Jennifer Croce

--- On Sat, 4/4/09, Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:


>There are other people unschooling and offering daycare in their home for
greater or fewer numbers of kids. I don't know how they do it. I'm being
really honest here. It seems to me that you are saying you want help finding
balance, but maybe what you are really looking for is support in partly
unschooling, because I don't know what really balancing a daycare and
unschooling would look like.<

>I really don't know how daycare operators can give their own children the
focus and attention that real, flourishing, magical, successful unschooling
seems to demand of me for my child when they are bringing any number of
other children in to their home and being asked to realize the expectations
of the other children's parents on a regular basis.<
 
 
It think it is challenging for anyone to imagine how a situation would work if they aren't in it or have no experience with it.  I don't know how people with more than 2 children do it, I am often overwhelmed with 2.  I feel my daycare has been very successful because I choose to do it and run it the way I want to.  Witnessing the power of choice in my own life is what made me realize what the power choice gives you and allows me to be open and interested in an unschooling lifestyle. 
 
I am fortunate that I don't have to work for money, my daycare provides supplemental income.  I feel stay at home mothers work very hard, they just don't get financially compensated.  I had other jobs outside the home while I have been a mother (I am a psychotherapist and worked for a short time when Anna was 6 months old but hated it since I wanted to be home with her.  I also worked in a daycare center and brought Anna with me after my husband lost his job in 2004).  I have developed a lot of confidence and happiness from creating and running my own business, and even more happiness knowing that it has minimal impact on my family. We do not have the issues most two income families have. 
 
My children may not experience the "full amazing transcendent brilliance of natural learning moments" while I run my daycare, but they are getting other amazing moments from it.  For instance, my 2 1/2 year old has picked up the pacifier of a younger child and gave it back to her because she was crying.  She has, on her own, shared her toys and belongings with the daycare children.  I made sure my older daughter's room was off limits so she has a place to go to get away from the daycare chaos.  My younger daughter also has the choice to play in her room alone if she wants to.  My older daughter is thrilled to help with the daycare next year.  She enjoys coming up with ideas for activities and designs decorations for the coat hooks and bulletin board.  She also loves reading to the daycare children.  I have not asked her to do any of these things she has done them on her own.  I would never expect her to do anything in regards to
the daycare. She will have the option of participating or playing on her own.  The daycare children nap from about 12:30-2:30pm so that allows me some one on one time with Anna.  Plus, I close at 4pm and am closed anytime the public schools are, I also don't work on Wednesday.  
 
I think having my daughters witness me working and being able to help support our family financially is very important.  I grew up with a stay at home mother and was always taken care of financially.  Even though I know I was very fortunate I don't think it was the best thing.  I hope my girls learn the importance of being able to support themselves in every way including financially.   I feel good knowing that I am able to pay for extra curricular activities for my children that otherwise I might not be able to afford.  Working also allows me to do things for myself without feeling guilty or putting financial strain on the family..  I do not put a lot of importance on "stuff".  In fact, I requested no gifts for my daughter's birthdays last year since they have more material things than they will ever need/use.  I explained to Anna that having people take the time to celebrate the day with her was what was important and
special, not the gift they bring.  I encouraged extended family members to spend time with her (go to a movie, out to lunch etc) instead of wasting money on a toy that will most likely not be used for more than a few weeks.  I have implemented this policy for everyone in our immediate family, not just our children.  
 
I have also been incorporating community service in our lives and focus on giving rather than receiving whenever possible.  When we go grocery shopping I ask Anna to pick out a few groceries to put in the food pantry bin on the way out.  I ran a goodie bag stuffing party with Anna's Girl Scout troop for an organization called Birthday Wishes which provides birthday parties for children in homeless shelters.  I am organizing the same event with the Sunday school kids at our church (I am a Sunday school teacher).  
 
I think the beauty of unschooling is that each family can do it the way that works best for them.  I see homeschooling as an opportunity not just a choice and unschooling as even a better choice within that realm.  I continue to learn from this list and am devouring every book I can get my hands on since it is so interesting to me.  I am implementing unschooling into my parenting and am seeing immediate positive results.  I realize I have made some choices that limit being able to fully unschool, but I believe it will still be successful because I am open and committed to doing it.
 
