a question
m_aduhene
hi
i am not sure if this is strictly and unschooling question, but it would be good if i could ask it. what are people's opinions on ADHD? we have a young man who stays with us occasionally. he is 16 and was "diagnosed" about a year ago. i asked him if he felt he was "ill" and he said he had read a book (on ADHD) which described him exactly. i had read some research that suggested ADHD is not technically a medical condition and is used as an excuse to quieten down children who do not fit the system. i was also wondering if there are any cases of ADHD among unschoohlers?
apologies if this is off-topic.
blessings
michelle
i am not sure if this is strictly and unschooling question, but it would be good if i could ask it. what are people's opinions on ADHD? we have a young man who stays with us occasionally. he is 16 and was "diagnosed" about a year ago. i asked him if he felt he was "ill" and he said he had read a book (on ADHD) which described him exactly. i had read some research that suggested ADHD is not technically a medical condition and is used as an excuse to quieten down children who do not fit the system. i was also wondering if there are any cases of ADHD among unschoohlers?
apologies if this is off-topic.
blessings
michelle
guideforthree
-----i asked him if he felt he was "ill" and he said he had read a book (on ADHD) which described him exactly.-----
Reading about ADHD after you have been diagnosed and saying "That's me exactly" is a lot like reading your horiscope and saying "That's me exactly." The definition is so broad that many parts of it could fit just about anybody.
----- i had read some research that suggested ADHD is not technically a medical condition and is used as an excuse to quieten down children who do not fit the system. ------
When I taught middle school, one of the teachers I worked with suggested that any child who could not sit still in her (extremely boring) class should be medicated for ADHD. During my experience teaching in both the public and private sector, and as a parent of children who previously attended private school, I learned that labels are primarily used for any child who does not fit in the system. Typically, there is nothing wrong with the child. The problem is the environment. Rather than change the environment to suit the child, they try to change the child to suit the environment - sometimes by drugging the child.
----- i was also wondering if there are any cases of ADHD among unschoohlers?-----
I don't have any children with the ADHD label, but I do have a son who has an Asperger's label. That label was very pertinent when he was still in school. It helped explain why he didn't behave the way the other children did - like the time he ran out of the classroom and climed on top of the school secretary's desk when the teaching assitant changed mid-year. However, I discovered that the label sort of faded away once we started unschooling. He has a lot more control over his environment now, and now people just see him as an introverted child who likes things to be a particular way.
I imagine a label of ADHD would also fade away once a child no longer has to sit still and listen to a boring teacher. Behavioral labels are about kids not fitting into the environment. If you change the environment, the label will no longer apply.
Tina
Reading about ADHD after you have been diagnosed and saying "That's me exactly" is a lot like reading your horiscope and saying "That's me exactly." The definition is so broad that many parts of it could fit just about anybody.
----- i had read some research that suggested ADHD is not technically a medical condition and is used as an excuse to quieten down children who do not fit the system. ------
When I taught middle school, one of the teachers I worked with suggested that any child who could not sit still in her (extremely boring) class should be medicated for ADHD. During my experience teaching in both the public and private sector, and as a parent of children who previously attended private school, I learned that labels are primarily used for any child who does not fit in the system. Typically, there is nothing wrong with the child. The problem is the environment. Rather than change the environment to suit the child, they try to change the child to suit the environment - sometimes by drugging the child.
----- i was also wondering if there are any cases of ADHD among unschoohlers?-----
I don't have any children with the ADHD label, but I do have a son who has an Asperger's label. That label was very pertinent when he was still in school. It helped explain why he didn't behave the way the other children did - like the time he ran out of the classroom and climed on top of the school secretary's desk when the teaching assitant changed mid-year. However, I discovered that the label sort of faded away once we started unschooling. He has a lot more control over his environment now, and now people just see him as an introverted child who likes things to be a particular way.
I imagine a label of ADHD would also fade away once a child no longer has to sit still and listen to a boring teacher. Behavioral labels are about kids not fitting into the environment. If you change the environment, the label will no longer apply.
Tina
Roberta Scherr
Regarding ADD:
I do believe that there is a real entitiy of ADD. I certainly see excessive movement, innattention and impulsivity in children that I care for as their family doctor. I believe that their is a connection between these manifestations and the child's trauma history, attachment and coping skills as well as their brain system for attention. It is extremely hard to tease out and understand the cause and affect between differences in temperament, differences in attachment, differences in parenting styles, and differences in expectations.
It is interesting that a subset of adults, who identify themselves as havinghad these same behaviors in childhood do seem to have persistent problems in "executive functioning" in adulthood. These people often do have improvement in their symptoms with the same medications used for children with ADD.
My concern about the large number of childrem being treated for ADD, is that there is very often little or no effort made to determine if there is a cause behind the disruption of the chemical brain system for attention and focus. Many of the kids would be better served by attachment parenting, an unschooling approach, and attention to their early trauma.
The other issue is that children with ADD are almost always treated because their "symptoms" bother someone else - like a parent or a teacher. Adults with ADD choose to be treated, and many of those who do feel benefitted by the treatment.
My son, with his extensive trauma history, usually does want to take his medication, and does feel that it helps him to feel better and do what he wants to do. When he doesn't feel his medicine is a benefit, then he can choose not to take it. Fortunately, medications for ADD work at the time they are ingested, and are rapidly metabolized, so these kind of decisions can be made based on what is happening in real time.
Bobbi
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do believe that there is a real entitiy of ADD. I certainly see excessive movement, innattention and impulsivity in children that I care for as their family doctor. I believe that their is a connection between these manifestations and the child's trauma history, attachment and coping skills as well as their brain system for attention. It is extremely hard to tease out and understand the cause and affect between differences in temperament, differences in attachment, differences in parenting styles, and differences in expectations.
