My first freakout
[email protected]
Hi everybody--
We've been deschooling with our 7-year-old son Logan about a month now, and it's been going great so far. He seems so happy! And I haven't been more relaxed since--well, since before he started kindergarten. Until I started seriously researching unschooling, I didn't even know there was such a thing as "radical unschooling". I thought the term just meant that you didn't use a curriculum. But the more I read about it, the more I was drawn to the idea of being respectful of children's choices. I think I've always been respectful of my kids, but I could see some areas where I could let go of some control. So we've been easing into it. But if you had asked me when we started what my sticking points might be, I would have told you food and bedtime, and sure enough.....
Right now, here on the east coast, it's 12:43 am, and Logan 's still awake in his room playing the Wii, and I'm having a problem with it. We were never real sticklers about bedtime, but generally around 9 or 9:30 either me or my husband would say, "It's about that time, kiddo," and send him to start the whole pajamas/teeth routine, and then when he was ready for bed, one of us would go read with him and then lie down with him. Usually by 10 at the latest, he'd be in dreamland, and the rest of us could settle down and have big-person time (which includes my 16-year-old daughter Chelsea, and very often a not-appropriate for small children TV show).
Enter unschooling. With my husband's dubious, reluctant semi-blessing, we stopped nudging him to bed at a predetermined time. I explained to him that children should have the same opportunity as adults to go to sleep when they feel tired, rather than at some arbitrary time. I told him that I was SURE that if Logan was left to his own devices, he'd probably be asleep by around 10 anyway. (Yeah, just like I was SURE he'd do his math workbook for fun.)
Well, here we are a month later, and Logan has been steadily staying up later and later at night, and sleeping later and later in the mornings. This morning he slept until 11. Tonight was the first night that he actually opted to stay up later than everyone else. At 11:30, I went to his room (where he had already been playing the Wii for about an hour--until then he had been in the living room with us), and I said, "Logan, I'm tired and I'm getting ready for bed, so if you want me to read to you and lie down with you, you need to get ready for bed, too."
He didn't even look up from his game. "No thanks, I don't need you to lie down with me." This was a first. I thought my husband was going to stay up a while longer but he said he was going to bed, too.
"Logan," I tried again, "the whole family's going to bed."
"Well, I'm not."
I had no idea what to say to this. Here I am, an experienced 46-year-old who has already raised three kids and I am completel y out of my element here. I didn't wan t to lay down the law, or manipulate or coerce him into doing what I wanted, and yet, I wanted him to go to bed! Instead I just said, "Okay, well, just turn down the sound on your game, please," which sounds wimpy and ineffectual and completely out of character for me even as I write it! If my three older kids could have heard me they would have said, "Who are you and what have you done with our mother??"
I climbed into bed (our room is right next to his) and heard my husband check in on him. Before Ely (my husband) even said a word, I heard Logan say somewhat defensively, "Mom said I could stay up."
My husband, to his credit, just sighed and said, "Well, she's the boss," and repeated the request to turn down the sound. He came to bed and judiciously avoided saying "I told you so" but I know he was thinking it. He was snoring within minutes while I lay awake listening to the sounds coming from Logan's room. He occasionally talked back softly to his game or to himself. I strained to hear the sound of his light switch or the TV being turned off so I could relax and go to sleep. I started imagining horrific scenarios: what if his lampshade was knocked askew and started to smolder? What if he fell asleep with the Wii thingie and the cord wrapped around his neck? What kind of mother am I to go to bed before my 7-year-old?? Finally I couldn't take it anymore, and tiptoed out of bed. I put my ear against his door--still awake. Then I came out here, and started this e-mail.
Okay, I just checked him again. Now it's 1:25, and his room is quiet, and there's no light coming from under his door. So he finally put himself to sleep.
Could somebody please explain to me how any of this is progress? How can it possibly be a positive, healthy thing for a little kid to be up at 1 in the morning playing video games? How could this be good for our family if it's causing resentment (albeit unspoken thus far) from my husband, and me lying awake with knots in my stomach? If there's one thing I've always been sure of, it's my mothering style , but tonight I was on unfamiliar, uncomfortable ground and I didn't like it one bit. I'm thinking this might be where a lot of folks get off. Right now I'm thinking, I'm not sure I can hack this; maybe we could just unschool academics and go back to the status quo for everything else. Because really, the only thing "broken" was school. Bedtime was never a problem! At first I could see how it was all connected, but now it's late, I'm exhausted, I'm freaking out, I'm hormonal, and I no longer remember how "no arbitrary bedtimes" has anything to do with unschooling.
Is this all part of the process, or is everybody's process different? I can't believe I thought this was going to be easy. And actually, the waking hours HAVE been easy, blissful. It's just this bedtime thing. And food. God, don't even get me started on food.
Why am I having such an issue??
Help?
TIA to anybody who made it through all my late night angst,
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We've been deschooling with our 7-year-old son Logan about a month now, and it's been going great so far. He seems so happy! And I haven't been more relaxed since--well, since before he started kindergarten. Until I started seriously researching unschooling, I didn't even know there was such a thing as "radical unschooling". I thought the term just meant that you didn't use a curriculum. But the more I read about it, the more I was drawn to the idea of being respectful of children's choices. I think I've always been respectful of my kids, but I could see some areas where I could let go of some control. So we've been easing into it. But if you had asked me when we started what my sticking points might be, I would have told you food and bedtime, and sure enough.....
Right now, here on the east coast, it's 12:43 am, and Logan 's still awake in his room playing the Wii, and I'm having a problem with it. We were never real sticklers about bedtime, but generally around 9 or 9:30 either me or my husband would say, "It's about that time, kiddo," and send him to start the whole pajamas/teeth routine, and then when he was ready for bed, one of us would go read with him and then lie down with him. Usually by 10 at the latest, he'd be in dreamland, and the rest of us could settle down and have big-person time (which includes my 16-year-old daughter Chelsea, and very often a not-appropriate for small children TV show).
Enter unschooling. With my husband's dubious, reluctant semi-blessing, we stopped nudging him to bed at a predetermined time. I explained to him that children should have the same opportunity as adults to go to sleep when they feel tired, rather than at some arbitrary time. I told him that I was SURE that if Logan was left to his own devices, he'd probably be asleep by around 10 anyway. (Yeah, just like I was SURE he'd do his math workbook for fun.)
Well, here we are a month later, and Logan has been steadily staying up later and later at night, and sleeping later and later in the mornings. This morning he slept until 11. Tonight was the first night that he actually opted to stay up later than everyone else. At 11:30, I went to his room (where he had already been playing the Wii for about an hour--until then he had been in the living room with us), and I said, "Logan, I'm tired and I'm getting ready for bed, so if you want me to read to you and lie down with you, you need to get ready for bed, too."
He didn't even look up from his game. "No thanks, I don't need you to lie down with me." This was a first. I thought my husband was going to stay up a while longer but he said he was going to bed, too.
"Logan," I tried again, "the whole family's going to bed."
"Well, I'm not."
I had no idea what to say to this. Here I am, an experienced 46-year-old who has already raised three kids and I am completel y out of my element here. I didn't wan t to lay down the law, or manipulate or coerce him into doing what I wanted, and yet, I wanted him to go to bed! Instead I just said, "Okay, well, just turn down the sound on your game, please," which sounds wimpy and ineffectual and completely out of character for me even as I write it! If my three older kids could have heard me they would have said, "Who are you and what have you done with our mother??"