Jen   





















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-It think it is challenging for anyone to imagine how a situation
would work if they aren't in it or have no experience with it. -=-

It's nearly impossible for people who haven't unschooled to understand
or even imagine what it really takes to make unschooling work well.

-=-I don't know how people with more than 2 children do it, I am often
overwhelmed with 2. I feel my daycare has been very successful -=-

The stories you've shared with us on this list make it sound
problematical.

-=-... because I choose to do it and run it the way I want to. -=-

You've shared on the list already that you need to follow a curriculum
and keep your own child out of certain rooms while the other children
are over.

-=-Witnessing the power of choice in my own life is what made me
realize what the power choice gives you and allows me to be open and
interested in an unschooling lifestyle. -=-

You may find that you need to choose not to run a daycare to make
unschooling work, if that turns out to be your priority.

-=-My children may not experience the "full amazing transcendent
brilliance of natural learning moments"-=-

Was that a quote from this discussion? I don't remember seeing it.
Please don't misuse quotation marks. (And if someone did use that
phrase, someone refresh my memory, please.)

-=-I think having my daughters witness me working and being able to
help support our family financially is very important. I grew up with
a stay at home mother and was always taken care of financially. Even
though I know I was very fortunate I don't think it was the best
thing. I hope my girls learn the importance of being able to support
themselves in every way including financially. -=-

The purpose of this list is to help people see unschooling better. If
a mother who doesn't need to work works so that her children will
learn the importance of being able to support themselves, where will
they learn the importance of putting one's own children's needs above
other people's? If working is a necessity, a child can learn to
accept the mother shunting them aside sometimes for work, but when
it's not a necessity, that must be harder to accept.

-=-I feel good knowing that I am able to pay for extra curricular
activities for my children that otherwise I might not be able to
afford. -=-

It there's no "curricular," there's no "extra-curricular." You'll
never be able to buy the time back with a two year old.

-=- I do not put a lot of importance on "stuff". In fact, I
requested no gifts for my daughter's birthdays last year since they
have more material things than they will ever need/use. I explained
to Anna that having people take the time to celebrate the day with her
was what was important and
special, not the gift they bring. -=-

Did she understand you?
Did they request gifts or no gifts for *your* birthday?

-=-I encouraged extended family members to spend time with her (go to
a movie, out to lunch etc) instead of wasting money on a toy that will
most likely not be used for more than a few weeks. I have implemented
this policy for everyone in our immediate family, not just our
children. -=-

How does your husband feel about your implementation of policies
concerning his birthday?

If I bought a toy for one of your children because I thought she might
like it, and she used it for one HOUR, who are you to say it was
"wasted money"?

-=-I ran a goodie bag stuffing party with Anna's Girl Scout troop for
an organization called Birthday Wishes which provides birthday parties
for children in homeless shelters. -=-

So the homeless kids get gifts and your kids don't?

-=-I think the beauty of unschooling is that each family can do it the
way that works best for them. -=-

It can only be stretched so far, though, and still be unschooling.

-=- I realize I have made some choices that limit being able to fully
unschool, but I believe it will still be successful because I am open
and committed to doing it.-=-

You can't be self-limited AND committed in equal measure.

Because a thousand people might read what you wrote, I want to sort
out what might be helpful to other new unschoolers from what is could
keep them from understanding it easily.

Sandra

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cathyandgarth

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> You may find that you need to choose not to run a daycare to make
> unschooling work, if that turns out to be your priority.
>

Guess this is the problem with trying to write a post while playing with a 4 year old, helping a 7 year old paint her and her friend's toenails, and watching a 9 year old and his friend unlock a new Brawl character ... by the time I hit send everything I was saying has already been said at least once <g>. Except Sandra is always way more concise!

Cathy

Sandra Dodd

-=-by the time I hit send everything I was saying has already been
said at least once =-

I think it's very useful when something is said by more than one person!


Someone wrote on the side to tell me that the transcendent experience
quote came from something Robyn wrote. Sorry about the confusion.

