gaining skills by offering to apprentice
cindyjsowers
This is a comment for Sandra. I don't ever post on groups, liking to maintain my quiet life out of the limelight :) But I have been reading through some of Sandra's webpage and I think it may have been on Sandra's blog, where I read that she had thought to pay a flower shop to apprentice a child (I hope I am getting the scenario right -- I have read through quite a lot and it might be I am losing details) so that they could gain skills in a particular area. Anyway, I just wanted to say I thought that idea brilliant. But really it's no different than paying a college or university. It had just never occurred to me that you could do something like that and I doubt I would have ever thought to ask. I don't know why, but when I read that bit I just went, wow, yes, of course that is how you would learn something like that, just offer to pay to apprentice. Anyway, for some reason that idea just made sense to me in a really big way. Wanted to say thanks for that bit.
Cindy
Cindy
Ren Allen
~~I just wanted to say I thought that idea brilliant. But really it's no
different than paying a college or university.~~
I hugely disagree. I think mentorships are a whole different ball game on MANY levels. First of all, they cost less. Secondly, you are finding someone passionately pursuing the topic, not just teaching about it. You tend to get people who are sharing their interest in a natural way, not trying to cram information into a bunch of students heads. You also have SO much less hassle (colleges have entry tests and requirements and all sorts of bureaucratic bullshit to deal with), no tests or grades or.....
I could go on and on about the differences between mentorship and college courses, but there are so many.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
different than paying a college or university.~~
I hugely disagree. I think mentorships are a whole different ball game on MANY levels. First of all, they cost less. Secondly, you are finding someone passionately pursuing the topic, not just teaching about it. You tend to get people who are sharing their interest in a natural way, not trying to cram information into a bunch of students heads. You also have SO much less hassle (colleges have entry tests and requirements and all sorts of bureaucratic bullshit to deal with), no tests or grades or.....
I could go on and on about the differences between mentorship and college courses, but there are so many.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
cindyjsowers
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
Cindy
> I hugely disagree.Ren -- I didn't mean "no different" in all the ways you described, I was only meaning no different in the "exchanging money for something you want" sort of way. I wasn't meaning to imply you were getting the same exact thing for your buck.
Cindy
Sandra Dodd
In the case of Holly and the flower shop, though we were willing to
pay them money, the deal is she works on Monday afternoon for pay, and
other times during the week, when they need help (if she's not working
at Zumiez) without pay. They're talking about making a MySpace
page. THAT is certainly something Holly can do without much effort.
If they do task her with making a MySpace page, for work, for money,
then I can point to three years or so of Holly's unwitting preparation
for a future job. <g>
One difference between the flower shop and paying for a class is that
this is open-ended, it's real. The first day she was there she made a
little arrangement and a few days later she was in the shop when
someone bought it!!
The shop (it's actually two shops; one on the air base, and she's been
to that one one day)... the owner paid for Holly to attend an all day
Teleflora workshop, with the other employees. That was pretty cool!
Holly could quit any time without "failing." If she's done at the end
of the spring season, she fulfilled the original deal. If they like
her and she wants to stay, cool!
It's both less artificial and lower pressure. It's real AND casual
(compared to college or a formal course).
Sandra
pay them money, the deal is she works on Monday afternoon for pay, and
other times during the week, when they need help (if she's not working
at Zumiez) without pay. They're talking about making a MySpace
page. THAT is certainly something Holly can do without much effort.
If they do task her with making a MySpace page, for work, for money,
then I can point to three years or so of Holly's unwitting preparation
for a future job. <g>
One difference between the flower shop and paying for a class is that
this is open-ended, it's real. The first day she was there she made a
little arrangement and a few days later she was in the shop when
someone bought it!!
The shop (it's actually two shops; one on the air base, and she's been
to that one one day)... the owner paid for Holly to attend an all day
Teleflora workshop, with the other employees. That was pretty cool!
Holly could quit any time without "failing." If she's done at the end
of the spring season, she fulfilled the original deal. If they like
her and she wants to stay, cool!
It's both less artificial and lower pressure. It's real AND casual
(compared to college or a formal course).
