Activities Question
Katrina Gutleben
My sister, who is very against Unschooling, and I were talking the other day about my daughter who is very social. She feels that she would love the preschool program that her daughters are in because she is so social. Personally it's not an environment I want my kids in and I said as much while trying to be respectful to her views on education. The the next day we were at the mall and my dd (she's 3 by the way) climbed up on a little raised 'stage' they have there for performances and did a very adorable an *loud* redition of her ABC's followed by Twinkle Twinkle Little Star complete with hand motions and a deep deep bow to finish it off. She even attracted a small crowd. :)
So my sister says as we are walking off "We need to get her in Sunshine Generation (a kids dancing and singing group)." I guess it hit me deeper than I initially realized because I come home and I'm thinking does she need to be in some kind of class like that?? The thing is she would love it. She would also love preschool though. And I can't help but think that the things I don't like about preschool would be about the same things that I would hate about her being in a dancing class. Part of the beauty of her right now is that she's just like this. She's *not* in a class, she doesn't ask permission to sing, she doesn't think to be shy or raise her hand or stand in a line or.... all that.
I guess the way I see it is that she is developing quite nicely on her own (thank you very much) and no she may not be learning the 'proper' ways of doing it but she's having a ball. Then you hear about think 'window' of time for people who go on to be great and how their paren't always started then at 2,3, or 4. (Ok the Olymipc thing is getting me I guess). :) It's just too easy to second guess all of this.
What is you guys' take on it? Are they better off figuring it out on their own? She's sort of at an age where she would happily do anything but if I try to interfere by 'helping' she becomes immidiatly helpless and 'forgets' how to do it. Like drawing. If I try to draw too at the same time as her (different paper and everything) then she won't draw anymore and only wants me to draw for her. I'd love to know if anyone else has struggled with this and what happened there.
KatieGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So my sister says as we are walking off "We need to get her in Sunshine Generation (a kids dancing and singing group)." I guess it hit me deeper than I initially realized because I come home and I'm thinking does she need to be in some kind of class like that?? The thing is she would love it. She would also love preschool though. And I can't help but think that the things I don't like about preschool would be about the same things that I would hate about her being in a dancing class. Part of the beauty of her right now is that she's just like this. She's *not* in a class, she doesn't ask permission to sing, she doesn't think to be shy or raise her hand or stand in a line or.... all that.
I guess the way I see it is that she is developing quite nicely on her own (thank you very much) and no she may not be learning the 'proper' ways of doing it but she's having a ball. Then you hear about think 'window' of time for people who go on to be great and how their paren't always started then at 2,3, or 4. (Ok the Olymipc thing is getting me I guess). :) It's just too easy to second guess all of this.
What is you guys' take on it? Are they better off figuring it out on their own? She's sort of at an age where she would happily do anything but if I try to interfere by 'helping' she becomes immidiatly helpless and 'forgets' how to do it. Like drawing. If I try to draw too at the same time as her (different paper and everything) then she won't draw anymore and only wants me to draw for her. I'd love to know if anyone else has struggled with this and what happened there.
KatieGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pat Cald...
I am going to give you the perspective of someone whose children were in school up to 4th and 6th grade so I don't have the same frame of reference as others on this list.
Life is full of negative messages that our children pick up all the time. Our job is to coach them along the way and help them develop into their own person. There are positive as well as negative things about preschool and dance class just as there are positive and negative things about TV. If you think she would love the social interaction and other positive things than by keeping her out, you are saying she is not capable of handling the negative things. At some point, she will probably ask to take a dance class so it is really just a matter of when. If you think she is too young now and will be too greatly influenced by her classmates, wait but this could also be the time to help her deal with some of these things. You would know best.
I know my children have a few scars from ps but mostly because I bought into the system and only in the areas I bought into. They have also built up some calluses that would have been hard to build without the stuff they had to deal with. I think these calluses are very beneficial in dealing with other kids and the world as it is.
