Aha moment(s)! Double trouble - Asleep to TV
DaBreeze21
Sandra,thanks for the post this morning about my monkey platter and blog. You made more morning!! I have had yet another aha moment this morning that was spurred by an incident last night.
I have repeatedly asked about sleep issues here. My daughter is almost 3 and has challenged me from the start. I have pretty much always followed her lead, but have struggled internally with what is "right" and what my decisions are based on.
Last night it was almost midnight and yet again my little girl was still awake -- and this time without a nap! It seems that once she makes it over a certain hump she has the ability to go for a long time. I think she is like a sleep camel! I am pretty sure that she was overtired too.
We did get into bed, had dim lighting, told stories and nursed a couple of times. But no sleep. So she wanted to watch a video (Care Bears!) I was tired, but it was fine and I was relaxing reading a book.
My husband came in and decided it was "Time for bed!" Turned off the TV. Marisol was SO upset. Crying and screaming, and told us EXACTLY what she wanted. "The show isn't over! I want to watch it!"
I was very angry. I felt that we were happy and not bothering anyone (my husband!) and I much prefer it when she goes to sleep peacefully. Yet I still had a nagging sensation that he was "right" in some ways. She was clearly TIRED -- went to sleep after only 5 minutes! And the "mainstream parenting voice" in my head thought she SHOULD be asleep, am I doing her a disservice? DH also mentioned that she hardly has "any boundaries" as justification for sometimes "laying down the law".
This morning I woke up early and hungry (I am 6 months pregnant!)And once I am awake my mind is ready to go. So I am lying there thinking. And wondering if I should post my questions/thoughts here... but suddenly I am able to work through it on my own -- and it really makes sense! And I feel totally ready to talk about it with my husband! Not confrontational at all -- just calm and happy. And I do totally understand his point of view and know that he has no idea where I am coming from because he is not the one reading all this. He has just been awesome at following my lead and letting me do things the way I want, but sometimes (like he last 2 weeks of business school!) he just reaches a breaking point. It is time to discuss some things with him -- not even as "Unschooling" but as a life and parenting philosphy.
So I wanted to share my thoughts this morning -- I made a little outline on Word and it is much shorter than this post I swear! I think it will help me explain things and also help me when I am not sure what the "right" answer is to how to react to certain things. So here it is:
Thoughts/words/philosophy of Unschooling (how I want to parent regardless of whether my child does to school or not!)
Key words:
Choice, learning, relationships, joy/happiness, TRUST
What do we really want for our child/ren?
To learn to make good choices
To be happy
To have good relationships
Mainstream parenting is often about modifying behavior so the child does what YOU want in that moment
When children are babies â" attachment parenting â" meeting needs â" LISTENING to baby
Soâ¦
ï When they cry we listen â" nurse, hold, change diaper etc.
What are children learning when we donât listen to them and decide that âwe know bestâ?
ï That mom and dad arenât listening
ï That they donât care what I want
ï That I donât know how to make decisions for myself
This is a LIFE philosophy, not just about school or no school. It is NOT the easiest way to parent. The child does NOT always make the ârightâ decision every time, it is a process of learning to trust themselves and US (nurtures our relationship and their learning about themselves and the world).
I thought it was pretty good!
Susan
I have repeatedly asked about sleep issues here. My daughter is almost 3 and has challenged me from the start. I have pretty much always followed her lead, but have struggled internally with what is "right" and what my decisions are based on.
Last night it was almost midnight and yet again my little girl was still awake -- and this time without a nap! It seems that once she makes it over a certain hump she has the ability to go for a long time. I think she is like a sleep camel! I am pretty sure that she was overtired too.
We did get into bed, had dim lighting, told stories and nursed a couple of times. But no sleep. So she wanted to watch a video (Care Bears!) I was tired, but it was fine and I was relaxing reading a book.
My husband came in and decided it was "Time for bed!" Turned off the TV. Marisol was SO upset. Crying and screaming, and told us EXACTLY what she wanted. "The show isn't over! I want to watch it!"
I was very angry. I felt that we were happy and not bothering anyone (my husband!) and I much prefer it when she goes to sleep peacefully. Yet I still had a nagging sensation that he was "right" in some ways. She was clearly TIRED -- went to sleep after only 5 minutes! And the "mainstream parenting voice" in my head thought she SHOULD be asleep, am I doing her a disservice? DH also mentioned that she hardly has "any boundaries" as justification for sometimes "laying down the law".
This morning I woke up early and hungry (I am 6 months pregnant!)And once I am awake my mind is ready to go. So I am lying there thinking. And wondering if I should post my questions/thoughts here... but suddenly I am able to work through it on my own -- and it really makes sense! And I feel totally ready to talk about it with my husband! Not confrontational at all -- just calm and happy. And I do totally understand his point of view and know that he has no idea where I am coming from because he is not the one reading all this. He has just been awesome at following my lead and letting me do things the way I want, but sometimes (like he last 2 weeks of business school!) he just reaches a breaking point. It is time to discuss some things with him -- not even as "Unschooling" but as a life and parenting philosphy.
So I wanted to share my thoughts this morning -- I made a little outline on Word and it is much shorter than this post I swear! I think it will help me explain things and also help me when I am not sure what the "right" answer is to how to react to certain things. So here it is:
Thoughts/words/philosophy of Unschooling (how I want to parent regardless of whether my child does to school or not!)
Key words:
Choice, learning, relationships, joy/happiness, TRUST
What do we really want for our child/ren?
To learn to make good choices
To be happy
To have good relationships
Mainstream parenting is often about modifying behavior so the child does what YOU want in that moment
When children are babies â" attachment parenting â" meeting needs â" LISTENING to baby
Soâ¦
ï When they cry we listen â" nurse, hold, change diaper etc.
What are children learning when we donât listen to them and decide that âwe know bestâ?
