research support
Michelle Miller
Hello!
My name is Michelle and I'm new to this list. I've been (mostly)
unschooling for 15 years (I have 15 y.o and 10 y.o daughters). I'm needing
support right now in finding research on learning and outcomes of
unschoolers for my husband.
He recently decided to become a teacher (gasp!) and is taking on all the
reading and "how" learning takes place best from his texts. He is freaking
out about how we've "taught" our kids and worried about their success in the
bigger world (despite the fact they test at and above age level and always
have). I want to be able to counter some of his points about learning and
how it "best" takes place. He is a very analytical guy and if I can come
back to him with some concrete facts and figures, then I feel I have a
fighting chance.
Do any of you know of research out there that shows outcomes of unschoolers,
or at least homeschoolers? Research about alternative learning - not the
standard mainstream curriculum?
Any information would be exceedingly helpful.
Thank you,
Michelle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My name is Michelle and I'm new to this list. I've been (mostly)
unschooling for 15 years (I have 15 y.o and 10 y.o daughters). I'm needing
support right now in finding research on learning and outcomes of
unschoolers for my husband.
He recently decided to become a teacher (gasp!) and is taking on all the
reading and "how" learning takes place best from his texts. He is freaking
out about how we've "taught" our kids and worried about their success in the
bigger world (despite the fact they test at and above age level and always
have). I want to be able to counter some of his points about learning and
how it "best" takes place. He is a very analytical guy and if I can come
back to him with some concrete facts and figures, then I feel I have a
fighting chance.
Do any of you know of research out there that shows outcomes of unschoolers,
or at least homeschoolers? Research about alternative learning - not the
standard mainstream curriculum?
Any information would be exceedingly helpful.
Thank you,
Michelle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I've been (mostly)
unschooling for 15 years (I have 15 y.o and 10 y.o daughters). I'm
needing
support right now in finding research on learning and outcomes of
unschoolers for my husband.-=-
This part is important to me:
If your oldest is 15, you have been doing something since she was old
enough to be required by law to go to school, at 5 or 6 or 7. So
let's say you've been doing something for 10 years. What is "mostly
unschooling"?
The reason I've stopped you at the door this way is that there are
hundreds of readers and I don't want a single one of them to get the
wrong impression about how easy it is to unschool or what "mostly
unschooling" might look like up against dedicated unquestioned
unschooling.
Do you mean you used to not unschool but then you changed and so for
some part of those ten years you've been absolutely unschooling?
Or do you mean that for ten or fifteen years you've never quite wholly
unschooled?
I can vouch for the alchemy that comes about once a family truly lives
an unschooling life. The arguments won't hold, though, if in your
family you've been testing your kids, and still your husband doesn't
understand it well enough not to be a critical judge of what he's
reading in the college of education.
-=-Do any of you know of research out there that shows outcomes of
unschoolers,
or at least homeschoolers? Research about alternative learning - not the
standard mainstream curriculum?
-=-
You can look in these places:
http://sandradodd.com/research
http://unschooling.blogspot.com
Also, for him, http://sandradodd.com/johnholt
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling for 15 years (I have 15 y.o and 10 y.o daughters). I'm
needing
support right now in finding research on learning and outcomes of
unschoolers for my husband.-=-
This part is important to me:
If your oldest is 15, you have been doing something since she was old
enough to be required by law to go to school, at 5 or 6 or 7. So
let's say you've been doing something for 10 years. What is "mostly
unschooling"?
The reason I've stopped you at the door this way is that there are
hundreds of readers and I don't want a single one of them to get the
wrong impression about how easy it is to unschool or what "mostly
unschooling" might look like up against dedicated unquestioned
unschooling.
Do you mean you used to not unschool but then you changed and so for
some part of those ten years you've been absolutely unschooling?
Or do you mean that for ten or fifteen years you've never quite wholly
unschooled?
I can vouch for the alchemy that comes about once a family truly lives
an unschooling life. The arguments won't hold, though, if in your
family you've been testing your kids, and still your husband doesn't
understand it well enough not to be a critical judge of what he's
reading in the college of education.
-=-Do any of you know of research out there that shows outcomes of
unschoolers,
or at least homeschoolers? Research about alternative learning - not the
standard mainstream curriculum?
-=-
You can look in these places:
http://sandradodd.com/research
http://unschooling.blogspot.com
Also, for him, http://sandradodd.com/johnholt
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ward Family
Hi Michelle,
You said:
Do any of you know of research out there that shows outcomes of unschoolers, or at least homeschoolers? Research about alternative learning - not the standard mainstream curriculum?
The research I am referring you to is noit about outcomes but reveals a gap in research that might get your parthner thinking.
The research done by Alan Thomas and Harriet Pattison - see http://www.howchildrenlearnathome.co.uk/ to get you on the track.
To quote briefly from the site "Our aim is not to criticise schools or to advocate home education to families. Our interest lies purely in how children learn for themselves: what things they are interested in and why, and how they then go about exploring them."
Cheers,
Julie Ward
New Zealand
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You said:
Do any of you know of research out there that shows outcomes of unschoolers, or at least homeschoolers? Research about alternative learning - not the standard mainstream curriculum?
The research I am referring you to is noit about outcomes but reveals a gap in research that might get your parthner thinking.
The research done by Alan Thomas and Harriet Pattison - see http://www.howchildrenlearnathome.co.uk/ to get you on the track.
To quote briefly from the site "Our aim is not to criticise schools or to advocate home education to families. Our interest lies purely in how children learn for themselves: what things they are interested in and why, and how they then go about exploring them."
Cheers,
Julie Ward
New Zealand
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Paula Rothermel at the University of Durham has done research into home education that includes autonomous education approaches (the UK's closest equivalent to unschooling) in the analyses http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.rothermel/. She home-educates her children, or at least she has in the past so her research begins with that bias. There is an article here: http://www.infed.org/biblio/home-education.htm that has lots of citations that might help you to do further research. I got that article from a blogpost at Dare to Know: http://daretoknowblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/autonomous-education-works.html. She has some ideas about why someone looking to research to justify an autonomous approach (again, the UK's closest equivalent to unschooling) might have a hard time doing so.
There isn't a lot of research directly on alternative approaches to home-education. There isn't any real reason to examine such a small subset of the population. It isn't something for which funding is readily available so anyone approaching it would have to be doing it for personal reasons as much as for any other reason. That means for you that you will never have more research behind an unschooling approach than he will have behind a more traditional education approach. It means that you can't win if you see it as a fight.
The way a list like this works is by amassing a lot of personal experience and sharing it. It is anecdotal evidence, but in huge numbers. The way unschooling often works to comfort the partner who is less confident about it as a means to educate his or her children is by being this amazing relationship builder. It helps a lot if you have helped your partner to feel involved in his children's lives. Talking about things that they've done, keeping a journal or a blog, those kinds of daily stories that talk about a rich and engaging life make a huge difference in the way someone who is less integrally involved in the day-to-day can see it all unfolding.