It is interesting that a subset of adults, who identify themselves as havinghad these same behaviors in childhood do seem to have persistent problems in "executive functioning" in adulthood. These people often do have improvement in their symptoms with the same medications used for children with ADD.
My concern about the large number of childrem being treated for ADD, is that there is very often little or no effort made to determine if there is a cause behind the disruption of the chemical brain system for attention and focus. Many of the kids would be better served by attachment parenting, an unschooling approach, and attention to their early trauma.
The other issue is that children with ADD are almost always treated because their "symptoms" bother someone else - like a parent or a teacher. Adults with ADD choose to be treated, and many of those who do feel benefitted by the treatment.
My son, with his extensive trauma history, usually does want to take his medication, and does feel that it helps him to feel better and do what he wants to do. When he doesn't feel his medicine is a benefit, then he can choose not to take it. Fortunately, medications for ADD work at the time they are ingested, and are rapidly metabolized, so these kind of decisions can be made based on what is happening in real time.
Bobbi
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "m_aduhene" <m_aduhene@...> wrote:
in the collective imagination of the American Psychiatric
Association. See this website:
http://www.adhdfraud.com/
See also this page at my website:
http://www.parental-intelligence.com/barryturner.html
Also my free ebook, How The American Psychiatric Association Tried To
Scam Me And What I Did About It:
http://www.parental-intelligence.com/HTAPATTSM.html
The reason why people recognise their behaviour in the "diagnosis" of
"ADHD" and similar invented concepts is the so called "symptoms" are
simply observations of that behavour to begin with. Write down a list
of behaviours, give the behaviours a name, tell somebody they have
the name because the name always consists of those behaviours and the
person with the behaviours forgets they have behaviours and thinks
they have the name. It's impossible for them to do otherwise. The
scam is foolproof unless you're aware of the methodology used by
psychiatry to invent its alleged "disorders".
If I like to chew gum, read Batman comics and wear yellow t-shirts,
in reality I'm only somebody who likes to chew gum, read Batman
comics and wear yellow t-shirts. If somebody else perceives those
behaviours to be "abnormal" - a purely subjective argument - and
decides to group them together and call the resulting artificial
conglomeration "Plonkiness", we might then see an article in a glossy
magazine entitled, "Do you suffer from Plonkiness?" And what are the
"symptoms" of Plonkiness? Chewing gum, reading Batman comics and
wearing yellow t-shirts. Oh my gosh, that describes me exactly. I've
got Plonkiness. No, I like chewing gum, reading Batman comics and
wearing yellow t-shirts. Plonkiness is a figment of the imagination.
"ADHD" is a figment of the imagination. Which is not to say that the
behaviours don't exist, and, yes, some people find them troublesome.
It's that the American Psychiatric Association's supposed
"explanation" for the behaviours is a pernicious little fantasy.
Bob
>"ADHD" is a medical metaphor not a medical condition. It was created
> hi
> i am not sure if this is strictly and unschooling question, but it would be good if i could ask it. what are people's opinions on ADHD? we have a young man who stays with us occasionally. he is 16 and was "diagnosed" about a year ago. i asked him if he felt he was "ill" and he said he had read a book (on ADHD) which described him exactly. i had read some research that suggested ADHD is not technically a medical condition and is used as an excuse to quieten down children who do not fit the system. i was also wondering if there are any cases of ADHD among unschoohlers?
> apologies if this is off-topic.
> blessings
> michelle
>
in the collective imagination of the American Psychiatric
Association. See this website:
http://www.adhdfraud.com/
See also this page at my website:
http://www.parental-intelligence.com/barryturner.html
Also my free ebook, How The American Psychiatric Association Tried To
Scam Me And What I Did About It:
http://www.parental-intelligence.com/HTAPATTSM.html
The reason why people recognise their behaviour in the "diagnosis" of
"ADHD" and similar invented concepts is the so called "symptoms" are
simply observations of that behavour to begin with. Write down a list
of behaviours, give the behaviours a name, tell somebody they have
the name because the name always consists of those behaviours and the
person with the behaviours forgets they have behaviours and thinks
they have the name. It's impossible for them to do otherwise. The
scam is foolproof unless you're aware of the methodology used by
psychiatry to invent its alleged "disorders".
If I like to chew gum, read Batman comics and wear yellow t-shirts,
in reality I'm only somebody who likes to chew gum, read Batman
comics and wear yellow t-shirts. If somebody else perceives those
behaviours to be "abnormal" - a purely subjective argument - and
decides to group them together and call the resulting artificial
conglomeration "Plonkiness", we might then see an article in a glossy
magazine entitled, "Do you suffer from Plonkiness?" And what are the
"symptoms" of Plonkiness? Chewing gum, reading Batman comics and
wearing yellow t-shirts. Oh my gosh, that describes me exactly. I've
got Plonkiness. No, I like chewing gum, reading Batman comics and
wearing yellow t-shirts. Plonkiness is a figment of the imagination.
"ADHD" is a figment of the imagination. Which is not to say that the
behaviours don't exist, and, yes, some people find them troublesome.
It's that the American Psychiatric Association's supposed
"explanation" for the behaviours is a pernicious little fantasy.
Bob
Kelly Nishan
--- In [email protected], "m_aduhene" <m_aduhene@...> wrote:
. i was also wondering if there are any cases of ADHD among unschoohlers?
> apologies if this is off-topic.
> blessings
> michelle
>
Hi Michelle
My daughter (16) recieved a diagnosis of ADHD & anxiety DO between 7th & 8th grade while still in school. Getting a diagnosis was my last ditch effort in helping her manage in school by getting a plan that the teachers were "supposed" to be legally obligated to follow. However because she was still having trouble functioning and wasn't being medicated they started putting a lot of pressure on me.
