Sandra Dodd

In discussing the singing of the lady in England who so impressed the
Britain Has Talent (or whatever show it is) judges, someone in a chat
asked what her voice was like and I said it was strong and clear. She
asked what "clear" was, with singing. I had left the chat, but wrote
later and said sorry I had missed the question and offered to try to
describe it.
=======================

-=-Sure! I'm curious. When a signer is clear, their fingers form each
letter and handshape cleanly, in a visually pleasing way. I'm
guessing that's what a clear voice is like as well?-=-

Maybe art is a better analogy. Sometimes people sketch with a pencil
or with paints so that they've made lots of short lines that end up
being the shape of something, but some people can make one very bold,
sharp line without hesitation and there's no waver in it. It looks
exactly like what it's supposed to look like.

And related to that, in zen paintings (Chinese brush paintings), there
are solid dark lines, and more watery lines, more grey.

With singing voices, someone can be right on a pitch and stay there--
not slide up to it, or down to it from another note, but it it exactly
where it is without hesitation and then stay there, with a clear
difference between the silence and that note, as with a black ink line
where the edge of the ink is separate from the white of the paper.

There are other kinds of singing voices and styles where people
purposely make their voice raspy so the tone is "wide"--not always at
the vibration of the note they're representing, so it's more like
sketching that note, or shading it, or using the watery ink. The
difference between note and not-note isn't as precise or surprising
(surprising isn't the word; stark? but stark sounds uncomfortable...)

People say "clear as a bell" sometimes, but a clear singing voice is
way more clear than a bell. Bells have after-tones and overtones...
very messy, physically (meaning the physics of the vibration of the
tone).

I sing, but I'm not a singing coach, so I'm probably missing some
aspect of terminology here. I'm going to run this by the Always
Learning list for clarification....

Sandra
=============================

As I was writing, I realized how accustomed I am now to having other
people read what I'm trying to say and to suggest better descriptions
or phrases.

Maybe someone can describe it in terms of physics and the "width" of
the range of vibrations that keep it on the right note. I don't much
love vibrato, but even with vibrato it needs to average out to the
right pitch.

Can you think of other ways to describe a clear singing voice?

Sandra

Pam Sorooshian

Roxana says if you're talking about vocal quality - it has to do with
the placement (where the resonance is mainly taking place in the head of
the singer) not back in the throat so that it is raspy or throaty or
muddy and not forward so far that it is nasal. But more forward than back.

-pam

Robyn L. Coburn

I was going to say something like Roxanna - that it had to do with placement
in the mouth, the shape of the mask, and also to do with the purity of sound
in reference to how much air/breath is heard in the note too.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

<<<<> I sing, but I'm not a singing coach, so I'm probably missing some
> aspect of terminology here. I'm going to run this by the Always
> Learning list for clarification....
> Can you think of other ways to describe a clear singing voice?>>>

[email protected]

>>>> I was going to say something like Roxanna - that it had to do with
placement
in the mouth, the shape of the mask, and also to do with the purity of
sound
in reference to how much air/breath is heard in the note too. <<<<

Hmmm (la la LA la la).... some apparently general singing advice
which sounds surprisingly like great ways to do well in deschooling and
unschooling (I see unschooling in probably more things these days,
really!). I thought it was interesting: http://tinyurl.com/cy42se

Some excerpts:

Breathe

Listen
If you can’t hear the note in your head, there is no way for your voice
to produce it. [...] Each individual must find their own path to their
note in their own way.

Warm Up

Get out of your own way
There is no forcing this process; it has to be natural. Don’t make your
voice do anything it doesn’t want to do. “Trying too hard and
anticipating everything too much makes you tighten up—like when you
know you are about to get into a car wreck. Go with the flow.” Use a
mirror to see if you are “scrunching up your face or reaching for notes
with your head or chin.” Focus on the meaning of the words that you are
singing, so the song projects the natural emotions of the lyric.



