we
lay down and I quietly read a story, he is asleep in 10 mins.
So while I"m pretty flexible as a parent, I"m not sure allowing a kid to
stay up until 5am watching cartoons is the best thing we can do for him. I
feel like we do honor his desire/physical need to stay up later than most
people, but I also try to watch for the signs that he is tired and ready to
wind down with us and move toward the routine of pee, pjs, brush teeth,
stories. It doesn't matter to me when this happens, but it certainly helps
him to wind down. Now he won't always want to or go along with it, which is
where we run into questioning how much we want to force bedtime, and it is
way harder when both parents are too tired to deal with a fight, so that's
where we run into a butting of heads.
I did happen to talk to the friend in question about sleep yesterday, but I
will try to talk to her more about this soon. I am sure she just needs some
help and ideas. She is a good mother and always trying to do the right
thing! I suspect she is caught up in not controlling her son and has given
way to letting her son have freedom above all else and she may need some
more tools in her toolbox to create inviting sleep. AND to help him get his
energy out. I will encourage her in person! Thanks for posting Lyla, we are
already getting some great advice from others on this! I can use it myself
too!
Kim Z
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
thank you su,
i neglected to say that they tried the melatonin, starting a few months ago, and it worked like a charm. (my son is just as you describe, and always has been, with the racing mind, etc., and we recently started using melatonin too - it does work wonderfully.)
unfortunately, with this boy, it seems to have stopped working completely. :( no idea why.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
i neglected to say that they tried the melatonin, starting a few months ago, and it worked like a charm. (my son is just as you describe, and always has been, with the racing mind, etc., and we recently started using melatonin too - it does work wonderfully.)
unfortunately, with this boy, it seems to have stopped working completely. :( no idea why.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html-=-
Thanks. I added it to the sleeping page.
I'm frustrated that people only kind of read what we've written, or
they do what they read in passing, or heard someone say, and then
their families are unhappy and kids are crying and THEN they come to
read (or maybe send their friend to ask).
Should there be a certification required to unschool!?? Probably
not. But should people figure that there are many things to know, and
there are ways to make it work well and ways to screw it up? YES. I
think they should know. It's not free, it's not automatic, it takes
time and thought and awareness and work.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html-=-
Thanks. I added it to the sleeping page.
I'm frustrated that people only kind of read what we've written, or
they do what they read in passing, or heard someone say, and then
their families are unhappy and kids are crying and THEN they come to
read (or maybe send their friend to ask).
Should there be a certification required to unschool!?? Probably
not. But should people figure that there are many things to know, and
there are ways to make it work well and ways to screw it up? YES. I
think they should know. It's not free, it's not automatic, it takes
time and thought and awareness and work.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html-=-
Thanks. I added it to the sleeping page.
I'm frustrated that people only kind of read what we've written, or
they do what they read in passing, or heard someone say, and then
their families are unhappy and kids are crying and THEN they come to
read (or maybe send their friend to ask).
Should there be a certification required to unschool!?? Probably
not. But should people figure that there are many things to know, and
there are ways to make it work well and ways to screw it up? YES. I
think they should know. It's not free, it's not automatic, it takes
time and thought and awareness and work.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/ifthencontracts.html-=-
Thanks. I added it to the sleeping page.
I'm frustrated that people only kind of read what we've written, or
they do what they read in passing, or heard someone say, and then
their families are unhappy and kids are crying and THEN they come to
read (or maybe send their friend to ask).
Should there be a certification required to unschool!?? Probably
not. But should people figure that there are many things to know, and
there are ways to make it work well and ways to screw it up? YES. I
think they should know. It's not free, it's not automatic, it takes
time and thought and awareness and work.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
(This is another topic, but Geoff is not completely on the same page I
am
with unschooling, plus I am still finding my way, and has mistaken my
saying
that Damon does not have a bedtime to mean that he gets to stay up as
long
as he wants and do whatever he wants and does not initiate the bedtime
routine on his own-=-
How is it you get to say that Damon does not have a bedtime if your
husband isn't "on the same page"?
-=- So when I'm working in the
basement, sometimes I don't know that Geoff has gone to bed upstairs
(our
house has 3 levels) and Damon is alone with the TV. It's really hard
for me
when I emerge at 2, 3, 4am to head to bed and find a nodding off 4yo in
front of cartoons. -=-
If you said "no bedtime" in ANY words, then why should Geoff, who
doesn't agree, do what you'd like to have done when you're asleep?
-=-. I guess I don't like that because he doesn't get his teeth
brushed and already has cavities and I prefer he not sleep in dirty
clothes,
but I can take those off.)-=-
These are side issues. You could help him brush teeth and put on
pajamas or loose clean clothes when you're tired yourself. A long
warm bath with toys might be a good way to get him sleepy. Holly used
to listen to a CD and play in the bathtub nearly every night for a
year or more. She'd listen to Barney, on a CD I'd put into a CD
player on the bathroom counter, and she would call me when it was over
or she wasn't having fun anymore.
-=-! I wasn't sure of the advice on this site for a while also,
but I think it was mostly older kids who were allowed to stay up as
late as
they wanted. I think little ones do need some help. -=-
"This site"? This list?
If you can find advice on letting four year olds stay up alone all
night, I'm curious about where you saw it.
Letting children stay up a little later, letting them sleep in
different places, being flexible about where and what and how is a
world different from "no bedtime."