I finally took her out of school and she did choose to take medication for anxiety for awhile until she got a handle on it herself. she has tried medication for ADHD and said it does help but chooses not to take it because it disrupts her sleep too much. She may decide to take it if she starts following a more traditional schedule or is taking classes full time.
The way she explained it is while she was at a group she could look at something else and still hear and attend to what the leader was saying. Usually she is visually distracted and no longer "hears" what is going on. She has trouble watching someones face while they are talking without being distracted. She does the best if she is focusing on doing something with her hands while listening. She doodles or fidgets with something. As you can imagine the classroom was a horrible learning enviornment for her. Right now she is self medicating with caffiene and is able to ask for help with attending to things when she needs to. She adapts to her own style just like everyone else.
Kelly
Robyn L. Coburn
<<< She has trouble watching someones face while they are talking without
being distracted. She does the best if she is focusing on doing something
with her hands while listening. She doodles or fidgets with something.>>>
She might consider and enjoy something like embroidery, needlepoint, beading
or crochet instead of just fidgeting. These things might be more socially
acceptable, giving her a reason for only glancing up only occasionally while
still being able to listen.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
being distracted. She does the best if she is focusing on doing something
with her hands while listening. She doodles or fidgets with something.>>>
She might consider and enjoy something like embroidery, needlepoint, beading
or crochet instead of just fidgeting. These things might be more socially
acceptable, giving her a reason for only glancing up only occasionally while
still being able to listen.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-
"ADHD" is a figment of the imagination. Which is not to say that the
behaviours don't exist, and, yes, some people find them troublesome.
It's that the American Psychiatric Association's supposed
"explanation" for the behaviours is a pernicious little fantasy.-=-
Bob's right. Another way to think of ADHD is "school allergy," or
"school intolerance." <g>
But I was a hyper active kid who loved school. There are all kinds of
ways individuals deal with their own personality traits and their own
biochemistry. Anyone who CAN "pay attention" for 45 minutes to
something they already know or totally don't care about or can't
understand a word of is in worse shape than the one who understands
already and wants to do origami and let music play in her head. I
could "do" (imagine in detail) full Beatles albums in my head, in real
time, with the exact length of the breaks between songs on the album,
with the same relative key changes from one song to the next, and many
a U.S. History class was bearable because I had those albums in my
head, and that's how I physically kept myself in the chair and quiet.
Because I was "ahead" and "gifted" and "a good student," my hyper
activity was given the respectful name of "boredom." Those kids who
were less interested in playing the "do this to get an 'A'" game, or
who really didn't understand or didn't give a rat's ass, if they had
the same sort of biological consitution I had, they were bad, and
troublemakers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"ADHD" is a figment of the imagination. Which is not to say that the
behaviours don't exist, and, yes, some people find them troublesome.
It's that the American Psychiatric Association's supposed
"explanation" for the behaviours is a pernicious little fantasy.-=-
Bob's right. Another way to think of ADHD is "school allergy," or
"school intolerance." <g>
But I was a hyper active kid who loved school. There are all kinds of
ways individuals deal with their own personality traits and their own
biochemistry. Anyone who CAN "pay attention" for 45 minutes to
something they already know or totally don't care about or can't
understand a word of is in worse shape than the one who understands
already and wants to do origami and let music play in her head. I
could "do" (imagine in detail) full Beatles albums in my head, in real
time, with the exact length of the breaks between songs on the album,
with the same relative key changes from one song to the next, and many
a U.S. History class was bearable because I had those albums in my
head, and that's how I physically kept myself in the chair and quiet.
Because I was "ahead" and "gifted" and "a good student," my hyper
activity was given the respectful name of "boredom." Those kids who
were less interested in playing the "do this to get an 'A'" game, or
who really didn't understand or didn't give a rat's ass, if they had
the same sort of biological consitution I had, they were bad, and
troublemakers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Right now she is self medicating with caffiene and is able to ask
for help with attending to things when she needs to. She adapts to her
own style just like everyone else.-=-
Well, just like everyone else who isn't medicated or who hasn't
decided the criticisms reflect on their failure to be a right and good
human being.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for help with attending to things when she needs to. She adapts to her
own style just like everyone else.-=-
Well, just like everyone else who isn't medicated or who hasn't
decided the criticisms reflect on their failure to be a right and good
human being.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>>> Anyone who CAN "pay attention" for 45 minutes tosomething they already know or totally don't care about or can't
understand a word of is in worse shape than the one who understands
already and wants to do origami and let music play in her head. <<<<
I can pay attention but speakers probably still have no idea what I'm
paying attention to. I don't hear well and reading lips and facial
expressions is something that fascinates me because every person's is
different. I may have a pretty good handle on what's being said
generally while my main focus is really on the visual aspect of body
language, social interactions and things like that.
It has been said that people can only give attention to one thing at a
time... but that's probably not strictly true for many people. So the
disability of ADHD may simply be the superability to attend to many
things at once and still find that it's not enough to keep them
interested. Uhm..... who's disabled really? The teacher who can't
provide that much to interest with. Ooops. So now it's a bit like
that story by Kurt Vonnegut where people are artificially handicapped
with drugs and other things to hold ADHD folk down. The homogenization
of the school populace.
~Katherine
Jenny C
>medication for anxiety for awhile until she got a handle on it herself.
>>> I finally took her out of school and she did choose to take
she has tried medication for ADHD and said it does help but chooses not
to take it because it disrupts her sleep too much. She may decide to
take it if she starts following a more traditional schedule or is taking
classes full time. >>>
I hope that she can find a way to take it out of her toolbox entirely!
ADHD medicine is little more than taking speed. That's why it messes
with people's sleep and eating habits. If she knew that, would she
still try to rely on it, even on occasion?