~Katherine

Dina

Are you looking to describe the sound of her voice to a Deaf person? While all of the suggestions are fantastic they are still descriptions that are geared towards Hearing culture.

In my experience as a Certified ASL Interpreter Deaf people have asked me to describe sounds/music and I have found the it easiest to help the Deaf person understand a sound using visual or emotional descriptors. Maybe a color or a feeling that her voice conveys.

In my opinion, Susan Boyle's voice sounds like clear water running in a brook. It also does sound clear like when someone signs beautifully and clearly articulates each sign. Some signers are hideous to watch (muddy) and some are absolutely breathtaking (either Hearing signers or Deaf).

Dina

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> In discussing the singing of the lady in England who so impressed the
> Britain Has Talent (or whatever show it is) judges, someone in a chat
> asked what her voice was like and I said it was strong and clear. She
> asked what "clear" was, with singing. I had left the chat, but wrote
> later and said sorry I had missed the question and offered to try to
> describe it.
> =======================
>
> -=-Sure! I'm curious. When a signer is clear, their fingers form each
> letter and handshape cleanly, in a visually pleasing way. I'm
> guessing that's what a clear voice is like as well?-=-
>
> Maybe art is a better analogy. Sometimes people sketch with a pencil
> or with paints so that they've made lots of short lines that end up
> being the shape of something, but some people can make one very bold,
> sharp line without hesitation and there's no waver in it. It looks
> exactly like what it's supposed to look like.
>
> And related to that, in zen paintings (Chinese brush paintings), there
> are solid dark lines, and more watery lines, more grey.
>
> With singing voices, someone can be right on a pitch and stay there--
> not slide up to it, or down to it from another note, but it it exactly
> where it is without hesitation and then stay there, with a clear
> difference between the silence and that note, as with a black ink line
> where the edge of the ink is separate from the white of the paper.
>
> There are other kinds of singing voices and styles where people
> purposely make their voice raspy so the tone is "wide"--not always at
> the vibration of the note they're representing, so it's more like
> sketching that note, or shading it, or using the watery ink. The
> difference between note and not-note isn't as precise or surprising
> (surprising isn't the word; stark? but stark sounds uncomfortable...)
>
> People say "clear as a bell" sometimes, but a clear singing voice is
> way more clear than a bell. Bells have after-tones and overtones...
> very messy, physically (meaning the physics of the vibration of the
> tone).
>
> I sing, but I'm not a singing coach, so I'm probably missing some
> aspect of terminology here. I'm going to run this by the Always
> Learning list for clarification....
>
> Sandra
> =============================
>
> As I was writing, I realized how accustomed I am now to having other
> people read what I'm trying to say and to suggest better descriptions
> or phrases.
>
> Maybe someone can describe it in terms of physics and the "width" of
> the range of vibrations that keep it on the right note. I don't much
> love vibrato, but even with vibrato it needs to average out to the
> right pitch.
>
> Can you think of other ways to describe a clear singing voice?
>
> Sandra
>

Pam Sorooshian

I don't think she was describing it for a Deaf person - but that was a
very very cool description and I'm passing your comments along to my
daughter who is working on becoming a certified ASL interpreter.

-pam

On 4/20/2009 8:54 PM, Dina wrote:
> Are you looking to describe the sound of her voice to a Deaf person? While all of the suggestions are fantastic they are still descriptions that are geared towards Hearing culture.
>
> In my experience as a Certified ASL Interpreter Deaf people have asked me to describe sounds/music and I have found the it easiest to help the Deaf person understand a sound using visual or emotional descriptors. Maybe a color or a feeling that her voice conveys.
>
> In my opinion, Susan Boyle's voice sounds like clear water running in a brook. It also does sound clear like when someone signs beautifully and clearly articulates each sign. Some signers are hideous to watch (muddy) and some are absolutely breathtaking (either Hearing signers or Deaf).
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Are you looking to describe the sound of her voice to a Deaf
person? -=-

I was.

