I'll tell this here, but not on my blog
Sandra Dodd
This is long, but everyone's fine. Those with young children or who
don't like long posts can skip it.
My introduction is that each of our children has been in trouble with
the law now.
Kirby drove his friend Joey home about four blocks, and he forgot to
turn his headlights on. We went to court and they let him pay the
fine without talking to the judge.
Marty was on a playground in a public park after hours (parks close at
10:00 or 10:30)--not drinking, not doing anything but playing on the
slides with three other people, one 21 and the others 18, 19. He did
two days of community service at the Red Cross office. (He reminded
me that he also was ticketed for stopping too hard at a stop light.
He stopped, but not gracefully, and we went to court and he paid a
fine and went to a driving class. No alcohol nor any other such thing
involved.)
Holly's is slightly worse than these.
Last night at 2:20 Holly (17) called on the house phone. There's one
by our bed. She sounded like she was afraid and embarrassed, and said
that the party had been busted, and she needed us to come and pick her
up. The police said she needed at least one parent to come. And she
was afraid she might have parked the car where it would have been
towed. She couldn't see it from where she was.
So I woke Keith up and told him. Keith had fallen asleep really early
because he had been helping clean a group camping site in Edgewood for
several hours Saturday morning and afternoon. Brett had been
planning to go to the party when I had gone to bed, but Brett had had
a too-long day at work and had come home to discuss that and to play
World of Warcraft. (Brett is Holly's boyfriend, who's staying with
us, for those new to the saga.)
Brett's car was in the driveway and the house was dark, so we went out
quietly. I thought maybe he could be spared the worry, and it's
possible that Holly wouldn't have wanted him there, but just us.
I went back to get a big flannel sheet, because besides "bust" Holly
had also mentioned "wrestling in pudding."
I knew where she was, because it was a house she'd never been to
before, hosting a party for a couple she's known separately a long
time, and together. One was having a birthday; the other had
sufficiently recovered from a broken neck in a car accident (he's
mobile), to share a party. She had been scheduled to go to his
birthday party a couple of months ago when he had the accident.
Brett and I had helped (by phone) figure out exactly where the house
was and how she could best get there from where she was after work.
For those who know Albuquerque, we're near the mountains (Juan Tabo
and Candelaria) and she was down past the university, across from
Roosevelt Park. It's eight miles or ten, maybe.
As we were driving, we discussed what the best tack to take would be.
We shouldn't be too cheery about it. We weren't going to act harsher
than we felt. I was thinking at that time it might be a marijuana
situation.
A mile from the house Marty called. He had been invited to the party,
but had opted to go to a couple of parties his girlfriend had been
invited to instead. They were done there, and he had called to see
if the birthday/recovery party was still on, and the birthday-person
answered her cell from her car, where she was driving drunks home.
She told Marty what she knew. So I was relieved it was alcohol and
pudding, rather than drugs.
Holly had been the second youngest person at the party. The sixteen
year old girl was asked "were you drinking?" and she said "no," so
they said "Go home." Everyone over 21 who could prove it was told
to go home. (Holly's unsure if any of them got citations). Holly had
said yes, about drinking, so they told her to call her parents. And
Holly didn't know the other girl, nor several of the people at the
party.
The birthday hostess (not resident) had wanted to stay with Holly but
the police told her she needed to leave and help get the intoxicated
friends safely home.
Marty (20, her brother) had been willing to go and get Holly, but I
told him it needed to be a parent and we were already on the way. So
he said he and Ashlee-his-girlfriend would go on to our house. I told
him Brett didn't know yet, so maybe not to bother him with it but let
Holly tell him, unless he asked directly. I thought he was asleep.
Just a minute or so later, Brett (25, her boyfriend) called. It was
2:40 or so by then, and he had been just about to go to sleep but
called Holly to see if she was okay and when she was coming back.
The police let her answer the phone. She told him we were on our way
to get her, so I told him what I knew and that Marty was on his way
home.
At that point I thought how cool it was that we were all in such close
communication. The day I was in an accident a couple or three weeks
ago, before I had left the scene, Keith and Holly and Brett were there
with me. Marty was at work, or he probably would've been there too.
We got to the house and she was sitting on the porch, chocolate
pudding in her hair and everywhere, drying. There were four
policemen, and another one in the house. Holly was the last one
there besides the two who lived there. She was wearing a t-shirt and
shorts, and was barefooted. I wrapped the flannel sheet around her.
Keith did the talking, and not much. Everyone was courteous and
somber but not tense. Keith apologized and thanked them, and the one
who was in charge of Holly before we got there said they were just
doing their jobs, and Keith said "Well, I need to do mine too," and
the guy said he was a parent too, and these things happen. So there
was no shaming or defensiveness or anything. She was cited, and I
can't read the details on our copy, but I think it's possession of
alcohol by a minor. Maybe it's consumption. It has a number I can't
see well enough to look it up.
Holly asked if she could go inside and go to the bathroom. The
officer said "You're in the custody of your parents now--it's up to
them." We all looked at each other. It wasn't my house; I didn't
know the residents. Keith said "Go pee."
While she was gone we talked a little. There was a big dark smear on
the bottom concrete step there by the front door. I said "I assume
that's pudding, and not blood." One of the cops said, "Yeah. There's
pudding everywhere in there. There's pudding on me." Another one
said "There's pudding on my flashlight." It would've been funny,
but we were all in straight-face, this isn't funny mode.
We'll be contacted by the juvenile probation department. The
policeman used the term "intake," and I asked what that meant. He
said they'll want to determine whether she needs alcohol abuse
treatment, and whether she's in a safe situation. Okay. I don't
think homeschooling will be an issue, and she's old enough to drop out
or graduate anyway, if she were in high school. She has two part-
time jobs, and that will help (if they don't pull a child labor law
trick out of the hat <g>). She hasn't been in trouble, and that will
help. No damage to people or property.
And the drinking she did was one jello shooter, and tastes of two
other people's drinks. She said she never had a drink of her own.
There weren't any drinking games. There were people there not
drinking at all.
She could have lied, but she didn't.
When she came out of the house she was crying--frustration and
embarrassment kind of crying. Stress.
Things seemed to be a smooth as possible under the circumstances.
When we were leaving, the police could leave, and the two guys who
lived there walked them out too, and said good night and thanks and
good bye, and Holly rode back with Keith in the van where the heater
had been on, and I followed them back in the car. When we got home
she was crying, but I do know she told Keith some of the story on the
way home and also talked to the birthday hostess to tell her she was
okay.
We got home and she went into the shower. I took the pudding clothes
and put them in the washing machine so I could turn it on right after
she turned the shower off. The laundry was her bikini top, the
Punisher t-shirt her friend Jared had taken off and put on her so
she'd be wearing more than just a bikini top and shorts, another t-
shirt someone had offered up for people to wipe jello off of them, and
she said she would bring back clean. Her shorts and underwear, and
the sheet.
She was unsettled and lightly agitated. I offered to sleep with her
in the library and she gratefully took me up on that. I closed down
the house, re-ran the laundry, left notes so Keith and Brett would
know where we were if they woke up, and went and fixed up that bed.
So I curled up behind her and stroked her hair and her arm and told
her I loved her and I was sorry she had cried, and she asked what I
was thinking about it all, and how much trouble she might be in. I
told her there might be a fine, and she'd probably have unsupervised
probation, since nobody was hurt and there wasn't any malice.
I don't know who all might've been charged besides Holly and the
resident hosts. I'm willing to provide follow-ups on this. If I'm
going to be telling how wonderful our lives are, it's only fair to
give some detail on the less than wonderful times.
Ashlee (now 23) told me last night that when she was 15 she spent the
night with a friend, and they got a ride to a party on the other end
of town. She grew up 20 miles north of here in Bernalillo, a little
farm town two miles long. The girls were walking home from the
party, really late, and the police came and took each of them to her
own home. Ashlee's parents grounded her from watching MTV for a year,
she said, because they were sure watching MTV had made her wild.
We're not grounding Holly from anything. We didn't congratulate her
or make light of it, but she was fully remorseful and is more
concerned about how we feel about it, and the inconvenience to us in
the middle of the night, than about her own outcome. She'll be 18 in
November, and juvenile offenses like this are wiped off, in New
Mexico. Or maybe it will be wiped when she's 21, or after the
probationary period; I don't know.
The police seemed to have felt better after they asked Holly whether
any of the girls were pudding-wrestling for money. Holly didn't
really understand the question, and I didn't even hear about it until
later, but it makes more sense now, thinking back to when the youngest
officer said "It was a party activity," and I said "Well I guess it's
good it wasn't just her and one other girl," and he said "No, they
were all doing it."
Keith says guys pay money to watch girls wrestle, so they were
wondering whether it was a sex show or prostitution. Oh, see? I
didn't even think about that.
One more story for now... She said she was the last one up the stairs
(the pudding pool was in the basement) and they had told all the girls
to sit on the couch. Most had showered, but the line for the shower
had been long, so Holly was still in the wading pool of pudding.
When she got up there, the resident host was in handcuffs, but once
they'd figured out the small extent of the problem, they took them
off. But she said she asked if she could sit on the floor instead
because she had pudding on her. They said sure.
When she told me that last night, I told her that was really nice of
her, and she said she wouldn't sit on anyone's couch with pudding on
her, even if the police told her to.
This is the end of my sordid tale of Holly's detainment by the
police. She was honest, she was considerate of her host's furniture,
she had had a jello shot (not at all strong, either, she said) and a
couple of drinks of others' mixed drinks. She was pudding-wrestling,
just for fun and not for money.
Because we still need to deal with the juvenile probation people and
she probably has to go to court, I don't want to put on my blog that
she's not being punished or grounded.
When Holly knew I was going to write this she said that was good,
because some unschoolers seem to think they're immune from the
possibility of getting into trouble.
I hope this doesn't keep anyone from wanting to continue with
unschooling.
Sandra
don't like long posts can skip it.
My introduction is that each of our children has been in trouble with
the law now.
Kirby drove his friend Joey home about four blocks, and he forgot to
turn his headlights on. We went to court and they let him pay the
fine without talking to the judge.
Marty was on a playground in a public park after hours (parks close at
10:00 or 10:30)--not drinking, not doing anything but playing on the
slides with three other people, one 21 and the others 18, 19. He did
two days of community service at the Red Cross office. (He reminded
me that he also was ticketed for stopping too hard at a stop light.
He stopped, but not gracefully, and we went to court and he paid a
fine and went to a driving class. No alcohol nor any other such thing
involved.)
Holly's is slightly worse than these.
Last night at 2:20 Holly (17) called on the house phone. There's one
by our bed. She sounded like she was afraid and embarrassed, and said
that the party had been busted, and she needed us to come and pick her
up. The police said she needed at least one parent to come. And she
was afraid she might have parked the car where it would have been
towed. She couldn't see it from where she was.
So I woke Keith up and told him. Keith had fallen asleep really early
because he had been helping clean a group camping site in Edgewood for
several hours Saturday morning and afternoon. Brett had been
planning to go to the party when I had gone to bed, but Brett had had
a too-long day at work and had come home to discuss that and to play
World of Warcraft. (Brett is Holly's boyfriend, who's staying with
us, for those new to the saga.)
Brett's car was in the driveway and the house was dark, so we went out
quietly. I thought maybe he could be spared the worry, and it's
possible that Holly wouldn't have wanted him there, but just us.
I went back to get a big flannel sheet, because besides "bust" Holly
had also mentioned "wrestling in pudding."
I knew where she was, because it was a house she'd never been to
before, hosting a party for a couple she's known separately a long
time, and together. One was having a birthday; the other had
sufficiently recovered from a broken neck in a car accident (he's
mobile), to share a party. She had been scheduled to go to his
birthday party a couple of months ago when he had the accident.
Brett and I had helped (by phone) figure out exactly where the house
was and how she could best get there from where she was after work.
For those who know Albuquerque, we're near the mountains (Juan Tabo
and Candelaria) and she was down past the university, across from
Roosevelt Park. It's eight miles or ten, maybe.
As we were driving, we discussed what the best tack to take would be.
We shouldn't be too cheery about it. We weren't going to act harsher
than we felt. I was thinking at that time it might be a marijuana
situation.
A mile from the house Marty called. He had been invited to the party,
but had opted to go to a couple of parties his girlfriend had been
invited to instead. They were done there, and he had called to see
if the birthday/recovery party was still on, and the birthday-person
answered her cell from her car, where she was driving drunks home.
She told Marty what she knew. So I was relieved it was alcohol and
pudding, rather than drugs.
Holly had been the second youngest person at the party. The sixteen
year old girl was asked "were you drinking?" and she said "no," so
they said "Go home." Everyone over 21 who could prove it was told
to go home. (Holly's unsure if any of them got citations). Holly had
said yes, about drinking, so they told her to call her parents. And
Holly didn't know the other girl, nor several of the people at the
party.