I am guessing that your husband is really excited by all that he is reading and doing. He is so excited at the different pedagogical approaches to knowledge transfer (I love that piece of jargon that is used in universities in the UK, they don't call it teaching they call it knowledge transfer) and he wants so very much to enrich his children's lives. And to protect them from failure as adults. He wants them to do well and believes that the evidence he is finding argues that the best outcome will come from a more traditional approach to knowledge transfer. One thing that might make a huge difference in how he sees unschooling is going to an unschooling conference. Seeing families interacting with their children and children interacting within their families, it is so amazing. Listening to people talk about unschooling and talk about how it works in their households, seeing it as a working, applied approach to education, it is a powerful thing. There are
a lot about these days, there might be one around the corner from you. And if you are like us, you can travel. We're flying from the UK to Sea-Tac this year to go to Life is Good in Vancouver, Washington. As well as taking the train to a conference in London.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Michelle Miller <michelle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 30 March, 2009 10:36:18 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] research support
Hello!
My name is Michelle and I'm new to this list. I've been (mostly)
unschooling for 15 years (I have 15 y.o and 10 y.o daughters). I'm needing
support right now in finding research on learning and outcomes of
unschoolers for my husband.
He recently decided to become a teacher (gasp!) and is taking on all the
reading and "how" learning takes place best from his texts. He is freaking
out about how we've "taught" our kids and worried about their success in the
bigger world (despite the fact they test at and above age level and always
have). I want to be able to counter some of his points about learning and
how it "best" takes place. He is a very analytical guy and if I can come
back to him with some concrete facts and figures, then I feel I have a
fighting chance.
Do any of you know of research out there that shows outcomes of unschoolers,
or at least homeschoolers? Research about alternative learning - not the
standard mainstream curriculum?
Any information would be exceedingly helpful.
Thank you,
Michelle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There isn't a lot of research directly on alternative approaches to home-education. There isn't any real reason to examine such a small subset of the population. It isn't something for which funding is readily available so anyone approaching it would have to be doing it for personal reasons as much as for any other reason. That means for you that you will never have more research behind an unschooling approach than he will have behind a more traditional education approach. It means that you can't win if you see it as a fight.
The way a list like this works is by amassing a lot of personal experience and sharing it. It is anecdotal evidence, but in huge numbers. The way unschooling often works to comfort the partner who is less confident about it as a means to educate his or her children is by being this amazing relationship builder. It helps a lot if you have helped your partner to feel involved in his children's lives. Talking about things that they've done, keeping a journal or a blog, those kinds of daily stories that talk about a rich and engaging life make a huge difference in the way someone who is less integrally involved in the day-to-day can see it all unfolding.
I am guessing that your husband is really excited by all that he is reading and doing. He is so excited at the different pedagogical approaches to knowledge transfer (I love that piece of jargon that is used in universities in the UK, they don't call it teaching they call it knowledge transfer) and he wants so very much to enrich his children's lives. And to protect them from failure as adults. He wants them to do well and believes that the evidence he is finding argues that the best outcome will come from a more traditional approach to knowledge transfer. One thing that might make a huge difference in how he sees unschooling is going to an unschooling conference. Seeing families interacting with their children and children interacting within their families, it is so amazing. Listening to people talk about unschooling and talk about how it works in their households, seeing it as a working, applied approach to education, it is a powerful thing. There are
a lot about these days, there might be one around the corner from you. And if you are like us, you can travel. We're flying from the UK to Sea-Tac this year to go to Life is Good in Vancouver, Washington. As well as taking the train to a conference in London.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Michelle Miller <michelle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 30 March, 2009 10:36:18 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] research support
Hello!
My name is Michelle and I'm new to this list. I've been (mostly)
unschooling for 15 years (I have 15 y.o and 10 y.o daughters). I'm needing
support right now in finding research on learning and outcomes of
unschoolers for my husband.
He recently decided to become a teacher (gasp!) and is taking on all the
reading and "how" learning takes place best from his texts. He is freaking
out about how we've "taught" our kids and worried about their success in the
bigger world (despite the fact they test at and above age level and always
have). I want to be able to counter some of his points about learning and
how it "best" takes place. He is a very analytical guy and if I can come
back to him with some concrete facts and figures, then I feel I have a
fighting chance.
Do any of you know of research out there that shows outcomes of unschoolers,
or at least homeschoolers? Research about alternative learning - not the
standard mainstream curriculum?
Any information would be exceedingly helpful.
Thank you,
Michelle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jimi Ann
Hello everyone. I just joined this group and am very ignorant concerning unschooling. We're a family of six and have always homeschooled, except one year, when my two oldest were in a church school.
I have read John Holt's book years ago, but didn't really implement anything in it, at least, not on purpose. We have vacillated between being structured and totally not-structured and anywhere in between, depending on the year, new babies, etc.
I find that if we have no structure, our day falls apart, the children become unruly, and the chaos drives me crazy. Does unschooling necessarily mean unstructured? What do some of your days look like? Just trying to find a better way! :)
Jimi Ann
I have read John Holt's book years ago, but didn't really implement anything in it, at least, not on purpose. We have vacillated between being structured and totally not-structured and anywhere in between, depending on the year, new babies, etc.
I find that if we have no structure, our day falls apart, the children become unruly, and the chaos drives me crazy. Does unschooling necessarily mean unstructured? What do some of your days look like? Just trying to find a better way! :)
Jimi Ann
diana jenner
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Jimi Ann <jimi.jane@...> wrote:
We don't have/need a whole lot of arbitrary structure, though our lives have
a nice rhythm to the days. Only as much chaos as we can take ;)
There are many many examples of vastly different typical days at:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
and there are many of us who keep blogs, usually adding the address in our
signatures. Blogs are a great way to peek into unschooling life, to quell
some of those fears.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Hello everyone. I just joined this group and am very ignorant concerning-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> unschooling. We're a family of six and have always homeschooled, except one
> year, when my two oldest were in a church school.
>
> I have read John Holt's book years ago, but didn't really implement
> anything in it, at least, not on purpose. We have vacillated between being
> structured and totally not-structured and anywhere in between, depending on
> the year, new babies, etc.
>
> I find that if we have no structure, our day falls apart, the children
> become unruly, and the chaos drives me crazy. Does unschooling necessarily
> mean unstructured? What do some of your days look like? Just trying to find
> a better way! :)
>
We don't have/need a whole lot of arbitrary structure, though our lives have
a nice rhythm to the days. Only as much chaos as we can take ;)
There are many many examples of vastly different typical days at:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
and there are many of us who keep blogs, usually adding the address in our
signatures. Blogs are a great way to peek into unschooling life, to quell
some of those fears.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-We have vacillated between being structured and totally not-
structured and anywhere in between, depending on the year, new babies,
etc.-=-
Unschooling starts to work several months AFTER people stop
vascillating. If you were travelling the world but you didn't know
where you wanted to go, you wouldn't ever get there. So if you want
unschooling (and it's definitely a thing worth wanting), what helps is
looking at your own decisions each time you make one. And start
learning to make decisions. People think they know that, but it turns
out they can put themselves in an automatic "have to" mode and go for
days without deciding ANYthing.