-=-She is a good mother and always trying to do the right
thing! I suspect she is caught up in not controlling her son and has
given
way to letting her son have freedom above all else and she may need some
more tools in her toolbox to create inviting sleep. -=-
I hope they live in a detached house and not an apartment. If a
million unschoolers said "don't control your son," it would not change
the legal and societal requirements for parents to control their
children to some extent. If he DOES leave the house in the middle of
the night, they might not get him back. If they explain to a social
worker that they leave him awake by himself until 4:00 in the morning,
they might not get to raise him to adulthood. Nobody has the right
to absolve a parent of taking care of a child (not one who's in their
care and custody).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(This is another topic, but Geoff is not completely on the same page I
am
with unschooling, plus I am still finding my way, and has mistaken my
saying
that Damon does not have a bedtime to mean that he gets to stay up as
long
as he wants and do whatever he wants and does not initiate the bedtime
routine on his own-=-
How is it you get to say that Damon does not have a bedtime if your
husband isn't "on the same page"?
-=- So when I'm working in the
basement, sometimes I don't know that Geoff has gone to bed upstairs
(our
house has 3 levels) and Damon is alone with the TV. It's really hard
for me
when I emerge at 2, 3, 4am to head to bed and find a nodding off 4yo in
front of cartoons. -=-
If you said "no bedtime" in ANY words, then why should Geoff, who
doesn't agree, do what you'd like to have done when you're asleep?
-=-. I guess I don't like that because he doesn't get his teeth
brushed and already has cavities and I prefer he not sleep in dirty
clothes,
but I can take those off.)-=-
These are side issues. You could help him brush teeth and put on
pajamas or loose clean clothes when you're tired yourself. A long
warm bath with toys might be a good way to get him sleepy. Holly used
to listen to a CD and play in the bathtub nearly every night for a
year or more. She'd listen to Barney, on a CD I'd put into a CD
player on the bathroom counter, and she would call me when it was over
or she wasn't having fun anymore.
-=-! I wasn't sure of the advice on this site for a while also,
but I think it was mostly older kids who were allowed to stay up as
late as
they wanted. I think little ones do need some help. -=-
"This site"? This list?
If you can find advice on letting four year olds stay up alone all
night, I'm curious about where you saw it.
Letting children stay up a little later, letting them sleep in
different places, being flexible about where and what and how is a
world different from "no bedtime."
-=-She is a good mother and always trying to do the right
thing! I suspect she is caught up in not controlling her son and has
given
way to letting her son have freedom above all else and she may need some
more tools in her toolbox to create inviting sleep. -=-
I hope they live in a detached house and not an apartment. If a
million unschoolers said "don't control your son," it would not change
the legal and societal requirements for parents to control their
children to some extent. If he DOES leave the house in the middle of
the night, they might not get him back. If they explain to a social
worker that they leave him awake by himself until 4:00 in the morning,
they might not get to raise him to adulthood. Nobody has the right
to absolve a parent of taking care of a child (not one who's in their
care and custody).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
i agree sandra, and i think i neglected to make something clear in my original post:
what is confusing to this family, and to me, is why/how this young boy ends up only sleeping 2-4 hours sometimes. when he sleeps in after being up most of the night, it makes sense, but why would he wake at 5 am after going to bed at 2?
physiologically, that just sounds "off" - i wonder what mary kurchinka has to say about that - i know she is a fan of "the 7 oclock bedtime" and not letting kids get past the point of tiredness, where they have renewed energy.
i also think it's really challenging to lay down with him with a 1 year old awake, (or asleep and needed/wanting to stay that way) and it can take hours of him laying there awake, etc.
they have, in the past, tried the extra phyical play/outlets during the day, swimming, etc., and nothing seems to have helped, but maybe they just need to keep trying.
do you think there is ever a physiological/physical issue that creates sleep disruption like this?
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what is confusing to this family, and to me, is why/how this young boy ends up only sleeping 2-4 hours sometimes. when he sleeps in after being up most of the night, it makes sense, but why would he wake at 5 am after going to bed at 2?
physiologically, that just sounds "off" - i wonder what mary kurchinka has to say about that - i know she is a fan of "the 7 oclock bedtime" and not letting kids get past the point of tiredness, where they have renewed energy.
i also think it's really challenging to lay down with him with a 1 year old awake, (or asleep and needed/wanting to stay that way) and it can take hours of him laying there awake, etc.
they have, in the past, tried the extra phyical play/outlets during the day, swimming, etc., and nothing seems to have helped, but maybe they just need to keep trying.
do you think there is ever a physiological/physical issue that creates sleep disruption like this?
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< the problem is, she can't see how to pressure or persuade him to stay
in bed, without force, which would need to be physical and would result in
huge explosions. he does not listen collaboratively problem solve yet, and
his response to perceived controls is quite strong. but i think the
perpetual state of overwhelm in their household is part of the issue
too -it's hard to really focus on gentle persuasion. >>>>
When I read the original post the first thing I thought was he's not getting
enough focussed attention because Mom has the new baby and Dad has really
long hours, so he's looking for it at inappropriate times.
The baby nap times could become the little boy's special times with Mom. I
concur with the physical activity, but I would caution your friend to watch
out for driving at the wrong time. A car nap can be a disaster for later
sleeping. OTOH sometimes it is just what you want to get back onto a normal
timetable. Maybe a sitter could take him to the park or yard and play with
him vigorously a few days a week.
It was around about 4 years old I think that Jayn's unusual sleep pattern
started to manifest itself. For a while it looked like her sleep was just
erratic. It wasn't until I started actually writing down the waking and
sleep hours on the calendar that I saw what her underlying pattern was, and
still is.
Maybe recording some times would allow your friend to see any pattern that
might exist. Then perhaps it would allow everyone to work around a bit.
Maybe Dad, hard working as he undoubtedly is, would be able to make an hour
in the morning before work, if the little boy is really an early riser.
Is he teething? Sometimes that causes disruptions in emotional states and
physical reactions that affect sleep, eating, everything. But that's
temporary.
Other than nursing as an infant, I've never been able to *make* Jayn go to
sleep when she wasn't ready. But I have done whatever I needed to to ensure
that she wasn't disturbing other people - dh or our neighbors - at night. If
we had lived in a house rather than apartment that would have been easier.
