bigandlittle6

> Yes, exactly! I was thinking the same thing. There really are people
> that do really really bad things to others, some of the them parents
> doing really bad things to their kids. They are not good parents.
> Perhaps they are good typists or good baseball players, but certainly
> not good parents!
>
So who is to judge whether someone is a "good" typist? Is there such a thing? Whose job is it to "define" good? That goes with everything. We all have the same universal needs (health, safety, ease, fun, efficiency, trust, etc...). But the ways we go about meeting those needs are totally personal. A "good" typist to me, may mean someone who knows their alphabet so they can just get the job done. To someone else, "good" might mean typing 60 words a minute! Same goes with parenting choices, lifestyle choices and so one.

This good/bad right/wrong idea is fed to us as small children. We're taught static, one size fits all "morals" and are expected to swallow them. It's not how we're born to relate to other human beings. Tragically, we learn this type of judgmental, disconnecting language from our parents, who learned it from theirs... and so on. It's part of the "power over" paradigm that has created hierarchy, slavery and the abusive authoritarian thinking that is so prevalent in our culture and has been for thousands of years.

They way we were meant to live together actually goes a lot deeper than that. I'm guessing you feel really upset when you hear about the things some people do to their kids, would like to understand WHY on earth some people do things like this and you'd like it to stop. Same here. But we're not going to help it or stop it by trying to judge, blame or control anyone. What is lacking is connection and help for these people. They are in some kind of inner crisis, turmoil, illness, pain. I do not believe anyone just plain "enjoys" hurting others. No, not even Hitler, if you look at his upbringing you might understand better what I'm saying. A very serious case of unmet basic needs there.

How does a child respond inside when they do something someone else doesn't like, and they are called "bad" and "wrong"? Do you think this is the way to motivate a child?

No, the most helpful thing we can do is communicate with the child, and listen to the child to communicate (and use temporary *protective* not punitive use of force if anyone or anything is in immediate danger of being harmed, of course!). After the danger is past, we need to know what needs that child was trying to meet with that behavior. Attention? Love? Caring? Support? Connection? Safety? Understanding?

Well, that doesn't change when those children grow into adults. As adults, we have all those same needs. Why then, do we find it OK to isolate, abuse, ridicule, and abandon those adults who are behaving in ways we hate? Every single thing we do (and this applies to ALL people, "good" and "bad" as you say) is to meet a need. That is how we are wired, that is our nature. The challenge is trying to stay connected enough to puzzle out what the needs are, when the behavior is very challenging to deal with and we just want it to STOP!

I do love many things that this group offers. I truly believe in free learning, unschooling, consensual living, non coercive parenting, etc. etc. and I hear that talked about a lot here. But I feel a huge desire to see these things MERGE with NVC, with a more compassionate consciousness. I often hear people here "shoulding" each other, judging each other, saying there is a right way or a wrong way to go about something. When I hear this, I am confused, because aren't we parents on here striving to treat our children the opposite of this, through unschooling, free learning, etc.? Yet we come on here and "should" other adults? I am lost and confused and discouraged when I hear that.

Is it possible to broaden the purpose of this wonderful group to include include connecting and building each other up, with compassion and openness? I have heard more than one person tell me they are afraid to post here. Is this something we would like to change, together?

Sandra Dodd

-=So who is to judge whether someone is a "good" typist? Is there such
a thing? Whose job is it to "define" good? That goes with everything.-=-

This isn't good logic. It's not good thinking. When I need people to
sing with me for a performance (which I do need, in September) it will
do no good for me to ponder (even for one second) any nonsense like
"So who is to judge whether someone is a "good" singer? Is there such
a thing? Whose job is it to "define" good? "

Some people can sing MUCH better than others, and I need one-on-a-part
voices.

If I need a typist, I will know that there IS such a thing, and if I'm
paying someone to type, the criteria for "good" will be clear.

If I need someone to be logical and courteous, it won't be someone who
fills the list with nonsense and won't sign her name.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-= A "good" typist to me, may mean someone who knows their alphabet so
they can just get the job done. To someone else, "good" might mean
typing 60 words a minute! Same goes with parenting choices, lifestyle
choices and so one. -=-

There were people who "knew their alphabet" in 1800, and made a living
by alphabetizing things, probably. Doesn't mean they would know a
typewriter from a radio, or a computer from a microwave. Knowing the
alphabet has VERY little to do with data input.

If you want to call bad typing good, what purpose would that serve
beyond being argumentative and "out of the box"? (I'm thinking the
litter box now...)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brad Holcomb

bigandlittle6,

I can feel where you are with "everyone should do NVC", because I spent a
few months believing that myself, around 2004 or so. NVC felt so Right that
anyone who wasn't using it was doing themselves (and their kids, and their
spouse, and their community...the whole planet!) a disservice. It's leading
edge, so why not try to get everyone to see how Bad their language is, and
bring them up to speed? (oops, judgement).