I climbed into bed (our room is right next to his) and heard my husband check in on him. Before Ely (my husband) even said a word, I heard Logan say somewhat defensively, "Mom said I could stay up."
My husband, to his credit, just sighed and said, "Well, she's the boss," and repeated the request to turn down the sound. He came to bed and judiciously avoided saying "I told you so" but I know he was thinking it. He was snoring within minutes while I lay awake listening to the sounds coming from Logan's room. He occasionally talked back softly to his game or to himself. I strained to hear the sound of his light switch or the TV being turned off so I could relax and go to sleep. I started imagining horrific scenarios: what if his lampshade was knocked askew and started to smolder? What if he fell asleep with the Wii thingie and the cord wrapped around his neck? What kind of mother am I to go to bed before my 7-year-old?? Finally I couldn't take it anymore, and tiptoed out of bed. I put my ear against his door--still awake. Then I came out here, and started this e-mail.
Okay, I just checked him again. Now it's 1:25, and his room is quiet, and there's no light coming from under his door. So he finally put himself to sleep.
Could somebody please explain to me how any of this is progress? How can it possibly be a positive, healthy thing for a little kid to be up at 1 in the morning playing video games? How could this be good for our family if it's causing resentment (albeit unspoken thus far) from my husband, and me lying awake with knots in my stomach? If there's one thing I've always been sure of, it's my mothering style , but tonight I was on unfamiliar, uncomfortable ground and I didn't like it one bit. I'm thinking this might be where a lot of folks get off. Right now I'm thinking, I'm not sure I can hack this; maybe we could just unschool academics and go back to the status quo for everything else. Because really, the only thing "broken" was school. Bedtime was never a problem! At first I could see how it was all connected, but now it's late, I'm exhausted, I'm freaking out, I'm hormonal, and I no longer remember how "no arbitrary bedtimes" has anything to do with unschooling.
Is this all part of the process, or is everybody's process different? I can't believe I thought this was going to be easy. And actually, the waking hours HAVE been easy, blissful. It's just this bedtime thing. And food. God, don't even get me started on food.
Why am I having such an issue??
Help?
TIA to anybody who made it through all my late night angst,
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>>> Usually by 10 at the latest, he'd be in dreamland, and the rest ofus could settle down and have big-person time (which includes my
16-year-old daughter Chelsea, and very often a not-appropriate for
small children TV show). <<<<
This is pretty much what we do... about 10 or 11 we are usually all
asleep. Except big person time ... that's not a staple with Karl being
an only child and we all co-sleep.
>>>> Enter unschooling. With my husband's dubious, reluctantsemi-blessing, we stopped nudging him to bed at a predetermined time. I
explained to him that children should have the same opportunity as
adults to go to sleep when they feel tired, rather than at some
arbitrary time. I told him that I was SURE that if Logan was left to
his own devices, he'd probably be asleep by around 10 anyway. (Yeah,
just like I was SURE he'd do his math workbook for fun.) <<<<
Karl used to stay up really late. As late as I like to stay up
sometimes, it's a stretch night after night for me. I guess I'm
getting older and I can't seem to stay up as many hours as I used to be
able to? Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. So from around 4 years
old, Karl has been the one to occasionally be the last down to bed.
But that's rare these days. He gets freaked out with the quiet in the
house and comes to bed. I'm sure once he gets older, he will probably
be up more often past when me and Brian are.
>>>> Well, here we are a month later, and Logan has been steadilystaying up later and later at night, and sleeping later and later in
the mornings. This morning he slept until 11. <<<<
Pretty typical wake up for us is anywhere from 8:30 to 11 or sometimes
12 noon. Since we're not usually on schedule with other people, that's
fine with me. Brian doesn't like it as much, and as long as he gets
peaceful sleep and respectful quiet from me and Karl, it's not a
problem unless he gets overtired and angry in the moment about it.
He's not as easygoing about it as I am. Even when we get to bed
earlier (9 or 10) Karl may sleep in until 10 or 11. He has always
slept a lot. I on the other hand can't seem to sleep in. I'll be 45
this year.
And so the roundup on that picture is if *I* can't schedule my sleep to
match someone else's, how is it that Karl can? Brian's sleep
fluctuates considerably depending on how late he decides to stay up and
how many days in a row he does that, and since his work schedule has
slowed down 2 hours a day, he can afford to do that whereas before
there was no way he could because it wasn't enough sleep.
Brian used to work 3rd shift hours and that's something I've never been
able to do. So his sleep changes according to work. A child who stays
at home doesn't have the same sleep needs as school kids.
>>>> He didn't even look up from his game. "No thanks, I don't need youto lie down with me." This was a first. <<<<
A person who has never had a choice about their own sleep schedule will
eventually figure out to do that.
>>>> At first I could see how it was all connected, but now it's late,I'm exhausted, I'm freaking out, I'm hormonal, and I no longer remember
how "no arbitrary bedtimes" has anything to do with unschooling. <<<<
It has to do with the parent deciding which choices are ok for their
children to make. The benefit is that the more decisions a child is
able to make, the better they become at making decisions. I consider
it part of Karl's things to learn. The more children are able to see
their world in terms of available options to choose from, the more
they're able to safely experience with the parent's facilitation while
they're living with their parents, rather than waiting to experience
these things after they move out when the risk posed by making wrong
decisions is much greater.
>>>> Is this all part of the process, or is everybody's processdifferent? I can't believe I thought this was going to be easy. And
actually, the waking hours HAVE been easy, blissful. It's just this
bedtime thing. And food. God, don't even get me started on food. <<<<
The process is different in small ways but not overall. Becoming aware
of how we are controlling to children is a painful process. It's hard
to admit to and difficult to see our way out of. I know I can be very
controlling about really small things. For instance for a while I saw
messes instead of learning in progress and that took some time for me
to figure ways to think through.
Food is a matter of many small and big choices, which are largely
momentary in nature. Our bodies need different things at different
times. People who learned to eat with a lot of input about what others
thought they should eat haven't experienced that the way a person has
who has more choice about what to eat. I haven't begun to experience
it until recently. Karl has had that all his life, and he seems not to
go crazy for any one particular food for any length of time.
Mostly Karl eats a pretty wide variety of foods. He just ate pretzels
and carrots with ranch dressing for dip and before that he had 2 fried
eggs and had me to make him 2 more fried eggs. Earlier today he had an
apple and popcorn and milk. This is not a big eating day. The other
day, for one meal he had a Dutchman Special Plate at the Dutch Plate
which consists of 2 pancakes, at least 2 .. probably 3 scrambled eggs,
2 sausage patties with Coke to drink and he gave us the home fries that
came with his meal (we couldn't finish them after eating our food). He
has had some occasions when organic blue tortilla chips were all he
would eat all day. That's been seldom though. Those chips are a big
favorite of his. He almost always has yogurt or eggs and some other
things as well.