So start to see your life as a series of decisions, and then give
yourself options. Think of two things before you move or speak or
do. Then do the one that will take you closer to good relationships
and natural learning.
While this is happening, let your children do what they want to.
Focus on your own actions and reactions, and move toward more
conscious thought and conscious living.
-=-I find that if we have no structure, our day falls apart, the
children become unruly, and the chaos drives me crazy. -=-
"Unruly."
Can you rephrase that?
"Chaos."
What would be the opposite of that, for you, in that picture in your
head?
Lots of unschoolers days are described here:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
structured and anywhere in between, depending on the year, new babies,
etc.-=-
Unschooling starts to work several months AFTER people stop
vascillating. If you were travelling the world but you didn't know
where you wanted to go, you wouldn't ever get there. So if you want
unschooling (and it's definitely a thing worth wanting), what helps is
looking at your own decisions each time you make one. And start
learning to make decisions. People think they know that, but it turns
out they can put themselves in an automatic "have to" mode and go for
days without deciding ANYthing.
So start to see your life as a series of decisions, and then give
yourself options. Think of two things before you move or speak or
do. Then do the one that will take you closer to good relationships
and natural learning.
While this is happening, let your children do what they want to.
Focus on your own actions and reactions, and move toward more
conscious thought and conscious living.
-=-I find that if we have no structure, our day falls apart, the
children become unruly, and the chaos drives me crazy. -=-
"Unruly."
Can you rephrase that?
"Chaos."
What would be the opposite of that, for you, in that picture in your
head?
Lots of unschoolers days are described here:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>>>> I find that if we have no structure, our day falls apart, thechildren become unruly, and the chaos drives me crazy. Does unschooling
necessarily mean unstructured? What do some of your days look like? Just
trying to find a better way! :) >>>
>What do you consider to be "structure"? Sometimes, what a parent thinks
is structure, used to aleviate chaos, is little more than bossing the
kids around and telling them what to do and when to eat. If by
structure, you mean, a framework of your days, that will be a very
different picture, and one that will look different for every family.
Jimi Ann
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
My girl is opposite and very easy. She will occupy herself with constructive and productive choices all day, learning along the way.
Jimi Ann
>What I mean by unruly is just the hyperness and loudness of the three boys. I know this is normal for boys -- especially little ones - but it seems that if I don't have something for them to do every minute of the day, they drive everyone else crazy with their wild behavior. This isn't an obedience issue, meaning it's not rebelliousness -- just a lack of self-government, I believe would be the best way to describe it.
> "Unruly."
> Can you rephrase that?
>
My girl is opposite and very easy. She will occupy herself with constructive and productive choices all day, learning along the way.
> "Chaos."Opposite of chaos, to me, would be everyone engaged in productive activities (reading, writing, woodworking, gardening, baking, etc.), while I could move around freely and discuss with them what they're doing, having meaningful conversations. This may not be realistic, but opposite of chaos would also mean, to me, no yelling, shouting, stomping or screaming (the boys' favorite activities, it seems). I realize they're boys and this is natural -- I just grew up with ALL girls, no boys, not even a father in the house, and two of my boys' temperaments run counter to everything in me. It's especially difficult when it's been raining outside, on and off, for nearly two weeks. Thanks for listening. :) And thanks for the website about the days of unschoolers; I'm sure that will help.
> What would be the opposite of that, for you, in that picture in your
> head?
Jimi Ann
>
>
> Lots of unschoolers days are described here:
> http://sandradodd.com/typical
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Melissa Wiley
>Rhythm is the word I think of, too, that gives some form to our lives
> We don't have/need a whole lot of arbitrary structure, though our lives
> have
> a nice rhythm to the days.
without being binding or limiting. With a combination of big kids and little
kids/babies in our family, our days fall into a natural rhythm involving
meals, naps, and out-of-the-house activities, but there isn't a fixed or
rigid routine that must be followed at all costs. We can change the beat as
needed.
For example, my kids like to eat breakfast before my husband leaves for
work, because he's busy in the kitchen for a while making his coffee and
such, and they like to spend that chunk of time with him before he's gone
for the day. You could look at us from the outside and say, "Wow, your
family eats breakfast at 8am every day, that's really structured!"--but it
isn't a *required* structure, and it's no big deal if someone feels like
sleeping later, or is lying in bed reading a book instead of eating
breakfast at that time of day. (Well, it might be a big deal if *I* did
that, because it would be hard for my hubby to get ready for work AND meet
all the needs of the 5yo, the 2yo, and the baby while I was snoozing!) The
kids are free to start the day off as they wish, and it happens that they
usually all wish to be in the kitchen with daddy at that time of day.
I think rhythm can be organic, a pattern that grows out of what suits your
family's needs and preferences, but it need not be inflexible or binding.
Rhythm can be nice and comfortable, and comforting (especially, I think, for
very young children). But even though our days have a general rhythm, I
don't think any one day is exactly like any other, and the cadences can
always change.
Lissa in San Diego, mom of six
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Try this video about the different kinds of play and their importance
in learning and development: http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/483
in learning and development: http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/483
k
Oops.. I meant to put the link (http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/483)
in response to the comment Jimi Ann made about chaos.
~Katherine
in response to the comment Jimi Ann made about chaos.
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-This isn't an obedience issue, meaning it's not rebelliousness --
just a lack of self-government-=-
Please read here:
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation
It's a hard idea to get, but getting away from "control" and
"government" and "regulation" altogether can put you in a place where
there's nothing lift but choices, and that's the place to be for
unschooling.
Living by principles keeps anyone from needing to "govern" anyone else
(including themselves).
http://sandradodd.com/rules
-=My girl is opposite and very easy. She will occupy herself with
constructive and productive choices all day, learning along the way.-=-
"Easy" isn't always best for unschooling. As you move more into
seeing what learning can look like in a really busy life, you might
see things like "constructive" and "productive" in new ways!
Something can be learned during a busy "chaotic" moment that lasts for
a lifetime, and a solid hour of what might be called constructive and
productive might not yield any learning. That's fine, because
there's more to life than learning all the time, but if you can change
the angle from which you see all these little things, you'll see more
and more learning all the time.
-=-Opposite of chaos, to me, would be everyone engaged in productive
activities (reading, writing, woodworking, gardening, baking, etc.),
while I could move around freely and discuss with them what they're
doing, having meaningful conversations.-=-
Sounds like a really cool classroom. Up to the "while I could move
around freely" it sounded like a cool unschooling day!
Finding things to do with one or more of the kids will work better
than hoping they'll each find a separate thing to do that you can
check on and encourage.
Meaningful conversations can happen in and around all that.
http://sandradodd.com/truck
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
just a lack of self-government-=-
Please read here:
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation
It's a hard idea to get, but getting away from "control" and
"government" and "regulation" altogether can put you in a place where
there's nothing lift but choices, and that's the place to be for
unschooling.