I read several books about NVC and spent several months immersing myself in
the philosophy. I no longer think about NVC very much today because it was
one tool I needed for a brief time to kick-start me toward seeing my wife as
the most awesome partner on the planet, not as a human roadblock that seemed
to get in the way of my peace constantly. I was in complete Blame mode, and
in utter denial that I was in Blame mode. So trying to "use NVC" language
with my wife, who I labeled as "violent" or "jackal", just ended up getting
in my own way, because NVC is a toy for the ego. I'm not saying that NVC is
flawed or bad, just that it's a toy/tool that's no different than 1000's of
other tools out there--it can be used for many purposes no different than a
hammer or screwdriver. When the ego feels Right and Justified, it's very
easy for the ego to use NVC in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with
connection, and instead to Protect and Defend the ego self. For a while, I
think I had my wife convinced that if we could just "talk NVC", we could
have peace and connection. She indulged me for a while, and thankfully she
didn't completely walk out while I was tantruming and just wanting her to
change to please me. What I was asking was for her to "accept and support"
me, but only in the ways I judged as being Right, such as using NVC
language. It didn't matter that I perceived myself on many levels as a
damaged child with awful fundamentalist parents who "broke" me and that I
was in complete denial about how much I was blaming them instead of getting
over it already and just living a joyful life. In my mind, I had "forgiven"
my parents at age 18, so I didn't have any more "dad issues", dammit! :)

If you'll read here a while with an open (not through NVC belief lenses)
mind, you'll see that every single person who posts here is an aware
individual using the path of parenthood in their own unique way to live a
joyful connected life. And there is a TON to learn on this list. I've been
absorbing for a while, not posting much, and my family is more joyful as a
result--because I am. It starts and ends with me.

Thankfully, my wife hung in there while I tried so hard to convince her how
angry and unkind she was being to me, and how many of "my needs" were going
unmet, when I needed support so badly and she wouldn't spoon-feed it to me
the way I wanted. Today I giggle at her awesomeness and thank her daily for
staying around while I was in Dickhead Denial Mode. -=b.


--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< How does a child respond inside when they do something someone else
doesn't like, and they are called "bad" and "wrong"? Do you think this is
the way to motivate a child? >>>>

Oh COME ON....Has anyone here ever, in the whole history of this list,
recommended "call a child bad", and had any unschooler saying "yeah do
that!"

Ok - my brief take on this. This morning at something like 8am I was about
to go to bed (yes AM) and the last thing I did was check my email, and saw
that first post. In my case I really didn't have the time or energy to read
thoroughly, but unlike bigandlittle6, I also didn't have time to compose a
lengthy response. But I did go to bed chuckling to myself because I figured
I would get up to find exactly what I found from the list. I'm really sorry
that my sleep needs prevented me from participating in today's chat, btw.

So here's a clue: If you don't have time to read, you don't have time to
post....repeatedly.

I don't think NVC translates well at all to any kind of written format. The
best impression I have had of NVC is actually hearing some long time
unschoolers using it in a personally meaningful way with their own
children - by which I mean they made the words their own and focussed on the
listening part. The most useful tool I ever got from it was the phrase "Are
you willing to....?" asked as a genuine question with "no" being a real
possibility.

I don't think a person coming online and writing roughly "NVC says we
SHOULDN'T say SHOULD, and so everyone here (this means you) SHOULD use NVC"
is helping to promote NVC. Perhaps bigandlittle6 doesn't realize that the
message is coming across with such hypocrisy. Maybe direct the vitriol at
the author of the book Sandra found instead, if you must.

Maybe try being the change you want to see.

When I tried it some years ago in my bumbling way with James, with motives
not disimilar to Brad's in his story, I got rightly shut down very quickly
by my far more clear eyed husband. I saw the fault as being somewhere in my
intentions, rather than the formula. I don't know, maybe the fact that it is
a formula?...I like the idea "Seek first to understand, then be understood."
Maybe in finding understanding, ie listening (reading), the need to express
might fade away. That's what I've often found anyway.

When I read about NVC, I thought that a lot of it *should* ;) stay internal.
Identifying one's feelings, doing the mental process of saying "I feel
frustrated because..." , "I feel annoyed because...", "I feel scared
because...." and owning one's own part in the feelings, discovering one's
own needs, might work better by staying internal. That way a person isn't
bombarding the other person with words, especially important if the other
person is a child. Notice how so much of this is about identifying negative
feelings. So often "because" is followed by "you did something."

I guess no-one needs NVC to say "I feel happy because...." And yet, coming
full circle, one's happiness could be used as tool to motivate kids.

If a writer expresses themselves here in such a manner as to immediately
affront, offend and irritate their readers, any good within their message is
likely to be overlooked. Much of bigandlittle6's message for me was tainted
by her(?) condescending (my judgement) attitude. Which is unfortunate,
because in rereading her first post I found that we share a pet peeve.

<<<<I hear people every single day, confusing thoughts as feelings.>>>>

Without getting into the jargon about self-judgment, I agree. My observation
is when someone says "I feel *that*...." usually they have stepped out of
talking about their feelings and into thoughts. My challenge when I hear
this is to avoid the path to annoyance and wishing that person were a better
communicator or more self-aware, and instead to work to identify the feeling
they are unable to express clearly. Maybe that way my compassion would be
engaged instead of my judgement. Sometimes I have to work hard to engage my
compassion. When I feel frustrated or outraged by a story someone has told
especially when they are seeking help, often my best course is to stay
silent until I learn more and examine my own feelings.