If we had more than one bedroom that would have been easier. If I had a
second baby it would have been much harder.
There was a week or so (really a very short time) when Jayn was I think a
bit younger maybe 3, when she had first learnt how to open the front door
locks and thought it was OK to go outside without telling me. When I asked
her to tell me that she wanted to go out, she reacted like I was planning on
locking her in the closet for ten years, some intolerable restriction. I was
afraid that she would go out at night, what would be a joke in her mind, so
I dragged a heavy chair in front of the door when we both went to bed. Too
heavy for her to move. It wasn't punitive or done with a lot of explanation.
It was just there at night until the idea,or my fear, of her going out while
I was sleeping faded away from both our minds. To me it was along the lines
of anchoring the bookshelves, or putting pillows under the sofa when she
climbed along the back. Maybe there would have been another solution if I
had posted here about the dilemma at the time. I don't think she remembers
it happening now.
Now when I ask her to tell me if she and her friends want to play out the
front gate of the building, so I can go with them, she is perfectly pleasant
and happy to do so. I really think it was an issue of maturity, and the
development of some empathy, as well as a greater understanding of cause and
effect.
In our case I've explained a few things: kids playing outside during the day
could lead strangers to think they have snuck out of the nearby school and
make an unwanted phone call. They can get loud without realizing it and
bother the lady who lives in front, who shouts at the kids and calls the
landlord. As unlikely as it is, there are bad guys in the world who could
take advantage of what look like unsupervised kids. So there are a lot of
reasons to do with my comfort and serenity to go outside with her when she
wants to go. I have made a committment to her that I will almost always do
that, rather than tell her she can't. It would have to be a very compelling
reason why I couldn't leave the house (like vomiting incessantly or
something). I can even take my excellent phone out the front and it still
works.
If he is going to be up at night he needs to be safe, and everyone needs to
feel confident that he is safe. I think that maybe if there is fear that he
will go out, if he has done, and this is interfering with everyone's
serenity, some locks or other barriers need to be quietly put in place until
he isn't interested in sneaking out.
And he should be taken out with a companion as much as possible when it is
safe during the day - or evening. Night walks with flashlights can be great
fun.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
in bed, without force, which would need to be physical and would result in
huge explosions. he does not listen collaboratively problem solve yet, and
his response to perceived controls is quite strong. but i think the
perpetual state of overwhelm in their household is part of the issue
too -it's hard to really focus on gentle persuasion. >>>>
When I read the original post the first thing I thought was he's not getting
enough focussed attention because Mom has the new baby and Dad has really
long hours, so he's looking for it at inappropriate times.
The baby nap times could become the little boy's special times with Mom. I
concur with the physical activity, but I would caution your friend to watch
out for driving at the wrong time. A car nap can be a disaster for later
sleeping. OTOH sometimes it is just what you want to get back onto a normal
timetable. Maybe a sitter could take him to the park or yard and play with
him vigorously a few days a week.
It was around about 4 years old I think that Jayn's unusual sleep pattern
started to manifest itself. For a while it looked like her sleep was just
erratic. It wasn't until I started actually writing down the waking and
sleep hours on the calendar that I saw what her underlying pattern was, and
still is.
Maybe recording some times would allow your friend to see any pattern that
might exist. Then perhaps it would allow everyone to work around a bit.
Maybe Dad, hard working as he undoubtedly is, would be able to make an hour
in the morning before work, if the little boy is really an early riser.
Is he teething? Sometimes that causes disruptions in emotional states and
physical reactions that affect sleep, eating, everything. But that's
temporary.
Other than nursing as an infant, I've never been able to *make* Jayn go to
sleep when she wasn't ready. But I have done whatever I needed to to ensure
that she wasn't disturbing other people - dh or our neighbors - at night. If
we had lived in a house rather than apartment that would have been easier.
If we had more than one bedroom that would have been easier. If I had a
second baby it would have been much harder.
There was a week or so (really a very short time) when Jayn was I think a
bit younger maybe 3, when she had first learnt how to open the front door
locks and thought it was OK to go outside without telling me. When I asked
her to tell me that she wanted to go out, she reacted like I was planning on
locking her in the closet for ten years, some intolerable restriction. I was
afraid that she would go out at night, what would be a joke in her mind, so
I dragged a heavy chair in front of the door when we both went to bed. Too
heavy for her to move. It wasn't punitive or done with a lot of explanation.
It was just there at night until the idea,or my fear, of her going out while
I was sleeping faded away from both our minds. To me it was along the lines
of anchoring the bookshelves, or putting pillows under the sofa when she
climbed along the back. Maybe there would have been another solution if I
had posted here about the dilemma at the time. I don't think she remembers
it happening now.
Now when I ask her to tell me if she and her friends want to play out the
front gate of the building, so I can go with them, she is perfectly pleasant
and happy to do so. I really think it was an issue of maturity, and the
development of some empathy, as well as a greater understanding of cause and
effect.
In our case I've explained a few things: kids playing outside during the day
could lead strangers to think they have snuck out of the nearby school and
make an unwanted phone call. They can get loud without realizing it and
bother the lady who lives in front, who shouts at the kids and calls the
landlord. As unlikely as it is, there are bad guys in the world who could
take advantage of what look like unsupervised kids. So there are a lot of
reasons to do with my comfort and serenity to go outside with her when she
wants to go. I have made a committment to her that I will almost always do
that, rather than tell her she can't. It would have to be a very compelling
reason why I couldn't leave the house (like vomiting incessantly or
something). I can even take my excellent phone out the front and it still
works.
If he is going to be up at night he needs to be safe, and everyone needs to
feel confident that he is safe. I think that maybe if there is fear that he
will go out, if he has done, and this is interfering with everyone's
serenity, some locks or other barriers need to be quietly put in place until
he isn't interested in sneaking out.