The birthday hostess (not resident) had wanted to stay with Holly but
the police told her she needed to leave and help get the intoxicated
friends safely home.
Marty (20, her brother) had been willing to go and get Holly, but I
told him it needed to be a parent and we were already on the way. So
he said he and Ashlee-his-girlfriend would go on to our house. I told
him Brett didn't know yet, so maybe not to bother him with it but let
Holly tell him, unless he asked directly. I thought he was asleep.
Just a minute or so later, Brett (25, her boyfriend) called. It was
2:40 or so by then, and he had been just about to go to sleep but
called Holly to see if she was okay and when she was coming back.
The police let her answer the phone. She told him we were on our way
to get her, so I told him what I knew and that Marty was on his way
home.
At that point I thought how cool it was that we were all in such close
communication. The day I was in an accident a couple or three weeks
ago, before I had left the scene, Keith and Holly and Brett were there
with me. Marty was at work, or he probably would've been there too.
We got to the house and she was sitting on the porch, chocolate
pudding in her hair and everywhere, drying. There were four
policemen, and another one in the house. Holly was the last one
there besides the two who lived there. She was wearing a t-shirt and
shorts, and was barefooted. I wrapped the flannel sheet around her.
Keith did the talking, and not much. Everyone was courteous and
somber but not tense. Keith apologized and thanked them, and the one
who was in charge of Holly before we got there said they were just
doing their jobs, and Keith said "Well, I need to do mine too," and
the guy said he was a parent too, and these things happen. So there
was no shaming or defensiveness or anything. She was cited, and I
can't read the details on our copy, but I think it's possession of
alcohol by a minor. Maybe it's consumption. It has a number I can't
see well enough to look it up.
Holly asked if she could go inside and go to the bathroom. The
officer said "You're in the custody of your parents now--it's up to
them." We all looked at each other. It wasn't my house; I didn't
know the residents. Keith said "Go pee."
While she was gone we talked a little. There was a big dark smear on
the bottom concrete step there by the front door. I said "I assume
that's pudding, and not blood." One of the cops said, "Yeah. There's
pudding everywhere in there. There's pudding on me." Another one
said "There's pudding on my flashlight." It would've been funny,
but we were all in straight-face, this isn't funny mode.
We'll be contacted by the juvenile probation department. The
policeman used the term "intake," and I asked what that meant. He
said they'll want to determine whether she needs alcohol abuse
treatment, and whether she's in a safe situation. Okay. I don't
think homeschooling will be an issue, and she's old enough to drop out
or graduate anyway, if she were in high school. She has two part-
time jobs, and that will help (if they don't pull a child labor law
trick out of the hat <g>). She hasn't been in trouble, and that will
help. No damage to people or property.
And the drinking she did was one jello shooter, and tastes of two
other people's drinks. She said she never had a drink of her own.
There weren't any drinking games. There were people there not
drinking at all.
She could have lied, but she didn't.
When she came out of the house she was crying--frustration and
embarrassment kind of crying. Stress.
Things seemed to be a smooth as possible under the circumstances.
When we were leaving, the police could leave, and the two guys who
lived there walked them out too, and said good night and thanks and
good bye, and Holly rode back with Keith in the van where the heater
had been on, and I followed them back in the car. When we got home
she was crying, but I do know she told Keith some of the story on the
way home and also talked to the birthday hostess to tell her she was
okay.
We got home and she went into the shower. I took the pudding clothes
and put them in the washing machine so I could turn it on right after
she turned the shower off. The laundry was her bikini top, the
Punisher t-shirt her friend Jared had taken off and put on her so
she'd be wearing more than just a bikini top and shorts, another t-
shirt someone had offered up for people to wipe jello off of them, and
she said she would bring back clean. Her shorts and underwear, and
the sheet.
She was unsettled and lightly agitated. I offered to sleep with her
in the library and she gratefully took me up on that. I closed down
the house, re-ran the laundry, left notes so Keith and Brett would
know where we were if they woke up, and went and fixed up that bed.
So I curled up behind her and stroked her hair and her arm and told
her I loved her and I was sorry she had cried, and she asked what I
was thinking about it all, and how much trouble she might be in. I
told her there might be a fine, and she'd probably have unsupervised
probation, since nobody was hurt and there wasn't any malice.
I don't know who all might've been charged besides Holly and the
resident hosts. I'm willing to provide follow-ups on this. If I'm
going to be telling how wonderful our lives are, it's only fair to
give some detail on the less than wonderful times.
Ashlee (now 23) told me last night that when she was 15 she spent the
night with a friend, and they got a ride to a party on the other end
of town. She grew up 20 miles north of here in Bernalillo, a little
farm town two miles long. The girls were walking home from the
party, really late, and the police came and took each of them to her
own home. Ashlee's parents grounded her from watching MTV for a year,
she said, because they were sure watching MTV had made her wild.
We're not grounding Holly from anything. We didn't congratulate her
or make light of it, but she was fully remorseful and is more
concerned about how we feel about it, and the inconvenience to us in
the middle of the night, than about her own outcome. She'll be 18 in
November, and juvenile offenses like this are wiped off, in New
Mexico. Or maybe it will be wiped when she's 21, or after the
probationary period; I don't know.
The police seemed to have felt better after they asked Holly whether
any of the girls were pudding-wrestling for money. Holly didn't
really understand the question, and I didn't even hear about it until
later, but it makes more sense now, thinking back to when the youngest
officer said "It was a party activity," and I said "Well I guess it's
good it wasn't just her and one other girl," and he said "No, they
were all doing it."
Keith says guys pay money to watch girls wrestle, so they were
wondering whether it was a sex show or prostitution. Oh, see? I
didn't even think about that.
One more story for now... She said she was the last one up the stairs
(the pudding pool was in the basement) and they had told all the girls
to sit on the couch. Most had showered, but the line for the shower
had been long, so Holly was still in the wading pool of pudding.
When she got up there, the resident host was in handcuffs, but once
they'd figured out the small extent of the problem, they took them
off. But she said she asked if she could sit on the floor instead
because she had pudding on her. They said sure.
When she told me that last night, I told her that was really nice of
her, and she said she wouldn't sit on anyone's couch with pudding on
her, even if the police told her to.
This is the end of my sordid tale of Holly's detainment by the
police. She was honest, she was considerate of her host's furniture,
she had had a jello shot (not at all strong, either, she said) and a
couple of drinks of others' mixed drinks. She was pudding-wrestling,
just for fun and not for money.
Because we still need to deal with the juvenile probation people and
she probably has to go to court, I don't want to put on my blog that
she's not being punished or grounded.
When Holly knew I was going to write this she said that was good,
because some unschoolers seem to think they're immune from the
possibility of getting into trouble.
I hope this doesn't keep anyone from wanting to continue with
unschooling.
Sandra
Maisha Khalfani
I just posted on another list that it was/is important for those of us who
have been unschooling for a while, or are still new to it, to hear stories
from others about the challenges they have/are facing. This is a wonderful
example of that. It helps me, anyway, to know that unschooling is a
lifestyle, a way of seeing others, but not a protection from all that
happens in life.
I think Holly is a wonderful example to young girls (you can tell her I
said so). The stories you have told about her over the years about her
kindness and honesty have always stuck with me. I wish I had raised Rohana
(19) the way you raised Holly, Marty, and Kirby. Maybe then she would be
more honest and not as fearful.
Holly called you guys and wasnt afraid of your reaction. She knew that you
would be there for HER, not for the police. Holly trusted you. That is the
point of all of this, I think.
Namasté
Maisha Khalfani
<http://sevenfreespirits.blogspot.com/> 7 Free Spirits
<http://earthspiritreadings.blogspot.com/> Tarot & Intuitive Readings
You cannot worry about someone and love them at the same time. Most people
mistake the emotion of worry for the emotion of love. They think that
worrying about somebody means that you love them.
~Abraham
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We
are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.
~Barack Obama
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have been unschooling for a while, or are still new to it, to hear stories
from others about the challenges they have/are facing. This is a wonderful
example of that. It helps me, anyway, to know that unschooling is a
lifestyle, a way of seeing others, but not a protection from all that
happens in life.
I think Holly is a wonderful example to young girls (you can tell her I
said so). The stories you have told about her over the years about her
kindness and honesty have always stuck with me. I wish I had raised Rohana
(19) the way you raised Holly, Marty, and Kirby. Maybe then she would be
more honest and not as fearful.
Holly called you guys and wasnt afraid of your reaction. She knew that you
would be there for HER, not for the police. Holly trusted you. That is the
point of all of this, I think.
Namasté
Maisha Khalfani
<http://sevenfreespirits.blogspot.com/> 7 Free Spirits
<http://earthspiritreadings.blogspot.com/> Tarot & Intuitive Readings
You cannot worry about someone and love them at the same time. Most people
mistake the emotion of worry for the emotion of love. They think that
worrying about somebody means that you love them.
~Abraham
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We
are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.
~Barack Obama
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
Thank you for sharing that story Sandra.
There is a difference between Holly being at a party and most teenagers
being at a party.
Holly was not acting out of a need to rebel, or from feelings of inadequacy
due to neglect, or from built-up contempt. She was having fun.
Pudding-wrestling...how fun does that sound?? I may suggest it at my kids'
next party...
I have three teenagers and one 20 year old (15, 17, 19, 20). I haven't told
the stories on here that weren't so pretty. I really admire your honesty.
My kids have been to parties with alcohol and pot. Three have tried pot.
They've had parties at our house where alcohol showed up. Some of their
friends smoke cigarettes. One of mine smokes cigarettes on occasion. And we
have two hookahs here. They are used about twice a month in a quiet social
setting. Sometimes they aren't used for months at a time (and I don't worry
about sheesha...they get the compressed fruit kind that is tobacco-free, and
it doesn't create smoke in the house).
But none of my kids are "into" pot, alcohol, cigarettes or drugs. Those are
minor items in the array of many more interesting things in life. They talk
openly about drugs and alcohol. They prefer to be home much of their spare
time.They seem to be gliding through these "troublesome" years. They are
authentically kind, listen well to people, open doors for others at the
grocery store, are openly thankful for things...they are good, good people.
But they have a variety of friends and go to a variety of places, so they
are as susceptible as the next kid to being arrested, detained or any other
legal situation. I know this when they are out, and I trust that they will
do their best in situations, but I could just as easily receive a call from
the police, not because I think my kids are regular law-breakers, but
because our society is set up that way.
Is the demon that young adults are engaging in these things in life, or is
the demon that we make it illegal?
Bravo to you and Holly and your family for being so supportive of each
other. It was really a beautiful story. And I'm sure it will produce laughs
later on. Maybe not now, but later. It isn't something to be ashamed of,
that's for sure.
Thanks for sharing,
Jacki
Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] I'll tell this here, but not on my blog
This is long, but everyone's fine. Those with young children or who
don't like long posts can skip it.
My introduction is that each of our children has been in trouble with
the law now.
Kirby drove his friend Joey home about four blocks, and he forgot to
turn his headlights on. We went to court and they let him pay the
fine without talking to the judge.
Marty was on a playground in a public park after hours (parks close at
10:00 or 10:30)--not drinking, not doing anything but playing on the
slides with three other people, one 21 and the others 18, 19. He did
two days of community service at the Red Cross office. (He reminded
me that he also was ticketed for stopping too hard at a stop light.
He stopped, but not gracefully, and we went to court and he paid a
fine and went to a driving class. No alcohol nor any other such thing
involved.)
Holly's is slightly worse than these.
Last night at 2:20 Holly (17) called on the house phone. There's one
by our bed. She sounded like she was afraid and embarrassed, and said
that the party had been busted, and she needed us to come and pick her
up. The police said she needed at least one parent to come. And she
was afraid she might have parked the car where it would have been
towed. She couldn't see it from where she was.
So I woke Keith up and told him. Keith had fallen asleep really early
because he had been helping clean a group camping site in Edgewood for
several hours Saturday morning and afternoon. Brett had been
planning to go to the party when I had gone to bed, but Brett had had
a too-long day at work and had come home to discuss that and to play
World of Warcraft. (Brett is Holly's boyfriend, who's staying with
us, for those new to the saga.)
Brett's car was in the driveway and the house was dark, so we went out
quietly. I thought maybe he could be spared the worry, and it's
possible that Holly wouldn't have wanted him there, but just us.
I went back to get a big flannel sheet, because besides "bust" Holly
had also mentioned "wrestling in pudding."
I knew where she was, because it was a house she'd never been to
before, hosting a party for a couple she's known separately a long
time, and together. One was having a birthday; the other had
sufficiently recovered from a broken neck in a car accident (he's
mobile), to share a party. She had been scheduled to go to his
birthday party a couple of months ago when he had the accident.
Brett and I had helped (by phone) figure out exactly where the house
was and how she could best get there from where she was after work.
For those who know Albuquerque, we're near the mountains (Juan Tabo
and Candelaria) and she was down past the university, across from
Roosevelt Park. It's eight miles or ten, maybe.
