kelly_sturman

Okay, so I am thinking more about letting
a child know when his behavior is not
nice. Here is an example that happened in
our family just a few days ago.

One DS is VERY loud. Always. A la
"This is Spinal Tap," his volume knob
is set at 11.

And it was 11 p.m. We were camping,
and I suspected that some of our neighboring
campers might be trying to sleep. I *knew* that
local noise ordinances were in
effect between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m.

I gently whispered to all the children, but
to DS in particular, "People around us are
trying to sleep. If we whisper, maybe we can
keep talking without bothering people around
us who are trying to sleep."

But being loud is a habit DS has, so he'd
whisper for a few moments, then forget and
get loud again.

I felt my body going tense. I felt all sorts of
childhood, family of origin triggers flipping.
I *knew* he wasn't being loud to defy me.
But after repeating the same message:
"Being quiet now is a way to be nice to the
other people sharing this space..." several
times, I was feeling like, "I am not being
heard." And that trigged painful childhood
memories of parents who really believed
"children should be seen and not heard."
Or, more like, "better if children are neither
seen nor heard." Anyway, I knew that my
emotional reaction was mine, and not so
much to do with DS.

Still, the people around us who were trying
to sleep deserved to have quiet at that hour,
and DS was not hearing that message, no
matter how many times nor in how many
different ways I phrased it.

Finally, I said to him, "Look, we have a real
problem here, because you are not remembering
to be quiet. Let's figure out how to solve this
problem. One idea I have is that tomorrow,
we could go to sleep earlier than we usually
do. If we are asleep, we won't be noisy.
What ideas do you have?"

Nobody had any other ideas. But DS did
get quiet after that, and he was quiet the
next night with one reminder.

But I felt like my "solution" sounded like
a threat. I didn't mean it that way, but
it felt that way to me, with my mother's
voice echoing in my head, "Well, if you
can't be nice, you can just go to bed early."

And it felt like a threat to DS, too, given that
he quieted down after I said it.

I do not want to be a threatening parent.

How do I do better?

Kelly Sturman

Sandra Dodd

-=-And it felt like a threat to DS, too, given that
he quieted down after I said it. -=-

Maybe because you said it several different ways (which I don't think
I would have done), he actually was making a choices based on your
persuasion.

-=-I felt my body going tense. I felt all sorts of childhood, family
of origin triggers flipping..... Anyway, I knew that my emotional
reaction was mine, and not so much to do with DS.-=-

Your team was losing, though, if the two of you together couldn't be
quiet when other people were trying to sleep. If we're helping our
children live in the world, they need to live in the world like
people. Good people, preferably. Thoughtful, considerate people.


-=-Finally, I said to him, "Look, we have a real
problem here, because you are not remembering
to be quiet. Let's figure out how to solve this
problem. One idea I have is that tomorrow,
we could go to sleep earlier than we usually
do. If we are asleep, we won't be noisy. -=-

Why not sleep right then? Would that have seemed lie a threat to
you? I don't get this "seemed like a threat" thing. If he couldn't
be quiet, it wasn't okay for him to still be there talking loudly.
Not okay. If the deal is sleep or talk as loud as you want, then
sleep.

You didn't threaten to hit him. You're telling him what EVERYone
there knew and was abiding by. Sleep or quiet. Anyone who stays
awake howling and yelling when others are trying to sleep is being a
prick. So there's the crazy end of it--purposely yelling and firing
guns or fireworks or whatever when others are camping. If a child
AND a mother can't be quiet, it's not as loud as guns and howling at
the moon, but it's closer to that than it is to sleeping.

-=-But I felt like my "solution" sounded like
a threat. I didn't mean it that way, but
it felt that way to me, with my mother's
voice echoing in my head, "Well, if you
can't be nice, you can just go to bed early."-=-

I assume your mom's "go to bed" was punishment. That's one reason I
think it's bad to send kids to their rooms as punishment, because it
makes them want to be places other than their rooms. Same with
beds. If kids "have to" go to bed, theyll see not-bed as joy, as
reward.

But for kids who haven't ever been punished with bed, it's not a "time
out" place, and it's not a "you're here because you were bad" place.
It's a soft warm place.

Sandra

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kelly_sturman

> Why not sleep right then?

Actually, we *were* getting ready for bed, but I
wanted to stay up long enough to check the kids
for ticks rather than risk them contracting
a tick-borne disease. (There were lots of deer ticks
where we were camping, and four kids to check, and
if you don't check at least once every 24 hours, the risk
of contracting a disease goes up.)

>Would that have seemed like a threat to
> you? I don't get this "seemed like a threat" thing.