-=- I have found the it easiest to help the Deaf person understand a
sound using visual ...descriptors-=-

I did. <g>

-=-In my opinion, Susan Boyle's voice sounds like clear water running
in a brook. -=-

But compared to what, as voices go? You mean sounds like clear water
looks? Because muddy water sounds the same.

I was trying to describe the remarkability of an exceptionally clear
singing voice, and I think it has to do with contrast and an
unwavering pitch. So describing the idea that some people's tones
are "broad..."

Ah. Maybe going back to the physical reality of a tone--the fact
that it's a particular vibration (or not) could apply to color. Even
in nature. Some leaves or flowers are colored several different
shades and it all averages out to "green" or "pink," but some are
truly one solid color throughout.

And there are flowers and leaves that are pretty because of the
variations and curly edges and various colors, and people might like
the singer's voice because of an ability to do vibrato or voice breaks
or trills or ornamental things. Susan Boyle wasn't that kind of
singer. Whitney Houston is.

With wind instruments (flute, recorder, sax, clarinet) there are
techniques involving purposely not making a clear tone, or sliding up
or down to a note a little bit with air pressure or the position of
the mouth.

Sometimes a musician is inexperienced or untalented and so does such
things by accident, and that's just a muddly mess.

Susan Boyle was no mess, no frills, and really good.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

almadoing

I know it's not the point of your post but I couldn't resist sending the link. Britain's Got Talent has only just got underway for the year and Susan Boyle has taken the country by storm. We Brits do like to support the underdog, the eccentric etc etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lp0IWv8QZY

Mind you these judges have had a few surprises in their time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hhOXu-wSoc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwRXDLOyiGo


Alison

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> In discussing the singing of the lady in England who so impressed the
> Britain Has Talent (or whatever show it is) judges, someone in a chat
> asked what her voice was like and I said it was strong and clear. She
> asked what "clear" was, with singing. I had left the chat, but wrote
> later and said sorry I had missed the question and offered to try to
> describe it.
> =======================

juillet727

My first thought:

A clear singing voice is like running my hand on a smooth piece of cool glass and sometimes, when the voice warbles or has vibrato, the glass gets long, undulating rolls in it like a slide. A "not clear" singing voice or gravelly voice (which can be equally nice to listen to in the right circumstance) is like running my hand across a tweed fabric or a fine sandpaper.
I wonder if that would help a hard of hearing person with the description of a clear singing voice?

~~Juillet



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Are you looking to describe the sound of her voice to a Deaf
> person? -=-
>
> I was.
>
> -=- I have found the it easiest to help the Deaf person understand a
> sound using visual ...descriptors-=-
>
> I did. <g>
>

Robyn L. Coburn

I wonder if people's idiosyncratic movements in signing are a bit like
regional accents. Sometimes they make the words harder to understand until
you get used to the sounds even in the same language.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

>I don't think she was describing it for a Deaf person - but that was a
> very very cool description and I'm passing your comments along to my
> daughter who is working on becoming a certified ASL interpreter.
>
> -pam
>
>> In my opinion, Susan Boyle's voice sounds like clear water running in a
>> brook. It also does sound clear like when someone signs beautifully and
>> clearly articulates each sign. Some signers are hideous to watch (muddy)
>> and some are absolutely breathtaking (either Hearing signers or Deaf).
>>

Sandra Dodd

This is beautiful, Juillet!

-=-A clear singing voice is like running my hand on a smooth piece of
cool glass and sometimes, when the voice warbles or has vibrato, the
glass gets long, undulating rolls in it like a slide. A "not clear"
singing voice or gravelly voice (which can be equally nice to listen
to in the right circumstance) is like running my hand across a tweed
fabric or a fine sandpaper.
I wonder if that would help a hard of hearing person with the
description of a clear singing voice?-=-

I'm forwarding these to the person who asked. This one was my favorite.