As we were driving, we discussed what the best tack to take would be.
We shouldn't be too cheery about it. We weren't going to act harsher
than we felt. I was thinking at that time it might be a marijuana
situation.
A mile from the house Marty called. He had been invited to the party,
but had opted to go to a couple of parties his girlfriend had been
invited to instead. They were done there, and he had called to see
if the birthday/recovery party was still on, and the birthday-person
answered her cell from her car, where she was driving drunks home.
She told Marty what she knew. So I was relieved it was alcohol and
pudding, rather than drugs.
Holly had been the second youngest person at the party. The sixteen
year old girl was asked "were you drinking?" and she said "no," so
they said "Go home." Everyone over 21 who could prove it was told
to go home. (Holly's unsure if any of them got citations). Holly had
said yes, about drinking, so they told her to call her parents. And
Holly didn't know the other girl, nor several of the people at the
party.
The birthday hostess (not resident) had wanted to stay with Holly but
the police told her she needed to leave and help get the intoxicated
friends safely home.
Marty (20, her brother) had been willing to go and get Holly, but I
told him it needed to be a parent and we were already on the way. So
he said he and Ashlee-his-girlfriend would go on to our house. I told
him Brett didn't know yet, so maybe not to bother him with it but let
Holly tell him, unless he asked directly. I thought he was asleep.
Just a minute or so later, Brett (25, her boyfriend) called. It was
2:40 or so by then, and he had been just about to go to sleep but
called Holly to see if she was okay and when she was coming back.
The police let her answer the phone. She told him we were on our way
to get her, so I told him what I knew and that Marty was on his way
home.
At that point I thought how cool it was that we were all in such close
communication. The day I was in an accident a couple or three weeks
ago, before I had left the scene, Keith and Holly and Brett were there
with me. Marty was at work, or he probably would've been there too.
We got to the house and she was sitting on the porch, chocolate
pudding in her hair and everywhere, drying. There were four
policemen, and another one in the house. Holly was the last one
there besides the two who lived there. She was wearing a t-shirt and
shorts, and was barefooted. I wrapped the flannel sheet around her.
Keith did the talking, and not much. Everyone was courteous and
somber but not tense. Keith apologized and thanked them, and the one
who was in charge of Holly before we got there said they were just
doing their jobs, and Keith said "Well, I need to do mine too," and
the guy said he was a parent too, and these things happen. So there
was no shaming or defensiveness or anything. She was cited, and I
can't read the details on our copy, but I think it's possession of
alcohol by a minor. Maybe it's consumption. It has a number I can't
see well enough to look it up.
Holly asked if she could go inside and go to the bathroom. The
officer said "You're in the custody of your parents now--it's up to
them." We all looked at each other. It wasn't my house; I didn't
know the residents. Keith said "Go pee."
While she was gone we talked a little. There was a big dark smear on
the bottom concrete step there by the front door. I said "I assume
that's pudding, and not blood." One of the cops said, "Yeah. There's
pudding everywhere in there. There's pudding on me." Another one
said "There's pudding on my flashlight." It would've been funny,
but we were all in straight-face, this isn't funny mode.
We'll be contacted by the juvenile probation department. The
policeman used the term "intake," and I asked what that meant. He
said they'll want to determine whether she needs alcohol abuse
treatment, and whether she's in a safe situation. Okay. I don't
think homeschooling will be an issue, and she's old enough to drop out
or graduate anyway, if she were in high school. She has two part-
time jobs, and that will help (if they don't pull a child labor law
trick out of the hat <g>). She hasn't been in trouble, and that will
help. No damage to people or property.
And the drinking she did was one jello shooter, and tastes of two
other people's drinks. She said she never had a drink of her own.
There weren't any drinking games. There were people there not
drinking at all.
She could have lied, but she didn't.
When she came out of the house she was crying--frustration and
embarrassment kind of crying. Stress.
Things seemed to be a smooth as possible under the circumstances.
When we were leaving, the police could leave, and the two guys who
lived there walked them out too, and said good night and thanks and
good bye, and Holly rode back with Keith in the van where the heater
had been on, and I followed them back in the car. When we got home
she was crying, but I do know she told Keith some of the story on the
way home and also talked to the birthday hostess to tell her she was
okay.
We got home and she went into the shower. I took the pudding clothes
and put them in the washing machine so I could turn it on right after
she turned the shower off. The laundry was her bikini top, the
Punisher t-shirt her friend Jared had taken off and put on her so
she'd be wearing more than just a bikini top and shorts, another t-
shirt someone had offered up for people to wipe jello off of them, and
she said she would bring back clean. Her shorts and underwear, and
the sheet.
She was unsettled and lightly agitated. I offered to sleep with her
in the library and she gratefully took me up on that. I closed down
the house, re-ran the laundry, left notes so Keith and Brett would
know where we were if they woke up, and went and fixed up that bed.
So I curled up behind her and stroked her hair and her arm and told
her I loved her and I was sorry she had cried, and she asked what I
was thinking about it all, and how much trouble she might be in. I
told her there might be a fine, and she'd probably have unsupervised
probation, since nobody was hurt and there wasn't any malice.
I don't know who all might've been charged besides Holly and the
resident hosts. I'm willing to provide follow-ups on this. If I'm
going to be telling how wonderful our lives are, it's only fair to
give some detail on the less than wonderful times.
Ashlee (now 23) told me last night that when she was 15 she spent the
night with a friend, and they got a ride to a party on the other end
of town. She grew up 20 miles north of here in Bernalillo, a little
farm town two miles long. The girls were walking home from the
party, really late, and the police came and took each of them to her
own home. Ashlee's parents grounded her from watching MTV for a year,
she said, because they were sure watching MTV had made her wild.
We're not grounding Holly from anything. We didn't congratulate her
or make light of it, but she was fully remorseful and is more
concerned about how we feel about it, and the inconvenience to us in
the middle of the night, than about her own outcome. She'll be 18 in
November, and juvenile offenses like this are wiped off, in New
Mexico. Or maybe it will be wiped when she's 21, or after the
probationary period; I don't know.
The police seemed to have felt better after they asked Holly whether
any of the girls were pudding-wrestling for money. Holly didn't
really understand the question, and I didn't even hear about it until
later, but it makes more sense now, thinking back to when the youngest
officer said "It was a party activity," and I said "Well I guess it's
good it wasn't just her and one other girl," and he said "No, they
were all doing it."
Keith says guys pay money to watch girls wrestle, so they were
wondering whether it was a sex show or prostitution. Oh, see? I
didn't even think about that.
One more story for now... She said she was the last one up the stairs
(the pudding pool was in the basement) and they had told all the girls
to sit on the couch. Most had showered, but the line for the shower
had been long, so Holly was still in the wading pool of pudding.
When she got up there, the resident host was in handcuffs, but once
they'd figured out the small extent of the problem, they took them
off. But she said she asked if she could sit on the floor instead
because she had pudding on her. They said sure.
When she told me that last night, I told her that was really nice of
her, and she said she wouldn't sit on anyone's couch with pudding on
her, even if the police told her to.
This is the end of my sordid tale of Holly's detainment by the
police. She was honest, she was considerate of her host's furniture,
she had had a jello shot (not at all strong, either, she said) and a
couple of drinks of others' mixed drinks. She was pudding-wrestling,
just for fun and not for money.
Because we still need to deal with the juvenile probation people and
she probably has to go to court, I don't want to put on my blog that
she's not being punished or grounded.
When Holly knew I was going to write this she said that was good,
because some unschoolers seem to think they're immune from the
possibility of getting into trouble.
I hope this doesn't keep anyone from wanting to continue with
unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is a difference between Holly being at a party and most teenagers
being at a party.
Holly was not acting out of a need to rebel, or from feelings of inadequacy
due to neglect, or from built-up contempt. She was having fun.
Pudding-wrestling...how fun does that sound?? I may suggest it at my kids'
next party...
I have three teenagers and one 20 year old (15, 17, 19, 20). I haven't told
the stories on here that weren't so pretty. I really admire your honesty.
My kids have been to parties with alcohol and pot. Three have tried pot.
They've had parties at our house where alcohol showed up. Some of their
friends smoke cigarettes. One of mine smokes cigarettes on occasion. And we
have two hookahs here. They are used about twice a month in a quiet social
setting. Sometimes they aren't used for months at a time (and I don't worry
about sheesha...they get the compressed fruit kind that is tobacco-free, and
it doesn't create smoke in the house).
But none of my kids are "into" pot, alcohol, cigarettes or drugs. Those are
minor items in the array of many more interesting things in life. They talk
openly about drugs and alcohol. They prefer to be home much of their spare
time.They seem to be gliding through these "troublesome" years. They are
authentically kind, listen well to people, open doors for others at the
grocery store, are openly thankful for things...they are good, good people.
But they have a variety of friends and go to a variety of places, so they
are as susceptible as the next kid to being arrested, detained or any other
legal situation. I know this when they are out, and I trust that they will
do their best in situations, but I could just as easily receive a call from
the police, not because I think my kids are regular law-breakers, but
because our society is set up that way.
Is the demon that young adults are engaging in these things in life, or is
the demon that we make it illegal?
Bravo to you and Holly and your family for being so supportive of each
other. It was really a beautiful story. And I'm sure it will produce laughs
later on. Maybe not now, but later. It isn't something to be ashamed of,
that's for sure.
Thanks for sharing,
Jacki
Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] I'll tell this here, but not on my blog
This is long, but everyone's fine. Those with young children or who
don't like long posts can skip it.
My introduction is that each of our children has been in trouble with
the law now.
Kirby drove his friend Joey home about four blocks, and he forgot to
turn his headlights on. We went to court and they let him pay the
fine without talking to the judge.
Marty was on a playground in a public park after hours (parks close at
10:00 or 10:30)--not drinking, not doing anything but playing on the
slides with three other people, one 21 and the others 18, 19. He did
two days of community service at the Red Cross office. (He reminded
me that he also was ticketed for stopping too hard at a stop light.
He stopped, but not gracefully, and we went to court and he paid a
fine and went to a driving class. No alcohol nor any other such thing
involved.)
Holly's is slightly worse than these.
Last night at 2:20 Holly (17) called on the house phone. There's one
by our bed. She sounded like she was afraid and embarrassed, and said
that the party had been busted, and she needed us to come and pick her
up. The police said she needed at least one parent to come. And she
was afraid she might have parked the car where it would have been
towed. She couldn't see it from where she was.
So I woke Keith up and told him. Keith had fallen asleep really early
because he had been helping clean a group camping site in Edgewood for
several hours Saturday morning and afternoon. Brett had been
planning to go to the party when I had gone to bed, but Brett had had
a too-long day at work and had come home to discuss that and to play
World of Warcraft. (Brett is Holly's boyfriend, who's staying with
us, for those new to the saga.)
Brett's car was in the driveway and the house was dark, so we went out
quietly. I thought maybe he could be spared the worry, and it's
possible that Holly wouldn't have wanted him there, but just us.
I went back to get a big flannel sheet, because besides "bust" Holly
had also mentioned "wrestling in pudding."
I knew where she was, because it was a house she'd never been to
before, hosting a party for a couple she's known separately a long
time, and together. One was having a birthday; the other had
sufficiently recovered from a broken neck in a car accident (he's
mobile), to share a party. She had been scheduled to go to his
birthday party a couple of months ago when he had the accident.
Brett and I had helped (by phone) figure out exactly where the house
was and how she could best get there from where she was after work.
For those who know Albuquerque, we're near the mountains (Juan Tabo
and Candelaria) and she was down past the university, across from
Roosevelt Park. It's eight miles or ten, maybe.
As we were driving, we discussed what the best tack to take would be.
We shouldn't be too cheery about it. We weren't going to act harsher
than we felt. I was thinking at that time it might be a marijuana
situation.
A mile from the house Marty called. He had been invited to the party,
but had opted to go to a couple of parties his girlfriend had been
invited to instead. They were done there, and he had called to see
if the birthday/recovery party was still on, and the birthday-person
answered her cell from her car, where she was driving drunks home.
She told Marty what she knew. So I was relieved it was alcohol and
pudding, rather than drugs.
Holly had been the second youngest person at the party. The sixteen
year old girl was asked "were you drinking?" and she said "no," so
they said "Go home." Everyone over 21 who could prove it was told
to go home. (Holly's unsure if any of them got citations). Holly had
said yes, about drinking, so they told her to call her parents. And
Holly didn't know the other girl, nor several of the people at the
party.
The birthday hostess (not resident) had wanted to stay with Holly but
the police told her she needed to leave and help get the intoxicated
friends safely home.
Marty (20, her brother) had been willing to go and get Holly, but I
told him it needed to be a parent and we were already on the way. So
he said he and Ashlee-his-girlfriend would go on to our house. I told
him Brett didn't know yet, so maybe not to bother him with it but let
Holly tell him, unless he asked directly. I thought he was asleep.