And he should be taken out with a companion as much as possible when it is
safe during the day - or evening. Night walks with flashlights can be great
fun.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/20/2009 1:15 PM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
more.
She could put on a dvd, in his room, and lie down on his bed with him
and sleep while he watches it.
-pam
> the problem is, she can't see how to pressure or persuade him to stay in bed, without force, which would need to be physical and would result in huge explosions.She needs to be more imaginative, then. Along with tiring him out a LOT
more.
She could put on a dvd, in his room, and lie down on his bed with him
and sleep while he watches it.
-pam
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
what is confusing to this family, and to me, is why/how this young boy ends up only sleeping 2-4 hours sometimes. when he sleeps in after being up most of the night, it makes sense, but why would he wake at 5 am after going to bed at 2?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Does he have a dark enough room. Some kids will wake up if there is light no matter what.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-=-=-
Does he have a dark enough room. Some kids will wake up if there is light no matter what.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-do you think there is ever a physiological/physical issue that
creates sleep disruption like this? -=-
I don't think it's "disruption."
If he used to have a bedtime and now he doesn't, I think there were
words or deals made, or threats removed, and he's reacting to that.
It seemed to me that unschooling ideas were being blamed. If
unschooling fixes can't work, if she really thinks it's something
physical, then she could look elsewhere.
From experience, I think if the house is quieter at some point and
the people speak more softly and if the lights are lower and the TV is
turned down it's a big signal that it's quiet time. If he can't be
quiet, he shouldn't have the option to try. He's very young and might
not be safe up alone, either.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
creates sleep disruption like this? -=-
I don't think it's "disruption."
If he used to have a bedtime and now he doesn't, I think there were
words or deals made, or threats removed, and he's reacting to that.
It seemed to me that unschooling ideas were being blamed. If
unschooling fixes can't work, if she really thinks it's something
physical, then she could look elsewhere.
From experience, I think if the house is quieter at some point and
the people speak more softly and if the lights are lower and the TV is
turned down it's a big signal that it's quiet time. If he can't be
quiet, he shouldn't have the option to try. He's very young and might
not be safe up alone, either.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
We always "lowered the level" of noise and light and activity - in the
main part of the house, as the evening progressed. Nowadays, Rosie puts
on the Gilmore Girls or some other tv series on dvd that she's watched
repeatedly - she often falls asleep in the first minute or two. When I
can't sleep, I listen to books on my ipod - sometimes I listen half the
night, sometimes I fall asleep within minutes.
-pam
main part of the house, as the evening progressed. Nowadays, Rosie puts
on the Gilmore Girls or some other tv series on dvd that she's watched
repeatedly - she often falls asleep in the first minute or two. When I
can't sleep, I listen to books on my ipod - sometimes I listen half the
night, sometimes I fall asleep within minutes.
-pam
On 5/20/2009 1:54 PM, katherand@... wrote:
> What about the
> mother starting the bedtime routine with soothing sounds and sights
> earlier before dad is off work since he gets off considerably later
> than is probably helpful to the routine going smoothly from that point?
>
[email protected]
>>>> what is confusing to this family, and to me, is why/how this youngboy ends up only sleeping 2-4 hours sometimes. when he sleeps in
after being up most of the night, it makes sense, but why would he wake
at 5 am after going to bed at 2? <<<<
I don't know how in depth Kurchinka gets about sleep physiology. I
skimmed and think I got the gist of what she said. It was how
relationships can influence stress either to subside (relaxation and
sleep) or increase (tension and wakefulness).
The body does close to everything it needs according to messages sent
to our nervous system via hormones. Once a body gets tired and loses a
large store and THEN doesn't have the chance to renew its store from
lack of sleep, then it takes hanging with a kid preferably earlier than
preferred bedtimes to encourage sleep, and maybe use some melatonin or
even better warm up some milk after hanging out for a bit and bring it
to the child. I hope he's not hungry because that would stop him from
sleeping. It does Karl.
One of the things I also would like to emphasize is that a mom of 1
year old may not have much one on one time with her older child and
this may be exasperating the situation, causing him to feel even less
like going to sleep. For a while, I would stop making bedtime be about
anybody but mom and the kids. Evenings might go much better with more
calm presence (whoever that is, if not mom). Just by the sheer
influence of bodily being there to model sleep cues.. yawning, hemming,
drooping eyes, cuddly smiles, maybe mentioning how one feels a little
colder just before dropping off, or just offering a cute favored pillow
and blankie, and so on.
And if the child isn't in a bed during this wind down period, well in
my house that would be alright. Getting more sleep would be my first
priority.
~Katherine
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/20/2009 2:07 PM, Kim Zerbe wrote:
really relaxing long day at the beach or a park - or even with just one
or two other kids in a backyard. Some kids are overstimulated by that
much intense play, that much excitement, that much interaction. For
Roxana, she'd have had a harder time sleeping that night even if she was
worn out, physically.
So - let me restate my "he needs a lot more exercise" advice - I think
it is possible he needs a whole lot more outdoor physical activity that
takes place in a way that is more under his control - not frenzied
activity, but climbing and running and playing in very satisfying ways.
I'm sorry I'm not explaining this well - I know what I mean, but I'm
having a little trouble finding the words. Activity can be relaxing. I
think some kids need a LOT of very relaxing but also very physical
activity in order to be good-natured and calm.
-pam
>An afternoon at a birthday party is really just not the same thing as a
> That is a good suggestion on the whole, but I know this family and we were
> at a birthday party yesterday where the kids were all running around in the
> back yard for 3 hrs, playing chase and fighting games. OK, they also ate
> cake and played inside a bit, but I thought the kids would all sleep well
> last night!