>>>> Why am I having such an issue?? <<<<You're having a hard time making the transition to giving more choices
where before you used to make those particular decisions. It's a bit
scary to consider gradually allowing our children more choices in areas
we're used to thinking of as our areas. In addition to that, we live
in a culture that doesn't tend to agree with parents being their
children's partners in decision making to much of a degree. I love it
and wouldn't want to trade it for being a conventional parent. It's
not everybody's cup of tea though.
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-Could somebody please explain to me how any of this is progress?
How can it possibly be a positive, healthy thing for a little kid to
be up at 1 in the morning playing video games? -=-
It's healther than the freakout the mom's having. <g>
I don't know why that post took so long to show up. I'm pretty sure
I clicked "approve" early in the day, so I'm sorry suggestions were
hours in coming. It's a mystery.
It's not progress if your goal is that he will sleep on schedule in
the absence of a schedule.
If your goal is learning and happiness, it might be considered progress.
If your goal is providing a situation in which he can (for the first
time, maybe) REALLY begin to think about what tired feels like and
what sleep is biologically for, then it's big progress.
Sleeping on a schedule, like eating on a schedule, can have
advantages, but learning to sense the needs of one's own body isn't
one of them.
-=-Okay, I just checked him again. Now it's 1:25, and his room is
quiet, and there's no light coming from under his door. So he finally
put himself to sleep. -=-
This stuck out like a beacon to me:
"he finally put himself to sleep"
Vets put dogs to sleep. What he did was decide to go to bed.
Parents don't "put kids to sleep," they put them in the bed (and maybe
tell them to go to sleep or else). So rather than thinking that
sleep is a thing that is done to someone by another person (or by
oneself), if you think of it as relaxing because one is tired and
sleeping has become more desireable than playing a game or reading or
talking, then it's a good and natural and positive thing! Some kids
go to sleep unhappy and resentful and afraid because they weren't
tired enough to want to sleep and the parents have threatened them.
It's hard to go to sleep and be afraid at the same time. It's better
to go to sleep thinking "I love my life; my mom's so nice" than "I
can't wait to be gone from this house, and my mom is mean." (Not that
those are the only two choices, but I'm contrasting some of my kids'
experiences with my own as a kid.)
-=-I'm not sure I can hack this; maybe we could just unschool
academics and go back to the status quo for everything else. Because
really, the only thing "broken" was school. Bedtime was never a
problem! -=-
If it wasn't a problem and he wasn't unhappy, I'm not sure why you
changed it. And I'm not sure why you changed it suddenly and
extremely instead of gradually and smilingly and sweetly.
-=-Is this all part of the process, or is everybody's process
different? I can't believe I thought this was going to be easy. And
actually, the waking hours HAVE been easy, blissful. It's just this
bedtime thing. And food. God, don't even get me started on food. -=-
Different parents have different feelings and fears and prejudices.
If "don't even get me started on food" is where you're at right now,
then don't even start on food. Unschooling isn't a club or a
religion. What's discussed on this list and a few others involves
seeing the boundaries and constructs that have more to do with control
and school requirements than with real health and learning. Maybe
that's advanced unschooling and beginning unschooling is all you need
right now. It's better to do what you understand and gradually come
to understand more, than to make changes you do NOT understand or
believe in. Nobody's asking anyone to do any such thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How can it possibly be a positive, healthy thing for a little kid to
be up at 1 in the morning playing video games? -=-
It's healther than the freakout the mom's having. <g>
I don't know why that post took so long to show up. I'm pretty sure
I clicked "approve" early in the day, so I'm sorry suggestions were
hours in coming. It's a mystery.
It's not progress if your goal is that he will sleep on schedule in
the absence of a schedule.
If your goal is learning and happiness, it might be considered progress.
If your goal is providing a situation in which he can (for the first
time, maybe) REALLY begin to think about what tired feels like and
what sleep is biologically for, then it's big progress.
Sleeping on a schedule, like eating on a schedule, can have
advantages, but learning to sense the needs of one's own body isn't
one of them.
-=-Okay, I just checked him again. Now it's 1:25, and his room is
quiet, and there's no light coming from under his door. So he finally
put himself to sleep. -=-
This stuck out like a beacon to me:
"he finally put himself to sleep"
Vets put dogs to sleep. What he did was decide to go to bed.
Parents don't "put kids to sleep," they put them in the bed (and maybe
tell them to go to sleep or else). So rather than thinking that
sleep is a thing that is done to someone by another person (or by
oneself), if you think of it as relaxing because one is tired and
sleeping has become more desireable than playing a game or reading or
talking, then it's a good and natural and positive thing! Some kids
go to sleep unhappy and resentful and afraid because they weren't
tired enough to want to sleep and the parents have threatened them.
It's hard to go to sleep and be afraid at the same time. It's better
to go to sleep thinking "I love my life; my mom's so nice" than "I
can't wait to be gone from this house, and my mom is mean." (Not that
those are the only two choices, but I'm contrasting some of my kids'
experiences with my own as a kid.)
-=-I'm not sure I can hack this; maybe we could just unschool
academics and go back to the status quo for everything else. Because
really, the only thing "broken" was school. Bedtime was never a
problem! -=-
If it wasn't a problem and he wasn't unhappy, I'm not sure why you
changed it. And I'm not sure why you changed it suddenly and
extremely instead of gradually and smilingly and sweetly.
-=-Is this all part of the process, or is everybody's process
different? I can't believe I thought this was going to be easy. And
actually, the waking hours HAVE been easy, blissful. It's just this
bedtime thing. And food. God, don't even get me started on food. -=-
Different parents have different feelings and fears and prejudices.
If "don't even get me started on food" is where you're at right now,
then don't even start on food. Unschooling isn't a club or a
religion. What's discussed on this list and a few others involves
seeing the boundaries and constructs that have more to do with control
and school requirements than with real health and learning. Maybe
that's advanced unschooling and beginning unschooling is all you need
right now. It's better to do what you understand and gradually come
to understand more, than to make changes you do NOT understand or
believe in. Nobody's asking anyone to do any such thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> It has to do with the parent deciding which choices are ok for theirIt's really cool too, to start early. If you start in on unschooling
> children to make. The benefit is that the more decisions a child is
> able to make, the better they become at making decisions.
when your kids are already teens or tweens, they'll have a harder time
with learning to make decisions and choices. The things they'll be
making choices on might be bigger than when they go to sleep, and if
they have to wait until adulthood to make those choices, the things will
be even bigger.
Letting a little kid stay up quietly in his own room until he's ready to
sleep is such an easy way to make that step towards making big decisions
like who he's going to have sex with and where and wether or not he's
going to take up smoking. If both parent and child can trust that the
child will fall asleep when he's tired, eventually that trust, and that
relationship built on it, will work for those big decisions too.
Marina DeLuca-Howard
-=-Could somebody please explain to me how any of this is progress?
I am sorry you are finding this night owl thing a problem. I personally
marked it as milestone with my two older boys. My thirteen year old started
at about age seven or so to stay up reading or playing on his own. It
marked an end to co-sleeping and his requests to have a parental arm around
him until he fell asleep. As a toddler I felt obligated to stay up with
him, as he once crawled into the washing machine. I woke up to the sounds
of him screaming "help, I tuck", once and then realized it was better to
drink coffee and plan to be up late. Sleeping and eating are physiological
needs. I can't really control either.