Just a minute or so later, Brett (25, her boyfriend) called. It was
2:40 or so by then, and he had been just about to go to sleep but
called Holly to see if she was okay and when she was coming back.
The police let her answer the phone. She told him we were on our way
to get her, so I told him what I knew and that Marty was on his way
home.
At that point I thought how cool it was that we were all in such close
communication. The day I was in an accident a couple or three weeks
ago, before I had left the scene, Keith and Holly and Brett were there
with me. Marty was at work, or he probably would've been there too.
We got to the house and she was sitting on the porch, chocolate
pudding in her hair and everywhere, drying. There were four
policemen, and another one in the house. Holly was the last one
there besides the two who lived there. She was wearing a t-shirt and
shorts, and was barefooted. I wrapped the flannel sheet around her.
Keith did the talking, and not much. Everyone was courteous and
somber but not tense. Keith apologized and thanked them, and the one
who was in charge of Holly before we got there said they were just
doing their jobs, and Keith said "Well, I need to do mine too," and
the guy said he was a parent too, and these things happen. So there
was no shaming or defensiveness or anything. She was cited, and I
can't read the details on our copy, but I think it's possession of
alcohol by a minor. Maybe it's consumption. It has a number I can't
see well enough to look it up.
Holly asked if she could go inside and go to the bathroom. The
officer said "You're in the custody of your parents now--it's up to
them." We all looked at each other. It wasn't my house; I didn't
know the residents. Keith said "Go pee."
While she was gone we talked a little. There was a big dark smear on
the bottom concrete step there by the front door. I said "I assume
that's pudding, and not blood." One of the cops said, "Yeah. There's
pudding everywhere in there. There's pudding on me." Another one
said "There's pudding on my flashlight." It would've been funny,
but we were all in straight-face, this isn't funny mode.
We'll be contacted by the juvenile probation department. The
policeman used the term "intake," and I asked what that meant. He
said they'll want to determine whether she needs alcohol abuse
treatment, and whether she's in a safe situation. Okay. I don't
think homeschooling will be an issue, and she's old enough to drop out
or graduate anyway, if she were in high school. She has two part-
time jobs, and that will help (if they don't pull a child labor law
trick out of the hat <g>). She hasn't been in trouble, and that will
help. No damage to people or property.
And the drinking she did was one jello shooter, and tastes of two
other people's drinks. She said she never had a drink of her own.
There weren't any drinking games. There were people there not
drinking at all.
She could have lied, but she didn't.
When she came out of the house she was crying--frustration and
embarrassment kind of crying. Stress.
Things seemed to be a smooth as possible under the circumstances.
When we were leaving, the police could leave, and the two guys who
lived there walked them out too, and said good night and thanks and
good bye, and Holly rode back with Keith in the van where the heater
had been on, and I followed them back in the car. When we got home
she was crying, but I do know she told Keith some of the story on the
way home and also talked to the birthday hostess to tell her she was
okay.
We got home and she went into the shower. I took the pudding clothes
and put them in the washing machine so I could turn it on right after
she turned the shower off. The laundry was her bikini top, the
Punisher t-shirt her friend Jared had taken off and put on her so
she'd be wearing more than just a bikini top and shorts, another t-
shirt someone had offered up for people to wipe jello off of them, and
she said she would bring back clean. Her shorts and underwear, and
the sheet.
She was unsettled and lightly agitated. I offered to sleep with her
in the library and she gratefully took me up on that. I closed down
the house, re-ran the laundry, left notes so Keith and Brett would
know where we were if they woke up, and went and fixed up that bed.
So I curled up behind her and stroked her hair and her arm and told
her I loved her and I was sorry she had cried, and she asked what I
was thinking about it all, and how much trouble she might be in. I
told her there might be a fine, and she'd probably have unsupervised
probation, since nobody was hurt and there wasn't any malice.
I don't know who all might've been charged besides Holly and the
resident hosts. I'm willing to provide follow-ups on this. If I'm
going to be telling how wonderful our lives are, it's only fair to
give some detail on the less than wonderful times.
Ashlee (now 23) told me last night that when she was 15 she spent the
night with a friend, and they got a ride to a party on the other end
of town. She grew up 20 miles north of here in Bernalillo, a little
farm town two miles long. The girls were walking home from the
party, really late, and the police came and took each of them to her
own home. Ashlee's parents grounded her from watching MTV for a year,
she said, because they were sure watching MTV had made her wild.
We're not grounding Holly from anything. We didn't congratulate her
or make light of it, but she was fully remorseful and is more
concerned about how we feel about it, and the inconvenience to us in
the middle of the night, than about her own outcome. She'll be 18 in
November, and juvenile offenses like this are wiped off, in New
Mexico. Or maybe it will be wiped when she's 21, or after the
probationary period; I don't know.
The police seemed to have felt better after they asked Holly whether
any of the girls were pudding-wrestling for money. Holly didn't
really understand the question, and I didn't even hear about it until
later, but it makes more sense now, thinking back to when the youngest
officer said "It was a party activity," and I said "Well I guess it's
good it wasn't just her and one other girl," and he said "No, they
were all doing it."
Keith says guys pay money to watch girls wrestle, so they were
wondering whether it was a sex show or prostitution. Oh, see? I
didn't even think about that.
One more story for now... She said she was the last one up the stairs
(the pudding pool was in the basement) and they had told all the girls
to sit on the couch. Most had showered, but the line for the shower
had been long, so Holly was still in the wading pool of pudding.
When she got up there, the resident host was in handcuffs, but once
they'd figured out the small extent of the problem, they took them
off. But she said she asked if she could sit on the floor instead
because she had pudding on her. They said sure.
When she told me that last night, I told her that was really nice of
her, and she said she wouldn't sit on anyone's couch with pudding on
her, even if the police told her to.
This is the end of my sordid tale of Holly's detainment by the
police. She was honest, she was considerate of her host's furniture,
she had had a jello shot (not at all strong, either, she said) and a
couple of drinks of others' mixed drinks. She was pudding-wrestling,
just for fun and not for money.
Because we still need to deal with the juvenile probation people and
she probably has to go to court, I don't want to put on my blog that
she's not being punished or grounded.
When Holly knew I was going to write this she said that was good,
because some unschoolers seem to think they're immune from the
possibility of getting into trouble.
I hope this doesn't keep anyone from wanting to continue with
unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
So I read this whole thing and started crying. It was this paragraph:
"She was unsettled and lightly agitated. I offered to sleep with her
in the library and she gratefully took me up on that. I closed down
the house, re-ran the laundry, left notes so Keith and Brett would
know where we were if they woke up, and went and fixed up that bed.
So I curled up behind her and stroked her hair and her arm and told
her I loved her and I was sorry she had cried, and she asked what I
was thinking about it all, and how much trouble she might be in. I
told her there might be a fine, and she'd probably have unsupervised
probation, since nobody was hurt and there wasn't any malice."
that started me crying. I can remember going to parties where the police showed up. I can remember running and jumping fences so that minors weren't present at a party with alcohol or staying and sitting while the police yelled at us. I didn't drink, so it wasn't my drinking that would have put the host at risk. My parents weren't ever called. If they had been called I don't imagine the response would have been them holding me and stroking my hair and telling me that they loved me. I don't imagine that it would have been anything but grounding and yelling and shaming.
Thank you for sharing this.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"She was unsettled and lightly agitated. I offered to sleep with her
in the library and she gratefully took me up on that. I closed down
the house, re-ran the laundry, left notes so Keith and Brett would
know where we were if they woke up, and went and fixed up that bed.
So I curled up behind her and stroked her hair and her arm and told
her I loved her and I was sorry she had cried, and she asked what I
was thinking about it all, and how much trouble she might be in. I
told her there might be a fine, and she'd probably have unsupervised
probation, since nobody was hurt and there wasn't any malice."
that started me crying. I can remember going to parties where the police showed up. I can remember running and jumping fences so that minors weren't present at a party with alcohol or staying and sitting while the police yelled at us. I didn't drink, so it wasn't my drinking that would have put the host at risk. My parents weren't ever called. If they had been called I don't imagine the response would have been them holding me and stroking my hair and telling me that they loved me. I don't imagine that it would have been anything but grounding and yelling and shaming.
Thank you for sharing this.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kris
Thank you so much, to Holly as well, for sharing this. If I weren't an
unschooler already it would be an evidence of how the relationship it
fosters with our children carries us through the most unexpected moments.
Lanora hasn't encountered anything like this so far but Jonathan isn't a
teen yet. I was at countless parties which could have gone this way so
easily. My heart goes out to Holly, her honesty cost her some hassle but
not her integrity, hopefully the frustration and embarrassment will be
replaced by some good chuckles over the situation someday.
Kris
unschooler already it would be an evidence of how the relationship it
fosters with our children carries us through the most unexpected moments.
Lanora hasn't encountered anything like this so far but Jonathan isn't a
teen yet. I was at countless parties which could have gone this way so
easily. My heart goes out to Holly, her honesty cost her some hassle but
not her integrity, hopefully the frustration and embarrassment will be
replaced by some good chuckles over the situation someday.
Kris
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> When Holly knew I was going to write this she said that was good,
> because some unschoolers seem to think they're immune from the
> possibility of getting into trouble.
>
> I hope this doesn't keep anyone from wanting to continue with
> unschooling.
>
> Sandra
>
--
A little Madness in the Spring Is wholesome even for the King. - Emily
Dickinson
I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
#1: I see young adults getting feeling SAFE to turn to
their parents when they are in trouble. I *WANT* to
have that kind of relationship with my children as
they continue to grow. Why would this story deter
me from unschooling? Quite the opposite and I thank
you for sharing it.
#2: I also see that these situations are mild compared
with the hair-raising sex and drugs stories I am hearing
from parents of schooled kids... and I mean kids in middle
school! I'm sure they don't feel "mild" when you are talking
to the police, but still...
...I refer back to point #1.
Again, thank you.
Kelly Sturman
their parents when they are in trouble. I *WANT* to
have that kind of relationship with my children as
they continue to grow. Why would this story deter
me from unschooling? Quite the opposite and I thank
you for sharing it.
#2: I also see that these situations are mild compared
with the hair-raising sex and drugs stories I am hearing
from parents of schooled kids... and I mean kids in middle
school! I'm sure they don't feel "mild" when you are talking
to the police, but still...
...I refer back to point #1.
Again, thank you.
Kelly Sturman
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I hope this doesn't keep anyone from wanting to continue with
> unschooling.
>
> Sandra
>
Dina
Mother of a young child here and I'm so grateful to you and Holly for sharing your story. It is truly touching to hear how close you are and that you are able to be with your kids in the face of trying times. I only hope that I will have that kind of relationship with my child throughout his life.
For me, this story would never turn me away from unschooling. If anything, it solidifies our decision. Its wonderful that you have such unconditional love for your family. Makes me wish I grew up with you instead of my family of origin!
Thanks,
Dina
For me, this story would never turn me away from unschooling. If anything, it solidifies our decision. Its wonderful that you have such unconditional love for your family. Makes me wish I grew up with you instead of my family of origin!
Thanks,
Dina
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> This is long, but everyone's fine. Those with young children or who
> don't like long posts can skip it.
>
> My introduction is that each of our children has been in trouble with
> the law now.
> Kirby drove his friend Joey home about four blocks, and he forgot to
> turn his headlights on. We went to court and they let him pay the
> fine without talking to the judge.
>
> Marty was on a playground in a public park after hours (parks close at
> 10:00 or 10:30)--not drinking, not doing anything but playing on the
> slides with three other people, one 21 and the others 18, 19. He did
> two days of community service at the Red Cross office. (He reminded
> me that he also was ticketed for stopping too hard at a stop light.
> He stopped, but not gracefully, and we went to court and he paid a
> fine and went to a driving class. No alcohol nor any other such thing
> involved.)
>
> Holly's is slightly worse than these.
>
>
> Last night at 2:20 Holly (17) called on the house phone. There's one
> by our bed. She sounded like she was afraid and embarrassed, and said
> that the party had been busted, and she needed us to come and pick her
> up. The police said she needed at least one parent to come. And she
> was afraid she might have parked the car where it would have been
> towed. She couldn't see it from where she was.
>
> So I woke Keith up and told him. Keith had fallen asleep really early
> because he had been helping clean a group camping site in Edgewood for
> several hours Saturday morning and afternoon. Brett had been
> planning to go to the party when I had gone to bed, but Brett had had
> a too-long day at work and had come home to discuss that and to play
> World of Warcraft. (Brett is Holly's boyfriend, who's staying with
> us, for those new to the saga.)
>
> Brett's car was in the driveway and the house was dark, so we went out
> quietly. I thought maybe he could be spared the worry, and it's
> possible that Holly wouldn't have wanted him there, but just us.
>
> I went back to get a big flannel sheet, because besides "bust" Holly
> had also mentioned "wrestling in pudding."