ï That mom and dad arenât listening
ï That they donât care what I want
ï That I donât know how to make decisions for myself
This is a LIFE philosophy, not just about school or no school. It is NOT the easiest way to parent. The child does NOT always make the ârightâ decision every time, it is a process of learning to trust themselves and US (nurtures our relationship and their learning about themselves and the world).
I thought it was pretty good!
Susan
DaBreeze21
Replying to my own (long) post here <g>
Any other suggestions of things to add on/improve would be great! For me it is how I can apply it to any "problem" or issue.
Example: Last night my daughter may have been overtired and TV may be more of a stimulator than help to her falling asleep. (I am this way -- if I start a show I HAVE to watch it, can't fall asleep no matter how tired). But I can help her over time learn when she is tired/needs sleep, and how she goes to sleep best while still respecting her ability to make her own choices.
Ok, done rambling!
Susan
> Sandra,thanks for the post this morning about my monkey platter and blog. You made more morning!!Oops -- meant to say "you made MY morning!"
> Key words:Also thought I should add to my "outline" that all of this is within the realm of safety of child/others and respect of others.
>
> Choice, learning, relationships, joy/happiness, TRUST
>
> What do we really want for our child/ren?
> To learn to make good choices
> To be happy
> To have good relationships
>
> Mainstream parenting is often about modifying behavior so the child does what YOU want in that moment
>
> When children are babies �" attachment parenting �" meeting needs �" LISTENING to baby
> Soâ¦
> ï When they cry we listen �" nurse, hold, change diaper etc.
>
> What are children learning when we donât listen to them and decide that âwe know bestâ?
> ï That mom and dad arenât listening
> ï That they donât care what I want
> ï That I donât know how to make decisions for myself
>
> This is a LIFE philosophy, not just about school or no school. It is NOT the easiest way to parent. The child does NOT always make the ârightâ decision every time, it is a process of learning to trust themselves and US (nurtures our relationship and their learning about themselves and the world).
Any other suggestions of things to add on/improve would be great! For me it is how I can apply it to any "problem" or issue.
Example: Last night my daughter may have been overtired and TV may be more of a stimulator than help to her falling asleep. (I am this way -- if I start a show I HAVE to watch it, can't fall asleep no matter how tired). But I can help her over time learn when she is tired/needs sleep, and how she goes to sleep best while still respecting her ability to make her own choices.
Ok, done rambling!
Susan
Sandra Dodd
-=-Oops -- meant to say "you made MY morning!"-=-
I didn't even see the typos. I saw what you meant to write.
-=-Last night my daughter may have been overtired and TV may be more
of a stimulator than help to her falling asleep. (I am this way -- if
I start a show I HAVE to watch it, can't fall asleep no matter how
tired). But I can help her over time learn when she is tired/needs
sleep, and how she goes to sleep best while still respecting her
ability to make her own choices.-=-
Use a DVD then, and never live TV for sleeping. Or if you're watching
a show you can record, promise to see the rest the next day if she
falls asleep.
Screaming when someone else is needing to sleep is no good at all.
The way we're talking about unschooling here is predicated on the idea
that people are not sleeping in one-room dwellings, that they have
electricity and doors that lock and they're not in a war zone in which
blackouts are necessary for survival.
So assuming there IS more than one room, don't put the baby in where
the dad needs to sleep. Bring her in asleep, maybe. Or if the dad
needs to sleep so he can go to work, let him have a bed just for
sleeping!
Make the first priority that everyone gets to sleep. If a child is
too young to understand that sleeping needs quiet (and the neighbors
need quiet) then she's too young to make any decisions about sleeping.
I know that the experiences I had with my kids and the things I
figured out have been twisted and caused arguments in some families
over the years, but it was because (I think) people read here that the
kids went to sleep when they were tired, and assumed that I was saying
"Do you want to go to sleep now?" No, they were falling asleep
because they wanted to.
It's the change of rules that causes the wild desire to stay awake,
and it's a misunderstanding of these ideas that causes people to
somehow convey to a child (of ANY age) that she has a right to be
awake (and get up, or yell) when she wants to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I didn't even see the typos. I saw what you meant to write.
-=-Last night my daughter may have been overtired and TV may be more
of a stimulator than help to her falling asleep. (I am this way -- if
I start a show I HAVE to watch it, can't fall asleep no matter how
tired). But I can help her over time learn when she is tired/needs
sleep, and how she goes to sleep best while still respecting her
ability to make her own choices.-=-
Use a DVD then, and never live TV for sleeping. Or if you're watching
a show you can record, promise to see the rest the next day if she
falls asleep.
Screaming when someone else is needing to sleep is no good at all.
The way we're talking about unschooling here is predicated on the idea
that people are not sleeping in one-room dwellings, that they have
electricity and doors that lock and they're not in a war zone in which
blackouts are necessary for survival.
So assuming there IS more than one room, don't put the baby in where
the dad needs to sleep. Bring her in asleep, maybe. Or if the dad
needs to sleep so he can go to work, let him have a bed just for
sleeping!
Make the first priority that everyone gets to sleep. If a child is
too young to understand that sleeping needs quiet (and the neighbors
need quiet) then she's too young to make any decisions about sleeping.
I know that the experiences I had with my kids and the things I
figured out have been twisted and caused arguments in some families
over the years, but it was because (I think) people read here that the
kids went to sleep when they were tired, and assumed that I was saying
"Do you want to go to sleep now?" No, they were falling asleep
because they wanted to.
It's the change of rules that causes the wild desire to stay awake,
and it's a misunderstanding of these ideas that causes people to
somehow convey to a child (of ANY age) that she has a right to be
awake (and get up, or yell) when she wants to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>NOT the easiest way to parent. The child does NOT always make the
> This is a LIFE philosophy, not just about school or no school. It is
ârightâ decision every time, it is a process of learning
to trust themselves and US (nurtures our relationship and their learning
about themselves and the world).