My fearful nine year old son, who is worried about being alone has been
staying up this last week until all hours watching anime and we are
celebrating! My husband was concerned about our middle
child's "co-dependency"--fear of burglars, spiders, and other familiar
children's fears.
Ds has been making his own snacks, too. If you are worried about fires--get
a detector in his room or remove the lamp you worry will be the cause of
this fire! A kitchen fire alarm helps with fears, too. If your child
snacks leave a snack shelf or drawer full of his favs. or let him put one
together for himself if he likes!
If you are truly worried about strangulation invest in wireless remotes!
Last night Martin made Pilsbury crescent rolls (with some help from his
thirteen year old brother, possibly). My dh smelled them and trekked down
to the kitchen. It was 1 am and we were asleep, as was the six year old.
The oven was off and dh snagged the last roll. The warm oven and last roll
being the only evidence left that someone was late night baking.
More progress... the fighting between siblings is down as well. My thirteen
is willing to hang out with his younger brother more. In that respect they
have both matured. At night when the world is quiet, suddenly, sharing is
easier! The neighbours are not so happy with chair noises, and stomping up
and down stairs(we own an attached house in a large city) but we are working
on our kids considering the needs of others. I have proposed a move out of
the city where they would have more room to explore and make noise without
upsetting neighbours. So far it isn't going over well, but a solution will
present itself.
What are you really worried about? Is it disappointment over the choices
being made or physical safety?
Marina
--
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am sorry you are finding this night owl thing a problem. I personally
marked it as milestone with my two older boys. My thirteen year old started
at about age seven or so to stay up reading or playing on his own. It
marked an end to co-sleeping and his requests to have a parental arm around
him until he fell asleep. As a toddler I felt obligated to stay up with
him, as he once crawled into the washing machine. I woke up to the sounds
of him screaming "help, I tuck", once and then realized it was better to
drink coffee and plan to be up late. Sleeping and eating are physiological
needs. I can't really control either.
My fearful nine year old son, who is worried about being alone has been
staying up this last week until all hours watching anime and we are
celebrating! My husband was concerned about our middle
child's "co-dependency"--fear of burglars, spiders, and other familiar
children's fears.
Ds has been making his own snacks, too. If you are worried about fires--get
a detector in his room or remove the lamp you worry will be the cause of
this fire! A kitchen fire alarm helps with fears, too. If your child
snacks leave a snack shelf or drawer full of his favs. or let him put one
together for himself if he likes!
If you are truly worried about strangulation invest in wireless remotes!
Last night Martin made Pilsbury crescent rolls (with some help from his
thirteen year old brother, possibly). My dh smelled them and trekked down
to the kitchen. It was 1 am and we were asleep, as was the six year old.
The oven was off and dh snagged the last roll. The warm oven and last roll
being the only evidence left that someone was late night baking.
More progress... the fighting between siblings is down as well. My thirteen
is willing to hang out with his younger brother more. In that respect they
have both matured. At night when the world is quiet, suddenly, sharing is
easier! The neighbours are not so happy with chair noises, and stomping up
and down stairs(we own an attached house in a large city) but we are working
on our kids considering the needs of others. I have proposed a move out of
the city where they would have more room to explore and make noise without
upsetting neighbours. So far it isn't going over well, but a solution will
present itself.
What are you really worried about? Is it disappointment over the choices
being made or physical safety?
Marina
--
Life is always happening
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Letting a little kid stay up quietly in his own room until he's
ready to
sleep is such an easy way to make that step towards making big decisions
like who he's going to have sex with and where and wether or not he's
going to take up smoking.-=-
Marty has sex, and he also smokes occasionally, I recently learned.
He doesn't own his own cigarettes, but it was said sometimes if he's
out with smokers, he might smoke one. He's 20 years old.
I have been a 20 year old, and have known lots of them (pretty much
everyone here might be picturing a few dozen or hundred or thousand 20
year olds now).
Those who had sex just to do it, and smoked just to do it, were often
kids whose thoughts include things like "finally" or "it's about time"
or "my mom would hate this" (thought with gleeful satisfaction or
"...but screw her"). I have sat around with, and had sex with, and
married people who, in a quiet moment, told heartbreaking stories of
parental control and punitive relationships.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ready to
sleep is such an easy way to make that step towards making big decisions
like who he's going to have sex with and where and wether or not he's
going to take up smoking.-=-
Marty has sex, and he also smokes occasionally, I recently learned.
He doesn't own his own cigarettes, but it was said sometimes if he's
out with smokers, he might smoke one. He's 20 years old.
I have been a 20 year old, and have known lots of them (pretty much
everyone here might be picturing a few dozen or hundred or thousand 20
year olds now).
Those who had sex just to do it, and smoked just to do it, were often
kids whose thoughts include things like "finally" or "it's about time"
or "my mom would hate this" (thought with gleeful satisfaction or
"...but screw her"). I have sat around with, and had sex with, and
married people who, in a quiet moment, told heartbreaking stories of
parental control and punitive relationships.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
I read this post and had a couple of thoughts.
The first is that one month is not very long for deschooling even someone as
young 7 who can't have been in school all that many years. It especially is
not very long for a parent to deschool and change the thinking and emotional
reactions of a lifetime.
<<<< "Logan," I tried again, "the whole family's going to bed."
"Well, I'm not."
I had no idea what to say to this. >>>>
I think the best thing to say is "Do you need anything?" followed by "good
night darling, see you in the morning."
It sounds to me like you are mourning the loss of your baby, the sweet
dependency that fades away with independence. You sound sad that you have
lost those sweet times of lying next to him while he drifted to sleep. Maybe
you are sad that you don't feel needed anymore.
Increasing independence is part of gowing up. He feels safe in his home. His
need of you can and will and should change as he matures. You can still
connect with him in different ways - make sure he has snacks and drinks for
his late night computer activity, ask him about his games, be interested in
the characters and processes.
It may be that he would like to be read to. Jayn (9) certainly does and it
comes in waves. However if you tie "read to you" with "get ready for bed" he
may be perceiving that his choice is between staying up to do his own gaming
or getting the pleasure of you reading to him.
As time goes on there *will* be things he wants to do during the daytime,
perhaps places to go and people to see that will be his impetus to get up
early. Does he get to use his gaming system during the day freely?
<<<Before Ely (my husband) even said a word, I heard Logan say
somewhat defensively, "Mom said I could stay up."
My husband, to his credit, just sighed and said, "Well, she's the boss,"
cramming in as much freedom and gaming as he can with the expectation that
this is too good to last.
There is another idea lurking in here that you might want to investigate.
Your husband refers to you as "the boss". Is this the role you want?
If he has trouble remembering to turn the sound down, maybe some headphones
would be helpful. We are very lucky in our apartment that sound doesn't
travel much. Once the bedroom door is closed sleepers really can't hear
normal sound levels in the living room.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
The first is that one month is not very long for deschooling even someone as
young 7 who can't have been in school all that many years. It especially is
not very long for a parent to deschool and change the thinking and emotional
reactions of a lifetime.
<<<< "Logan," I tried again, "the whole family's going to bed."
"Well, I'm not."
I had no idea what to say to this. >>>>
I think the best thing to say is "Do you need anything?" followed by "good
night darling, see you in the morning."