Sandra
cindyjsowers
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Cindy
> It's both less artificial and lower pressure. It's real AND casualI love this. The idea that you could find work FIRST, before you have all the skills, and use the job to try out and gain the skills, for whatever reason is a bit of a revelation to me. It feels like it opens up quite a lot of possibilities in my mind that hadn't been there before. It's very cool to me that people are happily going about their business doing things that seem obvious and make sense to them, that never even occurred to me. I thank you for that.
> (compared to college or a formal course).
Cindy
Sandra Dodd
-=-The idea that you could find work FIRST, before you have all the
skills, and use the job to try out and gain the skills...-=-
My other kids had learned lots from their jobs--all sorts of things.
So I was sure Holly would learn wherever she was, and if she couldn't
work at a flower shop without flower shop experience... that was the
problem.
Because Holly works at a cool store and sees the competition all
around them at the mall for selling artsy sports shoes and tshirts by
famous artists (famous tshirt artists <g>), after she hung around the
flower shop a few weeks she told me the owner was marketing it 90's
style, and there were a few simple things she could do to update and
upgrade.
Well! Maybe Holly's learning management and advertising. <g> What
she's doing is what she's always done, though--being observant, asking
questions, doing what she can to make things work better in the
moments that she's there working.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
skills, and use the job to try out and gain the skills...-=-
My other kids had learned lots from their jobs--all sorts of things.
So I was sure Holly would learn wherever she was, and if she couldn't
work at a flower shop without flower shop experience... that was the
problem.
Because Holly works at a cool store and sees the competition all
around them at the mall for selling artsy sports shoes and tshirts by
famous artists (famous tshirt artists <g>), after she hung around the
flower shop a few weeks she told me the owner was marketing it 90's
style, and there were a few simple things she could do to update and
upgrade.
Well! Maybe Holly's learning management and advertising. <g> What
she's doing is what she's always done, though--being observant, asking
questions, doing what she can to make things work better in the
moments that she's there working.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Oddly enough, apprenticeships are a big buzzword in the UK at present and
the government is throwing lots of money at them. They're viewed as a way
of engaging those designated in policy-speak as "NEETS" (young people Not
in Education, Employment or Training). Of course, this set-up probably
falls way short of the apprenticeships set up by the efforts and initiative of
unschoolers, as I'm sure there'll be an element of compulsion to these
apprenticeships along the lines of "Do this or we'll cut your welfare
benefits".
But I've seen a couple of the Creative Apprenticeships in action. These
particular instances were driven by the interest of the participants. And
they did provide a practical route into artistic employment/freelancing for
young people who passionately wanted to be practicing artists and might
otherwise spend 3 or more years at college doing a lot of theory. One example
is a young songwriter who was part of the pilot scheme at a local music
venue. She was given lots of opportunities to facilitate vocal workshops,
to run her own business and to hone her performance skills. She's now
massively in demand and has neither had to sit any exams nor compromise any part
of her creative vision.
I guess it's a glimmer of hope that, somewhere in a tiny corner of the
powers-that-be, there's some recognition that school is not everything.
Jude
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the government is throwing lots of money at them. They're viewed as a way
of engaging those designated in policy-speak as "NEETS" (young people Not
in Education, Employment or Training). Of course, this set-up probably
falls way short of the apprenticeships set up by the efforts and initiative of
unschoolers, as I'm sure there'll be an element of compulsion to these
apprenticeships along the lines of "Do this or we'll cut your welfare
benefits".
But I've seen a couple of the Creative Apprenticeships in action. These
particular instances were driven by the interest of the participants. And
they did provide a practical route into artistic employment/freelancing for
young people who passionately wanted to be practicing artists and might
otherwise spend 3 or more years at college doing a lot of theory. One example
is a young songwriter who was part of the pilot scheme at a local music
venue. She was given lots of opportunities to facilitate vocal workshops,
to run her own business and to hone her performance skills. She's now
massively in demand and has neither had to sit any exams nor compromise any part
of her creative vision.
I guess it's a glimmer of hope that, somewhere in a tiny corner of the
powers-that-be, there's some recognition that school is not everything.
Jude
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>have all the skills, and use the job to try out and gain the skills, for
> >>I love this. The idea that you could find work FIRST, before you
whatever reason is a bit of a revelation to me. >>>
It's interesting too, because floral shops are always looking for
people, but they always want qualified, experienced people that they
don't pay lots of money to. I see ads for floral shops repeatedly for
months before flower seasons. What Sandra did, was take the risk away
from the shop owners, to hire someone without experience. It's cool,
and I'd be willing to bet that there are other jobs like this, that need
experience, but want it inexpensively, without risk.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I guess it's a glimmer of hope that, somewhere in a tiny corner of
the
powers-that-be, there's some recognition that school is not
everything. -=-
I doubt it was the idea of the schools, though.