Sandra



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Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<> -=-My children may not experience the "full amazing transcendent
> brilliance of natural learning moments"-=-
>
> Was that a quote from this discussion? I don't remember seeing it.
> Please don't misuse quotation marks. (And if someone did use that
> phrase, someone refresh my memory, please.)>>>>

I said that within my first post to this thread. It was after the older kids
stuff that you have already responded to... too poetic? I have to say that I
meant to express this about the *parent* experiencing that at times in
observing their unschooling children. I have felt that way at times, and
been so grateful to unschooling.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-= It was after the older kids
stuff that you have already responded to... too poetic? -=-

Not too poetic. I actually really liked it. I didn't want it to be
used sarcastically, whether it was a quote or an amalgam. Because
wonderful things really DO happen with natural learning, and I don't
want it pooh-poohed or belittled on this list.

Things happen that are so wonderful that they take my breath away, and
I was unwilling to have that questioned on my very own list.

There have been a couple of side questions and confusions so I want to
remind people that this list is for the discussion of ideas, not for
the solving of individual people's problems (nor even for the full
airing and clarification of individual people's situations).

The advice given should be offered from the point of view of what will
help people unschool better. We don't need to share generic advice.
The world is FULL of generic advice and of "support," so let's save
our strength and enthusiasm on this list for the really good stuff!

(Thanks, Robyn, for the clarification.)

Sandra

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space_and_freedom

In one e-mail Jen wrote:

> I decided to open a home daycare so I could work and still
> be available for my girls.
<<snip>>
> Even though it isn't perfect, I feel it is a lot better than
> working outside the home and having my girls in daycare or
> before/after school care.

Certainly having my kids at home (even with my attentions divided) would be better than putting my kids in someone else's care....

BUT, you set this up as an either or choice. Either you run a daycare or your kids are in daycare. You have given yourself two bad choices and act like since you chose the lesser of two evils you have done well by your kids. There are other choices than the two.

Then in another e-mail Jen wrote:

> I am fortunate that I don't have to work for money, my daycare
> provides supplemental income.

So you don't have to work. You have more choices than you are giving yourself.

> I have developed a lot of confidence and happiness from creating
> and running my own business, and even more happiness knowing that it > has minimal impact on my family.

Think of how much more your kids would benefit if you could gain confidence and happiness from being the best unschoolig Mom you could be for them. (Then you wouldn't have to worry about impact, minimal or otherwise.)

> Witnessing the power of choice in my own life is what made me
> realize what the power choice gives you and allows me to be open
> and interested in an unschooling lifestyle.

Using the "power of choice" works much better when you are open to more than two choices in any given situation.

Jen H. (DD8, DD6, DS3)

space_and_freedom

> --- In [email protected], Jennifer Croce
> <jennifercroce37@...> wrote:

> I think having my daughters witness me working and being able
> to help support our family financially is very important. I grew up > with a stay at home mother and was always taken care of
> financially. Even though I know I was very fortunate I don't think > it was the best thing. I hope my girls learn the importance of
> being able to support themselves in every way including
> financially.

I think it is important for my girls to learn that having an equal vote in a relationship is not dependent upon bringing in an income. That my husband values my contribution to the family as a Wife and Mother.

My girls and I have discussions about ways to make money and have a satisfying job BEFORE they have kids. My kids need me HERE and NOW. (And it just so happens that being a stay at home, unschooling, Mom is the most satisfying job I've ever had.)

> I hope my girls learn the importance of being able to support
> themselves in every way including financially.

I hope my kids learn how to have give and take in a relationship, and be able to trust in someone else's (aka: a spouse's) support so they don't have to do it all for themselves in every way.

Jen H. (DD8, DD6, DS3)

Jenny C

>>> It think it is challenging for anyone to imagine how a situation
would work if they aren't in it or have no experience with it. I don't
know how people with more than 2 children do it, I am often overwhelmed
with 2. >>>

I don't have to imagine how it would work. Our family has had
roommates, single mothers with children. There have been many occasions
where I was the one doing childcare. It wasn't long term ever, and I
managed to get through it. They were kids that I loved dearly, kids of
friends that I loved dearly, and I can say without a doubt, that
experience showed me how much my priorities changed with other kids
around. I had time restraints, other personalities to contend with,
toys to be shared differently, more food preperations, more clean up,
less one on one time with each of my own children.

Since other people's children have different people they are bonded to,
there won't be the same kind of relationship give and take with other
people's kids.