>This is exactly why unschooling works best if you apply it to your whole
life and not just academics! You can try to only unschool academics,
but it won't be as wonderful, and you won't get all the relationship
benefits that you would if you applied all the ideas to your whole life!
And honestly, I don't even know how you really could. Once you start
questioning why you do things, it overflows into every part of life. If
you suddenly come to a metaphorical brick wall, that's where you need to
start dismantling bricks, not stop and say, "see, I knew this wouldn't
work!" or my personal favorite "that may work for your family, but it
won't work for our unique family situation, with our unique kids with
their unique set of needs."
Although, it isn't the easiest way to parent, it does get easier and
easier, and by the time you have teens, they are so awesome and the
rewards of having parented that way, really pay off. I SEE the
difference all around me! My teenager is awesome! None of the
traditional parents around us, have that relationship and awesomeness
that we have, their lives are fraught with tension and disharmony and
arguing. It seems these kind of parents think that kids will stay
little and easy to control, but they don't, they get minds of their own
and ideas of their own, and they WILL do what they want to regardless of
what kind of control is put into place to prevent them. It's all soooo
reactionary! We don't live in reactionary, we live in harmony and
happiness! That's the reward of parenting this way!
DaBreeze21
Wanted to clear up a few things...
Susan
> Use a DVD then, and never live TV for sleeping. Or if you're watchingWe do use a DVD sometimes, and what she was watching was actually a VHS video. I'm not sure I understand "live TV for sleeping". Sometimes she goes to sleep watching a show, and sometimes she doesn't. Sometimes it seems like she is really tired but staying up to watch the show. This is not because we have ever limited TV before. I don't see how telling her "no" you can't watch this show now because it is too late, you are too tired, etc. goes along with unschooling.
> a show you can record, promise to see the rest the next day if she
> falls asleep.
> Screaming when someone else is needing to sleep is no good at all.She wasn't screaming until the TV was turned off without any input from either of us. Prior to that we had been in the bedroom and my husband out in the living area. We were being fairly quiet and the door was closed. My husband was awake doing work for school. Marisol was talking to herself a lot.
> the dad needs to sleep. Bring her in asleep, maybe. Or if the dad
> needs to sleep so he can go to work, let him have a bed just for
> sleeping!
>This I find interesting. I will compare it to TV. I remember last year asking when I child was "old enough" to decide when/how much TV they should watch or something to that extent. I believe that I pretty much got the answer that they can decide for themselves... how do you draw the line, what is the artificial barrier of "too young". Just curious because I do believe that sleep is something that can be encouraged, not forced. Being quiet has not been an issue for us -- being up late has been the issue.
> Make the first priority that everyone gets to sleep. If a child is
> too young to understand that sleeping needs quiet (and the neighbors
> need quiet) then she's too young to make any decisions about sleeping.
>
> It's the change of rules that causes the wild desire to stay awake,There has not been a change of rules and we have not had a problem with getting up and being loud at inappropriate times.
> and it's a misunderstanding of these ideas that causes people to
> somehow convey to a child (of ANY age) that she has a right to be
> awake (and get up, or yell) when she wants to.
Susan
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't see how telling her "no" you can't watch this show now
because it is too late, you are too tired, etc. goes along with
unschooling.-=-
Then stop thinking about unschooling and start looking at real life
and the relationships and the principles involved.
"Unschooling" doesn't give anyone a license to do anything different
at all. If a parent decides to give up arbitrary rules in order to go
with decisions made for real reasons, then they need to move to seeing
the REAL elements of the situations.
Sleep shouldn't be about learning to sleep, nor about sleeping for
eight hours exactly regardless of the activities of the day before or
after the sleep, nor should it be about the discipline of learning to
fall asleep on command in one's own bed in one's own room.
So if that's true, what SHOULD sleep be about?
I think that's what you're missing, maybe, in looking at this situation.
-=-We do use a DVD sometimes, and what she was watching was actually a
VHS video.-=-
Then it could've been paused and be RIGHT IN THAT PLACE when she woke
up again.
It wasn't like she was watching something that she'd never see the end
of if it were turned off.
-=-She wasn't screaming until the TV was turned off without any input
from either of us.-=-
But she was screaming. If she's little enough to scream in the middle
of the night, she's too young to be awake in the middle of the night.
-=-Marisol was talking to herself a lot.-=-
This is a very minor element (my question is), but did you suggest it
was time to be quiet because neighbors were sleeping and her dad was
studying (or whatever)?
-=-This I find interesting. I will compare it to TV. I remember last
year asking when I child was "old enough" to decide when/how much TV
they should watch or something to that extent. I believe that I pretty
much got the answer that they can decide for themselves... -=-
The "pretty much answer" summary doesn't cover any principles, as
you've stated it here. It makes a new rule. It goes from the
parents deciding to the child deciding--from the parents dictating to
the child dictating.
It's possible you either misunderstood the "let her watch TV" advice,
or weren't offered the principles behind what it is.
-=-Being quiet has not been an issue for us -- being up late has been
the issue. -=-
Screaming is an issue.
http://sandradodd.com/latenightlearning
My kids were and are up late a lot, but not noisily so (not usually...
<g>).
Helping kids know of expectations at different times and in different
places is necessary when parents aren't going to just use the set of
rules and punishments being passed around in society in general.
But would your husband have turned off the TV if you were watching
it? That's worth talking about in private sometime. He could have at
least waited for a good stopping place, or offered to sleep elsewhere,
or asked if you two could've taken the video elsewhere.
