Threats
Kathryn
Threatening is the latest issue im my home. Mia (7) and Jude (4) threaten each other when things don't go their way. It's essentially an alternative to bribery, or perhaps the same thing? They threaten each other with violence, or agressive behaviour, such as "I'm going to smash all your precious thigs in yuour room if you don't . . . " They even threaten self-harm, like, "If you don't do . . . I'm going to get a knife and stab myself." It's like they are trying to outdo each other with the level of devastation they can cause; or in this case, threaten. Unfortunately, it always ends in violence between the two. Today it got to the point that Jude was hysterical. I had to pick him up and take him to another room, where I closed the door on him and I; just to keep him from lashing out at Mia. He hit his breaking point with Mia who had been dictating how it was going to be, and he lost it. He lashed out at me -- both physically and verbally, because I was stopping him from 'breaking precious things in Mia's room'. When my kids hit that hysterical stage, I know that there is no negotiation possible at that time. I just stay with them until it has passed. But I tell you, I really don't know exactly what it is I am supposed to do during that time! I know Jude is too young to be able to express himself in a way that doesn't hurt others, but I also know I cannot allow him to hit/kick me in his frustration!
Am I expecting them to problem-solve at too young an age? Neither of them really seem to want to work with the other, just be the 'dictator' so to speak.
Looking foward to your replies,
Kathryn
Am I expecting them to problem-solve at too young an age? Neither of them really seem to want to work with the other, just be the 'dictator' so to speak.
Looking foward to your replies,
Kathryn
Sandra Dodd
-=- It's essentially an alternative to bribery, or perhaps the same
thing? They threaten each other with violence, or agressive behaviour,
such as "I'm going to smash all your precious thigs in yuour room if
you don't . . . " They even threaten self-harm, like, "If you don't
do . . . I'm going to get a knife and stab myself.-=-
It's extortion. It's harrassment.
A friend of ours got grouchy because someone at his apartment complex
kept parking a sports car in two parking places instead of one. He
left a note that said if the person didn't start parking better, he
would break the windshield.
Not one of our brightest friends.
Threats like that are illegal. He was in trouble and could have been
thrown out of the apartment complex, or worse. He became profusely
apologetic.
-=-It's like they are trying to outdo each other with the level of
devastation they can cause; or in this case, threaten. Unfortunately,
it always ends in violence between the two. -=-
One thing you could do is sort of "aikido" it into a joke, by saying
"If you two don't stop making these threats, I'm going to throw rocks
at the moon," or "I'm going to fill the oven with jello" or "I'm going
to cut all my hair off and tattoo my head." If they laugh at yours
(which could easily be funnier than these examples), they might see to
laugh at their own.
On the other hand, you could just say it's not funny, because some
parents DO break or give away their children's things, or ground the
kids, or hit them, and so it makes you sad to hear them make light of
those things because you're trying to have a peaceful house.
-=-Today it got to the point that Jude was hysterical. I had to pick
him up and take him to another room, where I closed the door on him
and I; just to keep him from lashing out at Mia. He hit his breaking
point with Mia who had been dictating how it was going to be, and he
lost it. He lashed out at me -- both physically and verbally, because
I was stopping him from 'breaking precious things in Mia's room'. When
my kids hit that hysterical stage, I know that there is no negotiation
possible at that time. I just stay with them until it has passed. -=-
A better thing would be to stay with them to make sure it never
begins. No child should have to "reach a breaking point" about the
behavior of a sibling. If you're leaving them alone to work it out,
that's a mistake.
-=- I know Jude is too young to be able to express himself in a way
that doesn't hurt others, but I also know I cannot allow him to hit/
kick me in his frustration! -=-
Keep him from being frustrated.
-=-Am I expecting them to problem-solve at too young an age?-=-
Absolutely. I have a 17 and 20 year old and I don't "expect them to
problem-solve" with each other. Marty was being short tempered with
Holly a month or two back. I asked him on the side what was up, and
he said she was just really bugging him lately. Holly said "Marty's
being hateful." I watched them the next few chances I got, and Holly
WAS being awful. "She was starting it," so to speak. I talked to
them both separately on the side again, at a natural moment, not
hauling one out. But when it was in the midst of it, I just said
"Holly, that's harsh" or "I don't see why you're being that way about
it." I didn't dictate what to do. I indicated that she did seem to
be about to cause an exchange none of us needed.
-=-Neither of them really seem to want to work with the other, just be
the 'dictator' so to speak. -=-
They don't need to be "working with the other." They've very young.
Be with one of them or both of them all the time. The more you're
with them now, the less you'll need to be with them later.
http://sandradodd.com/howto
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
Neither of them really seem to want to work with the other, just be
the 'dictator' so to speak. -=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thing? They threaten each other with violence, or agressive behaviour,
such as "I'm going to smash all your precious thigs in yuour room if
you don't . . . " They even threaten self-harm, like, "If you don't
do . . . I'm going to get a knife and stab myself.-=-
It's extortion. It's harrassment.