It sure would be great if everyone expressed themselves well and
thoughtfully, and always said "I think" when expressing opinion and "I feel"
when really naming an emotion. It sure would be great if I were able to live
up to my own ideals. Not being able to identify one's own feelings can make
it harder to identify one's needs. There is the whole school of thought that
the shortcomings we notice, and react to emotionally, in others are likely
to be our own worst faults.

Well I'm going to continue trying to grow myself, to be a better mom, by
identifying my shortcomings and my denials about them, my emotional issues,
and not direct the precious little spare energy I have into changing others.
There's a bible passage about not worrying about the mote in someone else's
eye, but attending to the log in one's own....


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Jenny C

>>> So who is to judge whether someone is a "good" typist? Is there such
a thing? Whose job is it to "define" good? >>>

Well, the person who's trying to hire a typist would get to decide that.
Or the person doing the typing and wanting to improve their typing
skills would define that.

>>>That goes with everything. We all have the same universal needs
(health, safety, ease, fun, efficiency, trust, etc...). But the ways we
go about meeting those needs are totally personal. A "good" typist to
me, may mean someone who knows their alphabet so they can just get the
job done. To someone else, "good" might mean typing 60 words a minute!
Same goes with parenting choices, lifestyle choices and so one.>>>

This is exactly like saying that all choices one makes in parenting are
equally valid. If someone decides that spanking is a good way to
discipline their child, well, I guess that's great because who are we to
judge that to be wrong. A parent who can parent and raise great kids
without spanking would probably completely disagree with that assessment
because they KNOW that finding a way to parent without spanking is much
much better than spanking.


>>> This good/bad right/wrong idea is fed to us as small children. We're
taught static, one size fits all "morals" and are expected to swallow
them. >>>

I have a child who absolutely does not like socks with seams. She
thinks they are terrible and uncomfortable. She would find it terribly
wrong and bad if I forced her to wear socks with seams on them. Even as
a small child she would have felt that very profoundly. I didn't have
to feed her that information for her to get that there were better
things to wear on her feet.

>>>But we're not going to help it or stop it by trying to judge, blame
or control anyone. What is lacking is connection and help for these
people. They are in some kind of inner crisis, turmoil, illness, pain.
>>>

Blame and control are very different. Connection and help for people
that are not mindful or aware, can only go so far. People will do what
they will do, and only do it differently if they can see a reason to do
so, regardless of how much pain or crisis or turmoil or illnes and pain.

>>> I do love many things that this group offers. I truly believe in
free learning, unschooling, consensual living, non coercive parenting,
etc. etc. and I hear that talked about a lot here. But I feel a huge
desire to see these things MERGE with NVC, with a more compassionate
consciousness.>>>

I don't have that wish at all! I've heard some things that I like about
NVC and some things make me uncomfortable, like the usage of language.

>>>I often hear people here "shoulding" each other, judging each other,
saying there is a right way or a wrong way to go about something. >>>

I think that there are things that people should and shouldn't do, and
the same applies to my kids.

Sandra Dodd

-=-This good/bad right/wrong idea is fed to us as small children.
We're taught static, one size fits all "morals" and are expected to
swallow them. It's not how we're born to relate to other human beings.
Tragically, we learn this type of judgmental, disconnecting language
from our parents, who learned it from theirs... and so on. It's part
of the "power over" paradigm that has created hierarchy, slavery and
the abusive authoritarian thinking that is so prevalent in our culture
and has been for thousands of years. -=-

Whose term is "power over"?

That paragraph above doesn't reflect or describe the world as I've
seen it for 56 years. "Hierarchy" isn't a bad thing. Our house
belongs to us. If someone comes over and says "Get out, we want your
house," we can call police who will take them away. Lack of
hierarchy altogether wouldn't even make sense.

-=They way we were meant to live together actually goes a lot deeper
than that.-=-

"Meant" by whom?

-=- I'm guessing you feel really upset when you hear about the things
some people do to their kids, would like to understand WHY on earth
some people do things like this and you'd like it to stop. Same here.-=-

Guessing? I don't feel "really upset." I know there are parents who
aren't kind to their children. I know why, too. I'm not guessing.

-=- But we're not going to help it or stop it by trying to judge,
blame or control anyone. -=-

"We" aren't going to stop it. Many of us do help it every single
day, because moms come to this list and learn real, practical things
they can do with their children to have a happier and more peaceful
family.

This list isn't about judging, blaming or controlling. It's about
discussing questions and situations and finding sweet, joyful things
to do that make the children and the parents feel better.

-=-The challenge is trying to stay connected enough to puzzle out what
the needs are, when the behavior is very challenging to deal with and
we just want it to STOP!-=-

FIRST it can stop. Then they can figure out what their needs are.
Adults who have children do not have the luxury of behaving as
children themselves. If they've gotten old enough to reproduce and
haven't figured out how to make decent adult decisions, they need to
step it up and stop stalling, or their children will end up too needy
too.