Living by principles keeps anyone from needing to "govern" anyone else
(including themselves).
http://sandradodd.com/rules
-=My girl is opposite and very easy. She will occupy herself with
constructive and productive choices all day, learning along the way.-=-
"Easy" isn't always best for unschooling. As you move more into
seeing what learning can look like in a really busy life, you might
see things like "constructive" and "productive" in new ways!
Something can be learned during a busy "chaotic" moment that lasts for
a lifetime, and a solid hour of what might be called constructive and
productive might not yield any learning. That's fine, because
there's more to life than learning all the time, but if you can change
the angle from which you see all these little things, you'll see more
and more learning all the time.
-=-Opposite of chaos, to me, would be everyone engaged in productive
activities (reading, writing, woodworking, gardening, baking, etc.),
while I could move around freely and discuss with them what they're
doing, having meaningful conversations.-=-
Sounds like a really cool classroom. Up to the "while I could move
around freely" it sounded like a cool unschooling day!
Finding things to do with one or more of the kids will work better
than hoping they'll each find a separate thing to do that you can
check on and encourage.
Meaningful conversations can happen in and around all that.
http://sandradodd.com/truck
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jimi Ann
Thanks for your encouragement. It was prob. at least 8 or 9 years ago when I read one of John Holt's book, and I dont' really remember much of it. I just checked at our local library and they have 3 copies -- looks like we're going today!
I feel like on the beginning of our homeschool journey, we did lean more toward unschooling. I don't know what happened. I think I got fearful of the government checking up on us, etc. My homeschooling neighbor had Social Services come to her door questioning, and that made me want to be more formal with schooling in case that happened to us.
The control issue is a big one, too, like you mentioned Sandra. It's so difficult to let go and trust that they'll learn in spite of me! But, compared to the average homeschooler, we would be seen as too relaxed, as I've been told by well-meaning people. We just didn't finish going in the right direction far enough!
Anyway, thanks for the tips -- I'm going to reread them all, and am checking on the websites you all mentioned, as well as re-reading John Holt's book. My week is planned! lol. I'll let you know how it goes. :) Jimi Ann
I feel like on the beginning of our homeschool journey, we did lean more toward unschooling. I don't know what happened. I think I got fearful of the government checking up on us, etc. My homeschooling neighbor had Social Services come to her door questioning, and that made me want to be more formal with schooling in case that happened to us.
The control issue is a big one, too, like you mentioned Sandra. It's so difficult to let go and trust that they'll learn in spite of me! But, compared to the average homeschooler, we would be seen as too relaxed, as I've been told by well-meaning people. We just didn't finish going in the right direction far enough!
Anyway, thanks for the tips -- I'm going to reread them all, and am checking on the websites you all mentioned, as well as re-reading John Holt's book. My week is planned! lol. I'll let you know how it goes. :) Jimi Ann
Jenny C
>activities (reading, writing, woodworking, gardening, baking, etc.),
>>> Opposite of chaos, to me, would be everyone engaged in productive
while I could move around freely and discuss with them what they're
doing, having meaningful conversations. >>>
I'm glad you went on to say that it might not be realistic, because your
house may never look like that! Try not to have preconceived notions of
everyone engaged in productive (in your eyes) activities. Playing
barbies and spreading them out all over the entire living room floor,
for a kid, could be a very productive endeavor! Spending almost the
entire day online, is a very productive endeavor for my older daughter!
>>>This may not be realistic, but opposite of chaos would also mean, tome, no yelling, shouting, stomping or screaming (the boys' favorite
activities, it seems). I realize they're boys and this is natural -- >>>
Read this, it really helped me see that loud crazy stuff differently!
http://sandradodd.com/peace/noisy <http://sandradodd.com/peace/noisy>
I don't have boys, but I do have one very spirited daughter and one very
quiet daughter. My quiet one came first, so adapting to a not so quiet
one, took different parenting skills and a different frame of reference!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Verna
> What I mean by unruly is just the hyperness and loudness of the three boys. I know this is normal for boys -- especially little ones - but it seems that if I don't have something for them to do every minute of the day, they drive everyone else crazy with their wild behavior. This isn't an obedience issue, meaning it's not rebelliousness -- just a lack of self-government, I believe would be the best way to describe it.I have days when this bothers me too. My oldest boy (7) likes things to be exciting. My children tend to run in a pack. Occasionally, finding something to do on their own but for the most part, everyone clamoring to be involved in whatever one has thought off. My oldest sees himself as their captain, and likes things to be stirred up and loud. He likes to make loud noises, throw things around and get everybody involved, run, play fight, etc.. My daughter joins right in.
>
> My girl is opposite and very easy. She will occupy herself with constructive and productive choices all day, learning along the way.
>
On days this seems to occur the most, seem to be the days a nice trip to the park, pool, gym etc.. are in order.
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/1/2009 10:17 AM, Jimi Ann wrote:
rambunctious and high energy. VERY!!! When she was two years old, we
were at an outdoor picnic/barbeque and a father of many ( I've
forgotten, but I think they had 12 kids) said to ME, "Boy, you have your
hands full with her."
So - it might be more common for boys to be physically active and high
energy like that, but it isn't only boys.
I think the self-government (and unruly) phrasing gives something away
here, that the op might not be aware of. I think you're thinking of the
daughter as BEING self-government and "ruly" - but, no, it is just her
own nature to be quieter, less physical, more project-oriented, and
therefore "easier." She isn't having to "govern" herself - she IS the
way she is.
So - you're really expecting something from the other kids that you are
NOT expecting or seeing in her. You're expecting kids with tons of
energy, very physical kids, to act like one who isn't like that by nature.
Some kids need a whole lot more physical activity than others - they
need parents to provide a lot more things for them to do. They need you
to even get out there and play those physical things with them.
Maybe you could take them to a nearby playground for several hours every
day.
A Wii and a balance board could be very very fun for them. Rock band?
A trampoline in the back yard? Big playset with swings and a slide, etc?
A ping pong table?
Skateboards and ramps? Building materials? A pool? A soccer goal and
ball? Basketball hoop in the driveway?
tetherball pole/rope/ball? A dog? <G>
-pam
> What I mean by unruly is just the hyperness and loudness of the three boys. I know this is normal for boys -- especially little ones - but it seems that if I don't have something for them to do every minute of the day, they drive everyone else crazy with their wild behavior. This isn't an obedience issue, meaning it's not rebelliousness -- just a lack of self-government, I believe would be the best way to describe it.First, I had a girl who is like you describe your boys - very
>
> My girl is opposite and very easy. She will occupy herself with constructive and productive choices all day, learning along the way.
>
rambunctious and high energy. VERY!!! When she was two years old, we
were at an outdoor picnic/barbeque and a father of many ( I've
forgotten, but I think they had 12 kids) said to ME, "Boy, you have your
hands full with her."
So - it might be more common for boys to be physically active and high
energy like that, but it isn't only boys.