Pat
Life is full of negative messages that our children pick up all the time. Our job is to coach them along the way and help them develop into their own person. There are positive as well as negative things about preschool and dance class just as there are positive and negative things about TV. If you think she would love the social interaction and other positive things than by keeping her out, you are saying she is not capable of handling the negative things. At some point, she will probably ask to take a dance class so it is really just a matter of when. If you think she is too young now and will be too greatly influenced by her classmates, wait but this could also be the time to help her deal with some of these things. You would know best.
I know my children have a few scars from ps but mostly because I bought into the system and only in the areas I bought into. They have also built up some calluses that would have been hard to build without the stuff they had to deal with. I think these calluses are very beneficial in dealing with other kids and the world as it is.
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Katrina Gutleben
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 2:50 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Activities Question
My sister, who is very against Unschooling, and I were talking the other day about my daughter who is very social. She feels that she would love the preschool program that her daughters are in because she is so social. Personally it's not an environment I want my kids in and I said as much while trying to be respectful to her views on education. The the next day we were at the mall and my dd (she's 3 by the way) climbed up on a little raised 'stage' they have there for performances and did a very adorable an *loud* redition of her ABC's followed by Twinkle Twinkle Little Star complete with hand motions and a deep deep bow to finish it off. She even attracted a small crowd. :)
So my sister says as we are walking off "We need to get her in Sunshine Generation (a kids dancing and singing group)." I guess it hit me deeper than I initially realized because I come home and I'm thinking does she need to be in some kind of class like that?? The thing is she would love it. She would also love preschool though. And I can't help but think that the things I don't like about preschool would be about the same things that I would hate about her being in a dancing class. Part of the beauty of her right now is that she's just like this. She's *not* in a class, she doesn't ask permission to sing, she doesn't think to be shy or raise her hand or stand in a line or.... all that.
I guess the way I see it is that she is developing quite nicely on her own (thank you very much) and no she may not be learning the 'proper' ways of doing it but she's having a ball. Then you hear about think 'window' of time for people who go on to be great and how their paren't always started then at 2,3, or 4. (Ok the Olymipc thing is getting me I guess). :) It's just too easy to second guess all of this.
What is you guys' take on it? Are they better off figuring it out on their own? She's sort of at an age where she would happily do anything but if I try to interfere by 'helping' she becomes immidiatly helpless and 'forgets' how to do it. Like drawing. If I try to draw too at the same time as her (different paper and everything) then she won't draw anymore and only wants me to draw for her. I'd love to know if anyone else has struggled with this and what happened there.
KatieGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/8/02 1:58:33 AM, Katguts@... writes:
<< Then you hear about think 'window' of time for people who go on to be
great and how their paren't always started then at 2,3, or 4. (Ok the
Olymipc thing is getting me I guess). :) >>
Well, it's not true for performing, that's for sure. It takes a lot to stop
someone who really wants to perform. You could do it, but it doesn't sound
like YOU could do it.
OTOH, though your sister sounds irritating, don't automatically dismiss
something your daughter might like just because she suggests it. Go with your
instincts on how it would work for your family.
Paula
<< Then you hear about think 'window' of time for people who go on to be
great and how their paren't always started then at 2,3, or 4. (Ok the
Olymipc thing is getting me I guess). :) >>
Well, it's not true for performing, that's for sure. It takes a lot to stop
someone who really wants to perform. You could do it, but it doesn't sound
like YOU could do it.
OTOH, though your sister sounds irritating, don't automatically dismiss
something your daughter might like just because she suggests it. Go with your
instincts on how it would work for your family.
Paula
[email protected]
I think it would really depend on the class. If the dance teacher is
rigid and wants all the kids, even the little ones to do as their told, I
think that wouldn't be any fun and would even spoil her love of
performing. Performing for your little kid is all about imagination
and an instructor will want to introduce all the other stuff. Will your
daughter really like waiting for her turn to sing? Dancing just the way
someone else says? If you really wonder, go and visit a few of the
classes and see how engaged the other little kids are and if they're
really happy. Putting someone else's structure to a three year old
imagination might spoil everything.