-=- But I feel a huge desire to see these things MERGE with NVC, with
a more compassionate consciousness. -=-

What I know of NVC bugs the hell out of me, but I don't go hunting
them down and saying so. I let them be over wherever all they are,
teaching each other scripts and totally criticizing each other in
prescribed ways, and I stay where I am and do what I do. Someone on
that other end is trying to make a bunch of money. I'm not. My
family's really happy. I'm staying here. I don't want to MERGE with
anyone or anything outside my family.

-=- I often hear people here "shoulding" each other, judging each
other, saying there is a right way or a wrong way to go about
something. When I hear this, I am confused, because aren't we parents
on here striving to treat our children the opposite of this, through
unschooling, free learning, etc.? -=-

There are wrong ways to do things, but FIRST a person needs or should
or must know what he wants to do. If Marty wants to put the top on
his jeep, there are right things to do and wrong things to go about
it. If he wants help, there are considerations about how and when to
ask for help. If it's about to rain, he could ask with less tact or
consideration for other people's immediate activities than if he needs
help on a sunny day. He SHOULD be tactful. He should be
considerate. He should put the top on before it rains.

The assumption when people come to this list is that they want to
become better unschoolers. They tell us a story or ask a question,
and some people make suggestions. If you want X, you should not do
Y. If you want peace, you shouldn't hit. If you want to hike into
the mountains you should take water and sunscreen and wear leather
boots because of cactus and rocks.

It's supremely hypocritical to come and criticize the list because we
tell people (people who asked) what they might be doing differently or
better in order to unschool better.

Sandra










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vaughn1674

<<<There is the whole school of thought that
the shortcomings we notice, and react to emotionally, in others are likely to be our own worst faults.>>>

Robyn, I gotta tell you, this is such an eye opener. I was all emotionally charged about something dumb my neighbor said tonight regarding bare feet/no shoes (for the 3rd time either in front of, or directly to, one of my barefooted kids.) Then I read this quote above in your post and it was like a light bulb turned on. I realized that I interpreted his words as judgmental against me or my family (for not making my kids wear shoes.) Being judgmental is one of the worst faults that I dislike about myself. Realizing that helped me let go of this anger at my neighbor and just choose to enjoy my family tonight.

Jenny V.

kelly_sturman

> This list isn't about judging, blaming or controlling. It's about
> discussing questions and situations and finding sweet, joyful things
> to do that make the children and the parents feel better.

When I post something here, it is because I am actively
deschooling, trying hard to "get it," and getting stuck sometimes.

If there is any blame or judgement going on, that would be
*me* blaming myself for not getting it sooner, or making a
considered judgement that I want to parent better. I could
use different words, I suppose, rather than judgement and blame.
"I notice that I want to change," for example.

But I come here knowing I can do better and looking for
help to get to "better." And I get that help. Consistently.

Many people give *freely* of their time to help me and
many, many others like me. These people are probably
going to agree with my "judgement" that I could be
parenting better. So...

Why should I be defensive? That doesn't make sense! I don't
want to defend old ways of being that aren't working.

THANK YOU, Sandra and all, for giving so much every day
to help children lead better lives by helping parents be
better parents.

Kelly Sturman

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/11/2009 1:11 PM, bigandlittle6 wrote:
> I do love many things that this group offers. I truly believe in free learning, unschooling, consensual living, non coercive parenting, etc. etc. and I hear that talked about a lot here. But I feel a huge desire to see these things MERGE with NVC, with a more compassionate consciousness. I often hear people here "shoulding" each other, judging each other, saying there is a right way or a wrong way to go about something. When I hear this, I am confused, because aren't we parents on here striving to treat our children the opposite of this, through unschooling, free learning, etc.? Yet we come on here and "should" other adults? I am lost and confused and discouraged when I hear that.
>

You DO realize that you're spending a lot of energy telling the rest of
us exactly how you think we SHOULD converse, right?

I cringe when people use NVC on me. It is manipulative - filled with
pretense and holier-than-thou attitude. When people start out offering
me empathy and end up asking me if I'm willing to blah blah blah - all I
want to do is get OUT of the conversation and go find someone with whom
to have a refreshingly honest conversation in which we say what we
really think and feel.

Spare me, please.

-pam

Joyce Fetteroll

> How can people keep perpetuating the idea that there is even such
> thing as a "good" mom, or a "bad" mom?
>

The reason this subject of good and bad is confusing is that it
depends on the context. If NVC is suggesting that nothing should ever
be judged good or bad, that won't be a useful life skill.

I suspect good and bad come with baggage for a lot of people. To them
they feel like they're being put into the reject pile with bad and
accepted into the clique with good based on nothing more than
someone's opinion.

That's a bad kind of bad ;-)

While the words good and bad are not going to disappear from society,
it might be helpful (good :-) to mentally substitute the words useful/
not useful or helpful/not helpful or move toward/move away from.
Those words read more clearly goal oriented. Good and bad read as
though they're judging by some vague undefined standard.