It sounds to me like you are mourning the loss of your baby, the sweet
dependency that fades away with independence. You sound sad that you have
lost those sweet times of lying next to him while he drifted to sleep. Maybe
you are sad that you don't feel needed anymore.
Increasing independence is part of gowing up. He feels safe in his home. His
need of you can and will and should change as he matures. You can still
connect with him in different ways - make sure he has snacks and drinks for
his late night computer activity, ask him about his games, be interested in
the characters and processes.
It may be that he would like to be read to. Jayn (9) certainly does and it
comes in waves. However if you tie "read to you" with "get ready for bed" he
may be perceiving that his choice is between staying up to do his own gaming
or getting the pleasure of you reading to him.
As time goes on there *will* be things he wants to do during the daytime,
perhaps places to go and people to see that will be his impetus to get up
early. Does he get to use his gaming system during the day freely?
<<<Before Ely (my husband) even said a word, I heard Logan say
somewhat defensively, "Mom said I could stay up."
My husband, to his credit, just sighed and said, "Well, she's the boss,"
>>>>If he is still defensive, there is still deschooling to be done. He might be
cramming in as much freedom and gaming as he can with the expectation that
this is too good to last.
There is another idea lurking in here that you might want to investigate.
Your husband refers to you as "the boss". Is this the role you want?
If he has trouble remembering to turn the sound down, maybe some headphones
would be helpful. We are very lucky in our apartment that sound doesn't
travel much. Once the bedroom door is closed sleepers really can't hear
normal sound levels in the living room.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
[email protected]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:55:43 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] My first freakout
<<It's healther than the freakout the mom's having. <g>
<I don't know why that post took so long to show up. I'm pretty <sure
<I clicked "approve" early in the day, so I'm sorry suggestions <were
<hours in coming. It's a mystery.
I just chalked it up to the Mercury retrograde, Sandra. ;) Actually, I was kind of relieved it wasn't there yesterday morning, because sending a hysterical e-mail at 2 in the morning is kind of like drunk dialing. Everything seemed better yesterday in the light of day, after I'd had time to think about it.
<It's not progress if your goal is that he will sleep on schedule in
<the absence of a schedule.
<If your goal is learning and happiness, it might be considered <progress.
<If your goal is providing a situation in which he can (for the first
<time, maybe) REALLY begin to think about what tired feels like <and
<what sleep is biologically for, then it's big progress.
I'm not much of a schedule-oriented person, but I am a health-oriented person. I have this idea that it's somehow healthier (mentally more than physically) to get up at a "reasonable" hour, so one is not "sleeping the day away ." Put in quotes because that is a direct quote from my childhood. My own inclination is to stay up late and sleep late in the morning, but when I do, I feel like a lazy slug. Hmmmm....maybe this is not about Logan at all, but more about me. I've been fighting my body clock my whole life (and fighting other people about my body clock). I should know better than anyone that it's a losing battle. Maybe he's destined to be a night owl, too?
<<This stuck out like a beacon to me:
<"he finally put himself to sleep"
<Vets put dogs to sleep. What he did was decide to go to bed.
<Parents don't "put kids to sleep," they put them in the bed (and <maybe
<tell them to go to sleep or else). So rather than thinking that
<sleep is a thing that is done to someone by another person (or <by
<oneself), if you think of it as relaxing because one is tired and
<sleeping has become more desireable than playing a game or <reading or
<talking, then it's a good and natural and positive thing! Some <kids
<go to sleep unhappy and resentful and afraid because they <weren't
<tired enough to want to sleep and the parents have threatened <them.
<It's hard to go to sleep and be afraid at the same time. It's <better
<to go to sleep thinking "I love my life; my mom's so nice" than "I
<can't wait to be gone from this house, and my mom is <mean." (Not that
<those are the only two choices, but I'm contrasting some of my <kids'
<experiences with my own as a kid.)
When I reread my e-mail, I knew you were going to call me on that! Guilty as charged. And the cra zy thing is, I hate to be "put to sleep", as when I doze on the couch (which is the coziest, most wonderful feeling in the world), and my husband says, "Denise, go to bed." I hate that! I imagine that's what it feels like for a kid. I need to stop thinking in those terms.
<<-=-I'm not sure I can hack this; maybe we could just unschool
<academics and go back to the status quo for everything else. <Because
<really, the only thing "broken" was school. Bedtime was never a < problem! -=-
<If it wasn't a problem and he wasn't unhappy, I'm not sure why <you
<changed it. And I'm not sure why you changed it suddenly and
<extremely instead of gradually and smilingly and sweetly.
It really did kind of start with me just saying "yes" more, as in "Mom, can I stay up a little later, since I don't have to get up for school in the morning?" Well, sure, why not? Before I knew it, over the course of the month, it just evolved until nobody was mentioning bedtime at all anymore. I was okay with it, then still okay, still okay, still okay, until the other night when he stayed up later than us. That was apparently my "not okay" button.
-=-Is this all part of the process, or is everybody's process
different? I can't believe I thought this was going to be easy. And
actually, the waking hours HAVE been easy, blissful. It's just this
bedtime thing. And food. God, don't even get me started on food. -=-
<<Different parents have different feelings and fears and <prejudices.
<If "don't even get me started on food" is where you're at right <now,
<then don't even start on food. Unschooling isn't a club or a
<religion.
I tend to go glom onto new, exciting ideas and just run with them. I've been reading so much about unschooling this past month, and everything I read just resounded with a huge, inner YES! YES, I want to do whole-life unschooling. YES, I want for my family what I've been reading on everybody's blogs--a joyful, relaxed lifestyle, and happy, healthy, confident, independent kids. Actually, we're a pretty happy family to begin with. But the things I've been reading awakened in me a vision for something even better.
For some reason, the other night I ran smack into a big, fat inner NO, and I think I'm beginning to understand why. I see that there are several other responses, so thank you all in advance! I'll get to them soon, but right now Logan needs a sandwich. :)
For now, freakout has been averted, and I'm still on the train.
Denise
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<It has to do with the parent deciding which choices are ok for their
<children to make. The benefit is that the more decisions a child is
<able to make, the better they become at making decisions. I consider
<it part of Karl's things to learn. The more children are able to see
<their world in terms of available options to choose from, the more
<they're able to safely experience with the parent's facilitation while
<they're living with their parents, rather than waiting to experience
<these things after they move out when the risk posed by making wrong
<decisions is much greater.
Katherine, your whole post was helpful to me, but the quote above really drove home for me why I was drawn to unschooling in the first place. The last couple days have been a lesson on keeping my eye focused on the big picture, rather than getting lost in the confusion and uncertainty of the moment. (Hopefully confusion and uncertainty will lessen as time goes by).
Thank you!
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
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<children to make. The benefit is that the more decisions a child is
<able to make, the better they become at making decisions. I consider
<it part of Karl's things to learn. The more children are able to see
<their world in terms of available options to choose from, the more
<they're able to safely experience with the parent's facilitation while
<they're living with their parents, rather than waiting to experience
<these things after they move out when the risk posed by making wrong
<decisions is much greater.
Katherine, your whole post was helpful to me, but the quote above really drove home for me why I was drawn to unschooling in the first place. The last couple days have been a lesson on keeping my eye focused on the big picture, rather than getting lost in the confusion and uncertainty of the moment. (Hopefully confusion and uncertainty will lessen as time goes by).