So while we're on the topic of using words to convey ideas about
things another person can't perceive in the way the writer does, are
there things already written about how blind people think of or
perceive color, or how people have described it to them?

My mom had a blind friend who could tell colors by touch pretty well.
He said there was a vibration. I don't doubt it. And I know
sometimes deaf people can touch an instrument or sit where an organ is
making the floor vibrate, and perceive things about music that hearing
people probably have no idea about.

If there are things Helen Keller wrote about these things, I'd be
willing to go there and read. This discussion has intrigued me.

I knew a woman who had no sense of taste or smell, and she chose her
foods by texture (by what she thought she needed nutritionally and
digestively first, but as to preferences it was texture).

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I wonder if people's idiosyncratic movements in signing are a bit
like
regional accents. Sometimes they make the words harder to understand
until
you get used to the sounds even in the same language.-=-

Thinking of Howard Gardner's intelligences, is the ability to sign
beautifully more a kinesthetic thing (bodily intelligence, like
dancing or sports) or is it something else? Would it be like a
musical intelligence thing, the aesthetics of rhythm and line (melody,
for hearing, but there must be something aesthetic about graceful
proportions even outside of music--I see it in tile jobs and walls and
fences sometimes.

When a hearing person signs well, is that more linguistic intelligence
or kinesthetic or a combination of both?

When someone doesn't play soccer well, will their signing maybe be
wooden or awkward as well?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Thank you for sending that.

I also watched the dance group called "Flawless." Wow.

Eynat Koren

My BIL is deaf. He can listen to music for hours, especially electronic,
by turning the volume high and touching the speakers.
He also loves partying, and is one of the most communicable people I know..
and he actually was able to be a DJ for a short while!
Unknowingly, he is one of my unschooling inspirations..

Eynat.

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:58 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

>
>
> Sandra. You could probably ask Adrean's husband about it. He is deaf-blind
> and an amazing man.
> He used to wirte at one of the groups and he is a writer and poet.
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

For a person who can see (and by that I don't mean can see *well* ...
just can see), color could impress on closed eyes in strong sunlight.
I used to feel a lot of color contrast in the light with my eyes closed
while riding in the car as a child. Now not so much but I still see
them. The colors move like waves .... I've always wondered if the
colors I'm seeing are the actual color group of the light I'm in.
I've never heard anybody else talk about that but then again, I'm very
interested in color anyway so I think I notice color in light just
because I love color.

Also... this whole thing connects with the thread about physiology,
health and an instinctive need for motion. The above color waving in
light experience is probably one of the major ways I fed that need.

~Katherine


On Apr 21, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> My mom had a blind friend who could tell colors by touch pretty well.
>

[email protected]

I think it depends on the comfort level with the activity. If soccer
bothers a person somehow no matter how much that person wants to play,
unease will show. The same with expressing ourselves in other ways.

Which is another reason I love unschooling. Parents have better
opportunities and strategies for increasing comfort.

~Katherine



On Apr 21, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> When someone doesn't play soccer well, will their signing maybe be
> wooden or awkward as well?

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/21/2009 9:39 AM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
> I wonder if people's idiosyncratic movements in signing are a bit like
> regional accents. Sometimes they make the words harder to understand until
> you get used to the sounds even in the same language.
>
>

People have their own individual styles.

There are actual regional accents in signing, like there are in voiced
speaking.

There is slang. There is development of new words over time.

And - there are "speech impediments" - sort of like articulation
problems like lisps, I guess. I know someone who has an inflexible
finger - that hampers her signing.