"Do what I say or go to bed" rings in my
mind as a threat, for exactly the reason
you mentioned, about how I was treated
as a child. Sent to my room/to bed as punishment,
sometimes for doing something annoying, but
often just for being a child desiring my parents'
attention, which they did not want to give.

Complicating matters is that he is 9 years
old, only been in the family for 10 months,
and comes from a place where he was treated
very badly. He is learning that we don't hit here,
which is different from his past experience, but he
still reacts very strongly to things like tense body
language, because in the past, tense body language
would be followed by physical abuse, and my
body was tense in that moment. 10 months is
a short time to let go of 8 years of bad experiences.
I don't like to frighten him. It was not intentional,
but my body language frightened him. I could
feel that.

So there was my childhood experience resonating
and *his* past experience resonating, and so...
felt like a threat.

I am hearing it is okay to tell a child, "That
behavior is not nice." That is is not only *okay*
to do so, it is a parent's responsibility to do so.
That is obvious in conventional parenting, but
I am having a hard time balancing not being
arbitrarily bossy yet still being authoritative...
not sure if that is the right word... in a
caring way when a situation calls for it.

Okay. Very good. Going off now to absorb that
and also to re-read "balance" and also "if/then."

Kelly

Sandra Dodd

-=-"Do what I say or go to bed" rings in my
mind as a threat, for exactly the reason
you mentioned, about how I was treated
as a child. -=-

If that was "Do what I said because I'm the mom," that's different
from "The only way we can stay up and still be courteous is if nobody
else knows we're awake, because we're so quiet."

Then if he can't be quiet it's not your "say so" that makes it bed
time. It's the desire for your team to be courteous.

When I would say to Marty "You can use the car but I need it back by
8:00," he would come back before 8:00 because I needed it. I never
once said "I need the car" when I did not actually need the car. He
believed me. Had my plans changed I would've called and offered to
let him stay longer if he wanted to.

So with sleep, if it's not arbitrary, and if he wants you to agree to
future late night activities, he might see it as simple and logical
and not threatening control.

Sandra

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Pam Sorooshian

On 5/1/2009 3:42 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> When I would say to Marty "You can use the car but I need it back by
> 8:00," he would come back before 8:00 because I needed it. I never
> once said "I need the car" when I did not actually need the car. He
> believed me. Had my plans changed I would've called and offered to
> let him stay longer if he wanted to.
>
>

Also, we don't set our kids up for failure. If Sandra KNEW that Marty
was a kid who couldn't keep track of time and would very likely not get
the car back on time, you wouldn't send him off with the car and a
request to be back by 8:00.

I'm thinking that if I had a kid who really could not be quiet at night,
I wouldn't be camping out in a place where there were other people
trying to sleep.

I think the body stiffening/frustration/anger comes from feeling stuck -
"What do I do now?" That is when some parents resort to threats and
spankings.

A good alternative is planning ahead better. John Holt talked,
somewhere, about the ability to run through a scenario of what is likely
to happen, how things are likely to work out. He talked about how that
ability is so important in life, but that nobody even talks about it in
schools.

So - my question is: What did you think was going to happen late at
night? You know he is loud and has no volume control. Why did this seem
to take you by surprise that night?

-pam

kelly_sturman

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> So - my question is: What did you think was going to happen late at
> night? You know he is loud and has no volume control. Why did this seem
> to take you by surprise that night?
>
> -pam

Good question! And plan ahead is good advice.

In fact, we were camping at an unschoolers' conference,
the first one we've ever gone to. We were very
excited to go, and we had a great time, met
wonderful people, heard interesting speakers,
and made friends.

But back to the answer: I noticed that the lodges
--another sleeping option--were divided into places
for "early birds" and "night owls." With 20/20
hindsight, I see that we should have chosen a
"night owl" lodge. (Maybe ticks would have been
less of a problem in the lodge, too!) I also assumed
that quiet hours would begin at 11, b/c that has
been my past experience with campgrounds.

Also, I don't really notice DS's noise level here,
b/c it doesn't bother me or anybody else; we
are all night owls and our house is surrounded
by fraternity houses, so even if things got
*really* noisy here, we still would be quiet compared
to the neighbors.

To put it more succinctly, I didn't plan ahead
properly, b/c I was excited and I just assumed
that everything would work out fine, and I didn't
even notice the problem was a problem until we
were in that particular environment.

As it turned out, people were *very* understanding
and accepting. I talked to my neighbors in the
other tents the next day, to see if they had been
disturbed and to apologize if so. Two hadn't heard
any ruckus--one had planned ahead with
headphones--and the third was just not
bothered. But not everybody is going to react
like these folks reacted, so "plan ahead" is
really good advice.