I hope you didn't get bad TV advice from this list. I'm sorry you got
it somewhere (or understood it without clarification somewhere). If
TV is treated as another resource, as any toy or book or tool, it
still has its own realities. It's noisy. While a book might be okay
to read in bed at night, a drum set wouldn't be a good nighttime
toy. My kids always had choices of things to do, but at midnight
painting on paper at the table would've been fine. Painting on the
wall of the shed with tempera would NOT have been okay. Time and
place. I didn't care if they ran screaming through the sprinker on a
sunny afternoon, but the same behavior at 10:00 at night would not
have been cool.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
because it is too late, you are too tired, etc. goes along with
unschooling.-=-
Then stop thinking about unschooling and start looking at real life
and the relationships and the principles involved.
"Unschooling" doesn't give anyone a license to do anything different
at all. If a parent decides to give up arbitrary rules in order to go
with decisions made for real reasons, then they need to move to seeing
the REAL elements of the situations.
Sleep shouldn't be about learning to sleep, nor about sleeping for
eight hours exactly regardless of the activities of the day before or
after the sleep, nor should it be about the discipline of learning to
fall asleep on command in one's own bed in one's own room.
So if that's true, what SHOULD sleep be about?
I think that's what you're missing, maybe, in looking at this situation.
-=-We do use a DVD sometimes, and what she was watching was actually a
VHS video.-=-
Then it could've been paused and be RIGHT IN THAT PLACE when she woke
up again.
It wasn't like she was watching something that she'd never see the end
of if it were turned off.
-=-She wasn't screaming until the TV was turned off without any input
from either of us.-=-
But she was screaming. If she's little enough to scream in the middle
of the night, she's too young to be awake in the middle of the night.
-=-Marisol was talking to herself a lot.-=-
This is a very minor element (my question is), but did you suggest it
was time to be quiet because neighbors were sleeping and her dad was
studying (or whatever)?
-=-This I find interesting. I will compare it to TV. I remember last
year asking when I child was "old enough" to decide when/how much TV
they should watch or something to that extent. I believe that I pretty
much got the answer that they can decide for themselves... -=-
The "pretty much answer" summary doesn't cover any principles, as
you've stated it here. It makes a new rule. It goes from the
parents deciding to the child deciding--from the parents dictating to
the child dictating.
It's possible you either misunderstood the "let her watch TV" advice,
or weren't offered the principles behind what it is.
-=-Being quiet has not been an issue for us -- being up late has been
the issue. -=-
Screaming is an issue.
http://sandradodd.com/latenightlearning
My kids were and are up late a lot, but not noisily so (not usually...
<g>).
Helping kids know of expectations at different times and in different
places is necessary when parents aren't going to just use the set of
rules and punishments being passed around in society in general.
But would your husband have turned off the TV if you were watching
it? That's worth talking about in private sometime. He could have at
least waited for a good stopping place, or offered to sleep elsewhere,
or asked if you two could've taken the video elsewhere.
I hope you didn't get bad TV advice from this list. I'm sorry you got
it somewhere (or understood it without clarification somewhere). If
TV is treated as another resource, as any toy or book or tool, it
still has its own realities. It's noisy. While a book might be okay
to read in bed at night, a drum set wouldn't be a good nighttime
toy. My kids always had choices of things to do, but at midnight
painting on paper at the table would've been fine. Painting on the
wall of the shed with tempera would NOT have been okay. Time and
place. I didn't care if they ran screaming through the sprinker on a
sunny afternoon, but the same behavior at 10:00 at night would not
have been cool.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DaBreeze21
>I thought sleep should be about sleeping when your tired. You don't believe for some people there is a "learning" curve? If I am actively involved in something -- a book, a movie etc. I can stay up WAY later than I SHOULD. My body is telling me I'm tired but I can keep my mind awake. Why would this be different for children? Especially if they are LIKE you/predisposed to similar traits in some ways? Sometimes I make the better choice and go to sleep when I'm tired, and sometimes I stay up and pay the price the next day.
> So if that's true, what SHOULD sleep be about?
> I think that's what you're missing, maybe, in looking at this situation.
>All true, and she did watch the rest today.
> -=-We do use a DVD sometimes, and what she was watching was actually a
> VHS video.-=-
>
> Then it could've been paused and be RIGHT IN THAT PLACE when she woke
> up again.
> It wasn't like she was watching something that she'd never see the end
> of if it were turned off.
>I'm not sure if I completely understand this statement. She was really upset and was crying. We normally DO let her watch TV and fall asleep when she is ready. Is that not a mixed signal when randomly one night she is told "no"? The upset would have come at any time of the day I believe - more when she's tired, sure. But I think most of the upset was because she felt we weren't listening to her.
> -=-She wasn't screaming until the TV was turned off without any input
> from either of us.-=-
>
> But she was screaming. If she's little enough to scream in the middle
> of the night, she's too young to be awake in the middle of the night.
>She has a pretty good concept of being quiet at certain times and places. Of course it is not perfect as there are times when she just doesn't want to!
> -=-Marisol was talking to herself a lot.-=-
>
> This is a very minor element (my question is), but did you suggest it
> was time to be quiet because neighbors were sleeping and her dad was
> studying (or whatever)?
>I don't think that I misunderstood the principles... although clearly my understanding is still evolving. And I don't think that I have been given bad advice either. I DO think that the way I use words is still not precise enough.
> -=-This I find interesting. I will compare it to TV. I remember last
> year asking when I child was "old enough" to decide when/how much TV
> they should watch or something to that extent. I believe that I pretty
> much got the answer that they can decide for themselves... -=-
>
> The "pretty much answer" summary doesn't cover any principles, as
> you've stated it here. It makes a new rule. It goes from the
> parents deciding to the child deciding--from the parents dictating to
> the child dictating.
>
> It's possible you either misunderstood the "let her watch TV" advice,And screaming was not an issue until we changed how we normally do things.
> or weren't offered the principles behind what it is.