Most mothers would claim they want to be good mothers. But what does
good mean in that context? Good useless *as a philosophy*. Is it good
to say no to sweets? Is it good to make your kids happy? Is it good
to make them get 8 hours of sleep? Is it good to let them stay up as
late as they want? All sound "good". But there's no foundation to
judge against. And it's why most parents feel parenting is a crap shoot.

This list is about unschooling. There are ideas that will help
someone move towards unschooling and better relationships and some
that will move them away. In this context, that's the definition of
good and bad. Though I consciously try to avoid the terms good and
bad in unschooling responses because they're vague and don't
communicate the point I'm trying to make.

Joyce

Lyla Wolfenstein

While the words good and bad are not going to disappear from society,
it might be helpful (good :-) to mentally substitute the words useful/
not useful or helpful/not helpful or move toward/move away from.
Those words read more clearly goal oriented. Good and bad read as
though they're judging by some vague undefined standard.

Most mothers would claim they want to be good mothers. But what does
good mean in that context? Good useless *as a philosophy*. Is it good
to say no to sweets? Is it good to make your kids happy? Is it good
to make them get 8 hours of sleep? Is it good to let them stay up as
late as they want? All sound "good". But there's no foundation to
judge against. And it's why most parents feel parenting is a crap shoot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

this makes a huge amount of sense to me - i am not "into" nvc, but i have found some of the things i've learned through nc readings, practice, etc, useful, when incorporated into my larger life. my understanding is that the good / bad thing is more about staying away from value judgements that are just that - out of context - and seeing every action as an attempt to meet a need. the strategies chosen/defaulted to in order to meet the need are sometimes ineffective, sometimes downright damaging, but the *cause* is an unmet need. if someone chooses a poor strategy - or worse a damaging one - then it's at best ineffective and at worst undermines or demolishes both the chances of meeting the need of the person choosing the strategy, AND others around that person - in the case being discussed, a mother's children.

many strategies chosen in an attempt to meet some deep unmet needs by "bad" moms damage their kids, sometimes nearly beyond repair. so in the evaluation of whether they are being effective/useful moms, they are not - since the "measure" of motherhood by most universal standards is to grow children into relatively contented adults who can also turn around and be effective parents.

so in the context of unschooling, it seems totally obvious to me that there are strategies that will support unschooling and strategies that will not or will damage the likelihood of it's success. useful/not useful.

and yes, i hear all the time, statements like "oh, i am such a bad mom, i got him into the habit of always getting a cookie at the store", etc. so the measure of what makes a mom bad or good is fairly loosely interpreted, and sometimes/often to be in complete opposition to what makes someone an effective unschooler.

warmly, Lyla

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Lyla Wolfenstein

I cringe when people use NVC on me. It is manipulative - filled with
pretense and holier-than-thou attitude. When people start out offering
me empathy and end up asking me if I'm willing to blah blah blah - all I
want to do is get OUT of the conversation and go find someone with whom
to have a refreshingly honest conversation in which we say what we
really think and feel.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

i also despise the formulaic nature of those conversations, and lots of other "methods". one of the things that nvc offers - but so does a deep reading of the unschooling writings - is a reflection of how behaviors are strategies to meet needs. that our actions as humans are needs based - and kids, for instance, are not inherently manipulative, out to get us, "testing the limits" or any other of a number of pat phrases and beliefs that are fairly ubiquitous out there, with regard to children. so i think the whole feelings and needs language is helpful for some people, who have never thought of the world in such a framework before, and are instead accustomed to looking for perpetrators and victims, and where to lay blame, and what is "good" or "bad" in a universal sense, not in the sense of serving a specific purpose - of being an effective strategy.

unfortunately, it seems pretty common and perhaps human nature to take any new framework of understanding, be it unschooling, nvc, or "educational constructivism",waldorf, montessori, etc. - and to become very rigid and formulaic about it, and very narrowminded in terms of incorporating those new (to the person) frames of reference into their current world view. it seems like it can be pretty impossible to break through the "i am a newly committed and frenzied adherent to xyz" armor that seems to be constructed by so many while making some new thoughts their/our own....

warmly, Lyla


Spare me, please.

-pam





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Sandra Dodd

-=--unfortunately, it seems pretty common and perhaps human nature to
take any new framework of understanding, be it unschooling, nvc, or
"educational constructivism",waldorf, montessori, etc. - and to become
very rigid and formulaic about it, and very narrowminded in terms of
incorporating those new (to the person) frames of reference into their
current world view. it seems like it can be pretty impossible to break
through the "i am a newly committed and frenzied adherent to xyz"
armor that seems to be constructed by so many while making some new
thoughts their/our own....-=-

IF they ever do.

NVC is all about rules, though, and labelling people with new labels
and using jargon (redefining words for the purpose, such as "violent,"
just as NCP redefined "coerce."

For those unfamiliar with these initials, NVC is for "non-violent
communication" which says "Do things our way or you are a violent
jackal." NCP is "Non-coercive parenting" which says "Do things our
way or you are coercive."