>at something else and still hear and attend to what the leader was
>>> The way she explained it is while she was at a group she could look
saying. Usually she is visually distracted and no longer "hears" what is
going on. She has trouble watching someones face while they are talking
without being distracted. She does the best if she is focusing on doing
something with her hands while listening. She doodles or fidgets with
something. >>>
My dad and I are like this. He HAS to take a drawing pad with him at
all times. I used to do that too. Now, I'm just as likely to take yarn
and crochet hooks. I HAVE to have something to do with my hands in
order to focus in that sort of environment. If I don't, I really can't
focus or hear what is being said, my mind will wander away.
>>>Right now she is self medicating with caffiene and is able to ask forhelp with attending to things when she needs to. She adapts to her own
style just like everyone else.>>>
It might help if you drop the term "self medicating". Caffiene isn't
necessarily a medicine. Some people like caffiene, some people don't.
Helping your daughter to see it as something she enjoys, is better than
helping her see it as self medicating. School has clearly done some
damage to how she handles her world. She is learning how to adapt
without it being so pervasive in her life, part of that should include
how she views self medicating. There is some aspect of her or you that
is still seeing a need for medicating if that is in your terminology.
Kelly Nishan
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
Kelly
>She does actually do all of those things. When she was in school she was allowed to use gimp as a part of her plan but the teachers were still resistant to it. Now it doesn't matter as much outside the school setting. She has found ways to adapt that work for her in natural settings but in school none of her compensation strategies were "acceptable".
> She might consider and enjoy something like embroidery, needlepoint, beading
> or crochet instead of just fidgeting. These things might be more socially
> acceptable, giving her a reason for only glancing up only occasionally while
> still being able to listen.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>
Kelly
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/13/2009 9:42 AM, Kelly Nishan wrote:
Roya (my 24 year old), used to tap her pencil or shake her foot or just
wiggle and squirm and whisper to other kids - in school. Like Sandra,
she was considered "bored" or "chatty" rather than learning disabled or
ADHD. The labels were reserved for those whose difficulties impacted the
teacher or kept the child from learning what the teacher was teaching.
Roya loved her teacher and got along well with other kids and was
already a good reader and writer, and she enthusiastically participated
in school/class work and activities - she just couldn't sit still. Her
school didn't have textbooks, lectures, typical homework, or tests, or
grades, and her teacher let her sit on the floor in the leg-space under
the teacher's desk whenever she wanted so that she could wriggle and
squirm around without bothering other kids. She still can't sit still
and do nothing with her hands, so she carries needlepoint or knitting
with her at all times.
-pam
> When she was in school she was allowed to use gimp as a part of her plan but the teachers were still resistant to it.What does that mean?
Roya (my 24 year old), used to tap her pencil or shake her foot or just
wiggle and squirm and whisper to other kids - in school. Like Sandra,
she was considered "bored" or "chatty" rather than learning disabled or
ADHD. The labels were reserved for those whose difficulties impacted the
teacher or kept the child from learning what the teacher was teaching.
Roya loved her teacher and got along well with other kids and was
already a good reader and writer, and she enthusiastically participated
in school/class work and activities - she just couldn't sit still. Her
school didn't have textbooks, lectures, typical homework, or tests, or
grades, and her teacher let her sit on the floor in the leg-space under
the teacher's desk whenever she wanted so that she could wriggle and
squirm around without bothering other kids. She still can't sit still
and do nothing with her hands, so she carries needlepoint or knitting
with her at all times.
-pam
Kelly Nishan
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
Kelly
>>The way I am looking at it is that she chooses to use caffiene as a tool to function better so I refer to it as self medicating. I don't see that as a bad thing or that functioning without it would make her less or worse than with it. Lizzy and I have had some conversations about how some kids might develop a problem with pot or alcohol because getting high feels so much better than how they usually feel they think they need it. I asked her to imagine if she hadn't learned to be ok and cope with feeling anxious and then got high that she might feel that she needed to get high every time she was anxious. For her refering to it as self medicating means she is in control of using it not that it controls how she feels.
> It might help if you drop the term "self medicating". Caffiene isn't
> necessarily a medicine. Some people like caffiene, some people don't.
> Helping your daughter to see it as something she enjoys, is better than
> helping her see it as self medicating. School has clearly done some
> damage to how she handles her world. She is learning how to adapt
> without it being so pervasive in her life, part of that should include
> how she views self medicating. There is some aspect of her or you that
> is still seeing a need for medicating if that is in your terminology.
>
Kelly
Verna
> Because I was "ahead" and "gifted" and "a good student," my hyperMy ability to tolerate those kinds of situations has gotten worse over the years. When I was a kid, I had a great imagination and would day dream my way through classes cause I knew I had to be there. Now, nothing is manditory so I just get up and leave, make up excuses if there are not any real ones. When I get emotionally overwhelmed in anyway I cant sit still. I notice this with one of my sons. He gets embaressed during a movie for example and starts running around the house, hiding, talking, anything to remove himself. I sometimes wonder if that is what happens to some kids in school. But they are not allowed out.
> activity was given the respectful name of "boredom." Those kids who
> were less interested in playing the "do this to get an 'A'" game, or
> who really didn't understand or didn't give a rat's ass, if they had
> the same sort of biological consitution I had, they were bad, and
> troublemakers.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Kelly Nishan" <kel9769@...> wrote:
And I'm reposing the question, because when the last poster did, you replied with a defense. I think most probably understand why you're using the term. But the issue is bigger than just one family making a choice to use that term. The more people think in these terms, the more the paradigm is fed that we all have problems that need some sort of external management.
I've had a friend say that she thinks we're all "on the spectrum." But she wasn't meaning the spectrum of human difference. She meant a medically dysfunctional spectrum, and some people require more intervention than others. I just can't see it as helpful to unschooling to call the morning Starbuck's self-medicating.