Thank you!
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<It's really cool too, to start early. If you start in on unschooling
<when your kids are already teens or tweens, they'll have a harder time
<with learning to make decisions and choices. The things they'll be
<making choices on might be bigger than when they go to sleep, and if
<they have to wait until adulthood to make those choices, the things will
<be even bigger.
<Letting a little kid stay up quietly in his own room until he's ready to
<sleep is such an easy way to make that step towards making big decisions
<like who he's going to have sex with and where and wether or not he's
<going to take up smoking. If both parent and child can trust that the
<child will fall asleep when he's tired, eventually that trust, and that
<relationship built on it, will work for those big decisions too.
I think I have "13" in my head as the magic age when kids are able to start making their own decisions. I have let go of parental control with my older kids much earlier than my more mainstream-type friends. For instance, the other night was my daughter's first prom, and she had no curfew. She ended up staying out all night with her girlfriends, which was fine with us. We know them all, and she kept us apprised of her whereabouts throughout the night. (Our last text from her at 4:30 am said, "Still alive, at the diner.") When I mentioned this to my friends at work the next day, they were horrified, as in, W hat?! Your daughter's only 16 and you let her stay out all night?? Are you nuts?? But the thing is, we trust her. She has a good head on her shoulders, and she has shown us that over and over again, so setting an arbitrary curfew would be disrespectful and would not reflect the reality of our relationship.
What this whole bedtime thing with Logan has forced me to think about is, why NOT start earlier? Why do I trust teenagers to learn things for themselves, but have trouble letting go when my kids are little? Wouldn't starting earlier make the whole process smoother and easier, more natural? Much to think about, Jenny. Thank you!
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<when your kids are already teens or tweens, they'll have a harder time
<with learning to make decisions and choices. The things they'll be
<making choices on might be bigger than when they go to sleep, and if
<they have to wait until adulthood to make those choices, the things will
<be even bigger.
<Letting a little kid stay up quietly in his own room until he's ready to
<sleep is such an easy way to make that step towards making big decisions
<like who he's going to have sex with and where and wether or not he's
<going to take up smoking. If both parent and child can trust that the
<child will fall asleep when he's tired, eventually that trust, and that
<relationship built on it, will work for those big decisions too.
I think I have "13" in my head as the magic age when kids are able to start making their own decisions. I have let go of parental control with my older kids much earlier than my more mainstream-type friends. For instance, the other night was my daughter's first prom, and she had no curfew. She ended up staying out all night with her girlfriends, which was fine with us. We know them all, and she kept us apprised of her whereabouts throughout the night. (Our last text from her at 4:30 am said, "Still alive, at the diner.") When I mentioned this to my friends at work the next day, they were horrified, as in, W hat?! Your daughter's only 16 and you let her stay out all night?? Are you nuts?? But the thing is, we trust her. She has a good head on her shoulders, and she has shown us that over and over again, so setting an arbitrary curfew would be disrespectful and would not reflect the reality of our relationship.
What this whole bedtime thing with Logan has forced me to think about is, why NOT start earlier? Why do I trust teenagers to learn things for themselves, but have trouble letting go when my kids are little? Wouldn't starting earlier make the whole process smoother and easier, more natural? Much to think about, Jenny. Thank you!
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<What are you really worried about? Is it disappointment over the choices
<being made or physical safety?
If I'm really, really honest with myself, it's neither of those things. It's the fear that my giving up control will result in total anarchy--he'll stay up all night, sleep all day, never bathe, never brush his teeth, never eat another fruit or vegetable as long as he lives--and it'll all be my fault.
Intellectually, I know that's a silly, irrational fear, but there it is. Actually, last night was as close to anarchy as we've gotten, and it was....kind of nice, LOL. Because of his sleep being so out of whack, he conked out on the couch at 5 p.m. He hasn't taken a late afternoon nap in years. I tried to wake him up at dinnertime. No luck. My husband walked in the door at 7, took one look at Logan, and said, "Uh oh. He's going to be up all night." At 9 p.m. Logan finally woke up. I was feeling surprisingly zen about the whole thing. I decided to just go with the flow. I offered him dinner, but instead he wanted to make himself a peanut butter sandwich. Sure, why not? We all hung out and watched TV for a while. At 11, he decided he wanted to try an online RPG for kids he had seen a commercial for, and worked on registering as a new user all by himself. At one point, he needed help, so I went over and helped him and got him started on the game. It was really cool! (Free Realms if anybody's interested.) I sat and watched him play for a while. At around midnight, my husband announced he was going to bed, and I was getting pretty tired myself. I told Logan I was not comfortable with him being online by himself late at night, and asked if he wanted me to lie down with him, to help him go to sleep. He said he wanted to sleep with us. Well, he's been out of our bed for three years, but I invoked my new mantra--sure, why not?
After about 15 minutes of tossing and turning and generally bopping around, he announced that he couldn't sleep and left the room. I heard him playing with his cars in his room. After a while I realized I couldn't sleep either, so I (Logan is reading over my shoulder and says to put that Daddy was snoring REALLY, REALLY loud)
Okay, long story short--Logan and I ended up having a lovely snuggle on the couch at 2:00 am and he fell asleep in my arms while I read my book. I woke up still on the couch this morning and carried him into his room. Somehow he was up for the day 3 hours later!
The point of this whole ramble is that the "worst case scenario" happened and it was really not a big deal. The world didn't come to an end. In fact, we started the new day feeling very close and happy, all because I'm learning to change my perception about what's really going on.
Thank you, Marina, for helping me examine my fears!
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<being made or physical safety?
If I'm really, really honest with myself, it's neither of those things. It's the fear that my giving up control will result in total anarchy--he'll stay up all night, sleep all day, never bathe, never brush his teeth, never eat another fruit or vegetable as long as he lives--and it'll all be my fault.
Intellectually, I know that's a silly, irrational fear, but there it is. Actually, last night was as close to anarchy as we've gotten, and it was....kind of nice, LOL. Because of his sleep being so out of whack, he conked out on the couch at 5 p.m. He hasn't taken a late afternoon nap in years. I tried to wake him up at dinnertime. No luck. My husband walked in the door at 7, took one look at Logan, and said, "Uh oh. He's going to be up all night." At 9 p.m. Logan finally woke up. I was feeling surprisingly zen about the whole thing. I decided to just go with the flow. I offered him dinner, but instead he wanted to make himself a peanut butter sandwich. Sure, why not? We all hung out and watched TV for a while. At 11, he decided he wanted to try an online RPG for kids he had seen a commercial for, and worked on registering as a new user all by himself. At one point, he needed help, so I went over and helped him and got him started on the game. It was really cool! (Free Realms if anybody's interested.) I sat and watched him play for a while. At around midnight, my husband announced he was going to bed, and I was getting pretty tired myself. I told Logan I was not comfortable with him being online by himself late at night, and asked if he wanted me to lie down with him, to help him go to sleep. He said he wanted to sleep with us. Well, he's been out of our bed for three years, but I invoked my new mantra--sure, why not?