I have tried for a long time NOT to say "do things the unschooling
way," but do things that make sense, that aren't arbitrary, that make
you a more peaceful and generous person. Still it's pretty common
and perhaps human nature for some people to come, take a glance, get
excited about something (like "No BEDTIMES!" and tell their kids "You
never have to go to bed again! NOW we are UNschoolers!")

People like rules and touchstones and proofs and flags to wave.

I think "the rule" should be "think," and the touchstone should be a
child's head, touched gently.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> I guess no-one needs NVC to say "I feel happy because...." And yet,
coming
> full circle, one's happiness could be used as tool to motivate kids.
>


Robyn, you just nailed it for me! This is exactly the feeling that I've
gotten from the NVC stuff. It focuses on changing the negative, which
is all good and well in a way since there are plenty of folks who really
need to do that, BUT, my own experience says that focusing on "I feel
happy because..." is a waaaaay better place to come from within your
heart!

Only after "I feel happy because", can I get to solve the things that
cause sadness. Reflecting on what makes me happy and what causes
happiness, shows me what to do, and in a sense what NOT to do because of
it!

Lyla Wolfenstein

I think "the rule" should be "think," and the touchstone should be a
child's head, touched gently
.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

i love this. thanks sandra. so simple.
Lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bea

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>

>
> I have tried for a long time NOT to say "do things the unschooling
> way," but do things that make sense, that aren't arbitrary, that make
> you a more peaceful and generous person.


This (and the whole NVC-related thread) reminds me of the movie Yes Man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Man_(film)

a very funny movie (I'm not a huge fan of Jim Carey, but he was not bad in this movie) and kind of unschooly.

Bea

[email protected]

>>>> This good/bad right/wrong idea is fed to us as small children. <<<<

That really isn't how learning works. For me, anyway. Growing up, I
knew the ideas that I imbibed were temporary for me and that I was
expected to believe in things I didn't believe in.

Learning doesn't operate by directly feeding or putting ideas into a
person. People take in information and use it in ways that they choose
to, even if they're not aware of the fact that they're choosing
anything. And choosing leads to more learning. More choices lead to
other experiences.

Once I left my parent's home (not being allowed to make many decisions
while there), I began to choose what I wanted from then on. I had
already been choosing what I believed before then, despite the fact
that some of it would not align with my parent's thoughts and ideas
simply because while my parents could control my environment they
couldn't control my thoughts.

>>>> We're taught static, one size fits all "morals" and are expected
to swallow them. <<<<

Which only works when people can't choose not to swallow them. But
people can choose. When I was a child, I refused to agree to a good
bit of what I was told even when I couldn't always choose what to do.
And there are times an adult can disagree and not have a choice in the
matter as well.

This is a good time to introduce the difference between *teach* and
*learn.* If being told or taught something led to knowledge, school
would work equally well for every child. Since being taught doesn't
always lead to knowledge, aren't children figuring out their own
knowledge, in other words.... learning on their own (and I would
argue.. even when they're in school)? Children learn whether they're
in school or not.

Unschoolers strive to make learning fun not obligatory. That's the
difference between learning all the time and being distracted by school
obligations.

~Katherine

Robin Bentley

>
> I think "the rule" should be "think," and the touchstone should be a
> child's head, touched gently.
>
Sometimes, I think I "think" too much. But maybe it's better than the
alternative!

I love the image of the touchstone being a child's head. When I have
the opportunity to get close enough to Michelle to smell her head, it
calms me. It takes me back to those sweet moments of the family bed
and nursing and cuddling up to read. Cuddling and sleeping in the same
bed still happens now and again (not the nursing <g>). I'm so grateful
for those moments.

Robin B.

Ren Allen

~~NVC is all about rules, though, and labeling people with new labels
and using jargon (redefining words for the purpose, such as "violent,"
just as NCP redefined "coerce."

For those unfamiliar with these initials, NVC is for "non-violent
communication" which says "Do things our way or you are a violent
jackal." NCP is "Non-coercive parenting" which says "Do things our
way or you are coercive."

I have tried for a long time NOT to say "do things the unschooling
way," but do things that make sense, that aren't arbitrary, that make
you a more peaceful and generous person. Still it's pretty common
and perhaps human nature for some people to come, take a glance, get
excited about something (like "No BEDTIMES!" and tell their kids "You
never have to go to bed again! NOW we are UNschoolers!")

People like rules and touchstones and proofs and flags to wave.

I think "the rule" should be "think," and the touchstone should be a
child's head, touched gently.~~


I like this a lot.
Since I don't have a lot of time to write lately...I've been swiping other people's stuff and sharing it at my blog. Can I post this? It sums up my own feeling about NVC so well, and points to the more important aspects of what all the discussions are aimed at.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-I like this a lot.
Since I don't have a lot of time to write lately...I've been swiping
other people's stuff and sharing it at my blog. Can I post this-=-

Sure, Ren!

Thanks.

One of my SCA students (because I'm of a rank like a knight, but for
arts, and for service, and so I have like squires, but not squires--
and Ren's been around the SCA so she'll get this) posted a comment on
the second of those youtube videos of me talking about unschooling.
He just did it this morning. It's short, and that's not what's
important. What I wanted to tell is something I've used in apprentice
ceremonies, which was to say "I never want you to disagree with me
(and then pause for people who are gathered to hear it) to think
"what!?" and then I continue "...without thinking first. And I never
want you to agree with me without thinking first."