Three is so little. When Dylan was four some of his friends were
playing soccer. He decided to try. He didn't like jumping in the middle
of other kids to try and kick the ball, but he did like rolling in the
grass, and crawling around inside the ball bag. He made friends with a
little girl who liked the same things ( and looking for airplanes) and
the next year soccer season came her mom and I just sewed big bags and
took them to the park a couple times a week. They had just as much fun
and it was free. He did try soccer again, and might another time too,
but sometimes the social part of any organized kid thing can be had in
other ways that are even more fun for the kid. So, maybe some
interesting dress up stuff and lots of little songs to sing, would be
more fun and full of her own imaginings and just right at three.
Deb L
rigid and wants all the kids, even the little ones to do as their told, I
think that wouldn't be any fun and would even spoil her love of
performing. Performing for your little kid is all about imagination
and an instructor will want to introduce all the other stuff. Will your
daughter really like waiting for her turn to sing? Dancing just the way
someone else says? If you really wonder, go and visit a few of the
classes and see how engaged the other little kids are and if they're
really happy. Putting someone else's structure to a three year old
imagination might spoil everything.
Three is so little. When Dylan was four some of his friends were
playing soccer. He decided to try. He didn't like jumping in the middle
of other kids to try and kick the ball, but he did like rolling in the
grass, and crawling around inside the ball bag. He made friends with a
little girl who liked the same things ( and looking for airplanes) and
the next year soccer season came her mom and I just sewed big bags and
took them to the park a couple times a week. They had just as much fun
and it was free. He did try soccer again, and might another time too,
but sometimes the social part of any organized kid thing can be had in
other ways that are even more fun for the kid. So, maybe some
interesting dress up stuff and lots of little songs to sing, would be
more fun and full of her own imaginings and just right at three.
Deb L
[email protected]
Hi,
I am new to this list, and wanted to add my 2 cents to this question. My
son, Shawn (aged 27), who learned at home except for kindergarten and then
college, is a performer. He was a skateboarder from ages 8-14. When an
injury sidelined him he taught himself to juggle, and took that to a
performing stage when he discovered gymnastics. He was way too old to be
starting(about 19), but loved it, and is still teaching it as one of his
part-time jobs while he is in school.
That took him into diving (springboard, and tower), which he is doing at
college in PA right now. He will go to Nationals soon, and we'll see how he
does. In the meantime he has done a little stuntwork in TV stuff, and had a
small part in an African movie, plus modeled. He went to jr. college here in
CA, and now is majoring in acting while on the dive team in PA.
He got to PA because he was in a dive show at 6 Flags in Houston, and met a
dive coach that knew a coach etc.
Did he ever take classes? NO-- not until he was old enough to drive himself,
and pay for them thro exchange work. Maybe I was a lazy mom or maybe they
don't need to start "classes" but can work at learning at their own pace.
For instance - he learned the juggling with books and video, and then
regularly went to Balboa Park to join a group that did street performing to
practice and learn with them.
I think he retained his natural enthusiam by not "having" to do anything. He
could make the choices by being older and being in control.
Connie Colten
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am new to this list, and wanted to add my 2 cents to this question. My
son, Shawn (aged 27), who learned at home except for kindergarten and then
college, is a performer. He was a skateboarder from ages 8-14. When an
injury sidelined him he taught himself to juggle, and took that to a
performing stage when he discovered gymnastics. He was way too old to be
starting(about 19), but loved it, and is still teaching it as one of his
part-time jobs while he is in school.
That took him into diving (springboard, and tower), which he is doing at
college in PA right now. He will go to Nationals soon, and we'll see how he
does. In the meantime he has done a little stuntwork in TV stuff, and had a
small part in an African movie, plus modeled. He went to jr. college here in
CA, and now is majoring in acting while on the dive team in PA.
He got to PA because he was in a dive show at 6 Flags in Houston, and met a
dive coach that knew a coach etc.