Joanna
>My kids and I frequently have conversation about the power of language. You are applying medical terminology to a common beverage, and I think it's worth thinking about whether framing it that way is useful or helpful to your daughter in feeling "normal." I think that language highlights the existence of a "condition." If it helps you to think in terms of managing a condition rather than living and finding what works, then I suppose that language fits.
> --- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@> wrote:
> >>
> > It might help if you drop the term "self medicating". Caffiene isn't
> > necessarily a medicine. Some people like caffiene, some people don't.
> > Helping your daughter to see it as something she enjoys, is better than
> > helping her see it as self medicating. School has clearly done some
> > damage to how she handles her world. She is learning how to adapt
> > without it being so pervasive in her life, part of that should include
> > how she views self medicating. There is some aspect of her or you that
> > is still seeing a need for medicating if that is in your terminology.
> >
>
> The way I am looking at it is that she chooses to use caffiene as a tool to function better so I refer to it as self medicating. I don't see that as a bad thing or that functioning without it would make her less or worse than with it. Lizzy and I have had some conversations about how some kids might develop a problem with pot or alcohol because getting high feels so much better than how they usually feel they think they need it. I asked her to imagine if she hadn't learned to be ok and cope with feeling anxious and then got high that she might feel that she needed to get high every time she was anxious. For her refering to it as self medicating means she is in control of using it not that it controls how she feels.
> Kelly
>
And I'm reposing the question, because when the last poster did, you replied with a defense. I think most probably understand why you're using the term. But the issue is bigger than just one family making a choice to use that term. The more people think in these terms, the more the paradigm is fed that we all have problems that need some sort of external management.
I've had a friend say that she thinks we're all "on the spectrum." But she wasn't meaning the spectrum of human difference. She meant a medically dysfunctional spectrum, and some people require more intervention than others. I just can't see it as helpful to unschooling to call the morning Starbuck's self-medicating.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Uhm..... who's disabled really? The teacher who can't
provide that much to interest with. Ooops. So now it's a bit like
that story by Kurt Vonnegut...-=-
Harrison Bergeron.
Yep. It's like that. <g>
It's not a very long story, in case some here haven't read it:
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
provide that much to interest with. Ooops. So now it's a bit like
that story by Kurt Vonnegut...-=-
Harrison Bergeron.
Yep. It's like that. <g>
It's not a very long story, in case some here haven't read it:
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>>>Lizzy and I have had some conversations about how some kids mightdevelop a problem with pot or alcohol because getting high feels so much
better than how they usually feel they think they need it. I asked her
to imagine if she hadn't learned to be ok and cope with feeling anxious
and then got high that she might feel that she needed to get high every
time she was anxious. For her refering to it as self medicating means
she is in control of using it not that it controls how she feels. >>>
I've known people who drink or smoke pot without developing problems
with it. It has to do more with the reasons we do things. If it is a
form of escapism, then the underlying need to escape from something, is
what needs to be addressed.
It's a good thing to find ways to cope with anxiety other than, finding
ways to escape from it. It's even better if you can find ways to remove
anxiety causing elements in ones life, although there will always be
times of stress at some point or another.
It seems clear that school has been the source of a pattern of anxiety
and stress and the need to deal with it. Now that it isn't a part of
her life, the anxiety and stress should lesson and the patterns can
become less and less. It doesn't help to perpetuate that by using
terminology like self medicating. Perhaps see it as many many different
tools to use in many different situations. Caffiene doesn't even have
to factor into that at all.
Sandra Dodd
-=-The way I am looking at it is that she chooses to use caffiene as a
tool to function better so I refer to it as self medicating. I don't
see that as a bad thing or that functioning without it would make her
less or worse than with it. -=-
"A tool to function better" does not equal "self medicating."
Otherwise, my husband is self-medicating with water when he's doing
sports, and Marty is self-medicating with sunscreen because he's so
fair skinned, and Holly is self-medicating with protein when she's
hungry and feels a headache coming on.
Clinging to phrases in situations in which one could use clarity is
like clinging to mud when people are saying "Let's rinse off the mud
and see what the underlying situation is."
-=- For her refering to it as self medicating means she is in control
of using it not that it controls how she feels. -=-
"Control" isn't something that leads to peace or understanding or
unschooling or a good relationship.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tool to function better so I refer to it as self medicating. I don't
see that as a bad thing or that functioning without it would make her
less or worse than with it. -=-
"A tool to function better" does not equal "self medicating."
Otherwise, my husband is self-medicating with water when he's doing
sports, and Marty is self-medicating with sunscreen because he's so
fair skinned, and Holly is self-medicating with protein when she's
hungry and feels a headache coming on.
Clinging to phrases in situations in which one could use clarity is
like clinging to mud when people are saying "Let's rinse off the mud
and see what the underlying situation is."
-=- For her refering to it as self medicating means she is in control
of using it not that it controls how she feels. -=-
"Control" isn't something that leads to peace or understanding or
unschooling or a good relationship.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
sometimes; it tastes good..." or even "I like the way caffeine
makes me feel more alert..." versus "I can't get through
the day without my caffeine fix."
The latter connotes a problem that could be addressed.
If you are trying to let go of the idea: "My child has a problem
called ADHD" then *maybe* let go of the "self-medicating"
talk.
I say "maybe" because I disagree with this:
the central nervous system and many other parts of the body, too,
in lots of different ways. It increases both mental and physical stamina.
(Until 2004, the International Olympic Committee listed it as a
banned substance.)
To let go of the idea that ADHD is a problem is one thing; to deny
that caffeine is a drug that positively enhances mental focus, on
the other hand, is to lie to oneself (or one's child, as the case may be).