>
> -=-Being quiet has not been an issue for us -- being up late has been
> the issue. -=-
>
> Screaming is an issue.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/latenightlearningThis had nothing to do with him going to sleep. It had to do with him being annoyed that she was still awake! We were not keeping him up and we never do. It is ALWAYS my role to stay up with her at this point.
> My kids were and are up late a lot, but not noisily so (not usually...
> <g>).
>
> Helping kids know of expectations at different times and in different
> places is necessary when parents aren't going to just use the set of
> rules and punishments being passed around in society in general.
>
> But would your husband have turned off the TV if you were watching
> it? That's worth talking about in private sometime. He could have at
> least waited for a good stopping place, or offered to sleep elsewhere,
> or asked if you two could've taken the video elsewhere.
Maybe there is some misunderstanding here because the scenario wasn't clearly stated. But what I am wondering is if I really misunderstood a principle?
Robyn L. Coburn
<<< But she was screaming. If she's little enough to scream in the middle
she would consider rude also. She was in the middle of watching something.
If mom came in and switched off dad's tv show like that, with what is
essentially no warning, wouldn't it be reasonable for him to complain? Just
walking in suddenly and switching off the tv in the middle of another
person's show isn't an issue of deciding someone else was tired for them; it
was a little piece of disrespectful rudeness that the offended person was
protesting.
I have posted many times about how in Jayn's case all the turning off of
lights and quietness and calm atmosphere in the world won't put her to sleep
before she is truly ready. It's all very well to say that a child is "too
young" to be awake, but if she is anything like Jayn was ever since she grew
from infancy, there is NO WAY to make her not be awake when she is not
sleepy. And we have been in situations where she has fought the soporific
effects of big drugs (medical situations) and in one case won! That is
different from helping her be quiet and considerate of others while awake
late at night.
The little girl probably shouldn't be "screaming", but that will come with
development and being encouraged to express herself differently. What does
"screaming" mean in this case anyway? Bursting into tears and crying? Does
her crying carry beyond the walls of the room? Maybe it really was a scream
of outrage. Helping her find other ways to express herself is a separate
issue from gentle to sleep.
What we have no way of knowing today is whether Marisol would have fallen
asleep within five minutes anyway. In Jayn's case experience leads me to
believe that yes, she would have. She sleeps when she is ready to sleep,
regardless of what is on the tv.
Deliberately doing something that will upset and outrage a tired child, such
as walk in and switch off her show, is not going to help anyone be calm. I
think they are lucky Marisol fell asleep so quickly. Jayn would probably
have cried in anger for fifteen minutes, and I would have taken her to the
other room for it, and she and I would have been kept up even longer. Dh
doesn't do that kind of disrespectful thing to Jayn. It was a mistake borne
of frustration I'm guessing - but your dh can forgive himself for it and
resolve not to do that again. And you can work together to change the
situation so he doesn't feel called to act that way again to meet his own
needs.
Having been in this kind of situation about tv sharing and tv in the bedroom
my advice is this:
Make sure Marisol understands that the first priority has to be Daddy's
sleep - because he has the schedule, and the morning commitments (assuming
that is so.)
If you are going to have the tv on, find a volume that works for everyone.
I'm lucky because my dh likes the tv on for sleep. It's like white noise to
him. In fact I think that he finds it easier to fall asleep with sound - he
even has a speaker device under his pillow so that he can listen to his
internet radio to go to sleep to. I now use earplugs to sleep, although I
probably would not have done so when Jayn was little even if I had thought
of it at the time. We have had lots of times when Jayn has sat at the end of
the bed to be able to hear the lower volume, and then she crawls back to us
when ready to sleep.
Talk to your dh about how this might go differently next time. If he needs
the bedroom to be quiet for his sleep, perhaps you need a different
arrangement for your late night watching. Jayn and I pretty much own the tv
in the living room, while dh uses the bedroom tv. We dvr in the living room,
he has his shows on the bedroom satellite. It works out very well.
Or if you only have the one tv with vcr, make a plan to warn Marisol in
future. Say that you will be able to watch until Daddy comes in, or work out
a "five more minutes" or "until such and such a scene". Ask your dh to give
you a five minute warning before he is coming in to bed, or make an habit of
winding down the watching while he does some regular thing - like from the
moment he brushes his teeth. Model the negotiations for daddy also so he
hears you saying "Here comes Daddy to go to sleep. We need to turn the show
off in a moment. What is a good place to pause until tomorrow?" If Jayn were
unwilling and getting loud about it, I would take that as a "not ready for
sleep" sign and take her to the living room to give dh the bed. Maybe your
dh would be willing to try earplugs.
Here's how we have gone to sleep over the last few nights. Assume dh is in
the bedroom, drifitng between watching tv, working on his laptop, listening
to his internet radio, reading and sleeping, as he does every evening.
Last night I was very tired and warned Jayn that I needed to go to bed. She
told me she wanted me to stay up, but I repeated that I was very tired. She
told me that she was hungry and I offered her the three or four choices of
what I was prepared to make at 3am. She was thinking over her choices while
I went and put on my pyjamas, in the bathroom. I also turned dh's light off
since he was really fully asleep by now. I fixed Jayn the food she wanted,
gave it to her and went to the bedroom to wait and glanced at a book. Within
about five minutes she came in. I went to the living room and put out the
lights. Jayn changed the tv channels to the one she was watching - low
volume. She was asleep within moments of lying down, despite asserting that
she wasn't tired (that's just static - I let that kind of statement go by as
code for "I wish I wasn't tired"). And then I turned off the tv and had to
insert my earplugs against a cacophany of snoring from two people who both
have a cold!