>
> I knew where she was, because it was a house she'd never been to
> before, hosting a party for a couple she's known separately a long
> time, and together. One was having a birthday; the other had
> sufficiently recovered from a broken neck in a car accident (he's
> mobile), to share a party. She had been scheduled to go to his
> birthday party a couple of months ago when he had the accident.
> Brett and I had helped (by phone) figure out exactly where the house
> was and how she could best get there from where she was after work.
>
> For those who know Albuquerque, we're near the mountains (Juan Tabo
> and Candelaria) and she was down past the university, across from
> Roosevelt Park. It's eight miles or ten, maybe.
>
> As we were driving, we discussed what the best tack to take would be.
> We shouldn't be too cheery about it. We weren't going to act harsher
> than we felt. I was thinking at that time it might be a marijuana
> situation.
>
> A mile from the house Marty called. He had been invited to the party,
> but had opted to go to a couple of parties his girlfriend had been
> invited to instead. They were done there, and he had called to see
> if the birthday/recovery party was still on, and the birthday-person
> answered her cell from her car, where she was driving drunks home.
> She told Marty what she knew. So I was relieved it was alcohol and
> pudding, rather than drugs.
>
> Holly had been the second youngest person at the party. The sixteen
> year old girl was asked "were you drinking?" and she said "no," so
> they said "Go home." Everyone over 21 who could prove it was told
> to go home. (Holly's unsure if any of them got citations). Holly had
> said yes, about drinking, so they told her to call her parents. And
> Holly didn't know the other girl, nor several of the people at the
> party.
>
> The birthday hostess (not resident) had wanted to stay with Holly but
> the police told her she needed to leave and help get the intoxicated
> friends safely home.
>
> Marty (20, her brother) had been willing to go and get Holly, but I
> told him it needed to be a parent and we were already on the way. So
> he said he and Ashlee-his-girlfriend would go on to our house. I told
> him Brett didn't know yet, so maybe not to bother him with it but let
> Holly tell him, unless he asked directly. I thought he was asleep.
>
> Just a minute or so later, Brett (25, her boyfriend) called. It was
> 2:40 or so by then, and he had been just about to go to sleep but
> called Holly to see if she was okay and when she was coming back.
> The police let her answer the phone. She told him we were on our way
> to get her, so I told him what I knew and that Marty was on his way
> home.
>
> At that point I thought how cool it was that we were all in such close
> communication. The day I was in an accident a couple or three weeks
> ago, before I had left the scene, Keith and Holly and Brett were there
> with me. Marty was at work, or he probably would've been there too.
>
> We got to the house and she was sitting on the porch, chocolate
> pudding in her hair and everywhere, drying. There were four
> policemen, and another one in the house. Holly was the last one
> there besides the two who lived there. She was wearing a t-shirt and
> shorts, and was barefooted. I wrapped the flannel sheet around her.
> Keith did the talking, and not much. Everyone was courteous and
> somber but not tense. Keith apologized and thanked them, and the one
> who was in charge of Holly before we got there said they were just
> doing their jobs, and Keith said "Well, I need to do mine too," and
> the guy said he was a parent too, and these things happen. So there
> was no shaming or defensiveness or anything. She was cited, and I
> can't read the details on our copy, but I think it's possession of
> alcohol by a minor. Maybe it's consumption. It has a number I can't
> see well enough to look it up.
>
> Holly asked if she could go inside and go to the bathroom. The
> officer said "You're in the custody of your parents now--it's up to
> them." We all looked at each other. It wasn't my house; I didn't
> know the residents. Keith said "Go pee."
>
> While she was gone we talked a little. There was a big dark smear on
> the bottom concrete step there by the front door. I said "I assume
> that's pudding, and not blood." One of the cops said, "Yeah. There's
> pudding everywhere in there. There's pudding on me." Another one
> said "There's pudding on my flashlight." It would've been funny,
> but we were all in straight-face, this isn't funny mode.
>
> We'll be contacted by the juvenile probation department. The
> policeman used the term "intake," and I asked what that meant. He
> said they'll want to determine whether she needs alcohol abuse
> treatment, and whether she's in a safe situation. Okay. I don't
> think homeschooling will be an issue, and she's old enough to drop out
> or graduate anyway, if she were in high school. She has two part-
> time jobs, and that will help (if they don't pull a child labor law
> trick out of the hat <g>). She hasn't been in trouble, and that will
> help. No damage to people or property.
>
> And the drinking she did was one jello shooter, and tastes of two
> other people's drinks. She said she never had a drink of her own.
> There weren't any drinking games. There were people there not
> drinking at all.
>
> She could have lied, but she didn't.
>
> When she came out of the house she was crying--frustration and
> embarrassment kind of crying. Stress.
>
> Things seemed to be a smooth as possible under the circumstances.
> When we were leaving, the police could leave, and the two guys who
> lived there walked them out too, and said good night and thanks and
> good bye, and Holly rode back with Keith in the van where the heater
> had been on, and I followed them back in the car. When we got home
> she was crying, but I do know she told Keith some of the story on the
> way home and also talked to the birthday hostess to tell her she was
> okay.
>
> We got home and she went into the shower. I took the pudding clothes
> and put them in the washing machine so I could turn it on right after
> she turned the shower off. The laundry was her bikini top, the
> Punisher t-shirt her friend Jared had taken off and put on her so
> she'd be wearing more than just a bikini top and shorts, another t-
> shirt someone had offered up for people to wipe jello off of them, and
> she said she would bring back clean. Her shorts and underwear, and
> the sheet.
>
> She was unsettled and lightly agitated. I offered to sleep with her
> in the library and she gratefully took me up on that. I closed down
> the house, re-ran the laundry, left notes so Keith and Brett would
> know where we were if they woke up, and went and fixed up that bed.
> So I curled up behind her and stroked her hair and her arm and told
> her I loved her and I was sorry she had cried, and she asked what I
> was thinking about it all, and how much trouble she might be in. I
> told her there might be a fine, and she'd probably have unsupervised
> probation, since nobody was hurt and there wasn't any malice.
>
> I don't know who all might've been charged besides Holly and the
> resident hosts. I'm willing to provide follow-ups on this. If I'm
> going to be telling how wonderful our lives are, it's only fair to
> give some detail on the less than wonderful times.
>
> Ashlee (now 23) told me last night that when she was 15 she spent the
> night with a friend, and they got a ride to a party on the other end
> of town. She grew up 20 miles north of here in Bernalillo, a little
> farm town two miles long. The girls were walking home from the
> party, really late, and the police came and took each of them to her
> own home. Ashlee's parents grounded her from watching MTV for a year,
> she said, because they were sure watching MTV had made her wild.
>
> We're not grounding Holly from anything. We didn't congratulate her
> or make light of it, but she was fully remorseful and is more
> concerned about how we feel about it, and the inconvenience to us in
> the middle of the night, than about her own outcome. She'll be 18 in
> November, and juvenile offenses like this are wiped off, in New
> Mexico. Or maybe it will be wiped when she's 21, or after the
> probationary period; I don't know.
>
> The police seemed to have felt better after they asked Holly whether
> any of the girls were pudding-wrestling for money. Holly didn't
> really understand the question, and I didn't even hear about it until
> later, but it makes more sense now, thinking back to when the youngest
> officer said "It was a party activity," and I said "Well I guess it's
> good it wasn't just her and one other girl," and he said "No, they
> were all doing it."
>
> Keith says guys pay money to watch girls wrestle, so they were
> wondering whether it was a sex show or prostitution. Oh, see? I
> didn't even think about that.
>
> One more story for now... She said she was the last one up the stairs
> (the pudding pool was in the basement) and they had told all the girls
> to sit on the couch. Most had showered, but the line for the shower
> had been long, so Holly was still in the wading pool of pudding.
> When she got up there, the resident host was in handcuffs, but once
> they'd figured out the small extent of the problem, they took them
> off. But she said she asked if she could sit on the floor instead
> because she had pudding on her. They said sure.
>
> When she told me that last night, I told her that was really nice of
> her, and she said she wouldn't sit on anyone's couch with pudding on
> her, even if the police told her to.
>
> This is the end of my sordid tale of Holly's detainment by the
> police. She was honest, she was considerate of her host's furniture,
> she had had a jello shot (not at all strong, either, she said) and a
> couple of drinks of others' mixed drinks. She was pudding-wrestling,
> just for fun and not for money.
>
> Because we still need to deal with the juvenile probation people and
> she probably has to go to court, I don't want to put on my blog that
> she's not being punished or grounded.
>
> When Holly knew I was going to write this she said that was good,
> because some unschoolers seem to think they're immune from the
> possibility of getting into trouble.
>
>
> I hope this doesn't keep anyone from wanting to continue with
> unschooling.
>
> Sandra
>
MrsStranahan
===On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Kris <kris1956@...> wrote:
My heart goes out to Holly, her honesty cost her some hassle but
matter of integrity.
If you can avoid a huge amount of hassle and expense by not telling the
truth, then why do it? It's like being a kid with a bad parent .. why would
I tell you the truth when I know what you are going to do to me if I do?
In my experience, the cops are not anyone's friend. They don't have your
best interest at heart. It isn't personal relationship that would have been
damaged by lying.
But I'm totally curious about what other people think about lying in these
types of situations.
Lauren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My heart goes out to Holly, her honesty cost her some hassle but
>Under these circumstances I don't think lying or telling the truth is a
> not her integrity, hopefully the frustration and embarrassment will be
> replaced by some good chuckles over the situation someday.
>
> Kris===
>
matter of integrity.
If you can avoid a huge amount of hassle and expense by not telling the
truth, then why do it? It's like being a kid with a bad parent .. why would
I tell you the truth when I know what you are going to do to me if I do?
In my experience, the cops are not anyone's friend. They don't have your
best interest at heart. It isn't personal relationship that would have been
damaged by lying.
But I'm totally curious about what other people think about lying in these
types of situations.
Lauren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>>> I hope this doesn't keep anyone from wanting to continue withunschooling. <<<<
Well no. What it does is give a clear picture of how important it is
to cultivate and keep strong relationships going with your children, so
that when stuff like this happens there's no fear of what one's kids
may be doing wrong when you're not looking... to the extent that you'd
be concerned you're being lied to or other dishonest is going on that
you can't help your child with. I'd hate to be faced with a situation
like this *not* knowing one way or the other and feeling helpless.
It's a plus for growing as much trust as you can while you can. And
it's a bit of a kick in the rear to get serious about it and not wait
around. Because trust is part of the active effort of being with Karl,
and for me, it doesn't grow itself.
~Katherine
Jenny C
> In my experience, the cops are not anyone's friend. They don't haveyour
> best interest at heart. It isn't personal relationship that would havebeen
> damaged by lying.these
>
> But I'm totally curious about what other people think about lying in
> types of situations.I tell my kids that police officers are supposed to be the keepers of
>
peace. That is their job. It's not always how it plays out, but in
light of seeing people for the best that they can be, I'd still like my
kids to know that. That is what a police officer is supposed to do.
On many occasions, Chamille wants to walk to the local convenience store
after curfew, with friends. It's about 2 blocks away. I've told them
always, to be quiet and keep a low profile, and if confronted, to tell
the truth, that they are walking to the 7-11 to get some snacks and
going straight home and that they have permission to do so and that they
live just 2 blocks away. Curfew where were we live is really early and
police are very strict about it. I personally think it's a little
extreme, especially on weekends. I've never had a problem with it and I
really think that if they are being kind and truthful, things will go
better for them.
Chamille is really honest about things. I've known her to lie once, and
it was because she was backed into a corner, verbally, by another adult
who was yelling at her over the phone. We talked about how to handle
that sort of situation in the future, but that was her response at the
time because she was upset and afraid. She knows that she can hang up
on someone who is yelling at her over the phone, and she also knows that
if she gets the chance, she can retract the lie she told and apologize
for having lied.
I really like Chamille's honesty. She has friends that aren't always
honest, and it's hard to know where you stand in those circumstances. I
don't like being made into a patsy believing someone who's lied to me.
Sometimes I've told Chamille that a don't ask, don't tell policy is
better than outright lying. I don't like knowing that a kid is sneaking
over to our house against their parent's wishes. I'd rather not be in
the know on that. If a kid wants to be dishonest to their own parents,
that's one thing, by telling me, they are making me responsible for it.
Sometimes Chamille tells me anyway simply because she's very honest and
we discuss the pros and cons of knowing and not knowing about someone
else's misdeeds and being party to it.
Kris
I may advise my child to keep silent but to encourage the violation of her
conscience could bring much more harm than any brush with the law.
Kris
conscience could bring much more harm than any brush with the law.
Kris
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 1:14 PM, MrsStranahan <mrsstranahan@...>wrote:
> But I'm totally curious about what other people think about lying in these
> types of situations.
>
> Lauren
>
--
A little Madness in the Spring Is wholesome even for the King. - Emily
Dickinson
I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Under these circumstances I don't think lying or telling the truth
is a
matter of integrity.-=-
I think it is.