I've also worked outside the home while unschooling, and I can tell
everyone all the pros and cons of that too. Ultimately, at this point,
ANY thing that I do that isn't focused on my kids and my family must be
seriously examined. The benefits would have to waaay way outweigh any
cons.

Unschooling doesn't necessarily get easier as kids get older, in fact,
I'd say, I do MORE now than when my oldest was little. The things now
are much more involved in regards to time commitments, traveling, and
physical involvement. I need the freedom to be able to do things when
the timing is right.

>
>>> I am fortunate that I don't have to work for money, my daycare
provides supplemental income. I feel stay at home mothers work very
hard, they just don't get financially compensated. I had other jobs
outside the home while I have been a mother (I am a psychotherapist and
worked for a short time when Anna was 6 months old but hated it since I
wanted to be home with her. >>>

This is something to consider... If you have the ability to do other
jobs such as psychotherapy, how might doing something like this be
better or worse than doing childcare all day 5 days a week?

If psychotherapy is something that you could do for a few hrs a week and
get paid for, the whole rest of the week could all be with and for your
kids. If someone felt compelled to work, when they didn't have to,
there are more than just 2 options. My experience says kids handle mom
being unavailable for a few hours much easier than a half available mom
that is there all the time.


>>> For instance, my 2 1/2 year old has picked up the pacifier of a
younger child and gave it back to her because she was crying. She has,
on her own, shared her toys and belongings with the daycare children.>>>

That's very sweet, but I think kids can learn that in any setting,
especially if they are happy and secure in their own standing with their
parents.

>>> I think having my daughters witness me working and being able to
help support our family financially is very important. I grew up with a
stay at home mother and was always taken care of financially. Even
though I know I was very fortunate I don't think it was the best
thing.>>>

Well, I grew up with a mom that for most of my childhood was a stay at
home mom, and we were financially taken care of. It's a gift that a
family can give their children. I could go out tomorrow and get a job
and prove to my kids that I can support myself financially, but I don't
think they'd like that very much, because they like having me here
helping them. That is my job. We've found ways to afford things we
want and need on one income.

>>>In fact, I requested no gifts for my daughter's birthdays last year
since they have more material things than they will ever need/use. I
explained to Anna that having people take the time to celebrate the day
with her was what was important and special, not the gift they bring.>>>

Why does a gift have to be something that's a material object only used
a little bit? One of Chamille's long time friends has always given her
very unusual gifts, odd balls, a yard pinwheel, a sunshine plant
decoration, a poster, just to name a few of the more interesting ones.
We still have and use all of those gifts and some of them were given
many many years ago.

The thing is, gifts are just that, gifts, things given from the heart
from one person to another. Who are we to dictate to another how or
what they choose to give from their heart, to an individual they care
about? Sure some gifts have been more used than others, and some things
have been given away, but there is nothing wrong with that.


> >>I think the beauty of unschooling is that each family can do it the
way that works best for them.>>>

Of course every family will do things differently, and do what works
best for them, but not everything will help unschooling work best.

>>> I realize I have made some choices that limit being able to fully
unschool, but I believe it will still be successful because I am open
and committed to doing it.>>>


Some things will make it easier and some things will make it harder.
You are already struggling with a few basic things that conflict with
something really big in your life that you are unwilling to consider
letting go.

There will be many many things that you will come across that will help
or hinder. If you really want unschooling to be successful, you'll try
to always go with what helps, and really minimize what hinders.

I'm not saying you have to stop doing your daycare, but there may come a
time when operating a daycare is hindering instead of helping, and it
will help tremendously if you feel you have a choice to let it go.
There are enough folks here on this list that have dabbled in childcare,
or are currently doing childcare for other people's children, for
whatever reason, and there are very big definite minuses in doing that.

Jennifer Croce

Thank you to everyone for the advice and support, I have learned a lot from this list.  I have come to the conclusion that I am not cut out for the unschooling lifestyle since my beliefs and choices don't coincide with what I am learning are the fundamentals of unschooling.  Due to the guidelines and purpose of this list I am not able to fully explain or clarify my situation or correct the statements that are incorrect in regards to my posts.  I have learned that my homeschooling style is more eclectic since I will take some of the principals of unschooling and some from other approachs.   
 