After about 15 minutes of tossing and turning and generally bopping around, he announced that he couldn't sleep and left the room. I heard him playing with his cars in his room. After a while I realized I couldn't sleep either, so I (Logan is reading over my shoulder and says to put that Daddy was snoring REALLY, REALLY loud)
Okay, long story short--Logan and I ended up having a lovely snuggle on the couch at 2:00 am and he fell asleep in my arms while I read my book. I woke up still on the couch this morning and carried him into his room. Somehow he was up for the day 3 hours later!
The point of this whole ramble is that the "worst case scenario" happened and it was really not a big deal. The world didn't come to an end. In fact, we started the new day feeling very close and happy, all because I'm learning to change my perception about what's really going on.
Thank you, Marina, for helping me examine my fears!
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If I'm really, really honest with myself, it's neither of those
things. It's the fear that my giving up control will result in total
anarchy--he'll stay up all night, sleep all day, never bathe, never
brush his teeth, never eat another fruit or vegetable as long as he
lives--and it'll all be my fault. -=-
This might be fun for you to read, then:
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
things. It's the fear that my giving up control will result in total
anarchy--he'll stay up all night, sleep all day, never bathe, never
brush his teeth, never eat another fruit or vegetable as long as he
lives--and it'll all be my fault. -=-
This might be fun for you to read, then:
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/15/2009 3:09 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
watch tv, talk on the phone, surf the internet, and slice up fish.
-pam
> This might be fun for you to read, then:i-filet ---- sounds like some smart high-tech gadget that lets you
> http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
>
watch tv, talk on the phone, surf the internet, and slice up fish.
-pam
[email protected]
Oh my God! I'm not sure what's more horrifying--that there are so many, or that my post so closely echoes them. I laughed at first and then I was just....appalled. Do me a favor--if you post mine, at least put that I recognized how ridiculous the fear was even as I was writing about it. ;)
Seriously, thanks for further opening my eyes. I'm on a pretty steep learning curve these past few days.
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
Seriously, thanks for further opening my eyes. I'm on a pretty steep learning curve these past few days.
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 2:09:39 PM GMT -09:00 Alaska
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] My first freakout
-=-If I'm really, really honest with myself, it's neither of those
things. It's the fear that my giving up control will result in total
anarchy--he'll stay up all night, sleep all day, never bathe, never
brush his teeth, never eat another fruit or vegetable as long as he
lives--and it'll all be my fault. -=-
This might be fun for you to read, then:
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Do me a favor--if you post mine, at least put that I recognized how
ridiculous the fear was even as I was writing about it. ;) =-
Yours won't go there, because you weren't assuring us that we were
wrong as could possibly be.
Anyway, I think it's too long for people to read all of anymore!
iFilet... does sound like Bluetooth Pocket Fisherman add-on of some
sort.
http://sandradodd.com.com/ if i let (but take out the spaces)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ridiculous the fear was even as I was writing about it. ;) =-
Yours won't go there, because you weren't assuring us that we were
wrong as could possibly be.
Anyway, I think it's too long for people to read all of anymore!
iFilet... does sound like Bluetooth Pocket Fisherman add-on of some
sort.
http://sandradodd.com.com/ if i let (but take out the spaces)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<I think the best thing to say is "Do you need anything?" followed <by "good night darling, see you in the morning."
<It sounds to me like you are mourning the loss of your baby, the <sweet
<dependency that fades away with independence. You sound <sad that you have
<lost those sweet times of lying next to him while he drifted to <sleep. Maybe
<you are sad that you don't feel needed anymore.
That could definitely be a part of it. I'm usually good at embracing the next stage, whatever it may bring, but I'm always aware in the back of my mind that Logan is my last baby.
<It may be that he would like to be read to. Jayn (9) certainly <does and it
<comes in waves. However if you tie "read to you" with "get <ready for bed" he
<may be perceiving that his choice is between staying up to do <his own gaming
<or getting the pleasure of you reading to him.
Yeah, that was a crappy choice I gave him. I was trying to manipulate him into bed. Not my finest hour.
<As time goes on there *will* be things he wants to do during the <daytime,
<perhaps places to go and people to see that will be his impetus <to get up
<early. Does he get to use his gaming system during the day <freely?
You're right! He got up bright and early this morning, much to my surprise. Yes, he has unrestricted access to his video games.
<Before Ely (my husband) even said a word, I heard Logan say
<somewhat defensively, "Mom said I could stay up."
<My husband, to his credit, just sighed and said, "Well, she's the <boss,"
<If he is still defensive, there is still deschooling to be done. He <might be
<cramming in as much freedom and gaming as he can with the <expectation that
<this is too good to last.
<There is another idea lurking in here that you might want to <investigate.
<Your husband refers to you as "the boss". Is this the role you <want?
Well, it beats being married to a guy who insists that HE'S the boss. Been there, done that. ;) Seriously, it is sometimes an issue, but a fter 14 years together, our dynamic is pretty firmly entrenched, and most of the time it works for us.
I definitely get a bit of a "this is too good to be true" vibe for Logan, which actually explains a lot. Today, he asked to play outside in the rain and when I said yes , he actually did a double-take, and said, "Really??" Maybe we'll be on our road to being deschooled when the dou ble-takes stop.
Thanks, Robyn!
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<It sounds to me like you are mourning the loss of your baby, the <sweet
<dependency that fades away with independence. You sound <sad that you have
<lost those sweet times of lying next to him while he drifted to <sleep. Maybe
<you are sad that you don't feel needed anymore.
That could definitely be a part of it. I'm usually good at embracing the next stage, whatever it may bring, but I'm always aware in the back of my mind that Logan is my last baby.
<It may be that he would like to be read to. Jayn (9) certainly <does and it
<comes in waves. However if you tie "read to you" with "get <ready for bed" he
<may be perceiving that his choice is between staying up to do <his own gaming
<or getting the pleasure of you reading to him.
Yeah, that was a crappy choice I gave him. I was trying to manipulate him into bed. Not my finest hour.
<As time goes on there *will* be things he wants to do during the <daytime,
<perhaps places to go and people to see that will be his impetus <to get up
<early. Does he get to use his gaming system during the day <freely?
You're right! He got up bright and early this morning, much to my surprise. Yes, he has unrestricted access to his video games.
<Before Ely (my husband) even said a word, I heard Logan say
<somewhat defensively, "Mom said I could stay up."
<My husband, to his credit, just sighed and said, "Well, she's the <boss,"
<If he is still defensive, there is still deschooling to be done. He <might be
<cramming in as much freedom and gaming as he can with the <expectation that
<this is too good to last.
<There is another idea lurking in here that you might want to <investigate.
<Your husband refers to you as "the boss". Is this the role you <want?
Well, it beats being married to a guy who insists that HE'S the boss. Been there, done that. ;) Seriously, it is sometimes an issue, but a fter 14 years together, our dynamic is pretty firmly entrenched, and most of the time it works for us.
I definitely get a bit of a "this is too good to be true" vibe for Logan, which actually explains a lot. Today, he asked to play outside in the rain and when I said yes , he actually did a double-take, and said, "Really??" Maybe we'll be on our road to being deschooled when the dou ble-takes stop.
Thanks, Robyn!
Denise
www.smartingusup.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-<There is another idea lurking in here that you might want to
<investigate.
<Your husband refers to you as "the boss". Is this the role you <want?