Same with my kids. Same with anyone who wants to say "Yeah, but
Sandra said..." First think and see if it made sense. See if I
made a typo that negates the whole intention. <g> See if it's really
me writing about universal principles or whether I'm just on a tear
about my mom or something. And then see if it helps you, that
thought or that idea. And roll it over a while. And when and if you
believe it, believe it because the idea itself is worthy of keeping
around and using in YOUR life.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>>> When I read about NVC, I thought that a lot of it *should* ;) stay
internal.
Identifying one's feelings, doing the mental process of saying "I feel
frustrated because..." , "I feel annoyed because...", "I feel scared
because...." and owning one's own part in the feelings, discovering
one's
own needs, might work better by staying internal. That way a person
isn't
bombarding the other person with words, especially important if the
other
person is a child. Notice how so much of this is about identifying
negative
feelings. So often "because" is followed by "you did something." <<<<

This is exactly how I felt about NVC when my friend started talking
about it a few years ago. Internal self-talk could really improve by
making distinctions between thoughts and feelings.

>>>> It sure would be great if everyone expressed themselves well and
thoughtfully, and always said "I think" when expressing opinion and "I
feel"
when really naming an emotion. <<<<

And that's why I stopped saying "I feel" a couple years ago and kept "I
think." I rarely talk about my feelings because they are basically
direct expressions of my needs and I could express them more directly
without the word "feel" in there. I"m scared is not a way to identify
yourself as a fearful person but to express your need for security in
the moment. I'm not worried if people think I"m fearful when I don't
use the words "I feel scared." There's not an appreciable difference
to me in the phrasing. So I drop "feel" from the phrase.

I still use the phrasing "I feel that" followed by my opinion because
I'm pretty sure no one gets the idea that my feelings are as involved
as my thoughts. And a key point here is that even in opinions,
frequently there's a lot more about feelings and needs than about
thoughts anyway. My thoughts are greatly influenced by my feelings
though not as overcome with feelings as they used to be (most of the
time).

They're really very intertwined but recognizing how often feelings and
emotions are present in our thoughts and actions is a big part of the
communication puzzle for me, both internally and with others.

~Katherine

Ed Wendell

This is exactly what my husband and I were discussing about why this list is useful to us a couple of weeks ago! Many of the discussions may or may not be specific to us or our family BUT many of the basic ideas do help us with: when and if we believe it, we believe it because the idea itself is worthy of keeping around and using in our own lives. Some things don't fit and are discarded, some don't fit now but come to fit later as we grow into them. Sometimes we have to unearth the very thing we discarded out of hand previously - when later "click" & we are thinking, "Wow that does fit now!"

Lisa W.




Same with anyone who wants to say "Yeah, but Sandra said..." First think and see if it made sense. See if I made a typo that negates the whole intention. <g> See if it's really me writing about universal principles or whether I'm just on a tear about my mom or something. And then see if it helps you, that thought or that idea. And roll it over a while. And when and if you believe it, believe it because the idea itself is worthy of keeping
around and using in YOUR life.

Sandra


.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/12/2009 7:53 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
> is a reflection of how behaviors are strategies to meet needs. that our actions as humans are needs based - and kids, for instance, are not inherently manipulative, out to get us,
I don't do a lot of thinking in terms of needs. Yes, there is the Mazlow
hierarchy of needs - it has always seemed valuable to me to remember
that some needs take priority. Always good to check on basic needs -
hunger, sleep, safety, when things aren't going well.

But, as an economist, I think more often in terms of wants, not needs.
To us, the word "need" is an "intense want." I like thinking of needs
and wants as pretty much the same things, on a spectrum of intensity of
desire. Otherwise, people tend to act like "needs" ought to be met, but
"wants" are something lesser, more optional.

I try to take them all seriously - not try to distinguish between wants
versus needs.

Seems like nvc people have master lists of needs and feelings and they
tend to use a handful of them repeatedly.

I think it is sort of intrusive or invasive the way nvc people say, "I'm
guessing that you're feeling a need for comfort or maybe
connection....." Etc. I often have the urge to say, "None of your
business." I resent feeling obligated to talk about or even admit to
what is going on in my own inner life to someone just because they have
decided that is how they want to converse.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-. Sometimes we have to unearth the very thing we discarded out of
hand previously - when later "click" & we are thinking, "Wow that does
fit now!" -=-

Keith and I have been working jigsaw puzzles for about a year
straight. As soon as we pick one up, we take out another one. One
thing I'm going to do in England is go to charity shops and buy jigsaw
puzzles to send home. I brought some last time and they're great.