A friend of ours got grouchy because someone at his apartment complex
kept parking a sports car in two parking places instead of one. He
left a note that said if the person didn't start parking better, he
would break the windshield.
Not one of our brightest friends.
Threats like that are illegal. He was in trouble and could have been
thrown out of the apartment complex, or worse. He became profusely
apologetic.
-=-It's like they are trying to outdo each other with the level of
devastation they can cause; or in this case, threaten. Unfortunately,
it always ends in violence between the two. -=-
One thing you could do is sort of "aikido" it into a joke, by saying
"If you two don't stop making these threats, I'm going to throw rocks
at the moon," or "I'm going to fill the oven with jello" or "I'm going
to cut all my hair off and tattoo my head." If they laugh at yours
(which could easily be funnier than these examples), they might see to
laugh at their own.
On the other hand, you could just say it's not funny, because some
parents DO break or give away their children's things, or ground the
kids, or hit them, and so it makes you sad to hear them make light of
those things because you're trying to have a peaceful house.
-=-Today it got to the point that Jude was hysterical. I had to pick
him up and take him to another room, where I closed the door on him
and I; just to keep him from lashing out at Mia. He hit his breaking
point with Mia who had been dictating how it was going to be, and he
lost it. He lashed out at me -- both physically and verbally, because
I was stopping him from 'breaking precious things in Mia's room'. When
my kids hit that hysterical stage, I know that there is no negotiation
possible at that time. I just stay with them until it has passed. -=-
A better thing would be to stay with them to make sure it never
begins. No child should have to "reach a breaking point" about the
behavior of a sibling. If you're leaving them alone to work it out,
that's a mistake.
-=- I know Jude is too young to be able to express himself in a way
that doesn't hurt others, but I also know I cannot allow him to hit/
kick me in his frustration! -=-
Keep him from being frustrated.
-=-Am I expecting them to problem-solve at too young an age?-=-
Absolutely. I have a 17 and 20 year old and I don't "expect them to
problem-solve" with each other. Marty was being short tempered with
Holly a month or two back. I asked him on the side what was up, and
he said she was just really bugging him lately. Holly said "Marty's
being hateful." I watched them the next few chances I got, and Holly
WAS being awful. "She was starting it," so to speak. I talked to
them both separately on the side again, at a natural moment, not
hauling one out. But when it was in the midst of it, I just said
"Holly, that's harsh" or "I don't see why you're being that way about
it." I didn't dictate what to do. I indicated that she did seem to
be about to cause an exchange none of us needed.
-=-Neither of them really seem to want to work with the other, just be
the 'dictator' so to speak. -=-
They don't need to be "working with the other." They've very young.
Be with one of them or both of them all the time. The more you're
with them now, the less you'll need to be with them later.
http://sandradodd.com/howto
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
Neither of them really seem to want to work with the other, just be
the 'dictator' so to speak. -=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
It sounds like your kids are having power problems. When my kids are feeling powerless and specifically not heard, they will begin to threaten eachother. The threats are designed to cause fear in the other person, and the better they do it, the more fear is caused. LOL
I've noticed that my youngest will resort to that first because she is balancing her lack of physical, mental and even emotional power. When I hear this I intervene right away, because this is the kind of stuff that has always escalated and can't be worked out on their own--because if it's gotten to threats, there is someone who is not interested in working it out without help.
I remember the phase of, "I'm going to lick you," because my daughter figured out that that was the one that ALWAYS worked. Smart. ;-)
Kids will experiment with this stuff because it gives them power--something we always want to feel we have in a relationship. If the other one has tried to take it away, we find ways to take it back. I think it's very natural, but we can also step in and help them do it better.
If you start looking at it through the power lens, rather than through a personal lens, and help them with that perspective, you might be able to diffuse things a little more quickly, and help them. My daughter still believes every threat, until the second that I point out that her brother isn't serious ('cause he's not)--he's just trying to get her to listen, cooperate, etc. etc. and that's the only currency he feels like he has in the moment. I try to help them 1. hear eachother, and 2. negotiate without the emotional blackmail.
Sometimes it's a surprise to one person that the other was even feeling frustrated. They just aren't able to read all of eachothers signals, so they escalate things to get the others' attention--but then things fly out of control.
Maybe you can help them negotiate before the grease hits the fire.
Joanna
I've noticed that my youngest will resort to that first because she is balancing her lack of physical, mental and even emotional power. When I hear this I intervene right away, because this is the kind of stuff that has always escalated and can't be worked out on their own--because if it's gotten to threats, there is someone who is not interested in working it out without help.