>
really relaxing long day at the beach or a park - or even with just one
or two other kids in a backyard. Some kids are overstimulated by that
much intense play, that much excitement, that much interaction. For
Roxana, she'd have had a harder time sleeping that night even if she was
worn out, physically.
So - let me restate my "he needs a lot more exercise" advice - I think
it is possible he needs a whole lot more outdoor physical activity that
takes place in a way that is more under his control - not frenzied
activity, but climbing and running and playing in very satisfying ways.
I'm sorry I'm not explaining this well - I know what I mean, but I'm
having a little trouble finding the words. Activity can be relaxing. I
think some kids need a LOT of very relaxing but also very physical
activity in order to be good-natured and calm.
-pam
[email protected]
>>>> Does he have a dark enough room. Some kids will wake up if thereis light no matter what. <<<<
Light effects waking hormone levels in the body. Darkness effects
sleep hormones.
~Katherine
Su Penn
On May 20, 2009, at 7:26 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
of my boys when he wasn't ready to go to bed but wasn't comfortable
being awake on his own in the house, either. I'd start a movie for him
in the living room, then lie down and sleep on the couch. I am a
person who can pretty much sleep wherever, and with lights and noise,
if I'm tired, so for me that was a fine thing. My partner would not
have been able to do it. We'd get anything done that needed to be done
(peeing, changing clothes, etc) before I lay down, and then I'd take
him to bed when he was ready.
Su
> She could put on a dvd, in his room, and lie down on his bed with himUntil you mentioned this, I had forgotten I used to do this with one
> and sleep while he watches it.
of my boys when he wasn't ready to go to bed but wasn't comfortable
being awake on his own in the house, either. I'd start a movie for him
in the living room, then lie down and sleep on the couch. I am a
person who can pretty much sleep wherever, and with lights and noise,
if I'm tired, so for me that was a fine thing. My partner would not
have been able to do it. We'd get anything done that needed to be done
(peeing, changing clothes, etc) before I lay down, and then I'd take
him to bed when he was ready.
Su
[email protected]
>>>> Some kids are overstimulated by thatmuch intense play, that much excitement, that much interaction. For
Roxana, she'd have had a harder time sleeping that night even if she was
worn out, physically. <<<<
Social play, especially new social contacts, and new ideas exchanged
definitely gives a child more to process mentally than just plain
running around physical play. Go play at the park swings and slides.
Take a picnic and some art scribbling activities or cars and play in
the dirt together. Take dress up play clothes and talk about stories.
Interaction with a person like mom or dad who you know well isn't so
crazy exciting as playing with new kids and watching people open
presents and then everybody eating cake and ice cream.
~Katherine
Kim Zerbe
-=-(This is another topic, but Geoff is not completely on the same page I
am with unschooling, plus I am still finding my way, and has mistaken my
saying that Damon does not have a bedtime to mean that he gets to stay up as
long as he wants and do whatever he wants and does not initiate the bedtime
routine on his own-=-
S: How is it you get to say that Damon does not have a bedtime if your
husband isn't "on the same page"?
OK, I hear ya, great way to talk about my husband! We have had many talks
about parenting and have agreed that there is no set bed TIME, but this came
about mostly because Damon would NOT go to bed before he was ready... for
anyone! I did try for a short period when he was 2. He was staying up later
and later and people around me kept saying he's only 2, he needs to be in
bed by 8 o'clock or some magic time. I got worried, read some books on
sleep, and tried to calm him down and get him to bed by 9pm or even 10. I
started adding baths to our routine "to calm him down" and music and lights
dimmed and nursing and stories and the cd would end and I'd start it again.
More nursing so I was then even more exhausted and wishing for sleep but he
was more energized and would run downstairs to see what Daddy was doing. It
took more than 2 hours to get this kid to sleep by 11 or 12pm (nursing 5
times) and I was a wreck. Well, I didn't do that more than a week and said
this is NOT working for our family! People swore we had to get our kid in
bed so we could have couple time, but it wasn't happening! Geoff was
downstairs watching movies alone while I was doing all this WORK! I decided
it wasn't worth it and I wanted to enjoy my time with my son and not have to
stress about bed time. Now we play wii together or watch a disney movie or
play a board game. Like I said, when I'm on it, I can tell when he's ready
for sleep and we wind down and do our upstairs routine, however long that
takes. Maybe 9 stories, maybe 1.
S: If you said "no bedtime" in ANY words, then why should Geoff, who doesn't
agree, do what you'd like to have done when you're asleep?
(I'm not asleep, just working in the basement, but I get what you are
saying, I'm not there and hoping he'll do what I would do if I were there.)
I guess I expect more of him than he is willing to do. He expects me to do
almost everything to do with parenting and he steps in once in a while when
it's something fun or when I seem to really need a break. He works a
technical job all day and is often tired and irritated when he comes home. I
am with our son all day and working a job that I literally squeeze into odd
time slots which are mostly after dinner and into the evenings. I don't work
every night, but I am paying more attention to how things go and realizing a
need for ME to do something differently.
-=-! I wasn't sure of the advice on this site for a while also, but I think
it was mostly older kids who were allowed to stay up as late as they wanted.
I think little ones do need some help. -=-
S: "This site"? This list?If you can find advice on letting four year olds
stay up alone all night, I'm curious about where you saw it. Letting
children stay up a little later, letting them sleep in different places,
being flexible about where and what and how is a world different from "no
bedtime."