I think the self-government (and unruly) phrasing gives something away
here, that the op might not be aware of. I think you're thinking of the
daughter as BEING self-government and "ruly" - but, no, it is just her
own nature to be quieter, less physical, more project-oriented, and
therefore "easier." She isn't having to "govern" herself - she IS the
way she is.
So - you're really expecting something from the other kids that you are
NOT expecting or seeing in her. You're expecting kids with tons of
energy, very physical kids, to act like one who isn't like that by nature.
Some kids need a whole lot more physical activity than others - they
need parents to provide a lot more things for them to do. They need you
to even get out there and play those physical things with them.
Maybe you could take them to a nearby playground for several hours every
day.
A Wii and a balance board could be very very fun for them. Rock band?
A trampoline in the back yard? Big playset with swings and a slide, etc?
A ping pong table?
Skateboards and ramps? Building materials? A pool? A soccer goal and
ball? Basketball hoop in the driveway?
tetherball pole/rope/ball? A dog? <G>
-pam
Jimi Ann
Thank you so much, Pam, for that very much needed perspective. The part about her not having to govern herself, that she IS the way she is, rings so true to my ears. And yes, expectations. That's a biggie for me. I need to re-read a book I got several years ago called "Slowing Down to the Speed of Life." I had forgotten about that.
With my family's background, and the paths we've pursued in the past, we need a lot undoing. My childhood was pretty much in the unschooling way of things, as far as lots of freedom, no expectations, etc. But along with that came neglect and very little to no parental direction, as there were usually no adults in the home.
Because of that, and my bad choices in my 20's (By the way, Sandra, I also attended Al-Anon meetings and learned a lot. We added S to the end of HALT, for Sick -- meaning physically sick)... Anyway, I was drawn to very structured environments, because of the lack of any kind of structure whatsoever in my childhood. I had felt very lonely and isolated. From that, I believe, is where I developed a great desire for structure and control.
We've just come out from what I call "our mennonite adventure," and we joined and lived among a strict group of mennonites (like the Amish but still drive cars). Mine and my husband's deep Christian beliefs (not mainstream, and it prob. doesn't look much like Christianity as the average American Christian sees it -- although that's ok however one chooses to believe, I just say this to give you perspective on us), my stance on non-resistance, among many other things led us that way. Also the simpler lifestyle, getting rid of a lot of needless things, and moving away from the world of affluence voluntarily -- also led us to the mennonites.
Well, we were very stifled and came to realize we can still have these beliefs, practice these principles in our own way, without being with the mennonites. Sounds like a no-brainer now, but we didn't see it then. We were where we were.
The children being in the one-room schoolhouse (just like the Amish) seemed so carefree and a such a beautiful alternative. They had 3 recesses a day, never assigned homework, and were not so heavy on the academics. But despite all these seemingly wonderful things, it was a real eye-opener. It was the first time they had ever been in school, and the last.
I don't know how much any of you know about the conservative branches of mennonites, but they are very controlling. We've been out of that setting coming up on a year now, and my shoulders are starting to relax a bit. This is prob. more than you wanted to know, but I feel by sharing it, it would help people here see where I'm coming from.
One more thing, I think I'm having a great unschooling day today! ALthough it is a little by default. I developed a fever lastnight over 102, and my throat was "closing up" and I had a hard time swallowing. I feel a little better today, but this has truly been a blessing in disguise, in that the children are leading themselves today. I did have a chance to pick up 2 books from the library yesterday before I felt too ill -- one on unschooling by Mary Griffith, and one by John Holt, which I am devouring and already putting some of it into practice. The fact that I can barely talk above a whisper is a real blessing in that it's difficult to control things without a voice! LOL. So I'm grateful that I got sick. :) Maybe I will chronicle our day after the day is done, if anyone is interested. You can tell me if you think we're making progress or not and give me helpful hints and insights if you like.
Thanks again for all of your great insights. Pam, you hit the nail right on the head, I believe.
Jimi Ann
With my family's background, and the paths we've pursued in the past, we need a lot undoing. My childhood was pretty much in the unschooling way of things, as far as lots of freedom, no expectations, etc. But along with that came neglect and very little to no parental direction, as there were usually no adults in the home.
Because of that, and my bad choices in my 20's (By the way, Sandra, I also attended Al-Anon meetings and learned a lot. We added S to the end of HALT, for Sick -- meaning physically sick)... Anyway, I was drawn to very structured environments, because of the lack of any kind of structure whatsoever in my childhood. I had felt very lonely and isolated. From that, I believe, is where I developed a great desire for structure and control.
We've just come out from what I call "our mennonite adventure," and we joined and lived among a strict group of mennonites (like the Amish but still drive cars). Mine and my husband's deep Christian beliefs (not mainstream, and it prob. doesn't look much like Christianity as the average American Christian sees it -- although that's ok however one chooses to believe, I just say this to give you perspective on us), my stance on non-resistance, among many other things led us that way. Also the simpler lifestyle, getting rid of a lot of needless things, and moving away from the world of affluence voluntarily -- also led us to the mennonites.
Well, we were very stifled and came to realize we can still have these beliefs, practice these principles in our own way, without being with the mennonites. Sounds like a no-brainer now, but we didn't see it then. We were where we were.
The children being in the one-room schoolhouse (just like the Amish) seemed so carefree and a such a beautiful alternative. They had 3 recesses a day, never assigned homework, and were not so heavy on the academics. But despite all these seemingly wonderful things, it was a real eye-opener. It was the first time they had ever been in school, and the last.
I don't know how much any of you know about the conservative branches of mennonites, but they are very controlling. We've been out of that setting coming up on a year now, and my shoulders are starting to relax a bit. This is prob. more than you wanted to know, but I feel by sharing it, it would help people here see where I'm coming from.
One more thing, I think I'm having a great unschooling day today! ALthough it is a little by default. I developed a fever lastnight over 102, and my throat was "closing up" and I had a hard time swallowing. I feel a little better today, but this has truly been a blessing in disguise, in that the children are leading themselves today. I did have a chance to pick up 2 books from the library yesterday before I felt too ill -- one on unschooling by Mary Griffith, and one by John Holt, which I am devouring and already putting some of it into practice. The fact that I can barely talk above a whisper is a real blessing in that it's difficult to control things without a voice! LOL. So I'm grateful that I got sick. :) Maybe I will chronicle our day after the day is done, if anyone is interested. You can tell me if you think we're making progress or not and give me helpful hints and insights if you like.
Thanks again for all of your great insights. Pam, you hit the nail right on the head, I believe.
Jimi Ann
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> I think the self-government (and unruly) phrasing gives something away
> here, that the op might not be aware of. I think you're thinking of the
> daughter as BEING self-government and "ruly" - but, no, it is just her
> own nature to be quieter, less physical, more project-oriented, and
> therefore "easier." She isn't having to "govern" herself - she IS the
> way she is.