-pam

Nancy Wooton

On Apr 21, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> This is beautiful, Juillet!
>
> -=-A clear singing voice is like running my hand on a smooth piece of
> cool glass and sometimes, when the voice warbles or has vibrato, the
> glass gets long, undulating rolls in it like a slide. A "not clear"
> singing voice or gravelly voice (which can be equally nice to listen
> to in the right circumstance) is like running my hand across a tweed
> fabric or a fine sandpaper.
> I wonder if that would help a hard of hearing person with the
> description of a clear singing voice?-=-
>
> I'm forwarding these to the person who asked. This one was my
> favorite.
>
>
> So while we're on the topic of using words to convey ideas about
> things another person can't perceive in the way the writer does, are
> there things already written about how blind people think of or
> perceive color, or how people have described it to them?
>
> My mom had a blind friend who could tell colors by touch pretty well.
> He said there was a vibration. I don't doubt it. And I know
> sometimes deaf people can touch an instrument or sit where an organ is
> making the floor vibrate, and perceive things about music that hearing
> people probably have no idea about.
>
> If there are things Helen Keller wrote about these things, I'd be
> willing to go there and read. This discussion has intrigued me.
>
> I knew a woman who had no sense of taste or smell, and she chose her
> foods by texture (by what she thought she needed nutritionally and
> digestively first, but as to preferences it was texture).
>
> Sandra
>


You must know about Evelyn Glennie, Sandra -- the Scottish
percussionist who's been deaf since childhood:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=evelyn+glennie&aq=1&oq=Evelyn

Nancy

Sandra Dodd

-=-You must know about Evelyn Glennie, Sandra -- the Scottish
percussionist who's been deaf since childhood:-=-

I didn't know, but I do now!
Thanks,

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon Burton

This is the first time I've posted to an unschooling site, although I have been silently lurking in the shadows for months (and, for maybe the first time in my life, keeping my mouth shut).

The changes in our lives already are amazing, although there are still "hot spots" in my acceptance of Jeremiah (7.5) and Annalise (4.75) exactly as they are, in this moment.  I'm breathing - a lot!

This thread interested me because I have been dealing with a very similar issue in a fantasy story I've been working on for my own amusement.  There are shapeshifting humanoid/felinoids, a technology based on a symbiosis between people and plants, and several differing methods of sensing environments.  Explaining this in the prose has been a simple matter compared to opening my own mind to how these beings must be perceiving their realities....

Sort of like our journey into mindful parenting...?

Anyway, thank you all so much for being here, for having not only answers, but also attitudes and stories that prove to me that not only is this way of life possible, it's natural and rich, filled with moments of grace that sneak in at the edges of things (often at 4:30 am around here!).  I konw you've all heard this before, but you have helped the Burton family become more joyous and peaceful!

Peace! =)
Shannon

"There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth. So what the hell, leap." - Cynthia Heimel




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Wiley

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> Thank you for sending that.
>
> I also watched the dance group called "Flawless." Wow.
>






Have you ever seen the clip of an ASL interpreter signing the songs at a
Pearl Jam concert? Watching her takes my breath away--so beautiful.

*http://tinyurl.com/d4vwfk*


Lissa in San Diego, mom of six


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

Wow. Gorgeous. Thanks Melissa.

My daughter wants to specialize in entertainment signing - she's going
to a workshop tomorrow night on signing musical theater.

-pam

On 4/23/2009 12:40 PM, Melissa Wiley wrote:
> Have you ever seen the clip of an ASL interpreter signing the songs at a
> Pearl Jam concert? Watching her takes my breath away--so beautiful.
>
>

Robin Bentley

> Have you ever seen the clip of an ASL interpreter signing the songs
> at a
> Pearl Jam concert? Watching her takes my breath away--so beautiful.
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/d4vwfk*
>
>
Oh, my....she *is* breathtaking.

She's dancing, and playing (like playing the instruments) while she's
signing, too!

I like the way Eddie Vedder looks over at her throughout the
performance. It must be fascinating to see your music and lyrics
signed, while you sing.

Robin B.