I did mean this list, sorry. In general I'm thinking about the way people
here talk about letting their kids stay up and how they ask them to be quiet
and maybe do things to keep them safe if they (the parents) choose to go to
sleep and leave the child awake. I am sure the kids are older as your
(Sandra's) advice has always been to gently prepare your child for sleep in
a respectful manner. Here is one reply I saw today in regards to this issue:
<<If he is going to be up at night he needs to be safe, and everyone needs
to feel confident that he is safe. I think that maybe if there is fear that
he will go out, if he has done, and this is interfering with everyone's
serenity, some locks or other barriers need to be quietly put in place until
he isn't interested in sneaking out. >>
This seems to condone letting the 4yo stay up as long as he's not leaving
the house! Maybe people forget what it's like when your kid is 4. I
appreciate the discussions that happen here, but I can see where things like
this can be misleading (or maybe she really means it's OK, then it's just
bad advice).
Also I'm sure Sandra has seen this way more times than most, that some
people jump into unschooling with both feet and abandon all logic! This was
a very recent topic I read with interest! You have a nice page about taking
it slow and easy, it was a nice way to say SLOW DOWN! But even when we think
we are doing all the right things, there are things we have missed.
(Obviously because the friend in question is the person who introduced ME to
unschooling, so I thought she knew what she was doing!) Good thing I am not
just following one friend, eh? I have this list and others and web sites and
places to go and read and ask questions and learn. She is learning too, I'm
sure Lyla will share all of our responses with her very soon!!!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
am with unschooling, plus I am still finding my way, and has mistaken my
saying that Damon does not have a bedtime to mean that he gets to stay up as
long as he wants and do whatever he wants and does not initiate the bedtime
routine on his own-=-
S: How is it you get to say that Damon does not have a bedtime if your
husband isn't "on the same page"?
OK, I hear ya, great way to talk about my husband! We have had many talks
about parenting and have agreed that there is no set bed TIME, but this came
about mostly because Damon would NOT go to bed before he was ready... for
anyone! I did try for a short period when he was 2. He was staying up later
and later and people around me kept saying he's only 2, he needs to be in
bed by 8 o'clock or some magic time. I got worried, read some books on
sleep, and tried to calm him down and get him to bed by 9pm or even 10. I
started adding baths to our routine "to calm him down" and music and lights
dimmed and nursing and stories and the cd would end and I'd start it again.
More nursing so I was then even more exhausted and wishing for sleep but he
was more energized and would run downstairs to see what Daddy was doing. It
took more than 2 hours to get this kid to sleep by 11 or 12pm (nursing 5
times) and I was a wreck. Well, I didn't do that more than a week and said
this is NOT working for our family! People swore we had to get our kid in
bed so we could have couple time, but it wasn't happening! Geoff was
downstairs watching movies alone while I was doing all this WORK! I decided
it wasn't worth it and I wanted to enjoy my time with my son and not have to
stress about bed time. Now we play wii together or watch a disney movie or
play a board game. Like I said, when I'm on it, I can tell when he's ready
for sleep and we wind down and do our upstairs routine, however long that
takes. Maybe 9 stories, maybe 1.
S: If you said "no bedtime" in ANY words, then why should Geoff, who doesn't
agree, do what you'd like to have done when you're asleep?
(I'm not asleep, just working in the basement, but I get what you are
saying, I'm not there and hoping he'll do what I would do if I were there.)
I guess I expect more of him than he is willing to do. He expects me to do
almost everything to do with parenting and he steps in once in a while when
it's something fun or when I seem to really need a break. He works a
technical job all day and is often tired and irritated when he comes home. I
am with our son all day and working a job that I literally squeeze into odd
time slots which are mostly after dinner and into the evenings. I don't work
every night, but I am paying more attention to how things go and realizing a
need for ME to do something differently.
-=-! I wasn't sure of the advice on this site for a while also, but I think
it was mostly older kids who were allowed to stay up as late as they wanted.
I think little ones do need some help. -=-
S: "This site"? This list?If you can find advice on letting four year olds
stay up alone all night, I'm curious about where you saw it. Letting
children stay up a little later, letting them sleep in different places,
being flexible about where and what and how is a world different from "no
bedtime."
I did mean this list, sorry. In general I'm thinking about the way people
here talk about letting their kids stay up and how they ask them to be quiet
and maybe do things to keep them safe if they (the parents) choose to go to
sleep and leave the child awake. I am sure the kids are older as your
(Sandra's) advice has always been to gently prepare your child for sleep in
a respectful manner. Here is one reply I saw today in regards to this issue:
<<If he is going to be up at night he needs to be safe, and everyone needs
to feel confident that he is safe. I think that maybe if there is fear that
he will go out, if he has done, and this is interfering with everyone's
serenity, some locks or other barriers need to be quietly put in place until
he isn't interested in sneaking out. >>
This seems to condone letting the 4yo stay up as long as he's not leaving
the house! Maybe people forget what it's like when your kid is 4. I
appreciate the discussions that happen here, but I can see where things like
this can be misleading (or maybe she really means it's OK, then it's just
bad advice).
Also I'm sure Sandra has seen this way more times than most, that some
people jump into unschooling with both feet and abandon all logic! This was
a very recent topic I read with interest! You have a nice page about taking
it slow and easy, it was a nice way to say SLOW DOWN! But even when we think
we are doing all the right things, there are things we have missed.
(Obviously because the friend in question is the person who introduced ME to
unschooling, so I thought she knew what she was doing!) Good thing I am not
just following one friend, eh? I have this list and others and web sites and
places to go and read and ask questions and learn. She is learning too, I'm
sure Lyla will share all of our responses with her very soon!!!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
<<We always "lowered the level" of noise and light and activity - in the
main part of the house, as the evening progressed. Nowadays, Rosie puts
on the Gilmore Girls or some other tv series on dvd that she's watched
repeatedly - she often falls asleep in the first minute or two. When I
can't sleep, I listen to books on my ipod - sometimes I listen half the
night, sometimes I fall asleep within minutes.>>
This got me smiling! Damon used to fall asleep watching the movie Curious
George (with the music by Jack Johnson lulling him off). I used to put it on
during the daytime when he was 3 and really needed a nap but was resisting
sleep and wanted to watch a movie. I would suggest Curious George (only
worked if he had not seen it too recently) and close the blinds and snuggle
up with him, and eventually he'd be asleep on my lap. Nursing helped too,
but just knowing that there was this 1 movie that could work like magic was
nice. I had actually forgotten about that bit of magic! I think I will bring
that DVD to the conference this weekend in case I need it. We have not spent
nights at a conference before and I'm not sure what the night scene is like
at the hotel. Could be stimulating, but he could also end up wiped out at
the end of a day.