>
> So - you're really expecting something from the other kids that you are
> NOT expecting or seeing in her. You're expecting kids with tons of
> energy, very physical kids, to act like one who isn't like that by nature.
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/2/2009 9:02 AM, Jimi Ann wrote:
feels right to you! I'm always impressed with people who are willing
carry their beliefs to their logical conclusions.
Do not think of your own childhood as having anything at all to do with
unschooling. Sounds like the opposite. Unschooling requires tremendous
amounts of parental involvement. Without that, it really is not
unschooling. Thinking of your own childhood as having any kind of
unschooling nature will hold you back in getting to a strong
understanding of unschooling.
If you're craving structure and control, I have a couple of suggestions
for you, to help you get over that <G>. First, keep a journal or
private blog in which you write your own observations about your
children. Make it only for your own eyes, so that you don't have to put
any kind of public face on it. Observe what lights up your child's eyes.
Observe what seemed to frustrate him/her. Take note of how he goes about
getting what he wants. Look at how they interact with each other. Etc.
Think of this as being a scientist, out in the field, observing these
young creatures in their natural environment.
At the same time, try to support them in living as natural a life as
possible, for them. If you are observing that running and jumping seems
to be what they want - find ways to support running and jumping. When
you're writing in your journal on blog, jot down ideas of how you could
support their natural inclinations.
You might also need to consider whether or not your own religious
beliefs might interfere with this whole concept of supporting a child's
natural inclinations, though. I'm not asking you to tell us about them,
just suggesting that you might consider that one of the most basic
beliefs of unschoolers is that human beings are inherently "good" in
many ways. For some devout Christians, that flies in the face of their
belief that humans are born with a "sin nature."
-pam
> With my family's background, and the paths we've pursued in the past, we need a lot undoing. My childhood was pretty much in the unschooling way of things, as far as lots of freedom, no expectations, etc. But along with that came neglect and very little to no parental direction, as there were usually no adults in the home.Well, you're definitely searching, Jimi Ann, for a way to live that
>
feels right to you! I'm always impressed with people who are willing
carry their beliefs to their logical conclusions.
Do not think of your own childhood as having anything at all to do with
unschooling. Sounds like the opposite. Unschooling requires tremendous
amounts of parental involvement. Without that, it really is not
unschooling. Thinking of your own childhood as having any kind of
unschooling nature will hold you back in getting to a strong
understanding of unschooling.
If you're craving structure and control, I have a couple of suggestions
for you, to help you get over that <G>. First, keep a journal or
private blog in which you write your own observations about your
children. Make it only for your own eyes, so that you don't have to put
any kind of public face on it. Observe what lights up your child's eyes.
Observe what seemed to frustrate him/her. Take note of how he goes about
getting what he wants. Look at how they interact with each other. Etc.
Think of this as being a scientist, out in the field, observing these
young creatures in their natural environment.
At the same time, try to support them in living as natural a life as
possible, for them. If you are observing that running and jumping seems
to be what they want - find ways to support running and jumping. When
you're writing in your journal on blog, jot down ideas of how you could
support their natural inclinations.
You might also need to consider whether or not your own religious
beliefs might interfere with this whole concept of supporting a child's
natural inclinations, though. I'm not asking you to tell us about them,
just suggesting that you might consider that one of the most basic
beliefs of unschoolers is that human beings are inherently "good" in
many ways. For some devout Christians, that flies in the face of their
belief that humans are born with a "sin nature."
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=- I need to re-read a book I got several years ago called "Slowing
Down to the Speed of Life." I had forgotten about that.-=-
I was halfway through that book and really liking it, and I lost it.
Either I lost it in Minnesota, or in my office. Either way... I
might as well buy a new one. <g>
I'm glad you reminded me of it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Down to the Speed of Life." I had forgotten about that.-=-
I was halfway through that book and really liking it, and I lost it.
Either I lost it in Minnesota, or in my office. Either way... I
might as well buy a new one. <g>
I'm glad you reminded me of it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jimi Ann
Verna, your boys sound exactly like mine in this area. Thank you so much for sharing that -- it really is so encouraging when I hear that someone else can relate. :) My oldest boy has appointed himself captain as well! And, like yours, he likes things to be stirred up and loud, and for them, usually ends in someone getting hurt. He doesn't mean to be so rough, he's a very thoughtful boy, just doesn't know his own strength, especially with little ones.
Yes, a day out would be in order, weather permitting, that is. It's been raining, raining, raining, so I think tomorrow, if we're not too sick, we'll go to the hands-on Science Center in the next town. It's free on Fridays.
Yes, a day out would be in order, weather permitting, that is. It's been raining, raining, raining, so I think tomorrow, if we're not too sick, we'll go to the hands-on Science Center in the next town. It's free on Fridays.
--- In [email protected], "Verna" <lalow@...> wrote:
>
> I have days when this bothers me too. My oldest boy (7) likes things to be exciting. My children tend to run in a pack. Occasionally, finding something to do on their own but for the most part, everyone clamoring to be involved in whatever one has thought off. My oldest sees himself as their captain, and likes things to be stirred up and loud. He likes to make loud noises, throw things around and get everybody involved, run, play fight, etc.. My daughter joins right in.
> On days this seems to occur the most, seem to be the days a nice trip to the park, pool, gym etc.. are in order.
>
Jenny C
I'm not asking you to tell us about them,
and manipulate children. I don't know why it still surprises me that
this is so, I've heard the arguments and seen people behave like this so
many times, you'd think I'd stop being surprised by the meanness of
parents.
Even when people stop going to church, or having religious beliefs, they
still hold onto those patterns of behavior, with this misguided notion
that they must create children that are responsible. That only by the
force of punishment, control, spanking, and manipulating can a child be
changed for the better and grow up to be good, responsible, and
successful.
It flies in the face of all logical reasoning about the way in which
humans behave and react to those things, and kids are no exceptions.
Somehow, children are seen as inferior beings, somehow different than
adults, so different that these things are surely ok to do to children,
and yet, all children grow up to be adults, still the same person they
were when they were born, but older, and acting and reacting to
everything that has happened to them or by them since that moment of
birth.
Behind every injured child, is an injured adult, that most likely, was
injured in just the same way.
> just suggesting that you might consider that one of the most basicThat sort of thinking is the excuse many use to punish, control, spank,
> beliefs of unschoolers is that human beings are inherently "good" in
> many ways. For some devout Christians, that flies in the face of their
> belief that humans are born with a "sin nature."
>
and manipulate children. I don't know why it still surprises me that
this is so, I've heard the arguments and seen people behave like this so
many times, you'd think I'd stop being surprised by the meanness of
parents.
Even when people stop going to church, or having religious beliefs, they
still hold onto those patterns of behavior, with this misguided notion
that they must create children that are responsible. That only by the
force of punishment, control, spanking, and manipulating can a child be
changed for the better and grow up to be good, responsible, and
successful.
It flies in the face of all logical reasoning about the way in which
humans behave and react to those things, and kids are no exceptions.