There was a murder trial here recently and a friend of mine was the
prosecutor. His witnesses were lying. What a waste of time and
energy and money.
-=-If you can avoid a huge amount of hassle and expense by not telling
the
truth, then why do it? It's like being a kid with a bad parent .. why
would
I tell you the truth when I know what you are going to do to me if I do?
-=-
Because my kids grew up with good parents, I guess, they haven't
learned that kind of judgment of when and why they might want to lie.
I'm glad.
The crime last night was really disturbing the peace. Neighbors
called about noise. The noise was undeniable, but I don't think
anyone was charged with disturbing the peace, because there was alcohol.
-=-In my experience, the cops are not anyone's friend. They don't have
your
best interest at heart. -=-
The cops seemed like decent guys from what I saw. I don't want the
police to have my neighbors' comfort in mind if I call them about
firing that BB gun into my yard sometime. I want them to have MY
comfort in mind. And last night, the neighbors of the house where
the party was were well served.
The major concern the police had last night was described to me and
Keith while Holly was in the bathroom. There were underage girls,
lots of mid-twenties men, and liquor. That was no time to defend
Holly's abilities and judgment. She was covered in chocolate
pudding. Those of the guys there I know are gaming geeks and comic
book fans. They were friends of her two big brothers, and of her
boyfriend. It was not the college jocks and the high school
cheerleaders. No sense talking to the cops about that, though.
Their description was accurate, and it's not a good situation for
needy girls without strong voices who might not be able to call their
dads at 3:00 in the morning for a rescue.
-=-It isn't personal relationship that would have been damaged by
lying.-=-
Integrity isn't about relationships with other people so much as it's
being whole and true and centered. To save a child's life, I would
lie to a bad guy.
With my kids, since they were little we've talked about living in such
a way that you are willing to admit what you've done. Integrity
starts before that point when the police are asking what happened.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is a
matter of integrity.-=-
I think it is.
There was a murder trial here recently and a friend of mine was the
prosecutor. His witnesses were lying. What a waste of time and
energy and money.
-=-If you can avoid a huge amount of hassle and expense by not telling
the
truth, then why do it? It's like being a kid with a bad parent .. why
would
I tell you the truth when I know what you are going to do to me if I do?
-=-
Because my kids grew up with good parents, I guess, they haven't
learned that kind of judgment of when and why they might want to lie.
I'm glad.
The crime last night was really disturbing the peace. Neighbors
called about noise. The noise was undeniable, but I don't think
anyone was charged with disturbing the peace, because there was alcohol.
-=-In my experience, the cops are not anyone's friend. They don't have
your
best interest at heart. -=-
The cops seemed like decent guys from what I saw. I don't want the
police to have my neighbors' comfort in mind if I call them about
firing that BB gun into my yard sometime. I want them to have MY
comfort in mind. And last night, the neighbors of the house where
the party was were well served.
The major concern the police had last night was described to me and
Keith while Holly was in the bathroom. There were underage girls,
lots of mid-twenties men, and liquor. That was no time to defend
Holly's abilities and judgment. She was covered in chocolate
pudding. Those of the guys there I know are gaming geeks and comic
book fans. They were friends of her two big brothers, and of her
boyfriend. It was not the college jocks and the high school
cheerleaders. No sense talking to the cops about that, though.
Their description was accurate, and it's not a good situation for
needy girls without strong voices who might not be able to call their
dads at 3:00 in the morning for a rescue.
-=-It isn't personal relationship that would have been damaged by
lying.-=-
Integrity isn't about relationships with other people so much as it's
being whole and true and centered. To save a child's life, I would
lie to a bad guy.
With my kids, since they were little we've talked about living in such
a way that you are willing to admit what you've done. Integrity
starts before that point when the police are asking what happened.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Verna
>I disagree with you whole heartedly. It takes a person with a strong sense of self and integrity to tell the truth, even when it might mean more of a hassle or loss of money etc...
> -=-If you can avoid a huge amount of hassle and expense by not telling
> the
> truth, then why do it? It's like being a kid with a bad parent .. why
> would
> I tell you the truth when I know what you are going to do to me if I do?
MrsStranahan
For me this is an example of rules vs. principles and the principle is
justice.
If Holly had damaged someone's property or hurt someone and could have
gotten away with it but is honest and tells the truth about what happened
that would also be a hassle and cost money, but it's a just action. It's a
smart, good, ethical thing to do. That's justice.
Having a jello shot didn't disturb the peace and justice doesn't require
that she take some ridiculous class, pay a fine and have something on her
record until she reaches adulthood. I don't see any justice in what
happened.
And if the counter-argument is "she broke the law" that comes down to rules
vs. principles. It's an issue of integrity when it relates to justice and
fairness.
If Holly had just said "Nope, I wasn't drinking." She would have been sent
home. No harm would have come to anybody. There's no injustice in that. She
would still be whole, true and centered.
I am not saying Holly did anything wrong in telling the truth, but I don't
think there would have been anything wrong with her choosing to lie in that
situation. I do think the girl who said she hadn't been drinking is in a
better position right now than Holly.
Lauren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
justice.
If Holly had damaged someone's property or hurt someone and could have
gotten away with it but is honest and tells the truth about what happened
that would also be a hassle and cost money, but it's a just action. It's a
smart, good, ethical thing to do. That's justice.
Having a jello shot didn't disturb the peace and justice doesn't require
that she take some ridiculous class, pay a fine and have something on her
record until she reaches adulthood. I don't see any justice in what
happened.
And if the counter-argument is "she broke the law" that comes down to rules
vs. principles. It's an issue of integrity when it relates to justice and
fairness.
If Holly had just said "Nope, I wasn't drinking." She would have been sent
home. No harm would have come to anybody. There's no injustice in that. She
would still be whole, true and centered.
I am not saying Holly did anything wrong in telling the truth, but I don't
think there would have been anything wrong with her choosing to lie in that
situation. I do think the girl who said she hadn't been drinking is in a
better position right now than Holly.
Lauren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], "Verna" <lalow@...> wrote:
Invalidating a standardized test is a sort of a lie, but
if you do not believe in standardized testing, then
there is integrity in that action.
We drift into the territory of what is ethical vs. what
is legal or illegal.
My POV is that the most important part is that Holly was
honest with Sandra.
Kelly
>But it also takes integrity to lie, sometimes.
>
> >
> > -=-If you can avoid a huge amount of hassle and expense by not telling
> > the truth, then why do it? It's like being a kid with a bad parent .. why
> > would I tell you the truth when I know what you are going to do to me if I do?
>
> I disagree with you whole heartedly. It takes a person with a strong sense of self and integrity to tell the truth, even when it might mean more of a hassle or loss of money etc...
Invalidating a standardized test is a sort of a lie, but
if you do not believe in standardized testing, then
there is integrity in that action.
We drift into the territory of what is ethical vs. what
is legal or illegal.
My POV is that the most important part is that Holly was
honest with Sandra.
Kelly
Tammy Curry
This actually touched me very deeply. We are still learning and making mistakes along the way. However, it shows that life is a bed of roses thorns and all. We all make mistakes and should take responsibility for them but having close, loving relationships to help support us even then is just as important. It is something my family is seeing more and more. There was no reason for Holly to lie, she had her family to support her and love her and just as important no one stood and judged her actions.
As for the police officers, I have run into good, bad, and indifferent. It sounds like the good ones showed up. I can understand their concerns having once been one of those wild ones at wild parties where we actually were on a first name basis with our local PD very quickly. Having your own guiding principles does not always mean they will supersede laws that are in effect. A mistake was made and a law was broken, one of the reasons records are sealed at 18 for most incidents like this is because young people do make mistakes. Once they are of the majority they have, in most cases, learned and moved on, so they get a fresh start in the next stage of life's journey.
Life happens, we learn and move on.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As for the police officers, I have run into good, bad, and indifferent. It sounds like the good ones showed up. I can understand their concerns having once been one of those wild ones at wild parties where we actually were on a first name basis with our local PD very quickly. Having your own guiding principles does not always mean they will supersede laws that are in effect. A mistake was made and a law was broken, one of the reasons records are sealed at 18 for most incidents like this is because young people do make mistakes. Once they are of the majority they have, in most cases, learned and moved on, so they get a fresh start in the next stage of life's journey.
Life happens, we learn and move on.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
{{{H ugs}}} to you and Holly, Sandra. My older (public-schooled) kids have each been involved in things like this at one time or another. They are now 22, 18, and 16 but they've always told me the truth, I think because our relationship was always open and trusting, and because I was never the type to ground or punish. (I have one friend who still has trouble wrapping her mind around the fact that my boys managed to make it to adulthood without ever having been grounded.)
Last year, my daughter, who was 15 at the time, got caught shoplifting at the mall with a friend. They led her, handcuffed, in tears, through the public part of the mall, and she eventually had to do community service and write a letter of apology (although none of it is on her record). On the way home, we had a serious talk, in which I shared that I had been caught shop lifting at the same age. I was angry, and she knew it, but I wanted to let her know that I understood, and that I love her no matter what.
I didn't ground her or punish her in any way, but s he recently told me that the worst moment of her life so far was when I came to pick her up at the police station and she saw the look on my face. I don't remember what kind of expression I was wearing (anger? disappointment?) , but she said she had never seen it before, and never wants to see it again.
I think most people who are drawn to unschooling are probably the kind of parents who already have open, trusting relationships with their kids, and that will help ease those inevitable bumps in the road during the teen years (and the bumps are inevitable, no matter how the kids are schooled.) I know how you're feeling right now, but I bet everything will turn out just fine.
Denise
Last year, my daughter, who was 15 at the time, got caught shoplifting at the mall with a friend. They led her, handcuffed, in tears, through the public part of the mall, and she eventually had to do community service and write a letter of apology (although none of it is on her record). On the way home, we had a serious talk, in which I shared that I had been caught shop lifting at the same age. I was angry, and she knew it, but I wanted to let her know that I understood, and that I love her no matter what.
I didn't ground her or punish her in any way, but s he recently told me that the worst moment of her life so far was when I came to pick her up at the police station and she saw the look on my face. I don't remember what kind of expression I was wearing (anger? disappointment?) , but she said she had never seen it before, and never wants to see it again.
I think most people who are drawn to unschooling are probably the kind of parents who already have open, trusting relationships with their kids, and that will help ease those inevitable bumps in the road during the teen years (and the bumps are inevitable, no matter how the kids are schooled.) I know how you're feeling right now, but I bet everything will turn out just fine.
Denise
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 9:26:37 AM GMT -09:00 Alaska
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] I'll tell this here, but not on my blog
This is long, but everyone's fine. Those with young children or who
don't like long posts can skip it.
My introduction is that each of our children has been in trouble with
the law now.
Kirby drove his friend Joey home about four blocks, and he forgot to
turn his headlights on. We went to court and they let him pay the
fine without talking to the judge.
Marty was on a playground in a public park after hours (parks close at
10:00 or 10:30)--not drinking, not doing anything but playing on the
slides with three other people, one 21 and the others 18, 19. He did
two days of community service at the Red Cross office. (He reminded
me that he also was ticketed for stopping too hard at a stop light.
He stopped, but not gracefully, and we went to court and he paid a
fine and went to a driving class. No alcohol nor any other such thing
involved.)
Holly's is slightly worse than these.
Last night at 2:20 Holly (17) called on the house phone. There's one
by our bed. She sounded like she was afraid and embarrassed, and said
that the party had been busted, and she needed us to come and pick her
up. The police said she needed at least one parent to come. And she
was afraid she might have parked the car where it would have been
towed. She couldn't see it from where she was.
So I woke Keith up and told him. Keith had fallen asleep really early
because he had been helping clean a group camping site in Edgewood for
several hours Saturday morning and afternoon. Brett had been
planning to go to the party when I had gone to bed, but Brett had had
a too-long day at work and had come home to discuss that and to play
World of Warcraft. (Brett is Holly's boyfriend, who's staying with
us, for those new to the saga.)
Brett's car was in the driveway and the house was dark, so we went out
quietly. I thought maybe he could be spared the worry, and it's
possible that Holly wouldn't have wanted him there, but just us.
I went back to get a big flannel sheet, because besides "bust" Holly
had also mentioned "wrestling in pudding."
I knew where she was, because it was a house she'd never been to
before, hosting a party for a couple she's known separately a long
time, and together. One was having a birthday; the other had
sufficiently recovered from a broken neck in a car accident (he's
mobile), to share a party. She had been scheduled to go to his
birthday party a couple of months ago when he had the accident.
Brett and I had helped (by phone) figure out exactly where the house
was and how she could best get there from where she was after work.
For those who know Albuquerque, we're near the mountains (Juan Tabo
and Candelaria) and she was down past the university, across from
Roosevelt Park. It's eight miles or ten, maybe.
As we were driving, we discussed what the best tack to take would be.
We shouldn't be too cheery about it. We weren't going to act harsher
than we felt. I was thinking at that time it might be a marijuana
situation.