I'm also wondering if "self-medicating" is a bad thing, in and of itself.
Suppose I burn myself, and decide to break a leaf off my aloe plant and
apply the liquid to the burn? Or to return to caffeine: It is a bronchodilator.
I have asthma, and I do not like the side effects of my rescue inhaler, so
I will sometimes self-medicate with caffeine to see if that will relieve my
symptoms. I'm not bothered by the label "asthmatic" (although I am bothered
by the asthma!) so I don't see a problem choosing to self-medicate.
It seems to me that the phrase "self-medicate" only seems negative
if one is carrying negative feelings about the condition one is treating.
Kelly Sturman
> It might help if you drop the term "self medicating".I can certainly hear a difference between "I like to drink Coke
sometimes; it tastes good..." or even "I like the way caffeine
makes me feel more alert..." versus "I can't get through
the day without my caffeine fix."
The latter connotes a problem that could be addressed.
If you are trying to let go of the idea: "My child has a problem
called ADHD" then *maybe* let go of the "self-medicating"
talk.
I say "maybe" because I disagree with this:
> Caffiene isn't necessarily a medicine.Caffeine is very definitely a psychoactive drug; it affects
the central nervous system and many other parts of the body, too,
in lots of different ways. It increases both mental and physical stamina.
(Until 2004, the International Olympic Committee listed it as a
banned substance.)
To let go of the idea that ADHD is a problem is one thing; to deny
that caffeine is a drug that positively enhances mental focus, on
the other hand, is to lie to oneself (or one's child, as the case may be).
I'm also wondering if "self-medicating" is a bad thing, in and of itself.
Suppose I burn myself, and decide to break a leaf off my aloe plant and
apply the liquid to the burn? Or to return to caffeine: It is a bronchodilator.
I have asthma, and I do not like the side effects of my rescue inhaler, so
I will sometimes self-medicate with caffeine to see if that will relieve my
symptoms. I'm not bothered by the label "asthmatic" (although I am bothered
by the asthma!) so I don't see a problem choosing to self-medicate.
It seems to me that the phrase "self-medicate" only seems negative
if one is carrying negative feelings about the condition one is treating.
Kelly Sturman
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/13/2009 11:24 AM, kelly_sturman wrote:
characteristics that make some activities more difficult and others
easier. Talking about medicating really nails it down as a medical
problem - I don't think that's a good idea. Just like "The Gift of
Dyslexia" (if you haven't read the book, google it and read something
about the idea), there isn't anything so much wrong with calling that
set of characteristics by a name, but thinking of it as if it is a
medical diagnosis is misleading and can be harmful.
-pam
> The latter connotes a problem that could be addressed.ADHD isn't a medical problem, anyway. It is a set of personality
> If you are trying to let go of the idea: "My child has a problem
> called ADHD" then*maybe* let go of the "self-medicating"
> talk.
>
characteristics that make some activities more difficult and others
easier. Talking about medicating really nails it down as a medical
problem - I don't think that's a good idea. Just like "The Gift of
Dyslexia" (if you haven't read the book, google it and read something
about the idea), there isn't anything so much wrong with calling that
set of characteristics by a name, but thinking of it as if it is a
medical diagnosis is misleading and can be harmful.
-pam
[email protected]
It is like Vonnegut. Hmmm. But it's Bergeron. I couldn't seem to
find the link without a whole lot of looking. Thanks.
~Katherine
find the link without a whole lot of looking. Thanks.
~Katherine
On May 13, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-. Uhm..... who's disabled really? The teacher who can't
> provide that much to interest with. Ooops. So now it's a bit like
> that story by Kurt Vonnegut...-=-
>
> Harrison Bergeron.
>
> Yep. It's like that. <g>
> It's not a very long story, in case some here haven't read it:
>
> http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html
[email protected]
>>>> It seems to me that the phrase "self-medicate" only seems negativeif one is carrying negative feelings about the condition one is
treating. <<<<
I'm trying to think of a positive way to feel about ADHD.
I refuse to give it the "disease" label. Not hearing well is very
different from saying I'm hearing disabled. It's not a disorder or
disease. It is a condition. Ok. But not really a medical one. For
one thing, my hearing is somewhat intact, and I make good use of what
hearing I have as well as greater use of other senses to compensate for
what I lack with hearing. I suppose I could use pot to enhance my
concentration on hearing and consider that self=medication. I doubt if
doing so continuously enough to do my hearing any good would help the
rest of me function very well. I think it would be too much focus on
hearing at the expense of other things.
Focusing on ADHD (which I consider to be, as I posted earlier, a
superability) at the exclusion of other things is unlikely to help a
person function very well. School focuses on ADHD because they want to
function well at the expense of some of the students. Not a good focus
in my opinion.
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm also wondering if "self-medicating" is a bad thing, in and of
itself.-=-
If there is not "a condition" that needs "medicating," then using that
term is a bad thing in and of itself.
-=-To let go of the idea that ADHD is a problem is one thing; to deny
that caffeine is a drug that positively enhances mental focus, on
the other hand, is to lie to oneself (or one's child, as the case may
be).-=-
"To lie" is putting it overly strong here.
Caffeine is a substance with psychoactive effects. To argue the
definition "a drug" is probably not worth doing. Anyone who wonders
can go and read those debates elsewhere, but because caffeine is found
naturally in certain plants and isn't a chemical additive in coffee or
tea, it's coffee and it's tea. It's in chocolate, too, and chocolate
has other nervous-system benefits. So does tea.
"Using" tea or coffee or chocolate is not the same thought or purpose
or viewpoint as "drinking" or "eating" coffee or chocolate.