Kelly

Sandra Dodd

-=-Also, we don't set our kids up for failure. If Sandra KNEW that Marty
was a kid who couldn't keep track of time and would very likely not get
the car back on time, you wouldn't send him off with the car and a
request to be back by 8:00.-=-

True. It was an honest condition of sharing a car. It wasn't
arbitrary, and it was "to train him" or anything.

When we just had one computer, years ago, Kirby would stay up late to
play computer games. By the time he had his very own computer, he was
playing online RPGs and staying up for that (and Marty would be up on
mine playing the same game). They've never stayed up just for the
sake of staying up, but once Marty had a friend over when they were 10
or 11 0r 12 and the other kid found out there wasn't "a bedtime" and
he wanted to stay up until the sun came up. Marty was willing to try,
just because his overnight guest wanted to, but for the last couple of
hours, there was nothing to do. The kid simply wanted to see the sun
rise.

I've seen the sunrise because I stayed up talking with people, or
because I slept early and woke up early, or because we sang at a
summer campout until there was light in the sky and then I cleaned up
after the singing party. In those cases, seeing the sun rise was
incidental to doing something.

Staying up late, for kids who have options, is incidental to the
interesting thing they're doing. If there's nothing to do, they'll
probably go to sleep.

It's like eating. If a kid who's had choices eats ice cream, it will
be because after considering several options, ice cream sounds good.
A kid who's been controlled might eat ice cream because it seems
shocking, or a symbol of wild freedom.

Sandra

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Joanna Murphy

> Complicating matters is that he is 9 years
> old, only been in the family for 10 months,
> and comes from a place where he was treated
> very badly.

Cut yourself some slack! You are still obviously getting used to eachother's rhythms and sensitivities.

I wanted to reiterate the team idea, and how if you are thinking in terms of a common goal of success for your team, you'll be o.k. Sometimes there are limits that we have to help our kids understand and live with to get along.

The other thing that has been a revelation to me in my unschooling journey is the value of talking with my kids in advance. We routinely have a short "strategy" session in the car on the way to events. I've given some thought to what's coming and what is likely to present a challenge to one or more of us in some way, and we talk about it in advance. Sometimes we make deals about stuff, if need be. Sometimes it's to make someone aware of something they may not have thought of. Sometimes it's to remind someone of an issue they are working on with a friend, etc.

A common example is that my dd has a really hard time leaving the fun, so I will remind her in advance that I will let her play as long as possible, but then when I let her know it's time to go it's because we really do have to go. When I remember these conversations it always goes more smoothly--less hiding and running off!

But, all in all, I have found that pre-conversation seems to be completely overlooked and totally undervalued in conventional parenting. You can work to set things up for success rather than just reacting after things have already begun going wrong.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-But, all in all, I have found that pre-conversation seems to be
completely overlooked and totally undervalued in conventional
parenting. You can work to set things up for success rather than just
reacting after things have already begun going wrong.-=-

Post conversation is helpful too.
Review how things went. If there's something very cool your child
did, mention it in a conversational way as you would with an adult,
rather than in a "good job!" or "I was so proud of you" way. If
something could have done better, one way to bring it up is to say "Is
there something I could have done to make it easier for... [whatever
it was]?"

Ten the next pre-conversation for a similar event or visit can involve
the review of that, once you've all had some time to think about it.

We did this when the kids were little, and I see them doing it now
with and for each other and friends. Holly was just planning the heck
out of a three-day garage sale. One of the girls has been in our
lives since before Holly was born. Her mom and I were friends. Kirby
and her older sister played together as toddlers and were Ninja Turtle
fan-buddies together. The other girl is someone Marty had a great
crush on, and then Bo had a relationship with for a while. The other
two girls had their own special relationship for a while; offered
Marty a threesome he turned down. Now the garage sale is at the home
where one of them is living with an older man with a five or so year
old son. So even without the logistics of pricing and displaying
their sale items and making sure there were signs out and they had
snacks, the odds of these three young women getting along cheerily and
without verbal incident for three long, hot days was nothing to bet
on. And part of Holly's preparations was to remind herself of these
kinds of factors and mentally prepare herself to be sure and eat, to
be extra patient. To go in the house if she was feeling frustrated
and to make snacks or get ice water.

The first day went well, except I got a text mid afternoon saying "I
should have listened to you. I got sunburned."

If a sunburn is the worst of it, I'm relieved. :-) All these girls
can be suddenly expressive of their ill-considered opinions.

Sandra

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