Thanks,
Jen  




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Sandra Dodd

-=-My experience says kids handle mom
being unavailable for a few hours much easier than a half available mom
that is there all the time.-=-

Yes. If the idea is to help the kids learn about the realities of
making money, psychotherapy a few hours a week would make more money
and keep the mom from needing to say "no, not now" repeatedly, nearly
daily.

It would provide more chances to say yes.

http://sandradodd.com/yes

-=-The thing is, gifts are just that, gifts, things given from the heart
from one person to another. Who are we to dictate to another how or
what they choose to give from their heart, to an individual they care
about? Sure some gifts have been more used than others, and some things
have been given away, but there is nothing wrong with that.-=-

When I first read the decision/policy not to have gifts for the girls'
birthdays, I thought it was way too controlling. Now that I see it as
a move to control not just the girls but everyone who knows them, I'm
reminded of this:

http://sandradodd.com/control

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Due to the guidelines and purpose of this list I am not able to
fully explain or clarify my situation or correct the statements that
are incorrect in regards to my posts.-=-

The purpose of the list is not to fully explain ANY situation,
necessarily. It's to discuss ideas. This isn't news to those on the
list, nor to those who do a little research about lists they join.
It's not a policy intended to mar or inconvenience anyone's life.

I'd like to thank those who do understand it and who have helped so
many others over the years.

If a person wants to talk about what can make unschooling better, I
don't think there's a better place in all the world than this list.

When a person wants to lay out and hash through the details of
situations in her life that don't have to do with unschooling, that
should be done with a friend or with a counsellor.

We can't be everything to everyone, but if we stay on topic, we can be
something wonderful to very many people.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Clarification:

I wrote -=-The purpose of the list is not to fully explain ANY
situation,
necessarily. It's to discuss ideas. This isn't news to those on the
list, nor to those who do a little research about lists they join.
It's not a policy intended to mar or inconvenience anyone's life.-=-

I meant that it's not news to those who have been on the list a long
time, nor to those who do research lists they join.

It might be news to people who are new to the list.


When someone posts something right after they join I might write a
note explaining why it's not appropriate, if it's not sent on through
to the list. That doesn't mean I want to have a lengthy e-mail
exchange with the person, it means it's less work for me to write 100
words than for 500 people to read 400 words.

Sandra




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Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< -=-Due to the guidelines and purpose of this list I am not able to
> fully explain or clarify my situation or correct the statements that
> are incorrect in regards to my posts.->>>>>

The purpose of this list is to discuss unschooling - with the intention of
practicing unschooling.

It just doesn't work very well here on this list to express a problem,
refuse to consider any of the solutions offered, and then blame us for not
understanding the problem. I think we probably all understood it
immediately. I thought the statements in the posts were very clear.

Her 2 1/2 year old needs more of her focus. She wants to keep on putting her
focus elsewhere and be given some kind of strategies for doing that and
feeling better about what she knows in her heart (or she wouldn't have made
the OP) was the wrong way to handle things. She also wants to keep
controlling trivia. She wanted to share what she considered good reasons,
that sounded to me (and probably some others here) like blatant
justifications.

I have several people in my life who I am so grateful to because they do
call me on my BS (no laziness, concious vocabulary choice). One of them is
my dh. He can spot my denial as if it is a neon sign.

Every time I have posted here about a problem I am having , I get different
perspectives that allow me to reexamine my thinking, to get past where I am
stuck. Rarely it happens that I come back to deciding I was right; more
often I end up seeing my own errors. Way more often.

There is one thing that Jen said more than once that keeps coming back to
me. She was expecting encouragment for only having her daycare open during
school hours. Plus she said her charges were age peers for her 2 1/2 year
old, so toddlers and preschoolers.

Well I think she'd be better off, *if she wants to move towards
unschooling*, running instead an after school hours, homework support
daycare, for three hours or so with middle schoolers, who would come to her
after school, eat a snack and play in the backyard for half an hour or so,
and then sit down and do their homework, probably needing little assistance
(and they could probably help each other much of the time). Then when their
parents came by to pick them up after work at 5.45 those families would be
able to spend all evening reconnecting with each other, instead of
supervising homework. The little one (and her others too no doubt) would
love having mom's attention all day, and probably enjoy the attention of the
slightly older kids, and might even nap for some of that time.

Just in case she's still reading, that's my one possibly useful suggestion.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com