What I've learned from my kids growing up so differently their whole
lives is that they can tell what food or drink they need because they
have an awareness of their bodies and the various effects foods have
on their digestion and nerves, and they might choose spinach or fish
or lettuce or ice cream in ways that will balance something in their
moods or functions. That's wonderful. It's amazing! I've been
gradually learning to do it too, but I have voices in my head they
don't have in theirs.
If I say "My kids self-medicate with spinach or fish or lettuce," I'll
be saying 1) there's something wrong with them and 2) they are "using"
a certain food.
What they're doing is eating, with a mindfulness and an awareness most
humans in this culture don't even know exists.
If I were to defend using "self medicates with fish," how would it
help me, my children or anyone on this list?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
itself.-=-
If there is not "a condition" that needs "medicating," then using that
term is a bad thing in and of itself.
-=-To let go of the idea that ADHD is a problem is one thing; to deny
that caffeine is a drug that positively enhances mental focus, on
the other hand, is to lie to oneself (or one's child, as the case may
be).-=-
"To lie" is putting it overly strong here.
Caffeine is a substance with psychoactive effects. To argue the
definition "a drug" is probably not worth doing. Anyone who wonders
can go and read those debates elsewhere, but because caffeine is found
naturally in certain plants and isn't a chemical additive in coffee or
tea, it's coffee and it's tea. It's in chocolate, too, and chocolate
has other nervous-system benefits. So does tea.
"Using" tea or coffee or chocolate is not the same thought or purpose
or viewpoint as "drinking" or "eating" coffee or chocolate.
What I've learned from my kids growing up so differently their whole
lives is that they can tell what food or drink they need because they
have an awareness of their bodies and the various effects foods have
on their digestion and nerves, and they might choose spinach or fish
or lettuce or ice cream in ways that will balance something in their
moods or functions. That's wonderful. It's amazing! I've been
gradually learning to do it too, but I have voices in my head they
don't have in theirs.
If I say "My kids self-medicate with spinach or fish or lettuce," I'll
be saying 1) there's something wrong with them and 2) they are "using"
a certain food.
What they're doing is eating, with a mindfulness and an awareness most
humans in this culture don't even know exists.
If I were to defend using "self medicates with fish," how would it
help me, my children or anyone on this list?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>>> Talking about medicating really nails it down as a medicalproblem - I don't think that's a good idea. Just like "The Gift of
Dyslexia" (if you haven't read the book, google it and read something
about the idea), there isn't anything so much wrong with calling that
set of characteristics by a name, but thinking of it as if it is a
medical diagnosis is misleading and can be harmful. <<<<
I couldn't agree more. I have two sisters with some dyslexia, one more
than the other. Both are very good (better than most people are) at
certain things that they couldn't do as well if the focus was on
dyslexia as a problem. Because they see things differently, more
mobilely, they have abilities to a degree that most people don't. Both
are very astute with people, great with anything visual and they do a
lot of things others can't do. The sister who has the most dyslexia is
better at those things than the one with less dyslexia. As far as I
know, I don't have dyslexic perspectives.
People are different. They have different sets of abilities.
There's a video Pat Robinson posted one time about that very thing.
How about making a bird focus on swimming when they fly better than
most can swim. If you make a cheetah focus on climbing instead of
running like the wind, what will that do really? Should we focus on
medicating things or cast a spell to grant abilities to do anything we
wish others would do. Or do we enjoy who they are?
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-
It is like Vonnegut. Hmmm. But it's Bergeron. I couldn't seem to
find the link without a whole lot of looking. Thanks.
~Katherine-=-
It IS Vonnegut's character Harrison Bergeron. <g>
This link?
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It is like Vonnegut. Hmmm. But it's Bergeron. I couldn't seem to
find the link without a whole lot of looking. Thanks.
~Katherine-=-
It IS Vonnegut's character Harrison Bergeron. <g>
This link?
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Well good grief. I hadn't mixed it up. I thought you were saying
Bergeron was the author. Just checked the link (duh)... yes that's
it. :D
~Katherine
Bergeron was the author. Just checked the link (duh)... yes that's
it. :D
~Katherine
On May 13, 2009, at 3:16 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
-=-It is like Vonnegut. Hmmm. But it's Bergeron. I couldn't seem to
find the link without a whole lot of looking. Thanks.
~Katherine-=-
It IS Vonnegut's character Harrison Bergeron. <g>
This link?
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Gee I just had a big conversation with my sister about become addictive to caffeine.
She is adamant that if anyone drinks caffeine drinks they will become addicted to it.
That people get addicted to candy and things with High Fructose Corn syrup etc.
My kids have Lot of candy and pop in the house to pick and choose whenever they want.
They just drink very little pop and eat candy as much as other stuff.
My 3 year old likes Diet Coke like her Daddy ( she is a daddy's girl) and she will take a couple of tiny sips for it and she is done for the day of for days.
My son likes water and sometimes will drink a little pop.
My sister's kids come over to my house and they go on a scavenger hunt through my cabinets to find candy.
I have told her many times about all we talk here in this list but she goes from agreeing with me and buying them stuff to controlling and saying it is really bad and addictive.
While she does that her kids act crazy about it. My kids would never go crazy about candy, not even after eastern .
My sister gave my kids a beautiful Easter basket full of candy and presents. My kids loved it but only tried some of the candy and left it around the house. My sister's kids ate all my kids' candy while on a visit a few days later. Even stuff that was on the floor!
Why can't people see that?? My sister is so convinced that eating at McDonald will make her addicted that she says she likes McDonald's hamburger over anything else.
That if you drink pop with caffeine ( even once day) will make you addictive to it. And she is the kid that always drank coffee with milk since she was a tine toddler and went years without even liking coffee years later.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
From: kelly_sturman conspicuousfamily@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She is adamant that if anyone drinks caffeine drinks they will become addicted to it.
That people get addicted to candy and things with High Fructose Corn syrup etc.