Did he ever take classes? NO-- not until he was old enough to drive himself,
and pay for them thro exchange work. Maybe I was a lazy mom or maybe they
don't need to start "classes" but can work at learning at their own pace.
For instance - he learned the juggling with books and video, and then
regularly went to Balboa Park to join a group that did street performing to
practice and learn with them.
I think he retained his natural enthusiam by not "having" to do anything. He
could make the choices by being older and being in control.
Connie Colten
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/8/02 9:50:18 AM, conniecolten@... writes:
<< I think he retained his natural enthusiam by not "having" to do anything.
He
could make the choices by being older and being in control. >>
There's a homeschooled family of five kids here who are professional
performers. Until the oldest was about 14 and the youngest five or six,
they'd never done anything but sing songs together. But one song needed a
trick knife for a stabbing (they were acting out the ballad of The Twa
Sisters), and they rigged up a SCARY looking, metal, retractable blade (with
rubber bands inside a tube--I held it before and after, and to have held it
and THEN see them stab their skinny sister with it was truly scary.
The oldest is 24 now. They have a magic show, VERY original juggling, are
adding aeriel kind of stuff, there's comedy, music, it is SO COOL. They're
called The Clan Tynker ("the Tynkers") and you'll all probably see them on TV
someday. They did meet a guy, after they were getting this all together, who
taught them some theatricals. And the oldest boy worked in a magic shop for
a while. But most of the tricks and ALL the equipment they've made
themselves. Even the bars they use for the flips, the whole rig with its guy
ropes and all was home made.
Sandra
<< I think he retained his natural enthusiam by not "having" to do anything.
He
could make the choices by being older and being in control. >>
There's a homeschooled family of five kids here who are professional
performers. Until the oldest was about 14 and the youngest five or six,
they'd never done anything but sing songs together. But one song needed a
trick knife for a stabbing (they were acting out the ballad of The Twa
Sisters), and they rigged up a SCARY looking, metal, retractable blade (with
rubber bands inside a tube--I held it before and after, and to have held it
and THEN see them stab their skinny sister with it was truly scary.
The oldest is 24 now. They have a magic show, VERY original juggling, are
adding aeriel kind of stuff, there's comedy, music, it is SO COOL. They're
called The Clan Tynker ("the Tynkers") and you'll all probably see them on TV
someday. They did meet a guy, after they were getting this all together, who
taught them some theatricals. And the oldest boy worked in a magic shop for
a while. But most of the tricks and ALL the equipment they've made
themselves. Even the bars they use for the flips, the whole rig with its guy
ropes and all was home made.
Sandra
Janet
>>I think it would really depend on the class. If the dance teacher isrigid and wants all the kids, even the little ones to do as their told, I
think that wouldn't be any fun and would even spoil her love of
performing. <<
This is so very true! My ds, age 3 1/2, is very introverted, but he likes
to get out there and do stuff. There is a place here that offers a
homeschool gymnastics class: ~36 kids divided into 4 groups by age.
Before I signed the kids up, I asked ds if he wanted to go. He said yes, he
was very excited. The first class, he ran right in with his sister. They
have a circle time warm up, all the kids together for about 15 minutes, then
they split up. He was a bit overwhelmed by all of the kids and just kind of
watched. After the groups split, he had a blast. Problem was, that there
wasn't enough order and the other kids were pushing past my ds to get a turn
on the equipment (balance beams to walk on, mats to roll on, things to climb
up and over, slide down, hang from, etc). My ds isn't the kind to say
anything, though I could tell he was getting upset. After the class, we
talked about it, and he was OK. Next class, same thing, but he did stick up
for himself more and take his turns. Then, apparently the teacher realized
she needed more control, and now she has the kids line up in a certain
order, they can't have a turn until it's their turn, they must sit still and
wait......too far the other way, esp. for 3 & 4 yr olds. Now ds doesn't
want to go. He does want to go play on the equipment, but he doesn't want
all of the structure. I have been talking with him, and the past couple of
classes he participated about half the time, then came out and joined me.