The night before I was doing some writing on my computer situated behind the
sofa where Jayn sat and watched a couple of dvd movies in the living room,
and having her snack. At one point she got up - I thought she had gone to
the bathroom. The movie ended and I realized that she had not come back - so
I thought she was in the bed. It was about 2.30am. I put out the lights,
turned off the electronics. I went to the bathroom to put on my pyjamas (you
will see by now that this is where I keep them to avoid disturbing dh with
clothes changing noises) then I tiptoed in to the bedroom which unusually
was pitch black with the tv already off. Did I find Jayn in bed? No. Without
my noticing it she had gone to play in the little alcove we made out of a
shelving unit and the hall closet where most of her toys are stored. She can
still see and hear the tv from there. She'd fallen asleep on the floor. So I
walked her to the bedroom, with some difficulty in getting her on to her
feet. I'd have left her there if the floor weren't so hard and cold.
The night before had been similar, only this time she had annonced that she
was going to bed and gone to the bedroom to join James watching something or
other of his. When I came in within about half an hour she was asleep
snuggled up to him and he was asleep with his computer on his chest and all
the lights on, which I took care of.
I'm mentioning all of this to show that in our house going to sleep looks
different every night. Sometimes I go to bed first and dh is the one who
gets up and switches off the lights and electronics in the living room.
Sometimes Jayn falls asleep on the sofa. Sometimes I take a nap there, and
she likes to wake me up and make me scrambled eggs in the middle of the
night. Jayn will get hungry at odd times, and sometimes it is suddenly and I
am in the kitchen just when I would like to be in the bed. The natural limit
here becomes what I am willing to make.
But through it all, dh gets his sleep for work. If he is staying awake, it's
his own decision, and he usually doesn't hear us come in. I think he would
like to spend more time with us in the evening, but that desire is at odds
with his own tendency to nap and snooze regardless of where he is
comfortably settled, and conflicting tastes in tv preferences.
The only time that there has been conflict over sleep is if I or dh were
trying to force Jayn to go to sleep before she was ready or when she was
still hungry.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
> of the night, she's too young to be awake in the middle of the night.>>>>Jayn would have been equally upset at the tv being turned off in way that
she would consider rude also. She was in the middle of watching something.
If mom came in and switched off dad's tv show like that, with what is
essentially no warning, wouldn't it be reasonable for him to complain? Just
walking in suddenly and switching off the tv in the middle of another
person's show isn't an issue of deciding someone else was tired for them; it
was a little piece of disrespectful rudeness that the offended person was
protesting.
I have posted many times about how in Jayn's case all the turning off of
lights and quietness and calm atmosphere in the world won't put her to sleep
before she is truly ready. It's all very well to say that a child is "too
young" to be awake, but if she is anything like Jayn was ever since she grew
from infancy, there is NO WAY to make her not be awake when she is not
sleepy. And we have been in situations where she has fought the soporific
effects of big drugs (medical situations) and in one case won! That is
different from helping her be quiet and considerate of others while awake
late at night.
The little girl probably shouldn't be "screaming", but that will come with
development and being encouraged to express herself differently. What does
"screaming" mean in this case anyway? Bursting into tears and crying? Does
her crying carry beyond the walls of the room? Maybe it really was a scream
of outrage. Helping her find other ways to express herself is a separate
issue from gentle to sleep.
What we have no way of knowing today is whether Marisol would have fallen
asleep within five minutes anyway. In Jayn's case experience leads me to
believe that yes, she would have. She sleeps when she is ready to sleep,
regardless of what is on the tv.
Deliberately doing something that will upset and outrage a tired child, such
as walk in and switch off her show, is not going to help anyone be calm. I
think they are lucky Marisol fell asleep so quickly. Jayn would probably
have cried in anger for fifteen minutes, and I would have taken her to the
other room for it, and she and I would have been kept up even longer. Dh
doesn't do that kind of disrespectful thing to Jayn. It was a mistake borne
of frustration I'm guessing - but your dh can forgive himself for it and
resolve not to do that again. And you can work together to change the
situation so he doesn't feel called to act that way again to meet his own
needs.
Having been in this kind of situation about tv sharing and tv in the bedroom
my advice is this:
Make sure Marisol understands that the first priority has to be Daddy's
sleep - because he has the schedule, and the morning commitments (assuming
that is so.)
If you are going to have the tv on, find a volume that works for everyone.
I'm lucky because my dh likes the tv on for sleep. It's like white noise to
him. In fact I think that he finds it easier to fall asleep with sound - he
even has a speaker device under his pillow so that he can listen to his
internet radio to go to sleep to. I now use earplugs to sleep, although I
probably would not have done so when Jayn was little even if I had thought
of it at the time. We have had lots of times when Jayn has sat at the end of
the bed to be able to hear the lower volume, and then she crawls back to us
when ready to sleep.
Talk to your dh about how this might go differently next time. If he needs
the bedroom to be quiet for his sleep, perhaps you need a different
arrangement for your late night watching. Jayn and I pretty much own the tv
in the living room, while dh uses the bedroom tv. We dvr in the living room,
he has his shows on the bedroom satellite. It works out very well.
Or if you only have the one tv with vcr, make a plan to warn Marisol in
future. Say that you will be able to watch until Daddy comes in, or work out
a "five more minutes" or "until such and such a scene". Ask your dh to give
you a five minute warning before he is coming in to bed, or make an habit of
winding down the watching while he does some regular thing - like from the
moment he brushes his teeth. Model the negotiations for daddy also so he
hears you saying "Here comes Daddy to go to sleep. We need to turn the show
off in a moment. What is a good place to pause until tomorrow?" If Jayn were
unwilling and getting loud about it, I would take that as a "not ready for
sleep" sign and take her to the living room to give dh the bed. Maybe your
dh would be willing to try earplugs.
Here's how we have gone to sleep over the last few nights. Assume dh is in
the bedroom, drifitng between watching tv, working on his laptop, listening
to his internet radio, reading and sleeping, as he does every evening.