A mile from the house Marty called. He had been invited to the party,
but had opted to go to a couple of parties his girlfriend had been
invited to instead. They were done there, and he had called to see
if the birthday/recovery party was still on, and the birthday-person
answered her cell from her car, where she was driving drunks home.
She told Marty what she knew. So I was relieved it was alcohol and
pudding, rather than drugs.
Holly had been the second youngest person at the party. The sixteen
year old girl was asked "were you drinking?" and she said "no," so
they said "Go home." Everyone over 21 who could prove it was told
to go home. (Holly's unsure if any of them got citations). Holly had
said yes, about drinking, so they told her to call her parents. And
Holly didn't know the other girl, nor several of the people at the
party.
The birthday hostess (not resident) had wanted to stay with Holly but
the police told her she needed to leave and help get the intoxicated
friends safely home.
Marty (20, her brother) had been willing to go and get Holly, but I
told him it needed to be a parent and we were already on the way. So
he said he and Ashlee-his-girlfriend would go on to our house. I told
him Brett didn't know yet, so maybe not to bother him with it but let
Holly tell him, unless he asked directly. I thought he was asleep.
Just a minute or so later, Brett (25, her boyfriend) called. It was
2:40 or so by then, and he had been just about to go to sleep but
called Holly to see if she was okay and when she was coming back.
The police let her answer the phone. She told him we were on our way
to get her, so I told him what I knew and that Marty was on his way
home.
At that point I thought how cool it was that we were all in such close
communication. The day I was in an accident a couple or three weeks
ago, before I had left the scene, Keith and Holly and Brett were there
with me. Marty was at work, or he probably would've been there too.
We got to the house and she was sitting on the porch, chocolate
pudding in her hair and everywhere, drying. There were four
policemen, and another one in the house. Holly was the last one
there besides the two who lived there. She was wearing a t-shirt and
shorts, and was barefooted. I wrapped the flannel sheet around her.
Keith did the talking, and not much. Everyone was courteous and
somber but not tense. Keith apologized and thanked them, and the one
who was in charge of Holly before we got there said they were just
doing their jobs, and Keith said "Well, I need to do mine too," and
the guy said he was a parent too, and these things happen. So there
was no shaming or defensiveness or anything. She was cited, and I
can't read the details on our copy, but I think it's possession of
alcohol by a minor. Maybe it's consumption. It has a number I can't
see well enough to look it up.
Holly asked if she could go inside and go to the bathroom. The
officer said "You're in the custody of your parents now--it's up to
them." We all looked at each other. It wasn't my house; I didn't
know the residents. Keith said "Go pee."
While she was gone we talked a little. There was a big dark smear on
the bottom concrete step there by the front door. I said "I assume
that's pudding, and not blood." One of the cops said, "Yeah. There's
pudding everywhere in there. There's pudding on me." Another one
said "There's pudding on my flashlight." It would've been funny,
but we were all in straight-face, this isn't funny mode.
We'll be contacted by the juvenile probation department. The
policeman used the term "intake," and I asked what that meant. He
said they'll want to determine whether she needs alcohol abuse
treatment, and whether she's in a safe situation. Okay. I don't
think homeschooling will be an issue, and she's old enough to drop out
or graduate anyway, if she were in high school. She has two part-
time jobs, and that will help (if they don't pull a child labor law
trick out of the hat <g>). She hasn't been in trouble, and that will
help. No damage to people or property.
And the drinking she did was one jello shooter, and tastes of two
other people's drinks. She said she never had a drink of her own.
There weren't any drinking games. There were people there not
drinking at all.
She could have lied, but she didn't.
When she came out of the house she was crying--frustration and
embarrassment kind of crying. Stress.
Things seemed to be a smooth as possible under the circumstances.
When we were leaving, the police could leave, and the two guys who
lived there walked them out too, and said good night and thanks and
good bye, and Holly rode back with Keith in the van where the heater
had been on, and I followed them back in the car. When we got home
she was crying, but I do know she told Keith some of the story on the
way home and also talked to the birthday hostess to tell her she was
okay.
We got home and she went into the shower. I took the pudding clothes
and put them in the washing machine so I could turn it on right after
she turned the shower off. The laundry was her bikini top, the
Punisher t-shirt her friend Jared had taken off and put on her so
she'd be wearing more than just a bikini top and shorts, another t-
shirt someone had offered up for people to wipe jello off of them, and
she said she would bring back clean. Her shorts and underwear, and
the sheet.
She was unsettled and lightly agitated. I offered to sleep with her
in the library and she gratefully took me up on that. I closed down
the house, re-ran the laundry, left notes so Keith and Brett would
know where we were if they woke up, and went and fixed up that bed.
So I curled up behind her and stroked her hair and her arm and told
her I loved her and I was sorry she had cried, and she asked what I
was thinking about it all, and how much trouble she might be in. I
told her there might be a fine, and she'd probably have unsupervised
probation, since nobody was hurt and there wasn't any malice.
I don't know who all might've been charged besides Holly and the
resident hosts. I'm willing to provide follow-ups on this. If I'm
going to be telling how wonderful our lives are, it's only fair to
give some detail on the less than wonderful times.
Ashlee (now 23) told me last night that when she was 15 she spent the
night with a friend, and they got a ride to a party on the other end
of town. She grew up 20 miles north of here in Bernalillo, a little
farm town two miles long. The girls were walking home from the
party, really late, and the police came and took each of them to her
own home. Ashlee's parents grounded her from watching MTV for a year,
she said, because they were sure watching MTV had made her wild.
We're not grounding Holly from anything. We didn't congratulate her
or make light of it, but she was fully remorseful and is more
concerned about how we feel about it, and the inconvenience to us in
the middle of the night, than about her own outcome. She'll be 18 in
November, and juvenile offenses like this are wiped off, in New
Mexico. Or maybe it will be wiped when she's 21, or after the
probationary period; I don't know.
The police seemed to have felt better after they asked Holly whether
any of the girls were pudding-wrestling for money. Holly didn't
really understand the question, and I didn't even hear about it until
later, but it makes more sense now, thinking back to when the youngest
officer said "It was a party activity," and I said "Well I guess it's
good it wasn't just her and one other girl," and he said "No, they
were all doing it."
Keith says guys pay money to watch girls wrestle, so they were
wondering whether it was a sex show or prostitution. Oh, see? I
didn't even think about that.
One more story for now... She said she was the last one up the stairs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am not saying Holly did anything wrong in telling the truth, but
I don't
think there would have been anything wrong with her choosing to lie in
that
situation. I do think the girl who said she hadn't been drinking is in a
better position right now than Holly.-=-
I do see your point. My friend Jeff would be thrilled to know you're
making this argument to me. <g>
We've always disagreed about where the line is and about justifiable
dishonesty.
We've been friends for 22 years and I could recite his arguments, yet
I still don't "understand." I could pass a test on what Jeff thinks
about truth/lies, but it still doesn't seem right to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't
think there would have been anything wrong with her choosing to lie in
that
situation. I do think the girl who said she hadn't been drinking is in a
better position right now than Holly.-=-
I do see your point. My friend Jeff would be thrilled to know you're
making this argument to me. <g>
We've always disagreed about where the line is and about justifiable
dishonesty.
We've been friends for 22 years and I could recite his arguments, yet
I still don't "understand." I could pass a test on what Jeff thinks
about truth/lies, but it still doesn't seem right to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Having your own guiding principles does not always mean they will
supersede laws that are in effect. -=-
That's the point Holly was hoping I'd make here, but you've made it
better, Tammy. Thanks.
Sandra
supersede laws that are in effect. -=-
That's the point Holly was hoping I'd make here, but you've made it
better, Tammy. Thanks.
Sandra
[email protected]
>>>> I do think the girl who said she hadn't been drinking is in abetter position right now than Holly. <<<<
A better position for what? I wouldn't want to go in knee jerk mode
just because a law officer is there asking questions. I've been
arrested once in the early 90s. Forgotten unpaid ticket for a broken
taillight that then went into suspended license status after I moved
when the notices didn't follow me because I don't forward mail.
Forty-five minutes in jail, $100 bail, court, class, fine. It was ok.
I'm more careful about my car upkeep. It's probably still on my
records. Whenever I've put in for work, I just list it if the
application asks for the info. People have hired me, even a university
(executive secretarial position in the art dept).
It could have been a huge ordeal for Holly. Guess that's not the
location for having a loud party again.
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't remember what kind of expression I was wearing (anger?
disappointment?) , but she said she had never seen it before, and
never wants to see it again. -=-
I know that feeling from both sides, with various friends and loved
ones. It's pretty powerful, and because it's non-verbal
communication, I think it's rarely talked about and not given its due.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
disappointment?) , but she said she had never seen it before, and
never wants to see it again. -=-
I know that feeling from both sides, with various friends and loved
ones. It's pretty powerful, and because it's non-verbal
communication, I think it's rarely talked about and not given its due.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/26/2009 1:14 PM, MrsStranahan wrote:
think that's true even if there are occasions where lying appears to be
the "easier" course of action. Unnecessary complications arise from lies.
-pam
> In my experience, the cops are not anyone's friend. They don't have yourI think life is way easier if you have a habit of telling the truth. I
> best interest at heart. It isn't personal relationship that would have been
> damaged by lying.
>
> But I'm totally curious about what other people think about lying in these
> types of situations.
>
think that's true even if there are occasions where lying appears to be
the "easier" course of action. Unnecessary complications arise from lies.
-pam
[email protected]
>>>> Unnecessary complications arise from lies. <<<<Once an investigation starts, if you lie and then later on you could
have helped as a credible testimony, that'd be a yucky consequence.
Particularly bad would be if a lie was based on someone else lying to
you, which might turn out to be even worse if it came out. It would
depend. I don't think the stakes were very high either way in Holly's
situation.
~Katherine
Anne Mills
the BBC talks about game to teach maths. It does not happen very often.I though that is a good idea to add to the list of unschooling fun gamesand learning that occurs with it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8012769.stm
Anne Mills
To: [email protected]
From: pamsoroosh@...
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:37:53 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I'll tell this here, but not on my blog
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8012769.stm
Anne Mills
To: [email protected]
From: pamsoroosh@...
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:37:53 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I'll tell this here, but not on my blog
On 4/26/2009 1:14 PM, MrsStranahan wrote:
> In my experience, the cops are not anyone's friend. They don't have your
> best interest at heart. It isn't personal relationship that would have been
> damaged by lying.
>
> But I'm totally curious about what other people think about lying in these
> types of situations.
>
I think life is way easier if you have a habit of telling the truth. I
think that's true even if there are occasions where lying appears to be
the "easier" course of action. Unnecessary complications arise from lies.
-pam
_________________________________________________________________
Vous voulez savoir ce que vous pouvez faire avec le nouveau Windows Live ? Lancez-vous !
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
>>>> I do think the girl who said she hadn't been drinking is in abetter position right now than Holly. <<<<
-=-A better position for what? -=-
Well her mom didn't need to post a long article about juvenile
probation, for one thing.
And her parents might not even know about it. (That's better from
one angle, but not from all angles.)
She won't need to go to court or pay a fine or be on probation. (I'm
not positive Holly will either, but Holly's more likely.)
Maybe that will give the other girl more confidence than scare, and
she might end up being at a party where the guys aren't as (word;
running through the options) courteous. Safe. Or maybe it will have
put enough caution into her, though, that she will be more careful.
It wasn't entirely "careful" that saved other parties in town that
night, though. Maybe their neighbors weren't home, or sleep with the
TV on, or are too afraid themselves to call police on the neighbors.
From my point of view, I've been telling kids for years that after
certain hours (probably 1:00 a.m. on a Saturday in a residential area)
the noise needs to stay in the house. If the neighbors can hear you,
that's too loud.
So aside from legalities, the kids at this party violated courtesy,
and disturbed other people.
As to learning lessons that last for life, Holly might be in a better
position.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Maisha, I forwarded your response to Holly. She checks e-mail every
few days. I told her she could read all this if she ever wants to.
I'm thinking of printing it all out and putting it in her souvenir box
so she can read it when she's older even if the archives of this list
are long gone.
Here's Holly's account of her weekend. Told the way she tells it, the
party was a very small part of a very busy couple of days.
La Cueva is a high school, Stems is the flower shop near us, Trader
Joe's is a grocery store, "Mordor" is a secret place (they've offered
to tell me where, but I declined) where they go to skateboard and have
sneaky adventures, and sometimes hide from a security guard. Kirtland
is the air force base. Marty (her brother) drove her, Julie (an
unschooler they've known since birth; Carol Rice's youngest) and Bo
(who did the art for my unschooling page (trees and random-machine),
in his jeep. Flying Star is a bakery/magazine-stand/sandwich-shop-
turning-restaurant (chain).
March 24th and 25th
It's Sunday afternoon and it's been a very, very long weekend already.
Friday
Morning- 9:20 am
waking up, long shower, general getting ready to go.