Now, the teacher is after me to just "hand him over" at the beginning of the
class, let him cry for his "30 seconds" (her terms) and he'll be fine. On
the contrary, ds does not take well to others "controlling" him without
regard to his feelings (he has enough stuff in his life he can't control
already that he has to deal with) and she's concerned that "the other kids
have been told that their moms can't stay with them, so they wonder why T's
can" (apparently the other moms agreed to this). So, here we are, with 3
classes left. I have been talking with T and he's pretty sure he doesn't
want to go anymore. That's fine with me (though he'll be dressed
appropriately in case he changes his mind, which he's prone to do :)
On the other hand, dd, age 7, could stay and play all day. She has trouble
following directions (always has) but doesn't seem to mind being corrected
when she gets out of hand (carried away, too much enthusiasm, overactive).
Our experience with classes and the younger set.
Janet, mom to Caroline, 7, and Thomas, 3 1/2
Sponsor me in the Suzuki Rock & Roll Marathon as I raise money for the
Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. I'll be running in honor of my 3 yr old son,
Thomas, who was diagnosed with leukemia in Oct. 2000. E-mail me
jefhdvm@... for details!
Sharon Rudd
If I had a daughter I would want to arrange a match.
Sharon of the Swamp
....................................
--- conniecolten@... wrote:
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Sharon of the Swamp
....................................
--- conniecolten@... wrote:
> Hi,__________________________________________________
>
> I am new to this list, and wanted to add my 2 cents
> to this question. My
> son, Shawn (aged 27), who learned at home except for
> kindergarten and then
> college, is a performer. He was a skateboarder from
> ages 8-14. When an
> injury sidelined him he taught himself to juggle,
> and took that to a
> performing stage when he discovered gymnastics. He
> was way too old to be
> starting(about 19), but loved it, and is still
> teaching it as one of his
> part-time jobs while he is in school.
>
> That took him into diving (springboard, and tower),
> which he is doing at
> college in PA right now. He will go to Nationals
> soon, and we'll see how he
> does. In the meantime he has done a little
> stuntwork in TV stuff, and had a
> small part in an African movie, plus modeled. He
> went to jr. college here in
> CA, and now is majoring in acting while on the dive
> team in PA.
>
> He got to PA because he was in a dive show at 6
> Flags in Houston, and met a
> dive coach that knew a coach etc.
>
> Did he ever take classes? NO-- not until he was old
> enough to drive himself,
> and pay for them thro exchange work. Maybe I was a
> lazy mom or maybe they
> don't need to start "classes" but can work at
> learning at their own pace.
>
> For instance - he learned the juggling with books
> and video, and then
> regularly went to Balboa Park to join a group that
> did street performing to
> practice and learn with them.
>
> I think he retained his natural enthusiam by not
> "having" to do anything. He
> could make the choices by being older and being in
> control.
>
> Connie Colten
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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Tia Leschke
>I think that if she would love a class situation because she's so social,
>
>I guess the way I see it is that she is developing quite nicely on her own
>(thank you very much) and no she may not be learning the 'proper' ways of
>doing it but she's having a ball. Then you hear about think 'window' of
>time for people who go on to be great and how their paren't always started
>then at 2,3, or 4. (Ok the Olymipc thing is getting me I
>guess). :) It's just too easy to second guess all of this.
then eventually you're going to have to let her take some classes. If you
don't, she'll probably agitate to go to school, like my granddaughter
did. That said, there's no reason to put her into one now. There's plenty
of time, once she actually expresses a desire for classes.
And about that window of opportunity thing... In the first place, it only
applies in the case of someone wanting to go to the Olympics or perform
professionally, and not necessarily even then. The conductor of one of the
orchestras I play in didn't start playing the violin until he was 10. He
went on to be concertmaster of some pretty high class symphony orchestras,
as well as founding first violinist of the Purcell Quartet, before moving
to conducting after a shoulder injury. An unschooled young man I know
started piano at about age 9 and added violin a couple of years
later. He's now, at 18, welcome in the best amateur orchestras in town,
but he isn't home often enough. He's busy touring with his band. He plays
fiddle, keyboard, and accordian.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Dan Vilter
on 2/7/02 11:50 PM, Katrina Gutleben at Katguts@... wrote:
I'm sorry.