-=-
Keith is the boss of cars and tools and money, generally, and I'm the
boss of kids and social obligations and clothes. Kind of. Generally.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<investigate.
<Your husband refers to you as "the boss". Is this the role you <want?
-=-
Keith is the boss of cars and tools and money, generally, and I'm the
boss of kids and social obligations and clothes. Kind of. Generally.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katy Jennings
<<<<<If I'm really, really honest with myself, it's neither of those things. It's the fear that my giving up control will result in total anarchy--he'll stay up all night, sleep all day, never bathe, never brush his teeth, never eat another fruit or vegetable as long as he lives--and it'll all be my fault. >>>>>
Richard hasn't always showered as often as I would like, it is not that he refuses or doesn't want to, he just doesn't want to take the time out of whatever he is doing. I usually remind him gently when he is not involved in something, or ask him to when he gets a chance, but he forgets. It is ok.
But now he is 13.5, and there is a girl....
He has started showering a lot more often, I noticed the other day that he brushes his teeth a lot more thoroughly, changes his clothes daily...
Nothing stays the same, even if your son does all of the things you fear, it probably won't last.
And about the staying up all night, there are tons of jobs that require someone to stay up all night, most pay a little extra for the trouble of being there during odd hours. I work a couple of days a week, 5:30 pm to 7:00 am. If he were to continue to be a night owl he would be fine.
Katy J.
Richard hasn't always showered as often as I would like, it is not that he refuses or doesn't want to, he just doesn't want to take the time out of whatever he is doing. I usually remind him gently when he is not involved in something, or ask him to when he gets a chance, but he forgets. It is ok.
But now he is 13.5, and there is a girl....
He has started showering a lot more often, I noticed the other day that he brushes his teeth a lot more thoroughly, changes his clothes daily...
Nothing stays the same, even if your son does all of the things you fear, it probably won't last.
And about the staying up all night, there are tons of jobs that require someone to stay up all night, most pay a little extra for the trouble of being there during odd hours. I work a couple of days a week, 5:30 pm to 7:00 am. If he were to continue to be a night owl he would be fine.
Katy J.
Sandra Dodd
-=-And about the staying up all night, there are tons of jobs that
require someone to stay up all night, most pay a little extra for the
trouble of being there during odd hours. I work a couple of days a
week, 5:30 pm to 7:00 am. If he were to continue to be a night owl he
would be fine.-=-
Excellent reminder, Katy.
All my kids have worked some early and some late hours, sometimes at
the same job. On a big day during Christmas rush at the mall, Holly
was at work until about 4:15 a.m. Marty used to go in at 6:30 a.m.
when he worked at the grocery store. Kirby's regular hours are 2:00
to 11:00 or so. It's 9:21 pm friday at the moment and all three of
them are at their various jobs.
None of them have had trouble planning ahead and getting to work on
time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
require someone to stay up all night, most pay a little extra for the
trouble of being there during odd hours. I work a couple of days a
week, 5:30 pm to 7:00 am. If he were to continue to be a night owl he
would be fine.-=-
Excellent reminder, Katy.
All my kids have worked some early and some late hours, sometimes at
the same job. On a big day during Christmas rush at the mall, Holly
was at work until about 4:15 a.m. Marty used to go in at 6:30 a.m.
when he worked at the grocery store. Kirby's regular hours are 2:00
to 11:00 or so. It's 9:21 pm friday at the moment and all three of
them are at their various jobs.
None of them have had trouble planning ahead and getting to work on
time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Katy Jennings" <kjennings95@...> wrote:
You're thinking is still in a dynamic of "control or lack of control." Rather than think in terms of who has the power, try thinking in terms of a team, or a partnership. You don't want to abandon your child by removing yourself from the picture entirely. He may still need you to help him recognize his body's signals and help him make transitions. My kids, even though they are 14 and 10, still like it that I put the toothpaste on the toothbrush for them, and we brush teeth together. It's usually a pretty fun time to connect before we go to sleep.
My daughter doesn't love to stop and bathe, but she dislikes tangled hair even more, and her hair gets prone to matting unless it's clean--so she chooses to bathe.
The biggest mistake I made in transitioning to radical unschooling was that I didn't transition. I thought I needed to make a pronouncement about bedtimes and food. I really didn't. I now, many years later, see that I just needed to make MY shifts in seeing how to support them and facilitate their lives--and then do it.
My son asked me, soon after we "stopped doing bedtimes" to please be more present with bedtimes. I had an idea that he "needed" to make these decisions for himself--but that wasn't true for him at all. It was too big and scary, and he stopped wanting to go to bed--probably because he didn't want to face the lights-out transition alone. 20/20 hindsight! LOL I really didn't get that there might be fear and/or abandonment involved--that insight came much later.
We now have a way that works well for us that everyone goes to bed with the last adult (that can stay awake--LOL). It is more important to both my kids to have that help and companionship at bedtime than it is to stay up late. It also supports their desires to do things earlier, since they are still both sleeping about 11 hours. If they go to bed much later than me, the next day is mostly gone when they wake up (as far as doing things with other people).
Joanna
>My son is almost 14, there is a girl, and I could tell the same story. <g>
> <<<<<If I'm really, really honest with myself, it's neither of those things. It's the fear that my giving up control will result in total anarchy--he'll stay up all night, sleep all day, never bathe, never brush his teeth, never eat another fruit or vegetable as long as he lives--and it'll all be my fault. >>>>>
>
> Richard hasn't always showered as often as I would like, it is not that he refuses or doesn't want to, he just doesn't want to take the time out of whatever he is doing.
> But now he is 13.5, and there is a girl....
> He has started showering a lot more often, I noticed the other day that he brushes his teeth a lot more thoroughly, changes his clothes daily...
You're thinking is still in a dynamic of "control or lack of control." Rather than think in terms of who has the power, try thinking in terms of a team, or a partnership. You don't want to abandon your child by removing yourself from the picture entirely. He may still need you to help him recognize his body's signals and help him make transitions. My kids, even though they are 14 and 10, still like it that I put the toothpaste on the toothbrush for them, and we brush teeth together. It's usually a pretty fun time to connect before we go to sleep.
My daughter doesn't love to stop and bathe, but she dislikes tangled hair even more, and her hair gets prone to matting unless it's clean--so she chooses to bathe.
The biggest mistake I made in transitioning to radical unschooling was that I didn't transition. I thought I needed to make a pronouncement about bedtimes and food. I really didn't. I now, many years later, see that I just needed to make MY shifts in seeing how to support them and facilitate their lives--and then do it.
My son asked me, soon after we "stopped doing bedtimes" to please be more present with bedtimes. I had an idea that he "needed" to make these decisions for himself--but that wasn't true for him at all. It was too big and scary, and he stopped wanting to go to bed--probably because he didn't want to face the lights-out transition alone. 20/20 hindsight! LOL I really didn't get that there might be fear and/or abandonment involved--that insight came much later.
We now have a way that works well for us that everyone goes to bed with the last adult (that can stay awake--LOL). It is more important to both my kids to have that help and companionship at bedtime than it is to stay up late. It also supports their desires to do things earlier, since they are still both sleeping about 11 hours. If they go to bed much later than me, the next day is mostly gone when they wake up (as far as doing things with other people).
Joanna