Dina

Pam,

There is an intensive Musical Theather interpreting program here in NYC that is affiliated with Juilliard. I haven't gone through the program myself but have friends who have. Its pretty intense but a wonderful experience. A friend of mine is the instructor.

Something for your daughter to check out for the future. We have A LOT of interpreted performances here (Broadway and off-Broadway) as well as concerts.

The closest I've come was when I was an interpreter on a cruise and interpreted the shows. A LOT easier to do when you know what the lyrics are!

Dina

--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
> > Have you ever seen the clip of an ASL interpreter signing the songs
> > at a
> > Pearl Jam concert? Watching her takes my breath away--so beautiful.
> >
> > *http://tinyurl.com/d4vwfk*
> >
> >
> Oh, my....she *is* breathtaking.
>
> She's dancing, and playing (like playing the instruments) while she's
> signing, too!
>
> I like the way Eddie Vedder looks over at her throughout the
> performance. It must be fascinating to see your music and lyrics
> signed, while you sing.
>
> Robin B.
>

[email protected]

I don't know how that was set up. If Eddie knew the woman who signed
it didn't seem like it. And he put her up on stage, then danced with
her after the signs, and there was no awkward "ok, you're done" pause
at the end. I agree, he seemed totally thrilled to have her there. It
was fun to watch.

~Katherine



On Apr 23, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Robin Bentley wrote:

>> Have you ever seen the clip of an ASL interpreter signing the songs
>> at a
>> Pearl Jam concert? Watching her takes my breath away--so beautiful.
>>
>> *http://tinyurl.com/d4vwfk*
>>
>>
> Oh, my....she *is* breathtaking.
>
> She's dancing, and playing (like playing the instruments) while she's
> signing, too!
>
> I like the way Eddie Vedder looks over at her throughout the
> performance. It must be fascinating to see your music and lyrics
> signed, while you sing.
>
> Robin B.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/23/2009 5:06 PM, Dina wrote:
> There is an intensive Musical Theather interpreting program here in NYC that is affiliated with Juilliard. I haven't gone through the program myself but have friends who have. Its pretty intense but a wonderful experience. A friend of mine is the instructor.
>
> Something for your daughter to check out for the future. We have A LOT of interpreted performances here (Broadway and off-Broadway) as well as concerts.
>
> The closest I've come was when I was an interpreter on a cruise and interpreted the shows. A LOT easier to do when you know what the lyrics are!
>
>

Well - the plan is <g> that Roxana will be performing on Broadway and
Rosie will be interpreting for her!

-pam

[email protected]

Oh now how cool is that?! If the plan happens I'd sure love to know
how that goes.

~Katherine



On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:53 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
>>
>
> Well - the plan is <g> that Roxana will be performing on Broadway and
> Rosie will be interpreting for her!
>
> -pam
>

diana jenner

>
> Have you ever seen the clip of an ASL interpreter signing the songs at a
> Pearl Jam concert? Watching her takes my breath away--so beautiful.
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/d4vwfk*
>

I want *her* job!!! I oft thought I could get cheap/free tix if I
interpreted the concert :D I did interpret billy joel/elton john, from my
seat - I was waaay to shy to ask about a place on stage, though my friend
was entitled to an interpreter :D

I actually discussed the Susan Boyle thing with a deaf friend (she is not
culturally Deaf, hence the *d*eaf). I did a comparison/contrast
description, as in I described her dowdy presentation and the shock of the
audience when she sang with a smooth voice (I think I used an exaggerated
delicious--->smooth sign). In that specific situation, however, I think her
voice quality was best understood by viewing the reaction of the audience.

~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

> I want *her* job!!! I oft thought I could get cheap/free tix if I
> interpreted the concert :D I did interpret billy joel/elton john,
> from my
> seat - I was waaay to shy to ask about a place on stage, though my
> friend
> was entitled to an interpreter :D

You should do it, Diana! Start with Amy Steinberg at Life is Good <g>

Robin B.