Apprenticeship is the old-time way. Medieval. The bad thing about
it then was that in some cases, it seems, people's parents paid big
bucks and signed a contract that the kid would stay there for two
years (or whatever), and the child went to live at the home of the
craftsmaster (or whatever it was) and did grunt work for free for two
years. Sometimes kids were put into apprenticeships against their
will. Worse than being sent to college. At least at college there
are other people to hang out with.
It's an interesting topic, but I don't doubt that if it were to become
institutionalized again, there would be parents pressing their kids
into apprenticeships they didn't want.
In the case of the situation with Holly, "the powers that be" were
just my imagination and initiative, Holly's strong interest, and the
curious willingness of the shop owner. Nobody "had to" do anything,
and that makes the whole thing pleasant and happy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the
powers-that-be, there's some recognition that school is not
everything. -=-
I doubt it was the idea of the schools, though.
Apprenticeship is the old-time way. Medieval. The bad thing about
it then was that in some cases, it seems, people's parents paid big
bucks and signed a contract that the kid would stay there for two
years (or whatever), and the child went to live at the home of the
craftsmaster (or whatever it was) and did grunt work for free for two
years. Sometimes kids were put into apprenticeships against their
will. Worse than being sent to college. At least at college there
are other people to hang out with.
It's an interesting topic, but I don't doubt that if it were to become
institutionalized again, there would be parents pressing their kids
into apprenticeships they didn't want.
In the case of the situation with Holly, "the powers that be" were
just my imagination and initiative, Holly's strong interest, and the
curious willingness of the shop owner. Nobody "had to" do anything,
and that makes the whole thing pleasant and happy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cindyjsowers
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
---Apprenticeship is the old-time way. Medieval.
I remember reading about Benjamin Franklin and how apprenticeships were done during those days. I think the parents, in probably most cases, felt they knew which would be the best field for their children to apprentice in and they made arrangements a bit like arranged marriages. It wasn't necessarily a case of children's interests being considered. I like that in your case, Sandra, you and your child were on the look-out for something that the child might enjoy, and I'm sure she would have been able to say, "well, thanks, mom, but I'm not sure flowers are really my thing" or whatever and that would be it. Not so in early times apprenticeships, I don't think :) What I really like was that this scenario offered something for all parties involved -- a win-win situation, if you will. The store is being offered cash, taking any perceived risk out of it for them; and because of that, if your child didn't care for this line of work after a bit, she also wouldn't have to feel that she "owed" the store anything, nor would you. I think this particular set-up, where it is a loose agreement between just a couple of people, is rather optimal. It occurs to me after hearing about it, that there may be any number of businesses and trades that might consider something like this, if someone approached them casually. Not everyone perceives themselves as a mentor or teacher to others and might not be willing to sign up for any state program or anything, but I would think there are a lot of people who do have something they know how to do well and who would be willing to consider this situation on a casual basis. Kind of a "let's see if it might be something we would enjoy" type thing.
-----Nobody "had to" do anything, and that makes the whole thing pleasant and happy.
Which is exactly what I like about it and why it struck me as so brilliant.
Cindy
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
When I was 13 I started to show dogs professionaly and by the age 16 I wanted to learn more on showing and grooming. That is whne friends of mine helped me get a position working for a professional handler here in the US. They too have done that and that is how most handlers learn , by working for another handler.
I worked for a handler and she has been family since than. It was an awesome experience. My parents weere Ok with me dropping out of 11th grade to do it. When I was back in Brazil a year later I went back to school and graduated and then went to Law School. But living abroad, working and learning so much about EVERYTHING was a priceless experience. I worked my little butt off that year and I loved it!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I worked for a handler and she has been family since than. It was an awesome experience. My parents weere Ok with me dropping out of 11th grade to do it. When I was back in Brazil a year later I went back to school and graduated and then went to Law School. But living abroad, working and learning so much about EVERYTHING was a priceless experience. I worked my little butt off that year and I loved it!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]