I remember the phase of, "I'm going to lick you," because my daughter figured out that that was the one that ALWAYS worked. Smart. ;-)
Kids will experiment with this stuff because it gives them power--something we always want to feel we have in a relationship. If the other one has tried to take it away, we find ways to take it back. I think it's very natural, but we can also step in and help them do it better.
If you start looking at it through the power lens, rather than through a personal lens, and help them with that perspective, you might be able to diffuse things a little more quickly, and help them. My daughter still believes every threat, until the second that I point out that her brother isn't serious ('cause he's not)--he's just trying to get her to listen, cooperate, etc. etc. and that's the only currency he feels like he has in the moment. I try to help them 1. hear eachother, and 2. negotiate without the emotional blackmail.
Sometimes it's a surprise to one person that the other was even feeling frustrated. They just aren't able to read all of eachothers signals, so they escalate things to get the others' attention--but then things fly out of control.
Maybe you can help them negotiate before the grease hits the fire.
Joanna
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/13/2009 5:57 AM, Kathryn wrote:
too late. Probably he shouldn't be in her room at all if they are having
trouble getting along these days. Prevention is better than intervention
and early intervention is better than late reaction.
This sounds like a symptom of too much time together - not enough
separate mom-time or separate friend-time. Siblings need space from each
other - almost always more space than parents think they should need.
Provide LOTS of separate things for them to do - take one with you to
the grocery store and have FUN there.
I know you'll have reasons you can't give them more one-on-one time -
but find ways to squeeze it in, anyway.
Also - get out of the house to big spaces like beaches/parks. Even
fast-food play spaces are good. Children's museums are also awesome.
This is what animals do when they feel crowded in - when their territory
is invaded. The pose and threaten and eventually erupt into violence.
-pam
> Today it got to the point that Jude was hysterical. I had to pick him up and take him to another room, where I closed the door on him and I; just to keep him from lashing out at Mia. He hit his breaking point with Mia who had been dictating how it was going to be, and he lost it. He lashed out at me -- both physically and verbally, because I was stopping him fromHe was in her room? "It got to the point..." means you stepped in way
> 'breaking precious things in Mia's room'.
too late. Probably he shouldn't be in her room at all if they are having
trouble getting along these days. Prevention is better than intervention
and early intervention is better than late reaction.
This sounds like a symptom of too much time together - not enough
separate mom-time or separate friend-time. Siblings need space from each
other - almost always more space than parents think they should need.
Provide LOTS of separate things for them to do - take one with you to
the grocery store and have FUN there.
I know you'll have reasons you can't give them more one-on-one time -
but find ways to squeeze it in, anyway.
Also - get out of the house to big spaces like beaches/parks. Even
fast-food play spaces are good. Children's museums are also awesome.
This is what animals do when they feel crowded in - when their territory
is invaded. The pose and threaten and eventually erupt into violence.
-pam
[email protected]
>>>> Am I expecting them to problem-solve at too young an age? <<<<Yes. You're just getting into the ages where kids start thinking about
threats and getting their way through force. Karl threatens and he
doesn't even have a sibling. So he's dealing with an adult on it.
Just imagine (you probably don't have to imagine) if two children are
going at it like that, there isn't much experience at negotiating or
empathy for not being able to do what someone wants so the default is
probably to threaten the other without taking into account other
variables in the situation. They don't have a big picture. They have
their own picture with smatterings of other people and things they
might consider in that picture.
If your children ever threaten or try to use force on you, they can
have an adult who tells them the other variables that a sibling might
not be quite as well able to express. So that's not altogether a bad
thing, if a child threatens a parent who can clarify other factors,
kindly and matter of factly.
I would say that for some people, the ability to take other factors
into account developmentally goes past what we would typically call
childhood. When I got to late 20s ... 30 something... that's when I
was able to see other variables clearly and fairly quickly but even
there it depends. Nobody sees other areas in negotiating for what they
want perfectly.
And even when they do see, clarity still depends on good communication
from others. And quite a lot of people don't have good communication,
so factoring in what they can or can't do is often a matter of
deciphering the nonverbal, sometimes annoyingly so.
I think the frequency of things being so indecipherable has to do with
a strong passive/aggressive tendency in our culture due to exactly this
thing: never learning that there are many variables, many sides to
consider in any negotiation, and then seeing the way out of conflict.
People can learn to communicate kindly and clearly at the same time.
But I don't think it comes naturally where many passive aggressive
pockets exist.
Which is why I like shows such as Care Bears where kindness and empathy
is such a big emphasis. I'm glad Karl finds it as interesting as I do.