Somehow, children are seen as inferior beings, somehow different than
adults, so different that these things are surely ok to do to children,
and yet, all children grow up to be adults, still the same person they
were when they were born, but older, and acting and reacting to
everything that has happened to them or by them since that moment of
birth.
Behind every injured child, is an injured adult, that most likely, was
injured in just the same way.
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/2/2009 11:37 AM, Jimi Ann wrote:
in children turn out to be spectacularly valuable in adults.
"Self-Appointed Captains" are often like that. Another word for it is
leadership ability - and, think about it, do you really want to squash that?
I had what people would call a bossy child. Yes, I needed to put a LOT
of attention and energy into helping her know how to channel that into
productive directions, how not to sort of bully other people (not
physically, but persuasively). Some of the ways this attribute has
helped her though - being "out there" - standing out - willing to step
forward and say, "I"ll do that." She's gotten jobs, she's gotten
unexpected honors - including college scholarships for leadership that
she didn't apply for and didn't even know existed. She was president of
her college student association - which was "Recreation and Leisure
Studies" a group made up almost entire of leader types! She was hired by
Grace Llewelyn a couple of times to work at Not Back to School Camp -
that was a great experience for her to really examine and develop her
leadership skills. She now directs a program that provides activities
and excursions for adults with developmental disabilities and that
involves being in charge of MANY other people - clients, employees,
interns, and volunteers.
Anyway - when she was 5 and ordering her younger and older cousins
around, she was bossy and sometimes annoying to them, but they STILL
turned to her as their leader because she was full of good ideas and her
ideas worked.
I think it is a good idea to change the way we see these characteristics
- at least recognize the value in them. I'm not saying it is a reason to
let one kid run roughshod over another, but by allowing and supporting
natural relationships that develop that do involve some kids taking on
leadership roles. Just - help them do it more nicely and help them think
about the interests of those they are leading.
Help your son, for example, feel like part of his "captain" job is to
consider the safety of his troops.
-pam
> My oldest boy has appointed himself captain as well! And, like yours, he likes things to be stirred up and loud, and for them, usually ends in someone getting hurt. He doesn't mean to be so rough, he's a very thoughtful boy, just doesn't know his own strength, especially with little ones.Sometimes the characteristics that seem sort of difficult or problematic
>
in children turn out to be spectacularly valuable in adults.
"Self-Appointed Captains" are often like that. Another word for it is
leadership ability - and, think about it, do you really want to squash that?
I had what people would call a bossy child. Yes, I needed to put a LOT
of attention and energy into helping her know how to channel that into
productive directions, how not to sort of bully other people (not
physically, but persuasively). Some of the ways this attribute has
helped her though - being "out there" - standing out - willing to step
forward and say, "I"ll do that." She's gotten jobs, she's gotten
unexpected honors - including college scholarships for leadership that
she didn't apply for and didn't even know existed. She was president of
her college student association - which was "Recreation and Leisure
Studies" a group made up almost entire of leader types! She was hired by
Grace Llewelyn a couple of times to work at Not Back to School Camp -
that was a great experience for her to really examine and develop her
leadership skills. She now directs a program that provides activities
and excursions for adults with developmental disabilities and that
involves being in charge of MANY other people - clients, employees,
interns, and volunteers.
Anyway - when she was 5 and ordering her younger and older cousins
around, she was bossy and sometimes annoying to them, but they STILL
turned to her as their leader because she was full of good ideas and her
ideas worked.
I think it is a good idea to change the way we see these characteristics
- at least recognize the value in them. I'm not saying it is a reason to
let one kid run roughshod over another, but by allowing and supporting
natural relationships that develop that do involve some kids taking on
leadership roles. Just - help them do it more nicely and help them think
about the interests of those they are leading.
Help your son, for example, feel like part of his "captain" job is to
consider the safety of his troops.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=I think it is a good idea to change the way we see these
characteristics
- at least recognize the value in them. I'm not saying it is a reason to
let one kid run roughshod over another, but by allowing and supporting
natural relationships that develop that do involve some kids taking on
leadership roles. Just - help them do it more nicely and help them think
about the interests of those they are leading.
-=-Help your son, for example, feel like part of his "captain" job is to
consider the safety of his troops.-=-
It can help to make the noisiest one in charge of keeping the noise
down sometimes (party situations or whatever). Longterm
responsibility isn't good or fair, but temporary "please make sure
everyone gets a napkin and a drink" or something can put
organizational skills to work.
Kirby could tend to hog a party when he was little so I would ask him
to do what he could to make sure the birthday kid was getting enough
attention and that everyone was being include. He could do that!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
characteristics
- at least recognize the value in them. I'm not saying it is a reason to
let one kid run roughshod over another, but by allowing and supporting
natural relationships that develop that do involve some kids taking on
leadership roles. Just - help them do it more nicely and help them think
about the interests of those they are leading.
-=-Help your son, for example, feel like part of his "captain" job is to
consider the safety of his troops.-=-
It can help to make the noisiest one in charge of keeping the noise
down sometimes (party situations or whatever). Longterm
responsibility isn't good or fair, but temporary "please make sure
everyone gets a napkin and a drink" or something can put
organizational skills to work.
Kirby could tend to hog a party when he was little so I would ask him
to do what he could to make sure the birthday kid was getting enough
attention and that everyone was being include. He could do that!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
i strongly agree with everything pam wrote - *i* was the "bossy and annoying" natural leader as a kid, and unfortunately i had nobody helping me figure out how to embrace those skills without squashing and offending others. my first time even *thinking about* or being aware of any need to balance was when my employer (i was the night manager of a cafe at age 15.5) asked me if i knew what "diplomacy" meant! lol.
it took me many years after that to learn the art of diplomacy, and gentle leadership. and i suffered from self image problems for a long time related to the feedback i got from peers - around being "bossy", "loud" etc. i could have really used more guidance!
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it took me many years after that to learn the art of diplomacy, and gentle leadership. and i suffered from self image problems for a long time related to the feedback i got from peers - around being "bossy", "loud" etc. i could have really used more guidance!
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It flies in the face of all logical reasoning about the way in which
humans behave and react to those things, and kids are no exceptions.
Somehow, children are seen as inferior beings, somehow different than
adults, so different that these things are surely ok to do to
children,-=-
Sometimes the adult believes, or says (not always both) that he's
representing God when he hits or punishes or grounds or shames a child.
-=Behind every injured child, is an injured adult, that most likely, was
injured in just the same way.-=-
That's why it's good to see it as consciously and purposefully
departing from a generations-old pattern, or breaking a cycle.
Part of the desire to do it to others comes from the wounded child
still within. It's like hazing with fraternities or schools or
sports teams or whatever--tormenting new members, with the hope and
promise that those freshmen will be able to torment others in four
years.
I was spanked and yelled at, grounded, lied to, shamed. Somehow, I'm
grateful to say, I discovered other ways and decided it wasn't going
to help me or the world or God one bit to be a person who also DID
those things. I have done some of them. I had custody of three kids
at once when I was younger (21-23) and I was trying to figure it out
all of a sudden. I didn't lie, and I didn't ground, but I've yelled
and shamed and hit. Even my own kids, I've hit, when they were
little, and I couldn't figure out a better thing to do in the moment.