We had done some that are particularly hard, and it's interesting how
much alike 200 pieces can look when all the easiest parts are done and
the rest of the stuff is there. But the more that's done, the more
distinct and important those remaining pieces appear to be, until
there are only a few and they don't look ANYthing alike anymore.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think it is sort of intrusive or invasive the way nvc people say,
"I'm
guessing that you're feeling a need for comfort or maybe
connection....." Etc. I often have the urge to say, "None of your
business." I resent feeling obligated to talk about or even admit to
what is going on in my own inner life to someone just because they have
decided that is how they want to converse.-=-

GOOD POINT! I hadn't realized why it bothers me but that's it. It's
way nosy.

I don't like the grocery store employees asking me what I'm going to
do with something I bought. Even when I know (because Marty worked
there) that they're required to chit chat with me, it's none of their
business what I'm going to make. Maybe I'm going to use the eggs for
target practice and the baking soda to blow something up. Maybe I'm
going to give it all to the food bank. But it's my secret stuff.

When I go to the fabric store if I know the person who's cutting my
cloth, I don't mind talking. If it's a total stranger, I don't want
to talk about what I'm going to make with that cloth.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/12/2009 7:53 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
> so i think the whole feelings and needs language is helpful for some people, who have never thought of the world in such a framework before, and are instead accustomed to looking for perpetrators and victims, and where to lay blame, and what is "good" or "bad" in a universal sense, not in the sense of serving a specific purpose - of being an effective strategy.
>

I didn't want my reply to Lyla's post to sound like I was not agreeing
with the above. I probably got some value, myself, out of reading some
of the NVC stuff and being on the list for practicing NVC for quite a
while. It is the formulaic approach that most of the people trying to
practice NVC take that bugs the heck out of me, plus there is an
underlying assumption that it is okay for them to control how we
converse because they know the "right" way to do it.

But, yes, reading those lists of feelings and needs and thinking in
terms of those in place of thinking in terms of blame - that's good
awareness to develop. Just don't try to identify MY feelings and needs
based on your favorite list. It seems to me that most people project a
lot, anyway, - meaning they think they are identifying other people's
needs, but they're probably projecting their own needs on those people
much of the time.

I like to see people reading and listening and then letting ideas float
around in their heads and come out when they've become a part of that
person's way of thinking/living.

I'm okay with a little "trying it out" time - maybe something doesn't
seem "natural" to a person, but they try a different approach. For
example, I've previously told the story of my husband who used to
lecture the kids about one thing that bugged him - leaving damp towels
draped over the back of a chair or the couch. It was absolutely apparent
to me that his repeated nagging and lengthy explanations of why he
didn't want them to do it were having no effect. I told him about the
idea in "How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk"
about using just one word. He tried it. Roya walked into the living
room, drying her hair with a towel, draped the towel over the back of
the couch while she talked to us, then started to walk away and leave it
there. Cyrus just said, gently, "Towel," and she turned aroudn, gave him
a big bright smile and said, "Oh, yeah," grabbed the towel and went and
hung it up.

But, that doesn't mean I'd recommend following the "How to Talk" book
method like a script (which is how it is written). Read and read,
experiment, think about what makes sense to you with your own real kids
- let it seep in to your thinking and come out in your behaviors in ways
that are authentic to you.



-pam

k

Wasn't it R.E.M. who said "what you want is what you need"? :) I think
that's where I picked up on what you're saying here, Pam.

~Katherine


On 5/12/2009 7:53 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
> is a reflection of how behaviors are strategies to meet needs. that our
actions as humans are needs based - and kids, for instance, are > not
inherently manipulative, out to get us



>>>> as an economist, I think more often in terms of wants, not needs.
To us, the word "need" is an "intense want." I like thinking of needs
and wants as pretty much the same things, on a spectrum of intensity of
desire.
-pam <<<<


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-To us, the word "need" is an "intense want." I like thinking of needs
and wants as pretty much the same things, on a spectrum of intensity of
desire.-=-

They're pretty much the same thing linguistically/historically, and I
think it's religion that caused the differentiation. Religion and
disrespect for women and children, which are in our culture sometimes
the same thing.

"To want" means to be lacking (from the viewpoint of the past many
hundred years). Someone who isn't up to snuff is "found wanting."

"To need" means to be lacking.


Then there are sins. To covet. To lust. To desire.

-=-Wasn't it R.E.M. who said "what you want is what you need"? :) I
think
that's where I picked up on what you're saying here, Pam.-=-

The Rolling Stones didn't help, by singing

"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you might
just find you get what you need."

Clearly, people don't always get what they need! <bwg>



Here's another thought about a young child saying "I want that," about
a toy he sees on TV, or something someone else has. What he wants
and needs might be to touch it, to see how heavy it is, how it works,
what it smells like.



What he wants, and needs, is to learn.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

space_and_freedom

>--- In [email protected], katherand@... wrote:
>
> Unschoolers strive to make learning fun not obligatory.
>

I try to give my kids lots of fun experiences. The idea that one needs to "make learning fun" is a leftover from school think. Sure, learning often happens more easily when one is having fun, but learning happens naturally, I don't have to dress it up to make it palatable.

Admittedly, trying to make learning certain things obligatory is certainly a fast way to shut down interest and suck the fun out of the experience.

Jen H. (DD8, DD6, DS3)

http://crazychicknlady.livejournal.com/