Thanks for the idea! :)
Kim
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=4410250/grpspId=1705542111/msgId
=45361/stime=1242862228/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
main part of the house, as the evening progressed. Nowadays, Rosie puts
on the Gilmore Girls or some other tv series on dvd that she's watched
repeatedly - she often falls asleep in the first minute or two. When I
can't sleep, I listen to books on my ipod - sometimes I listen half the
night, sometimes I fall asleep within minutes.>>
This got me smiling! Damon used to fall asleep watching the movie Curious
George (with the music by Jack Johnson lulling him off). I used to put it on
during the daytime when he was 3 and really needed a nap but was resisting
sleep and wanted to watch a movie. I would suggest Curious George (only
worked if he had not seen it too recently) and close the blinds and snuggle
up with him, and eventually he'd be asleep on my lap. Nursing helped too,
but just knowing that there was this 1 movie that could work like magic was
nice. I had actually forgotten about that bit of magic! I think I will bring
that DVD to the conference this weekend in case I need it. We have not spent
nights at a conference before and I'm not sure what the night scene is like
at the hotel. Could be stimulating, but he could also end up wiped out at
the end of a day.
Thanks for the idea! :)
Kim
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=4410250/grpspId=1705542111/msgId
=45361/stime=1242862228/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
I'm sorry I'm not explaining this well - I know what I mean, but I'm
having a little trouble finding the words. Activity can be relaxing. I
think some kids need a LOT of very relaxing but also very physical
activity in order to be good-natured and calm.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
having a little trouble finding the words. Activity can be relaxing. I
think some kids need a LOT of very relaxing but also very physical
activity in order to be good-natured and calm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>i totally get the difference and know just what you mean pam, thanks.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This got me smiling! Damon used to fall asleep watching the movie
Curious
George (with the music by Jack Johnson lulling him off). I used to put
it on
during the daytime when he was 3 and really needed a nap but was
resisting
sleep and wanted to watch a movie. -=-
Marty's movie was Dumbo.
-=-This seems to condone letting the 4yo stay up as long as he's not
leaving
the house! Maybe people forget what it's like when your kid is 4.-=-
I'd put Kirby in a high chair when he was really little and he was
wide awake, but the deal even then was I would put cartoons on if he
would be really quiet. That was in the video tape days and we had a
four or six hour cartoon tape he liked lots and he had hardly ever
seen the whole thing. I told him if the tape ended he could call me,
but he never did. I would pad him up and give him a little pillow and
a sippy cup or two and a little bowl of food.
As he got older, if he wanted to stay in the living room quietly and
then either sleep on the couch or come back into the bed, he could.
This worked because he cooperated with us, and because he was glad to
be up, or sorry to be awake when everyone else was sleepy, but willing
to have the option not to have to lie down just because everyone else
was.
Holly, especially, was really good about picking a movie and staying
in a bed on the floor. We had folding futons (still do) and blankets
or sleeping bags or pillows--whatever she wanted. We would create a
comfortable place for her to be safe and warm. She didn't have to
stay right there, but she did need to be quiet.
I do remember having little kids. I remember being exhausted because
I had three little kids and Keith worked a LOT, and when Holly was
five he took a temporary job in Minneapolis that ended up lasting
nearly four years. He was home ten days a month, and the other times
it was just me and the kids. I did have adult friends who were
willing to hang out with me here and they were helpful with the kids
sometimes, and gave me adults to talk to.
I think the relationship with the kids was first. Nursing, reasoning,
respect, negotiating as much freedom and togetherness as they wanted
from the beginning, made the other things work. They didn't happen
suddenly. They grew gradually.
Other unschoolers have come to these things later, though, so it can
be done--it's more than just theoretical, but it's also not guaranteed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Curious
George (with the music by Jack Johnson lulling him off). I used to put
it on
during the daytime when he was 3 and really needed a nap but was
resisting
sleep and wanted to watch a movie. -=-
Marty's movie was Dumbo.
-=-This seems to condone letting the 4yo stay up as long as he's not
leaving
the house! Maybe people forget what it's like when your kid is 4.-=-
I'd put Kirby in a high chair when he was really little and he was
wide awake, but the deal even then was I would put cartoons on if he
would be really quiet. That was in the video tape days and we had a
four or six hour cartoon tape he liked lots and he had hardly ever
seen the whole thing. I told him if the tape ended he could call me,
but he never did. I would pad him up and give him a little pillow and
a sippy cup or two and a little bowl of food.
As he got older, if he wanted to stay in the living room quietly and
then either sleep on the couch or come back into the bed, he could.
This worked because he cooperated with us, and because he was glad to
be up, or sorry to be awake when everyone else was sleepy, but willing
to have the option not to have to lie down just because everyone else
was.
Holly, especially, was really good about picking a movie and staying
in a bed on the floor. We had folding futons (still do) and blankets
or sleeping bags or pillows--whatever she wanted. We would create a
comfortable place for her to be safe and warm. She didn't have to
stay right there, but she did need to be quiet.
I do remember having little kids. I remember being exhausted because
I had three little kids and Keith worked a LOT, and when Holly was
five he took a temporary job in Minneapolis that ended up lasting
nearly four years. He was home ten days a month, and the other times
it was just me and the kids. I did have adult friends who were
willing to hang out with me here and they were helpful with the kids
sometimes, and gave me adults to talk to.