My kids have Lot of candy and pop in the house to pick and choose whenever they want.
They just drink very little pop and eat candy as much as other stuff.
My 3 year old likes Diet Coke like her Daddy ( she is a daddy's girl) and she will take a couple of tiny sips for it and she is done for the day of for days.
My son likes water and sometimes will drink a little pop.
My sister's kids come over to my house and they go on a scavenger hunt through my cabinets to find candy.
I have told her many times about all we talk here in this list but she goes from agreeing with me and buying them stuff to controlling and saying it is really bad and addictive.
While she does that her kids act crazy about it. My kids would never go crazy about candy, not even after eastern .
My sister gave my kids a beautiful Easter basket full of candy and presents. My kids loved it but only tried some of the candy and left it around the house. My sister's kids ate all my kids' candy while on a visit a few days later. Even stuff that was on the floor!
Why can't people see that?? My sister is so convinced that eating at McDonald will make her addicted that she says she likes McDonald's hamburger over anything else.
That if you drink pop with caffeine ( even once day) will make you addictive to it. And she is the kid that always drank coffee with milk since she was a tine toddler and went years without even liking coffee years later.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
From: kelly_sturman conspicuousfamily@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
my airways, and often in the intuitive way you describe
your kids and their food choices. I am that way with food, too, just
feeling like kefir, or green beans, or anchovies, or blueberries.
I trust my body to know what it needs.
Anyway, as an aside to the original post, I *really* was wondering
if that phrase, "self-medicate" is *always* negative? A "Phrase
to Hear and Avoid?" That's my question; I'm not arguing
in favor of using labels like "ADHD."
The only positive thing I can think of about that label is that when
the kindergarten teacher tried to attach it to my son, it opened up my
husband's mind to my POV, that our children should not be in school,
especially at the tender age of five.
live more mindfully, I am learning to think and speak
more carefully, too, obviously with *lots* more to learn.
The funny thing is, until a couple of days ago, I was
thinking of exploring NVC... because I know I can be
tactless, but the recent, um, can we call that a conversation??...
turned me off.
funny! I was gardening this afternoon, and thinking
this question over, and I realized that "self medicates"
sounded like a positive phrase to me because I was
focusing on self care. Caring for oneself (in both
senses of the word caring) is important and positive.
And taking medicine isn't necessarily a bad thing to
do. And yet, "self medicates" on second thought,
doesn't sound very nice.
So long (for now) and thanks for all the fish!
(I couldn't resist; "self medicates with fish"
sounds straight out of _Hitchhiker's Guide_. :-)
Kelly Sturman
off to play Rokenboks, then Runescape
>But what if there is, as with my asthma? I use caffeine to open
> -=-I'm also wondering if "self-medicating" is a bad thing, in and of
> itself.-=-
>
> If there is not "a condition" that needs "medicating," then using that
> term is a bad thing in and of itself.
my airways, and often in the intuitive way you describe
your kids and their food choices. I am that way with food, too, just
feeling like kefir, or green beans, or anchovies, or blueberries.
I trust my body to know what it needs.
Anyway, as an aside to the original post, I *really* was wondering
if that phrase, "self-medicate" is *always* negative? A "Phrase
to Hear and Avoid?" That's my question; I'm not arguing
in favor of using labels like "ADHD."
The only positive thing I can think of about that label is that when
the kindergarten teacher tried to attach it to my son, it opened up my
husband's mind to my POV, that our children should not be in school,
especially at the tender age of five.
>Sincere apologies; I didn't mean offense. In learning to
> "To lie" is putting it overly strong here.
live more mindfully, I am learning to think and speak
more carefully, too, obviously with *lots* more to learn.
The funny thing is, until a couple of days ago, I was
thinking of exploring NVC... because I know I can be
tactless, but the recent, um, can we call that a conversation??...
turned me off.
> If I were to defend using "self medicates with fish,"Yeah, that "self medicates with fish" does sound really
> how would it help me, my children or anyone on this list?
funny! I was gardening this afternoon, and thinking
this question over, and I realized that "self medicates"
sounded like a positive phrase to me because I was
focusing on self care. Caring for oneself (in both
senses of the word caring) is important and positive.
And taking medicine isn't necessarily a bad thing to
do. And yet, "self medicates" on second thought,
doesn't sound very nice.
So long (for now) and thanks for all the fish!
(I couldn't resist; "self medicates with fish"
sounds straight out of _Hitchhiker's Guide_. :-)
Kelly Sturman
off to play Rokenboks, then Runescape
Sandra Dodd
-=-So long (for now) and thanks for all the fish!
(I couldn't resist; "self medicates with fish"
sounds straight out of _Hitchhiker's Guide_. :-)-=-
I read that book... it has self-medicating dolphins, or
something... :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(I couldn't resist; "self medicates with fish"
sounds straight out of _Hitchhiker's Guide_. :-)-=-
I read that book... it has self-medicating dolphins, or
something... :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>>>My sister is so convinced that eating at McDonald will make heraddicted that she says she likes McDonald's hamburger over anything
else.<<<<
Really? That's funny. I used to think McDonald's fries were the best
thing in the world and once I got out on my own I bought fries often,
and grew to hate the grease on them and if I get them now I'm usually
sorry (gross). I love the salt and potatoes, hate whatever they use
for oil. It tastes greasy to me. I thought the burgers were great
until I had a number of them and thought they tasted like cardboard. I
am not sure if this is due to the introduction of a new line of burgers
where perhaps McD's uses a better source of meat for a time and then
switches to a lesser quality ... or what! Maybe yum was just all in my
head. Have you noticed that they stopped providing courtesy trash cans
in drivethru's? Maybe all that courtesy and providing better quality
is too costly in this economic climate.
~Katherine