Rational Thought...
[Climbing onto my soap box]
This is a hot button for me.
I work at a performing arts center. A place where dance schools have
performances to show case their student's work. There are currently about 8
schools that use our facility and I can't think of a one that has the
child's interest as it's primary focus. Some are better than others. In one
form or another all of them use shame, humiliation, and, massive amounts of
coercion to put their shows together to sell to the student's friends and
families. I see hours and hours of kids waiting to appear on stage, sitting
on the floor in the hallway being hassled for taking or playing or even
drawing while passing the time. "Homework" is often the only acceptable
activity. On stage they are often herded to place and screamed at for the
slightest misstep. I have seen 4 year olds humiliated for asking to go to
the restroom. And I have seen kids so scared they have peed their pants, on
stage, and then berated in front of everyone present for doing so.
These concerts are a major money making endeavor for many of the schools.
After paying for the classes, parents (and friends) must pay as much as $50
a ticket, inflated prices for costumes and props that the schools provide.
Then the fees for the party, the class picture, the performance picture,
etc, etc, etc. From my view it is a racket.
One of my best friends is a producer, director, and owns his own production
and costume company. He knows dozens of choreographers and hundreds of
dancers. It took him months of searching to find an appropriate school for
his 6 year old to attend. One that was [relatively] non coercive, where
performance was optional, where parents could be in the room during classes
and where the instructor cared about each student including the slow
graceless ones. I know that there must be many good dance schools out there.
But I was dumbfounded that a person with that much inside knowledge, who was
willing to drive 20 miles in any direction, encompassing millions of people
in Southern California had such a difficult time finding one.
If your daughter is singing and dancing on her own, why do you think she
needs a class? If you are worried about her learning the 'proper' way of
dancing isn't there plenty of time to learn when *she* thinks it is
important? Have you ever read the biographies of great dancers? Did you see
how much time, how much of their lives, they had to give up to become great?
Whenever I see a great performance by a young person I get a pang of guilt
knowing that they have traded (usually through coercion and guilt) some
essential part of their childhood for that *great* performance that I am
enjoying.
I love Dance. I know of no better kinetic expression of what it is to be
human than Dance. The moments of human Truth I have experienced while
watching a Ballet or an introspective modern dance work cannot be perceived
any other way. But lets not mix the difference of participating in the art
form as an audience member and as a performer. If you have ever been
backstage during a performance and seen the evolved preparation, the
exertion and pain required to give those seemingly effortless moves life,
the agony in the faces as theses artists come into the wings and the despair
of a person who's career has been ended by a seemingly minor injury, You
might wonder why anyone does it. I do.
I don't want to be a damper on something I love so much. But so much of path
to those magical, Truthful moments in the performance of Dance goes against
the unschooling lifestyle that my family enjoys.
In contrast, one of the best performances I have *ever* been a part of in
the 30 years I have been involved in entertainment, is the Talent Show at
the Homeschool Association of California conference this past August. Pam
got Jocelyn and I to supply the lighting and sound for the event and the
three of us acted as stage managers facilitating the flow of the evening.
Anyone at the conference who *wanted to* signed up for their minutes of fame
and presented whatever they cared to. This included dancing and singing and
jugging, skateboarding, and free form improvisational poetry. There was a
history talk given from the heart of a history lover. Sandra played a
recorder duet with herself on tape. There were three young people that
served as Masters of Ceremony. I thoroughly enjoyed it, even from the
wings. What made it so worthwhile for me was that the performances came from
within each of the performers. *Roxana don't read this next part* You could
have floated me down the American river I was so buoyant with pride as Pam's
kids, who I consider good personal friends of mine, performed for their
hearts. *OK Roxana* Later Sandra said of all the performers of the evening,
that they *had* to perform. That no one made them perform but that there was
something in them that led them to the stage. That performing was better
then not performing. I saw no coercion or humiliation, no agony as they
left the stage. This performance is closer, by far, to the hopes and dreams
that I have while I am perusing my AlwaysLeaning life than usual
professional work I do in entertainment.