There are David the Gnome for similar problem solving ideas and Scooby
Doo. Those shows have a some good ideas (and we also sometimes like to
critique the ones that don't have ideas as good). The more experience
a person gets the more they see opportunities for empathy: like for the
character Ron in KimPossible. Maybe watch shows with your kids and
point out this stuff sometimes? Karl points it out to me in Care
Bears. I point it out to him about Ron, who is very likable and often
sweet himself so it's easy to think kindly of his not very super-power
self.
A lot of opportunities for learning about empathy and good
communication come out of shows and games, whether the shows were built
with those ideas in mind or not. And they're a chance to talk about
the issues surrounding threats and forcing what we want without
spotlighting individuals... our children who are just learning about
these things. *I* learn a lot of things about the same stuff by
watching with Karl. Brian has been watching Survivor, another good one
for critiquing all kinds of things (probably more interesting for older
kids though).
~Katherine
[email protected]
>>>> This sounds like a symptom of too much time together - not enoughseparate mom-time or separate friend-time. Siblings need space from each
other - almost always more space than parents think they should need.
<<<<
Karl talks about powers a lot because he has limits and can't help but
notice that. Threatening is a natural outgrowth of figuring out how to
negotiate what one wants.
Think of a cat: they love having gigantic spaces to themselves and
perching above other big animals (animals and people they're suspicious
of for instance). Having their own space is very important to cats,
more than dogs who usually attach more to their person than their home.
In the same way, most kids love having their own space and their own
stuff. I think it is pretty universal when people have more than one
kid, siblings are supposed to be convenient instant friends and share
everything. That's the way it was when I was growing up except the
part about instant friends wasn't true. It's an assumption or a very
fond dream which I don't think should turn into an expectation .
So here is unschooling which about parents sharing lots of options with
their children, yet siblings often come with the deal automatically as
non-optional. Give the kids space to choose their siblings as friends.
Don't assume a child take an automatic friend as a matter of course by
dent of being part of the same family. Facilitate friendship between
siblings to be a pleasant and freely chosen option, and if the kids
aren't best friends, don't make it a shame. If they aren't shamed
about it, the hope is that they can be friendly or civil to one another
when they're grown. Otherwise the kid who doesn't want to be forced to
be friends with siblings could end up being labeled as the family
problem, the fly in the ointment.
I was the middle child, and labeled as a trouble maker, so my siblings
felt that I was an enemy they grudgingly had to share living space
with. Now that we're all grown, my sisters won't say things about
begrudging space but they still talk about what a troublemaker I am. I
just think the perception is wildly unreal. My dad still says I rebel
against authority. Yet he says he's been seeing a real difference, a
change, in me lately. It would be nice not to be considered a family
problem. I still like lots of space and I have lots of space now. And
now that I"m an adult the fact that I like lots of space is not usually
cause to say I'm a problem.
~Katherine
Shannon Burton
Here's another thought about a young child saying "I want that," about
a toy he sees on TV, or something someone else has. What he wants
and needs might be to touch it, to see how heavy it is, how it works,
what it smells like.
What he wants, and needs, is to learn.
That's a great insight....one I needed to hear! Annalise is like an "I want" recording sometimes. Think I'll start takingher to the toy store a little more often!
Thanks!
shan
"There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth. So what the hell, leap." - Cynthia Heimel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a toy he sees on TV, or something someone else has. What he wants
and needs might be to touch it, to see how heavy it is, how it works,
what it smells like.
What he wants, and needs, is to learn.
That's a great insight....one I needed to hear! Annalise is like an "I want" recording sometimes. Think I'll start takingher to the toy store a little more often!
Thanks!
shan
"There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth. So what the hell, leap." - Cynthia Heimel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-That's a great insight....one I needed to hear! Annalise is like
an "I want" recording sometimes. Think I'll start takingher to the
toy store a little more often! =-
Don't take her just to window shop or spend a dollar, though. That
can be cruel.
Maybe thrift stores or garage sales or freecycle could help bring her
more things to mess around with.
Consider toys as educational supplies, though--as part of the cost of
homeschooling. Once in a while there's someone who chose unschooling
because a curriculum was $600 and unschooling didn't need the $600.
That doesn't mean unschooling should be considered to be "free."
There should still be money put toward providing things that will
provide see/hear/touch/smell/taste/think opportunities.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
an "I want" recording sometimes. Think I'll start takingher to the
toy store a little more often! =-
Don't take her just to window shop or spend a dollar, though. That
can be cruel.
Maybe thrift stores or garage sales or freecycle could help bring her
more things to mess around with.
Consider toys as educational supplies, though--as part of the cost of
homeschooling. Once in a while there's someone who chose unschooling
because a curriculum was $600 and unschooling didn't need the $600.
That doesn't mean unschooling should be considered to be "free."
There should still be money put toward providing things that will
provide see/hear/touch/smell/taste/think opportunities.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]