I think the relationship with the kids was first. Nursing, reasoning,
respect, negotiating as much freedom and togetherness as they wanted
from the beginning, made the other things work. They didn't happen
suddenly. They grew gradually.
Other unschoolers have come to these things later, though, so it can
be done--it's more than just theoretical, but it's also not guaranteed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laureen
Heya!
I'm chiming in a little late. I have a nearly 1 year old girl, a nearly 4
year old (next week!) and a nearly 7 year old. So same age gap, plus one
more active person in the mix.
I'm chiming in a little late. I have a nearly 1 year old girl, a nearly 4
year old (next week!) and a nearly 7 year old. So same age gap, plus one
more active person in the mix.
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...>wrote:
> so, she has a 4 year old and a 1 year old. for what it's worth, the 4 year
> old is highly "spirited", "intense", "explosive" - whatever you want to
> call it to paint the picture of the ways in which he is prone to respond to
> limits, challenges, overstimulation, etc.
Gotcha. Same here.
>
> he has been staying up progressively later and later, and sleeping in later
> and later, or sometimes not even sleeping in - waking at 5am, after falling
> asleep after 1am or 2am, and then staying up all day and night til quite
> late, even so short on sleep, and feeling quite fragile/lashing out, etc. in
> exhaustion.
For Kestrel, (the 4 year old), if he does not nap during the day, it's very
difficult for him to wind down to sleep. Oddly, if he has napped, he'll even
suggest bedtime himself. If he has not, he will fight it with every ounce of
his being, even including laying down under the dome light and staring at
it.
>
> the problem is, while he seems content to entertain himself in the middle
> of the night, he tends to disrupt his everyone else's sleep, coming and
> going in and out of the room, pounding the wall or the bed in frustration
> while on his laptop, opening and closing doors, etc. he also has been
> known to climb bookshelves (yes they could anchor them), get into the fridge
> and take out lots of food and not eat it, and even leave the house (never
> yet at night, but they are worried about that).
I can't imagine turning Kes loose without one of the adults present. Maybe
I'm just helicoptering, but he needs *way* more input from us than that.
>
>
> in addition to feeling confused about why he is staying up all night, they
> can't figure out how to make it work for them as a family to support his
> seeming need to explore his independence and freedom in this way - the dad
> has to get up early for work - 5am. and he works a second job from home
> that takes til 11 or midnight. the mom cannot seem to sleep during the day
> even if the baby sleeps, so switching her schedule completely just doesn't
> feel doable.
Trying to time naps is so incredibly tough. Especially when you've got one
who isn't a lover of sleep.
We talk it through. I ask Rowan (7) to help me put the littler ones down for
naptime. Once the baby (Aurora) is looking sleepy, we head down to
somebody's berth (mine or theirs, whichever is more comfy seeming on the
day), and snuggle up together with books, a movie, whatever. I nurse the
baby, and let Kestrel "twitch" (he seems to need to toss and turn a certain
amount). Eventually, Aurora goes to sleep, and by then, Kes has settled down
enough to cuddle more (he likes having an arm or leg around him, almost like
human swaddling). I breathe with him, then breathe to slow down, and he
usually is out in 10 minutes or so. Then Rowan can either get up and go have
private time (which he utterly treasures), or he will have gone to sleep
himself. Kes hates sleeping if Rowan's already up, and Rowan sees that Kes
needs the help, so he helps me with naptime as his choice.
So... if we've had a nap, bedtime is a non-issue. Dinner, movie or stories,
brushing teeth, pajamas, and another story/movie/episode/music, whatever,
while I put the baby down in my bed. Then I get up, and escort the boys to
their bed, tuck them in, and listen to whatever they want to say. We often
try to talk about "the good stuff", to go to sleep on a good note.
I don't think we've ever discussed "naptime" or "bedtime" as arbitrary;
they're just sort of the rhythm in which things happen. After dinner comes
entertainment of some form, after that comes teeth brushing, blah blah blah.
It's our pattern. If the boys are particularly excited about a movie, we set
up one of the laptops so they can watch in bed, and inevitably they fall
asleep. About half the time, Jason (DH) sleeps with them, and that seems to
regulate them a whole lot. He goes to bed way after they do, but if they've
agreed that it's their turn for Papa, they trust that he'll show up, and not
only do they both sleep better, they sleep longer too.
I may be lucky simply because we live on a boat, and the whole "exhausted by
water" thing is a definite phenomenon. They sleep better here than they did
on land. They also get a ton more exercise than most kids, just by virtue of
the fact that the car is a good 300 yards from the boat.
>
>
> anyone else been there with such a young kid? ideas on what might be going
> on for him? ways to support whatever it is while making it workable for the
> rest of the family? a new way to look at the situation that niether of us
> are seeing? (my kids were much older when we came to unschooling).
I find rhythms and patterns to be really helpful. I also find discussing my
own rhythms and patterns with them to be useful. We had a big talk about
siesta a while back; my normal body clock includes getting up at sunrise,
working like mad, and then taking a nap between 3 and 4, and getting up and
going again. I'm happiest that way. I let them know when I'd like to be
napping, so it's not like napping is a thing I'm making them do.
Fun aside... a few weeks ago, Aurora got sick and was up all night, so I was
seriously dragging. We all laid down for naptime together, and Kestrel and I
fell asleep almost instantly, but Aurora was up and running and just really
not interested in sleeping *at all*. So Rowan picked her up, and brought her
upstairs (it's about three steps away from the room I'm in) and played with
her for about 20 minutes, so I could get some rest.
So my suggestions all revolve around sleep as a family pattern, lots of
cosleeping in various combinations, and depowering it as much as possible.
--
~~L!
s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
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