-Dan Vilter
[Stepping down from his soap box]
> So my sister says as we are walking off "We need to get her in SunshineNOOooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
> Generation (a kids dancing and singing group)." I guess it hit me deeper than
> I initially realized because I come home and I'm thinking does she need to be
> in some kind of class like that?? The thing is she would love it.
I'm sorry.
Rational Thought...
[Climbing onto my soap box]
This is a hot button for me.
I work at a performing arts center. A place where dance schools have
performances to show case their student's work. There are currently about 8
schools that use our facility and I can't think of a one that has the
child's interest as it's primary focus. Some are better than others. In one
form or another all of them use shame, humiliation, and, massive amounts of
coercion to put their shows together to sell to the student's friends and
families. I see hours and hours of kids waiting to appear on stage, sitting
on the floor in the hallway being hassled for taking or playing or even
drawing while passing the time. "Homework" is often the only acceptable
activity. On stage they are often herded to place and screamed at for the
slightest misstep. I have seen 4 year olds humiliated for asking to go to
the restroom. And I have seen kids so scared they have peed their pants, on
stage, and then berated in front of everyone present for doing so.
These concerts are a major money making endeavor for many of the schools.
After paying for the classes, parents (and friends) must pay as much as $50
a ticket, inflated prices for costumes and props that the schools provide.
Then the fees for the party, the class picture, the performance picture,
etc, etc, etc. From my view it is a racket.
One of my best friends is a producer, director, and owns his own production
and costume company. He knows dozens of choreographers and hundreds of
dancers. It took him months of searching to find an appropriate school for
his 6 year old to attend. One that was [relatively] non coercive, where
performance was optional, where parents could be in the room during classes
and where the instructor cared about each student including the slow
graceless ones. I know that there must be many good dance schools out there.
But I was dumbfounded that a person with that much inside knowledge, who was
willing to drive 20 miles in any direction, encompassing millions of people
in Southern California had such a difficult time finding one.
If your daughter is singing and dancing on her own, why do you think she
needs a class? If you are worried about her learning the 'proper' way of
dancing isn't there plenty of time to learn when *she* thinks it is
important? Have you ever read the biographies of great dancers? Did you see
how much time, how much of their lives, they had to give up to become great?
Whenever I see a great performance by a young person I get a pang of guilt
knowing that they have traded (usually through coercion and guilt) some
essential part of their childhood for that *great* performance that I am
enjoying.
I love Dance. I know of no better kinetic expression of what it is to be
human than Dance. The moments of human Truth I have experienced while
watching a Ballet or an introspective modern dance work cannot be perceived
any other way. But lets not mix the difference of participating in the art
form as an audience member and as a performer. If you have ever been
backstage during a performance and seen the evolved preparation, the
exertion and pain required to give those seemingly effortless moves life,
the agony in the faces as theses artists come into the wings and the despair
of a person who's career has been ended by a seemingly minor injury, You
might wonder why anyone does it. I do.
I don't want to be a damper on something I love so much. But so much of path
to those magical, Truthful moments in the performance of Dance goes against
the unschooling lifestyle that my family enjoys.
In contrast, one of the best performances I have *ever* been a part of in
the 30 years I have been involved in entertainment, is the Talent Show at
the Homeschool Association of California conference this past August. Pam
got Jocelyn and I to supply the lighting and sound for the event and the
three of us acted as stage managers facilitating the flow of the evening.