Last night I was very tired and warned Jayn that I needed to go to bed. She
told me she wanted me to stay up, but I repeated that I was very tired. She
told me that she was hungry and I offered her the three or four choices of
what I was prepared to make at 3am. She was thinking over her choices while
I went and put on my pyjamas, in the bathroom. I also turned dh's light off
since he was really fully asleep by now. I fixed Jayn the food she wanted,
gave it to her and went to the bedroom to wait and glanced at a book. Within
about five minutes she came in. I went to the living room and put out the
lights. Jayn changed the tv channels to the one she was watching - low
volume. She was asleep within moments of lying down, despite asserting that
she wasn't tired (that's just static - I let that kind of statement go by as
code for "I wish I wasn't tired"). And then I turned off the tv and had to
insert my earplugs against a cacophany of snoring from two people who both
have a cold!
The night before I was doing some writing on my computer situated behind the
sofa where Jayn sat and watched a couple of dvd movies in the living room,
and having her snack. At one point she got up - I thought she had gone to
the bathroom. The movie ended and I realized that she had not come back - so
I thought she was in the bed. It was about 2.30am. I put out the lights,
turned off the electronics. I went to the bathroom to put on my pyjamas (you
will see by now that this is where I keep them to avoid disturbing dh with
clothes changing noises) then I tiptoed in to the bedroom which unusually
was pitch black with the tv already off. Did I find Jayn in bed? No. Without
my noticing it she had gone to play in the little alcove we made out of a
shelving unit and the hall closet where most of her toys are stored. She can
still see and hear the tv from there. She'd fallen asleep on the floor. So I
walked her to the bedroom, with some difficulty in getting her on to her
feet. I'd have left her there if the floor weren't so hard and cold.
The night before had been similar, only this time she had annonced that she
was going to bed and gone to the bedroom to join James watching something or
other of his. When I came in within about half an hour she was asleep
snuggled up to him and he was asleep with his computer on his chest and all
the lights on, which I took care of.
I'm mentioning all of this to show that in our house going to sleep looks
different every night. Sometimes I go to bed first and dh is the one who
gets up and switches off the lights and electronics in the living room.
Sometimes Jayn falls asleep on the sofa. Sometimes I take a nap there, and
she likes to wake me up and make me scrambled eggs in the middle of the
night. Jayn will get hungry at odd times, and sometimes it is suddenly and I
am in the kitchen just when I would like to be in the bed. The natural limit
here becomes what I am willing to make.
But through it all, dh gets his sleep for work. If he is staying awake, it's
his own decision, and he usually doesn't hear us come in. I think he would
like to spend more time with us in the evening, but that desire is at odds
with his own tendency to nap and snooze regardless of where he is
comfortably settled, and conflicting tastes in tv preferences.
The only time that there has been conflict over sleep is if I or dh were
trying to force Jayn to go to sleep before she was ready or when she was
still hungry.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
[email protected]
>>>> Deliberately doing something that will upset and outrage a tiredchild, such
as walk in and switch off her show, is not going to help anyone be
calm. I
think they are lucky Marisol fell asleep so quickly. <<<<
Some kids acquiesce more easily than others. So yes. I agree it's
luck when that happens. It's their personality or they're younger and
more trusting (read *not yet jaded*) of parents' ideas about when they
should sleep. Karl can be outmaneuvered into sleeping before he wants
to. It's happened here a number of times. So I know it can be done.
However, now that Karl is getting older, all this is getting harder and
harder to *make* happen.
By the time Karl got old enough to start balking and wanted to control
when sleep happens, I'm finding that trying to control Karl is just
resulting in him not wanting to hear what *we* want at other times.
That kind of thing has a ripple effect. Once the trust in your child
takes a hit somewhere, it's easy to blame the kid and from there things
spiral down more and more quickly.
Helping Karl to relax and finding ways to welcome sleep has never been
turned down unless it's put with our *need* for him get to sleep *now
or very soon please.* Then anything we do can backfire and appear
manipulative to him.
Outright taking the choice about when the TV goes off can mess things
up. By then it's too late.
How bout taking on the challenge of remembering to zone down things
soon enough and fill up the child's tank for food, closeness, games,
activity and so on ... during the day. What I've found for myself is
that's really hard for me to do. I dreaded sleep when I was a kid and
felt that when I grew up I would jolly well stay up as long as I want
to, thanks very much. My time! Me. Which is a thing that's my
struggle, something in *my* head that is getting transferred to Karl
unintentionally. So yeh, taking up the challenge has not been easy for
me.
Reading Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's Sleepless in America helped me to figure
out some of these things. Actually I think I could read it some more.
I never actually finished the thing anyway.
~Katherine
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
My dd Gigi is 3 years old so I understand a lot when they do not want to go to sleep.
What I have been doing with her for about a years is that when I can tell she is tired or I am tired we both go
upstairs , get ready to sleep( teeth, pee, her princess pjs) and then we lay in a bed with two TV's on.
On her TV she watches her movies and on mine I watch my shows that I DVR'ed.
I have a headphone for me. I turn the lights off ( enough light with the TVs on)
We play, nurse,watch movies.
Here my dh Brian works EVERYDAY at around 4:30 AM until 8-9:00PM and he needs his sleep.
So we try to respect him and talk about it all the time how daddy has to sleep and is tired.
Turning of Gigi's movie off would have made her really upset.
What I would have done was to take the movie and the baby to another room and cuddle up watching the movie until she fell asleep
letting daddy sleep.
I have been really good about finding ways to help my kids sleep when they are tired without getting into a battle.
I remember that for a while with my son had to have the vacuum on to sleep. He was around one at the time.
That changed into different things throughout the years and now at 6 ( 7 in the end of June) he goes to bed when tired.
He is really good at just going upstairs and brushing his teeth and going to sleep.