Luckily I found the company of people who knew more and had thought
more about it than I did and I used them as models for ways to be
better.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
humans behave and react to those things, and kids are no exceptions.
Somehow, children are seen as inferior beings, somehow different than
adults, so different that these things are surely ok to do to
children,-=-
Sometimes the adult believes, or says (not always both) that he's
representing God when he hits or punishes or grounds or shames a child.
-=Behind every injured child, is an injured adult, that most likely, was
injured in just the same way.-=-
That's why it's good to see it as consciously and purposefully
departing from a generations-old pattern, or breaking a cycle.
Part of the desire to do it to others comes from the wounded child
still within. It's like hazing with fraternities or schools or
sports teams or whatever--tormenting new members, with the hope and
promise that those freshmen will be able to torment others in four
years.
I was spanked and yelled at, grounded, lied to, shamed. Somehow, I'm
grateful to say, I discovered other ways and decided it wasn't going
to help me or the world or God one bit to be a person who also DID
those things. I have done some of them. I had custody of three kids
at once when I was younger (21-23) and I was trying to figure it out
all of a sudden. I didn't lie, and I didn't ground, but I've yelled
and shamed and hit. Even my own kids, I've hit, when they were
little, and I couldn't figure out a better thing to do in the moment.
Luckily I found the company of people who knew more and had thought
more about it than I did and I used them as models for ways to be
better.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jimi Ann
> That sort of thinking is the excuse many use to punish, control, spank,I hear what you're saying. I didn't have a religious upbringing at all, never went to church or started seeking spiritually until my late 20's (over 15 years ago). So my spiritual beliefs were sought out on my own as an adult. I didn't really have a basis or pre-conceived religious ideas, for where to start -- so I searched through many, many different paths over the years.
> and manipulate children. I don't know why it still surprises me that
> this is so, I've heard the arguments and seen people behave like this so
> many times, you'd think I'd stop being surprised by the meanness of
> parents.
>
> Even when people stop going to church, or having religious beliefs, they
> still hold onto those patterns of behavior, with this misguided notion
> that they must create children that are responsible.
I was rarely, if at all, punished growing up and never received a spanking. My sisters, on the other hand, did receive punishment in anger (as opposed to loving direction when needed -- which, by the way, I didn't receive either), and I can see the fear behind the heavy walls. I have fears too, of course, to a varying degree, but it's getting much better. I do believe that anger is one of the worst enemies, especially when directed toward a child. It can wear many masks. I have struggled with that, wearing the mask of frustration and impatience, and am working on this character defect. I believe that a lack of love and humility (selfishness) also breeds anger or frustration, to the person being selfish, I mean, in that his expected desires are not satisfied. We know how that spills over onto the children. (I read a saying in a fiction book once that said, "We teach best what we most need to learn!") :)
One thing I would respectfully question, though, is do you not think children should be responsible? Can we/should we raise responsible children, through example, and other avenues besides manipulation, punishment and control? (Any tips on this would be greatly appreciated!) A relevant question might be what is our definition of responsible. I'm sorry to be so long in my posts -- maybe I'll try to pare them down a bit. Jimi Ann
Jimi Ann
Yes, Pam, I agree. I often tell him he will be a great leader and God has something very great and wonderful in store for him, even now. Thanks for reminding me of that -- sometimes we forget and get off track. I need to think on that more often.
What a great perspective you shared about having him consider that as a captain for him to consider the safety of his troops. I'll do that. :)
What a great perspective you shared about having him consider that as a captain for him to consider the safety of his troops. I'll do that. :)
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-One thing I would respectfully question, though, is do you not
think children should be responsible?... A relevant question might be
what is our definition of responsible. -=-
Let's only use dictionary definitions here! The root of
"responsible" is "respond." Answer. Answerable to. When someone is
responsible, it means he's answerable to someone else for whatever it
is the "responsibility" is. If I'm responsible for the key to a
building, or the safety of my children, or responsible for taking care
of the money at the gate of an event, it means those are not MY keys/
building/lives/money, and I need to answer to others for the way I
took care of them.
So what should children be responsible for? (Not asking the question,
just saying that's what "responsible" means.
"Responsible" as a personal attribute is like "respectable" or
"honorable." It involves the potential for trust.
All of my kids have been house sitters. All of my kids, all of those
home owners and dog owners, and probably all of you here know some
people you would trust with your house, and some you would *not* trust
with your house. It's not a simple set of traits that make or break
"responsibility," though.
-=- Can we/should we raise responsible children, through example, and
other avenues besides manipulation, punishment and control? (Any tips
on this would be greatly appreciated!)-=-
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think children should be responsible?... A relevant question might be
what is our definition of responsible. -=-
Let's only use dictionary definitions here! The root of
"responsible" is "respond." Answer. Answerable to. When someone is
responsible, it means he's answerable to someone else for whatever it
is the "responsibility" is. If I'm responsible for the key to a
building, or the safety of my children, or responsible for taking care
of the money at the gate of an event, it means those are not MY keys/
building/lives/money, and I need to answer to others for the way I
took care of them.
So what should children be responsible for? (Not asking the question,
just saying that's what "responsible" means.
"Responsible" as a personal attribute is like "respectable" or
"honorable." It involves the potential for trust.
All of my kids have been house sitters. All of my kids, all of those
home owners and dog owners, and probably all of you here know some
people you would trust with your house, and some you would *not* trust
with your house. It's not a simple set of traits that make or break
"responsibility," though.
-=- Can we/should we raise responsible children, through example, and
other avenues besides manipulation, punishment and control? (Any tips
on this would be greatly appreciated!)-=-
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/2/2009 12:32 PM, Jimi Ann wrote:
possible. I have three "kids" - 18, 21, and 24. They are VERY
responsible young adults - incredibly so. Never punished or controlled
or manipulated through threats or bribes.
I'm on my way out the door and "What does responsible mean?" is too big
a question to answer in the 30 seconds I have available. But - good
question!
-pam
> One thing I would respectfully question, though, is do you not think children should be responsible?As responsible as they can be, yes.
> Can we/should we raise responsible children, through example, and other avenues besides manipulation, punishment and control?Absolutely. I have done it - so I can say that it is very definitely
possible. I have three "kids" - 18, 21, and 24. They are VERY
responsible young adults - incredibly so. Never punished or controlled
or manipulated through threats or bribes.
> (Any tips on this would be greatly appreciated!)Stick around! <G>
> A relevant question might be what is our definition of responsible. I'm sorry to be so long in my posts -- maybe I'll try to pare them down a bit. Jimi AnnYour posts are great, Jimi Ann. I'm enjoying them a lot.
>
I'm on my way out the door and "What does responsible mean?" is too big
a question to answer in the 30 seconds I have available. But - good
question!
-pam