Anyone at the conference who *wanted to* signed up for their minutes of fame
and presented whatever they cared to. This included dancing and singing and
jugging, skateboarding, and free form improvisational poetry. There was a
history talk given from the heart of a history lover. Sandra played a
recorder duet with herself on tape. There were three young people that
served as Masters of Ceremony. I thoroughly enjoyed it, even from the
wings. What made it so worthwhile for me was that the performances came from
within each of the performers. *Roxana don't read this next part* You could
have floated me down the American river I was so buoyant with pride as Pam's
kids, who I consider good personal friends of mine, performed for their
hearts. *OK Roxana* Later Sandra said of all the performers of the evening,
that they *had* to perform. That no one made them perform but that there was
something in them that led them to the stage. That performing was better
then not performing. I saw no coercion or humiliation, no agony as they
left the stage. This performance is closer, by far, to the hopes and dreams
that I have while I am perusing my AlwaysLeaning life than usual
professional work I do in entertainment.
-Dan Vilter
[Stepping down from his soap box]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/7/02 11:58:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Katguts@... writes:
<< Then you hear about think 'window' of time for people who go on to be
great and how their paren't always started then at 2,3, or 4. (Ok the
Olymipc thing is getting me I guess). :) It's just too easy to second guess
all of this.
What is you guys' take on it? Are they better off figuring it out on their
own? She's sort of at an age where she would happily do anything but if I
try to interfere by 'helping' she becomes immidiatly helpless and 'forgets'
how to do it. Like drawing. If I try to draw too at the same time as her
(different paper and everything) then she won't draw anymore and only wants
me to draw for her. I'd love to know if anyone else has struggled with this
and what happened there. >>
I just dig in my heels when I think about little kids doing classes. I know,
I know
some folks, their kids just love it (and that is usually they very social
ones--of
which I have two social children) and thats for them to decide, but I am
really
for keeping my little people at home and activity/class level low. My kids
ride motorcycles and dh would have let them race a couple of years ago
at 5 & 6. Other parents do. The kids aren't beggig, or even asking to do it
They ride now for fun, on trail rides
or on our neighbors motocross field he made. No pressure. And they
love it. I have a dh who thinks they should be racing now if they want a
motocross career (two of mine might I can see that, they are good) but
he doesn't push and really respects me on this. My feeling is if they
wait another year, two or four <g> they won't be behind because they
have still been riding all this time. So anyhow I don't think its necessary
for kids to do classes at 2, 3, 4. In fact my 4 yr old wanted to play soccer
with a hs class we had and the coach let him and he was developmentally
too young to do this much constant running (he is active, he is just 4),
so that would be my other concern of classes for preschool age from my
experiences.
Kathy
Katguts@... writes:
<< Then you hear about think 'window' of time for people who go on to be
great and how their paren't always started then at 2,3, or 4. (Ok the
Olymipc thing is getting me I guess). :) It's just too easy to second guess
all of this.
What is you guys' take on it? Are they better off figuring it out on their
own? She's sort of at an age where she would happily do anything but if I
try to interfere by 'helping' she becomes immidiatly helpless and 'forgets'
how to do it. Like drawing. If I try to draw too at the same time as her
(different paper and everything) then she won't draw anymore and only wants
me to draw for her. I'd love to know if anyone else has struggled with this
and what happened there. >>
I just dig in my heels when I think about little kids doing classes. I know,
I know
some folks, their kids just love it (and that is usually they very social
ones--of
which I have two social children) and thats for them to decide, but I am
really
for keeping my little people at home and activity/class level low. My kids
ride motorcycles and dh would have let them race a couple of years ago
at 5 & 6. Other parents do. The kids aren't beggig, or even asking to do it
They ride now for fun, on trail rides
or on our neighbors motocross field he made. No pressure. And they
love it. I have a dh who thinks they should be racing now if they want a
motocross career (two of mine might I can see that, they are good) but
he doesn't push and really respects me on this. My feeling is if they
wait another year, two or four <g> they won't be behind because they
have still been riding all this time. So anyhow I don't think its necessary
for kids to do classes at 2, 3, 4. In fact my 4 yr old wanted to play soccer
with a hs class we had and the coach let him and he was developmentally
too young to do this much constant running (he is active, he is just 4),
so that would be my other concern of classes for preschool age from my
experiences.
Kathy