I do let him know when I go because he likes to go with me and play some Nintendo DS in bed while I play mine and then we sleep holding hands.
Alex Polikowsky
,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Oh and I think I did not make it clear that we go to a different room than my DH Brian is sleeping so we do not
keep him from his must needed sleep.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keep him from his must needed sleep.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>>> Oh and I think I did not make it clear that we go to a differentroom than my DH Brian is sleeping so we do not
keep him from his must needed sleep. <<<<
I don't think the issue was so much keeping someone awake as the
thinking on when a child "should" be sleeping.
~Katherine
m_aduhene
hi,
when my dd(8) was a baby, we played, nursed, ate, slept when she wanted. we still do now (except nursing), but i came to realise that as far as sleep is concerned it has evolved as our family has grown. we now have 2 more children in the family and their needs have also to be considered. my older dd can keep going on very little sleep and can really fight the need to sleep, even when she is saying she is tired. i respect this in her as she has been able to choose sleep from babyhood. i brought my ds up the same way but when he needs to sleep he sleeps. my youngest dd has yet to show me her "pattern" as she has only just stopped nursing to sleep (nearly 3). i think she may be like dd1 as she can keep going despite yawning her head off, flopping on the sofa and declaring she is tired.
after the birth of my dd3 i suffered a pni which required hospitalisation for 6 weeks (i had the baby with me in hospital). my family's life and their sleep arrangements changed for this time and my recovery afterwards. daddy now lay with them to go to sleep. no more nursing to sleep for my ds (age 2). he "transisitioned" and fell asleep un-nursed. dd was often still awake as daddy lay snoring...he falls alseep as soon as his head hits the pillow.... and she had to wake him. then they went downstairs or sometimes he would say she had to stay upstairs and sleep.
when i came out of hospital i was tired. the children had been used to staying up late but i could not get past 8.30pm despite not having to get up in the mornings. dd would not stay downstairs with daddy, so she lay with me while younger son went to sleep (he was not always tired and wanting to go to bed but i had to know psychologically that it was the end of my day). he would fall asleep within the hour. sometimes i would fall asleep too and i assume dd1 would fall asleep around the same time. dh works from home and long hours so could not help out much.
it was a strange time for us. i am now fully recovered and our life has normalised. i do now though have to sometimes suggest bedtime and take them up as i see ds flagging and knowing he won't go to sleep if his sister's are still up and playing. we all have to lay in bed until he nods off. then we come down again or sometimes we sleep.
my point in all this is maybe to say that situations can change and children can adapt and sometimes as long as is it is done with love then the children will be ok. thinking about my little man not having his "dee" to go to sleep is sad for me but he has not been harmed by it.
my little miss (3) is rubbing her eyes now and yawning, her brother and sister are playing swimming pools(it's 22.41).
blessings
michelle
when my dd(8) was a baby, we played, nursed, ate, slept when she wanted. we still do now (except nursing), but i came to realise that as far as sleep is concerned it has evolved as our family has grown. we now have 2 more children in the family and their needs have also to be considered. my older dd can keep going on very little sleep and can really fight the need to sleep, even when she is saying she is tired. i respect this in her as she has been able to choose sleep from babyhood. i brought my ds up the same way but when he needs to sleep he sleeps. my youngest dd has yet to show me her "pattern" as she has only just stopped nursing to sleep (nearly 3). i think she may be like dd1 as she can keep going despite yawning her head off, flopping on the sofa and declaring she is tired.
after the birth of my dd3 i suffered a pni which required hospitalisation for 6 weeks (i had the baby with me in hospital). my family's life and their sleep arrangements changed for this time and my recovery afterwards. daddy now lay with them to go to sleep. no more nursing to sleep for my ds (age 2). he "transisitioned" and fell asleep un-nursed. dd was often still awake as daddy lay snoring...he falls alseep as soon as his head hits the pillow.... and she had to wake him. then they went downstairs or sometimes he would say she had to stay upstairs and sleep.
when i came out of hospital i was tired. the children had been used to staying up late but i could not get past 8.30pm despite not having to get up in the mornings. dd would not stay downstairs with daddy, so she lay with me while younger son went to sleep (he was not always tired and wanting to go to bed but i had to know psychologically that it was the end of my day). he would fall asleep within the hour. sometimes i would fall asleep too and i assume dd1 would fall asleep around the same time. dh works from home and long hours so could not help out much.
it was a strange time for us. i am now fully recovered and our life has normalised. i do now though have to sometimes suggest bedtime and take them up as i see ds flagging and knowing he won't go to sleep if his sister's are still up and playing. we all have to lay in bed until he nods off. then we come down again or sometimes we sleep.
my point in all this is maybe to say that situations can change and children can adapt and sometimes as long as is it is done with love then the children will be ok. thinking about my little man not having his "dee" to go to sleep is sad for me but he has not been harmed by it.
my little miss (3) is rubbing her eyes now and yawning, her brother and sister are playing swimming pools(it's 22.41).
blessings
michelle
Sandra Dodd
-=I don't think the issue was so much keeping someone awake as the
thinking on when a child "should" be sleeping.-=
There's almost always more than one issue. <g>
A rule that kids go to bed at 9:00 is no worse than a rule that kids
can stay up as long as they want and do what they want regardless of
other people's needs and wishes.
My kids always had "ifs"--yes, you can stay up if you can be quiet.
Yes, you can stay up if you stay in the house and keep your visitors
quiet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thinking on when a child "should" be sleeping.-=
There's almost always more than one issue. <g>
A rule that kids go to bed at 9:00 is no worse than a rule that kids
can stay up as long as they want and do what they want regardless of
other people's needs and wishes.
My kids always had "ifs"--yes, you can stay up if you can be quiet.
Yes, you can stay up if you stay in the house and keep your visitors
quiet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]