Stems- 11:00 am
There's a woman named Diane who's there to help us out through
Mother's Day, she's from Long Island and pretty chill. She and Debbie
did arrangements and corsages and boots, I wired and taped spray roses
and answered the phone and such.
Home- 3:20 pm
Hung out, ate, made plans.
Mike's house- 5:40 pm
Chilled with Mike and Zach, they played guitar (Mike fixed his), Zach
said he had to go this play at La Cueva, Mike said he didn't want to,
I said I wanted to go to Trader Joe's.
Out- 6:30 pm
Went to Trader Joes, re-met this guy Chris in the parking lot, went to
La Cueva, watched the play (The Odd Couple)... Whatnot.
IHOP- 10:00 pm
Introduced Kyle to everybody. Ordered crepes and french fries, had a
really, really good time. Drove home, blah, blah, blah. Marty drove me
and Julie and Bo across town.
Mordor- 12:20 am
Got to see and ride Bo's BOMB new skateboard! Walked around, skated,
climbed. Went home around like 2:00 am I guess, went to bed.
Saturday
Morning- 7:30 am
Giggity got up, my mom made me breakfast and a lunch to-go, and I was
off!
Kirtland Flower Shop- 9:00 am
I opened and got the computer turned on and everything, no problems,
Katie came and actually ended up staying for a long time which I was
happy about, when I was there by myself I put 50 of those plastic
water things on 50 yellow roses and sold some balloons and a rose
bundle. Elizabeth showed up and I left. Stopped by Stems to mark my
hours down.
Home- 2:00 pm (ish?)
Suppose I did some hanging out and MySpace. Thought about taking a
nap, ended up just listening to Amy Steinberg and hopping in the
shower. I called work (Zumiez) Angie wants me to come in, and because
I expressed my negative opinion on being called in, Mason offered to
cover my closing shift, so I would leave when he would have left.
(7:30) Quickly ate some macaroni as prep.
MALL
Zumiez- 5:05 pm
I did what I do, son! For the majority of being there we listened to
Jake's iPod; Jake's got some good stuff on that! Great night though,
Angie said it's cool if Mason closed. When it was getting close to
7:30 Angie told me she didn't want me to go because I was keeping her
spirits up of sorts, so I agreed to dance for the rest of the 10
minutes of my shift. I think it worked to make her happy. I hung out
an extra couple minutes, I was in a really weird, loud, and repetitive
mood. You know how it goes.
Hot Topic- 7:50+ pm
Went over to Hot Topic and met Fabian (I'm actually gonna have to
double check on his name), didn't end up getting any Jamaican colored
anything, but it's all good. I ran to the escalator and quickly
chatted with these kids who's friend got in trouble earlier and then
ran to Shoe Fitters, said 'yo wassup', ran back to Zumiez, said yo,
yo, yo and goodbye again, and left.
Out and About- 8:15 pm
Headed down to Gold and 8th, called my mom and got stuck in traffic.
When I got there, though, Emily was really lost, so I waited in my car
and listened to my iPod.
Flying Star- 9:15 pm
Emily and I ordered ourselves some Mac and Cheese with some Raspberry
Chocolate cake goodness. That was such a good hour of the day. Very
enjoyable.
Back in the Car- 10:10 pm
Back in traffic, going to a party, trying to get directions. Brett and
my mom were very helpful.
Timmy's house- 10:35 pm
================
Steering away from the step-by-step:
It was an incredible and fun party. DJ, glow sticks and all. Right
around 1:45 or so the police showed up. A lot of people had already
left and a lot of people ditched out and a lot of people were sent
home and then some people got in trouble. Which I guess equals out to
a lot of people, right? Well my parents came to get me and the car.
They showed up at like 2:45.
Alright, cool.
I started writing this twelve hours ago.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
few days. I told her she could read all this if she ever wants to.
I'm thinking of printing it all out and putting it in her souvenir box
so she can read it when she's older even if the archives of this list
are long gone.
Here's Holly's account of her weekend. Told the way she tells it, the
party was a very small part of a very busy couple of days.
La Cueva is a high school, Stems is the flower shop near us, Trader
Joe's is a grocery store, "Mordor" is a secret place (they've offered
to tell me where, but I declined) where they go to skateboard and have
sneaky adventures, and sometimes hide from a security guard. Kirtland
is the air force base. Marty (her brother) drove her, Julie (an
unschooler they've known since birth; Carol Rice's youngest) and Bo
(who did the art for my unschooling page (trees and random-machine),
in his jeep. Flying Star is a bakery/magazine-stand/sandwich-shop-
turning-restaurant (chain).
March 24th and 25th
It's Sunday afternoon and it's been a very, very long weekend already.
Friday
Morning- 9:20 am
waking up, long shower, general getting ready to go.
Stems- 11:00 am
There's a woman named Diane who's there to help us out through
Mother's Day, she's from Long Island and pretty chill. She and Debbie
did arrangements and corsages and boots, I wired and taped spray roses
and answered the phone and such.
Home- 3:20 pm
Hung out, ate, made plans.
Mike's house- 5:40 pm
Chilled with Mike and Zach, they played guitar (Mike fixed his), Zach
said he had to go this play at La Cueva, Mike said he didn't want to,
I said I wanted to go to Trader Joe's.
Out- 6:30 pm
Went to Trader Joes, re-met this guy Chris in the parking lot, went to
La Cueva, watched the play (The Odd Couple)... Whatnot.
IHOP- 10:00 pm
Introduced Kyle to everybody. Ordered crepes and french fries, had a
really, really good time. Drove home, blah, blah, blah. Marty drove me
and Julie and Bo across town.
Mordor- 12:20 am
Got to see and ride Bo's BOMB new skateboard! Walked around, skated,
climbed. Went home around like 2:00 am I guess, went to bed.
Saturday
Morning- 7:30 am
Giggity got up, my mom made me breakfast and a lunch to-go, and I was
off!
Kirtland Flower Shop- 9:00 am
I opened and got the computer turned on and everything, no problems,
Katie came and actually ended up staying for a long time which I was
happy about, when I was there by myself I put 50 of those plastic
water things on 50 yellow roses and sold some balloons and a rose
bundle. Elizabeth showed up and I left. Stopped by Stems to mark my
hours down.
Home- 2:00 pm (ish?)
Suppose I did some hanging out and MySpace. Thought about taking a
nap, ended up just listening to Amy Steinberg and hopping in the
shower. I called work (Zumiez) Angie wants me to come in, and because
I expressed my negative opinion on being called in, Mason offered to
cover my closing shift, so I would leave when he would have left.
(7:30) Quickly ate some macaroni as prep.
MALL
Zumiez- 5:05 pm
I did what I do, son! For the majority of being there we listened to
Jake's iPod; Jake's got some good stuff on that! Great night though,
Angie said it's cool if Mason closed. When it was getting close to
7:30 Angie told me she didn't want me to go because I was keeping her
spirits up of sorts, so I agreed to dance for the rest of the 10
minutes of my shift. I think it worked to make her happy. I hung out
an extra couple minutes, I was in a really weird, loud, and repetitive
mood. You know how it goes.
Hot Topic- 7:50+ pm
Went over to Hot Topic and met Fabian (I'm actually gonna have to
double check on his name), didn't end up getting any Jamaican colored
anything, but it's all good. I ran to the escalator and quickly
chatted with these kids who's friend got in trouble earlier and then
ran to Shoe Fitters, said 'yo wassup', ran back to Zumiez, said yo,
yo, yo and goodbye again, and left.
Out and About- 8:15 pm
Headed down to Gold and 8th, called my mom and got stuck in traffic.
When I got there, though, Emily was really lost, so I waited in my car
and listened to my iPod.
Flying Star- 9:15 pm
Emily and I ordered ourselves some Mac and Cheese with some Raspberry
Chocolate cake goodness. That was such a good hour of the day. Very
enjoyable.
Back in the Car- 10:10 pm
Back in traffic, going to a party, trying to get directions. Brett and
my mom were very helpful.
Timmy's house- 10:35 pm
================
Steering away from the step-by-step:
It was an incredible and fun party. DJ, glow sticks and all. Right
around 1:45 or so the police showed up. A lot of people had already
left and a lot of people ditched out and a lot of people were sent
home and then some people got in trouble. Which I guess equals out to
a lot of people, right? Well my parents came to get me and the car.
They showed up at like 2:45.
Alright, cool.
I started writing this twelve hours ago.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***I think life is way easier if you have a habit of telling the truth. I
think that's true even if there are occasions where lying appears to be
the "easier" course of action. Unnecessary complications arise from lies.***
I think so too. I think lying doesn't work. Even if a person manages to avoid trouble by lying other people know. Most people are too polite to call someone a liar, but they know, and it changes relationships. Dealing with whatever trouble comes is less costly than losing the respect of people you care about and count on.
If Holly is feeling bad for a few days about this at least she doesn't have the burden of being dishonest on top of everything else.
I'm sorry for Holly and I'm glad she has kind parents. I hope she's feeling better today. My brother came home drunk one night. Mom was horrible to him. She told him he was a disgrace to humanity. I'm glad things are better for Holly.
Deb Lewis - pudding wrestling? ...always learning.<g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think that's true even if there are occasions where lying appears to be
the "easier" course of action. Unnecessary complications arise from lies.***
I think so too. I think lying doesn't work. Even if a person manages to avoid trouble by lying other people know. Most people are too polite to call someone a liar, but they know, and it changes relationships. Dealing with whatever trouble comes is less costly than losing the respect of people you care about and count on.
If Holly is feeling bad for a few days about this at least she doesn't have the burden of being dishonest on top of everything else.
I'm sorry for Holly and I'm glad she has kind parents. I hope she's feeling better today. My brother came home drunk one night. Mom was horrible to him. She told him he was a disgrace to humanity. I'm glad things are better for Holly.
Deb Lewis - pudding wrestling? ...always learning.<g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I'm reposting for two reasons. Before, it went in as a response so
would be filed under Holly's adventure of the weekend.
And I can't get the video to go; just the lufthansa advertisement.
But I wanted to comment on the title and what little it did say at the
site, which was "A teacher from a Nottingham school has being using
darts to help pupils with their sums."
It's interesting to see when and why (and how often) people are
referred to as "students" or "pupils." I suppose it's no more unusual
than the terms "workers" or "employees" or "residents" or "citizens,
as to identifying a group of people, but after years of reading and
writing about unschooling, I notice it more, because my own kids have
learned "their sums" and "maths" with games to such an extent that the
idea that keeping darts scores would help with something actually
useful is amusing to me. Not the idea that it's true, but that it
would be newsworthy, and that it might not be pointed out that ANYone
who's kept darts scores was learning math. Or bowling, or golf...
I'm all for that teacher doing that, though!
The original note:
===========================
the BBC talks about game to teach maths. It does not happen very
often.I though that is a good idea to add to the list of unschooling
fun gamesand learning that occurs with it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8012769.stm
Anne Mills
would be filed under Holly's adventure of the weekend.
And I can't get the video to go; just the lufthansa advertisement.
But I wanted to comment on the title and what little it did say at the
site, which was "A teacher from a Nottingham school has being using
darts to help pupils with their sums."
It's interesting to see when and why (and how often) people are
referred to as "students" or "pupils." I suppose it's no more unusual
than the terms "workers" or "employees" or "residents" or "citizens,
as to identifying a group of people, but after years of reading and
writing about unschooling, I notice it more, because my own kids have
learned "their sums" and "maths" with games to such an extent that the
idea that keeping darts scores would help with something actually
useful is amusing to me. Not the idea that it's true, but that it
would be newsworthy, and that it might not be pointed out that ANYone
who's kept darts scores was learning math. Or bowling, or golf...
I'm all for that teacher doing that, though!
The original note:
===========================
the BBC talks about game to teach maths. It does not happen very
often.I though that is a good idea to add to the list of unschooling
fun gamesand learning that occurs with it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8012769.stm
Anne Mills
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
link again and, after another ad, the video played.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And I can't get the video to go; just the lufthansa advertisement.Same thing happened to me. I left that window open, clicked on the
link again and, after another ad, the video played.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>>> I think so too. I think lying doesn't work. Even if a person managesto avoid trouble by lying other people know. Most people are too polite
to call someone a liar, but they know, and it changes relationships.
Dealing with whatever trouble comes is less costly than losing the
respect of people you care about and count on. >>>
We have a neighbor girl that lies a lot. Chamille has really done
everything in her power to discourage that friendship because the girl
lies about everything. Chamille really disliked the uncertainty about
wether or not she was being told the truth or not. To believe a liar,
makes you feel stupid, but to disbelieve makes you feel bad about not
trusting someone, either way you don't know where you stand.
She has other friends that lie to their parents, and that, she's way
more understanding about, even though she thinks it stinks to have to do
that. I'm really glad that Chamille doesn't ever feel she needs to lie.
The one time she did, she wasn't even lying for herself, it was for the
protection of a friend that had lied to a parent. So, just association
with lying can get one in trouble!